lilith_pouia

Okay, i have been trying to take in the advice i've been given. I had
a good cry the other night, and have been reading more articles, and
had long discussions with my husband. We have decided to try the no
more punishment thing. I am scared though, of what might happen if it
doesn't work or i break down and can't handle it. I'm afraid of not
being consistent with my children and them resenting me more for it.
But maybe if i can ask questions as they come up, and as i learn more
about the way you all are with your families i might get the hang of
it. I've realized it's true that i don't have to let it upset me when
my kids break THEIR things, that the things become THEIRS when i give
them to the kids and the things have to be THEIRS for them to ever
learn how to care for THEIR things. And maybe i should find things to
give them just so they can break them if that's what they like to do.
It's true also that the value I put onto books is MY value, not
THEIRS, and shouldn't be impossed on them if i want them to learn to
think freely. I should let them learn THEIR OWN value for things like
books and whatever else.
The not throwing and runing in the house thing will be hard because i
offer my kids alternatives like playing in the backyard and they
always act as though they are being punished if i say "Go outside if
you want to wrestle, or rough house, run, throw, etc." Or i might say
"Why don't you guys go play baseball or hide and seek?" But sometimes
they just refuse my suggestions and continue being high strung
indoors. So i have had a rule that if they won't calm down inside i
make them go out back. They respond to this like a punishment.
It's easy to say "Well why don't you go play baseball with them?" I
suppose that's possible some of the time, but solutions like that
aren't workable in reality 100% of the time. I'm currently nine months
pregnant, and can't leave food on the stove cooking, for instance, to
go play baseball.(My kids like to run and yell in the house when they
know i'm busy with something hard to walk away from like cooking or an
important phone call.) I also have so much to do preparing for the new
baby that can be and is put off to do things with them sometimes, but
it can't always be that way. Yesterday, for instance, we played out
back with water bombs and water guns all afternoon instead of me doing
the things i know i need to get done and now i'll have a heavier load
today. But, i am willing to try.
Yesterday was our first day trying not to tell the kids what to do
constantly, and with no punishments and i already have a billion
questions.
What do you do when your four year old wants to climb on the fence and
it is sharp at the top? I felt i NEEDED to tell him not to do it.
Or what if they want to drink the whole container of juice boxes in
one day and you know they will cry for the rest of the week that there
aren't anymore? Or what if they want to eat the things i buy
specically for my husband's lunches at work?(I do buy them their own
treats.)If they want to play in the pool, but you know it's not warm
enough outside should you just let them do it anyway, and hope they
learn from it when they are cold? This is going to be so hard for me
to learn. Also what do you do about them respecting YOUR things? They
play with my stuff, and jump on my bed, climb on the car, and get into
my husband's tools. By the way, i did not exaggerate about things
getting broken. My children have broken three or four windows within
the past year, and a ceiling fan, a floor fan and a light fixture.
That's aside from the books, toys and videos i throw away every time i
clean their room. It's not that things MIGHT get broken at my house.
Things DO get broken. And alot of times it's MY things. We have had a
rule that if it's not yours don't play with it. I don't know what to
do about that. So if you all haven't given up on me because of my
negativity yet please help me figure some of this out.
Thanks,
Lilith mother of Tristan Michael(7), Danikan Amadeus(4), and soon to
be Jude Onyx

Nancy Wooton

On Apr 11, 2006, at 7:04 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> Okay, i have been trying to take in the advice i've been given. I had
> a good cry the other night, and have been reading more articles, and
> had long discussions with my husband. We have decided to try the no
> more punishment thing. I am scared though, of what might happen if it
> doesn't work or i break down and can't handle it. I'm afraid of not
> being consistent with my children and them resenting me more for it.
> But maybe if i can ask questions as they come up, and as i learn more
> about the way you all are with your families i might get the hang of
> it. I've realized it's true that i don't have to let it upset me when
> my kids break THEIR things, that the things become THEIRS when i give
> them to the kids and the things have to be THEIRS for them to ever
> learn how to care for THEIR things. And maybe i should find things to
> give them just so they can break them if that's what they like to do.
> It's true also that the value I put onto books is MY value, not
> THEIRS, and shouldn't be impossed on them if i want them to learn to
> think freely. I should let them learn THEIR OWN value for things like
> books and whatever else.
> The not throwing and runing in the house thing will be hard because i
> offer my kids alternatives like playing in the backyard and they
> always act as though they are being punished if i say "Go outside if
> you want to wrestle, or rough house, run, throw, etc." Or i might say
> "Why don't you guys go play baseball or hide and seek?" But sometimes
> they just refuse my suggestions and continue being high strung
> indoors. So i have had a rule that if they won't calm down inside i
> make them go out back. They respond to this like a punishment.
> It's easy to say "Well why don't you go play baseball with them?" I
> suppose that's possible some of the time, but solutions like that
> aren't workable in reality 100% of the time. I'm currently nine months
> pregnant,

It would have helped the discussion if you'd mentioned this fact.

And from your next post:

"This reminds me of a hurtful argument my mother and i had about me
quitting smoking last week. She really offended me by making a remark
about me leaving my children without a mother. I can see her point
better now after reading this, though i feel she could have stated
things differently and less harassingly. I have tried to quit smoking
several times throughout the past year, and i felt she was being
harassing as though i don't realize how important it is to quit. But i
just wanted to share that i noticed this philosophy can be applied to
anything we need to do to better ourselves, not just our parenting. It
could become "too late" for me to quit smoking, and i think maybe
that's all my mother was trying to explain to me."

So I'm just guessing here that you smoked during your other pregnancies
as well. Have you considered that your two boys may have physiological
conditions that are causing their behavior? Upon reading the details
you've posted, I've begun to suspect that your boys are behaving
abnormally. What does their pediatrician say about their behaviors?
I'm not trying to be mean or hurtful or judgmental, but you came to
this list asking for help from more experienced unschoolers, and I'm
probably not the only one who's thinking along these lines. You may
need medical intervention, rather than parenting advice.

This was from just one try googling "smoking during pregnancy"
http://www.chem-tox.com/pregnancy/smoking.htm

Smoking During Pregnancy Increases Conduct Disorders

SOURCE: Archives General Psychiatry, 54:670-676, July, 1997

More evidence on the connection between a mother's smoking during
pregnancy and increased risk of having a child with behavior disorders.
Below is a direct quote of the summary of the 1997 journal article
report in the Archives of General Psychiatry, 54:670, 1997.

Background: Previous animal and human studies have indicated that
prenatal exposure to nicotine isassociated with adverse reproductive
outcomes, including altered neural structure and functioning,cognitive
deficits, and behavior problems in the offspring. Our study extends
previous research onhumans by controlling a broad range of correlates
of maternal smoking during pregnancy todetermine if smoking is
associated with behavior problems in the offspring severe enough to
qualifyfor DSM-III-R diagnoses. 

Method: Subjects were 177 clinic-referred boys, ages 7 to 12 years at
the time of the first assessment, who underwent longitudinal assessment
for 6 years using annual structured diagnostic interviews. Correlates
of maternal smoking during pregnancy and previously identified
demographic, parental, perinatal, and family risk factors for the
disruptive behavior disorders were controlled in logistic regression
analyses. 

Results: Mothers who smoked more than half a pack of cigarettes daily
during pregnancy were significantly more likely to have a child with
conduct disorder (odds ratio, 4.4; P=.001) than mothers who did not
smoke during pregnancy. This association was statistically significant
when controlling for socioeconomic status, maternal age, parental
antisocial personality, substance abuse during pregnancy, and
maladaptive parenting.

Conclusions: Maternal smoking during pregnancy appears to be a robust
independent risk factor for conduct disorder in male offspring.
Maternal smoking during pregnancy may have direct adverse effects on
the developing fetus or be a marker for a heretofore unmeasured
characteristic of mothers that is of etiologic significance for conduct
disorder.

Lauren S. Wakschlag PHD; Benjamin B. Lahey PHD; Rolf Loeber PHD;
Stephanie M. GreenMS; Rachel A. Gordon MA; Bennett L. Leventhal MD


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

Nancy Wooton wrote:

>Method: Subjects were 177 clinic-referred boys, ages 7 to 12 years at
>the time of the first assessment, who underwent longitudinal assessment
>for 6 years using annual structured diagnostic interviews.
>
>
Interesting, but please keep in mind that of 177 subjects, it's 177
*schooled* subjects (schools, who rely on DSM IIIR diagnoses for federal
funding).

~diana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On Apr 11, 2006, at 10:49 AM, diana jenner wrote:

> Nancy Wooton wrote:
>
>> Method: Subjects were 177 clinic-referred boys, ages 7 to 12 years at
>> the time of the first assessment, who underwent longitudinal
>> assessment
>> for 6 years using annual structured diagnostic interviews.
>>
>>
> Interesting, but please keep in mind that of 177 subjects, it's 177
> *schooled* subjects (schools, who rely on DSM IIIR diagnoses for
> federal
> funding).
>
> ~diana
>

Yeah, I know. It's really easy to dismiss any possibility that
unschooled kids could have behavioral problems related to physical
conditions because studies are always done using the far-more numerous
school kids. Homeschooled kids aren't subject to the kind of
evaluations schooled kids are, so I think it's possible learning
difficulties, hearing problems, vision problems, etc. may be missed
unless we *parents* are aware.

Nancy

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], Nancy Wooton <nancywooton@...>
wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 11, 2006, at 7:04 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:
>
> > Okay, i have been trying to take in the advice i've been given. I had
> > a good cry the other night, and have been reading more articles, and
> > had long discussions with my husband. We have decided to try the no
> > more punishment thing. I am scared though, of what might happen if it
> > doesn't work or i break down and can't handle it. I'm afraid of not
> > being consistent with my children and them resenting me more for it.
> > But maybe if i can ask questions as they come up, and as i learn more
> > about the way you all are with your families i might get the hang of
> > it. I've realized it's true that i don't have to let it upset me when
> > my kids break THEIR things, that the things become THEIRS when i give
> > them to the kids and the things have to be THEIRS for them to ever
> > learn how to care for THEIR things. And maybe i should find things to
> > give them just so they can break them if that's what they like to do.
> > It's true also that the value I put onto books is MY value, not
> > THEIRS, and shouldn't be impossed on them if i want them to learn to
> > think freely. I should let them learn THEIR OWN value for things like
> > books and whatever else.
> > The not throwing and runing in the house thing will be hard because i
> > offer my kids alternatives like playing in the backyard and they
> > always act as though they are being punished if i say "Go outside if
> > you want to wrestle, or rough house, run, throw, etc." Or i might say
> > "Why don't you guys go play baseball or hide and seek?" But sometimes
> > they just refuse my suggestions and continue being high strung
> > indoors. So i have had a rule that if they won't calm down inside i
> > make them go out back. They respond to this like a punishment.
> > It's easy to say "Well why don't you go play baseball with them?" I
> > suppose that's possible some of the time, but solutions like that
> > aren't workable in reality 100% of the time. I'm currently nine months
> > pregnant,
>
> It would have helped the discussion if you'd mentioned this fact.
>
> And from your next post:
>
> "This reminds me of a hurtful argument my mother and i had about me
> quitting smoking last week. She really offended me by making a remark
> about me leaving my children without a mother. I can see her point
> better now after reading this, though i feel she could have stated
> things differently and less harassingly. I have tried to quit smoking
> several times throughout the past year, and i felt she was being
> harassing as though i don't realize how important it is to quit. But i
> just wanted to share that i noticed this philosophy can be applied to
> anything we need to do to better ourselves, not just our parenting. It
> could become "too late" for me to quit smoking, and i think maybe
> that's all my mother was trying to explain to me."
>
> So I'm just guessing here that you smoked during your other pregnancies
> as well. Have you considered that your two boys may have physiological
> conditions that are causing their behavior? Upon reading the details
> you've posted, I've begun to suspect that your boys are behaving
> abnormally. What does their pediatrician say about their behaviors?
> I'm not trying to be mean or hurtful or judgmental, but you came to
> this list asking for help from more experienced unschoolers, and I'm
> probably not the only one who's thinking along these lines. You may
> need medical intervention, rather than parenting advice.
>
> This was from just one try googling "smoking during pregnancy"
> http://www.chem-tox.com/pregnancy/smoking.htm
>
> Smoking During Pregnancy Increases Conduct Disorders
>
> SOURCE: Archives General Psychiatry, 54:670-676, July, 1997
>
> More evidence on the connection between a mother's smoking during
> pregnancy and increased risk of having a child with behavior disorders.
> Below is a direct quote of the summary of the 1997 journal article
> report in the Archives of General Psychiatry, 54:670, 1997.
>
> Background: Previous animal and human studies have indicated that
> prenatal exposure to nicotine isassociated with adverse reproductive
> outcomes, including altered neural structure and functioning,cognitive
> deficits, and behavior problems in the offspring. Our study extends
> previous research onhumans by controlling a broad range of correlates
> of maternal smoking during pregnancy todetermine if smoking is
> associated with behavior problems in the offspring severe enough to
> qualifyfor DSM-III-R diagnoses.
>
> Method: Subjects were 177 clinic-referred boys, ages 7 to 12 years at
> the time of the first assessment, who underwent longitudinal assessment
> for 6 years using annual structured diagnostic interviews. Correlates
> of maternal smoking during pregnancy and previously identified
> demographic, parental, perinatal, and family risk factors for the
> disruptive behavior disorders were controlled in logistic regression
> analyses.
>
> Results: Mothers who smoked more than half a pack of cigarettes daily
> during pregnancy were significantly more likely to have a child with
> conduct disorder (odds ratio, 4.4; P=.001) than mothers who did not
> smoke during pregnancy. This association was statistically significant
> when controlling for socioeconomic status, maternal age, parental
> antisocial personality, substance abuse during pregnancy, and
> maladaptive parenting.
>
> Conclusions: Maternal smoking during pregnancy appears to be a robust
> independent risk factor for conduct disorder in male offspring.
> Maternal smoking during pregnancy may have direct adverse effects on
> the developing fetus or be a marker for a heretofore unmeasured
> characteristic of mothers that is of etiologic significance for conduct
> disorder.
>
> Lauren S. Wakschlag PHD; Benjamin B. Lahey PHD; Rolf Loeber PHD;
> Stephanie M. GreenMS; Rachel A. Gordon MA; Bennett L. Leventhal MD
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Actually i didn't smoke during my other pregnancies. I wouldn't doubt
that some people would suggest putting my older son on Ritalin, but i
don't feel that medicating him is a good choice. I do feel that he is
very smart, creative and whatnot, and just needs to be nutured
correctly as an individual, i'm just still having trouble figuring out
how to do that.

Melissa

I'm going to try and take it one bit at a time...and leave the blue
print in for reference.
>

> . I am scared though, of what might happen if it
> doesn't work or i break down and can't handle it. I'm afraid of not
> being consistent with my children and them resenting me more for it.
You should be aware that the kids will test you a LOT to see if you
will change your mind and start punishing again. If they are
accustomed to you setting limits and then reinforcing them, they are
going to go as far as they possibly can to see if you will revert. I
just wanted to warn you, so that you don't break in the middle and
mess up. If that happens, you will go even further back than you are
now, because they WILL resent and not trust you.
>
> The not throwing and runing in the house thing will be hard because i
> offer my kids alternatives like playing in the backyard and they
> always act as though they are being punished if i say "Go outside if
> you want to wrestle, or rough house, run, throw, etc."

It is a punishment to them, because not only are you sending them
away from you, but you are doing it in the spirit of frustration.
I'll bet if you said, "Let's go outside to play" and then go out with
them, they would love it. I'll bet they LOVED the waterballoon fight.
And there is no reason why you shouldn't do that every day. It sounds
exhausting, but it is your job, and after a while, they won't need
you as much because they will trust that you'll be there when they
need you. And soon they will grow up and not be so intense. You don't
have to play hard, but sometimes your presence to validate them is
all they need. Sitting in a lawn chair and saying "WOw! You can run
really fast" or "I didn't know you could throw the ball so high", or
play as long as you can and say in an exaggerated manner, "Sheesh!
You guys have a lot of energy...mommy needs to sit down and rest the
baby" That's what I usually wind up doing (and I'm pregnant a LOT
lol!) But then I'm sitting there and being involved.
>
> It's easy to say "Well why don't you go play baseball with them?" I
> suppose that's possible some of the time, but solutions like that
> aren't workable in reality 100% of the time. I'm currently nine months
> pregnant, and can't leave food on the stove cooking, for instance, to
> go play baseball.
It's easy to turn the food off to play with your kids, it's easy to
make foods that you don't have to attend to, you just have to make
the choice to do it. I have seven kids, one of whom has a severe
disability, several of whom have moderate issues, and two of whom
have serious food allergies. If I can do it pregnant...so can you.
It's just a matter of turning off the 'what if's?' and choosing to
live this life and be happy doing it.

> (My kids like to run and yell in the house when they
> know i'm busy with something hard to walk away from like cooking or an
> important phone call.)

Because they know it's the best way to get your attention!

> I also have so much to do preparing for the new
> baby

Babies don't need anything but mom and love. Maybe diapers, but not
all moms do that. They don't need a crib, they don't need toys, they
don't need a fresh coat of paint. Take this time when you can't be
doing everything to choose to spend time with your kids. It will make
all the difference. I just did this myself, and came fully to
unschooling when i was on three months bedrest with my last baby. It
was awesome to let all that stuff go!

> that can be and is put off to do things with them sometimes, but
> it can't always be that way. Yesterday, for instance, we played out
> back with water bombs and water guns all afternoon instead of me doing
> the things i know i need to get done and now i'll have a heavier load
> today.
What heavier load? Laundry is laundry, dishes is dishes, dust is
dust. It will always be there, but your kids won't!

>
> What do you do when your four year old wants to climb on the fence and
> it is sharp at the top?
Let him do it. Trust that he has the brains to know when he's gone
too far and be willing to help him out without scolding or saying 'I
told you so'. Encourage him. Don't yell because it throws him off
balance and the worst thing you could do is undermine his self esteem
by fretting.
>
> Or what if they want to drink the whole container of juice boxes in
> one day and you know they will cry for the rest of the week that there
> aren't anymore?
Get more. Or offer something else cool to drink. Chocolate milk.
Homemade lemonade. Water with ice cubes that have plastic bugs frozen
in them.

> Or what if they want to eat the things i buy
> specically for my husband's lunches at work?

Get them the same stuff you buy dh. Or pack theirs up like you pack
his. Or make something new and different for lunch. edible playdough,
pizza rolls, pigs in a blanket, sandwiches cut into shapes. Picnic
outside.

> )If they want to play in the pool, but you know it's not warm
> enough outside should you just let them do it anyway, and hope they
> learn from it when they are cold?

Yep. They will play in it for about ten minutes. Or they might
surprise you and play longer because to them it DOESN"T feel that
cold. Or they might stand on the side and splash or get cups of water
to make mud. have big warm blankets to snuggle them in when they do
get cold. and hot cocoa is always nice ;-)

> Also what do you do about them respecting YOUR things? They
> play with my stuff, and jump on my bed, climb on the car, and get into
> my husband's tools.
I ask the kids to treat my things with respect. I redirect. I ask
them again. I redirect. I ask them again. I redirect. Sounds simple,
but if they are jumping on the bed, it's either because they need
that input or that they need my attention. They aren't jumping on it
just to destroy it. Now, if you made a big deal about how they will
destroy it, and that's the attention they get, it might turn into
that. And some kids just need longer to learn than others. My kids
have their own tools. They climb on the walls outside. They jump on
their own beds, and sometimes they jump on mine. Sometimes *I* jump
on mine. It's fun.

> By the way, i did not exaggerate about things
> getting broken. My children have broken three or four windows within
> the past year, and a ceiling fan, a floor fan and a light fixture.

We've lost a ceiling fan, a sliding glass door and two screens. It
was accidental each time, they just wanted to see what happened and
now they now. They didn't get a lecture about breaking things or
destroying things, so that's not their focus. They've learned that
they can ask me for help. The fan was the funniest thing, because
they thought they could swing around like cartoon characters do.
Well, they didn't ;-) I'm just thankful they didn't break their necks
or pull the whole thing out of the ceiling on their heads.

> That's aside from the books, toys and videos i throw away every time i
> clean their room. It's not that things MIGHT get broken at my house.
> Things DO get broken.
Kids have lots of energy. They need to have lots of mommy too. Some
kids need more sensory input than others and they have to play as
hard as possible just to feel real. The alternative is to have a
spacey kid who is a vegetable. Meds can do that for you. We do lots
of heavy work, we dig holes to china. we dig tigger traps. we build
stuff (lots of hammering and sawing). we jump alot, we climb alot of
trees.
I know you're tired. i feel that you are uncertain of where you are
going. I was there not so long ago. I'm still there sometimes. But we
have a job as parents to make better choices, to know where we are
going. You CAN do this, and you took the first step by admitting you
need help to get there. Make the choice now to keep going. To trust
in your kids and support them, the same way you did when you married
your husband...
hope this is okay

marji

At 10:04 4/11/2006, Lilith wrote:
>We have decided to try the no
>more punishment thing. I am scared though, of what might happen if it
>doesn't work or i break down and can't handle it. I'm afraid of not
>being consistent with my children and them resenting me more for it.

Just go slowly and reasonably; otherwise, it could be destabilizing
for your kids.

>The not throwing and runing in the house thing will be hard because i
>offer my kids alternatives like playing in the backyard and they
>always act as though they are being punished if i say "Go outside if
>you want to wrestle, or rough house, run, throw, etc." Or i might say
>"Why don't you guys go play baseball or hide and seek?" But sometimes
>they just refuse my suggestions and continue being high strung
>indoors. So i have had a rule that if they won't calm down inside i
>make them go out back.

http://sandradodd.com/rules

This is a really helpful page in getting past having rules.

>They respond to this like a punishment.

It sounds to me like a punishment. It might sound more like a helpful
suggestion to them if you included yourself in the mix.

>It's easy to say "Well why don't you go play baseball with them?" I
>suppose that's possible some of the time, but solutions like that
>aren't workable in reality 100% of the time. I'm currently nine months
>pregnant, and can't leave food on the stove cooking, for instance, to
>go play baseball.

True, but you can turn off the stove and go outside with them if they
really need you. Baseball playing is probably not the thing for you
to do right now, but since it's apparent that they really want you to
be with them, all you have to do is be there. With them. Talking
and listening and laughing and being your wonderful self who they really love!

>(My kids like to run and yell in the house when they
>know i'm busy with something hard to walk away from like cooking or an
>important phone call.)

They're trying really hard to get your attention. Give it to
them. Don't make them work so hard!

>I also have so much to do preparing for the new
>baby that can be and is put off to do things with them sometimes, but
>it can't always be that way.

I think this comes under the "...can be too late" category. The
stuff you have to do will always wait for you. The people may not.

>Yesterday, for instance, we played out
>back with water bombs and water guns all afternoon...

Sounds like tremendous fun!!

>...instead of me doing
>the things i know i need to get done and now i'll have a heavier load
>today.

drag it out over more than one day. How much of this stuff do you
really *have* to do, anyway? Babies really only need the arms of their moms.

>But, i am willing to try.

Way to go!

>What do you do when your four year old wants to climb on the fence and
>it is sharp at the top? I felt i NEEDED to tell him not to do it.

Give him information (in a loving, supportive way) that he can use to
make a good decision about climbing the fence. See if there's a way
you can help him do what he wants to do rather than just telling him
he can't. If you can give him information in the right, supportive
way, he'll reach the conclusion that works best for him.

>Or what if they want to drink the whole container of juice boxes in
>one day and you know they will cry for the rest of the week that there
>aren't anymore?

Again, give him the information. And, if he decides to drink all the
juice boxes and then is sad that they're all gone, comfort him, the
way you would any friend who was sad. Don't rub salt into the wound
or say, "I told you so." He'll get it. Or, just make sure you get
enough juice boxes for the week and don't keep them all out where
they can be seen and consumed right away!

>Or what if they want to eat the things i buy
>specically for my husband's lunches at work?(I do buy them their own
>treats.)

Find a way to keep these things out of their sight if you don't want
them to eat them.

>If they want to play in the pool, but you know it's not warm
>enough outside should you just let them do it anyway, and hope they
>learn from it when they are cold?

I have a different perception of the temperature than my son
does. When I'm cold, he's really not. I would not make him wear a
jacket when he's not cold, and I would hope he wouldn't prevent me
from wearing a jacket if I were cold. So, if they want to play in
the pool and it's too cold for you, let them reach the decision based
on their comfort. 'Cause if you prevent them from doing it, they'll
want to do it all the more regardless of their personal comfort or safety.

>This is going to be so hard for me
>to learn. Also what do you do about them respecting YOUR things? They
>play with my stuff, and jump on my bed, climb on the car, and get into
>my husband's tools.

My motto is "People before things." My guitars are very important to
me, and I don't leave 'em out (except one or two) where they can get
hurt. The one or two that I do leave out are fair game. If there's
stuff that you have that would make you sad if it got broken,
consider putting it away for a while until your kids are older and
can be more respectful of your things. If you can do this in a
loving, mindful way, you won't feel so resentful of having to do without.

>We have had a
>rule that if it's not yours don't play with it. I don't know what to
>do about that.

Rules again! What do they really mean to a little one?! Get your
stuff out of harm's way. And, consider rearranging your home so that
it's less convenient for them to run, if you don't want them running
in the living room, say. Replace all the breakable stuff with
unbreakable stuff (for now), and realize that you're sharing your
home with little folks who need the place to be more kid-friendly
than it is right now. That will relieve a lot of the tension your having.

>So if you all haven't given up on me because of my
>negativity yet please help me figure some of this out.

I'm so glad you're willing to hang in there. Jude's gonna have a
great world to come into! Especially if you can kick the habit!!

Be well,
Marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

s.waynforth

I started going through this and responding to each point, but I
realized that there was an overall feel to your post, your need, your
exhaustion that I wanted to respond to. You sound so tired. You write of
being afraid of what will happen if you step away from timeouts and
countdowns to spankings. You write THEIRS in shouting capitals and write
i in lower case tiny letters.

You sound so tired and so angry. When I was pregnant with Linnaea, my
second child, I was tired. I was grouchy. I didn't have a lot of
patience. I was working part time when I was pregnant which felt like
the only time when I got a break. And I felt horribly guilty for
enjoying the break. For enjoying being able to go over to the cafeteria
on the Fridays when I went into the VA and get a coke and just sit at my
computer and work without any distractions. It was lovely to be all on
my own. I've never really felt that way at any other time. I've enjoyed
the luxury of walking quickly to the shops or of not having to be
slightly vigilantly aware of where everyone is when going somewhere
else, but I enjoyed the "just me time" when I was pregnant with Linnaea
more than I ever have before or since. I'm not suggesting that you need
"me time" with your pregnancy in the same way that I did, but maybe you
are tired. Maybe, as this parasitic growth inside you gets closer and
closer to birth, and is taking more and more from you to support her
life, you have less to give to your other dependents. Maybe you need to
schedule in your day pick me ups, little energy boosts of a banana
milkshake or an energy bar or 10 minutes of you and a cup of tea and
some cookies. Maybe you need to think about what really needs to get
done in a day. Maybe you could fix a bunch of freezable meals when your
husband is around that you could just pop in the oven or microwave for
the days when he isn't around, so that you don't have to choose between
being with your children and standing at the stove. Maybe you could get
a crock pot and cook dinner all day and not have to spend a particular
time stuck to the stove. Maybe if you have to cook you could set up
something for the boys to do while you are cooking, a video or a game or
time on the computer or something that would keep them entertained so
that you don't have to feel pulled in to many directions. Maybe you
could order pizza on the nights when you just can't cope anymore. Or buy
a few frozen ones to have as back up for when baseball was too
distracting to keep you standing at the stove.

I don't know what you "have" to do. I don't know what things in your
house are piling up from one day to the next. If I don't get done what I
want to on one day it doesn't feel that bad to address it the next. Are
there ways that you can make your required labor less intense. Buy some
boxes on wheels to toss toys into when you need to clean up the living
room. Soak dishes overnight and do the dishes in the morning. Try and
minimize how much you feel you need to do.

It isn't good that they are breaking windows or that they are breaking
things that are yours. Maybe if you give them something they can play
with in the house when they are trying to use something that will break
or will break other things they won't respond so angrily. Simon just got
an indoor frisbee "called a Superang" for his birthday. Pillows are
usually pretty good, oh, Simon discovered a while ago that a tam, little
round knitted hat that lies flat when it isn't worn, makes a great
indoor frisbee. You could talk to them about why it isn't okay to play
with certain things in the house. Simon got this cool electronic circuit
building set for Christmas that has, among other things, a spinning disc
that you build a launcher for. One of the paintings in our house got
chipped by the disc, and so it isn't something that we use in the living
room unless I've draped a blanket over the painting. If something is
important to you that it not be broken you might want to make sure that
it isn't accessible. If they want to go in the pool when you think it is
too cold, get lots of towels and be prepared to warm them up, make some
hot chocolate or give them a nice warm bath or shower when they are
done. Maybe you could take them to a heated indoor pool. A friend
mentioned that a Holiday Inn near us (in Newcastle, so I don't know if
you can do this in the U.S.) lets you use their pool and jacuzzi for 5
pounds a person, or something, maybe you could go there. Or maybe you
could book a night at a local hotel and stay over, watching new
television and swimming in the pool and enjoying the continental breakfast.

Juice boxes, buy more. Buy more when you go shopping so that they have
lots and lots to drink. If you can't afford to buy more, than make that
something that you talk about. Have them help you figure out what to buy
at the grocery store. If they choose to splurge on the exciting new
foods you just got from the grocery store, that is pretty normal. All
the good fruit goes really quickly around here. And fresh bread is
always more appealing than day old bread. And when it is gone you can
write it on the list for the next grocery run. At some point the thing
that was an exciting splurge will change. Chips last far longer than
strawberries around here. Chips are common, strawberries, good spring
strawberries, are rare, and so get eaten very, very quickly. Artichokes
and edamame and good apple juice and soy milk at the moment are things
that disappear, but we have a box filled with tic tacs (cinnamon which
I've only found in one place here, so we bought the store out) and
starbursts and hohos (cadbury mini rolls really) and gum and coke bottle
candy and wine gums and a bunch of other stuff that has been there for
at least a month and that I'll have to go through soon to throw out what
is stale or melted or gross. Phish food ice cream goes pretty quickly,
but the Fossil Fuel just hasn't moved. But it takes a while to trust
that what you like will be there when you want it. And if you have
equated being good with getting a certain treat, like juice boxes or a
candy bar, than those things taste of more than just a candy bar or a
juice box. And it may take a while for that unintentional raise in value
to dissipate, for food to taste like food instead of like praise or
punishment. Linnaea is right now, this very minute, playing with her
friend for whom chocolate is the most amazing food. She isn't allowed
free access to chocolate. So when she comes over we stock up, and
Linnaea, for whom right now, this very minute, fitting in is very
important, will try and mirror her consumption of chocolate. But she
can't. She just doesn't need it in the same way as her friend needs it.
So, she eats what she can and then gets to share what she couldn't and
didn't want to begin with.

I think, though, the first thing I would look at if I were in your shoes
is how much being pregnant has made you weary. I would think about how
big and how heavy I felt and how feeling that way might be coloring my
vision of the rest of the world. Being pregnant is hard work, and its
constant and it doesn't help you to sleep at night. Try and give
yourself permission to let go of housework and other things right now.
Try and take the time to breathe and relax and not feel everything
mounting around you in some sort of Sarah Sylvia Cynthia Stout who would
not take the garbage out kind of way
(http://www.mste.uiuc.edu/courses/ci407su01/students/north/kristy/Project/K-Poem-Net.html).


Schuyler
>

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 11, 2006, at 8:04 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> And maybe i should find things to
> give them just so they can break them if that's what they like to do.

We used to go to thrift stores and get toys that didn't really work,
or from garage sales, so Marty could take them apart. Sometimes he
could fix them. Sometimes he just saw what it was that didn't work,
and that was cool too. Sometimes it all went in the trash.
Sometimes the parts were interesting, or the case of it was still
cute without lighting up or dinging or whatever it originally did.

Try to live in the middle with how you characterize your kids and
think of them. "And maybe i should find things to give them just so
they can break them if that's what they like to do" sounds like there
is one thing they like to do and once you've found it you know, but
they will like to do 800 things. You need to find a few every day.
And if they are interested in opening up an old wind-up alarm clock,
cool! That doesn't mean they like to break all clocks. You can
help satisfy their curiosities and keep them provided with
interesting things to make, touch, explore without labelling them as
kids who like to break things.

Maybe they don't like to break things at all, except when they're
frustrated and angry.

-=-But sometimes they just refuse my suggestions and continue being
high strung
indoors. -=-

"High strung"?
Would that be bored and needing to move.
Healthy, normal kids NEED to move. They're not just being difficult
when they express their real need to jump and climb and run. They're
not being "high strung." Think about what that really means, please,
if you're going to say it about your children.

-=-So i have had a rule that if they won't calm down inside i
make them go out back. They respond to this like a punishment.
-=-

It is a punishment. It will help you sort through your feelings if
you will really look at what you've been doing and what you've been
calling it to make yourself feel better about all your rules. If you
have a rule that says if you won't do X, you cannot have Y, that IS a
punishment. Your kids are right and you're fooling yourself (and
trying to fool us, because you're writing things down that you
haven't really looked at clearly yourself).

-=-It's easy to say "Well why don't you go play baseball with them?" I
suppose that's possible some of the time, but solutions like that
aren't workable in reality 100% of the time.-=-

Somewhere between 0% and 100% is where you need to be, and if you're
not going to be with them at all, maybe send them to school where
they can find people to run and be with. Seriously. If you're going
to unschool you will HAVE to dedicate time and energy to it. It's
not just having kids at home and ignoring them until they piss you
off enough to yell at them, as some people seem to believe.

-=-I'm currently nine months
pregnant, and can't leave food on the stove cooking, for instance, to
go play baseball.(My kids like to run and yell in the house when they
know i'm busy with something hard to walk away from like cooking or an
important phone call.) -=-

First, being pregnant doesn't make food cook differently.
Maybe playing with your boys should come first and THEN cooking
next. If they boys always come last, they will remain needy.

-=-My kids like to run and yell in the house when they
know i'm busy with something hard to walk away from like cooking or an
important phone call.-=-

When you're ignoring them, they find ways to occupy themselves. You
don't like the things they choose, so you get angry. That wouldn't
have happened, though, if you hadn't ignored them in the first place.

Maybe your boys should come first and THEN phone calls.

-=-What do you do when your four year old wants to climb on the fence
and
it is sharp at the top?-=-

Find him something safe to climb on or stay right there and let him
climb up 2/3 of the way, not to the sharp part.

-=-What do you do when your four year old wants to climb on the fence
and
it is sharp at the top? I felt i NEEDED to tell him not to do it.-=-

Your need was to help him do what he wanted to do and help him not
get hurt. It felt like you needed to tell him no, but what you
needed was to keep him safe. http://sandradodd.com/rules

-=-Or what if they want to drink the whole container of juice boxes in
one day and you know they will cry for the rest of the week that there
aren't anymore?-=-

You don't "know they will cry." To set up a scenario like that and
then respond to it is neither being aware of your children in the
moment nor living now. It's seeing the world as a mass or horrible
outcomes that can only be prevented by controlling the children.

Somewhere between "one juice box a day" and "Drink them all right
now" is a nicer way to be.

-=-Or what if they want to eat the things i buy
specically for my husband's lunches at work?-=-

Put those aside, put them in a brown paper bag or something, tape
them up, don't even let them know they're there. Or buy enough of it
that they can have some and there's still enough for the work lunches.

-=-If they want to play in the pool, but you know it's not warm
enough outside should you just let them do it anyway, and hope they
learn from it when they are cold?-=-

The way you asked it sounds harsh, like you hope they're cold, and
you hope they learn their lesson. What if they're not that cold?
What if they don't mind?

My mom would be really angry when she made a dire prediction and it
didn't come true. If she said "You'll get sick" and I didn't, she
was pretty grumpy. She WANTED me to suffer. She wanted to be right,
but her assertions and theories were extreme and wrong and mean.

Guys swim in ice-cold water in some parts of the world. In some
places they go between natural hot springs, or saunas, and ice-cold
water. It's not so crazy to just want to play in a pool that would
be too cold for you. Maybe they'll just want to get in a little bit
and get right back out. Would you feel the need to talk to them
about it if they did, and say "I told you so?" If you could say
"Okay," and then "Was it fun?" when they get back, that would be
nice. Kids play in the snow, and then they come in to sit by a fire
and drink hot chocolate. If you think it will be too cold for them,
maybe you could have towels to wrap up in and a nice DVD to watch
while they get warm. That wouldn't be too much work, but might seem
like a party to them.

-=-Also what do you do about them respecting YOUR things? They
play with my stuff, and jump on my bed, climb on the car, and get into
my husband's tools. -=-

What I did was respect my children and their things from before they
could remember, so they've been pretty good about my things. You
can't expect kids to know what you know. Years ago, Kirby broke the
hardwood pointer that was my souvenir of being a teacher. I used it
as a prop the first time I ever spoke at a conference. He didn't
know it was any more important than any old dowel or stick around the
house. I cried and he felt bad. I didn't punish him. It wouldn't
have brought the stick back, and it wouldn't have made him care more
about me or my things.

-=-My children have broken three or four windows within
the past year, and a ceiling fan, a floor fan and a light fixture.-=-

I think you're leaving them to take care of each other too much.
Unschooling will work well if you do things with them, lots, or with
one of them, or with all of your kids. And fewer things will get
broken if you're there and they have something better to do.

-=-That's aside from the books, toys and videos i throw away every
time i
clean their room.-=-

Do you throw away things that aren't broken? Maybe they don't
respect your things because you don't respect their things.

-=-We have had a rule that if it's not yours don't play with it. I
don't know what to
do about that.-=-

Too many rules. There's a link up above that looks like it's about
rules but it's about principles.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 11, 2006, at 11:36 AM, Nancy Wooton wrote:

> Method: Subjects were 177 clinic-referred boys, ages 7 to 12 years at
> the time of the first assessment, who underwent longitudinal
> assessment
> for 6 years using annual structured diagnostic interviews. Correlates
> of maternal smoking during pregnancy and previously identified
> demographic, parental, perinatal, and family risk factors for the
> disruptive behavior disorders were controlled in logistic regression
> analyses.

Yeah, well...
Their group didn't include people who wouldn't otherwise smoke but
who smoked during pregnancy anyway.

And by that I mean their WHOLE group was people who chose to smoke
even though they knew smoking was bad for them, pregnant or not. And
they chose to smoke during pregnancy.

Maybe even if tobacco had never existed, parents who make choices
like that will have children who make choices like that.

Sandra

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 11, 2006, at 8:04 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:
>
> > And maybe i should find things to
> > give them just so they can break them if that's what they like to do.
>
> We used to go to thrift stores and get toys that didn't really work,
> or from garage sales, so Marty could take them apart. Sometimes he
> could fix them. Sometimes he just saw what it was that didn't work,
> and that was cool too. Sometimes it all went in the trash.
> Sometimes the parts were interesting, or the case of it was still
> cute without lighting up or dinging or whatever it originally did.
>
> Try to live in the middle with how you characterize your kids and
> think of them. "And maybe i should find things to give them just so
> they can break them if that's what they like to do" sounds like there
> is one thing they like to do and once you've found it you know, but
> they will like to do 800 things. You need to find a few every day.
> And if they are interested in opening up an old wind-up alarm clock,
> cool! That doesn't mean they like to break all clocks. You can
> help satisfy their curiosities and keep them provided with
> interesting things to make, touch, explore without labelling them as
> kids who like to break things.
>
> Maybe they don't like to break things at all, except when they're
> frustrated and angry.
>
> -=-But sometimes they just refuse my suggestions and continue being
> high strung
> indoors. -=-
>
> "High strung"?
> Would that be bored and needing to move.
> Healthy, normal kids NEED to move. They're not just being difficult
> when they express their real need to jump and climb and run. They're
> not being "high strung." Think about what that really means, please,
> if you're going to say it about your children.
>
> -=-So i have had a rule that if they won't calm down inside i
> make them go out back. They respond to this like a punishment.
> -=-
>
> It is a punishment. It will help you sort through your feelings if
> you will really look at what you've been doing and what you've been
> calling it to make yourself feel better about all your rules. If you
> have a rule that says if you won't do X, you cannot have Y, that IS a
> punishment. Your kids are right and you're fooling yourself (and
> trying to fool us, because you're writing things down that you
> haven't really looked at clearly yourself).
>
> -=-It's easy to say "Well why don't you go play baseball with them?" I
> suppose that's possible some of the time, but solutions like that
> aren't workable in reality 100% of the time.-=-
>
> Somewhere between 0% and 100% is where you need to be, and if you're
> not going to be with them at all, maybe send them to school where
> they can find people to run and be with. Seriously. If you're going
> to unschool you will HAVE to dedicate time and energy to it. It's
> not just having kids at home and ignoring them until they piss you
> off enough to yell at them, as some people seem to believe.
>
> -=-I'm currently nine months
> pregnant, and can't leave food on the stove cooking, for instance, to
> go play baseball.(My kids like to run and yell in the house when they
> know i'm busy with something hard to walk away from like cooking or an
> important phone call.) -=-
>
> First, being pregnant doesn't make food cook differently.
> Maybe playing with your boys should come first and THEN cooking
> next. If they boys always come last, they will remain needy.
>
> -=-My kids like to run and yell in the house when they
> know i'm busy with something hard to walk away from like cooking or an
> important phone call.-=-
>
> When you're ignoring them, they find ways to occupy themselves. You
> don't like the things they choose, so you get angry. That wouldn't
> have happened, though, if you hadn't ignored them in the first place.
>
> Maybe your boys should come first and THEN phone calls.
>
> -=-What do you do when your four year old wants to climb on the fence
> and
> it is sharp at the top?-=-
>
> Find him something safe to climb on or stay right there and let him
> climb up 2/3 of the way, not to the sharp part.
>
> -=-What do you do when your four year old wants to climb on the fence
> and
> it is sharp at the top? I felt i NEEDED to tell him not to do it.-=-
>
> Your need was to help him do what he wanted to do and help him not
> get hurt. It felt like you needed to tell him no, but what you
> needed was to keep him safe. http://sandradodd.com/rules
>
> -=-Or what if they want to drink the whole container of juice boxes in
> one day and you know they will cry for the rest of the week that there
> aren't anymore?-=-
>
> You don't "know they will cry." To set up a scenario like that and
> then respond to it is neither being aware of your children in the
> moment nor living now. It's seeing the world as a mass or horrible
> outcomes that can only be prevented by controlling the children.
>
> Somewhere between "one juice box a day" and "Drink them all right
> now" is a nicer way to be.
>
> -=-Or what if they want to eat the things i buy
> specically for my husband's lunches at work?-=-
>
> Put those aside, put them in a brown paper bag or something, tape
> them up, don't even let them know they're there. Or buy enough of it
> that they can have some and there's still enough for the work lunches.
>
> -=-If they want to play in the pool, but you know it's not warm
> enough outside should you just let them do it anyway, and hope they
> learn from it when they are cold?-=-
>
> The way you asked it sounds harsh, like you hope they're cold, and
> you hope they learn their lesson. What if they're not that cold?
> What if they don't mind?
>
> My mom would be really angry when she made a dire prediction and it
> didn't come true. If she said "You'll get sick" and I didn't, she
> was pretty grumpy. She WANTED me to suffer. She wanted to be right,
> but her assertions and theories were extreme and wrong and mean.
>
> Guys swim in ice-cold water in some parts of the world. In some
> places they go between natural hot springs, or saunas, and ice-cold
> water. It's not so crazy to just want to play in a pool that would
> be too cold for you. Maybe they'll just want to get in a little bit
> and get right back out. Would you feel the need to talk to them
> about it if they did, and say "I told you so?" If you could say
> "Okay," and then "Was it fun?" when they get back, that would be
> nice. Kids play in the snow, and then they come in to sit by a fire
> and drink hot chocolate. If you think it will be too cold for them,
> maybe you could have towels to wrap up in and a nice DVD to watch
> while they get warm. That wouldn't be too much work, but might seem
> like a party to them.
>
> -=-Also what do you do about them respecting YOUR things? They
> play with my stuff, and jump on my bed, climb on the car, and get into
> my husband's tools. -=-
>
> What I did was respect my children and their things from before they
> could remember, so they've been pretty good about my things. You
> can't expect kids to know what you know. Years ago, Kirby broke the
> hardwood pointer that was my souvenir of being a teacher. I used it
> as a prop the first time I ever spoke at a conference. He didn't
> know it was any more important than any old dowel or stick around the
> house. I cried and he felt bad. I didn't punish him. It wouldn't
> have brought the stick back, and it wouldn't have made him care more
> about me or my things.
>
> -=-My children have broken three or four windows within
> the past year, and a ceiling fan, a floor fan and a light fixture.-=-
>
> I think you're leaving them to take care of each other too much.
> Unschooling will work well if you do things with them, lots, or with
> one of them, or with all of your kids. And fewer things will get
> broken if you're there and they have something better to do.
>
> -=-That's aside from the books, toys and videos i throw away every
> time i
> clean their room.-=-
>
> Do you throw away things that aren't broken? Maybe they don't
> respect your things because you don't respect their things.
>
> -=-We have had a rule that if it's not yours don't play with it. I
> don't know what to
> do about that.-=-
>
> Too many rules. There's a link up above that looks like it's about
> rules but it's about principles.
>
> Sandra
>
You are still making it out as though you assume i don't spend time
with my kids and i just like to throw their mistakes up in their
faces. No, i wouldn't hope they got cold. That's ridiculous to assume.
Not wanting them to be cold would be my reasoning for not wanting them
in the pool in the first place. I just really don't appreciate that
type of response. I have been staying home since my first son was
born, and i have been an attentive parent. A window can get broken
when you are in the room. And my point about being pregnant had
nothing to do with cooking, it was an example of a way that i'm
limited right now in what i can do with my children. My doctor would
tell me not to lift them, that is a limitation. I don't think letting
myself get hit in the stomache with a baseball or bat by accident
would be a good idea either. I really wish you could just keep harsh
assumptions to yourself. I want my children to learn and grow, and
everything about my parenting does not revolve around my ego as you
seem to assume it does. I didn't ask those questions sarcastically
just to test the responses i would get. I asked about things that were
real concerns of mine yesterday when i started trying to do this.

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 11, 2006, at 7:17 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> You are still making it out as though you assume i don't spend time
> with my kids and i just like to throw their mistakes up in their
> faces. No, i wouldn't hope they got cold. That's ridiculous to assume.

It's not ridiculous.

I'm asking you questions so that you can really examine why you've
chosen to write what you've written.

You have chosen your own words. You picked the stories to tell, the
words to use, the tone, the punctuation, and you decided to hit "send."

Now stop insulting people who read what you wrote and interpret it
through the lens of their more gentle lives. Telling me I'm wrong
doesn't make me wrong. Telling me I'm wrong doesn't make you right.
You need to BE right, not just throw more words at it.

I am not "making it out as though" you don't spend enough time with
your kids. I have two boys, two and a half years apart in age. I
know how long it takes to break a heater or a fan, and I know it
doesn't happen when the mom is in the room. You want to be cooking
in one room while your kids are doing something peaceful and quiet
and safe in another room. That's not happening. I'm not assuming
it's not happening, you're assuring us that it's not happening. You
want to discover TWO WEEKS after something is broken that it's lying
in your own yard in pieces, and then get mad at your child. You
didn't spend much time in your yard during two weeks, or am I making
a ridiculous assumption about that too?

-=-A window can get broken
when you are in the room. -=-

Yes it can. Were you in the room when any of those windows got
broken? (You don't need to tell us, you need to consider whether
your statement "A window can get broken when you are in the room" has
anything to do with YOUR windows getting broken.

-=-And my point about being pregnant had nothing to do with cooking-=-

It was in the same sentence. Like "cold" and "pool" were in the
same sentence.

-=-I really wish you could just keep harsh assumptions to yourself.-=-

For how long? Until your kids are grown? Until you forget that you
asked for help?

-=-I didn't ask those questions sarcastically
just to test the responses i would get. -=-

I assumed (not ridiculously) that you asked the questions because you
wanted honest answers from people who might be willing to volunteer
to read what you wrote and freely offer you suggestions to change
directions.

Sandra

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 11, 2006, at 7:17 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:
>
> > You are still making it out as though you assume i don't spend time
> > with my kids and i just like to throw their mistakes up in their
> > faces. No, i wouldn't hope they got cold. That's ridiculous to assume.
>
> It's not ridiculous.
>

> I'm asking you questions so that you can really examine why you've
> chosen to write what you've written.
>
> You have chosen your own words. You picked the stories to tell, the
> words to use, the tone, the punctuation, and you decided to hit "send."
>
> Now stop insulting people who read what you wrote and interpret it
> through the lens of their more gentle lives. Telling me I'm wrong
> doesn't make me wrong. Telling me I'm wrong doesn't make you right.
> You need to BE right, not just throw more words at it.
>
> I am not "making it out as though" you don't spend enough time with
> your kids. I have two boys, two and a half years apart in age. I
> know how long it takes to break a heater or a fan, and I know it
> doesn't happen when the mom is in the room. You want to be cooking
> in one room while your kids are doing something peaceful and quiet
> and safe in another room. That's not happening. I'm not assuming
> it's not happening, you're assuring us that it's not happening. You
> want to discover TWO WEEKS after something is broken that it's lying
> in your own yard in pieces, and then get mad at your child. You
> didn't spend much time in your yard during two weeks, or am I making
> a ridiculous assumption about that too?
>
> -=-A window can get broken
> when you are in the room. -=-
>
> Yes it can. Were you in the room when any of those windows got
> broken? (You don't need to tell us, you need to consider whether
> your statement "A window can get broken when you are in the room" has
> anything to do with YOUR windows getting broken.
>
> -=-And my point about being pregnant had nothing to do with cooking-=-
>
> It was in the same sentence. Like "cold" and "pool" were in the
> same sentence.
>
> -=-I really wish you could just keep harsh assumptions to yourself.-=-
>
> For how long? Until your kids are grown? Until you forget that you
> asked for help?
>
> -=-I didn't ask those questions sarcastically
> just to test the responses i would get. -=-
>
> I assumed (not ridiculously) that you asked the questions because you
> wanted honest answers from people who might be willing to volunteer
> to read what you wrote and freely offer you suggestions to change
> directions.
>
> Sandra
>

Here is an example of you making an incorrect assumption:

"You want to discover TWO WEEKS after something is broken that it's
lying in your own yard in pieces, and then get mad at your child. You
didn't spend much time in your yard during two weeks, or am I making
a ridiculous assumption about that too?"

If'll you'll look back at my previous post what i said was:

"I bought my kids big plastic magnifying glasses and a bug house, so
they could observe bugs. A couple weeks later i found one of the
magnifying glasses destroyed in the backyard."

You are reading alot into this statement that isn't there. I never
said it was broken for two weeks before i found it. I said i found it
broken two weeks later. For all i know it happened that day. I had
seen the glasses in use between the time i bought them and the time i
found one broken. I never said i didn't. I had seen it just laying out
there on the table before it was broken too. One day i walked out and
saw it smashed all over the ground. That day was about two weeks after
i had bought them.

Just because a person doesn't state every detail of a situation
doesn't make it correct to imply details that aren't there.
It just seems to me that you do this with almost every statement i
make. Implying details that aren't there doesn't tell you anything
more truthful about me or my situation that what i have actually said
whether you feel there is a lack of detail or not.

If i had meant that it had been broken for two weeks and then i found
it i would have stated it that way. But that isn't what i meant.
That's what you incorrectly assumed i meant.

And as far as being insulting goes, i feel you are being insulting to
me. So we both feel insulted by each other, and that isn't a matter of
being right or wrong. Feelings are irrational processes and rational
thought like concepts of right and wrong don't invalidate them. We are
both valid in feeling insulted. I don't care about trying to prove
who's right or wrong. What i would like is to talk to you about these
issues without us insulting each other over misconceptions. I would
like for you to understand the things i say. That's my goal, not just
to make you feel like i'm right about something and you are not.

And to clarify, when i say you incorrectly assumed, what i mean by
that is that your assumption is not the truth of the way the situation
actually happened.

diana jenner

Nancy Wooton wrote:

>It's really easy to dismiss any possibility that
>unschooled kids could have behavioral problems related to physical
>conditions because studies are always done using the far-more numerous
>school kids.
>
>
Actually, there may indeed be a link between toxins and behavior, I just
doubt it could be at a DSM III-R level in a full, rich, unschooling
environment with a mindful parent present.
I found allergens that affected Hayden's behavior, we discussed them.
When he's offered, he either knowingly exposes himself and we deal with
it (yellow food coloring makes him susceptible to symptoms from
headaches [which lead to/mask as crabbiness if mom's not alert/aware] to
bedwetting) or he turns it down.
This isn't the original topic/toxin, but it is another example of where
parenting styles really do make a difference in behavioral studies and
especially with boys between those ages (7-12) -- I've seen lots of boys
between those ages and, indeed, there are HUGE differences between
schooled & unschooled. Not a judgment, an observation.

~diana
[the same observation is available to you this September at the Live &
Learn Conference!]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

diana jenner

lilith_pouia wrote:

>needs to be nutured
>correctly as an individual, i'm just still having trouble figuring out
>how to do that.
>
>
That realization is critical to an unschooling commitment, the figuring
it out comes out of that commitment... you're in the right place to hear
the things that will show you the path, you need to be brave enough to
walk it. It's hard, but not impossible; worth the effort!
~diana


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Apr 11, 2006, at 10:48 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> You are reading alot into this statement that isn't there.

It will help you help yourself if step back away from the situations
and not take the responses personally.

No one's reading what you've written and thinking "bad mommy". We're
looking at situations and offering ways of responding to similar
situations that will help you and your kids live more peaceful lives.

Personally I look at each post as a problem to solve. They're like
math word problems to me. I'm not thinking about the author, just the
situation.

You will help yourself get more helpful answers if you *don't* see
your goal as making a good impression but to express a problem your
having as clearly as you can so you can get responses that will help
with that problem. Because that's all that anyone on this type of
list really cares about: helping people find more peaceful solutions.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 11, 2006, at 8:48 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> And as far as being insulting goes, i feel you are being insulting to
> me. So we both feel insulted by each other, and that isn't a matter of
> being right or wrong. Feelings are irrational processes and rational
> thought like concepts of right and wrong don't invalidate them. We are
> both valid in feeling insulted. I don't care about trying to prove
> who's right or wrong. What i would like is to talk to you about these
> issues without us insulting each other over misconceptions. I would
> like for you to understand the things i say. That's my goal, not just
> to make you feel like i'm right about something and you are not.

I don't feel insulted.
I was speaking from the point of view of your children, who feel
insulted.

If it hurts your feelings to hear that your children need you more,
that's not a bad thing.

Feelings are not irrational processes. There are reasons that
children feel their parents are being mean or are spending more time
talking at them than listening to them, or more time being mad at
them than just BEING with them.

-=- I don't care about trying to prove who's right or wrong.-=-

I don't either. I only care that you came to my list to ask for ways
to make your homelife better and that you shouldn't leave here
without lots of ideas and feedback. What's right and true is that
my kids are living peacefully. If you want to use some of what we're
doing, you're absolutely welcome to it. It won't hurt my kids any
for you to be angry and deny what's going on at your house. It might
hurt your kids some, but not mine.

-=- I would like for you to understand the things i say. That's my
goal-=-

I don't need to understand the things you say.
You do.

A better goal might be for you to understand the things experienced
unschoolers on this list say, for the benefit of your family.

Sandra

marji

At 21:17 4/11/2006, Lilith wrote:
>You are still making it out as though you assume i don't spend time
>with my kids and i just like to throw their mistakes up in their
>faces. No, i wouldn't hope they got cold. That's ridiculous to assume.
>Not wanting them to be cold would be my reasoning for not wanting them
>in the pool in the first place. I just really don't appreciate that
>type of response.

This has really touched a nerve in you. I find for me that the
things that send me over the edge defensively are the things that
have some truth to them. Is it possible that you could get quiet and
see where the truth lies. It doesn't have to be all one way or all
the other; it could be the speck of truth that's irritating you. Can
you see that?

>And my point about being pregnant had
>nothing to do with cooking, it was an example of a way that i'm
>limited right now in what i can do with my children. My doctor would
>tell me not to lift them, that is a limitation. I don't think letting
>myself get hit in the stomache with a baseball or bat by accident
>would be a good idea either.

From this response I'm getting that you've got a lot of fear. I
wouldn't like to get hit with a baseball accidentally, pregnant or
not, but I'm not going to sequester myself from my son's activities
just in case. What kind of life would that be?! For that matter, I
should give up driving the car in case I get into an accident, stop
walking up and down the stairs in case I fall, stop cooking in case I
burn myself, stop ... well, you get the idea. I refuse to live my
life based on fear of what *could* happen. Or, based on lack and
limitation. I don't want my son to, either.

I'm not trying to be facetious (I *am* facetious!). :-) I'm really
trying to help you see how you may be operating from a place of fear
rather than a place of joy. Joy is way better than fear.

But, you have to be willing to look at yourself and see where your
fear is. And then, push through it.

For my whole life before my son was born I had a morbid, intense fear
of spiders. (In fact, as a little kid I was afraid of nearly
everything: dogs, cats, birds, butterflies, bees, and even feathers
for a while. All those fears gradually fell away as I got older, but
the spider fear hung on. **I guess the fear served me well.**) It
was intense, and even into my 30s, if I saw a little spider on the
wall way across the room, I would freak out and I would need to have
someone "get rid of it" for me (it was like I was taking a contract
out on the poor guy, whose only crime was looking like a spider. I
had lots of guilt around that!). Then, our son was born, and we
moved into a little cottage in the woods. Lots of spiders. Big, big
ones. I began to see that fear as a luxury I couldn't afford. I
thought that if I was irrationally afraid of spiders, Liam could
catch my fear like a virus! So, I stopped. Each time I saw a spider
I made the conscious choice to allow my fear to move through me and
leave. Whenever we saw spiders or anything (I really was not that
afraid of anything else, just spiders), like snakes or bees or some
other creepy-crawly, we would both quietly observe it. And, I got to
the point where I could trap a big spider (without fear) and just
escort the guy out of the house and into the woods. Liam does have
some small trepidation about spiders and bees, but nothing like what
I had as a kid. And, because we're together a lot, I have to
opportunity to help him calm himself about it.

I just wanted to be sure that he could see an adult living a life
that was not based on fear. But, I also really wanted to be a person
who does not operate out of fear.

Be well,
Marji



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], marji <marji@...> wrote:
>
> At 21:17 4/11/2006, Lilith wrote:
> >You are still making it out as though you assume i don't spend time
> >with my kids and i just like to throw their mistakes up in their
> >faces. No, i wouldn't hope they got cold. That's ridiculous to assume.
> >Not wanting them to be cold would be my reasoning for not wanting them
> >in the pool in the first place. I just really don't appreciate that
> >type of response.
>
> This has really touched a nerve in you. I find for me that the
> things that send me over the edge defensively are the things that
> have some truth to them. Is it possible that you could get quiet and
> see where the truth lies. It doesn't have to be all one way or all
> the other; it could be the speck of truth that's irritating you. Can
> you see that?
>
> >And my point about being pregnant had
> >nothing to do with cooking, it was an example of a way that i'm
> >limited right now in what i can do with my children. My doctor would
> >tell me not to lift them, that is a limitation. I don't think letting
> >myself get hit in the stomache with a baseball or bat by accident
> >would be a good idea either.
>
> From this response I'm getting that you've got a lot of fear. I
> wouldn't like to get hit with a baseball accidentally, pregnant or
> not, but I'm not going to sequester myself from my son's activities
> just in case. What kind of life would that be?! For that matter, I
> should give up driving the car in case I get into an accident, stop
> walking up and down the stairs in case I fall, stop cooking in case I
> burn myself, stop ... well, you get the idea. I refuse to live my
> life based on fear of what *could* happen. Or, based on lack and
> limitation. I don't want my son to, either.
>
> I'm not trying to be facetious (I *am* facetious!). :-) I'm really
> trying to help you see how you may be operating from a place of fear
> rather than a place of joy. Joy is way better than fear.
>
> But, you have to be willing to look at yourself and see where your
> fear is. And then, push through it.
>
> For my whole life before my son was born I had a morbid, intense fear
> of spiders. (In fact, as a little kid I was afraid of nearly
> everything: dogs, cats, birds, butterflies, bees, and even feathers
> for a while. All those fears gradually fell away as I got older, but
> the spider fear hung on. **I guess the fear served me well.**) It
> was intense, and even into my 30s, if I saw a little spider on the
> wall way across the room, I would freak out and I would need to have
> someone "get rid of it" for me (it was like I was taking a contract
> out on the poor guy, whose only crime was looking like a spider. I
> had lots of guilt around that!). Then, our son was born, and we
> moved into a little cottage in the woods. Lots of spiders. Big, big
> ones. I began to see that fear as a luxury I couldn't afford. I
> thought that if I was irrationally afraid of spiders, Liam could
> catch my fear like a virus! So, I stopped. Each time I saw a spider
> I made the conscious choice to allow my fear to move through me and
> leave. Whenever we saw spiders or anything (I really was not that
> afraid of anything else, just spiders), like snakes or bees or some
> other creepy-crawly, we would both quietly observe it. And, I got to
> the point where I could trap a big spider (without fear) and just
> escort the guy out of the house and into the woods. Liam does have
> some small trepidation about spiders and bees, but nothing like what
> I had as a kid. And, because we're together a lot, I have to
> opportunity to help him calm himself about it.
>
> I just wanted to be sure that he could see an adult living a life
> that was not based on fear. But, I also really wanted to be a person
> who does not operate out of fear.
>
> Be well,
> Marji
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
You're absolutely right. I have a lot of fears, a lot of insecurities,
and i'm very sensitive right now. I am afraid my child will be cold in
he gets in the pool, afraid he will get cut if he climbs on the fence,
and afraid of not making the right choices as a parent. You guys
sharing your personal experiences and suggestions with me is
benefiting me greatly in learning to let go of fears and think
differntly. For instance, i saw that they choose not to get in the
pool and played with water balloons instead stopping to come get
wrapped in a towel when they were cold. I saw that my four year old
climbed on the fence over and over and didn't cut himself. And
although he had three juice boxes in a row the first day he only asked
for one yesterday. I had a talk with dh last night about it. My son is
no more likely to cut himself on the fence than to cut himself or
break an arm for that matter, falling out of a tree, off his bike, or
off of a tramoline. But i don't tell him not to climb trees or ride
his bike. My worries about his safety are still the same, but i cope
with them internally and watch him do what he has fun doing. I need to
learn to handle the things that have been less excepted in my mind the
same way. It's just hard to see at first that things you previously
thought were good parenting techniques in fact are not. From my
previous point of view i would be being a neglectful mother to let my
children do things i thought i knew better about. This is because i
don't want my children to suffer. It's taking time to see that they
may be suffering more because of the limitations i put on their lives
to help me cope with my own fears. There are still just a lot of
things about this that seem confusing to me, and i feel it doesn't
help when one person will just post over and over again that my kids
need me more. I realize they need me more. What i need help with is
understanding how to do that and make it workable in life. I feel that
sometimes Sandra cuts down my questioning, and lack of understanding
as though the answer is so straightforward and simple. Okay, they need
me more, i get that point. But sometimes the answers seem to
contradict each other. For instance, how does a woman manage to turn
off the cooking and go play when she has seven kids that may all want
something differnt for dinner? Not that i have seven children myself,
but i do have two and dh to make dinner for at night, and i can see
how solutions like pop some frozen dinners in the oven is a workable
solution for me, for certain times, but what if everyone is crying at
you that they all want something different, they are hungry now, and
they don't want to let you alone long enough to make it. I can't
imagine how an amazing lady with seven kids manages. It's not that i
just don't want to accept the answers, it's just that i am confused,
and afraid of how it will actually work out in practice. This is new
and strange to me and i feel that i benefit more from others sharing
how they manage to do it than being told my children need me more. I'm
already trying to be here for them more and in new ways. I do greatly
aprreciate ALL of the suggestions EVERYONE has made so far that relate
to helping me figure out how to change. I already realize i need to
change, that's not the part i need help with. I do think you've put a
finger on a large part of it for me. I need to get past my fears and
not project them onto my children and other people.

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 12, 2006, at 8:15 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> . I feel that
> sometimes Sandra cuts down my questioning, and lack of understanding
> as though the answer is so straightforward and simple.

Shhhh....
Don't make it about me. Let's talk about the simple answer.

The simple answer is to set your priorities so that your children
come first. Not their future or imagined safety, but them NOW.
Feelings and communications NOW. What do they want or need NOW?

If you're living in a flurry if imagined disaster and woe, you're not
even here now.

Simply stop the other things and be with your child directly, eyes to
eyes, without a thousand thoughts in your head about what else you
could/should/might be doing.

-=-But sometimes the answers seem to
contradict each other. For instance, how does a woman manage to turn
off the cooking and go play when she has seven kids that may all want
something differnt for dinner?-=-

How does a circus manager turn off cooking when an elephant is loose
and the train is coming and the bill collector is at the door?

Making up a hypothetical worse story might seem to make your own
situation simpler and more justifiable, but it's a way for you to do
something besides be with your child, directly and calmly and simply
attentive in the moment.

-=-ut what if everyone is crying at
you that they all want something different, they are hungry now, and
they don't want to let you alone long enough to make it. I-=-

Are they doing that? You've slipped into another stressful "what if"
scenario.

If someone has had direct and personal attention, he won't be hungry
and wanting something different at the same time everyone else, the
imaginary seven kids, the elephant and the bill collector all want
something else at the same time.

-=-it's just that i am confused, and afraid -=-

I cut out the extra words there, which weren't about your children.

http://sandradodd.com/typical

There are the typical days many unschooling moms sent in. Lots of
them wrote about little kids. I don't think many of the days
involved automobile travel.

Those are examples of how it works out in practice.

-=-i feel that i benefit more from others sharing
how they manage to do it than being told my children need me more-=-

Very often people come here thinking they know what they need or what
will help them, only to find in retrospect that if they had stopped
writing so much and taken some of the earliest advice they received,
they would have started making progress days or weeks or months
earlier. It happens frequently.

-=-I already realize i need to change, that's not the part i need
help with.-=-

That is exactly the part you need help with.

-=-I need to get past my fears and
not project them onto my children and other people.-=-

That is the change you need to make. But before you work on getting
past your fears, and as a part of that work, be with your children.
From what you see working with them, and from the changes you see in
them, your fears will start to dissolve.

Here are two things on how people "got it," got unschooling and the
things they were reading but not understanding.

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/gettingit
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit

Put your children first even right now, as you're angry with me for
what you somehow see as keeping you from getting what you need.
This is about your kids, not about you, or me. Your children need
you to be a gentle, peaceful, attentive, mindful way. You can do it,
but not while you're arguing about whether you can do it.

Sandra

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 12, 2006, at 8:15 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:
>
> > . I feel that
> > sometimes Sandra cuts down my questioning, and lack of understanding
> > as though the answer is so straightforward and simple.
>
> Shhhh....
> Don't make it about me. Let's talk about the simple answer.
>
> The simple answer is to set your priorities so that your children
> come first. Not their future or imagined safety, but them NOW.
> Feelings and communications NOW. What do they want or need NOW?
>
> If you're living in a flurry if imagined disaster and woe, you're not
> even here now.
>
> Simply stop the other things and be with your child directly, eyes to
> eyes, without a thousand thoughts in your head about what else you
> could/should/might be doing.
>
> -=-But sometimes the answers seem to
> contradict each other. For instance, how does a woman manage to turn
> off the cooking and go play when she has seven kids that may all want
> something differnt for dinner?-=-
>
> How does a circus manager turn off cooking when an elephant is loose
> and the train is coming and the bill collector is at the door?
>
> Making up a hypothetical worse story might seem to make your own
> situation simpler and more justifiable, but it's a way for you to do
> something besides be with your child, directly and calmly and simply
> attentive in the moment.
>
> -=-ut what if everyone is crying at
> you that they all want something different, they are hungry now, and
> they don't want to let you alone long enough to make it. I-=-
>
> Are they doing that? You've slipped into another stressful "what if"
> scenario.
>
> If someone has had direct and personal attention, he won't be hungry
> and wanting something different at the same time everyone else, the
> imaginary seven kids, the elephant and the bill collector all want
> something else at the same time.
>
> -=-it's just that i am confused, and afraid -=-
>
> I cut out the extra words there, which weren't about your children.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/typical
>
> There are the typical days many unschooling moms sent in. Lots of
> them wrote about little kids. I don't think many of the days
> involved automobile travel.
>
> Those are examples of how it works out in practice.
>
> -=-i feel that i benefit more from others sharing
> how they manage to do it than being told my children need me more-=-
>
> Very often people come here thinking they know what they need or what
> will help them, only to find in retrospect that if they had stopped
> writing so much and taken some of the earliest advice they received,
> they would have started making progress days or weeks or months
> earlier. It happens frequently.
>
> -=-I already realize i need to change, that's not the part i need
> help with.-=-
>
> That is exactly the part you need help with.
>
> -=-I need to get past my fears and
> not project them onto my children and other people.-=-
>
> That is the change you need to make. But before you work on getting
> past your fears, and as a part of that work, be with your children.
> From what you see working with them, and from the changes you see in
> them, your fears will start to dissolve.
>
> Here are two things on how people "got it," got unschooling and the
> things they were reading but not understanding.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/unschool/gettingit
> http://sandradodd.com/seeingit
>
> Put your children first even right now, as you're angry with me for
> what you somehow see as keeping you from getting what you need.
> This is about your kids, not about you, or me. Your children need
> you to be a gentle, peaceful, attentive, mindful way. You can do it,
> but not while you're arguing about whether you can do it.
>
> Sandra
>
Thank you.

Melissa

That would be me...LOL! I appreciate the descriptive, but amazing
probably isn't the way it really is. Last night we ate dinner at 9pm.
The kids were fine, they were happy because I had spent the day with
them, and they had snacks to help them wait. I have a ton of
solutions for how to cook for a large family on a different type of
schedule, cleaning, etc, if you're truly interested. I can email you
privately if you really want suggestions, or should we take up space
on the board with it? maybe it would make a good set of posts for
reference (Sandra, you're the list owner, what do you think?)
And I can honestly say that we have never had an instance where all
seven kids want something different. On days when it's heading
towards that, we have buffet night, with bowls and platters of
leftovers or taco makings or burger and hotdog stuff. My toughest
thing has been changing our meals to deal with a wheat allergy and a
corn allergy.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:15 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:
> For instance, how does a woman manage to turn
> off the cooking and go play when she has seven kids that may all want
> something differnt for dinner? Not that i have seven children myself,
> but i do have two and dh to make dinner for at night, and i can see
> how solutions like pop some frozen dinners in the oven is a workable
> solution for me, for certain times, but what if everyone is crying at
> you that they all want something different, they are hungry now, and
> they don't want to let you alone long enough to make it. I can't
> imagine how an amazing lady with seven kids manages. It's not that i
> just don't want to accept the answers, it's just that i am confused,
> and afraid of how it will actually work out in practice.

Janet

I wanted to add my thoughts on this since you sound a lot like I've felt in
the past. I haven't sent an intro but will do that soon.


> At 21:17 4/11/2006, Lilith wrote:
> >You are still making it out as though you assume i don't spend time
> >with my kids and i just like to throw their mistakes up in their
> >faces. No, i wouldn't hope they got cold. That's ridiculous to assume.
> >Not wanting them to be cold would be my reasoning for not wanting them
> >in the pool in the first place. >



I'm not talking about you here - this is what I went through. Maybe you can
see some of yourself here - maybe not. I saw a lot of me in what you wrote.




I quit working when my oldest was 6 and her sister was 4 to be a full-time
mom. I was home all day with them - 24/7. They slept in our bed. We were
always together. I did things with them - mostly always things I liked to
do. I love books so I read to them. I liked coloring so I colored with
them. I drew pictures with them. (A lot of I's there) But there were lots
of things they liked to do that weren't 'my cup of tea'. They loved Power
Rangers - I didn't. They loved digging up bugs - I didn't. They loved
playing make believe games - I didn't. But I thought that way okay - they
needed to learn to play on their own - they couldn't always depend on me to
provide entertainment. Plus, I had a house to run, and keeping the
household running smoothly and clean was fundamental to us being a happy
family But, still, I was with them all day and I did do things with them.
I was always within earshot. But what I wasn't doing was really, truly
engaging with them. Even when I was reading to them or coloring with them,
my mind was on what 'needed to be done'. Did I take meat out of the
freezer? The laundry needed folded. Dishwasher unloaded. There wasn't
enough hours in the day, and I was tired.



I was there physically but not mentally. I was pre-occupied with everything
I thought was so important, so necessary. And you know what, kids know
that. I think they figured out that the housework, etc. was more important
than they were. Of course, if asked, I would have said my kids were way
more important than housework or whatever, but that wasn't what I was
showing them. I couldn't understand why they were so loud, rambunctious,
unruly, destructive. I was there. I was home. I was doing the right
thing. I made the big sacrifice to quit a good job and stay home. But
being with them physically in the same house, even playing with them if your
mind is on what isn't getting done, isn't the same as being mindfully,
wholly present with them, truly engaging with them.



What is fundamental to a happy, healthy family is making sure their needs
are being met. Yes, they need fed, and clean clothes and sheets and the
floor not so dirty you stick to it when you walk across it. But, you know
what I found out? Once I started putting their emotional needs, their
feelings first - really being there for them when they need me - dinner
still got on the table, the laundry still gets done, the floor isn't any
dirtier than before. It gets done. Now if my twins (5 yrs old) need me
while I'm cooking, I put it on simmer or I put them up on the kitchen
counter so we can talk while I finish up. I cover the meat with foil to
keep it warm and go see what they want to show me - those worms she
collected right now might not be important tomorrow - they're important
today. Most of the work (understanding that if you're deep frying
something, that is immediate) will wait. But children don't. There are
only so many hours in a day, and we never get them back. I'm sorry for
every hour I missed with my older ones. I'm sorry for the things that they
could have taught me, but I was too busy worrying about everything else that
could go wrong. I'm so sorry for the times I snuggled with them but I was
thinking about that damn laundry. We're okay now. Not perfect but getting
better all the time. Even when they're 16 and 14 when they need you, they
need you then - not tomorrow - at that moment. Sometimes that's at midnight
with a cup of tea and some pie crust cookies. I just sleep later the next
morning. (My babies are 5 now so I don't have to get up as early.) It
passes so fast. What a joy it is to be able to be their partner, to help
them get where they want to go, to see the excitement on their face when the
climb the big willow tree and I'm there to keep them safe so they can do it.
Such a privilege.



Anyway, this is where I've been. If it helps, good. If not, please don't
be offended. Just my ideas.



Janet

http://xanga









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], "Janet" <jrenk@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I wanted to add my thoughts on this since you sound a lot like I've
felt in
> the past. I haven't sent an intro but will do that soon.
>
>
> > At 21:17 4/11/2006, Lilith wrote:
> > >You are still making it out as though you assume i don't spend time
> > >with my kids and i just like to throw their mistakes up in their
> > >faces. No, i wouldn't hope they got cold. That's ridiculous to
assume.
> > >Not wanting them to be cold would be my reasoning for not wanting
them
> > >in the pool in the first place. >
>
>
>
> I'm not talking about you here - this is what I went through. Maybe
you can
> see some of yourself here - maybe not. I saw a lot of me in what
you wrote.
>
>
>
>
> I quit working when my oldest was 6 and her sister was 4 to be a
full-time
> mom. I was home all day with them - 24/7. They slept in our bed.
We were
> always together. I did things with them - mostly always things I
liked to
> do. I love books so I read to them. I liked coloring so I colored with
> them. I drew pictures with them. (A lot of I's there) But there
were lots
> of things they liked to do that weren't 'my cup of tea'. They loved
Power
> Rangers - I didn't. They loved digging up bugs - I didn't. They loved
> playing make believe games - I didn't. But I thought that way okay
- they
> needed to learn to play on their own - they couldn't always depend
on me to
> provide entertainment. Plus, I had a house to run, and keeping the
> household running smoothly and clean was fundamental to us being a happy
> family But, still, I was with them all day and I did do things with
them.
> I was always within earshot. But what I wasn't doing was really, truly
> engaging with them. Even when I was reading to them or coloring
with them,
> my mind was on what 'needed to be done'. Did I take meat out of the
> freezer? The laundry needed folded. Dishwasher unloaded. There wasn't
> enough hours in the day, and I was tired.
>
>
>
> I was there physically but not mentally. I was pre-occupied with
everything
> I thought was so important, so necessary. And you know what, kids know
> that. I think they figured out that the housework, etc. was more
important
> than they were. Of course, if asked, I would have said my kids were way
> more important than housework or whatever, but that wasn't what I was
> showing them. I couldn't understand why they were so loud,
rambunctious,
> unruly, destructive. I was there. I was home. I was doing the right
> thing. I made the big sacrifice to quit a good job and stay home. But
> being with them physically in the same house, even playing with them
if your
> mind is on what isn't getting done, isn't the same as being mindfully,
> wholly present with them, truly engaging with them.
>
>
>
> What is fundamental to a happy, healthy family is making sure their
needs
> are being met. Yes, they need fed, and clean clothes and sheets and the
> floor not so dirty you stick to it when you walk across it. But,
you know
> what I found out? Once I started putting their emotional needs, their
> feelings first - really being there for them when they need me - dinner
> still got on the table, the laundry still gets done, the floor isn't any
> dirtier than before. It gets done. Now if my twins (5 yrs old) need me
> while I'm cooking, I put it on simmer or I put them up on the kitchen
> counter so we can talk while I finish up. I cover the meat with foil to
> keep it warm and go see what they want to show me - those worms she
> collected right now might not be important tomorrow - they're important
> today. Most of the work (understanding that if you're deep frying
> something, that is immediate) will wait. But children don't. There are
> only so many hours in a day, and we never get them back. I'm sorry for
> every hour I missed with my older ones. I'm sorry for the things
that they
> could have taught me, but I was too busy worrying about everything
else that
> could go wrong. I'm so sorry for the times I snuggled with them but
I was
> thinking about that damn laundry. We're okay now. Not perfect but
getting
> better all the time. Even when they're 16 and 14 when they need
you, they
> need you then - not tomorrow - at that moment. Sometimes that's at
midnight
> with a cup of tea and some pie crust cookies. I just sleep later
the next
> morning. (My babies are 5 now so I don't have to get up as early.) It
> passes so fast. What a joy it is to be able to be their partner, to
help
> them get where they want to go, to see the excitement on their face
when the
> climb the big willow tree and I'm there to keep them safe so they
can do it.
> Such a privilege.
>
>
>
> Anyway, this is where I've been. If it helps, good. If not, please
don't
> be offended. Just my ideas.
>
>
>
> Janet
>
> http://xanga
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Thank you. Your reply makes lots of sense. It seems that i get so
mentally exhausted and worn down just trying to keep my household
functioning, but i'm trying to take you guys' word for it that if i
choose to be here now with them in their world things will become
better than they are right now. I am really quite a bit the way you
are talking that you used to be. I might be reading books or playing
with flash cards, but i am thinking about the laundry and the dishes.
Sharing of personal experiences like this really helps.

lilith_pouia

--- In [email protected], Melissa <autismhelp@...> wrote:
>
> That would be me...LOL! I appreciate the descriptive, but amazing
> probably isn't the way it really is. Last night we ate dinner at 9pm.
> The kids were fine, they were happy because I had spent the day with
> them, and they had snacks to help them wait. I have a ton of
> solutions for how to cook for a large family on a different type of
> schedule, cleaning, etc, if you're truly interested. I can email you
> privately if you really want suggestions, or should we take up space
> on the board with it? maybe it would make a good set of posts for
> reference (Sandra, you're the list owner, what do you think?)
> And I can honestly say that we have never had an instance where all
> seven kids want something different. On days when it's heading
> towards that, we have buffet night, with bowls and platters of
> leftovers or taco makings or burger and hotdog stuff. My toughest
> thing has been changing our meals to deal with a wheat allergy and a
> corn allergy.
> Melissa
> Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
> (2), and Avari Rose
>
> share our lives at
> http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma
>
>
>
> On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:15 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:
> > For instance, how does a woman manage to turn
> > off the cooking and go play when she has seven kids that may all want
> > something differnt for dinner? Not that i have seven children myself,
> > but i do have two and dh to make dinner for at night, and i can see
> > how solutions like pop some frozen dinners in the oven is a workable
> > solution for me, for certain times, but what if everyone is crying at
> > you that they all want something different, they are hungry now, and
> > they don't want to let you alone long enough to make it. I can't
> > imagine how an amazing lady with seven kids manages. It's not that i
> > just don't want to accept the answers, it's just that i am confused,
> > and afraid of how it will actually work out in practice.
>
I would love any tips you have to share, whether emailed or posted. It
doesn't really matter to me. I think a big part of my problem is that
it's very hard for me to stay mentally organized when my environment
isn't. I end up feeling like my mind is going to pieces when the house
goes. I, as a person, definately need more structure in my life than
my kids do for me to feel that everything is okay. I've always wanted
to be able to get past that though. DH is a very spontaneous person,
and he and i clash on a lot of issues because i'm not. I think, plan,
and organize, sometimes too much, and have realized through my
marriage that it can be quite a limitation.

Joanna Wilkinson

--- In [email protected], "Janet" <jrenk@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I wanted to add my thoughts on this since you sound a lot like I've
felt in
> the past. I haven't sent an intro but will do that soon.
>

Wonderful post Janet.
I really related to everything you said.
It was a great way to introduce yourself!

Joanna

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:53 AM, Melissa wrote:

> f you really want suggestions, or should we take up space
> on the board with it? maybe it would make a good set of posts for
> reference (Sandra, you're the list owner, what do you think?)


Go ahead and do it here if you're willing.

Thanks!

Sandra

Melissa

Hi.
i'm going to go ahead and do a list on my blog, my SIL's and I have
been talking about that anyway (we've all got big families, we have
seven, SIL1 has five, SIL2 has seven, SIL3 has six, and our CIL has
eight) So give me a day, and check out the one below, the 360.yahoo
place.
Melissa
Mom to Josh (11), Breanna (8), Emily (7), Rachel (6), Sam (4), Dan
(2), and Avari Rose

share our lives at
http://360.yahoo.com/multimomma



On Apr 12, 2006, at 11:29 AM, lilith_pouia wrote:
>
> I would love any tips you have to share, whether emailed or posted. It
> doesn't really matter to me. I think a big part of my problem is that
> it's very hard for me to stay mentally organized when my environment
> isn't. I end up feeling like my mind is going to pieces when the house
> goes. I, as a person, definately need more structure in my life than
> my kids do for me to feel that everything is okay.

Rod Thomas

I don't want this to sound sarcastic because its not, but I don't see
how ya'll have so much time to write these long posts and still spend
"most?" of your time with your kids and know what they are up to every
minute, in the next room. Maybe yours are all older. I also am very
frustrated trying to fit everything in and still be a "mindful" parent,
but I am trying. I don't even have enough time to read the posts, let
alone respond to them.
Flyerkat, who thinks she should try an anti-anxiety drug


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of s.waynforth
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 3:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] putting my feet in the water


I started going through this and responding to each point, but I
realized that there was an overall feel to your post, your need, your
exhaustion that I wanted to respond to. You sound so tired. You write of

being afraid of what will happen if you step away from timeouts and
countdowns to spankings. You write THEIRS in shouting capitals and write

i in lower case tiny letters.

You sound so tired and so angry. When I was pregnant with Linnaea, my
second child, I was tired. I was grouchy. I didn't have a lot of
patience. I was working part time when I was pregnant which felt like
the only time when I got a break. And I felt horribly guilty for
enjoying the break. For enjoying being able to go over to the cafeteria
on the Fridays when I went into the VA and get a coke and just sit at my

computer and work without any distractions. It was lovely to be all on
my own. I've never really felt that way at any other time. I've enjoyed
the luxury of walking quickly to the shops or of not having to be
slightly vigilantly aware of where everyone is when going somewhere
else, but I enjoyed the "just me time" when I was pregnant with Linnaea
more than I ever have before or since. I'm not suggesting that you need
"me time" with your pregnancy in the same way that I did, but maybe you
are tired. Maybe, as this parasitic growth inside you gets closer and
closer to birth, and is taking more and more from you to support her
life, you have less to give to your other dependents. Maybe you need to
schedule in your day pick me ups, little energy boosts of a banana
milkshake or an energy bar or 10 minutes of you and a cup of tea and
some cookies. Maybe you need to think about what really needs to get
done in a day. Maybe you could fix a bunch of freezable meals when your
husband is around that you could just pop in the oven or microwave for
the days when he isn't around, so that you don't have to choose between
being with your children and standing at the stove. Maybe you could get
a crock pot and cook dinner all day and not have to spend a particular
time stuck to the stove. Maybe if you have to cook you could set up
something for the boys to do while you are cooking, a video or a game or

time on the computer or something that would keep them entertained so
that you don't have to feel pulled in to many directions. Maybe you
could order pizza on the nights when you just can't cope anymore. Or buy

a few frozen ones to have as back up for when baseball was too
distracting to keep you standing at the stove.

I don't know what you "have" to do. I don't know what things in your
house are piling up from one day to the next. If I don't get done what I

want to on one day it doesn't feel that bad to address it the next. Are
there ways that you can make your required labor less intense. Buy some
boxes on wheels to toss toys into when you need to clean up the living
room. Soak dishes overnight and do the dishes in the morning. Try and
minimize how much you feel you need to do.

It isn't good that they are breaking windows or that they are breaking
things that are yours. Maybe if you give them something they can play
with in the house when they are trying to use something that will break
or will break other things they won't respond so angrily. Simon just got

an indoor frisbee "called a Superang" for his birthday. Pillows are
usually pretty good, oh, Simon discovered a while ago that a tam, little

round knitted hat that lies flat when it isn't worn, makes a great
indoor frisbee. You could talk to them about why it isn't okay to play
with certain things in the house. Simon got this cool electronic circuit

building set for Christmas that has, among other things, a spinning disc

that you build a launcher for. One of the paintings in our house got
chipped by the disc, and so it isn't something that we use in the living

room unless I've draped a blanket over the painting. If something is
important to you that it not be broken you might want to make sure that
it isn't accessible. If they want to go in the pool when you think it is

too cold, get lots of towels and be prepared to warm them up, make some
hot chocolate or give them a nice warm bath or shower when they are
done. Maybe you could take them to a heated indoor pool. A friend
mentioned that a Holiday Inn near us (in Newcastle, so I don't know if
you can do this in the U.S.) lets you use their pool and jacuzzi for 5
pounds a person, or something, maybe you could go there. Or maybe you
could book a night at a local hotel and stay over, watching new
television and swimming in the pool and enjoying the continental
breakfast.

Juice boxes, buy more. Buy more when you go shopping so that they have
lots and lots to drink. If you can't afford to buy more, than make that
something that you talk about. Have them help you figure out what to buy

at the grocery store. If they choose to splurge on the exciting new
foods you just got from the grocery store, that is pretty normal. All
the good fruit goes really quickly around here. And fresh bread is
always more appealing than day old bread. And when it is gone you can
write it on the list for the next grocery run. At some point the thing
that was an exciting splurge will change. Chips last far longer than
strawberries around here. Chips are common, strawberries, good spring
strawberries, are rare, and so get eaten very, very quickly. Artichokes
and edamame and good apple juice and soy milk at the moment are things
that disappear, but we have a box filled with tic tacs (cinnamon which
I've only found in one place here, so we bought the store out) and
starbursts and hohos (cadbury mini rolls really) and gum and coke bottle

candy and wine gums and a bunch of other stuff that has been there for
at least a month and that I'll have to go through soon to throw out what

is stale or melted or gross. Phish food ice cream goes pretty quickly,
but the Fossil Fuel just hasn't moved. But it takes a while to trust
that what you like will be there when you want it. And if you have
equated being good with getting a certain treat, like juice boxes or a
candy bar, than those things taste of more than just a candy bar or a
juice box. And it may take a while for that unintentional raise in value

to dissipate, for food to taste like food instead of like praise or
punishment. Linnaea is right now, this very minute, playing with her
friend for whom chocolate is the most amazing food. She isn't allowed
free access to chocolate. So when she comes over we stock up, and
Linnaea, for whom right now, this very minute, fitting in is very
important, will try and mirror her consumption of chocolate. But she
can't. She just doesn't need it in the same way as her friend needs it.
So, she eats what she can and then gets to share what she couldn't and
didn't want to begin with.

I think, though, the first thing I would look at if I were in your shoes

is how much being pregnant has made you weary. I would think about how
big and how heavy I felt and how feeling that way might be coloring my
vision of the rest of the world. Being pregnant is hard work, and its
constant and it doesn't help you to sleep at night. Try and give
yourself permission to let go of housework and other things right now.
Try and take the time to breathe and relax and not feel everything
mounting around you in some sort of Sarah Sylvia Cynthia Stout who would

not take the garbage out kind of way
(http://www.mste.uiuc.edu/courses/ci407su01/students/north/kristy/Projec
t/K-Poem-Net.html).


Schuyler
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rod Thomas

>>>>You are still making it out as though you assume i don't spend time
with my kids and i just like to throw their mistakes up in their
faces. No, i wouldn't hope they got cold. That's ridiculous to assume.
Not wanting them to be cold would be my reasoning for not wanting them
in the pool in the first place. I just really don't appreciate that
type of response. I have been staying home since my first son was
born, and i have been an attentive parent. A window can get broken
when you are in the room. And my point about being pregnant had
nothing to do with cooking, it was an example of a way that i'm
limited right now in what i can do with my children. My doctor would
tell me not to lift them, that is a limitation. I don't think letting
myself get hit in the stomache with a baseball or bat by accident
would be a good idea either. I really wish you could just keep harsh
assumptions to yourself. I want my children to learn and grow, and
everything about my parenting does not revolve around my ego as you
seem to assume it does. I didn't ask those questions sarcastically
just to test the responses i would get. I asked about things that were
real concerns of mine yesterday when i started trying to do
this.<<<<<<<<<

I agree that Sandra and some others can be harsh, assuming, and
accusing.
I try not to post very much and just read, because I get too personally
offended.
Flyerkat, ducking for cover






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]