grocery stores
lilith_pouia
We had our first outing today since begining our new parenting style
and i wasn't sure what to do. My kids like to run, be loud, and not
look out for others shoppers in the store. I tried to engage them in
helping shop and pick out foods but that only worked part of the time.
And i did take them out to the car instead of making them stand in
line which is hard for them. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Lilith
and i wasn't sure what to do. My kids like to run, be loud, and not
look out for others shoppers in the store. I tried to engage them in
helping shop and pick out foods but that only worked part of the time.
And i did take them out to the car instead of making them stand in
line which is hard for them. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Lilith
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 16, 2006, at 4:00 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:
front of you and one in the cart behind.
If they got restless you stayed too long. Maybe take one at a time
for a while.
Sandra
> We had our first outing today since begining our new parenting styleHold one, have one sitting in the cart, or have one in a cart in
> and i wasn't sure what to do. My kids like to run, be loud, and not
> look out for others shoppers in the store. I tried to engage them in
> helping shop and pick out foods but that only worked part of the time.
> And i did take them out to the car instead of making them stand in
> line which is hard for them. Any suggestions?
front of you and one in the cart behind.
If they got restless you stayed too long. Maybe take one at a time
for a while.
Sandra
lilith_pouia
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
freedom to restrain them in carts if they don't want to be? Just confused.
>Doesn't it go against the principle of not limiting them and their
>
>
>
> Hold one, have one sitting in the cart, or have one in a cart in
> front of you and one in the cart behind.
>
> If they got restless you stayed too long. Maybe take one at a time
> for a while.
>
> Sandra
>
freedom to restrain them in carts if they don't want to be? Just confused.
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 16, 2006, at 5:37 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:
Giving children choices isn't the same as saying "If he wants an
airplane, buy him one. If he wants to fly it without a license, let
him! "
Find happy, possible choices and offer them to your child smilingly,
joyfully. Don't make up "have to's" but don't ignore the ones that
are imposed from the outside.
If you "have to" wear shoes in a restaurant, it means that's a
condition of staying in the restaurant. If you CHOOSE to be in the
restaurant, then you choose to abide by their requirements.
Don't replace an old rule you didn't think about carefully with a new
rule you didn't think about carefully.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Please read there. Even if you read it before, now that you've gone
out in public and come back confused, maybe some things will jump out
at you that you didn't care about or understand before. Read what
Ben wrote. Read what Danielle wrote.
Sandra
> Doesn't it go against the principle of not limiting them and theirNo one has unlimited freedom. You don't own the store.
> freedom to restrain them in carts if they don't want to be? Just
> confused.
Giving children choices isn't the same as saying "If he wants an
airplane, buy him one. If he wants to fly it without a license, let
him! "
Find happy, possible choices and offer them to your child smilingly,
joyfully. Don't make up "have to's" but don't ignore the ones that
are imposed from the outside.
If you "have to" wear shoes in a restaurant, it means that's a
condition of staying in the restaurant. If you CHOOSE to be in the
restaurant, then you choose to abide by their requirements.
Don't replace an old rule you didn't think about carefully with a new
rule you didn't think about carefully.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Please read there. Even if you read it before, now that you've gone
out in public and come back confused, maybe some things will jump out
at you that you didn't care about or understand before. Read what
Ben wrote. Read what Danielle wrote.
Sandra
Julie W in AR
> parenting styleDon't take them?
> and i wasn't sure what to do. My kids like to run,
> be loud, and not
> look out for others shoppers in the store. ....Any
>suggestions?
Seriously. Do they have to go? Do they want to go?
Can your significant other do the shopping? Mine does
and I will love him forever for it.
I can see why kids love to run and be loud in grocery
stores, all those lines asiles....if only those other
folks would stay out of the way.
But the other folks are there and the store owners
expect you to act a certain way at their business.
Sometimes it is just best, for awhile, to avoid the
situations that kids find hard to maintain a certain
level of behavior. At times it is just a matter of age
and in a few months or a year they can handle it
better.
Julie W
www.damngoodvintage.com
Ren Allen
"Doesn't it go against the principle of not limiting them and their
freedom to restrain them in carts if they don't want to be? Just
confused."
I think it goes against the principle of treating others kindly to let
kids run wild through a store!! We aren't doing our children any
favors if we don't help them figure out etiquette and respect for the
common good in public places.
If my children can't handle shopping, I don't take them. Freedom is a
lot more than doing whatever you want, whenever you want. Constraint
and creative solutions are GOOD. Real life offers real limitations
that are sometimes for the common good. Helping children work within
those real limitations is better than letting them run wild where it
isn't appropriate!!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
freedom to restrain them in carts if they don't want to be? Just
confused."
I think it goes against the principle of treating others kindly to let
kids run wild through a store!! We aren't doing our children any
favors if we don't help them figure out etiquette and respect for the
common good in public places.
If my children can't handle shopping, I don't take them. Freedom is a
lot more than doing whatever you want, whenever you want. Constraint
and creative solutions are GOOD. Real life offers real limitations
that are sometimes for the common good. Helping children work within
those real limitations is better than letting them run wild where it
isn't appropriate!!
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Melissa
Well, I didn't like just leaving my kids home, because I thought they
would enjoy practicing, and I like spending time with them. Because
my daughter has autism, we needed to get lots of little trips in
because I didn't know if she would be able to go shopping without
work. We did, out of necessity, plan short trips. We did LOTS of
rewards. We go shopping probably four times a week for groceries
(granted it takes a lot to feed us all), and we always talk about
what we need before we go, they have lots of input on what we buy,
and they have lots of input about timing. If the kids have lots of
energy, we don't go then, we go to a park first. If they are too
tired, we cancel altogether and dh or I go after he gets home from work.
Take them late at night. Or early in the am. I like to go around 7am
with the kids, there's no one there except the workers or ol' folks,
both of whom pretty much don't care. I do expect the kids to stay
where they can see me, for safety reasons and for convenience (it
takes too long trying to find people over and over).
Dh and I both like to go for short trips, and take one kid with us.
We pick up two or three things, buy a soda, and sit on the curb and
talk. It's a cheap and easy date, and gives them one on one in a
store so that they have your full attention, they get to practice,
and they are learning how people act and how to buy stuff.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
would enjoy practicing, and I like spending time with them. Because
my daughter has autism, we needed to get lots of little trips in
because I didn't know if she would be able to go shopping without
work. We did, out of necessity, plan short trips. We did LOTS of
rewards. We go shopping probably four times a week for groceries
(granted it takes a lot to feed us all), and we always talk about
what we need before we go, they have lots of input on what we buy,
and they have lots of input about timing. If the kids have lots of
energy, we don't go then, we go to a park first. If they are too
tired, we cancel altogether and dh or I go after he gets home from work.
Take them late at night. Or early in the am. I like to go around 7am
with the kids, there's no one there except the workers or ol' folks,
both of whom pretty much don't care. I do expect the kids to stay
where they can see me, for safety reasons and for convenience (it
takes too long trying to find people over and over).
Dh and I both like to go for short trips, and take one kid with us.
We pick up two or three things, buy a soda, and sit on the curb and
talk. It's a cheap and easy date, and gives them one on one in a
store so that they have your full attention, they get to practice,
and they are learning how people act and how to buy stuff.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Apr 16, 2006, at 8:09 PM, Julie W in AR wrote:
>
> > parenting style
> > and i wasn't sure what to do. My kids like to run,
> > be loud, and not
> > look out for others shoppers in the store. ....Any
> >suggestions?
lilith_pouia
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
wrote:
is a much better idea than letting them run wild in a store. I was
just hoping some of you parents more practiced at creative solutions
than i might be able to offer suggestions for how to do that. My old
methods would have been reward and punishment, which i have seen
aren't really teaching them anything, or they wouldn't still need to
be bribed or threatened to behave in public places. It occured to me
last night that if punishment worked we wouldn't need to continue to
do it. We would punish children and then they would never to that
thing again they got punished for. That's not the way it works out.
Therefore the method isn't effective. Seems like simple logic, i can't
believe i didn't realize it sooner. I guess i'm really just wondering
how you teach them to respect boundries outside the home that they
don't really seem to care about. It seems to me that leaving them at
home would just stunt their learning sooner.
wrote:
>I completely agree that teaching them to work within those limitations
> Constraint
> and creative solutions are GOOD. Real life offers real limitations
> that are sometimes for the common good. Helping children work within
> those real limitations is better than letting them run wild where it
> isn't appropriate!!
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
is a much better idea than letting them run wild in a store. I was
just hoping some of you parents more practiced at creative solutions
than i might be able to offer suggestions for how to do that. My old
methods would have been reward and punishment, which i have seen
aren't really teaching them anything, or they wouldn't still need to
be bribed or threatened to behave in public places. It occured to me
last night that if punishment worked we wouldn't need to continue to
do it. We would punish children and then they would never to that
thing again they got punished for. That's not the way it works out.
Therefore the method isn't effective. Seems like simple logic, i can't
believe i didn't realize it sooner. I guess i'm really just wondering
how you teach them to respect boundries outside the home that they
don't really seem to care about. It seems to me that leaving them at
home would just stunt their learning sooner.
Julie W in AR
> It seems to me thatWell sure if they were 13, but little ones may just
> leaving them at
> home would just stunt their learning sooner.
>
need time to be ready to learn those limitations. They
will learn about limitations, personal space and
things like that in other ways.
It also helps if they actually want to be at the store
or "have to" go.
When my 14 yr old was little he did not want to go to
the grochery store or even on short trips "to town",
he still avoids shopping unless he has a reason to go.
I had the option of going without him OR sending my dh
to do the shopping.
Julie W
www.damngoodvintage.com
Tami
>>> It occured to melast night that if punishment worked we wouldn't need to continue to
do it. We would punish children and then they would never to that
thing again they got punished for. That's not the way it works out.
Therefore the method isn't effective. Seems like simple logic, i can't
believe i didn't realize it sooner. <<<
Ah, but you get it now. That's important for you and great for your kids.
>>>I guess i'm really just wonderinghow you teach them to respect boundries outside the home that they
don't really seem to care about. It seems to me that leaving them at
home would just stunt their learning sooner. <<<
They'll learn by example, and when they are ready and need to learn. When
they are older and want to be-- or don't mind being-- in the store, they'll
see that other people don't run around and such...they'll get it. Until
then, if you take them, make it fun. Bring snacks, and things to do while
they ride in the cart, or lists of stuff to look for, or something. Get ice
cream after, or pack cold stuff in a cooler and stop at the park-- not as a
reward, but just because it's fun.
Try not to think that anything will "stunt their learning". In joyful,
peaceful, happy lives, learning happens. Really.
Tami, whose kids prefer the grocery store to the movie theatre. Go
figure.
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Su Penn
On Apr 16, 2006, at 10:32 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:
trying to shop with. I shop with two, ages 5 & 2, and we always have
a great time. Some of the reason for that is that my kids have
patient, easy-going temperaments, and so do I most days <g>. Some
things we do that help it go smoothly:
We usually have snacks in the cart. They like to get a bagel or a
croissant at the bakery on the way in, or a box of animal cookies in
the cookie aisle.
I talk out loud to them a lot about what I'm doing, what I'm buying
and why, what meals we're going to fix with it, and so on.
We play games. They count down to blast-off every time we have to
move the cart; they pretend to be firefighters leaping onto the cart
to go fight a fire; if the aisle is empty, I jog a little and run in
a serpentine pattern, saying, "Oh, no, we're out of control! What
will become of us? Aaaah!" Stuff like that.
I bring new books from the library to look at in the cart (our
grocery store has carts with two-kid benches attached that they
really like to ride on), or their magnetic slates. Sometimes lately
we jog quickly through the toy aisle on the way in and get something
in the $2-5 range, like a matchbox car or small Lego toy that they
can play with while we shop.
I do wonder what will happen when 5 yo Eric is older and these games
don't entertain him, but maybe by then he'll be able to actively help
with the shopping, or choose to stay home (my partner works full-time
from home).
me to punish Eric are behaviors that he really is not in control of.
He's a great kid who wants to do what's right and has a lot of
respect for other people but he is sometimes too tired, too hungry,
too over-wrought, or, recently for a period of several months,
apparently going through some kind of mysterious developmental
process we don't understand. As hard as his behavior has been for me
during that period, there's no point in punishing because if he could
control himself, he would!
appropriately. We try not to be punitive or blaming about it, just "I
see that you are not able to stay in your seat. I'm going to take you
outside while Mama gets our food packed up and pays the bill," or
"We'll come back and spend more time at the library another day." I
think it does feel punitive to him, nonetheless, at least sometimes,
but we try to be matter-of-fact and not lecture.
Grocery shopping is a high-stress errand. It takes a long time, it's
hard to cut the trip short if necessary, the artificial lights start
to get to some people after awhile, the store is often full of cranky
people, and there are never enough registers open. If doing the
grocery shopping is too hard for a family, there are lots of other,
less stressful, opportunities for kids to learn how to behave in
public. A quick trip into a convenience store, the bakery, the
library, the copy shop, the post office--those are all chances for
kids to practice behaving appropriately without having to maintain
that behavior for a very long time.
Also, with Eric, sometimes there is something he's not ready for, and
no amount of practice will help him get it. An example of this is
lying back in the chair and staying there with his mouth open for a
whole dental cleaning. At his cleaning when he had just turned four,
he was alarmed by being asked to recline; every time the hygienist
stopped for a moment to get a different instrument, he closed his
mouth and tried to climb down; and ultimately he did not get a
complete cleaning because it was being too stressful for him and we
weren't going to get through it without getting more coercive than
the situation called for. Six months later? He hopped into the chair,
lay back with his feet casually crossed, opened his mouth, and just
lay there looking relaxed while the hygienist did a very thorough
cleaning and checked his teeth. The difference wasn't that he'd been
to the dentist a lot in between and learned how to behave there; the
difference was the dramatic difference in development between "just
barely four" and "almost five."
Su
> I completely agree that teaching them to work within those limitationsI can't remember offhand how old your kids are, or how many you're
> is a much better idea than letting them run wild in a store. I was
> just hoping some of you parents more practiced at creative solutions
> than i might be able to offer suggestions for how to do that.
trying to shop with. I shop with two, ages 5 & 2, and we always have
a great time. Some of the reason for that is that my kids have
patient, easy-going temperaments, and so do I most days <g>. Some
things we do that help it go smoothly:
We usually have snacks in the cart. They like to get a bagel or a
croissant at the bakery on the way in, or a box of animal cookies in
the cookie aisle.
I talk out loud to them a lot about what I'm doing, what I'm buying
and why, what meals we're going to fix with it, and so on.
We play games. They count down to blast-off every time we have to
move the cart; they pretend to be firefighters leaping onto the cart
to go fight a fire; if the aisle is empty, I jog a little and run in
a serpentine pattern, saying, "Oh, no, we're out of control! What
will become of us? Aaaah!" Stuff like that.
I bring new books from the library to look at in the cart (our
grocery store has carts with two-kid benches attached that they
really like to ride on), or their magnetic slates. Sometimes lately
we jog quickly through the toy aisle on the way in and get something
in the $2-5 range, like a matchbox car or small Lego toy that they
can play with while we shop.
I do wonder what will happen when 5 yo Eric is older and these games
don't entertain him, but maybe by then he'll be able to actively help
with the shopping, or choose to stay home (my partner works full-time
from home).
> . It occured to meThe other piece of this for me is that often the behaviors that tempt
> last night that if punishment worked we wouldn't need to continue to
> do it. We would punish children and then they would never to that
> thing again they got punished for. That's not the way it works out.
> Therefore the method isn't effective. Seems like simple logic, i can't
> believe i didn't realize it sooner
me to punish Eric are behaviors that he really is not in control of.
He's a great kid who wants to do what's right and has a lot of
respect for other people but he is sometimes too tired, too hungry,
too over-wrought, or, recently for a period of several months,
apparently going through some kind of mysterious developmental
process we don't understand. As hard as his behavior has been for me
during that period, there's no point in punishing because if he could
control himself, he would!
> I guess i'm really just wonderingWe have left places when we needed to, if Eric was unable to behave
> how you teach them to respect boundries outside the home that they
> don't really seem to care about. It seems to me that leaving them at
> home would just stunt their learning sooner.
appropriately. We try not to be punitive or blaming about it, just "I
see that you are not able to stay in your seat. I'm going to take you
outside while Mama gets our food packed up and pays the bill," or
"We'll come back and spend more time at the library another day." I
think it does feel punitive to him, nonetheless, at least sometimes,
but we try to be matter-of-fact and not lecture.
Grocery shopping is a high-stress errand. It takes a long time, it's
hard to cut the trip short if necessary, the artificial lights start
to get to some people after awhile, the store is often full of cranky
people, and there are never enough registers open. If doing the
grocery shopping is too hard for a family, there are lots of other,
less stressful, opportunities for kids to learn how to behave in
public. A quick trip into a convenience store, the bakery, the
library, the copy shop, the post office--those are all chances for
kids to practice behaving appropriately without having to maintain
that behavior for a very long time.
Also, with Eric, sometimes there is something he's not ready for, and
no amount of practice will help him get it. An example of this is
lying back in the chair and staying there with his mouth open for a
whole dental cleaning. At his cleaning when he had just turned four,
he was alarmed by being asked to recline; every time the hygienist
stopped for a moment to get a different instrument, he closed his
mouth and tried to climb down; and ultimately he did not get a
complete cleaning because it was being too stressful for him and we
weren't going to get through it without getting more coercive than
the situation called for. Six months later? He hopped into the chair,
lay back with his feet casually crossed, opened his mouth, and just
lay there looking relaxed while the hygienist did a very thorough
cleaning and checked his teeth. The difference wasn't that he'd been
to the dentist a lot in between and learned how to behave there; the
difference was the dramatic difference in development between "just
barely four" and "almost five."
Su
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 16, 2006, at 8:19 PM, Melissa wrote:
people at a real store, though.
It's not preparation for going to a store, it IS.
Sandra
> Well, I didn't like just leaving my kids home, because I thought theyTo think of it is "practicing" denies the fact that they are real
> would enjoy practicing,
people at a real store, though.
It's not preparation for going to a store, it IS.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 16, 2006, at 8:32 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:
If they can't behave within certain bounds, they can't go to stores.
The store won't let them stay. That's as true of adults as of children.
Informing and advising them, creating an atmosphere between you and
then so that they know what's expected and aren't feeling held down
or shamed... it's not "teaching," it's being with them and helping
them understand.
-=-I was just hoping some of you parents more practiced at creative
solutions
than i might be able to offer suggestions for how to do that. -=-
Please don't act like people are withholding creative solutions from
you, or not making suggestions. For one thing, it's Easter and lots
of people are busy with relatives, or are out of town.
Some people here have experienced moving from punishments to other
methods. Some never used punishments to begin with. But most have
lots of ideas they've actually used. Give it a few days. Be patient
with us and yourself too.
-=--=-I guess i'm really just wondering
how you teach them to respect boundries outside the home that they
don't really seem to care about. It seems to me that leaving them at
home would just stunt their learning sooner.-=--=-
It's about helping them know WHY people behave certain ways. When I
put the cart back at the grocery store after I use it, it's not
because I thing I'll be yelled at or spanked. It's because I feel
better when I do that. It seems a better thing to do than to leave
it where it might roll away or be in someone's way. If it's really
cold, or if one of the cart-returning workers is out there, I might
leave it near the car, especially if I can indicate to them that I'm
leaving it and make some friendly gesture. We live a few hundred
yards from a store, and some neighbor of ours rudely takes a cart
past our house and leave it. Sometimes I've walked it back over
there, or Marty has taken it when he goes to work there. I don't do
it to teach my kids to do it, I do it because walking is fun or I
feel like it, or I need to go to the store anyway so I might as well
take it back.
When we're out walking we pick up trash we find. Not every piece, in
a really trashy place, but few pieces in a very clean place, or
where kids are likely to play. I did it before I had kids, I did it
when they were babies and toddlers and would say why I was doing it
while I was doing it, and I see them do it now when they don't know
I'm looking.
What kids see affects them. If they have high regard for the
reasoning or the individuals they'll be more likely to emulate them.
If they have low regard, they might avoid that behavior themselves.
There are other kinds of factors that make people do or not do what
they've seen others do, and individual temperaments, but setting an
example and explaining (briefly, not in lectures) why you're going to
pick up broken glass that's under a slide helps them figure out the
world.
Sandra
> I completely agree that teaching them to work within those limitationsPlease beware the word "teaching."
> is a much better idea than letting them run wild in a store.
If they can't behave within certain bounds, they can't go to stores.
The store won't let them stay. That's as true of adults as of children.
Informing and advising them, creating an atmosphere between you and
then so that they know what's expected and aren't feeling held down
or shamed... it's not "teaching," it's being with them and helping
them understand.
-=-I was just hoping some of you parents more practiced at creative
solutions
than i might be able to offer suggestions for how to do that. -=-
Please don't act like people are withholding creative solutions from
you, or not making suggestions. For one thing, it's Easter and lots
of people are busy with relatives, or are out of town.
Some people here have experienced moving from punishments to other
methods. Some never used punishments to begin with. But most have
lots of ideas they've actually used. Give it a few days. Be patient
with us and yourself too.
-=--=-I guess i'm really just wondering
how you teach them to respect boundries outside the home that they
don't really seem to care about. It seems to me that leaving them at
home would just stunt their learning sooner.-=--=-
It's about helping them know WHY people behave certain ways. When I
put the cart back at the grocery store after I use it, it's not
because I thing I'll be yelled at or spanked. It's because I feel
better when I do that. It seems a better thing to do than to leave
it where it might roll away or be in someone's way. If it's really
cold, or if one of the cart-returning workers is out there, I might
leave it near the car, especially if I can indicate to them that I'm
leaving it and make some friendly gesture. We live a few hundred
yards from a store, and some neighbor of ours rudely takes a cart
past our house and leave it. Sometimes I've walked it back over
there, or Marty has taken it when he goes to work there. I don't do
it to teach my kids to do it, I do it because walking is fun or I
feel like it, or I need to go to the store anyway so I might as well
take it back.
When we're out walking we pick up trash we find. Not every piece, in
a really trashy place, but few pieces in a very clean place, or
where kids are likely to play. I did it before I had kids, I did it
when they were babies and toddlers and would say why I was doing it
while I was doing it, and I see them do it now when they don't know
I'm looking.
What kids see affects them. If they have high regard for the
reasoning or the individuals they'll be more likely to emulate them.
If they have low regard, they might avoid that behavior themselves.
There are other kinds of factors that make people do or not do what
they've seen others do, and individual temperaments, but setting an
example and explaining (briefly, not in lectures) why you're going to
pick up broken glass that's under a slide helps them figure out the
world.
Sandra
Melissa
Okay, noted! ;-)
You're right, I did not phrase that appropriately. We did shop. I
just planned on not buying a months worth of groceries at once. The
short trips give them experience for handling a trip in which we
might stay longer or attempt to buy more groceries. So not practice,
per se, but gaining tools through MY compromise. Dh and I (and Josh
too, when it was just the three of us) honestly would go buy a
months' worth of groceries in one three hour spree. I learned to let
that go in the greater interest of family unity and happiness.
I wanted to rewrite the reward phrase too. I did not reward in the
traditional negative sense as in "Good girl..here's a biscuit", but
rather more like "Wow, we did great, I think we need to celebrate",
or "We had some trouble and feel crummy, let's go celebrate". :-P
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
You're right, I did not phrase that appropriately. We did shop. I
just planned on not buying a months worth of groceries at once. The
short trips give them experience for handling a trip in which we
might stay longer or attempt to buy more groceries. So not practice,
per se, but gaining tools through MY compromise. Dh and I (and Josh
too, when it was just the three of us) honestly would go buy a
months' worth of groceries in one three hour spree. I learned to let
that go in the greater interest of family unity and happiness.
I wanted to rewrite the reward phrase too. I did not reward in the
traditional negative sense as in "Good girl..here's a biscuit", but
rather more like "Wow, we did great, I think we need to celebrate",
or "We had some trouble and feel crummy, let's go celebrate". :-P
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose
share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
On Apr 16, 2006, at 10:46 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> On Apr 16, 2006, at 8:19 PM, Melissa wrote:
>
> > Well, I didn't like just leaving my kids home, because I thought
> they
> > would enjoy practicing,
>
>
> To think of it is "practicing" denies the fact that they are real
> people at a real store, though.
> It's not preparation for going to a store, it IS.
Bling Williams
On Apr 16, 2006, at 4:00 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:
Now I tend to go alone cos Celyn hates supermarkets. Something to do with the lighting I guess? She's ok if DH comes and he carries her but she refuses to be calm in her wheelchair while I push that and pull the trolley (cart) so i don't take her anymore.
The other alternative is ordering online and having it delivered.
S
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www.celyn.org
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> We had our first outing today since begining our new parenting styleMake short trips. When my older 3 were young it was back in the days when stores closed at 5pm and weren't open on sunday so I had no choice but to take them with me. I'd go 3 times a week so it would be short trips cos kids under 5 get bored. And when they get bored, mine would get loud and often naked. Many times I turned around to find 3 naked toddlers behind me. Its funny now of course!
> and i wasn't sure what to do. My kids like to run, be loud, and not
> look out for others shoppers in the store. I tried to engage them in
> helping shop and pick out foods but that only worked part of the time.
> And i did take them out to the car instead of making them stand in
> line which is hard for them. Any suggestions?
Now I tend to go alone cos Celyn hates supermarkets. Something to do with the lighting I guess? She's ok if DH comes and he carries her but she refuses to be calm in her wheelchair while I push that and pull the trolley (cart) so i don't take her anymore.
The other alternative is ordering online and having it delivered.
S
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www.celyn.org
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Bling Williams
How loud? You might just be over-sensitive and worried about what other people think. If you've ever been to Europe you know kids are heard and seen everywhere and its normal.
S
lilith_pouia <lilith_pouia@...> wrote:
We had our first outing today since begining our new parenting style
and i wasn't sure what to do. My kids like to run, be loud, and not
look out for others shoppers in the store. I tried to engage them in
helping shop and pick out foods but that only worked part of the time.
And i did take them out to the car instead of making them stand in
line which is hard for them. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Lilith
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S
lilith_pouia <lilith_pouia@...> wrote:
We had our first outing today since begining our new parenting style
and i wasn't sure what to do. My kids like to run, be loud, and not
look out for others shoppers in the store. I tried to engage them in
helping shop and pick out foods but that only worked part of the time.
And i did take them out to the car instead of making them stand in
line which is hard for them. Any suggestions?
Thanks, Lilith
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freepsgal
> It seems to me that leaving them at home would just stunt theirI agree with Julie. I don't think it's fair to think that children
> learning sooner.
are ready for limitations at all ages. There is a big difference
between a 5 yr. old and a 12 yr. old, for example.
My dd13 (almost 14) is sometimes embarrassed by the way my dd8
behaves. The ironic thing is that they are like 2 peas in a pod!!
My dd8's behavior is the same way my older daughter behaved when she
was this age. When I try to explain that, my teenager looks at me
like I have 2 heads! To her, she's always been cool. KWIM? She
can't fathom that she ever acted silly or immature. *laugh*
If you have to take them to the store, I like the idea of taking
them early early in the morning or late at night when the store
isn't as crowded. That could be a solution.
I have always done most of my grocery shopping alone, at night,
after dinner. *I* actually prefer the less-crowded atmosphere and
my children have always been happy to stay home. Sometimes they
decide to go with me, but it's because they have something special
in mind, and they are always well behaved. For example, my ds9
loves to push the grocery cart while I fill it up. He also likes to
empty the cart onto the conveyor belt. And he really likes to go to
the store when I am shopping for only a few items because then we
use the self-help lanes and ring up our own purchases. I can assure
you that when they were younger, they didn't understand public
ettiquette as much and were loud or ran around. Now they don't do
that. If they did, I'd simply shop alone, leaving them at home
where they can be loud and run around without bothering people or
possibly causing damage to anything.
Beth M.
Ren Allen
"I guess i'm really just wondering
how you teach them to respect boundries outside the home that they
don't really seem to care about. It seems to me that leaving them at
home would just stunt their learning sooner."
A child that is hanging out with someone at home, happily is not going
to have any learning stunted. A child that can't behave appropriately
in a certain public place at 3 years old, is probably going to be just
fine at 12.
Kids don't need to learn all about various public places by any
certain age, nor do they need to learn from a grocery store at
all....though we've had lotsa fun and learning there. Not visiting a
grocery store for a few years won't hurt their learning on any level.
BUT, you could find ways to help them visit the grocery store if they
like it. I try to do shorter trips with Jalen (who is now five) or
take him there alone and go at his pace. I've asked Markus to put on a
good movie or otherwish distract Jalen so I could go without him too.
His learning isn't stunted a bit.:)
Exposing kids to the world, doesn't mean we have to do it by any
certain age, nor do we need to worry that their learning is stunted by
avoiding certain places that just don't work very well yet.
Avoiding problematic situations is a big part of gentle parenting. WE
need to set up situations in which the odds for success are high.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
how you teach them to respect boundries outside the home that they
don't really seem to care about. It seems to me that leaving them at
home would just stunt their learning sooner."
A child that is hanging out with someone at home, happily is not going
to have any learning stunted. A child that can't behave appropriately
in a certain public place at 3 years old, is probably going to be just
fine at 12.
Kids don't need to learn all about various public places by any
certain age, nor do they need to learn from a grocery store at
all....though we've had lotsa fun and learning there. Not visiting a
grocery store for a few years won't hurt their learning on any level.
BUT, you could find ways to help them visit the grocery store if they
like it. I try to do shorter trips with Jalen (who is now five) or
take him there alone and go at his pace. I've asked Markus to put on a
good movie or otherwish distract Jalen so I could go without him too.
His learning isn't stunted a bit.:)
Exposing kids to the world, doesn't mean we have to do it by any
certain age, nor do we need to worry that their learning is stunted by
avoiding certain places that just don't work very well yet.
Avoiding problematic situations is a big part of gentle parenting. WE
need to set up situations in which the odds for success are high.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
lilith_pouia
>I suppose all of that is true. I didn't really look at it like that. I
> A child that is hanging out with someone at home, happily is not going
> to have any learning stunted. A child that can't behave appropriately
> in a certain public place at 3 years old, is probably going to be just
> fine at 12.
> Kids don't need to learn all about various public places by any
> certain age, nor do they need to learn from a grocery store at
> all....though we've had lotsa fun and learning there. Not visiting a
> grocery store for a few years won't hurt their learning on any level.
>
> BUT, you could find ways to help them visit the grocery store if they
> like it. I try to do shorter trips with Jalen (who is now five) or
> take him there alone and go at his pace. I've asked Markus to put on a
> good movie or otherwish distract Jalen so I could go without him too.
> His learning isn't stunted a bit.:)
>
> Exposing kids to the world, doesn't mean we have to do it by any
> certain age, nor do we need to worry that their learning is stunted by
> avoiding certain places that just don't work very well yet.
>
> Avoiding problematic situations is a big part of gentle parenting. WE
> need to set up situations in which the odds for success are high.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
just assumed i'd be taking away learning oppertunities by keeping them
home. I appreciate all the advice from everyone. You guys have given
me many options to consider, and i can try them all in time.
Thanks,
Lilith
Ren Allen
" I didn't really look at it like that. I
just assumed i'd be taking away learning oppertunities by keeping them
home."
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating keeping children at home, just
avoiding problematic public places.:)
I don't know the ages of your children, but if they're very little,
home is a wonderful place for them. I think we undervalue the
importance of wee people SLOWLY working into outings and public venues
as they're ready. Home is a fantastic environment if it's a nurturing,
rich and interesting place.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
just assumed i'd be taking away learning oppertunities by keeping them
home."
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating keeping children at home, just
avoiding problematic public places.:)
I don't know the ages of your children, but if they're very little,
home is a wonderful place for them. I think we undervalue the
importance of wee people SLOWLY working into outings and public venues
as they're ready. Home is a fantastic environment if it's a nurturing,
rich and interesting place.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
lilith_pouia
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
reprogrammed yet. I'm sure it takes a while actually. I can't teach
them about limitations they don't care about, because they won't care
to learn it. It seems I answered my own question in the same
paragraph. Thank you for taking the time to respond with so much good
advice. I'll keep it all in mind.
Lilith
>teaching vs.learning and completely agree. I guess i'm not fully
>
>
>
> Please beware the word "teaching."
>
> Yeah, thanks for catching that for me. I've read the article about
reprogrammed yet. I'm sure it takes a while actually. I can't teach
them about limitations they don't care about, because they won't care
to learn it. It seems I answered my own question in the same
paragraph. Thank you for taking the time to respond with so much good
advice. I'll keep it all in mind.
Lilith
>
>
Janet Ford
>>How loud? You might just be over-sensitive and worried about what other people think. If you've ever been to Europe you know kids are heard and seen everywhere and its normal.<<I always wondered why in our culture the norm is for kids to not be seen OR heard?? It's so odd to realize that most times there are NO kids out in public, or very rarely.
If they're not in school, there's afterschool care, programmed activities or sports -- kids aren't just out having fun. Very odd. And sad.
Janet
>
Janet
>>> It occured to melast night that if punishment worked we wouldn't need to continue to
do it. We would punish children and then they would never to that
thing again they got punished for. That's not the way it works out.
Therefore the method isn't effective. Seems like simple logic, i can't
believe i didn't realize it sooner. <<<
And there's some people that never figure it out. My SIL was giving me
parenting advice when my oldest was about three. She was telling how there
were several years that it seemed like her son "needed a spanking" everyday.
She told me how she had to be diligent and consistent to make sure he got
what he needed. I remembered at the time thinking there was a big problem
with their parenting methods - something wasn't working. She never did
learn. Did the same thing with all four of her children. My husband
finally quit playing board games with this boy (he was a teen at the time)
because he cheated - and his father's a minister! Your children are
fortunate you realized it now - earlier is better but now is way much better
than later.
As for grocery stores, I have 5 yr. old twins. When I go grocery shopping,
I'm usually intent on getting the best deals, comparing prices, etc. I shop
for a family of seven so I need to be careful. I don't have the time to
give my twins when I'm shopping like that. What we do is make special trips
just for them at other times. I usually never take them together unless my
husband is with me. But we take them individually. One thing they love to
do is go to a Dollar Store and then they get to pick out a few items while
oohing and aahing up and down all the aisles. Lots of fun for them, and
when I only have one I can follow her and let her take the lead. If I had
both, I would have to hold one back and there would probably be tears. You
might try making special trips with them individually when you can give them
your attention. It's actually a lot of fun - wouldn't be so much fun during
a 'for real' grocery store trip.
Janet
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julia Swancy
here's my .02 on grocery shopping:
Lilith, it sounds like it didn't go too badly!
celebrate that! public situations are different than
private ones, in some ways, that's true. over time the
guiding principles of how you're approaching life will
permeate your thinking (and your kids' thinking) and
you won't have to consciously figure out every single
thing anew.
my ds (3) is and always has been very energetic. he
now refuses to stay in the cart. something that really
helps him which may help your kids too (4 and 7,
aren't they? or have I got yours confused with someone
else?) is I tell ds *in the car, right before we go
in* exactly what we're doing and what to expect, and
what I expect. he won't remember if I tell him sooner.
sometimes I tell him as we're driving too, but
*always* right before we get out of the car to go in
the store. the only "rule" for lack of a better word
is that I need him to stay close to me. he doesn't
have to stay glued to my bum, but in the same aisle so
I can see what he's doing, prevent accidents/
destruction of property (like toppling a display or
getting his hands all over the food in the bulk bins
or opening something I don't want to buy, all of which
we've done lol), and have conversation with him. if
it's a day where I am in a rush, I tell him that
repeatedly before we go in and while we're in the
store. ex: we're stopping by the store for milk and
eggs and that's it, it's 5:30pm and I need to get back
to the house for dinner. normally when I have the time
we stop throughout the store and look at things, and
we stop at the matchbox cars and look at each one
until he decides which one to get (a decision that
cannot be rushed! lol). if we can't take that time
today, I tell him this and enlist his help in
remembering what we need to get. I have been very
surprised at his ability to remember what we need! I
continue to remind him (always gently) in the store
what we need and why we have to be fast (remember,
it's late and we have to get home to meet daddy, etc).
sometimes I can make a game out of being fast, too.
also, ask your kids for ideas. tell them what needs to
be accomplished, both by the shopping and in terms of
being respectful of the store and other shoppers.
then, ask them for ideas to make it happen. would they
like to pick out a favorite snack food to eat in the
cart? I have no qualms about opening something in the
store that I know I intend to buy. there are plenty of
cheap toys in the grocery store here, too. it goes
against my environmental grain to get yet another
matchbox car every time we go, but it's part of ds's
ritual now and makes my shopping much easier. let them
know if you need to shop for a lot of stuff and it
might be a longish trip, if you think they might get
bored, etc. imo it doesn't "put ideas in their heads"
to acknowledge boredom if you see it; it seems to help
my ds deal with it if I help him name it.
I also agree with the post that asked whether they are
really being problematic for others. I have always
been pretty relaxed about ds's volume, but one day I
was wishing I could crawl under something when we were
in ingle's. I have no idea why, but he started a game
in which he would scream "BUGGGSSS
BUNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!" over and over, top of
his lungs, and then crack up hysterically. I was
beyond embarrassed and there was nothing I could do.
two women who were shopping together came by us in the
aisle and smiled at me. I shrugged and said "I have no
idea!" they said "sounds like he's just being a kid!"
and laughed. whew! after that I was much more relaxed
:) (the strangest thing about that was that he had
never heard of bugs bunny to my knowledge at that
time!)
shorter trips or getting dh to do some are great too,
if you can make that work for you. I live pretty far
from everything and dh works so much that those
options are rarely feasible for me.
hope this is useful!
Julia, whose posts always turn out longer than she
expects ;)
Lilith, it sounds like it didn't go too badly!
celebrate that! public situations are different than
private ones, in some ways, that's true. over time the
guiding principles of how you're approaching life will
permeate your thinking (and your kids' thinking) and
you won't have to consciously figure out every single
thing anew.
my ds (3) is and always has been very energetic. he
now refuses to stay in the cart. something that really
helps him which may help your kids too (4 and 7,
aren't they? or have I got yours confused with someone
else?) is I tell ds *in the car, right before we go
in* exactly what we're doing and what to expect, and
what I expect. he won't remember if I tell him sooner.
sometimes I tell him as we're driving too, but
*always* right before we get out of the car to go in
the store. the only "rule" for lack of a better word
is that I need him to stay close to me. he doesn't
have to stay glued to my bum, but in the same aisle so
I can see what he's doing, prevent accidents/
destruction of property (like toppling a display or
getting his hands all over the food in the bulk bins
or opening something I don't want to buy, all of which
we've done lol), and have conversation with him. if
it's a day where I am in a rush, I tell him that
repeatedly before we go in and while we're in the
store. ex: we're stopping by the store for milk and
eggs and that's it, it's 5:30pm and I need to get back
to the house for dinner. normally when I have the time
we stop throughout the store and look at things, and
we stop at the matchbox cars and look at each one
until he decides which one to get (a decision that
cannot be rushed! lol). if we can't take that time
today, I tell him this and enlist his help in
remembering what we need to get. I have been very
surprised at his ability to remember what we need! I
continue to remind him (always gently) in the store
what we need and why we have to be fast (remember,
it's late and we have to get home to meet daddy, etc).
sometimes I can make a game out of being fast, too.
also, ask your kids for ideas. tell them what needs to
be accomplished, both by the shopping and in terms of
being respectful of the store and other shoppers.
then, ask them for ideas to make it happen. would they
like to pick out a favorite snack food to eat in the
cart? I have no qualms about opening something in the
store that I know I intend to buy. there are plenty of
cheap toys in the grocery store here, too. it goes
against my environmental grain to get yet another
matchbox car every time we go, but it's part of ds's
ritual now and makes my shopping much easier. let them
know if you need to shop for a lot of stuff and it
might be a longish trip, if you think they might get
bored, etc. imo it doesn't "put ideas in their heads"
to acknowledge boredom if you see it; it seems to help
my ds deal with it if I help him name it.
I also agree with the post that asked whether they are
really being problematic for others. I have always
been pretty relaxed about ds's volume, but one day I
was wishing I could crawl under something when we were
in ingle's. I have no idea why, but he started a game
in which he would scream "BUGGGSSS
BUNNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!" over and over, top of
his lungs, and then crack up hysterically. I was
beyond embarrassed and there was nothing I could do.
two women who were shopping together came by us in the
aisle and smiled at me. I shrugged and said "I have no
idea!" they said "sounds like he's just being a kid!"
and laughed. whew! after that I was much more relaxed
:) (the strangest thing about that was that he had
never heard of bugs bunny to my knowledge at that
time!)
shorter trips or getting dh to do some are great too,
if you can make that work for you. I live pretty far
from everything and dh works so much that those
options are rarely feasible for me.
hope this is useful!
Julia, whose posts always turn out longer than she
expects ;)
lilith_pouia
--- In [email protected], Bling Williams <bobalinga@...>
wrote:
heard and seen everywhere and its normal.
me knowing just how embarassing they can and have gotton in the past.
As an example, a few months back we are shopping in Target for clothes
for them and they found it funnier and more interesting to start
yelling "Nipple, nipple!" loudly back and forth to each other and
laughing about it, than to pick out their clothes. Now i have no
problem with the fact than my sons find the idea of nipples funny, but
i have explained to them the purpose nipples serve repeatedly and that
it isn't appropiate to do things like that in public. They are also
big on potty humor, which there is nothing inherently wrong with,
unless you are yelling about it in a store. My younger son tends to
like randomly screaming in stores just to hear the loud echo of his
voice. I don't see anything wrong with this either except that it just
isn't appropiate. If people are looking at me funny for my kids just
being kids i might blow that off, but sometimes the level of
embarassment soars.
wrote:
>other people think. If you've ever been to Europe you know kids are
> How loud? You might just be over-sensitive and worried about what
heard and seen everywhere and its normal.
>overstresses me because of that concern. But i assume that is tied to
> Well i can admit that there are times their behavior probably
me knowing just how embarassing they can and have gotton in the past.
As an example, a few months back we are shopping in Target for clothes
for them and they found it funnier and more interesting to start
yelling "Nipple, nipple!" loudly back and forth to each other and
laughing about it, than to pick out their clothes. Now i have no
problem with the fact than my sons find the idea of nipples funny, but
i have explained to them the purpose nipples serve repeatedly and that
it isn't appropiate to do things like that in public. They are also
big on potty humor, which there is nothing inherently wrong with,
unless you are yelling about it in a store. My younger son tends to
like randomly screaming in stores just to hear the loud echo of his
voice. I don't see anything wrong with this either except that it just
isn't appropiate. If people are looking at me funny for my kids just
being kids i might blow that off, but sometimes the level of
embarassment soars.
>Service.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
> Visit your group "AlwaysLearning" on the web.
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>call rates.
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
Bling Williams
I think I'd laugh rather than find t embaressing. But thats just me.
To be honest, if the volumne wasn't hurting people's ears or they weren't chucking things about I wouldn't worry about that sort of behaviour.
Kids will be kids and sometimes grownups need to lighten up!
Mine would sing or shout. the one thing i did explain to them probably wasn't polte was when we first moved to the States. They found the accent fascinating and used to meander around Target saying 'y'all want fries with that.'
<blush>
And that was in uptight north VA!
But on the whole I think the problem more lies with what we as adults see an embaressing. We think every one is judging us on our kids behaviour and so we try and put a stop to watch is essentialy harmeless fun. And then we oppress our kids cos of all these perceptions.
S
lilith_pouia <lilith_pouia@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], Bling Williams <bobalinga@...>
wrote:
heard and seen everywhere and its normal.
me knowing just how embarassing they can and have gotton in the past.
As an example, a few months back we are shopping in Target for clothes
for them and they found it funnier and more interesting to start
yelling "Nipple, nipple!" loudly back and forth to each other and
laughing about it, than to pick out their clothes. Now i have no
problem with the fact than my sons find the idea of nipples funny, but
i have explained to them the purpose nipples serve repeatedly and that
it isn't appropiate to do things like that in public. They are also
big on potty humor, which there is nothing inherently wrong with,
unless you are yelling about it in a store. My younger son tends to
like randomly screaming in stores just to hear the loud echo of his
voice. I don't see anything wrong with this either except that it just
isn't appropiate. If people are looking at me funny for my kids just
being kids i might blow that off, but sometimes the level of
embarassment soars.
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To be honest, if the volumne wasn't hurting people's ears or they weren't chucking things about I wouldn't worry about that sort of behaviour.
Kids will be kids and sometimes grownups need to lighten up!
Mine would sing or shout. the one thing i did explain to them probably wasn't polte was when we first moved to the States. They found the accent fascinating and used to meander around Target saying 'y'all want fries with that.'
<blush>
And that was in uptight north VA!
But on the whole I think the problem more lies with what we as adults see an embaressing. We think every one is judging us on our kids behaviour and so we try and put a stop to watch is essentialy harmeless fun. And then we oppress our kids cos of all these perceptions.
S
lilith_pouia <lilith_pouia@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], Bling Williams <bobalinga@...>
wrote:
>other people think. If you've ever been to Europe you know kids are
> How loud? You might just be over-sensitive and worried about what
heard and seen everywhere and its normal.
>overstresses me because of that concern. But i assume that is tied to
> Well i can admit that there are times their behavior probably
me knowing just how embarassing they can and have gotton in the past.
As an example, a few months back we are shopping in Target for clothes
for them and they found it funnier and more interesting to start
yelling "Nipple, nipple!" loudly back and forth to each other and
laughing about it, than to pick out their clothes. Now i have no
problem with the fact than my sons find the idea of nipples funny, but
i have explained to them the purpose nipples serve repeatedly and that
it isn't appropiate to do things like that in public. They are also
big on potty humor, which there is nothing inherently wrong with,
unless you are yelling about it in a store. My younger son tends to
like randomly screaming in stores just to hear the loud echo of his
voice. I don't see anything wrong with this either except that it just
isn't appropiate. If people are looking at me funny for my kids just
being kids i might blow that off, but sometimes the level of
embarassment soars.
>Service.
>
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lilith_pouia
--- In [email protected], Bling Williams <bobalinga@...>
wrote:
a lot about learning not to feel responsible for all your children's
actions, as they are their own independent beings and everything they
do shouldn't reflect on you. I think that has helped me a bit with
feeling embaressed by their behavior, and i also try to keep in mind
that i shouldn't repress the natural urges of my children because i'm
concerned what others think. What's really more important, having a
good image, or trying not to make your children feel rejected for
being who they are. These thoughts help me alot, but as i've said, i
haven't perfected anything yet. It is more a journey than a
destination though.
Lilith
wrote:
>The book dh and i have been reading titled Scream Free Parenting talks
> I think I'd laugh rather than find t embaressing. But thats just me.
>
a lot about learning not to feel responsible for all your children's
actions, as they are their own independent beings and everything they
do shouldn't reflect on you. I think that has helped me a bit with
feeling embaressed by their behavior, and i also try to keep in mind
that i shouldn't repress the natural urges of my children because i'm
concerned what others think. What's really more important, having a
good image, or trying not to make your children feel rejected for
being who they are. These thoughts help me alot, but as i've said, i
haven't perfected anything yet. It is more a journey than a
destination though.
Lilith
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 17, 2006, at 9:34 AM, Julia Swancy wrote:
the cart. If he was in the cart I would try to touch him a lot—play
with his hands, put my hand on his back while I wasn't looking at
him, etc. That way he didn't feel ignored or alone. He still had
physical stuff going on.
Whether he needed to stay really near me or not depended on the
situation. On a day when the store was really crowded or there was
someone on crutches or otherwise frail looking, I'd ask him to stay
by me if they were near. If the store was really pretty empty (we
liked early weekday mornings lots), he could run back and forth in
the aisle where I was, or go to the end and look around. If I was in
a frazzledy mood, I might say he could only get down if he stayed
close enough to touch me or the cart. If the deal is made in advance
"You can get out only if..." then if he forgot, he'd get in the cart
without complaining because it was a deal he agreed to. Maybe after
another aisle or two I'd let him try again (again, depending on who/
what/when).
Sometimes I would forget, but I would try (still try) to avoid those
times when it's very crowded. If there are paydays around where you
are, it's worth being aware of them. Some places pay twice a month,
and so there will be some 15ths or Fridays when LOTS and lots of
people are shopping. Food stamps, social security checks and
veteran's benefits checks affect people here between the first and
fifth of the month. My sister works in a bank in Dulce, and on some
Friday every month (third Friday or fourth?) everyone in the tribe
gets a check. That day and the next, the banks are swamped and the
stores.
We live near a big video rental store. Sometimes I forget and go on
a Friday. Big mistake. I can breeze in on a Thursday and have the
store to myself when all the videos rented the weekend before have
been returned.
If it's going to involve taking a child who might get bored, maybe
add those factors to your checklist.
Sandra
> the only "rule" for lack of a better wordMarty was my runningest kid, but he was also pretty happy to stay in
> is that I need him to stay close to me. he doesn't
> have to stay glued to my bum, but in the same aisle so
> I can see what he's doing, prevent accidents/
> destruction of property
the cart. If he was in the cart I would try to touch him a lot—play
with his hands, put my hand on his back while I wasn't looking at
him, etc. That way he didn't feel ignored or alone. He still had
physical stuff going on.
Whether he needed to stay really near me or not depended on the
situation. On a day when the store was really crowded or there was
someone on crutches or otherwise frail looking, I'd ask him to stay
by me if they were near. If the store was really pretty empty (we
liked early weekday mornings lots), he could run back and forth in
the aisle where I was, or go to the end and look around. If I was in
a frazzledy mood, I might say he could only get down if he stayed
close enough to touch me or the cart. If the deal is made in advance
"You can get out only if..." then if he forgot, he'd get in the cart
without complaining because it was a deal he agreed to. Maybe after
another aisle or two I'd let him try again (again, depending on who/
what/when).
Sometimes I would forget, but I would try (still try) to avoid those
times when it's very crowded. If there are paydays around where you
are, it's worth being aware of them. Some places pay twice a month,
and so there will be some 15ths or Fridays when LOTS and lots of
people are shopping. Food stamps, social security checks and
veteran's benefits checks affect people here between the first and
fifth of the month. My sister works in a bank in Dulce, and on some
Friday every month (third Friday or fourth?) everyone in the tribe
gets a check. That day and the next, the banks are swamped and the
stores.
We live near a big video rental store. Sometimes I forget and go on
a Friday. Big mistake. I can breeze in on a Thursday and have the
store to myself when all the videos rented the weekend before have
been returned.
If it's going to involve taking a child who might get bored, maybe
add those factors to your checklist.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Apr 17, 2006, at 10:06 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:
I tell my kids it's not nice to make others feel uncomfortable. That
covers lots of things, and they started early on figuring out what
kinds of things were "cheating" in shared spaces like theaters,
stores, restaurants. They were all games playing kids, so speaking
in terms of taking turns and not messing up the game made sense to
them. Not sitting so close you could see other people's cards was
kind of like giving people their space at restaurants. Don't lean
over and stare at their food, for instance. It wouldn't be nice at a
gaming table.
So with an analogy or two you might avoid lots of lists of "rules" or
things not to do. The principle of sharing spaces politely pretty
much covers it.
Sandra
> they found it funnier and more interesting to startThe purpose nipples serve isn't important at a time like that. <g>
> yelling "Nipple, nipple!" loudly back and forth to each other and
> laughing about it, than to pick out their clothes. Now i have no
> problem with the fact than my sons find the idea of nipples funny, but
> i have explained to them the purpose nipples serve repeatedly and that
> it isn't appropiate to do things like that in public.
I tell my kids it's not nice to make others feel uncomfortable. That
covers lots of things, and they started early on figuring out what
kinds of things were "cheating" in shared spaces like theaters,
stores, restaurants. They were all games playing kids, so speaking
in terms of taking turns and not messing up the game made sense to
them. Not sitting so close you could see other people's cards was
kind of like giving people their space at restaurants. Don't lean
over and stare at their food, for instance. It wouldn't be nice at a
gaming table.
So with an analogy or two you might avoid lots of lists of "rules" or
things not to do. The principle of sharing spaces politely pretty
much covers it.
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
On Apr 17, 2006, at 10:19 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:
I watch how parents handle it when their kids really are being
disruptive (I'm not talking about normal kidness, but screaming kids
in a restaurant, kids running or jumping or playing with a ball in a
grocery store where there are old people in the aisles. I always hope
to see the parents respond by distracting or counseling a bit or
taking the child out of the situation, but not being punitive. I
don't blame the kids when they don't know appropriate behavior - but
the adults in their lives aren't doing them a favor if they act like
needlessly disrupting other people's business or pleasure is just
absolutely fine.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> learning not to feel responsible for all your children'sWhat YOU do reflects on you, though.
> actions, as they are their own independent beings and everything they
> do shouldn't reflect on you.
I watch how parents handle it when their kids really are being
disruptive (I'm not talking about normal kidness, but screaming kids
in a restaurant, kids running or jumping or playing with a ball in a
grocery store where there are old people in the aisles. I always hope
to see the parents respond by distracting or counseling a bit or
taking the child out of the situation, but not being punitive. I
don't blame the kids when they don't know appropriate behavior - but
the adults in their lives aren't doing them a favor if they act like
needlessly disrupting other people's business or pleasure is just
absolutely fine.
-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]