Re:making comparisons (was re: introduction Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry)
Julia Swancy
in my experience one place where you can get into
trouble with noting ages/charting progress and making
comparisons (which comes out of charting), as I think
sandra implied or stated, is when yours is "on the
receiving end," being "late" so to speak. for me, when
galen was in his first year, it was weight. every
breastfed babe I knew at that time was absolutely
enormous! all over the 100th percentile. galen was 50%
the whole year and I had my mom in the background
saying "what if you don't make enough milk?" (grr!) as
a first-time mom, it was really stressful. then, after
his first year, he kept growing when others levelled
off, and I ran into trouble with folks thinking he was
a year older than he was/is (still happens, he's tall)
and therefore expecting behaviors he wasn't capable of
(probably shouldn't be expected even if he *was* the
age they thought, kwim?). a close friend had a similar
situation with her son, but for them it was
locomotion. he scooted/never crawled, and the only
kids who did that that she knew were disabled, and all
her friends' kids were super-early walkers, while her
son walked "late." everyone getting all excited about
it (like we have any influence whatsoever) really
increased her worry, to the point that she had him
evaluated. so that's certainly a potential problem...
we are going through it again with potty-training now.
when I mentioned to my parents that even brazelton (a
source they normally trust) no longer emphasizes
potty-training before age 4, they both got extremely
hostile with me. what the heck, should I send him to
potty boot camp?! not!!!
this thread reminds me of the mainstream concept of
taking credit when kids do well and not when they
"mess up" (whatever that means!). we risk undue
pressure on our kids when we get too vested in their
choices and behavior, essentially living our lives
through them and thus denying them the freedom to be
who *they* are.
adding my .02 as always,
Julia
trouble with noting ages/charting progress and making
comparisons (which comes out of charting), as I think
sandra implied or stated, is when yours is "on the
receiving end," being "late" so to speak. for me, when
galen was in his first year, it was weight. every
breastfed babe I knew at that time was absolutely
enormous! all over the 100th percentile. galen was 50%
the whole year and I had my mom in the background
saying "what if you don't make enough milk?" (grr!) as
a first-time mom, it was really stressful. then, after
his first year, he kept growing when others levelled
off, and I ran into trouble with folks thinking he was
a year older than he was/is (still happens, he's tall)
and therefore expecting behaviors he wasn't capable of
(probably shouldn't be expected even if he *was* the
age they thought, kwim?). a close friend had a similar
situation with her son, but for them it was
locomotion. he scooted/never crawled, and the only
kids who did that that she knew were disabled, and all
her friends' kids were super-early walkers, while her
son walked "late." everyone getting all excited about
it (like we have any influence whatsoever) really
increased her worry, to the point that she had him
evaluated. so that's certainly a potential problem...
we are going through it again with potty-training now.
when I mentioned to my parents that even brazelton (a
source they normally trust) no longer emphasizes
potty-training before age 4, they both got extremely
hostile with me. what the heck, should I send him to
potty boot camp?! not!!!
this thread reminds me of the mainstream concept of
taking credit when kids do well and not when they
"mess up" (whatever that means!). we risk undue
pressure on our kids when we get too vested in their
choices and behavior, essentially living our lives
through them and thus denying them the freedom to be
who *they* are.
adding my .02 as always,
Julia
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 21, 2006, at 8:20 AM, Julia Swancy wrote:
didn't clearly say so. <g>
It's undue pressure on the mom too, to try to live her life and
someone else's both.
The "you are your child's partner" pep talks I heard at La Leche
League meetings 19 years ago changed my life. What a child does is
points for our team, but stupid things I did were points against our
team.
Sandra
> this thread reminds me of the mainstream concept ofThanks, Julia. That's what I was thinking, though what I was writing
> taking credit when kids do well and not when they
> "mess up" (whatever that means!). we risk undue
> pressure on our kids when we get too vested in their
> choices and behavior, essentially living our lives
> through them and thus denying them the freedom to be
> who *they* are.
didn't clearly say so. <g>
It's undue pressure on the mom too, to try to live her life and
someone else's both.
The "you are your child's partner" pep talks I heard at La Leche
League meetings 19 years ago changed my life. What a child does is
points for our team, but stupid things I did were points against our
team.
Sandra
Su Penn
On Apr 21, 2006, at 10:20 AM, Julia Swancy wrote:
started walking between 17 & 18 months. I have my own not-always-good
history with being "precocious" and I was surrounded at that time by
friends who reported on their babies like this: "Nate has started
walking. He's only nine months, so that's very advanced." Not just
telling what the baby did, but reporting always on how that stacks up
to what other babies do, with a definite emphasis on early being better.
So I thought it was good for me that I got early practice at being
cheerful and mellow in the face of people suggesting there was
something wrong with Eric (even though the age at which he walked was
completely within the normal developmental range, not delayed at
all), pressing me to get him checked out, or blaming his character
("He's just lazy."). It was also good practice seeing my kid through
my own eyes, because it was so clear he was busy with other things
and developing in all kinds of ways--including improving gross motor
skills, just not through walking. Watching Eric play and work, it was
clear that there was absolutely nothing wrong with him. It only ever
seemed like there might be when people were comparing him to their
own (superior) babies, or trying to hold him up to some expectation
they'd developed of what babies "should" be doing at any given time.
Anyway, at the time I said to my partner, "It's so great that I'm
being forced to confront my childhood issues and my own unhealthy
desire to have an advanced kid now, before I've had the time to screw
him up."
I'd also add to what Julie said that there is potential trouble when
a kid is on the "early" end and parents--or the child--get too
invested not only in what the child is doing and how the child is
developing and learning, but the fact that the child is early. I have
a lot of friends who are college professors and they value intellect,
they tended to be "gifted" themselves as children, and they expect
their kids to be, too. It makes me nervous when I hear them talking
about their kids--in the kids' hearing--saying not just, "It's so
exciting that Jaden has learned to read!" but "Jaden has learned to
read, and he's only four!"
From my own experience, getting praise for doing things early can
lead to a kid pushing herself to remain "ahead," which gets harder
and harder as you get older. Or it can lead to problems transitioning
to adulthood. It's weird to look back on it now at the age of 40, but
it was very hard for me in my mid-twenties when I realized I was too
old to be "precocious" anymore, that no matter what I accomplished, I
would never again be the youngest person ever to do it. Because being
precocious had been treated like a big deal, by parents, teachers,
and relatives, it was hard for me to let go of that quality being
something that gave me value.
When I was 21, I was in a Ph.D. program and on-track to complete my
degree at 24 or 25. The program was wrong for me; I was struggling in
it; the department was terribly dysfunctional. It was clear I needed
to get out of there. My youth was made much of in my department by
faculty and other students, and one reason it took me a year longer
than it should have to leave the program was the knowledge that even
if I went back later and finished a Ph.D., I wouldn't be an
especially young person with a Ph.D.
I have a friend who is wonderfully healthy about this, and she is
also a gift to me. She has a son, a year older than Eric, who was one
of your monkey-type toddlers, swarming up anything that wasn't
perfectly smooth, leaping into the air, turning somersaults. Eric
continues to be less physically daring than many kids his age (5). It
was only recently, for instance, that he tried out jumping off the
bottom step with both feet and without holding onto anything. My
friend was with us when it happened, and she entered so whole-
heartedly into his own excitement and sense of accomplishment--I
could tell that it never crossed her mind to think, "Big deal, Noah
has been doing that since he was 14 months old."
The underlying issue, I think, is how damaging it can be to compare
children, to decide that one child is doing "better" and that the
other child is therefore somehow deficient. And this is damaging to a
child whether he is the better one or the deficient one. And it is
damaging to our relationships with our kids if we're thinking in
these terms even in subtle ways. Or so it seems to me.
Su
> in my experience one place where you can get intoI always say that it was an unexpected gift to me that my first
> trouble with noting ages/charting progress and making
> comparisons (which comes out of charting), as I think
> sandra implied or stated, is when yours is "on the
> receiving end," being "late" so to speak.
started walking between 17 & 18 months. I have my own not-always-good
history with being "precocious" and I was surrounded at that time by
friends who reported on their babies like this: "Nate has started
walking. He's only nine months, so that's very advanced." Not just
telling what the baby did, but reporting always on how that stacks up
to what other babies do, with a definite emphasis on early being better.
So I thought it was good for me that I got early practice at being
cheerful and mellow in the face of people suggesting there was
something wrong with Eric (even though the age at which he walked was
completely within the normal developmental range, not delayed at
all), pressing me to get him checked out, or blaming his character
("He's just lazy."). It was also good practice seeing my kid through
my own eyes, because it was so clear he was busy with other things
and developing in all kinds of ways--including improving gross motor
skills, just not through walking. Watching Eric play and work, it was
clear that there was absolutely nothing wrong with him. It only ever
seemed like there might be when people were comparing him to their
own (superior) babies, or trying to hold him up to some expectation
they'd developed of what babies "should" be doing at any given time.
Anyway, at the time I said to my partner, "It's so great that I'm
being forced to confront my childhood issues and my own unhealthy
desire to have an advanced kid now, before I've had the time to screw
him up."
I'd also add to what Julie said that there is potential trouble when
a kid is on the "early" end and parents--or the child--get too
invested not only in what the child is doing and how the child is
developing and learning, but the fact that the child is early. I have
a lot of friends who are college professors and they value intellect,
they tended to be "gifted" themselves as children, and they expect
their kids to be, too. It makes me nervous when I hear them talking
about their kids--in the kids' hearing--saying not just, "It's so
exciting that Jaden has learned to read!" but "Jaden has learned to
read, and he's only four!"
From my own experience, getting praise for doing things early can
lead to a kid pushing herself to remain "ahead," which gets harder
and harder as you get older. Or it can lead to problems transitioning
to adulthood. It's weird to look back on it now at the age of 40, but
it was very hard for me in my mid-twenties when I realized I was too
old to be "precocious" anymore, that no matter what I accomplished, I
would never again be the youngest person ever to do it. Because being
precocious had been treated like a big deal, by parents, teachers,
and relatives, it was hard for me to let go of that quality being
something that gave me value.
When I was 21, I was in a Ph.D. program and on-track to complete my
degree at 24 or 25. The program was wrong for me; I was struggling in
it; the department was terribly dysfunctional. It was clear I needed
to get out of there. My youth was made much of in my department by
faculty and other students, and one reason it took me a year longer
than it should have to leave the program was the knowledge that even
if I went back later and finished a Ph.D., I wouldn't be an
especially young person with a Ph.D.
I have a friend who is wonderfully healthy about this, and she is
also a gift to me. She has a son, a year older than Eric, who was one
of your monkey-type toddlers, swarming up anything that wasn't
perfectly smooth, leaping into the air, turning somersaults. Eric
continues to be less physically daring than many kids his age (5). It
was only recently, for instance, that he tried out jumping off the
bottom step with both feet and without holding onto anything. My
friend was with us when it happened, and she entered so whole-
heartedly into his own excitement and sense of accomplishment--I
could tell that it never crossed her mind to think, "Big deal, Noah
has been doing that since he was 14 months old."
The underlying issue, I think, is how damaging it can be to compare
children, to decide that one child is doing "better" and that the
other child is therefore somehow deficient. And this is damaging to a
child whether he is the better one or the deficient one. And it is
damaging to our relationships with our kids if we're thinking in
these terms even in subtle ways. Or so it seems to me.
Su
s.waynforth
Su Penn wrote:
species, as a whole, that has a short infancy or juvenile period usually
lives in a lousy environment where infants or juveniles are most likely
to be eaten before reaching adulthood. So, things like dragonflies,
which have a really long juvenile period, have a low predation or
mortality risk when they are young, but are really quick to be devoured
once they molt into dragonflies. I always keep that in mind when
thinking about my own children's precociousness, or lack thereof. I
figure that the longer they are little, the better their environment is.
Schuyler
> I always say that it was an unexpected gift to me that my firstPrecociousness in the animal kingdom isn't always a good thing. Any
> started walking between 17 & 18 months. I have my own not-always-good
> history with being "precocious" and I was surrounded at that time by
> friends who reported on their babies like this: "Nate has started
> walking. He's only nine months, so that's very advanced." Not just
> telling what the baby did, but reporting always on how that stacks up
> to what other babies do, with a definite emphasis on early being better.
>
> So I thought it was good for me that I got early practice at being
> cheerful and mellow in the face of people suggesting there was
> something wrong with Eric (even though the age at which he walked was
> completely within the normal developmental range, not delayed at
> all), pressing me to get him checked out, or blaming his character
> ("He's just lazy."). It was also good practice seeing my kid through
> my own eyes, because it was so clear he was busy with other things
> and developing in all kinds of ways--including improving gross motor
> skills, just not through walking. Watching Eric play and work, it was
> clear that there was absolutely nothing wrong with him. It only ever
> seemed like there might be when people were comparing him to their
> own (superior) babies, or trying to hold him up to some expectation
> they'd developed of what babies "should" be doing at any given time.
>
species, as a whole, that has a short infancy or juvenile period usually
lives in a lousy environment where infants or juveniles are most likely
to be eaten before reaching adulthood. So, things like dragonflies,
which have a really long juvenile period, have a low predation or
mortality risk when they are young, but are really quick to be devoured
once they molt into dragonflies. I always keep that in mind when
thinking about my own children's precociousness, or lack thereof. I
figure that the longer they are little, the better their environment is.
Schuyler
Bling Williams
Su Penn <supenn@...> wrote:
I always say that it was an unexpected gift to me that my first
started walking between 17 & 18 months. I have my own not-always-good
history with being "precocious" and I was surrounded at that time by
friends who reported on their babies like this: "Nate has started
walking. He's only nine months, so that's very advanced." Not just
telling what the baby did, but reporting always on how that stacks up
to what other babies do, with a definite emphasis on early being better.
Its amazing how competative this is. I used to point out that whena child is 18 no-one is gonna give two cents what age they walked!
My kids all walked at different ages ranging from 6 months for the eldest to never for the youngest. I love them all the same!
So I thought it was good for me that I got early practice at being
cheerful and mellow in the face of people suggesting there was
something wrong with Eric (even though the age at which he walked was
completely within the normal developmental range, not delayed at
all), pressing me to get him checked out, or blaming his character
("He's just lazy."). It was also good practice seeing my kid through
my own eyes, because it was so clear he was busy with other things
and developing in all kinds of ways--including improving gross motor
skills, just not through walking. Watching Eric play and work, it was
clear that there was absolutely nothing wrong with him. It only ever
seemed like there might be when people were comparing him to their
own (superior) babies, or trying to hold him up to some expectation
they'd developed of what babies "should" be doing at any given time.
One thing I would hope is that one day 'soemthing wrong' becomes not such a big deal. Maybe this would eliminate the competition when cerebral aplsy is seen as just another facet and not the end of the world1!
I'd also add to what Julie said that there is potential trouble when
a kid is on the "early" end and parents--or the child--get too
invested not only in what the child is doing and how the child is
developing and learning, but the fact that the child is early. I have
a lot of friends who are college professors and they value intellect,
they tended to be "gifted" themselves as children, and they expect
their kids to be, too. It makes me nervous when I hear them talking
about their kids--in the kids' hearing--saying not just, "It's so
exciting that Jaden has learned to read!" but "Jaden has learned to
read, and he's only four!"
We had this from the in-laws. They are both pushy academics and only value kids for doing something 'early' or 'better' (as long as its intellectual) They were like it all through my eldest three's babyhood. Used to drive me nuts. They are like it now. C is worthless to them because she is qadraplegic. B causes them worries cos he has Aspergers and plays computer games all day.
99.9999% of people are not gonna be Nobel Prize winners. They need to get over it.
From my own experience, getting praise for doing things early can
lead to a kid pushing herself to remain "ahead," which gets harder
and harder as you get older. Or it can lead to problems transitioning
to adulthood. It's weird to look back on it now at the age of 40, but
it was very hard for me in my mid-twenties when I realized I was too
old to be "precocious" anymore, that no matter what I accomplished, I
would never again be the youngest person ever to do it. Because being
precocious had been treated like a big deal, by parents, teachers,
and relatives, it was hard for me to let go of that quality being
something that gave me value.
GHow did it make you feel> I ask cos my eldest has gone back to school and MIL is always going on about how her marks are the best. Eldest is absorbing this and her values have changed but she's also unhappy because she feels she should get 100% in every test and be the cleverest, thinnest, etc etc. I'm worried sick and constantly tell her that I love her for herself, that I'm not fussed about school. Then MIL visits and undoes all I say by telling H that only stupid people stay at home and look after kids (that'll be me....), only stupid people have disabled kids etc. Its reaLLYmessing up our family and making H unhappy. I don't know what to say to her to counter MIL and help her feel that who is she is whats important, not some grade no-one will recall in 5 years time.
IThe underlying issue, I think, is how damaging it can be to compare
children, to decide that one child is doing "better" and that the
other child is therefore somehow deficient. And this is damaging to a
child whether he is the better one or the deficient one. And it is
damaging to our relationships with our kids if we're thinking in
these terms even in subtle ways. Or so it seems to me.
Its a very insidious thing. I was watching some adverts the other day aimed at mothers for those electronic book things. onthe advert mum and dad were thrilled when beautiful blond blue eyed (another message there) toddler pressed the buttons and repeated the words but unhappy when the child didn't. It was promoting such early academic stuff I was astonished. the next advert was for a car with the message that women wont find you sexy unless you achieve anough in life to own the car. the car buyer was suave and handsome, the guy on the bike the women ignored was geeky with mad hair.
Its a real battle changing this. H already thinks that what you look like and what you are is more important than who you are inside :-(
S
Su
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I always say that it was an unexpected gift to me that my first
started walking between 17 & 18 months. I have my own not-always-good
history with being "precocious" and I was surrounded at that time by
friends who reported on their babies like this: "Nate has started
walking. He's only nine months, so that's very advanced." Not just
telling what the baby did, but reporting always on how that stacks up
to what other babies do, with a definite emphasis on early being better.
Its amazing how competative this is. I used to point out that whena child is 18 no-one is gonna give two cents what age they walked!
My kids all walked at different ages ranging from 6 months for the eldest to never for the youngest. I love them all the same!
So I thought it was good for me that I got early practice at being
cheerful and mellow in the face of people suggesting there was
something wrong with Eric (even though the age at which he walked was
completely within the normal developmental range, not delayed at
all), pressing me to get him checked out, or blaming his character
("He's just lazy."). It was also good practice seeing my kid through
my own eyes, because it was so clear he was busy with other things
and developing in all kinds of ways--including improving gross motor
skills, just not through walking. Watching Eric play and work, it was
clear that there was absolutely nothing wrong with him. It only ever
seemed like there might be when people were comparing him to their
own (superior) babies, or trying to hold him up to some expectation
they'd developed of what babies "should" be doing at any given time.
One thing I would hope is that one day 'soemthing wrong' becomes not such a big deal. Maybe this would eliminate the competition when cerebral aplsy is seen as just another facet and not the end of the world1!
I'd also add to what Julie said that there is potential trouble when
a kid is on the "early" end and parents--or the child--get too
invested not only in what the child is doing and how the child is
developing and learning, but the fact that the child is early. I have
a lot of friends who are college professors and they value intellect,
they tended to be "gifted" themselves as children, and they expect
their kids to be, too. It makes me nervous when I hear them talking
about their kids--in the kids' hearing--saying not just, "It's so
exciting that Jaden has learned to read!" but "Jaden has learned to
read, and he's only four!"
We had this from the in-laws. They are both pushy academics and only value kids for doing something 'early' or 'better' (as long as its intellectual) They were like it all through my eldest three's babyhood. Used to drive me nuts. They are like it now. C is worthless to them because she is qadraplegic. B causes them worries cos he has Aspergers and plays computer games all day.
99.9999% of people are not gonna be Nobel Prize winners. They need to get over it.
From my own experience, getting praise for doing things early can
lead to a kid pushing herself to remain "ahead," which gets harder
and harder as you get older. Or it can lead to problems transitioning
to adulthood. It's weird to look back on it now at the age of 40, but
it was very hard for me in my mid-twenties when I realized I was too
old to be "precocious" anymore, that no matter what I accomplished, I
would never again be the youngest person ever to do it. Because being
precocious had been treated like a big deal, by parents, teachers,
and relatives, it was hard for me to let go of that quality being
something that gave me value.
GHow did it make you feel> I ask cos my eldest has gone back to school and MIL is always going on about how her marks are the best. Eldest is absorbing this and her values have changed but she's also unhappy because she feels she should get 100% in every test and be the cleverest, thinnest, etc etc. I'm worried sick and constantly tell her that I love her for herself, that I'm not fussed about school. Then MIL visits and undoes all I say by telling H that only stupid people stay at home and look after kids (that'll be me....), only stupid people have disabled kids etc. Its reaLLYmessing up our family and making H unhappy. I don't know what to say to her to counter MIL and help her feel that who is she is whats important, not some grade no-one will recall in 5 years time.
IThe underlying issue, I think, is how damaging it can be to compare
children, to decide that one child is doing "better" and that the
other child is therefore somehow deficient. And this is damaging to a
child whether he is the better one or the deficient one. And it is
damaging to our relationships with our kids if we're thinking in
these terms even in subtle ways. Or so it seems to me.
Its a very insidious thing. I was watching some adverts the other day aimed at mothers for those electronic book things. onthe advert mum and dad were thrilled when beautiful blond blue eyed (another message there) toddler pressed the buttons and repeated the words but unhappy when the child didn't. It was promoting such early academic stuff I was astonished. the next advert was for a car with the message that women wont find you sexy unless you achieve anough in life to own the car. the car buyer was suave and handsome, the guy on the bike the women ignored was geeky with mad hair.
Its a real battle changing this. H already thinks that what you look like and what you are is more important than who you are inside :-(
S
Su
---------------------------------
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www.celyn.org
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Melissa
On Apr 21, 2006, at 10:39 AM, Bling Williams wrote:
thinking they are toxic to your family's happiness!
<snip>
the only thing that would get you anywhere, and the only valued thing
about me was my grades. Ick. I can tell you that it screwed up my
whole childhood, contributed to obsessive compulsive tendencies and
left me high and dry when grades didn't matter anymore. I went to
college and spent thousands of dollars in a major I hated, and wasted
a year of my life trying to prove something and get my mom to approve
of me. I faced disappointment from all camps when I dropped my premed
and went to regular zoology. What I want to know is, How in the hell
does your MIL equate intelligence to disability? That is not good for
your children to be around, esp your own who has quad! I would
definitely not allow a poisonous influence like that in my home or
around my kids! That's the first step in teaching kids that it's not
true, by not letting someone beat them over the head with it!
My oldest had a lot of trouble at home when I first pulled them out
of school. He did great! He had awesome grades, and he tested well,
and the teachers loved him. But he had gotten to the point where
performance was all that counted, and he only lived to please.
There's no living in that. When he first came home he cried all the
time, he needed someone to tell him all the time that he was the best
at everything. That's all that exists in the schools, and you can't
get around that. If you can't be the best at grades, then it becomes
sports, or clubs, or ingratiating yourself to the teachers. And if
you can't succeed at that, you're told you're a failure and you
become part of the crowd that's out to prove that what adults say
doesn't matter, rebel without a cause. That's what happened to my
brother who couldn't succeed in school or with my family.
Eh, again, not enough sleep. hope this makes sense. Please do what
you can to protect your daughter from hearing it. And apologize to
her for it. Explain to her that MIL was raised in an era or a culture
that values performance above the person.
(hugs)
Melissa
>What the heck? I cannot believe that anyone could think this. I'm
> We had this from the in-laws. They are both pushy academics and
> only value kids for doing something 'early' or 'better' (as long as
> its intellectual) They were like it all through my eldest three's
> babyhood. Used to drive me nuts. They are like it now. C is
> worthless to them because she is qadraplegic. B causes them worries
> cos he has Aspergers and plays computer games all day.
> 99.9999% of people are not gonna be Nobel Prize winners. They
> need to get over it.
>
thinking they are toxic to your family's happiness!
<snip>
> GHow did it make you feel> I ask cos my eldest has gone back toI had the same thing, my mom going on and on about how grades were
> school and MIL is always going on about how her marks are the best.
> Eldest is absorbing this and her values have changed but she's also
> unhappy because she feels she should get 100% in every test and be
> the cleverest, thinnest, etc etc. I'm worried sick and constantly
> tell her that I love her for herself, that I'm not fussed about
> school. Then MIL visits and undoes all I say by telling H that only
> stupid people stay at home and look after kids (that'll be me....),
> only stupid people have disabled kids etc. Its reaLLYmessing up our
> family and making H unhappy. I don't know what to say to her to
> counter MIL and help her feel that who is she is whats important,
> not some grade no-one will recall in 5 years time.
the only thing that would get you anywhere, and the only valued thing
about me was my grades. Ick. I can tell you that it screwed up my
whole childhood, contributed to obsessive compulsive tendencies and
left me high and dry when grades didn't matter anymore. I went to
college and spent thousands of dollars in a major I hated, and wasted
a year of my life trying to prove something and get my mom to approve
of me. I faced disappointment from all camps when I dropped my premed
and went to regular zoology. What I want to know is, How in the hell
does your MIL equate intelligence to disability? That is not good for
your children to be around, esp your own who has quad! I would
definitely not allow a poisonous influence like that in my home or
around my kids! That's the first step in teaching kids that it's not
true, by not letting someone beat them over the head with it!
My oldest had a lot of trouble at home when I first pulled them out
of school. He did great! He had awesome grades, and he tested well,
and the teachers loved him. But he had gotten to the point where
performance was all that counted, and he only lived to please.
There's no living in that. When he first came home he cried all the
time, he needed someone to tell him all the time that he was the best
at everything. That's all that exists in the schools, and you can't
get around that. If you can't be the best at grades, then it becomes
sports, or clubs, or ingratiating yourself to the teachers. And if
you can't succeed at that, you're told you're a failure and you
become part of the crowd that's out to prove that what adults say
doesn't matter, rebel without a cause. That's what happened to my
brother who couldn't succeed in school or with my family.
Eh, again, not enough sleep. hope this makes sense. Please do what
you can to protect your daughter from hearing it. And apologize to
her for it. Explain to her that MIL was raised in an era or a culture
that values performance above the person.
(hugs)
Melissa
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 21, 2006, at 9:39 AM, Bling Williams wrote:
when I saw the "as long as it's intellectual" note. DARN!
More people will be Nobel Prize winners than president of the United
States, yet it seems our whole school system here is based on making
sure everyone has an opportunity to maybe be president. Used to be
president-or-an-astronaut, but astronaut isn't high on the scale
anymore. President isn't as high as it used to be either, on "gosh,
I hope my kid does THAT!" scales.
http://sandradodd.com/president
Sandra
> -=- We had this from the in-laws. They are both pushy academicsI was all ready to brag about how early Kirby could play Nintendo,
> and only value kids for doing something 'early' or 'better' (as
> long as its intellectual) They were like it all through my eldest
> three's babyhood. Used to drive me nuts. They are like it now. C is
> worthless to them because she is qadraplegic. B causes them worries
> cos he has Aspergers and plays computer games all day.
> 99.9999% of people are not gonna be Nobel Prize winners. They
> need to get over it.-=-
when I saw the "as long as it's intellectual" note. DARN!
More people will be Nobel Prize winners than president of the United
States, yet it seems our whole school system here is based on making
sure everyone has an opportunity to maybe be president. Used to be
president-or-an-astronaut, but astronaut isn't high on the scale
anymore. President isn't as high as it used to be either, on "gosh,
I hope my kid does THAT!" scales.
http://sandradodd.com/president
Sandra
s.waynforth
> I always keep that in mind whenOf course, that leaves me just as smug as those individuals who take
> thinking about my own children's precociousness, or lack thereof. I
> figure that the longer they are little, the better their environment is.
>
> Schuyler
>
>
their children's precociousness to be evidence of a good environment.
Sigh...
Schuyler
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 21, 2006, at 8:19 AM, Su Penn wrote:
community college courses when they were young - 13/14. And they got
a LOT of extreme stuff thrown at them like, "Wow, you must be a
genius." They KNEW better - but, still, it happened a lot and, even
though it made them uncomfortable, it was part of their identity,
too. When they got to BE college age and were still doing stuff at
the community college, then they weren't any longer constantly
receiving that kind of "admiration." They noticed it and part of them
missed it - part of them was relieved to be past it.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Or it can lead to problems transitioningMy older two kids faced this, themselves. They started taking
> to adulthood. It's weird to look back on it now at the age of 40, but
> it was very hard for me in my mid-twenties when I realized I was too
> old to be "precocious" anymore, that no matter what I accomplished, I
> would never again be the youngest person ever to do it. Because being
> precocious had been treated like a big deal, by parents, teachers,
> and relatives, it was hard for me to let go of that quality being
> something that gave me value.
community college courses when they were young - 13/14. And they got
a LOT of extreme stuff thrown at them like, "Wow, you must be a
genius." They KNEW better - but, still, it happened a lot and, even
though it made them uncomfortable, it was part of their identity,
too. When they got to BE college age and were still doing stuff at
the community college, then they weren't any longer constantly
receiving that kind of "admiration." They noticed it and part of them
missed it - part of them was relieved to be past it.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bling Williams
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote: I was all ready to brag about how early Kirby could play Nintendo,
when I saw the "as long as it's intellectual" note. DARN!
More people will be Nobel Prize winners than president of the United
States, yet it seems our whole school system here is based on making
sure everyone has an opportunity to maybe be president. Used to be
president-or-an-astronaut, but astronaut isn't high on the scale
anymore. President isn't as high as it used to be either, on "gosh,
I hope my kid does THAT!" scales.
http://sandradodd.com/president
Sandra
Seeing what the plumber charged us today to fix a leak I'm hoping mine go into plumbing!!!
None of them have any idea really. H wants to go to university and maybe do a science. B has no idea and R wants to be a policeman. Or he did until I said he'd probably have to get his hair cut ;-) C will be a bit more limited cos she can't move or speak. Maybe President ...;-)
I'm hoping they will be happy.
S
http://nobravery.cf.huffingtonpost.com/
www.celyn.org
---------------------------------
Celebrate Earth Day everyday! Discover 10 things you can do to help slow climate change. Yahoo! Earth Day
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
when I saw the "as long as it's intellectual" note. DARN!
More people will be Nobel Prize winners than president of the United
States, yet it seems our whole school system here is based on making
sure everyone has an opportunity to maybe be president. Used to be
president-or-an-astronaut, but astronaut isn't high on the scale
anymore. President isn't as high as it used to be either, on "gosh,
I hope my kid does THAT!" scales.
http://sandradodd.com/president
Sandra
Seeing what the plumber charged us today to fix a leak I'm hoping mine go into plumbing!!!
None of them have any idea really. H wants to go to university and maybe do a science. B has no idea and R wants to be a policeman. Or he did until I said he'd probably have to get his hair cut ;-) C will be a bit more limited cos she can't move or speak. Maybe President ...;-)
I'm hoping they will be happy.
S
http://nobravery.cf.huffingtonpost.com/
www.celyn.org
---------------------------------
Celebrate Earth Day everyday! Discover 10 things you can do to help slow climate change. Yahoo! Earth Day
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
> it was very hard for me in my mid-twenties when I realized I was tooI learned to play guitar quickly and learned lots of cool little
> old to be "precocious" anymore, that no matter what I accomplished
fingerpicking tricks no one else in my whole town knew. My boyfriend
was lead guitar player in the best band in the area, and I learned
Blackbird off the record in about an hour, because I got tired of
hearing him struggling and not getting it for two days, but I hid
from him that I could do it until a day or two after he learned it
(with my help).
When people said "Wow, how long have you played?" when it was "six
months" or "a year" I was GREAT!! Now it's... 38 years and I SUCK!
After a few years I never messed with it enough to learn anything
new, really. I accompany myself singing, but it's got to be in a
simple key and nothing intricate. So sometimes "talent" doesn't
equal quality.
I've lately taken a job doing legal-assistant tasks on a contract
basis. The lawyer I'm working for is amazed at how quickly I pick
things up. She's dazzled, and I like that. It won't last forever,
though. There are only so many easy new concepts to pick up quickly
and then she'll be expecting me to learn quickly, and I'll probably
be bored instead of stimulated by newness.
Sandra
Cally Brown
Of my 4 sons, my 'slowest' child started crawling at 5 1/2 months, and
walked at 9 3/4 months. The 'fastest' crawled at 4 1/2 months and walked
at 8 3/4 months. The other two were in between these ages.
proud whatever! It drove me nuts that they didn't see what hard work it
was having these super active, hyper little kids who were too young to
understand very much at all in the way of words.
But what really got me was mil's insistance that walking so young was
bad for my #1ds and that he'd end up having 'bandy legs or worse'.
Eventually I snapped, "Well, what do you suggest I do? Nail his feet to
the floor?"
It was her husband, my fil, who told me not to talk to this same child
because, "It's pointless. Until he can talk himself, he won't be able to
understand you."!!!!!
Well, duh!
Cally
walked at 9 3/4 months. The 'fastest' crawled at 4 1/2 months and walked
at 8 3/4 months. The other two were in between these ages.
> I have my own not-always-goodIt drove me nuts that people commented on this as if I should be glad,
>history with being "precocious" and I was surrounded at that time by
>friends who reported on their babies like this: "Nate has started
>walking. He's only nine months, so that's very advanced."
>
proud whatever! It drove me nuts that they didn't see what hard work it
was having these super active, hyper little kids who were too young to
understand very much at all in the way of words.
But what really got me was mil's insistance that walking so young was
bad for my #1ds and that he'd end up having 'bandy legs or worse'.
Eventually I snapped, "Well, what do you suggest I do? Nail his feet to
the floor?"
It was her husband, my fil, who told me not to talk to this same child
because, "It's pointless. Until he can talk himself, he won't be able to
understand you."!!!!!
Well, duh!
Cally
freepsgal
> when I mentioned to my parents that even brazelton (aOh man! My ds9 is still suffering bowel problems from being forced
> source they normally trust) no longer emphasizes
> potty-training before age 4, they both got extremely
> hostile with me. what the heck, should I send him to
> potty boot camp?! not!!!
> Julia
into potty training before he was ready. I was working at the time
and he was in daycare. GA has a free preK program that I thought
was the bees knees at the time. His birthday is in July and school
begins in August, so unbeknownst to me, the daycare was putting
major pressure on him that summer. I later learned that they told
him if he wasn't potty trained by the end of July, just after his
4th birthday, not only would they not promote him to the preK
program with his friends, but they'd demote him from the 3 yr. old
room to the 2 yr. old room. ACK! I had NO idea they were doing
this to him! By Christmas, we were seeing the results of that
pressure and thus began our issues. As soon as I learned what they
had done, I pulled him out, but of course it was too late. The
damage was done.
Beth M.
Kim H
<I learned
Blackbird off the record in about an hour,>
I was only, last week, trying to remember how to play this song myself. I got the flute and guitar out, blew off the dust, and played away. Haven't played for a year or so. Flute as OK as I've been playing that for my lifetime (almost) but not so the guitar. Have lost most of the guitar stuff I'd learnt which is a bugger because every day since then I find myself constantly humming Blackbird and thinking that I need to go and have guitar lessons again just to get that song out of my head!
Kim
Blackbird off the record in about an hour,>
I was only, last week, trying to remember how to play this song myself. I got the flute and guitar out, blew off the dust, and played away. Haven't played for a year or so. Flute as OK as I've been playing that for my lifetime (almost) but not so the guitar. Have lost most of the guitar stuff I'd learnt which is a bugger because every day since then I find myself constantly humming Blackbird and thinking that I need to go and have guitar lessons again just to get that song out of my head!
Kim
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandra Dodd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re:making comparisons (was re: introduction Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry)
> it was very hard for me in my mid-twenties when I realized I was too
> old to be "precocious" anymore, that no matter what I accomplished
I learned to play guitar quickly and learned lots of cool little
fingerpicking tricks no one else in my whole town knew. My boyfriend
was lead guitar player in the best band in the area, and I learned
Blackbird off the record in about an hour, because I got tired of
hearing him struggling and not getting it for two days, but I hid
from him that I could do it until a day or two after he learned it
(with my help).
When people said "Wow, how long have you played?" when it was "six
months" or "a year" I was GREAT!! Now it's... 38 years and I SUCK!
After a few years I never messed with it enough to learn anything
new, really. I accompany myself singing, but it's got to be in a
simple key and nothing intricate. So sometimes "talent" doesn't
equal quality.
I've lately taken a job doing legal-assistant tasks on a contract
basis. The lawyer I'm working for is amazed at how quickly I pick
things up. She's dazzled, and I like that. It won't last forever,
though. There are only so many easy new concepts to pick up quickly
and then she'll be expecting me to learn quickly, and I'll probably
be bored instead of stimulated by newness.
Sandra
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katherand2003
I don't think smug is the word for how I feel about it. It's more
like thankful to be able to provide an environment that will so-called
"baby" ds longer than usual so he can have time to develop good
decision making abilities.
My folks are all up in arms every time they talk to me about how I
should "handle" ds and stop babying him. Huh. Don't think it makes
sense to me to listen one teeny weeny iota. Good think I'm not in the
throes of anxiety over it even though poor dh is. Hope he finds some
peace soon. :)
I keep hearing that idea in my head throughout the developmental talk
in this thread that unschooling is like moving attachment parenting
with you into the rest of your child(ren)'s childhood. And it's a
fine thing really.
Kathe
--- In [email protected], "s.waynforth" <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
like thankful to be able to provide an environment that will so-called
"baby" ds longer than usual so he can have time to develop good
decision making abilities.
My folks are all up in arms every time they talk to me about how I
should "handle" ds and stop babying him. Huh. Don't think it makes
sense to me to listen one teeny weeny iota. Good think I'm not in the
throes of anxiety over it even though poor dh is. Hope he finds some
peace soon. :)
I keep hearing that idea in my head throughout the developmental talk
in this thread that unschooling is like moving attachment parenting
with you into the rest of your child(ren)'s childhood. And it's a
fine thing really.
Kathe
--- In [email protected], "s.waynforth" <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
>environment is.
>
> > I always keep that in mind when
> > thinking about my own children's precociousness, or lack thereof. I
> > figure that the longer they are little, the better their
> >
> > Schuyler
> >
> >
>
> Of course, that leaves me just as smug as those individuals who take
> their children's precociousness to be evidence of a good environment.
> Sigh...
>
> Schuyler
>
katherand2003
>>>>Its amazing how competative this is. I used to point out thatwhena child is 18 no-one is gonna give two cents what age they
walked!<<<<
Well they *might* give 2 cents what age their precocious walkers
walked for years and years. Every new baby they meet grants them an
opportunity to share it yet again.
Speaking from the perspective of not being a precocious walker (I
know.. poor me :-PP~~~~) it's irritating to hear how I was such a
"lazy" baby --not the least "in a hurry" to walk. Yah.. and I'm a low
key gal which may or may not have anything to do with the price of tea
in China.
I agree with you. It won't matter how early or late a child is when
s/he's older... but only (I would add) ...as long as s/he doesn't hear
comparisons. Hopefully most people have no idea when s/he passed
certain earthshaking self-definitive milestones. Who we are and what
we do might be related sometimes. Just as easily they can be totally
unrelated in my opinion.
What if we were to think "I did it!" or "that's interesting" or "cool"
or "huh.. I wonder about this over here now..." without attaching age,
gender, or other traits to accomplishments? We might not necessarily
choose even to think of them as accomplishments per se. Sounds easier
to me.
Some woman was the first female feminist and probably didn't get
credit for it or think I'm the "first." She might have been more
likely to feel she was the "only" one and maybe lonely or villified OR
maybe none of those. Same goes for the first male feminist.
Kathe
Joanna Wilkinson
--- In [email protected], "katherand2003"
<katherand@...> wrote:
I was reading "Right brained children in a Left Brained World" and
late walking is a sign of right brained tendancies.
It's a question asked when people are trying to diagnose ADD.
I started reading the book because someone sent me an online test
for right brain, left brain or middle brain.
The book deals with kids in the system so it's hard to relate to the
problems these kids endure. It's frustrating too. I'm pretty sure
my son would have been one of these kids, but he hasn't had any of
the crap that they give as examples, so I just have to guess how he
would probably react. Then I get to feeling really sad about these
poor kids. I can't imagine living that life. (as the parent of
these kids)
I stopped reading it.
Joanna
<katherand@...> wrote:
>that
> >>>>Its amazing how competative this is. I used to point out
> whena child is 18 no-one is gonna give two cents what age theyApparently, people do seem to care when children start walking.
> walked!<<<<
>
I was reading "Right brained children in a Left Brained World" and
late walking is a sign of right brained tendancies.
It's a question asked when people are trying to diagnose ADD.
I started reading the book because someone sent me an online test
for right brain, left brain or middle brain.
The book deals with kids in the system so it's hard to relate to the
problems these kids endure. It's frustrating too. I'm pretty sure
my son would have been one of these kids, but he hasn't had any of
the crap that they give as examples, so I just have to guess how he
would probably react. Then I get to feeling really sad about these
poor kids. I can't imagine living that life. (as the parent of
these kids)
I stopped reading it.
Joanna
katherand2003
And thanks for unrecommending that book. :) It doesn't sound like
anything that would help me to know but maybe someone else would find
it useful. Somebody who's kids are in school maybe.
Kathe
--- In [email protected], "Joanna Wilkinson"
<jbwilkinson6@...> wrote:
anything that would help me to know but maybe someone else would find
it useful. Somebody who's kids are in school maybe.
Kathe
--- In [email protected], "Joanna Wilkinson"
<jbwilkinson6@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "katherand2003"
> <katherand@> wrote:
> >
> > >>>>Its amazing how competative this is. I used to point out
> that
> > whena child is 18 no-one is gonna give two cents what age they
> > walked!<<<<
> >
>
> Apparently, people do seem to care when children start walking.
> I was reading "Right brained children in a Left Brained World" and
> late walking is a sign of right brained tendancies.
> It's a question asked when people are trying to diagnose ADD.
>
> I started reading the book because someone sent me an online test
> for right brain, left brain or middle brain.
> The book deals with kids in the system so it's hard to relate to the
> problems these kids endure. It's frustrating too. I'm pretty sure
> my son would have been one of these kids, but he hasn't had any of
> the crap that they give as examples, so I just have to guess how he
> would probably react. Then I get to feeling really sad about these
> poor kids. I can't imagine living that life. (as the parent of
> these kids)
> I stopped reading it.
>
> Joanna
>