adult unschoolers
Maisha Khalfani
Hello (and sorry for the cross posts) - I'm still lurking but I'm talking with my husband about the idea of radical unschooling and he has some issues with it. He wants to know what some of your adult children do for a living. He's a big skeptic about the whole radical unschooling thing and wants to know if your children have gone on to make a living in the "real world". Thanks.
Maisha
"Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit, and dance with the Earth in all her glorious colors." ~ Henry David Thoreau (1817 - 1862)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maisha
"Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink, taste the fruit, and dance with the Earth in all her glorious colors." ~ Henry David Thoreau (1817 - 1862)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cally Brown
My almost 25yo (who didn't learn to read until he was 9 1/2) has been
working since he was 17. He started out beekeeping for a couple of
years, then worked on a dairy farm, and has recently been taken on as an
adult apprentice welder.
My 22yo (learnt to read at 8 1/2) is working in the timber yard of a
large home improvement firm while he saves towards getting his teeth
fixed following a car accident (we have helped as much as we can) and
then intends to do a degree in music performance. (jazz sax)
My 18yo (learnt to read at 12 1/2) works for Hell's Pizzas part time,
and for a copy firm part time - hoping the latter will become full time,
using his artistic and computer skills. He also plans to sell his art at
the local creative market when he and I (I make handbound journals) have
enough stock to commit to a stand - probably in spring (September - we
live in New Zealand).
Cally
working since he was 17. He started out beekeeping for a couple of
years, then worked on a dairy farm, and has recently been taken on as an
adult apprentice welder.
My 22yo (learnt to read at 8 1/2) is working in the timber yard of a
large home improvement firm while he saves towards getting his teeth
fixed following a car accident (we have helped as much as we can) and
then intends to do a degree in music performance. (jazz sax)
My 18yo (learnt to read at 12 1/2) works for Hell's Pizzas part time,
and for a copy firm part time - hoping the latter will become full time,
using his artistic and computer skills. He also plans to sell his art at
the local creative market when he and I (I make handbound journals) have
enough stock to commit to a stand - probably in spring (September - we
live in New Zealand).
Cally
Susan McGlohn
At 12:59 AM 3/25/2006, you wrote:
http://www.peterkowalke.com/
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=15538&nav=topic-directory&
http://www.grownwithoutschooling.com/
There are a few parents here with children who are adults, but most of us
are still in the midst of it all.
Is he willing to do the research to find the answers to his questions?
Susan (in VA)
wife to VegMan (aka Ted) since 12/86
momma to Sarah (10/89), Andrew (6/91), and Aaron (3/98)
"It's a small world....but a BIG life!" ~ Aaron, age 6
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Hello (and sorry for the cross posts) - I'm still lurking but I'm talkingHere are some links to info about grown unschoolers:
>with my husband about the idea of radical unschooling and he has some
>issues with it. He wants to know what some of your adult children do for
>a living. He's a big skeptic about the whole radical unschooling thing
>and wants to know if your children have gone on to make a living in the
>"real world". Thanks.
http://www.peterkowalke.com/
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=15538&nav=topic-directory&
http://www.grownwithoutschooling.com/
There are a few parents here with children who are adults, but most of us
are still in the midst of it all.
Is he willing to do the research to find the answers to his questions?
Susan (in VA)
wife to VegMan (aka Ted) since 12/86
momma to Sarah (10/89), Andrew (6/91), and Aaron (3/98)
"It's a small world....but a BIG life!" ~ Aaron, age 6
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 25, 2006, at 8:36 AM, Susan McGlohn wrote:
Asking someone's assistant or secretary or wife to ask people who
know is a form of research.
Sometimes it's an irritating form, when neither the wife/assistant or
the information providers are being paid AND the question is asked in
a hostile way, hoping for an answer to use against us all.
So that having been said, I have three teens who haven't been to school.
Didn't I just post this response here last week? Lately I'm
confusing AlwaysLearning and UnschoolingDiscussion.
Both are working their second jobs. Both were offered their first
jobs by adults who knew them and were impressed by them. At the
moment Kirby (19) is working at a pizza place where friends wanted
him to come and work. He visited the home of one of "the pie
guys" (who make the pizzas themselves) and there was a pharmacy
school diploma on the wall. Marty (17) is working full time at a
grocery store. Because he's not 18, he is a sacker/bagboy/"courtesy
clerk and making $6 an hour. That's not great, but there's already
been an inquiry from the manager of the deli about when he will turn
18 and be eligible for MANY other jobs there. I doubt the deli
manager will be the only one to ask. He doesn't turn 18 until mid
January.
Kirby is interested in a culinary arts course given by the community
college, and that's his current plan.
Marty has for several years intended to be a policeman. Keith has
wanted me to discourage that. Just Thursday my sister, who worked as
a grocery store clerk for years, said I should tell him grocery
management pays way better than policework and is safer. Starting
there at 16 as he did, he could be pretty far along by the time
others his age get out of college with their degrees in anthropology,
communications, philosophy, politics, history or other things that
require a master's degree or PhD for even the HOPE of a paying job in
the field. Many BA and BS degrees "qualify" one for nothing more
than continuing in school.
Maybe ask your doubting husband to really inventory people he's know
in his life, or that he graduated with, or has worked with. He
probably will stop counting before very long about people with
something like a master's in education who never taught or quit
after fewer years in the classroom than they were in school, or
people who dropped out of college after three years and had to pay
their student loans off (if indeed they bothered) working jobs like
my boys have now.
The question makes me angry. Those questions too often come from a
fantasy vision of "high school graduates" as all valedictorians and
captains of the football team. That's BULL. Schools are by their
very nature required to turn out MORE average-to-low students than "A
and B" students. The "honor roll" is worth NOTHING if 90% or more
of the student body is NOT on it. The more who are off, the better
"honor roll" is. The more who do NOT get an A, the better the A is.
School produces losers and failures who would never have been
failures or losers had they not gone to school to be "graded."
School grades first and foremost, and learning is a byproduct of all
that sorting and rewarding and punishing. And speaking for at least
one gifted student, much of what the "top kids" learn they learned
outside of school and not in. Yet school, and school defenders, look
at people like me and say "SEE? School." They should look at
prison, and welfare, and gangs, and say "See? School."
I rarely go on a school rant because I enjoyed school and I don't
think schools are evil, just out of hand and far beyond their
original intent with no hope of return. But if someone who's never
met a grown unschooler wants to suggest that any average "school kid"
is ahead of or better than my sons, he can face my ire and/or kiss my
butt. Or he can keep his kids in school and have that chance (what
do you think it is, 40%? 60%?) that they'll fail and be miserable,
if they don't kill themselves first.
Schoolkids do kill themselves, and sometimes others.
Sometimes fundamentalist school-at-home mothers have been known to
kill their children. Three times; maybe that's all.
I know of no unschooling-related suicides or murders. Yes, the
population is smaller, but it's also immeasurably happier, unless we
want to measure in the absolute numbers of suicides and murders
directly related.
http://sandradodd.com/teens
There are some links there.
Sandra
>Asking people who know is a form of research. <g>
> -=-There are a few parents here with children who are adults, but
> most of us
> are still in the midst of it all.
>
> -=-Is he willing to do the research to find the answers to his
> questions?-=-
Asking someone's assistant or secretary or wife to ask people who
know is a form of research.
Sometimes it's an irritating form, when neither the wife/assistant or
the information providers are being paid AND the question is asked in
a hostile way, hoping for an answer to use against us all.
So that having been said, I have three teens who haven't been to school.
Didn't I just post this response here last week? Lately I'm
confusing AlwaysLearning and UnschoolingDiscussion.
Both are working their second jobs. Both were offered their first
jobs by adults who knew them and were impressed by them. At the
moment Kirby (19) is working at a pizza place where friends wanted
him to come and work. He visited the home of one of "the pie
guys" (who make the pizzas themselves) and there was a pharmacy
school diploma on the wall. Marty (17) is working full time at a
grocery store. Because he's not 18, he is a sacker/bagboy/"courtesy
clerk and making $6 an hour. That's not great, but there's already
been an inquiry from the manager of the deli about when he will turn
18 and be eligible for MANY other jobs there. I doubt the deli
manager will be the only one to ask. He doesn't turn 18 until mid
January.
Kirby is interested in a culinary arts course given by the community
college, and that's his current plan.
Marty has for several years intended to be a policeman. Keith has
wanted me to discourage that. Just Thursday my sister, who worked as
a grocery store clerk for years, said I should tell him grocery
management pays way better than policework and is safer. Starting
there at 16 as he did, he could be pretty far along by the time
others his age get out of college with their degrees in anthropology,
communications, philosophy, politics, history or other things that
require a master's degree or PhD for even the HOPE of a paying job in
the field. Many BA and BS degrees "qualify" one for nothing more
than continuing in school.
Maybe ask your doubting husband to really inventory people he's know
in his life, or that he graduated with, or has worked with. He
probably will stop counting before very long about people with
something like a master's in education who never taught or quit
after fewer years in the classroom than they were in school, or
people who dropped out of college after three years and had to pay
their student loans off (if indeed they bothered) working jobs like
my boys have now.
The question makes me angry. Those questions too often come from a
fantasy vision of "high school graduates" as all valedictorians and
captains of the football team. That's BULL. Schools are by their
very nature required to turn out MORE average-to-low students than "A
and B" students. The "honor roll" is worth NOTHING if 90% or more
of the student body is NOT on it. The more who are off, the better
"honor roll" is. The more who do NOT get an A, the better the A is.
School produces losers and failures who would never have been
failures or losers had they not gone to school to be "graded."
School grades first and foremost, and learning is a byproduct of all
that sorting and rewarding and punishing. And speaking for at least
one gifted student, much of what the "top kids" learn they learned
outside of school and not in. Yet school, and school defenders, look
at people like me and say "SEE? School." They should look at
prison, and welfare, and gangs, and say "See? School."
I rarely go on a school rant because I enjoyed school and I don't
think schools are evil, just out of hand and far beyond their
original intent with no hope of return. But if someone who's never
met a grown unschooler wants to suggest that any average "school kid"
is ahead of or better than my sons, he can face my ire and/or kiss my
butt. Or he can keep his kids in school and have that chance (what
do you think it is, 40%? 60%?) that they'll fail and be miserable,
if they don't kill themselves first.
Schoolkids do kill themselves, and sometimes others.
Sometimes fundamentalist school-at-home mothers have been known to
kill their children. Three times; maybe that's all.
I know of no unschooling-related suicides or murders. Yes, the
population is smaller, but it's also immeasurably happier, unless we
want to measure in the absolute numbers of suicides and murders
directly related.
http://sandradodd.com/teens
There are some links there.
Sandra
thfamily3
>>>> He's a big skeptic about the whole radical unschooling thing andwants to know if your children have gone on to make a living in
the "real world". <<<<
I have found that when a question like this arises it due more to the
fact that the husband or spouse asking has not had the opportunity to
learn about unschooling. Usually they are at work all day, and some
time between kids and dinner moms are trying to have a conversation
about unschooling and they are trying to relate all the information
that they have learned ,researched, understand about unschooling and
now want to implement. So the struggle begins....Because your now
trying to not only convince your partner this is a viable option but
informing them of the concepts and ideas too. So you have already
ceased to have a equal discussion and now are on to convincing them
you know what your doing.
The problem with this is, most times the husband do say yea do what
ever. But then they come home every day and they are looking for
schoolish type learning to have taken place if not physicality but at
least be able to observe the schoolish results in their children and
the kids demonstrating this to dad so he can be convinced all is
going well. When dads don't see the learning in the way they are
accustom to observing, friction and conflict arise and your back to
explaining yet again the concept idea and what it looks like and
convincing them yes the children really are learning. This is very
bad on the marriage and relationship for the whole family. You are
always being held up to scrutiny by the one person who is your
partner and suppose to be supporting you if not fully involved in the
unschooling process.
You can answers the one question what do jobs look like for
unschoolers and as far as I can tell they look like any one else's
jobs. Just the kids usually want to do it and like it and choose it.
One might want to think about why he asked such a question. Does he
have ideas or visions that unschooler cannot accomplish what ever
goals they desire with love and support. Does he think that the kids
won't go on to getting graduate degrees in banking business computer
high tech. Which unschoolers do accomplish.
The question I think you should be asking him, is he ok with whatever
interests the kids have and allowing them to follow their own path.
Are you and your husband ok with letting your children follow their
desires dreams and goals and supporting them in what ever direction
they choose.
I don't think I could be unschooling if my husband didn't understand
and respect the goals and interests of our son. It also helped a lot
that he took the time to finally read up and learn about unschooling.
I would also have your husband join some unschooling groups let him
read the threads, send him articles and allow him the opportunity to
educate himself on the radical unschooling subject.
Hey maybe even strew a few article and such around the house so he
can be on the same page as you.
Some books I strewed around my house for my husband ( Who
incidentally works for a private preparatory school and sees these
kids achievements on a daily basis like second languages in
kindergarten writing essays in 1st grade) Oh yea we've been there
with the comparisons and what kind of job and career will a
unschooler really have.
Any way here are some books I strewed around for him to read. I'm
sure any of Sandra Dodd's articles would be of great to have him
read. Good luck Maisha :) T
"education as the independent thought" Bertrand Russell
"When learning become you enemy" Clive Erricker
"Theory and practice of Regressive education" Roland Meighan
"Compulsory Schooling Disease" Chris Shute
"natural learning and the natural curriculum" anybody, any age, and
time, any place, any pace Roland Meighan
--- In [email protected], "Maisha Khalfani"
<earthspirit393@...> wrote:
>talking with my husband about the idea of radical unschooling and he
> Hello (and sorry for the cross posts) - I'm still lurking but I'm
has some issues with it. He wants to know what some of your adult
children do for a living. He's a big skeptic about the whole radical
unschooling thing and wants to know if your children have gone on to
make a living in the "real world". Thanks.
>taste the fruit, and dance with the Earth in all her glorious
> Maisha
> "Live each season as it passes; breathe the air, drink the drink,
colors." ~ Henry David Thoreau (1817 - 1862)
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 25, 2006, at 9:25 AM, thfamily3 wrote:
He probably won't want to read anything of mine if Maisha prints out
the "kiss my butt" one. <g> The offer still stands, but thfamily3's
approach was WAY (way) more tactful. <g>
One book dads seem to like is "Dumbing us Down." It's an anti-school
book, not a pro-unschooling book. But sometimes someone needs to be
shaken loose from their clinging to an idealized idea of school
before they can consider that an alternative is even worth considering.
Another book my a male author that hasn't been recommended lately but
that men just used to love (meaning men who didn't want to read what
some mom wrote would pick this one up and get something out of it,
while women were less happy with its tone) is this, and they have
used copies for VERY little money at Amazon (like $1 plus shipping):
Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156300001/sr=8-5/qid=1143304816/
ref=pd_bbs_5/103-8529203-3817429?%5Fencoding=UTF8
You'll need to cut and paste that whole thing above to get the link,
or maybe this much of it will work:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156300001/
There are reviews and sample pages there.
You might not even need to buy the book, if he'll just read that stuff.
Like this, for instance. People who write this way like his book.
AND it's about him and his sons (manliness points):
"An articulate, thoughtful, accessible, and refreshingly balanced
examination of "why homeschooling makes sense." I've read many books
about homeschooling (a number of which were cited in Mr. Guterson's
book), but none have been as helpful as this one in terms of
exploring the advantages and disadvantages of teaching your own, and
what it means in a larger sense, not just to our children but to
ourselves and the society and culture in which we live. Even-handed,
the author doesn't shy away from pointing out unhelpful attitudes on
some members of both sides, -- school administrations and
homeschoolers -- but he also does his best to place these
observations in context that the reader might have a better
understanding of its underpinnings. Those seeking a better way to
express their reasons for homeschooling will find many arguments in
its defense. "
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Any way here are some books I strewed around for him to read. I'mAh, T, that was so sweet!
> sure any of Sandra Dodd's articles would be of great to have him
> read. Good luck Maisha :) T
He probably won't want to read anything of mine if Maisha prints out
the "kiss my butt" one. <g> The offer still stands, but thfamily3's
approach was WAY (way) more tactful. <g>
One book dads seem to like is "Dumbing us Down." It's an anti-school
book, not a pro-unschooling book. But sometimes someone needs to be
shaken loose from their clinging to an idealized idea of school
before they can consider that an alternative is even worth considering.
Another book my a male author that hasn't been recommended lately but
that men just used to love (meaning men who didn't want to read what
some mom wrote would pick this one up and get something out of it,
while women were less happy with its tone) is this, and they have
used copies for VERY little money at Amazon (like $1 plus shipping):
Family Matters: Why Homeschooling Makes Sense
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156300001/sr=8-5/qid=1143304816/
ref=pd_bbs_5/103-8529203-3817429?%5Fencoding=UTF8
You'll need to cut and paste that whole thing above to get the link,
or maybe this much of it will work:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0156300001/
There are reviews and sample pages there.
You might not even need to buy the book, if he'll just read that stuff.
Like this, for instance. People who write this way like his book.
AND it's about him and his sons (manliness points):
"An articulate, thoughtful, accessible, and refreshingly balanced
examination of "why homeschooling makes sense." I've read many books
about homeschooling (a number of which were cited in Mr. Guterson's
book), but none have been as helpful as this one in terms of
exploring the advantages and disadvantages of teaching your own, and
what it means in a larger sense, not just to our children but to
ourselves and the society and culture in which we live. Even-handed,
the author doesn't shy away from pointing out unhelpful attitudes on
some members of both sides, -- school administrations and
homeschoolers -- but he also does his best to place these
observations in context that the reader might have a better
understanding of its underpinnings. Those seeking a better way to
express their reasons for homeschooling will find many arguments in
its defense. "
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
C Johnson
Here are some more links about adult unschoolers.
Love,
Chrissie
Susan McGlohn <wifeto.vegman@...> wrote:
At 12:59 AM 3/25/2006, you wrote:
http://www.peterkowalke.com/
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=15538&nav=topic-directory&
http://www.grownwithoutschooling.com/
There are a few parents here with children who are adults, but most of us
are still in the midst of it all.
Is he willing to do the research to find the answers to his questions?
Susan (in VA)
wife to VegMan (aka Ted) since 12/86
momma to Sarah (10/89), Andrew (6/91), and Aaron (3/98)
"It's a small world....but a BIG life!" ~ Aaron, age 6
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SPONSORED LINKS
Unschooling Attachment parenting John holt Parenting magazine Single parenting
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "AlwaysLearning" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Love,
Chrissie
Susan McGlohn <wifeto.vegman@...> wrote:
At 12:59 AM 3/25/2006, you wrote:
>Hello (and sorry for the cross posts) - I'm still lurking but I'm talkingHere are some links to info about grown unschoolers:
>with my husband about the idea of radical unschooling and he has some
>issues with it. He wants to know what some of your adult children do for
>a living. He's a big skeptic about the whole radical unschooling thing
>and wants to know if your children have gone on to make a living in the
>"real world". Thanks.
http://www.peterkowalke.com/
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=program-info&program_id=15538&nav=topic-directory&
http://www.grownwithoutschooling.com/
There are a few parents here with children who are adults, but most of us
are still in the midst of it all.
Is he willing to do the research to find the answers to his questions?
Susan (in VA)
wife to VegMan (aka Ted) since 12/86
momma to Sarah (10/89), Andrew (6/91), and Aaron (3/98)
"It's a small world....but a BIG life!" ~ Aaron, age 6
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SPONSORED LINKS
Unschooling Attachment parenting John holt Parenting magazine Single parenting
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "AlwaysLearning" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time you have been given." Gandalf
---------------------------------
Blab-away for as little as 1¢/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Hi,
We started having the kids stay home to learn in 1981. Now with the
youngest of the five headed toward 18 (hard to believe!) they are out in the world
and having a fine time. This is part of what I put at the end of a monthly
column I have been writing:
My oldest two sons attended school through the fourth grade and
kindergarten. After that none of the kids have gone to school until college. My oldest
son now works as real estate agent, he holds an accounting degree, the next
one graduated with a degree in theatre – he’s now attending grad school at
UCLA, the next son works as a journeyman in the heating/AC field, my daughter
attends community college majoring in dance and music, and the youngest son
started taking a couple of community college courses.
In addition - my daughter is now working two jobs. She and three of her
friends have plans to start a dance studio in the future. My youngest son is in
the process of getting a job bussing at a local restaurant.
Mostly what I would say about the kids is that they are responsible,
reliable and make choices in their lives that benefit themselves and others around
them. They learned to be self-directed and have been very clear in what path
they want to take as they enter their adult years.
The responses through the years from their professors, their bosses, and
their coaches have been glowing.
Yesterday I had lunch with four women from my original San Diego
un/homeschooling group. There is no doubt about it, the kids have grown up to be happy,
caring people.
Connie
_www.homeschoolingreflections.com_ (http://www.homeschoolingreflections.com)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We started having the kids stay home to learn in 1981. Now with the
youngest of the five headed toward 18 (hard to believe!) they are out in the world
and having a fine time. This is part of what I put at the end of a monthly
column I have been writing:
My oldest two sons attended school through the fourth grade and
kindergarten. After that none of the kids have gone to school until college. My oldest
son now works as real estate agent, he holds an accounting degree, the next
one graduated with a degree in theatre – he’s now attending grad school at
UCLA, the next son works as a journeyman in the heating/AC field, my daughter
attends community college majoring in dance and music, and the youngest son
started taking a couple of community college courses.
In addition - my daughter is now working two jobs. She and three of her
friends have plans to start a dance studio in the future. My youngest son is in
the process of getting a job bussing at a local restaurant.
Mostly what I would say about the kids is that they are responsible,
reliable and make choices in their lives that benefit themselves and others around
them. They learned to be self-directed and have been very clear in what path
they want to take as they enter their adult years.
The responses through the years from their professors, their bosses, and
their coaches have been glowing.
Yesterday I had lunch with four women from my original San Diego
un/homeschooling group. There is no doubt about it, the kids have grown up to be happy,
caring people.
Connie
_www.homeschoolingreflections.com_ (http://www.homeschoolingreflections.com)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]