Re: Cussing
Julia Swancy
S, I don't know if there is anything that can be
"done" to "get them to stop," besides something
authoritarian, but I recently read a comment about
cussing in Kurcinka's "kids, parents, and power
struggles" that struck me. I had been on the fence
about language before reading her explanation of it as
suppressing or stifling (I forget which word she used,
sorry!) emotions. I can have a pretty foul mouth
myself and can only thank my protective deities that
galen's worst so far are "dammit!" (always used
correctly, lol) and "butthead" (which I can't think of
when he heard that one, but it was probably me :S). I
realized that although it feels in the moment like a
release of tension, my verbal explosions really don't
express my needs and therefore block communication
that could actually improve my situation (seems
obvious now). this gave me an edge on motivating
myself to hold my foul tongue and instead try to
express my need, through tightly clenched teeth if
necessary. it's a process :)
so perhaps that explanation could help; it's wordy and
intellectual, so for too young of a child it's no
good; I don't remember what age child you were asking
about. for my 3 y.o. ds (almost 3.5 y.o.) I just say
"words like that can hurt people's feelings. if I say
that you can remind me that it's not ok" or something
similar. this may not be the best thing to say, but so
far it has always been something I know he learned
from me, so that's my best effort so far. I ignore as
much as I can, too. if he's playing by himself and
mutters dammit under his breath, there's no logic in a
mini-lecture (well, there may not ever be logic in any
lecture, but that's another topic) on how that could
bother someone-- he knows no one is around!
otoh, does it really matter? understanding what it is
you want stopped, and WHY, is probably very important
to the HOW. are we talking about strings of extreme
expletives in public? offending grandma/grandpa? or is
it only at home, but you're worried about the public?
or is it just your nerves that are rattled by it? who
is the modeler of foul language in your house, from
whom this has been learned? has that modeling stopped?
all this comes into play...
and congrats on c's arm movement!! I'm sure no amount
of praise you could have heaped on her could hold a
candle to how she felt about it! :D WOOHOO!!!
Julia
"done" to "get them to stop," besides something
authoritarian, but I recently read a comment about
cussing in Kurcinka's "kids, parents, and power
struggles" that struck me. I had been on the fence
about language before reading her explanation of it as
suppressing or stifling (I forget which word she used,
sorry!) emotions. I can have a pretty foul mouth
myself and can only thank my protective deities that
galen's worst so far are "dammit!" (always used
correctly, lol) and "butthead" (which I can't think of
when he heard that one, but it was probably me :S). I
realized that although it feels in the moment like a
release of tension, my verbal explosions really don't
express my needs and therefore block communication
that could actually improve my situation (seems
obvious now). this gave me an edge on motivating
myself to hold my foul tongue and instead try to
express my need, through tightly clenched teeth if
necessary. it's a process :)
so perhaps that explanation could help; it's wordy and
intellectual, so for too young of a child it's no
good; I don't remember what age child you were asking
about. for my 3 y.o. ds (almost 3.5 y.o.) I just say
"words like that can hurt people's feelings. if I say
that you can remind me that it's not ok" or something
similar. this may not be the best thing to say, but so
far it has always been something I know he learned
from me, so that's my best effort so far. I ignore as
much as I can, too. if he's playing by himself and
mutters dammit under his breath, there's no logic in a
mini-lecture (well, there may not ever be logic in any
lecture, but that's another topic) on how that could
bother someone-- he knows no one is around!
otoh, does it really matter? understanding what it is
you want stopped, and WHY, is probably very important
to the HOW. are we talking about strings of extreme
expletives in public? offending grandma/grandpa? or is
it only at home, but you're worried about the public?
or is it just your nerves that are rattled by it? who
is the modeler of foul language in your house, from
whom this has been learned? has that modeling stopped?
all this comes into play...
and congrats on c's arm movement!! I'm sure no amount
of praise you could have heaped on her could hold a
candle to how she felt about it! :D WOOHOO!!!
Julia
liannemargaret
I found that a simple explanation that swearing just gives some people
the excuse they want, to ignore or disqualify anything important you
have to say.
This along with overhearing a teen use f*** in every sentence uttered
was all it took for swearing to stop...
My guy has a driving need to be heard and understood.
Lianne
--- Julia Swancy <bleureves@...> wrote:
the excuse they want, to ignore or disqualify anything important you
have to say.
This along with overhearing a teen use f*** in every sentence uttered
was all it took for swearing to stop...
My guy has a driving need to be heard and understood.
Lianne
--- Julia Swancy <bleureves@...> wrote:
>
> S, I don't know if there is anything that can be
> "done" to "get them to stop," besides something
> authoritarian, <snip>
> Julia
>
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 28, 2006, at 4:57 AM, liannemargaret wrote:
words as just more of the hundreds of thousands of words they know
and use. There are lots of times when one level of language is more
appropriate than another. People talk to their grandmothers
differently than they talk to their friends while they're playing.
People might use a different tone and vocabulary to talk to the
neighbor than they would if they were sitting next to the governor at
dinner. Explaining physics to a four year old would take different
vocabulary than discussing it among physicists.
All that is a big part of the flexibility and beauty of language.
Principles over rules.
Sandra
> This along with overhearing a teen use f*** in every sentence utteredMy thought isn't that it should stop, but that they should see those
> was all it took for swearing to stop...
words as just more of the hundreds of thousands of words they know
and use. There are lots of times when one level of language is more
appropriate than another. People talk to their grandmothers
differently than they talk to their friends while they're playing.
People might use a different tone and vocabulary to talk to the
neighbor than they would if they were sitting next to the governor at
dinner. Explaining physics to a four year old would take different
vocabulary than discussing it among physicists.
All that is a big part of the flexibility and beauty of language.
Principles over rules.
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 28, 2006, at 6:13 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
other than in their own slangy vulgarity-filled way. They seem to
know that it probably isn't appropriate for speaking to their
economics professor, but they're nearly tongue-tied and the
vulgarities slip out in spite of their attempt to not do it.
I feel sorry for them - I guess either their parents must speak that
way too, all the time, or they talk to their parents so little that
the parents' influence is absent. It is a serious handicap.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> People talk to their grandmothersIf they can. I have a lot of students who can't seem speak at all
> differently than they talk to their friends while they're playing.
other than in their own slangy vulgarity-filled way. They seem to
know that it probably isn't appropriate for speaking to their
economics professor, but they're nearly tongue-tied and the
vulgarities slip out in spite of their attempt to not do it.
I feel sorry for them - I guess either their parents must speak that
way too, all the time, or they talk to their parents so little that
the parents' influence is absent. It is a serious handicap.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 28, 2006, at 11:40 AM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
I meant ideally, people who are being good and considerate with
language. With or without "bad words," there are different levels of
courtesy and formality. And those who CAN do that can also know when
and where which words are appropriate or not.
Simply having rules or training against "bad language" doesn't in
itself make someone courteous with language, as I should've said more
clearly and as your example showed.
Bad grammar can be a problem too. I'm working part time for an
attorney doing family law. I was asked to assess someone last week,
after a phone call, as to the odds of success of an interstate
custody move. A child was brought from another state to New Mexico
and was saying with high-class-family relatives. Law enforcement
would be likely to trust a long-established local family in a small
town over some young ex spouse from out of state. Aside from the
question of the relative power of legal documents from this state and
that, the question was whether it seemed worth it for them to drive
ten hours to pick her up if the local police weren't obligated to
assist them remove the child from that home.
My opinion wasn't the deciding factor, but it was one among some.
The mom's boyfriend had taken the phone away from here and inserted
his opinion. He sounded redneck/biker, hot-headed, expecting a
physical altercation (or seemed to be assuming or hoping for one) and
both his tone and his language useage were nervous-making. He would
have very negatively impressed the local police in the town in question.
It's just one more example for the general considerations. Even
without bad language, someone can make so bad an impression that
things (big things) won't go easily in his favor.
It's not a matter of a personal prejudice on my part, either. It
involved considerations of where the girl's father was, how connected
he was, how very reasonable his relatives were being, and how the
mom's team (she and the boyfriend) were coming across. The girl will
be back with her mom a few days or a week later than it might
otherwise have been. And honestly I have no idea whether that's what
the girl wants, poor thing. She might be happy where she is, but
it's not going to matter.
Unschooling aside, I wish people in general could be more considerate
and respectful and supportive of children. It is WONDERFUL for me to
have people like this list to read/hear to know that there are lots
of families where things are better than average (and sometimes
better than GREAT!)
Sandra
> > People talk to their grandmothersOh, you're right.
> > differently than they talk to their friends while they're playing.
>
> If they can
I meant ideally, people who are being good and considerate with
language. With or without "bad words," there are different levels of
courtesy and formality. And those who CAN do that can also know when
and where which words are appropriate or not.
Simply having rules or training against "bad language" doesn't in
itself make someone courteous with language, as I should've said more
clearly and as your example showed.
Bad grammar can be a problem too. I'm working part time for an
attorney doing family law. I was asked to assess someone last week,
after a phone call, as to the odds of success of an interstate
custody move. A child was brought from another state to New Mexico
and was saying with high-class-family relatives. Law enforcement
would be likely to trust a long-established local family in a small
town over some young ex spouse from out of state. Aside from the
question of the relative power of legal documents from this state and
that, the question was whether it seemed worth it for them to drive
ten hours to pick her up if the local police weren't obligated to
assist them remove the child from that home.
My opinion wasn't the deciding factor, but it was one among some.
The mom's boyfriend had taken the phone away from here and inserted
his opinion. He sounded redneck/biker, hot-headed, expecting a
physical altercation (or seemed to be assuming or hoping for one) and
both his tone and his language useage were nervous-making. He would
have very negatively impressed the local police in the town in question.
It's just one more example for the general considerations. Even
without bad language, someone can make so bad an impression that
things (big things) won't go easily in his favor.
It's not a matter of a personal prejudice on my part, either. It
involved considerations of where the girl's father was, how connected
he was, how very reasonable his relatives were being, and how the
mom's team (she and the boyfriend) were coming across. The girl will
be back with her mom a few days or a week later than it might
otherwise have been. And honestly I have no idea whether that's what
the girl wants, poor thing. She might be happy where she is, but
it's not going to matter.
Unschooling aside, I wish people in general could be more considerate
and respectful and supportive of children. It is WONDERFUL for me to
have people like this list to read/hear to know that there are lots
of families where things are better than average (and sometimes
better than GREAT!)
Sandra
Gold Standard
>>I have a lot of students who can't seem speak at allNot directed at this poster, but neither of those two scenarios are true
>>other than in their own slangy vulgarity-filled way.<snip>
>>I feel sorry for them - I guess either their parents must speak that
>>way too, all the time, or they talk to their parents so little that
>>the parents' influence is absent. It is a serious handicap.<<
here with us (parents speak that way all the time, or child talks so little
to the parents that their influence is absent) but my oldest still may be
thought of this way...handicapped by his "vulgarity-filled" language.
Because he looks fully like an adult too (he's only 17), he is often given
very dirty looks by people thinking he is vulgar or inappropriate
intentionally.
I've not seen him going for either of those when he gets on a swearing roll.
I feel bad for him too, though not because he is still figuring out the
social norms, but because he is so misunderstood and judged by many around
him. The people who don't negatively judge him at his age now, are few and
far between, but I'll tell you they are angels in society...people who TRULY
seek to understand and specifically hold back judgment, at least in the
moment.
And ds is slowly, slowly getting it. I just wish I could protect his soul
along the way. I'm not sure how helpful the looks of scorn were/are for
him...he usually did not know why people would get mad at him...it was much
more helpful for him to get information..."when you say the "f" word, it
makes me think you can't think of a more interesting way to say that"...or
"the "f" word bothers me, would you mind not using it around me? Thanks".
Gentler world, gentler people growing up in it.
Love these recent threads...
Jacki
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 29, 2006, at 12:19 AM, Gold Standard wrote:
that the rule prevents anything when the parents aren't there),
because they don't want to have to think or figure out or help a kid
figure out when it's okay and when it's not.
Can you maybe talk to him about it in historical terms, like WWII—
navy ships, locker rooms, pool halls, but few other places? And
that's part of the problem that came of women in the workplace,
honestly. Men were trained not to use that language in the presence
of women, and so they didn't want women invading their space.
Thinking of it in the context of "long ago" might keep him from
thinking it's about him, or something modern and particular to his
generation.
On the other hand, defending him as "only 17" doesn't seem right.
Sandra
> Because he looks fully like an adult too (he's only 17), he isThat might be why so many families have a flat rule against it (not
> often given
> very dirty looks by people thinking he is vulgar or inappropriate
> intentionally.
that the rule prevents anything when the parents aren't there),
because they don't want to have to think or figure out or help a kid
figure out when it's okay and when it's not.
Can you maybe talk to him about it in historical terms, like WWII—
navy ships, locker rooms, pool halls, but few other places? And
that's part of the problem that came of women in the workplace,
honestly. Men were trained not to use that language in the presence
of women, and so they didn't want women invading their space.
Thinking of it in the context of "long ago" might keep him from
thinking it's about him, or something modern and particular to his
generation.
On the other hand, defending him as "only 17" doesn't seem right.
Sandra
Gold Standard
> Because he looks fully like an adult too (he's only 17), he isYeah, it has been an interesting journey figuring this one out. On the one
> often given
> very dirty looks by people thinking he is vulgar or inappropriate
> intentionally.
>>That might be why so many families have a flat rule against it (not
>>that the rule prevents anything when the parents aren't there),
>>because they don't want to have to think or figure out or help a kid
>>figure out when it's okay and when it's not.<<
hand, we need to do whatever it takes to protect him from things that aren't
good for him, and sometimes straight out rules might do that. But it never
really made sense to do that with him. He has a strong need to understand
the reasons for things, certainly "rules" if we were to impose them, and if
the explanation doesn't make sense to him, it is almost impossible it seems
for him to follow the rule. Probably makes sense for a lot of us.
He has no problem following rules or principles that make sense to him so
your suggestion...
>>Can you maybe talk to him about it in historical terms, like WWII—is a great one that I'll share with him for sure.
>>navy ships, locker rooms, pool halls, but few other places?<<
And I know that he'll get it eventually...he's already much better with
"getting" this. Some thing just take him longer than most, mostly
socially-oriented things.
>>On the other hand, defending him as "only 17" doesn't seem right.<<Well, "only 17", autistic tendencies, and just not developmentally ready to
get it completely yet.
The age was just to show that he wasn't the 25 yo that he appears to
be...and the expectations around him sometimes do not match where he is
developmentally. It's just the reality of who and where he is right now, and
many people start to judge a little more harshly when they see a person who
looks to be a certain age and "should" know better.
Thanks,
Jacki
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 29, 2006, at 8:38 PM, Gold Standard wrote:
words and when not to, he should (for his own benefit) never use them
at all. It could keep him from getting a job (any particular
interview or try-out could be over if he can't speak courteously) and
could keep him from having friends. Even someone who might have
really liked him might decide not to bother to find out if he's
offensive early on.
Those are good, real, reasons about him that (if he can't figure them
out on his own) should probably be stated at some point.
-=-On the other hand, defending him as "only 17" doesn't seem right.<<
ready to
get it completely yet.-=-
Maybe that could be a case for a rule, then.
If I had a child who couldn't see well or couldn't hear cars coming,
I would discourage playing in the street or in the driveway MUCH more
strongly than I have with my three.
-=-The age was just to show that he wasn't the 25 yo that he appears to
be...and the expectations around him sometimes do not match where he is
developmentally. It's just the reality of who and where he is right
now, and
many people start to judge a little more harshly when they see a
person who
looks to be a certain age and "should" know better.-=-
I'm trying to compare it to not reading, but it's not working for
me. I don't mind that a kid doesn't read until he's a teen. Not
reading rarely negatively affects others within earshot.
Thinking of other analogies�drinking out of an open cup without
spilling, driving a car, riding a bike�if something is potentially
damaging to oneself or others, should we expect better of a 25 year
old than 17? If a 17 year old can't drive safely, he will lose his
license. If someone can't drink out of an open cup yet, I have cups
with lids and can stick a straw in it and not make any big deal about
that. If someone's not a competent bike rider, it's best to stay in
the yard or driveway or be on the street only when an adult is
running along or riding beside. Doesn't matter how old he is.
I went to a full-prize, first-day-opening of a movie, and the theatre
was 3/4 full or so, so there weren't any good quiet places to go. A
woman two seats over from me apparently had Tourette's and kept
saying two word things, full voice and louder, and it was very, very
distracting. It probably wasn't any better for her to be doing that
in such a full theater than if I had kept shining a light every few
minutes or honking a horn or something.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And I know that he'll get it eventually...he's already much betterMaybe you could tell him that if he doesn't know when to use bad
> with
> "getting" this. Some thing just take him longer than most, mostly
> socially-oriented things.
words and when not to, he should (for his own benefit) never use them
at all. It could keep him from getting a job (any particular
interview or try-out could be over if he can't speak courteously) and
could keep him from having friends. Even someone who might have
really liked him might decide not to bother to find out if he's
offensive early on.
Those are good, real, reasons about him that (if he can't figure them
out on his own) should probably be stated at some point.
-=-On the other hand, defending him as "only 17" doesn't seem right.<<
>>-=-Well, "only 17", autistic tendencies, and just not developmentally
ready to
get it completely yet.-=-
Maybe that could be a case for a rule, then.
If I had a child who couldn't see well or couldn't hear cars coming,
I would discourage playing in the street or in the driveway MUCH more
strongly than I have with my three.
-=-The age was just to show that he wasn't the 25 yo that he appears to
be...and the expectations around him sometimes do not match where he is
developmentally. It's just the reality of who and where he is right
now, and
many people start to judge a little more harshly when they see a
person who
looks to be a certain age and "should" know better.-=-
I'm trying to compare it to not reading, but it's not working for
me. I don't mind that a kid doesn't read until he's a teen. Not
reading rarely negatively affects others within earshot.
Thinking of other analogies�drinking out of an open cup without
spilling, driving a car, riding a bike�if something is potentially
damaging to oneself or others, should we expect better of a 25 year
old than 17? If a 17 year old can't drive safely, he will lose his
license. If someone can't drink out of an open cup yet, I have cups
with lids and can stick a straw in it and not make any big deal about
that. If someone's not a competent bike rider, it's best to stay in
the yard or driveway or be on the street only when an adult is
running along or riding beside. Doesn't matter how old he is.
I went to a full-prize, first-day-opening of a movie, and the theatre
was 3/4 full or so, so there weren't any good quiet places to go. A
woman two seats over from me apparently had Tourette's and kept
saying two word things, full voice and louder, and it was very, very
distracting. It probably wasn't any better for her to be doing that
in such a full theater than if I had kept shining a light every few
minutes or honking a horn or something.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
Well these are certainly interesting thoughts Sandra. Thank you.
Ds KNOWS there are people's sensitivities to certain words, but because it
makes no sense to him that people would get offended about a word,
especially if the word was not used against anyone (he doesn't swear AT
people), he doesn't quite get it. Yet.
It may seem like an arrogance thing but it really isn't. It is purely a
logic thing. He proceeds with logic and has had to kindof learn
intuitiveness with people, and ability to read body language and such. But
its coming.
not to swear during an interview, or when around children, so he really is
getting it, over time. Just not all the time in public yet.
That's for dang sure :o)
At his age now, I could no better tell him what words to choose and what not
to choose than I could what to think. Or maybe it is that I don't want
to...don't think it is right, or what is best.
I DO tell him what works for people in general and what doesn't. In many
different ways, including ds having the experience itself of people's
response around him. He's slowing getting it.
don't think too much, really. If anything, it is more an inconvenience to
how they have their preferences set.
And how can we know how each person's preferences are set? Some people are
fine with freedom of speech, some aren't. I'm not ready to force conformity
to some people's preferences. But I am fully prepared to continue to give
the true information of the matter...that some people don't like cussing.
And that some people see cussing as a "dumbed down" way to talk.
What is important, imho, is if a person IS offended, they ask for it to
stop. And if a person is asked to stop, they should stop. Ds stops in a
heartbeat.
This issue IS like the person who starts reading at a later age imo...that's
when they're ready. Even though ds LOOKS old enough to have his language
always socially appropriate, he doesn't yet. I can't push the river, I need
to take it just like I took reading, toileting, etc...lots of modeling, lots
of information, even limits sometimes (you can't swear AT people, or hit
them, or put them down). Most of his behavior is completely respectful, he
just doesn't see why people should be offended if he is talking to someone
in public that isn't offended by swearing, and the bystander gets offended.
Frankly, I'm not quite sure myself either. Maybe THAT is the problem :o)
And he usually does figure out if the actual person he is talking to will be
okay with it. My mother moved in with us a few months ago, and I watched ds
ease into occasional swearing with her. She has been fine with it. If she
said to stop, he would have stopped.
DS has had to fully immerse himself in this freedom of speech to be where he
is now...inching toward balance. Putting a limit on things with him has
usually caused an intensified reaction like that of the dangling carrot. He
would have anxiety, maybe even an obsession, about doing it if he was not
allowed to do it. He has had to do it to figure it out...have experience
with it.
watching the movie who paid money...on the other hand, the poor woman who
would never get to go to a movie because of her condition.
Maybe she could start a group of people like her to have a the theatre to
themselves a couple times a month...like they have showings where you can
bring your little ones in the theatre. Everyone agrees to the chaos in
advance.
This is definitely an example of a person who has a condition that doesn't
fit social norms. Been working on that one for many years :o)
And one lesson I've learned big time in this lifetime thus far is to hold my
own judgment, to be thankful for what I've got and the problems that I
don't, and to be compassionate to the people around me who have struggles,
even annoying ones. If I was in that movie theatre, I would be likely to be
thinking, "Is it more important that I hear every word during this movie, or
is it more important I support this person who obviously has hellishness in
her life way more than I will ever know."
Though another option would be to get my money back and go another time,
since there weren't seats further away to move to. Then we both win.
Jacki
Ds KNOWS there are people's sensitivities to certain words, but because it
makes no sense to him that people would get offended about a word,
especially if the word was not used against anyone (he doesn't swear AT
people), he doesn't quite get it. Yet.
It may seem like an arrogance thing but it really isn't. It is purely a
logic thing. He proceeds with logic and has had to kindof learn
intuitiveness with people, and ability to read body language and such. But
its coming.
>>Maybe you could tell him that if he doesn't know when to use badHe has the information that not many jobs would allow swearing, and he knows
>>words and when not to, he should (for his own benefit) never use them
>>at all.<<
not to swear during an interview, or when around children, so he really is
getting it, over time. Just not all the time in public yet.
>>Maybe that could be a case for a rule, then.Oh he has had things told to him MUCH more strongly than my other three.
>>If I had a child who couldn't see well or couldn't hear cars coming,
>>I would discourage playing in the street or in the driveway MUCH more
>>strongly than I have with my three.<<
That's for dang sure :o)
At his age now, I could no better tell him what words to choose and what not
to choose than I could what to think. Or maybe it is that I don't want
to...don't think it is right, or what is best.
I DO tell him what works for people in general and what doesn't. In many
different ways, including ds having the experience itself of people's
response around him. He's slowing getting it.
>>I'm trying to compare it to not reading, but it's not working forI think that is a very apt comparison.
>>me.<<
>>I don't mind that a kid doesn't read until he's a teen. NotJust how negatively can words spoken to other people effect a bystander? I
>>reading rarely negatively affects others within earshot.<<
don't think too much, really. If anything, it is more an inconvenience to
how they have their preferences set.
And how can we know how each person's preferences are set? Some people are
fine with freedom of speech, some aren't. I'm not ready to force conformity
to some people's preferences. But I am fully prepared to continue to give
the true information of the matter...that some people don't like cussing.
And that some people see cussing as a "dumbed down" way to talk.
What is important, imho, is if a person IS offended, they ask for it to
stop. And if a person is asked to stop, they should stop. Ds stops in a
heartbeat.
This issue IS like the person who starts reading at a later age imo...that's
when they're ready. Even though ds LOOKS old enough to have his language
always socially appropriate, he doesn't yet. I can't push the river, I need
to take it just like I took reading, toileting, etc...lots of modeling, lots
of information, even limits sometimes (you can't swear AT people, or hit
them, or put them down). Most of his behavior is completely respectful, he
just doesn't see why people should be offended if he is talking to someone
in public that isn't offended by swearing, and the bystander gets offended.
Frankly, I'm not quite sure myself either. Maybe THAT is the problem :o)
And he usually does figure out if the actual person he is talking to will be
okay with it. My mother moved in with us a few months ago, and I watched ds
ease into occasional swearing with her. She has been fine with it. If she
said to stop, he would have stopped.
DS has had to fully immerse himself in this freedom of speech to be where he
is now...inching toward balance. Putting a limit on things with him has
usually caused an intensified reaction like that of the dangling carrot. He
would have anxiety, maybe even an obsession, about doing it if he was not
allowed to do it. He has had to do it to figure it out...have experience
with it.
>>AThat Tourettes case is a tough one...on the one hand, the poor people
>>woman two seats over from me apparently had Tourette's and kept
>>saying two word things, full voice and louder, and it was very, very
>>distracting.<<
watching the movie who paid money...on the other hand, the poor woman who
would never get to go to a movie because of her condition.
Maybe she could start a group of people like her to have a the theatre to
themselves a couple times a month...like they have showings where you can
bring your little ones in the theatre. Everyone agrees to the chaos in
advance.
This is definitely an example of a person who has a condition that doesn't
fit social norms. Been working on that one for many years :o)
And one lesson I've learned big time in this lifetime thus far is to hold my
own judgment, to be thankful for what I've got and the problems that I
don't, and to be compassionate to the people around me who have struggles,
even annoying ones. If I was in that movie theatre, I would be likely to be
thinking, "Is it more important that I hear every word during this movie, or
is it more important I support this person who obviously has hellishness in
her life way more than I will ever know."
Though another option would be to get my money back and go another time,
since there weren't seats further away to move to. Then we both win.
Jacki
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 30, 2006, at 2:09 AM, Gold Standard wrote:
If a child can carry a water gun around without squirting it at
inappropriate times, then it makes sense to let him carry it. If he
keeps squirting people in public, at inappropriate times, squirting
their books and papers, squirting drivers while they're driving, what
kind of mom would say "No problem, let me refill that for you?"
If someone makes a rule of never saying no, that's as extreme as
always saying no.
Sometimes the answer is "no" or "stop," even for spouses and best
friends and guests in the home.
-=-Just how negatively can words spoken to other people effect a
bystander? I
don't think too much, really. If anything, it is more an
inconvenience to
how they have their preferences set.-=-
When we hear parents threaten to spank kids, that affects us. When
we heard our neighbor across the back wall (a teen) yelling at his
younger brother, who was yelling back, it affected us. Not as
negatively as it affected the younger brother, but it was negativity
and meanness and harshness that floated into our yard.
People at a restaurant talking about puke or crap certainly affect
people negatively, if they're trying to eat.
Not reading doesn't make noise five or fifty feet away. It rarely
disturbs the peace of others.
-=-What is important, imho, is if a person IS offended, they ask for
it to
stop. And if a person is asked to stop, they should stop. Ds stops in a
heartbeat.-=-
Why can't he stop the heartbeat before that then, working on the
assumption that until he knows that language is welcome, he might
assume it's not?
-=-Even though ds LOOKS old enough to have his language
always socially appropriate, he doesn't yet.-=-
If it's part of a larger set of assumptions and principles that
someone shouldn't use a tool unsafely or discourteously, then an
eight or ten year old can be counselled about not using
"motherfucker" outside of a known safe area. Or if the child isn't
ready for one reason or another, to use it safely, he shouldn't be
allowed or encouraged to use it. If parents condone it
unconditionally, they've contributed to the discomfort of others, it
seems to me.
-=-If she
said to stop, he would have stopped.-=-
I don't want to have to ask people to stop doing things they
shouldn't have been doing in the first place. I'm sure if someone
was throwing trash on my table at a restaurant and I asked them to
stop they would, but why would they have thought it was okay to
invade my space in the first place? There is aural space too.
-=-That Tourettes case is a tough one...on the one hand, the poor people
watching the movie who paid money...on the other hand, the poor woman
who
would never get to go to a movie because of her condition.-=-
It's not a one hand or the other. There are less crowded showings
than late afternoon on the Friday it opened.
-=-If I was in that movie theatre, I would be likely to be
thinking, "Is it more important that I hear every word during this
movie, or
is it more important I support this person who obviously has
hellishness in
her life way more than I will ever know."
-=-
I didn't move away. I wasn't "supporting" her, though, I was being
inconvenienced by her (as were many other people). It wasn't the
best of situations. I felt sorry for her, and she had a 12ish child
with her who seemed used to it and not embarrassed.
-=-Though another option would be to get my money back and go another
time,
since there weren't seats further away to move to. Then we both win.-=-
That wouldn't have been a win for me. We drove quite a way, and it
was a special thing Holly had wanted, and Keith and I were both
there. And I wouldn't want to theater to be discouraging her from
going. She just might have chosen better when to go and where to sit.
My point is that strangers shouldn't have to ask a person to learn
how to be in public.
Sandra
> At his age now, I could no better tell him what words to choose andBut others here with younger kids might want to consider it.
> what not
> to choose than I could what to think. Or maybe it is that I don't want
> to...don't think it is right, or what is best.
If a child can carry a water gun around without squirting it at
inappropriate times, then it makes sense to let him carry it. If he
keeps squirting people in public, at inappropriate times, squirting
their books and papers, squirting drivers while they're driving, what
kind of mom would say "No problem, let me refill that for you?"
If someone makes a rule of never saying no, that's as extreme as
always saying no.
Sometimes the answer is "no" or "stop," even for spouses and best
friends and guests in the home.
-=-Just how negatively can words spoken to other people effect a
bystander? I
don't think too much, really. If anything, it is more an
inconvenience to
how they have their preferences set.-=-
When we hear parents threaten to spank kids, that affects us. When
we heard our neighbor across the back wall (a teen) yelling at his
younger brother, who was yelling back, it affected us. Not as
negatively as it affected the younger brother, but it was negativity
and meanness and harshness that floated into our yard.
People at a restaurant talking about puke or crap certainly affect
people negatively, if they're trying to eat.
Not reading doesn't make noise five or fifty feet away. It rarely
disturbs the peace of others.
-=-What is important, imho, is if a person IS offended, they ask for
it to
stop. And if a person is asked to stop, they should stop. Ds stops in a
heartbeat.-=-
Why can't he stop the heartbeat before that then, working on the
assumption that until he knows that language is welcome, he might
assume it's not?
-=-Even though ds LOOKS old enough to have his language
always socially appropriate, he doesn't yet.-=-
If it's part of a larger set of assumptions and principles that
someone shouldn't use a tool unsafely or discourteously, then an
eight or ten year old can be counselled about not using
"motherfucker" outside of a known safe area. Or if the child isn't
ready for one reason or another, to use it safely, he shouldn't be
allowed or encouraged to use it. If parents condone it
unconditionally, they've contributed to the discomfort of others, it
seems to me.
-=-If she
said to stop, he would have stopped.-=-
I don't want to have to ask people to stop doing things they
shouldn't have been doing in the first place. I'm sure if someone
was throwing trash on my table at a restaurant and I asked them to
stop they would, but why would they have thought it was okay to
invade my space in the first place? There is aural space too.
-=-That Tourettes case is a tough one...on the one hand, the poor people
watching the movie who paid money...on the other hand, the poor woman
who
would never get to go to a movie because of her condition.-=-
It's not a one hand or the other. There are less crowded showings
than late afternoon on the Friday it opened.
-=-If I was in that movie theatre, I would be likely to be
thinking, "Is it more important that I hear every word during this
movie, or
is it more important I support this person who obviously has
hellishness in
her life way more than I will ever know."
-=-
I didn't move away. I wasn't "supporting" her, though, I was being
inconvenienced by her (as were many other people). It wasn't the
best of situations. I felt sorry for her, and she had a 12ish child
with her who seemed used to it and not embarrassed.
-=-Though another option would be to get my money back and go another
time,
since there weren't seats further away to move to. Then we both win.-=-
That wouldn't have been a win for me. We drove quite a way, and it
was a special thing Holly had wanted, and Keith and I were both
there. And I wouldn't want to theater to be discouraging her from
going. She just might have chosen better when to go and where to sit.
My point is that strangers shouldn't have to ask a person to learn
how to be in public.
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 30, 2006, at 1:09 AM, Gold Standard wrote:
want to do it. You are saying that he doesn't see the reason not to
swear - and just being told that it offends other people isn't enough
reason for him.
The students I was talking about are different - they can't do it,
can't stop themselves. They have so little contact with anybody other
than their friends who all talk the same way, that they can't help it
even when they think it is inappropriate. They just sort of start
talking and stuff comes out and they're embarrassed and they clam up.
It is a handicap that keeps them from engaging with adults. It isn't
ME being judgmental that is the problem - I smile and nod and respond
no matter how they talk - it isn't that "I" care how they talk, it is
that they don't feel comfortable about it and their own discomfort
shuts them down.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He has the information that not many jobs would allow swearing, andBut apparently he can choose not to swear, if he decides he doesn't
> he knows
> not to swear during an interview, or when around children, so he
> really is
> getting it, over time. Just not all the time in public yet.
want to do it. You are saying that he doesn't see the reason not to
swear - and just being told that it offends other people isn't enough
reason for him.
The students I was talking about are different - they can't do it,
can't stop themselves. They have so little contact with anybody other
than their friends who all talk the same way, that they can't help it
even when they think it is inappropriate. They just sort of start
talking and stuff comes out and they're embarrassed and they clam up.
It is a handicap that keeps them from engaging with adults. It isn't
ME being judgmental that is the problem - I smile and nod and respond
no matter how they talk - it isn't that "I" care how they talk, it is
that they don't feel comfortable about it and their own discomfort
shuts them down.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>It isn'tOi, Pam, I'm sorry if it sounded like I was implying that. I wasn't thinking
>>ME being judgmental that is the problem <<
at all about you (I imagine you only as gracious and supportive).
The post sparked the experience that we are currently having with my guy and
this issue...there is sometimes an automatic reaction to him...not just if
he swears, but sometimes his responses are blunt ("Did you like that?" about
someone's performance..."No."), or lack of eye contact or lack of response
at all. It's not that he hasn't been "trained" well enough, god knows that
we've walked a refined line figuring out how much structure is needed when
and where. It's just where he is right now.
And as a mother having seen the pain he's experienced because of his
eccentricities and intense health problems, I continue to have the wish for
more understanding and compassion in the world.
And yet I understand the idea that it is our duty to not let our children be
nuisances in public...we always kept this in check as ds's parents. It is
just most difficult now that he is reaching adulthood and the influence of
parenting is less and the world is more.
Jacki
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 30, 2006, at 10:08 PM, Gold Standard wrote:
family likes him and we frequently invite him to hang out with us and
go places with us. He is also very blunt and sometimes hurts people's
feelings. Or he responds in monosyllables with no expression. He once
told one of my daughters that he didn't like her. I was shocked and
she was hurt - but, later, when we were alone, I asked him, "What did
you mean when you said you don't like Roxana?" He said, "Well, I
meant I don't like her." "Huh, why not?" "I don't know her well
enough to really like her, yet." (True - Roxana hadn't been around
him much AND she's very reserved around people she doesn't know
well.) I asked him, "Do you dislike her for some reason? Is there
something you don't like about her?" He was honestly surprised and
said, "Of course not. I don't know her well enough to like her, yet,
that's all."
I told him that Roxana's feelings had been hurt. He said, "But they
shouldn't have been." I said, "When it comes to feelings, it doesn't
matter what "should" be, it isn't a matter of logic." He said, "I
don't understand that." I said, "I know you don't - that's why I'm
talking about it right now, to help you understand it, because I
really like you and want you to hang around with us, but if you hurt
one of my kids' feelings, it won't work." HE said, "I know you guys
like me, but I don't know why. I'm not that likable." I told him that
it was kind of hard to say why people like other people - that it is
made up of so many variables, but that one of the things I know my
family really liked about him was his enthusiasm for learning new
things and that he was fun to have around because he openly enjoyed
things. He asked, "Why would she care if I like her or not?" I said,
"Hmmm, good question." And I was hard-pressed to answer it in a way
that made sense to him.
After more discussion, I finally told him that Roxana is sensitive,
already, about thinking people don't like her, so, if he wanted to
hang out with our family a lot, I'd appreciate it if he'd be a little
conscious of not saying negative things to her. And I told him that
I'd tell her what he'd meant when he'd said he didn't like her.
So - for the next couple of months - he was so careful that he barely
would speak when Rox was around. Poor guy. Over time, however,
they've gotten to know each other and now they both like each other
and are comfortable with each other.
Su -- there are people who will LIKE your son for his bluntness.
Others will find it uncomfortable. That's probably going to continue
for his whole life. What he might need is for you to be even more
clear with him about the consequences of more clearly inappropriate
behaviors - like swearing in places or in front of people where it is
clearly not acceptable. Are there times you don't go places because
of it? Maybe make more sure he knows he's limiting his experiences.
That is the logical reason for not doing it.
Anyway - I'm thinking that it doesn't do any good to complain that
others are noticing his inappropriate behaviors and being judgmental
about it - as true as it is, it IS how things are always going to be.
So that's just part of the information that he needs to learn to
process, right? As his mom, you probably want to pinch people's
pointy little heads off, when they glare at him. You want to say, "He
is LEARNING, give him a break!"
But - you might think of those people as your aides - if you help him
see how he is affecting other people (those who glare or move away,
etc.), then he has the information he needs to decide how he wants to
come across, even to strangers.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The post sparked the experience that we are currently having withI have a young friend, he is 17, who is as you describe. My whole
> my guy and
> this issue...there is sometimes an automatic reaction to him...not
> just if
> he swears, but sometimes his responses are blunt ("Did you like
> that?" about
> someone's performance..."No."), or lack of eye contact or lack of
> response
> at all. It's not that he hasn't been "trained" well enough, god
> knows that
> we've walked a refined line figuring out how much structure is
> needed when
> and where. It's just where he is right now.
family likes him and we frequently invite him to hang out with us and
go places with us. He is also very blunt and sometimes hurts people's
feelings. Or he responds in monosyllables with no expression. He once
told one of my daughters that he didn't like her. I was shocked and
she was hurt - but, later, when we were alone, I asked him, "What did
you mean when you said you don't like Roxana?" He said, "Well, I
meant I don't like her." "Huh, why not?" "I don't know her well
enough to really like her, yet." (True - Roxana hadn't been around
him much AND she's very reserved around people she doesn't know
well.) I asked him, "Do you dislike her for some reason? Is there
something you don't like about her?" He was honestly surprised and
said, "Of course not. I don't know her well enough to like her, yet,
that's all."
I told him that Roxana's feelings had been hurt. He said, "But they
shouldn't have been." I said, "When it comes to feelings, it doesn't
matter what "should" be, it isn't a matter of logic." He said, "I
don't understand that." I said, "I know you don't - that's why I'm
talking about it right now, to help you understand it, because I
really like you and want you to hang around with us, but if you hurt
one of my kids' feelings, it won't work." HE said, "I know you guys
like me, but I don't know why. I'm not that likable." I told him that
it was kind of hard to say why people like other people - that it is
made up of so many variables, but that one of the things I know my
family really liked about him was his enthusiasm for learning new
things and that he was fun to have around because he openly enjoyed
things. He asked, "Why would she care if I like her or not?" I said,
"Hmmm, good question." And I was hard-pressed to answer it in a way
that made sense to him.
After more discussion, I finally told him that Roxana is sensitive,
already, about thinking people don't like her, so, if he wanted to
hang out with our family a lot, I'd appreciate it if he'd be a little
conscious of not saying negative things to her. And I told him that
I'd tell her what he'd meant when he'd said he didn't like her.
So - for the next couple of months - he was so careful that he barely
would speak when Rox was around. Poor guy. Over time, however,
they've gotten to know each other and now they both like each other
and are comfortable with each other.
Su -- there are people who will LIKE your son for his bluntness.
Others will find it uncomfortable. That's probably going to continue
for his whole life. What he might need is for you to be even more
clear with him about the consequences of more clearly inappropriate
behaviors - like swearing in places or in front of people where it is
clearly not acceptable. Are there times you don't go places because
of it? Maybe make more sure he knows he's limiting his experiences.
That is the logical reason for not doing it.
Anyway - I'm thinking that it doesn't do any good to complain that
others are noticing his inappropriate behaviors and being judgmental
about it - as true as it is, it IS how things are always going to be.
So that's just part of the information that he needs to learn to
process, right? As his mom, you probably want to pinch people's
pointy little heads off, when they glare at him. You want to say, "He
is LEARNING, give him a break!"
But - you might think of those people as your aides - if you help him
see how he is affecting other people (those who glare or move away,
etc.), then he has the information he needs to decide how he wants to
come across, even to strangers.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
Thanks for sharing that wonderful interchange with your friend Pam. That is
like many conversations we have here. Each one seems to help build that
knowledge base a little bigger and stronger. I bet you are a very
appreciated person in this fellow's life.
After all, he is a really likeable dude. Very funny in unique ways, stand-up
improv is his forte', he is loyal to people and has a very sweet heart. He
chose to go to an art school this year, and many people there put him on a
pedestal...("so unfettered, unedited"). This is the first year that he has
been in a circle such as this...they so appreciate his artwork, his insight,
his writings.
He has his first set of *real* friends too, ones who get him, appreciate
him, really like him. And they guide him when he's off...too blunt, or too
crass. They'll say, "Hey, that was too much!" He goes out with them
independently, and they play music together on campus sidewalks, and once
took the bus to the airport so they could record the planes taking off and
landing in the background while they played music. He's really experiencing
a freedom with friends that is new and exciting, and he is engaging in the
intense creativity that he has had his whole life, only with other people
now.
behaviors - like swearing in places or in front of people where it is
clearly not acceptable. <<
I appreciate this advice. I think we've been clear as ice on this...can't
think of a way to be clearer.
Just to clarify, he doesn't do this when he is out with me, it is mostly
when he is out with his friends, or by himself...both things are new to him,
and he's learning another set of life lessons...ones that I don't have so
much control over. But the environment and the people in it are his primary
teachers right now.
he agrees not to. Depending on how much he'd want to go there, he will agree
or not go. I personally don't care about swearing, and would feel
hypocritical if I told him he could not swear around me. We have tried that
in exercise though, to practice carefully choosing his words, not
swearing...he CAN do it.
I don't know of a way to "make more sure he knows" he is limiting his
experiences... I continue the dialogue, the processing, the pointing out
what happened because of this or that, why it happened, how it could be
better next time. It is what we do regularly. I've learned that he will be
sure to know something when it's right for him, and I do what I can to get
him there.
The other part to this statement "he's limiting his experiences" is a pretty
complex idea, that without him feeling like his experience is limited, I'm
not sure he would even believe it. *I* may think he is limiting his
experiences, but his actual experience may be perfectly fine for him right
now.
and thank you for pointing this out to me. This list is certainly not the
place to blather about wrongs done to my son, or the pain involved in
navigating with this personality type in the world. So sorry. Thanks for
pointing it out...I didn't see it before.
People as aids in this process is a wonderful way to think about it too.
Thanks for that. It is the people who have given us so much to talk about
and process.
Thanks for your response!
Jacki
like many conversations we have here. Each one seems to help build that
knowledge base a little bigger and stronger. I bet you are a very
appreciated person in this fellow's life.
>>Su -- there are people who will LIKE your son for his bluntness.<<Oh yeah, no doubt. LOTS of people like him...some are SO delighted with him.
After all, he is a really likeable dude. Very funny in unique ways, stand-up
improv is his forte', he is loyal to people and has a very sweet heart. He
chose to go to an art school this year, and many people there put him on a
pedestal...("so unfettered, unedited"). This is the first year that he has
been in a circle such as this...they so appreciate his artwork, his insight,
his writings.
He has his first set of *real* friends too, ones who get him, appreciate
him, really like him. And they guide him when he's off...too blunt, or too
crass. They'll say, "Hey, that was too much!" He goes out with them
independently, and they play music together on campus sidewalks, and once
took the bus to the airport so they could record the planes taking off and
landing in the background while they played music. He's really experiencing
a freedom with friends that is new and exciting, and he is engaging in the
intense creativity that he has had his whole life, only with other people
now.
>>What he might need is for you to be even moreclear with him about the consequences of more clearly inappropriate
behaviors - like swearing in places or in front of people where it is
clearly not acceptable. <<
I appreciate this advice. I think we've been clear as ice on this...can't
think of a way to be clearer.
Just to clarify, he doesn't do this when he is out with me, it is mostly
when he is out with his friends, or by himself...both things are new to him,
and he's learning another set of life lessons...ones that I don't have so
much control over. But the environment and the people in it are his primary
teachers right now.
>>Are there times you don't go places becauseOh, I will absolutely not take him places where swearing won't work unless
>>of it? Maybe make more sure he knows he's limiting his experiences.
>>That is the logical reason for not doing it.<<
he agrees not to. Depending on how much he'd want to go there, he will agree
or not go. I personally don't care about swearing, and would feel
hypocritical if I told him he could not swear around me. We have tried that
in exercise though, to practice carefully choosing his words, not
swearing...he CAN do it.
I don't know of a way to "make more sure he knows" he is limiting his
experiences... I continue the dialogue, the processing, the pointing out
what happened because of this or that, why it happened, how it could be
better next time. It is what we do regularly. I've learned that he will be
sure to know something when it's right for him, and I do what I can to get
him there.
The other part to this statement "he's limiting his experiences" is a pretty
complex idea, that without him feeling like his experience is limited, I'm
not sure he would even believe it. *I* may think he is limiting his
experiences, but his actual experience may be perfectly fine for him right
now.
>>Anyway - I'm thinking that it doesn't do any good to complain thatHA! It did me a world of good! (kidding, kidding). You're very right Pam,
>>others are noticing his inappropriate behaviors and being judgmental
>>about it<<
and thank you for pointing this out to me. This list is certainly not the
place to blather about wrongs done to my son, or the pain involved in
navigating with this personality type in the world. So sorry. Thanks for
pointing it out...I didn't see it before.
People as aids in this process is a wonderful way to think about it too.
Thanks for that. It is the people who have given us so much to talk about
and process.
Thanks for your response!
Jacki
Pamela Sorooshian
On May 1, 2006, at 12:47 PM, Gold Standard wrote:
do you good to vent - it does us all good to get some validation
that, yeah, people are sometimes just jerks and wouldn't it be
wonderful if they weren't and our kids didn't have to learn to
navigate around people who are.
-pam
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>>> Anyway - I'm thinking that it doesn't do any good to complain thatYou know what I meant, right? It doesn't do "him" any good? It might
>>> others are noticing his inappropriate behaviors and being judgmental
>>> about it<<
>
> HA! It did me a world of good! (kidding, kidding). You're very
> right Pam,
> and thank you for pointing this out to me. This list is certainly
> not the
> place to blather about wrongs done to my son, or the pain involved in
> navigating with this personality type in the world. So sorry.
> Thanks for
> pointing it out...I didn't see it before.
do you good to vent - it does us all good to get some validation
that, yeah, people are sometimes just jerks and wouldn't it be
wonderful if they weren't and our kids didn't have to learn to
navigate around people who are.
-pam
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Gold Standard
>>You know what I meant, right? It doesn't do "him" any good?<<I know what you mean!
And I agree that complaining about people's behavior doesn't serve
ds...that's clearly a thing for me. I don't talk negatively about people
around him, that would really confuse him. If I spoke negatively, he'd be
getting MISinformation from me when he is really relying on accurate
information.
Though an occasional, "That person was really acting mean" when they really
were, can validate ds's experience too.
Thanks Pam,
Jacki
Pamela Sorooshian
On May 1, 2006, at 5:35 PM, Gold Standard wrote:
difference between someone else's responses being reasonable and to
be expected, based on his behavior, versus when it is totally just
the other person being a jerk.
If I'm driving along and suddenly dart into the next lane and someone
has to hit the brakes to keep from rear-ending me -- they might glare
at me or shake their fist or worse. It wouldn't help me if someone
said, "That guy is a jerk." (Even if he IS overreacting.) Better for
someone to say, "You cut that guy off, that's why he's angry." And
maybe add, "You never know when the person you cut off might be a
real jerk or even dangerous."
-pam
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> Though an occasional, "That person was really acting mean" whenEspecially good to help him out if it is hard for him to know the
> they really
> were, can validate ds's experience too.
difference between someone else's responses being reasonable and to
be expected, based on his behavior, versus when it is totally just
the other person being a jerk.
If I'm driving along and suddenly dart into the next lane and someone
has to hit the brakes to keep from rear-ending me -- they might glare
at me or shake their fist or worse. It wouldn't help me if someone
said, "That guy is a jerk." (Even if he IS overreacting.) Better for
someone to say, "You cut that guy off, that's why he's angry." And
maybe add, "You never know when the person you cut off might be a
real jerk or even dangerous."
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
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