Introduction: Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
Jenniffer Baltzell
Hello all.
I've recently joined your group and wanted to write a short introduction.
I'm Jenniffer, wife to Dan, mom to Jonathan Peter (8), Benjamen David (soon
to be 6) and Nicholas Jacob (soon to be 4). We live in a very rural area of
Harpers Ferry, in a cabin midway down a mountain that has the Shenandoah
snaking around its base. We have one human neighbor on our gravel road and
more animal neighbors than we can count. They help themselves to our garden
and provide the boys with hours of entertainment daily.
My husband works in NOVA, about a 1-1.5 hours away and I stay home with the
boys. We're a single car family, so we're a bit isolated, and not hurting
for it, I think. We're never wanting for things to do.
We went from unschooling to relaxed homeschooling (wherein I convinced
myself that I was following their lead, but really, I was influencing their
decisions in subtle and not-so-subtle ways) and I would like to get back to
unschooling. I see tension creeping into our days and I see myself getting
in the way of the boys' natural love of learning, which is something I never
want to happen. All of the boys taught themselves to nurse, to crawl, to
walk, to talk, to sleep through the night, to use the potty, and more than I
can list, all when they were ready. Jonathan Peter taught himself to read
before his third birthday, Benjamen David was climbing impossible structures
when he was a toddler, and Nicholas Jacob was walking at 7 months old. I
don't know why I thought I could improve on that, but I know my own
insecurities and fears were motivating me.
Today we're deschooling, raking leaves outside, playing in the yard, having
a picnic lunch, blowing bubbles, and taking a walk later on to see what's
blooming on the mountain.
I look forward to getting to know you all and I've already been inspired and
rejuvenated by your posts.
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com/
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've recently joined your group and wanted to write a short introduction.
I'm Jenniffer, wife to Dan, mom to Jonathan Peter (8), Benjamen David (soon
to be 6) and Nicholas Jacob (soon to be 4). We live in a very rural area of
Harpers Ferry, in a cabin midway down a mountain that has the Shenandoah
snaking around its base. We have one human neighbor on our gravel road and
more animal neighbors than we can count. They help themselves to our garden
and provide the boys with hours of entertainment daily.
My husband works in NOVA, about a 1-1.5 hours away and I stay home with the
boys. We're a single car family, so we're a bit isolated, and not hurting
for it, I think. We're never wanting for things to do.
We went from unschooling to relaxed homeschooling (wherein I convinced
myself that I was following their lead, but really, I was influencing their
decisions in subtle and not-so-subtle ways) and I would like to get back to
unschooling. I see tension creeping into our days and I see myself getting
in the way of the boys' natural love of learning, which is something I never
want to happen. All of the boys taught themselves to nurse, to crawl, to
walk, to talk, to sleep through the night, to use the potty, and more than I
can list, all when they were ready. Jonathan Peter taught himself to read
before his third birthday, Benjamen David was climbing impossible structures
when he was a toddler, and Nicholas Jacob was walking at 7 months old. I
don't know why I thought I could improve on that, but I know my own
insecurities and fears were motivating me.
Today we're deschooling, raking leaves outside, playing in the yard, having
a picnic lunch, blowing bubbles, and taking a walk later on to see what's
blooming on the mountain.
I look forward to getting to know you all and I've already been inspired and
rejuvenated by your posts.
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com/
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freepsgal
> We live in a very rural area of Harpers Ferry, in a cabin midwayHi Jenniffer, and welcome to the group! Your home sounds like my idea
> down a mountain that has the Shenandoah snaking around its base. >
> Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
vacation spot! Woo! :)
Beth M.
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 18, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:
learning, or just knowing how. They knew how to nurse. They learned
to walk and to talk. They didn't teach themselves. No one taught
them. They just figured it out.
It might not seem like it would make any difference, but I'm sure it
will.
Glad you're here,
Sandra
> All of the boys taught themselves to nurse, to crawl, toOne suggestion for improvement is to think of what they did as
> walk, to talk, to sleep through the night, to use the potty, and
> more than I
> can list, all when they were ready. Jonathan Peter taught himself
> to read
> before his third birthday, Benjamen David was climbing impossible
> structures
> when he was a toddler, and Nicholas Jacob was walking at 7 months
> old. I
> don't know why I thought I could improve on that, but I know my own
> insecurities and fears were motivating me.
learning, or just knowing how. They knew how to nurse. They learned
to walk and to talk. They didn't teach themselves. No one taught
them. They just figured it out.
It might not seem like it would make any difference, but I'm sure it
will.
Glad you're here,
Sandra
Su Penn
> On Apr 18, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:I wonder why it's important to mention their ages when they did these
>
> Jonathan Peter taught himself
> > to read
> > before his third birthday, Benjamen David was climbing impossible
> > structures
> > when he was a toddler, and Nicholas Jacob was walking at 7 months
> > old. I
> > don't know why I thought I could improve on that, but I know my own
> > insecurities and fears were motivating me.
things.
Jenniffer Baltzell
I think I mentioned their ages to underscore to myself that they were doing
remarkable things at early ages and continue to be remarkable children,
independent of my influence (and sometimes despite it), before I ever
started "trying to teach them", before I started feeling pressure to guide
them in a given direction. Maybe you're picking up on an intention that I
haven't considered?
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
remarkable things at early ages and continue to be remarkable children,
independent of my influence (and sometimes despite it), before I ever
started "trying to teach them", before I started feeling pressure to guide
them in a given direction. Maybe you're picking up on an intention that I
haven't considered?
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
On 4/19/06, Su Penn <supenn@...> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 18, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:
> >
> > Jonathan Peter taught himself
> > > to read
> > > before his third birthday, Benjamen David was climbing impossible
> > > structures
> > > when he was a toddler, and Nicholas Jacob was walking at 7 months
> > > old. I
> > > don't know why I thought I could improve on that, but I know my own
> > > insecurities and fears were motivating me.
>
> I wonder why it's important to mention their ages when they did these
> things.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On Apr 19, 2006, at 9:17 PM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:
seeming remarkable in that way was carrying weight in terms of, "They
must be OK because they did this so early," versus, say, "He taught
himself to read at the age of 7" (which would, I realize, be you
predicting the future <g>). Like, would unschooling seem as OK to you
if the kids were on a more typical, or even late, time table? Would
their accomplishments and learning be as visible if they weren't
remarkable for their ages?
Or perhaps I'm projecting my own issues with "precociousness." I have
an acquaintance who, for a good 18 months, worked into every
conversation that her daughter was a self-taught early reader. As her
daughter got older, and it became less remarkable that she knew how
to read, my acquaintance would work in the time line. Sort of like this:
Me: Would you and the kids like to come to the zoo with us on Friday?
Her: We'd love to, if I can get Brianna's nose out of a book! Ever
since she taught herself to read six months ago, all she wants to do
is read, read, read, one chapter book after another.
It got more and more obnoxious as the months passed <g>.
I think, too, I was wondering about mentioning the early ages because
this is an issue I see myself needing to be mindful of. My oldest is
not quite five, and I think it will be hard for me if he's one of
those kids who doesn't read fluently until he's 8, 9, 10.
Also, I got a lot of attention as a kid for being precocious, and
that kind of attention can be damaging. It was for me. I'm working
really hard not to get invested in my kids being "advanced." Or,
alternately, not to think they're behind when they're actually
developmentally typical (my oldest was almost 2 before I found out
that most kids don't read at 3 or 4--in retrospect, it should have
been obvious to me that most kids don't start kindergarten reading
fluently, but I did and somehow I thought that was just the norm).
Possibly not your issue at all, but something I picked up on because
I have to be attentive to my own history and assumptions about
developmental time tables in order to avoid passing crap on to my kids.
Su
> I think I mentioned their ages to underscore to myself that theyOr maybe not! I just wondered whether them doing things very early or
> were doing
> remarkable things at early ages and continue to be remarkable
> children,
> independent of my influence (and sometimes despite it), before I ever
> started "trying to teach them", before I started feeling pressure
> to guide
> them in a given direction. Maybe you're picking up on an intention
> that I
> haven't considered?
seeming remarkable in that way was carrying weight in terms of, "They
must be OK because they did this so early," versus, say, "He taught
himself to read at the age of 7" (which would, I realize, be you
predicting the future <g>). Like, would unschooling seem as OK to you
if the kids were on a more typical, or even late, time table? Would
their accomplishments and learning be as visible if they weren't
remarkable for their ages?
Or perhaps I'm projecting my own issues with "precociousness." I have
an acquaintance who, for a good 18 months, worked into every
conversation that her daughter was a self-taught early reader. As her
daughter got older, and it became less remarkable that she knew how
to read, my acquaintance would work in the time line. Sort of like this:
Me: Would you and the kids like to come to the zoo with us on Friday?
Her: We'd love to, if I can get Brianna's nose out of a book! Ever
since she taught herself to read six months ago, all she wants to do
is read, read, read, one chapter book after another.
It got more and more obnoxious as the months passed <g>.
I think, too, I was wondering about mentioning the early ages because
this is an issue I see myself needing to be mindful of. My oldest is
not quite five, and I think it will be hard for me if he's one of
those kids who doesn't read fluently until he's 8, 9, 10.
Also, I got a lot of attention as a kid for being precocious, and
that kind of attention can be damaging. It was for me. I'm working
really hard not to get invested in my kids being "advanced." Or,
alternately, not to think they're behind when they're actually
developmentally typical (my oldest was almost 2 before I found out
that most kids don't read at 3 or 4--in retrospect, it should have
been obvious to me that most kids don't start kindergarten reading
fluently, but I did and somehow I thought that was just the norm).
Possibly not your issue at all, but something I picked up on because
I have to be attentive to my own history and assumptions about
developmental time tables in order to avoid passing crap on to my kids.
Su
Jenniffer Baltzell
No, I think you're right; that's something that I definitely need to be
mindful of, as well. Suspending judgment is something I struggle with
daily, and I'll need to be vigilant as we go through the process of
deschooling. Maybe the deschooling itself will give me the time and space
to focus on the many, many issues I need to sort out for myself.
Thank you for the question and for sharing your insight.
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
mindful of, as well. Suspending judgment is something I struggle with
daily, and I'll need to be vigilant as we go through the process of
deschooling. Maybe the deschooling itself will give me the time and space
to focus on the many, many issues I need to sort out for myself.
Thank you for the question and for sharing your insight.
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
On 4/19/06, Su Penn <supenn@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 19, 2006, at 9:17 PM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:
>
> > I think I mentioned their ages to underscore to myself that they
> > were doing
> > remarkable things at early ages and continue to be remarkable
> > children,
> > independent of my influence (and sometimes despite it), before I ever
> > started "trying to teach them", before I started feeling pressure
> > to guide
> > them in a given direction. Maybe you're picking up on an intention
> > that I
> > haven't considered?
>
> Or maybe not! I just wondered whether them doing things very early or
> seeming remarkable in that way was carrying weight in terms of, "They
> must be OK because they did this so early," versus, say, "He taught
> himself to read at the age of 7" (which would, I realize, be you
> predicting the future <g>). Like, would unschooling seem as OK to you
> if the kids were on a more typical, or even late, time table? Would
> their accomplishments and learning be as visible if they weren't
> remarkable for their ages?
>
> Or perhaps I'm projecting my own issues with "precociousness." I have
> an acquaintance who, for a good 18 months, worked into every
> conversation that her daughter was a self-taught early reader. As her
> daughter got older, and it became less remarkable that she knew how
> to read, my acquaintance would work in the time line. Sort of like this:
>
> Me: Would you and the kids like to come to the zoo with us on Friday?
>
> Her: We'd love to, if I can get Brianna's nose out of a book! Ever
> since she taught herself to read six months ago, all she wants to do
> is read, read, read, one chapter book after another.
>
> It got more and more obnoxious as the months passed <g>.
>
> I think, too, I was wondering about mentioning the early ages because
> this is an issue I see myself needing to be mindful of. My oldest is
> not quite five, and I think it will be hard for me if he's one of
> those kids who doesn't read fluently until he's 8, 9, 10.
>
> Also, I got a lot of attention as a kid for being precocious, and
> that kind of attention can be damaging. It was for me. I'm working
> really hard not to get invested in my kids being "advanced." Or,
> alternately, not to think they're behind when they're actually
> developmentally typical (my oldest was almost 2 before I found out
> that most kids don't read at 3 or 4--in retrospect, it should have
> been obvious to me that most kids don't start kindergarten reading
> fluently, but I did and somehow I thought that was just the norm).
>
> Possibly not your issue at all, but something I picked up on because
> I have to be attentive to my own history and assumptions about
> developmental time tables in order to avoid passing crap on to my kids.
>
> Su
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 19, 2006, at 7:17 PM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:
Maybe the intent of mentioning it was to get you to consider whether
you're being competitive at any level, and whether you're taking any
of your own worth as a mother from their "remarkable" milestones.
Walking isn't remarkable. All healthy, uninjured three year olds
walk. It's not possible to pick out those who've been walking the
longest, and they probably haven't walked any greater distance.
Still just back and forth in the house. <g>
If you're charting accomplishments (if you continue to), the stress
you produce, or the motherly pride, will be detrimental to peaceful,
natural learning-for-fun unschooling.
Sandra
> I think I mentioned their ages to underscore to myself that they----------------
> were doing
> remarkable things at early ages and continue to be remarkable
> children,
> independent of my influence (and sometimes despite it), before I ever
> started "trying to teach them", before I started feeling pressure
> to guide
> them in a given direction. Maybe you're picking up on an intention
> that I
> haven't considered?
Maybe the intent of mentioning it was to get you to consider whether
you're being competitive at any level, and whether you're taking any
of your own worth as a mother from their "remarkable" milestones.
Walking isn't remarkable. All healthy, uninjured three year olds
walk. It's not possible to pick out those who've been walking the
longest, and they probably haven't walked any greater distance.
Still just back and forth in the house. <g>
If you're charting accomplishments (if you continue to), the stress
you produce, or the motherly pride, will be detrimental to peaceful,
natural learning-for-fun unschooling.
Sandra
lilith_pouia
--- In [email protected], Su Penn <supenn@...> wrote:
thought i would share my experiences so far. I started helping my
older son learn phonics when he was four. He loved it and consistently
wanted to practice, and do worksheets. He didn't begin reading
fluently until past the age of six. I was quite concerned at the time
that he was behind, because i couldn't figure out for the longest time
why he knew all the sounds but had trouble putting them together. One
day it just clicked for him and he picked it up very quickly beyond
that point. My younger son is four now and has very little desire to
even learn the alphabet. Then i became worried about him being behind.
Since joining this group i have realized they are both fine and i
shouldn't be worried about any of it, them having different learning
styles than each other, or taking things at their own paces. I think i
will be okay with it now if my younger son doesn't read until an older
age. Hearing other people's experiences helped put it in perspective
for me. As long as i continue offering him oppertunies to play and
learn he will read when he's ready. That will be okay with me.
Probably not okay with my Mother, but they aren't her kids.
Lilith
>Su
>
>
>
> I think, too, I was wondering about mentioning the early ages because
> this is an issue I see myself needing to be mindful of. My oldest is
> not quite five, and I think it will be hard for me if he's one of
> those kids who doesn't read fluently until he's 8, 9, 10.
>
>On the topic of early reading, or reading at all for that matter i
thought i would share my experiences so far. I started helping my
older son learn phonics when he was four. He loved it and consistently
wanted to practice, and do worksheets. He didn't begin reading
fluently until past the age of six. I was quite concerned at the time
that he was behind, because i couldn't figure out for the longest time
why he knew all the sounds but had trouble putting them together. One
day it just clicked for him and he picked it up very quickly beyond
that point. My younger son is four now and has very little desire to
even learn the alphabet. Then i became worried about him being behind.
Since joining this group i have realized they are both fine and i
shouldn't be worried about any of it, them having different learning
styles than each other, or taking things at their own paces. I think i
will be okay with it now if my younger son doesn't read until an older
age. Hearing other people's experiences helped put it in perspective
for me. As long as i continue offering him oppertunies to play and
learn he will read when he's ready. That will be okay with me.
Probably not okay with my Mother, but they aren't her kids.
Lilith
lilith_pouia
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
children are unique in their talents and special in their own ways.
Maybe she finds joy in maveling at her children and their
accomplishments. There is nothing wrong with a Mother feeling proud of
her children and the things she sees them learn to do. My sister's 2
month old is learning to hold himself up well when layed on his
stomache and that makes her happy. Everything our children accomplish
makes us feel good. It's not always someone trying to boast when they
want to share that with others. Maybe it just seemed amazing to HER,
that they each learned their own different skills at different ages.
Not trying to be nosy or anything, just offering a different perspective.
Lilith
>It's also possible that maybe Jennifer just noticed early on that all
>
>
> ----------------
>
> Maybe the intent of mentioning it was to get you to consider whether
> you're being competitive at any level, and whether you're taking any
> of your own worth as a mother from their "remarkable" milestones.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
children are unique in their talents and special in their own ways.
Maybe she finds joy in maveling at her children and their
accomplishments. There is nothing wrong with a Mother feeling proud of
her children and the things she sees them learn to do. My sister's 2
month old is learning to hold himself up well when layed on his
stomache and that makes her happy. Everything our children accomplish
makes us feel good. It's not always someone trying to boast when they
want to share that with others. Maybe it just seemed amazing to HER,
that they each learned their own different skills at different ages.
Not trying to be nosy or anything, just offering a different perspective.
Lilith
Mary Beth Daught
After working for several years with severely physically and mentally
handicapped children, I learned to be excited when the kids I worked with
made very small accomplishments and we helped the staff recognize each one.
When the staff saw that they were doing more than just maintaining these
kids, they began to take more interest in them as individuals and to
celebrate that.
When I became a parent for the first time, I could hardly believe how
quickly and easily almost anything came to my first child. It is marvelous
at any age. So, I guess you could see it as more like a celebration and
mindfulness of their accomplishments, rather than comparison or boasting.
Mary Beth
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of lilith_pouia
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Introduction: Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
handicapped children, I learned to be excited when the kids I worked with
made very small accomplishments and we helped the staff recognize each one.
When the staff saw that they were doing more than just maintaining these
kids, they began to take more interest in them as individuals and to
celebrate that.
When I became a parent for the first time, I could hardly believe how
quickly and easily almost anything came to my first child. It is marvelous
at any age. So, I guess you could see it as more like a celebration and
mindfulness of their accomplishments, rather than comparison or boasting.
Mary Beth
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of lilith_pouia
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Introduction: Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> ----------------
>
> Maybe the intent of mentioning it was to get you to consider whether
> you're being competitive at any level, and whether you're taking any
> of your own worth as a mother from their "remarkable" milestones.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
It's also possible that maybe Jennifer just noticed early on that all
children are unique in their talents and special in their own ways.
Maybe she finds joy in maveling at her children and their
accomplishments. There is nothing wrong with a Mother feeling proud of
her children and the things she sees them learn to do. My sister's 2
month old is learning to hold himself up well when layed on his
stomache and that makes her happy. Everything our children accomplish
makes us feel good. It's not always someone trying to boast when they
want to share that with others. Maybe it just seemed amazing to HER,
that they each learned their own different skills at different ages.
Not trying to be nosy or anything, just offering a different perspective.
Lilith
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenniffer Baltzell
On 4/20/06, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
their precociousness in learning those things (which is why I chose those,
in particular to make my point), and like I said, they did it before I began
interfering with them. My point was to underscore the fact that they learn
how to do things just fine on their own.
Walking isn't remarkable. All healthy, uninjured three year olds
understand why I chose the word remarkable. Or maybe not. Maybe it is one
of those things that amazes a mother and no one else.
If you're charting accomplishments (if you continue to), the stress
there will ever be a time when I stop noticing their unique skills and
talents and interests. I wonder how one eliminates motherly pride
completely, if it's possible, and what the advantages are to doing so. I
can certainly see pitfalls in an overabundance of motherly pride and the
damage it could cause, but I wonder if that pride has no place at all in an
unschooling family's life.
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I think my intention was truly just the opposite. I had nothing to do with
>
> On Apr 19, 2006, at 7:17 PM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:
>
> > I think I mentioned their ages to underscore to myself that they
> > were doing
> > remarkable things at early ages and continue to be remarkable
> > children,
> > independent of my influence (and sometimes despite it), before I ever
> > started "trying to teach them", before I started feeling pressure
> > to guide
> > them in a given direction. Maybe you're picking up on an intention
> > that I
> > haven't considered?
>
> ----------------
>
> Maybe the intent of mentioning it was to get you to consider whether
> you're being competitive at any level, and whether you're taking any
> of your own worth as a mother from their "remarkable" milestones.
>
their precociousness in learning those things (which is why I chose those,
in particular to make my point), and like I said, they did it before I began
interfering with them. My point was to underscore the fact that they learn
how to do things just fine on their own.
Walking isn't remarkable. All healthy, uninjured three year olds
> walk. It's not possible to pick out those who've been walking theIf you've ever seen a wee 8 month old climbing monkey bars, you might
> longest, and they probably haven't walked any greater distance.
> Still just back and forth in the house. <g>
>
understand why I chose the word remarkable. Or maybe not. Maybe it is one
of those things that amazes a mother and no one else.
If you're charting accomplishments (if you continue to), the stress
> you produce, or the motherly pride, will be detrimental to peaceful,I think I do see you point about suspending judgment, but I'm not sure if
> natural learning-for-fun unschooling.
>
there will ever be a time when I stop noticing their unique skills and
talents and interests. I wonder how one eliminates motherly pride
completely, if it's possible, and what the advantages are to doing so. I
can certainly see pitfalls in an overabundance of motherly pride and the
damage it could cause, but I wonder if that pride has no place at all in an
unschooling family's life.
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 20, 2006, at 8:02 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:
If you want to participate on this list, it would be better if you
would share your best experiences, ask good questions and make
suggestions, and NOT try to insult me or anyone else in any snarky
fashion for the responses we're giving.
-=-It's also possible that maybe Jennifer just noticed early on that all
children are unique in their talents and special in their own ways.
Maybe she finds joy in maveling at her children and their
accomplishments. -=-
Of course that's true, and nothing in what I wrote or in the original
question (I don't even remember who asked it; it doesn't matter,
we're here to talk about ideas, not people) suggested otherwise.
-=-There is nothing wrong with a Mother feeling proud of
her children and the things she sees them learn to do. -=-
There CAN potentially be something wrong with it. If you don't
believe that's true, go back up this thread and read it again.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with it if the mother involved needs
things to brag about at her bragging sessions, wherever they are.
For the purposes of unschooling (and this list) there can be a
problem if the mom loves to tell people how young her child was, how
quickly he "taught himself," etc. It might not be a problem, but
each mom can think within herself whether those brags are about the
joy she felt, the relief, or whether there was a feeling of smugness,
as though she did that or it made her a better mom.
-=-Everything our children accomplish
makes us feel good. -=-
Try to word things in a more personal and less general way, when you
can remember to do so. Speaking for all us us isn't as good as
sharing your own experiences.
Sandra
> . Everything our children accomplishIt's not always ANYthing.
> makes us feel good. It's not always someone trying to boast when they
> want to share that with others.
If you want to participate on this list, it would be better if you
would share your best experiences, ask good questions and make
suggestions, and NOT try to insult me or anyone else in any snarky
fashion for the responses we're giving.
-=-It's also possible that maybe Jennifer just noticed early on that all
children are unique in their talents and special in their own ways.
Maybe she finds joy in maveling at her children and their
accomplishments. -=-
Of course that's true, and nothing in what I wrote or in the original
question (I don't even remember who asked it; it doesn't matter,
we're here to talk about ideas, not people) suggested otherwise.
-=-There is nothing wrong with a Mother feeling proud of
her children and the things she sees them learn to do. -=-
There CAN potentially be something wrong with it. If you don't
believe that's true, go back up this thread and read it again.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with it if the mother involved needs
things to brag about at her bragging sessions, wherever they are.
For the purposes of unschooling (and this list) there can be a
problem if the mom loves to tell people how young her child was, how
quickly he "taught himself," etc. It might not be a problem, but
each mom can think within herself whether those brags are about the
joy she felt, the relief, or whether there was a feeling of smugness,
as though she did that or it made her a better mom.
-=-Everything our children accomplish
makes us feel good. -=-
Try to word things in a more personal and less general way, when you
can remember to do so. Speaking for all us us isn't as good as
sharing your own experiences.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 20, 2006, at 8:25 AM, Mary Beth Daught wrote:
And with first or only children, moms often write down when things
happen, and get really excited. They're learning how to be moms and
it's all new and thrilling.
There are outside factors, though, that can turn it all into
comparisons and criticisms of the mom or of the child, and those are
worth avoiding. If the mom's heart and emotions are really in the
celebration and marvel mode, it's not a problem.
It was a good idea, I think, that someone asked whey/whether the ages
were stated, just to get people to think about that. I doubt that
Olympic runners were the earliest walkers. It's really not a race
for babies.
Sandra
>True.
> When I became a parent for the first time, I could hardly believe how
> quickly and easily almost anything came to my first child. It is
> marvelous
> at any age. So, I guess you could see it as more like a
> celebration and
> mindfulness of their accomplishments, rather than comparison or
> boasting.
And with first or only children, moms often write down when things
happen, and get really excited. They're learning how to be moms and
it's all new and thrilling.
There are outside factors, though, that can turn it all into
comparisons and criticisms of the mom or of the child, and those are
worth avoiding. If the mom's heart and emotions are really in the
celebration and marvel mode, it's not a problem.
It was a good idea, I think, that someone asked whey/whether the ages
were stated, just to get people to think about that. I doubt that
Olympic runners were the earliest walkers. It's really not a race
for babies.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 20, 2006, at 8:27 AM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:
Neither all nor none.
Sandra
> Ihttp://sandradodd.com/balance
> can certainly see pitfalls in an overabundance of motherly pride
> and the
> damage it could cause, but I wonder if that pride has no place at
> all in an
> unschooling family's life.
Neither all nor none.
Sandra
Jenniffer Baltzell
I read your statement:
<<If you're charting accomplishments (if you continue to), the stress
you produce, or the motherly pride, will be detrimental to peaceful,
natural learning-for-fun unschooling.>>
as a definitive one. Charting will produce motherly pride which will be
detrimental to unschooling. That's what gave rise to my questioning.
Reading your article, I think that perhaps you didn't intend it to be as
definitive as I read it.
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
<<If you're charting accomplishments (if you continue to), the stress
you produce, or the motherly pride, will be detrimental to peaceful,
natural learning-for-fun unschooling.>>
as a definitive one. Charting will produce motherly pride which will be
detrimental to unschooling. That's what gave rise to my questioning.
Reading your article, I think that perhaps you didn't intend it to be as
definitive as I read it.
--
Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
http://octopigarden.blogspot.com
Listen, are you breathing just a little, and calling it a life? ~Mary Oliver
On 4/20/06, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 20, 2006, at 8:27 AM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:
>
> > I
> > can certainly see pitfalls in an overabundance of motherly pride
> > and the
> > damage it could cause, but I wonder if that pride has no place at
> > all in an
> > unschooling family's life.
>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/balance
>
> Neither all nor none.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 20, 2006, at 1:15 PM, Jenniffer Baltzell wrote:
I meant that to be contingent on the original idea, of whether the
exact age of a child at each accomplisment was going to be something
to celebrate or bemoan, that it won't be the best thing for good
unschooling.
If you can chart accomplishments without taking credit yourself, or
without feeling the need to pressure the child or hide the sad facts
from others, then my statement doesn't apply.
IF there's a danger, then it's a danger to unschooling.
If there's no danger in the mom's biochemical attachment to the
child's learning, then warning can be disregarded.
Sandra
> I read your statement:You're right.
>
> <<If you're charting accomplishments (if you continue to), the stress
> you produce, or the motherly pride, will be detrimental to peaceful,
> natural learning-for-fun unschooling.>>
>
> as a definitive one. Charting will produce motherly pride which
> will be
> detrimental to unschooling. That's what gave rise to my questioning.
> Reading your article, I think that perhaps you didn't intend it to
> be as
> definitive as I read it.
I meant that to be contingent on the original idea, of whether the
exact age of a child at each accomplisment was going to be something
to celebrate or bemoan, that it won't be the best thing for good
unschooling.
If you can chart accomplishments without taking credit yourself, or
without feeling the need to pressure the child or hide the sad facts
from others, then my statement doesn't apply.
IF there's a danger, then it's a danger to unschooling.
If there's no danger in the mom's biochemical attachment to the
child's learning, then warning can be disregarded.
Sandra
lilith_pouia
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Lilith
>That's not what i was trying to do. I'm sorry if you took it that way.
>
>
>
> If you want to participate on this list, it would be better if you
> would share your best experiences, ask good questions and make
> suggestions, and NOT try to insult me or anyone else in any snarky
> fashion for the responses we're giving.
>
>
> Sandra
>
Lilith
freepsgal
> I can certainly see pitfalls in an overabundance of motherly prideOh gosh, I hope not! I *love* watching my children's eyes light up
> and the damage it could cause, but I wonder if that pride has no
> place at all in an unschooling family's life.
> Jenniffer in Harpers Ferry
with an Aha! moment! I even love it when they do something again
and again simply because they enjoy it! This morning, my dd8,
Allison, figured out a math problem before me. I was very proud
that she figured it out quickly, and felt sheepish when she had to
explain it to me because I still couldn't figure it out! I don't
know if she has a more mathematical bent than I do, or if she's just
not encumbered by all the complications impressed upon me over the
years. But it took her less than 10 seconds and I was amazed! I
oohed and aahed and told her that was brilliant thinking. I don't
feel that was a bad thing to do. She was thrilled with herself! I
agree with you that an overabundance could be a problem, but surely
it's human nature to be proud of our offspring! My kids rock! (Of
course yours do too. *laugh*)
FWIW, when my DH got home, I showed him the problem because I was so
proud of our daughter and he showed us another way to look at it
that I hadn't thought about either! So this time both my daughter
and I ooohed and aahed over Dad's brilliant thinking! :)
Beth M.
Angela S.
I think there is a difference between those happy (proud) feelings we have
when our children master something that might have been difficult once (or
that they worked hard at) and between the pride that one feels when one
feels responsible for having taught a child something. I am not sure I can
differentiate this clearly. I know mothers who not only feel a sense of
pride ( a gloaty pride ~ my kid did X, insinuating that she is better than
your child) when their child masters something (riding a bike or reading,
for instance ) but who also feel a sense of shame if their child isn't up to
standards. From what I have observed, when one feel responsible for what
their child learns (or not) it makes it very difficult if not impossible to
unschool. The parent has far too much riding on what their child knows or
can do. Some parents define themselves by what their children can or can't
do.
I feel a sense of pride (a shared joy, really) when my children master some
skill that might have been hard for them at one time. I feel a sense of
pride (elation, joy) when they do something that our society finds valuable
sometimes. (I was proud of them for doing well at Pony Club Quiz Rally
despite their lack of schooling but not just so I could tell all my
relatives that they did well but because I shared their joy. I was also
proud of them for participating in Quiz Rally because at one time standing
up in front of a group of people was very scary to them.) When they try
something and fail at it, I am also proud of them for trying.
But my ego isn't attached to the outcome of what they do. If they try
something and fail at it, I am not ashamed of them. If they try something
and excel at it, I do not feel like I can now hold my head up any higher
than before. It doesn't change how I feel about them nor how I feel about
how other people perceive me.
I know one mom who tried to unschool. She really didn't get it on a very
deep level though and she was so concerned with how other people saw her (as
reflected by what her child knew) that she did great Unschooling until her
child no longer appeared to be ahead of her peers. It all fell apart when
the child no longer seemed to excel by her standards. She is now in school.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
when our children master something that might have been difficult once (or
that they worked hard at) and between the pride that one feels when one
feels responsible for having taught a child something. I am not sure I can
differentiate this clearly. I know mothers who not only feel a sense of
pride ( a gloaty pride ~ my kid did X, insinuating that she is better than
your child) when their child masters something (riding a bike or reading,
for instance ) but who also feel a sense of shame if their child isn't up to
standards. From what I have observed, when one feel responsible for what
their child learns (or not) it makes it very difficult if not impossible to
unschool. The parent has far too much riding on what their child knows or
can do. Some parents define themselves by what their children can or can't
do.
I feel a sense of pride (a shared joy, really) when my children master some
skill that might have been hard for them at one time. I feel a sense of
pride (elation, joy) when they do something that our society finds valuable
sometimes. (I was proud of them for doing well at Pony Club Quiz Rally
despite their lack of schooling but not just so I could tell all my
relatives that they did well but because I shared their joy. I was also
proud of them for participating in Quiz Rally because at one time standing
up in front of a group of people was very scary to them.) When they try
something and fail at it, I am also proud of them for trying.
But my ego isn't attached to the outcome of what they do. If they try
something and fail at it, I am not ashamed of them. If they try something
and excel at it, I do not feel like I can now hold my head up any higher
than before. It doesn't change how I feel about them nor how I feel about
how other people perceive me.
I know one mom who tried to unschool. She really didn't get it on a very
deep level though and she was so concerned with how other people saw her (as
reflected by what her child knew) that she did great Unschooling until her
child no longer appeared to be ahead of her peers. It all fell apart when
the child no longer seemed to excel by her standards. She is now in school.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freepsgal
> From what I have observed, when one feel responsible for whatI think I know what you mean. The first year we homeschooled, I went
> their child learns (or not) it makes it very difficult if not
> impossible to unschool.
> Angela
from a textbook packaged program to unschooling. I was talking to
another homeschooler and she voiced her approval of my choice, saying
that my young kids, ages 4 and 6 at the time, should be free to learn
naturally. Having her "approve" was weird enough, but then I
understood when she continued with the next statement that she too
unschooled her child when he was much younger, but that she went to a
textbook program when school actually mattered because unschooling
really doesn't work for true school-aged children. I remember her
going on and on about what kids HAVE TO know, blah blah blah. :)
Beth M.
Gold Standard
>>taught himself to readThis is not directed at the original poster, but I also wanted to add that
>>before his third birthday,__________was climbing impossible structures
>>when he was a toddler, and ___________was walking at 7 months old.<<
when other people read or hear these activities connected to ages, it often
makes them think about their own children, and whether they would measure up
to this person who is caring enough about the ages of the activities to
mention them.
I think one reason people get excited when their children do something
younger than other children is because there is still a connection to ideas
of "normal standards"...overgeneralized standards that are made that way so
that classrooms can have the same material for each age group (and maybe for
other reasons I'm not thinking of right now). If we step away from those
standards, it is easier to see that each child is individual and will do
things in their own ways at their own times. And each one is so cool no
matter what age they did such and such.
One question to ask may be: would the pride be felt if the ages the
activities "achieved" were older? If you take away the ages, can you still
say the same thing excitedly? (not to original poster, just an idea out
there) Like, "So and so learned to read!" Or "So and so learned to walk!"
It might be kind of silly saying the second one about a four year old
though.
Jacki
Bling Williams
Gold Standard <jacki@...> wrote: >>taught himself to read
when other people read or hear these activities connected to ages, it often
makes them think about their own children, and whether they would measure up
to this person who is caring enough about the ages of the activities to
mention them.
I think one reason people get excited when their children do something
younger than other children is because there is still a connection to ideas
of "normal standards"...overgeneralized standards that are made that way so
that classrooms can have the same material for each age group (and maybe for
other reasons I'm not thinking of right now). If we step away from those
standards, it is easier to see that each child is individual and will do
things in their own ways at their own times. And each one is so cool no
matter what age they did such and such.
One question to ask may be: would the pride be felt if the ages the
activities "achieved" were older? If you take away the ages, can you still
say the same thing excitedly? (not to original poster, just an idea out
there) Like, "So and so learned to read!" Or "So and so learned to walk!"
It might be kind of silly saying the second one about a four year old
though.
Jacki
Well said. Comparing children is all about the parents self-esteem.
Mind you, when my 2yo learned to hold her head up a few weeks ago I did call all my friends and tell them! You could tell they were underwhelmed but its a huge acheivment for a spastic quadraplegic child who the docs said would be a vegetable. C was pretty excited too and grinned like a loon.
Having C has taught me more about expectations and treating each child as an individual than anything I've ever done or read!
S
http://nobravery.cf.huffingtonpost.com/
www.celyn.org
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>before his third birthday,__________was climbing impossible structuresThis is not directed at the original poster, but I also wanted to add that
>>when he was a toddler, and ___________was walking at 7 months old.<<
when other people read or hear these activities connected to ages, it often
makes them think about their own children, and whether they would measure up
to this person who is caring enough about the ages of the activities to
mention them.
I think one reason people get excited when their children do something
younger than other children is because there is still a connection to ideas
of "normal standards"...overgeneralized standards that are made that way so
that classrooms can have the same material for each age group (and maybe for
other reasons I'm not thinking of right now). If we step away from those
standards, it is easier to see that each child is individual and will do
things in their own ways at their own times. And each one is so cool no
matter what age they did such and such.
One question to ask may be: would the pride be felt if the ages the
activities "achieved" were older? If you take away the ages, can you still
say the same thing excitedly? (not to original poster, just an idea out
there) Like, "So and so learned to read!" Or "So and so learned to walk!"
It might be kind of silly saying the second one about a four year old
though.
Jacki
Well said. Comparing children is all about the parents self-esteem.
Mind you, when my 2yo learned to hold her head up a few weeks ago I did call all my friends and tell them! You could tell they were underwhelmed but its a huge acheivment for a spastic quadraplegic child who the docs said would be a vegetable. C was pretty excited too and grinned like a loon.
Having C has taught me more about expectations and treating each child as an individual than anything I've ever done or read!
S
http://nobravery.cf.huffingtonpost.com/
www.celyn.org
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
s.waynforth
> Like, "So and so learned to read!" Or "So and so learned to walk!"Among th Ache (a hunter gatherer group in Paraguay) children don't tend
>
> It might be kind of silly saying the second one about a four year old
> though.
>
>
to begin to walk until they are around 4. Because of environmental
dangers, like jaguars and snakes and the like, it is safer for a parent
or older sibling to carry children with them much of the time. Because
of diet restrictions, Ache children and adults are smaller than most
American or British children I know, so it is less of a back breaking
labor to tote a 3 1/2 year old out to go foraging in the jungle. If a
toddler toddles off into the jungle, the likelihood that they will be
found alive again is pretty low.
Schuyler
Melissa
Having children with disabilities, I can say it is never silly to
feel pride when your child achieves. I know several people who's
children didn't start walking until two or three, and I nearly burst
when my Bre said Mama for the first time at age five! One would hope
that any parent could feel equally pleased for their children. :-)
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
feel pride when your child achieves. I know several people who's
children didn't start walking until two or three, and I nearly burst
when my Bre said Mama for the first time at age five! One would hope
that any parent could feel equally pleased for their children. :-)
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Apr 21, 2006, at 12:45 AM, Gold Standard wrote:
>
> One question to ask may be: would the pride be felt if the ages the
> activities "achieved" were older? If you take away the ages, can
> you still
> say the same thing excitedly? (not to original poster, just an idea
> out
> there) Like, "So and so learned to read!" Or "So and so learned to
> walk!"
>
> It might be kind of silly saying the second one about a four year old
> though.
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 20, 2006, at 11:45 PM, Gold Standard wrote:
thrilled if he ever walked, while it's a little of a ho-hum thing,
comparatively, in a third or fourth child if you were expecting it.
I was very excited when Kirby started walking, because it was the
first time I'd ever had a baby and everything was exciting. Marty
didn't crawl. He had a much more efficient way of getting around,
sitting up, holding something in one hand and lifting and launching
along with the other arm and the opposite leg. He was fast and
upright early, and could see where he was going, and travel long
distances. When he stood up and walked I wasn't nearly as happy as
the first time, because I had kinda counted on him being a short-
range floor guy for a while, as Kirby was three. With Holly, I knew
she would walk and she did. No thrill or disappointment either.
Years ago a friend's baby had a hip problem and didn't walk "on
time," and they put her in a big horse-shoe looking cast from the
waist down, with a stick between the legs, which made her easy to
carry and made the whole thing more stable. I felt sorry for her,
naturally. But she learned to walk WITH IT ON, and so we had no
question than when it came off she'd be running and jumping pretty
soon. SO she was probably four when she first walked in such a way
that no one would know there had been earlier problems and I bet her
parents had sweet dreams and woke up relieved lots of days.
Sandra
> Or "So and so learned to walk!"If your child wasn't walking at three, you'd probably be TOTALLY
>
> It might be kind of silly saying the second one about a four year old
> though.
thrilled if he ever walked, while it's a little of a ho-hum thing,
comparatively, in a third or fourth child if you were expecting it.
I was very excited when Kirby started walking, because it was the
first time I'd ever had a baby and everything was exciting. Marty
didn't crawl. He had a much more efficient way of getting around,
sitting up, holding something in one hand and lifting and launching
along with the other arm and the opposite leg. He was fast and
upright early, and could see where he was going, and travel long
distances. When he stood up and walked I wasn't nearly as happy as
the first time, because I had kinda counted on him being a short-
range floor guy for a while, as Kirby was three. With Holly, I knew
she would walk and she did. No thrill or disappointment either.
Years ago a friend's baby had a hip problem and didn't walk "on
time," and they put her in a big horse-shoe looking cast from the
waist down, with a stick between the legs, which made her easy to
carry and made the whole thing more stable. I felt sorry for her,
naturally. But she learned to walk WITH IT ON, and so we had no
question than when it came off she'd be running and jumping pretty
soon. SO she was probably four when she first walked in such a way
that no one would know there had been earlier problems and I bet her
parents had sweet dreams and woke up relieved lots of days.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 21, 2006, at 4:12 AM, s.waynforth wrote:
Holly might've walked sooner if we hadn't been carrying her so much,
but we didn't mind. We had two other little ones, a couple of great
backpacks, and she rode me or her dad a long time. She was a preemie
and didn't get big very quickly, which was an advantage as it turned
out, in getting our family of five from one place to another. We
were really not in a hurry for her to walk.
Sandra
> BecauseMight it not just be genetics too? Cool info on the Ache.
> of diet restrictions, Ache children and adults are smaller than most
> American or British children I know
Holly might've walked sooner if we hadn't been carrying her so much,
but we didn't mind. We had two other little ones, a couple of great
backpacks, and she rode me or her dad a long time. She was a preemie
and didn't get big very quickly, which was an advantage as it turned
out, in getting our family of five from one place to another. We
were really not in a hurry for her to walk.
Sandra
s.waynforth
Sandra Dodd wrote:
Schuyler
>Nah, feed them an American diet and they are just as big.
> On Apr 21, 2006, at 4:12 AM, s.waynforth wrote:
>
> > Because
> > of diet restrictions, Ache children and adults are smaller than most
> > American or British children I know
>
> Might it not just be genetics too? Cool info on the Ache.
>
Schuyler
Julie W
>Ummmm, like say the child was only beginning to read at say 12 or 13 or
>One question to ask may be: would the pride be felt if the ages the
>activities "achieved" were older?
>
14 and still needed help and had
no desire to read books.
Julie W
damngoodvintage.com