Re: [AlwaysLearning] Speaking of Respect...
Carol & Mac
I have to agree with with Sandra on this issue.
I really don't see any benefit to antagonising people when it is so easy
to refrain from doing so. I remember years ago, long before I had kids,
I had a job where I had to interview people for ? not sure what you call
it in the US? government benefits? support payments? for unemployed
people and solo mothers. I was interviewing a woman when her baby
started to cry, whereupon she undid her shirt completely, and sat there
with both breasts exposed, nursing the baby on one side and letting the
milk drip from the other breast onto the forms she was completing, which
I then had to take for processing. I found that extremely offensive at
the time, and still feel that it was an act of deliberate aggression
against 'the enemy' as she appeared from other behaviour to believe we
were. I was 19yo. at the time. I think after that experience it is a
miracle that I went on to nurse 4 sons, tandem nurse, nurse one son
through to age five etc etc and become a LLL leader.
When my second son was little, we were flooded out of our tent in a
flash flood in a camping ground. I was sitting on a chair in the kitchen
very discretely nursing our 4month old baby, when an elderly man came in
and made his cup of tea and toast for breakfast. Just as he was about to
leave, he looked at me and then asked (he had to ask, as there was
nothing to see), if I was nursing the baby. When I said yes, he went
wild, told me to go to my tent. I explained it was flooded, so he told
me to go and nurse in the toilet (? bathroom?). I told him I'd nurse the
baby in the 'ladies' if he went and ate his breakfast in the 'mens', but
otherwise, I was staying put.
I am a pretty stroppy woman when it comes to defending my rights, or
those of my children, but doen't believe it is necessary or polite or
respectful to blatantly rub those rights in other peoples faces
unnecessarily. Many people do find the sight of naked breasts
disturbing. Even people who, in their head, know it is all natural,
still find it uncomfortable. Can't we ask that they be respected where
there is no hardship to us, or our babies, in the process?
Joylyn wrote:
consequences (didn't understand the dangers of traffic), or didn't care
about the consequences (had never had to clean up the mess, had never
gone stinky from rotten milk on unwashed clothes), OR just didn't care
enough about other people to worry that someone else might dislike
having to clean up, or be in the presence of a rotten-milk-stinky person.
If the notice needs to be given at all, presumably it means that there
are people who attend LLL conferences who are either not aware of the
discomfort others may feel at the sight of breasts / nursing babies, or
who don't care. Then LLL needs to decide whether it wants to promote
breastfeeding in the community, or whether it wants to just say, 'we
know this is best, stuff you if you don't like it'. Yeah, I know that's
not what you are saying, but I can also see how it could be interpreted
that way by people who are not LLL minded.
So I guess I am trying to say: 1) I think babies should be nursed when
and where they need it, 2) I agree that some people will be offended no
matter what you do, and well, tough, that sort will just have to suffer
<g>, 3) I think if we want to encourage acceptance of breastfeeding, we
need also to encourage respect for others feelings, especially where
there be no need for conflict.
Carol
New Zealand
I really don't see any benefit to antagonising people when it is so easy
to refrain from doing so. I remember years ago, long before I had kids,
I had a job where I had to interview people for ? not sure what you call
it in the US? government benefits? support payments? for unemployed
people and solo mothers. I was interviewing a woman when her baby
started to cry, whereupon she undid her shirt completely, and sat there
with both breasts exposed, nursing the baby on one side and letting the
milk drip from the other breast onto the forms she was completing, which
I then had to take for processing. I found that extremely offensive at
the time, and still feel that it was an act of deliberate aggression
against 'the enemy' as she appeared from other behaviour to believe we
were. I was 19yo. at the time. I think after that experience it is a
miracle that I went on to nurse 4 sons, tandem nurse, nurse one son
through to age five etc etc and become a LLL leader.
When my second son was little, we were flooded out of our tent in a
flash flood in a camping ground. I was sitting on a chair in the kitchen
very discretely nursing our 4month old baby, when an elderly man came in
and made his cup of tea and toast for breakfast. Just as he was about to
leave, he looked at me and then asked (he had to ask, as there was
nothing to see), if I was nursing the baby. When I said yes, he went
wild, told me to go to my tent. I explained it was flooded, so he told
me to go and nurse in the toilet (? bathroom?). I told him I'd nurse the
baby in the 'ladies' if he went and ate his breakfast in the 'mens', but
otherwise, I was staying put.
I am a pretty stroppy woman when it comes to defending my rights, or
those of my children, but doen't believe it is necessary or polite or
respectful to blatantly rub those rights in other peoples faces
unnecessarily. Many people do find the sight of naked breasts
disturbing. Even people who, in their head, know it is all natural,
still find it uncomfortable. Can't we ask that they be respected where
there is no hardship to us, or our babies, in the process?
Joylyn wrote:
> But really, I was thinking this statement wasShe wouldn't be careful if she had no notion of the possible
> like me telling Lexie to "be careful" when
> she's pooring the milk or crossing the
> street. Of course she's careful, why woudl
> she not be. it's more like it's belittling.
consequences (didn't understand the dangers of traffic), or didn't care
about the consequences (had never had to clean up the mess, had never
gone stinky from rotten milk on unwashed clothes), OR just didn't care
enough about other people to worry that someone else might dislike
having to clean up, or be in the presence of a rotten-milk-stinky person.
If the notice needs to be given at all, presumably it means that there
are people who attend LLL conferences who are either not aware of the
discomfort others may feel at the sight of breasts / nursing babies, or
who don't care. Then LLL needs to decide whether it wants to promote
breastfeeding in the community, or whether it wants to just say, 'we
know this is best, stuff you if you don't like it'. Yeah, I know that's
not what you are saying, but I can also see how it could be interpreted
that way by people who are not LLL minded.
So I guess I am trying to say: 1) I think babies should be nursed when
and where they need it, 2) I agree that some people will be offended no
matter what you do, and well, tough, that sort will just have to suffer
<g>, 3) I think if we want to encourage acceptance of breastfeeding, we
need also to encourage respect for others feelings, especially where
there be no need for conflict.
Carol
New Zealand
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/11/02 6:58:07 PM, mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<< I had a job where I had to interview people for ? not sure what you call
it in the US? government benefits? support payments? for unemployed
people and solo mothers. >>
Welfare.
(what they call it in the US)
<<I was interviewing a woman when her baby
started to cry, whereupon she undid her shirt completely, and sat there
with both breasts exposed, >>
I had a "friend" (former girlfriend of my current husband, in addition to
other connections), who had babies along/after I did. I nursed in the SCA,
never exposed, making costumes that would accommodate, etc.
She flopped wholly out once, massive breast, out of a Renaissance costume,
sitting under electric light, near where people needed to bring their dishes
and such after a feast--not in a dark corner, of which there were dozens.
Not with a blanket or shawl or veil, of which there were hundreds in the
room. I came and talked to her about being more discrete.
Her dumb-ass answer was this:
"Well you nurse YOUR babies in public."
Yes. But I never exposed myself that way, and I kept the babies covered.
She looked at me without recognition of the English language, or of concept.
I said that what she did reflected on all nursing mothers, and it would be
bad if public sentiment turned against the idea because she couldn't be more
careful.
Two other stories of the same person, to illustrate a point:
1. She got really angry at the rest of us in the SCA (the order of the
Laurel, specifically, for those here who are SCA members) because we had
never told her about Dover books.
2. She did a piece of embroidery and entered it in a competition for which I
was a judge. The work she did was nice, but it wasn't stable (meaning--shame
to waste that much energy on something that was going to come apart when it
was washed), AND... mysteriously, it was only the front of a neckpiece/yoke.
I asked why she hadn't done the back too. After a three-second gaze that
seemed "processing... ... processing..." she said "it didn't show it in the
photo."
SO.
My point is even some of the people who will go to a LLL conference aren't
brilliant, and only do what people TELL them to do, and only find what people
TELL them to find.
Some of them are followers, and are there because they want to do what LLL
folk do, and be like LLL folk are being, and might really, truly, need to be
reminded not to flash the neighbors.
Sandra
<< I had a job where I had to interview people for ? not sure what you call
it in the US? government benefits? support payments? for unemployed
people and solo mothers. >>
Welfare.
(what they call it in the US)
<<I was interviewing a woman when her baby
started to cry, whereupon she undid her shirt completely, and sat there
with both breasts exposed, >>
I had a "friend" (former girlfriend of my current husband, in addition to
other connections), who had babies along/after I did. I nursed in the SCA,
never exposed, making costumes that would accommodate, etc.
She flopped wholly out once, massive breast, out of a Renaissance costume,
sitting under electric light, near where people needed to bring their dishes
and such after a feast--not in a dark corner, of which there were dozens.
Not with a blanket or shawl or veil, of which there were hundreds in the
room. I came and talked to her about being more discrete.
Her dumb-ass answer was this:
"Well you nurse YOUR babies in public."
Yes. But I never exposed myself that way, and I kept the babies covered.
She looked at me without recognition of the English language, or of concept.
I said that what she did reflected on all nursing mothers, and it would be
bad if public sentiment turned against the idea because she couldn't be more
careful.
Two other stories of the same person, to illustrate a point:
1. She got really angry at the rest of us in the SCA (the order of the
Laurel, specifically, for those here who are SCA members) because we had
never told her about Dover books.
2. She did a piece of embroidery and entered it in a competition for which I
was a judge. The work she did was nice, but it wasn't stable (meaning--shame
to waste that much energy on something that was going to come apart when it
was washed), AND... mysteriously, it was only the front of a neckpiece/yoke.
I asked why she hadn't done the back too. After a three-second gaze that
seemed "processing... ... processing..." she said "it didn't show it in the
photo."
SO.
My point is even some of the people who will go to a LLL conference aren't
brilliant, and only do what people TELL them to do, and only find what people
TELL them to find.
Some of them are followers, and are there because they want to do what LLL
folk do, and be like LLL folk are being, and might really, truly, need to be
reminded not to flash the neighbors.
Sandra
Diane
I really think the issue may be that many moms feel so surrounded by LLL and
acceptance that they really don't realize there are other, unrelated, people
in the hotel who may not be used to the openness women feel at their local
meetings.
:-) Diane
acceptance that they really don't realize there are other, unrelated, people
in the hotel who may not be used to the openness women feel at their local
meetings.
:-) Diane
Elizabeth Hill
>OK. Vivid word pictures of insensitivity in action. I get it.
>
> SO.
> My point is even some of the people who will go to a LLL conference
> aren't
> brilliant, and only do what people TELL them to do, and only find what
> people
> TELL them to find.
>
> Some of them are followers, and are there because they want to do what
> LLL
> folk do, and be like LLL folk are being, and might really, truly, need
> to be
> reminded not to flash the neighbors.
I think where trouble might be stirred is that a "be careful" message
that is strong enough to reach the willfully insensitive (like the woman
you described) is very likely to crush the tender feelings of the more
sensitive nursing moms in the group.
It's gonna take considerable word-smithing talent.
Betsy
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