lilith_pouia

It seems to me that most of you just want to criticize me, instead of
offering better solutions. Oh love my children more, well gee that's
what i'm trying to do. Listen to them, that's why i ask them
questions. This doesn't seem like much of a support group to me if you
aren't going to be supportive. You have all just made it out like i am
selfish and don't care about my children as much as my own feelings,
when i wouldn't be thinking i was making a mistake, or asking for
advice, or even putting conscious thought into my parenting if i was
just selfish and didn't care about my children. I didn't post here to
find a way to make my kids let me have an easier life. I had many
differnet topics relating to unschooling i wanted to ask questions
about. Punishment just happened to be the first thing i posted about
because of the articles i had been reading. If i didn't love my
children i wouldn't be staying home with them in the first place. I
stay home because i think it's better for my kids, not because i'm
lazy or selfish. If i didn't love my children i wouldn't be asking for
your opinions in the first place. Excuse me for trying to figure out
how to do things the right way. You are all pointing fingers at me the
way you say i do it to my children. I don't appreciate the
accuasations: Did you look at bugs with them? Sounds like you just
want them out of your hair. You don't know enough about me to assume
things like that. I do things with my children. Little boys need to
throw things, so let's go to the park? I don't have a car, so during
the week that's not an option. i do have a backyard, and they can
throw things out there all they want. I don't see much of a point to
this.

Tami

>> It seems to me that most of you just want to criticize me, instead of
offering better solutions. Oh love my children more, well gee that's
what i'm trying to do. <<snip>> You are all pointing fingers at me the
way you say i do it to my children. I don't appreciate the
accuasations: Did you look at bugs with them? Sounds like you just want
them out of your hair. You don't know enough about me to assume things
like that. I do things with my children. Little boys need to throw things,
so let's go to the park? I don't have a car, so during the week that's not
an option. i do have a backyard, and they can throw things out there all
they want. I don't see much of a point to this. <<<




You're getting really defensive...nobody is criticizing you...people ARE
offering suggestions. We're asking you to step outside of yourself, away
from how you've always done things...and try something new.

We only know of you what you've given us, and are making suggestions and
observations based on that information.

If you don't want suggestions, maybe don't ask for them. This list is not
so much a support group. It's for discussion, and what you read here is
SUPPOSED to challenge you to refine your relationships...with your kids,
with yourself maybe.

I think the most important thing that people have offered you is the
hardest for you to accept: we're telling you how your kids see you and your
behavior. Yes, it's kind of scary. But it doesn't have to be. Do some
reading at Sandra's site, and Joyce's site. Keep reading here. Read
"Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn.

Try not to be defensive. Take what you can manage and leave the rest.
Keep saying, "You've given me a lot to think about" Then think about it.
It will make your life much better, and will save your children.

Tami, who thinks maybe you need a Pepsi and some chocolate.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Apr 9, 2006, at 6:30 PM, lilith_pouia wrote:

> This doesn't seem like much of a support group to me if you
> aren't going to be supportive.

We're being supportive of your stated desire to do better.
We're being supportive of your children.

Sandra

Gold Standard

>>It seems to me that most of you just want to criticize me, instead of
>>offering better solutions.<<

Hi Lilith,

Warm hugs to you as you wade through this information :o)

There isn't a person on this list who knows you in any way except the way
you have described your situations and how you handle them.

People have attacked the things that you have said and done in the
situations you described because the things you were saying and doing were
drastically away from where unschooling lives and breathes. All of the
advice, though on the surface may seem derogatory, are actually useful
things to ponder and try. Make a cup of tea, breathe deep, and read through
them again. Try them on for a moment. Try to read them as if they were
written to someone other than you. It is not personal to you. It is directed
at the behaviors. Just take the suggestions for change if you like, and
disregard the rest for now. We all know that you working through things and
trying to get good advice, and no one is thinking you are a monster.

FWIW, my 17 yo has been breaking pencils for years. It wasn't until I broke
a few pencils myself that I saw what the attraction was. It is a very
satisfying feeling to break a pencil! He lately has been disassembling
pens...pen pieces all over the house sometimes. He eventually picks them up,
if I haven't done so already. Usually.

I don't get as much satisfaction out of disassembling the pens though...he
gets something out of it. He doesn't tell me though. It's a secret :-)

He respects people deeply, and treats animals and plants with love and care.

Just loves to break pencils. He bought a replacement box recently for the
first time on his own. That was to replace a bunch he had used. Very
thoughtful I thought.


Jacki, who has learned to happily appreciate the value of breaking things

Andrew 17, Max 16, Hannah 13, Cameron 12

Bling Williams

I think that often when you are tired or trying to change then solutions and ideas can seem like critisism and more problems.
Change is hard.
I remember many years ago when I asked about punishment. I didn't want to spank so i asked about taking away their TV time or computer games and it took me ages to see that punishment like that is wrong too. It might not be spanking but it was all about imposing my adult power (I;m bigger n stronger) on kids in order to have my own way. It wasn't taking into account them at all.
Its much more effort to be creative and sometimes when they are squabbling I know it would be easier to yell etc rather than find out if they are bored or if somethings up.
Things ain't perfect by any means, We still don't like in a Walton's type house but its fairer. The kids tell me when I'm being unreasonable and suggest creative ways to stop me being bored and cranky!

S

lilith_pouia <lilith_pouia@...> wrote:
It seems to me that most of you just want to criticize me, instead of
offering better solutions. Oh love my children more, well gee that's
what i'm trying to do. Listen to them, that's why i ask them
questions. This doesn't seem like much of a support group to me if you
aren't going to be supportive. You have all just made it out like i am
selfish and don't care about my children as much as my own feelings,
when i wouldn't be thinking i was making a mistake, or asking for
advice, or even putting conscious thought into my parenting if i was
just selfish and didn't care about my children. I didn't post here to
find a way to make my kids let me have an easier life. I had many
differnet topics relating to unschooling i wanted to ask questions
about. Punishment just happened to be the first thing i posted about
because of the articles i had been reading. If i didn't love my
children i wouldn't be staying home with them in the first place. I
stay home because i think it's better for my kids, not because i'm
lazy or selfish. If i didn't love my children i wouldn't be asking for
your opinions in the first place. Excuse me for trying to figure out
how to do things the right way. You are all pointing fingers at me the
way you say i do it to my children. I don't appreciate the
accuasations: Did you look at bugs with them? Sounds like you just
want them out of your hair. You don't know enough about me to assume
things like that. I do things with my children. Little boys need to
throw things, so let's go to the park? I don't have a car, so during
the week that's not an option. i do have a backyard, and they can
throw things out there all they want. I don't see much of a point to
this.






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tracey Inman

>>Try not to be defensive. Take what you can manage and leave the rest.
Keep saying, "You've given me a lot to think about" Then think about it.
It will make your life much better, and will save your children.<<

I agree with this statement. Unschooling is such a paradigm shift for most
of us. I still struggling with myself and how I react to my children. I
read a whole lot more than I post. I read carefully and ask myself the hard
questions. There are times I don’t like my own answers. We tend to get
defensive when there is something within us that really does need
addressing.

I realized last week that I have been hard on my 10yo dd. Why? Because I
want her to have better eating habits and not raise her voice while she
complains that everyone is out to get her. I could kick myself at times
because I do loose my temper and say things I have to go back and apologize
for. As far as the eating, she is overweight and never feels good. Always
complains of being tired. She will spend all day on the couch if I don’t
encourage her to go outside and play or go for a walk around the hay field
with me and her sister, etc. After reading A LOT on several lists I am on,
I realized I was making way too big a deal about this eating thing. I went
to Costco and bought a vegetable tray and lots of fresh fruit. I am
beginning to show her how to read labels when she asks me if a particular
selection is good to eat. I realize that her lack of self-esteem is partly
due to my reactions to her about several things. Now for a mom who is
really trying hard to be a better parent than what she had growing up, that
was a hard pill to swallow.

My girls tend to argue quit a bit. I am working on how I respond. The main
thing is not pouring on the guilt to get the results I want.

I don’t want to ramble. I hope you will take some time to really assess
where YOU are. Perhaps journaling would help you take a better outside look
at some of this. When I journal and go back later to read what I wrote, I
get a different perspective on things. Just remember, it really isn’t about
your children.

Life is a journey. Be patient with yourself and others around you.

~Tracey I. - in S.C. (mom to Rachael 13 & Madison 10)


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Faith Weikert

==It seems to me that most of you just want to criticize me, instead of
offering better solutions. Oh love my children more, well gee that's
what i'm trying to do. Listen to them, that's why i ask them
questions. This doesn't seem like much of a support group to me if you
aren't going to be supportive. ===

They are being supportive by offering ways for you to look at what habits you have and examine them more closely. This is not a means to put YOU down personally, just a challenge to see if there could be a different way.

===You have all just made it out like i am selfish and don't care about my children as much as my own feelings,when i wouldn't be thinking i was making a mistake, or asking foradvice, or even putting conscious thought into my parenting if i was just selfish and didn't care about my children. ===

I didn't read any posts that stated you didn't care about your children. I read that you need to learn to show them differently than you have been in the past.

===I didn't post here to find a way to make my kids let me have an easier life.===

By unschooling the way being suggested here, you will find EVERYONE especially your children will have an easier life. Not a bad thing! :-)

==I had many differnet topics relating to unschooling i wanted to ask questions
about. Punishment just happened to be the first thing i posted about
because of the articles i had been reading. If i didn't love my
children i wouldn't be staying home with them in the first place. I
stay home because i think it's better for my kids, not because i'm
lazy or selfish. If i didn't love my children i wouldn't be asking for
your opinions in the first place. Excuse me for trying to figure out
how to do things the right way. ===

Re-read the responses that were sent. ...But only After you have taken a bubble bath or meditated or come in from gardening or any other activity you do to feed YOU. Then be objective and see if maybe the responses are an effort to help you learn how to 'do things the right way'.


===You are all pointing fingers at me the way you say i do it to my children.===

No one is pointing fingers at YOU just your actions. They are hoping to help you feel what your children may be feeling by the way they are being handled. Sometimes the truth is painful to hear. And change is difficult because it requires us to examine ourselves and accept our faults.


=== I don't appreciate the accuasations: Did you look at bugs with them? Sounds like you just want them out of your hair. You don't know enough about me to assume things like that. I do things with my children. Little boys need to throw things, so let's go to the park? I don't have a car, so during the week that's not an option. i do have a backyard, and they can throw things out there all they want.===

These are not accusations. They are questions.

=== I don't see much of a point to this. ===

Try again when you can look at this from a different plane. No problem can be solved from the place it was created. You will have to get to a different place. Good luck with the process and this group will support it!

Faith



Health and laughter,

Faith G. Weikert
Your Sales Director
with The Pampered Chef
856/810-9912
www.pamperedchef.biz/faithweikert

'Learn to love, respect and enjoy other people.'
-- Dale Carnegie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

marji

At 20:30 4/9/2006, you wrote:
>You have all just made it out like i am
>selfish and don't care about my children as much as my own feelings,
>when i wouldn't be thinking i was making a mistake, or asking for
>advice, or even putting conscious thought into my parenting if i was
>just selfish and didn't care about my children.

It's obvious that you do love your children and that you're looking
for help to find another way. That's really good.

>If i didn't love my
>children i wouldn't be staying home with them in the first place. I
>stay home because i think it's better for my kids, not because i'm
>lazy or selfish. If i didn't love my children i wouldn't be asking for
>your opinions in the first place.

It's interesting, you know. Most of us parents (there are some
notable exceptions) are really trying to do the best we can with the
knowledge we have (or most importantly, *don't* have). Now, as I had
mentioned earlier, my folks had a fairly punitive methodology, and my
sibs and I got the belt or the switch or the back of a hand a
lot. There was a lot of yelling going on and I was sometimes so
scared I peed in my pants! I was very meek and never yelled back; I
can remember being afraid just to walk past my dad 'cause I just
*knew* he would hit me (and a lot of times, he did). Made me just
want to disappear. So, when I was really little, I did the best I
could to stay out of the way and not call attention to myself (to the
extent that I could). But, when I was a teenager, I was hellish! I
was still afraid of my folks, so I didn't back-talk them, but I was
deceptive and sneaky and just plain awful. What I didn't realize
then, but do now, was that our relationship was a dance that they
actually choreographed. I responded to their lead, and we all did
the best we could. In spite of that, it wasn't really very good.

But, I was talking with my mom recently, and she saw herself as being
a really crummy mother! (She definitely did have issues! No doubt
about that!) Anyway, her saying that was quite a revelation to
me. I can certainly forgive her and my dad because I know they did
their best, and I know they loved me and my brother and sister, even
if I was sure they hated me back then. I wonder how different things
might have been if she could have acknowledged that when we (she and
my dad and my brother and my sister and I) were young enough to maybe
take a different path. I had/have a lot of recovering to do from my
kidhood days.

>Excuse me for trying to figure out how to do things the right way.

You're excused! :-)

>You are all pointing fingers at me the
>way you say i do it to my children.

But, did you not ask what you could do differently? Why ask if
you're not willing to hear the answers?

>I don't see much of a point to this.

I think it's great that you asked the questions. I hope you'll keep
reading and keep asking. And, don't take stuff so personally! As
you pointed out, nobody here really knows you, so nothing can really
be meant personally. The responses you read weren't insults or
accusations or digs or anything like that. Folks are just trying to
help in the best way they can. It can be really helpful to assume
the best in other folks, not the worst.

I hope this has helped a little.

~Marji

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

[This accidentally went to the owner address instead of the group,
but it seems to have been intended for the list.]

==================================

If authoritarian parents could see into their kids, the thoughts they
listen in on would probably feel really awful. I remember in college
thinking it would be nice to be a tree. Now that's very odd, I know.
It certainly raises a few questions about me huh? ;) I was
struggling hard in those days to keep my head up. Before then, when I
still lived with my parents, I often wished to be invisible and
fantasized what it would be like. In someone else, those ideas could
have been interesting "what if's" and nothing more. In me, they were
a desire to be elsewhere, anywhere but in my life, my body, on earth.
My upbringing had made existence untenable and painful. Intro to
Life 101, otherwise known as the School of Hard Knocks.

I decided very early that I didn't want to have kids because of my
experience growing up. Well, the years rolled by, I got a little
freer and I had my own child almost 3 years ago. I can only say for
sure, even now, even being freer than I've ever been that I have so
much work to do to be truly free. *sigh* The dance (as Marji aptly
names it) first learned as a child stays with a person the longest,
has the greatest impact on the child, and is the easiest to infect
others, our spouses and children, with.

By all means. Let's learn a sweet new dance. My parents didn't
intend to dance cruelly but it feels cruel even today. They thought
they were being loving, doing things to me for my own good. Maybe
they were more loving than their own parents in some ways. My
siblings could more easily mask their feelings and get on with it than
I could. Speaking of dances, one of my sisters the other day, after I
asked what her son wanted to do, said quite confidently "I don't care
what *he* thinks." She signed him up (accepted a hard won invitation)
for a cotillion-- so he can learn to dance gentleman-like. I'm sure
my nephew will absolutely hate it with every fiber of his being, not
the least because it's not really his choice. Sis tells me that he
doesn't even know about it yet. Yikes. He's 13.

Anyway, there's often one of my kind in every family. I think that's
one too many. In my family, there's two of my
not-coping-with-our-upbringing/ decisions we've made/ etc. kind out of
four daughters. I think that's WAY too many. And way too much pain.

Kathe



--- In [email protected], marji <marji@...> wrote:

>>>> It's interesting, you know. Most of us parents (there are some
>>>>
notable exceptions) are really trying to do the best we can with the
knowledge we have (or most importantly, *don't* have). Now, as I had
mentioned earlier, my folks had a fairly punitive methodology, and my
sibs and I got the belt or the switch or the back of a hand a
lot. There was a lot of yelling going on and I was sometimes so
scared I peed in my pants! I was very meek and never yelled back; I
can remember being afraid just to walk past my dad 'cause I just
*knew* he would hit me (and a lot of times, he did). Made me just
want to disappear. So, when I was really little, I did the best I
could to stay out of the way and not call attention to myself (to the
extent that I could). But, when I was a teenager, I was hellish! I
was still afraid of my folks, so I didn't back-talk them, but I was
deceptive and sneaky and just plain awful. What I didn't realize
then, but do now, was that our relationship was a dance that they
actually choreographed. I responded to their lead, and we all did
the best we could. In spite of that, it wasn't really very good.<<<<