Joylyn

OK, I have a question for you. I want to
rewrite something that is in the
Program for the Southern California/Nevada
LLL Conference. This is what it says now...

DISCREET BREASTFEEDING

Please keep in mind that we share the Hilton
Hotel with others who may not be
as familiar with breastfeeding children as we
are. Pay extra attention to
modesty as a gesture of respect for other’s
feelings.

At the meeting yesterday, I noted that when I
read the above at my first
conference I was offended at people telling
me how to breastfeed. We
discussed and the decision was made that we
shoudl change the heading to
something diferent, like "respectful behavior
or something like that. I don't
like that either.

Anyway, the idea would be to say something
like...

Please remember that as a Conference Attendee
you represent LLL to others in
the hotel who may have limited or no
knowledge of LLL and breastfeeding. Let
us all show our best sides, da da da da,
nurse discreetly, da da da da, keep
our kids from running and screaming down the
hotel isles da da da da, etc.

Any ideas? Please? I don't like this at
all. I'd rather not put anything in, but it
is not I who makes these decisions. So tell
me what you think and I will have some
ammunition to take with me to tomorrow's
meeting.

Thanks!

Joylyn

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/02 4:39:22 PM, joylyn@... writes:

<< DISCREET BREASTFEEDING


Please keep in mind that we share the Hilton

Hotel with others who may not be

as familiar with breastfeeding children as we

are. Pay extra attention to

modesty as a gesture of respect for other’s

feelings. >>

I think that says it pretty succinctly.

The second sentence could be tightened up. I don't think it should be
considered a "gesture" of respect, but should be ACTUAL respect for others'
feelings.


Maybe "Please nurse modestly out of respect for others in the hotel."

Sandra

Joylyn

But Sandra, don't you find this comment, this
directive, disrespectful to mothers?

I mean, would we say "as a gesture of respect
towards others, please cover up all holes in
your body (except for one hole in each ear)
and all tatoos."

Joylyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/11/02 4:39:22 PM,
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> << DISCREET BREASTFEEDING
>
>
> Please keep in mind that we share the
> Hilton
>
> Hotel with others who may not be
>
> as familiar with breastfeeding children as
> we
>
> are. Pay extra attention to
>
> modesty as a gesture of respect for
> other’s
>
> feelings. >>
>
> I think that says it pretty succinctly.
>
> The second sentence could be tightened up.
> I don't think it should be
> considered a "gesture" of respect, but
> should be ACTUAL respect for others'
> feelings.
>
>
> Maybe "Please nurse modestly out of respect
> for others in the hotel."
>
> Sandra
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/02 5:05:27 PM, joylyn@... writes:

<< But Sandra, don't you find this comment, this

directive, disrespectful to mothers? >>

No.

I nursed three babies in public, for many years, and never flashed tit at
anyone. No reason to. I had nursing clothes and blankets and more often than
not people didn't even know the baby was nursing, just thought it was
sleeping or snuggling.

Since it's easy to be modest, why can't people do it? Since there are more
people who will be disturbed than won't if women are flopping boobs our in a
hotel lobby, those people have a right to their peace.

There will be rooms in/of the conference which are not public, where there
are lectures and workshops and such, where everyone there is LLL, and then it
won't matter.

It will do nothing to promote breastfeeding in public for people to be
blatantly blatant about it.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/02 5:05:27 PM, joylyn@... writes:

<< I mean, would we say "as a gesture of respect

towards others, please cover up all holes in

your body (except for one hole in each ear)

and all tatoos." >>

[email protected]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:13:56 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
> Since it's easy to be modest, why can't people do it? Since there are
more
> people who will be disturbed than won't if women are flopping boobs
our in a
> hotel lobby, those people have a right to their peace.

Well, it's not always easy, first off. You said you nursed babies - maybe
it's when the kids get beyond baby that it's harder, I don't know. Cacie
hated having anything over her head from the first, so that wasn't gonna
happen. I think for women with very large or very small breasts, it can
be harder.
>
> It will do nothing to promote breastfeeding in public for people to
> be blatantly blatant about it.

I don't think anyone wants women stripping to the waist to nurse in
public. OTOH, sometimes the toddler is wiggly, and some midruff shows.
Sometimes the preschooler pops off to say hi to a friend, and for a few
second your nipple is out in plain view. I don't think it's being
"blatant" so much as not being "discreet". I'm discreet when I pull my
underwear up in public, or tell someone she has broccoli between her
teeth. Those things are kind of embarrassing. Nursing my kid is not.

I agree with Joylyn, too, that it's kind of insulting to be told
something like this - sort of feeds right into the stereotype that LLLers
are lacto-maniacs who love to expose their boobs everywhere. I'm sure
they exist, although I've never met one and I've hung with a LLL crowd
since the seventies, on and off... I don't know anyone who is out to make
others feel *un*comfortable, but my comfort and my child's is more
important than some fuddy duddy getting upset because he glimpsed my
areola., IMNSHO.

There was a time when women were told to "discreetly" cover their ankles
and wrists at all times, too...

I'm not really into "promoting" stuff. I just do it.

Dar


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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/02 9:12:23 PM, freeform@... writes:

<< Well, it's not always easy, first off. You said you nursed babies - maybe
it's when the kids get beyond baby that it's harder, I don't know. >>

I've nursed two and three year olds. And by the time they're that old you
can tell them that if you're going to do it at that particular place and time
you're going to need to be covered up some.

<<I don't know anyone who is out to make
others feel *un*comfortable, but my comfort and my child's is more
important than some fuddy duddy getting upset because he glimpsed my
areola., IMNSHO.>>

It is to you and your child, but if he's rented an expensive hotel room he
has a right to some peace. And the difference between "fuddy duddy" and
righteous zeal is which side of the eyes you're on, probably.

<<There was a time when women were told to "discreetly" cover their ankles
and wrists at all times, too...>>

So do you think we're building up to nekkid twats?
Is it just the slippery slope?

(If not, I don't see real the connection between ankles and boobs.)

<<I really think the issue may be that many moms feel so surrounded by LLL and
acceptance that they really don't realize there are other, unrelated, people
in the hotel who may not be used to the openness women feel at their local
meetings.>>

I think that's the point the original phrasing made clearly, and I do think
some moms will need the reminder.

Sandra

Joylyn

All of you have written so many good thoughts. Thank you. I think I'm
probably more confused then ever about my feelings on this. I'd read
each post and say 'yeah, that's right." And then I'd read the next post,
which would completely disagree witht he prior one, and I'd say 'no,
that's right." sigh. Not sure what the right answer is, but I do
believe that what ever it is, it is certainly worth bringing it up for
discussion at the Conference meeting tomorrow. Thank you all for your
wisdom. And if you get this note tonight or first thing in the am, and
want ot write more, please do. The meeting isn't until 10:00 am
California time, and also the program book doesn't go to print until
March, so there is still plenty of time to hash this issue out.

I knew I'd get good and varied opinions here. Thank you.

Joylyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/11/02 9:12:23 PM, freeform@... writes:
>
> << Well, it's not always easy, first off. You said you nursed babies -
> maybe
> it's when the kids get beyond baby that it's harder, I don't know. >>
>
> I've nursed two and three year olds. And by the time they're that old
> you
> can tell them that if you're going to do it at that particular place
> and time
> you're going to need to be covered up some.
>
> <<I don't know anyone who is out to make
> others feel *un*comfortable, but my comfort and my child's is more
> important than some fuddy duddy getting upset because he glimpsed my
> areola., IMNSHO.>>
>
> It is to you and your child, but if he's rented an expensive hotel
> room he
> has a right to some peace. And the difference between "fuddy duddy"
> and
> righteous zeal is which side of the eyes you're on, probably.
>
> <<There was a time when women were told to "discreetly" cover their
> ankles
> and wrists at all times, too...>>
>
> So do you think we're building up to nekkid twats?
> Is it just the slippery slope?
>
> (If not, I don't see real the connection between ankles and boobs.)
>
> <<I really think the issue may be that many moms feel so surrounded by
> LLL and
> acceptance that they really don't realize there are other, unrelated,
> people
> in the hotel who may not be used to the openness women feel at their
> local
> meetings.>>
>
> I think that's the point the original phrasing made clearly, and I do
> think
> some moms will need the reminder.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kathryn Orlinsky

> I've nursed two and three year olds. And by the time they're that old you
> can tell them that if you're going to do it at that particular place and time
> you're going to need to be covered up some.

Well...you can tell them, but they might not listen. There are toddlers
who thwart all attempts at discretion but who cannot tolerate delays
until they get to a more private place. However, I think mothers should
do the best they can to breastfeed discretely. Personally, I think it's
good for people to see babies nursing, but that positive message is
going to be lost if the experience is offensive to them.

--
Kathy Orlinsky
mailto:kathyorlinsky@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/02 10:34:23 AM, kathyorlinsky@... writes:

<< Well...you can tell them, but they might not listen. There are toddlers
who thwart all attempts at discretion but who cannot tolerate delays
until they get to a more private place. >>

At a conference, there are conference rooms (which aren't public) and hotel
rooms (ditto), and I would rather carry a screaming toddler a few hundred
yards to nurse than to just roll over and let him do what isn't good for the
breastfeeding-in-public cause.

Most two year olds aren't too young to understand "Okay, IF" or "IF then..."
They forget pretty soon, but it's possible to use humor and smiling sweetness
and make it work. Sometimes all it involves is changing to another chair or
changing angles 90 degrees, away from the main flow of human traffic.

Sandra

Joylyn

Hi Kathy, I didn't know you were on this list.

Janene doesn't like to be discreet. I say "we're in public" and she'd
still try to pull my entire breast out, pull my shirt way up, etc. I
remember specifically one day a few months ago when I told her "we're in
public honey, let me do it" and she did. Later when we were at home she
was nursing and she pushed my shirt up to my neck and I pulled it down a
bit and she said "mommy, we are NOT in public now." OK....

Joylyn

Kathryn Orlinsky wrote:

> > I've nursed two and three year olds. And by the time they're that
> old you
> > can tell them that if you're going to do it at that particular place
> and time
> > you're going to need to be covered up some.
>
> Well...you can tell them, but they might not listen. There are
> toddlers
> who thwart all attempts at discretion but who cannot tolerate delays
> until they get to a more private place. However, I think mothers
> should
> do the best they can to breastfeed discretely. Personally, I think
> it's
> good for people to see babies nursing, but that positive message is
> going to be lost if the experience is offensive to them.
>
> --
> Kathy Orlinsky
> mailto:kathyorlinsky@...
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT


>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

on 1/12/02 9:54 AM, Joylyn at joylyn@... wrote:

> Janene doesn't like to be discreet. I say "we're in public" and she'd
> still try to pull my entire breast out, pull my shirt way up, etc. I
> remember specifically one day a few months ago when I told her "we're in
> public honey, let me do it" and she did. Later when we were at home she
> was nursing and she pushed my shirt up to my neck and I pulled it down a
> bit and she said "mommy, we are NOT in public now." OK....

Both my kids weaned themselves at about one year; I can't imagine what it's
like to have a child who has *words* for it... "Mummy dear, I'd like a bit
of titty now."

I'd die of embarassment! :-)

Nancy, blushing

Sharon Rudd

Or: Please nurse modestly out of respect for your own
feelings when other people act stupid.



> Maybe "Please nurse modestly out of respect for
> others in the hotel."


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Joylyn

Nancy Wooton wrote:

> on 1/12/02 9:54 AM, Joylyn at joylyn@... wrote:
>
> > Janene doesn't like to be discreet. I say "we're in public" and
> she'd
> > still try to pull my entire breast out, pull my shirt way up, etc.
> I
> > remember specifically one day a few months ago when I told her
> "we're in
> > public honey, let me do it" and she did. Later when we were at home
> she
> > was nursing and she pushed my shirt up to my neck and I pulled it
> down a
> > bit and she said "mommy, we are NOT in public now." OK....
>
> Both my kids weaned themselves at about one year; I can't imagine what
> it's
> like to have a child who has *words* for it... "Mummy dear, I'd like
> a bit
> of titty now."

Well, it's not exactly like that, although it can. With Lexie we used
the word cuzzle, which is a code word. most talking kids have a code
word. She'd ask to cuzzle and most people had no clue what that meant.
But it is very sweet to have a child that has words for it. children
that can and do talk about breastfeeding are very clear that it's
important to them, and much of the talk is about this. Lexie weaned at
just under age 6 and she clearly remembers breastfeeding. The see
breasts as for children. They nurse their dolls, they have little
concept of bottles, and when bottles are being used, they always contain
juice or pumped milk. There are so many reasons to nurse toddlers and
big kids, I've nursed Lexie through four surgeries. She healed faster,
and easier. And she didn't have to fast as long before surgery as
breastmilk is a clear fluid. And often, with my girls, when they are
nursing is the only time I can talk without constant negotiation.
Nursing also calms the toddler tantrum and soothes every hurt, and is my
insurance for good nutrition. Anyway, you can't imagine what it is like
to have children who ask for nursing, and I can't imagine weaning a baby
at such a young age.

> I'd die of embarassment! :-)

Nahh, no one has ever died of embarassment.

Joylyn

>
>
> Nancy, blushing
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/12/02 4:05:38 PM, Felicitas@... writes:

<< "Mummy dear, I'd like a bit
of titty now."

I'd die of embarassment! :-) >>

Nah, it would come along gradually and probably be something like "mom milk"
or "nummie" anyway.

Sandra

Joylyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 1/12/02 4:05:38 PM, Felicitas@... writes:
>
> << "Mummy dear, I'd like a bit
> of titty now."
>
> I'd die of embarassment! :-) >>
>
> Nah, it would come along gradually and probably be something like "mom
> milk"
> or "nummie" anyway.

Yes, or "cuzzle please mommy."

And then when she's done, she pops off and says "oh mommy, thank you for
that sweet milk."

And your heart melts.

Joylyn

>
>
> Sandra
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

Mikey, trying to say "nurse" would say, "I want to nurts." Nobody had a clue
except immediate family.

Pam

----------
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Speaking of Respect...
Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002, 5:01 PM


<< "Mummy dear, I'd like a bit
of titty now."

I'd die of embarassment! :-) >>

Nah, it would come along gradually and probably be something like "mom milk"
or "nummie" anyway.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/13/02 7:15:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Both my kids weaned themselves at about one year; I can't imagine what it's
like to have a child who has *words* for it... "Mummy dear, I'd like a bit
of titty now." >>

Well, they don't say it like THAT!! LOL!! That sounds like something
an adult would say. Laura weaned at 2 months shy of 4. She would
ask for BA HUGGY DYES (that's what she called nursing and breasts).
Nobody else knew what she was talking about. Allison is 2 1/2 now
and says, "Mommy, I want ehhh ehhh ehhh." Again, nobody except
the family knows what she is talking about. Most of the verbal kids
I know who are still nursing, make up their own words for it and I've
NEVER heard of a nursling asking to nurse, saying anything like
"Mummy dear, I'd like a bit of titty." The closest thing I've heard
is "Mommy, I want to nurse." I don't think I've EVER heard a kid
call it "titty" in fact.

Andrea Kim :-)
Full Time Mommy to
Laura (2/16/96) & Allison (8/31/99)
Kent, WA,,,,,,,,soon to be Seattle!

meghan anderson

<<<<Most talking kids have a code word. She'd ask to
cuzzle and most people had no clue what that meant.
But it is very sweet to have a child that has words
for it. children
that can and do talk about breastfeeding are very
clear that it's
important to them, and much of the talk is about this.
Lexie weaned at just under age 6 and she clearly
remembers breastfeeding. The see breasts as for
children. They nurse their dolls, they have little
concept of bottles, and when bottles are being used,
they always
contain
juice or pumped milk.

Joylyn>>>>

Oh, this conversation brings back such fond memories!
Tamzin used to call breastfeeding 'mucktees'. I was
disappointed when she weaned herself at 2 and a half.
However, she still almost always nurses her 'babies'
when they have milk.

Meghan :-)

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Sharon Rudd

I don't think I've
> EVER heard a kid
> call it "titty" in fact.

Me neither. Roy's word was "huggle". I want to
"huggle". He still uses this conjuction for cuddle and
hug for cuddling. The older ones just said "Mama".

MEN call breasts "titties". I haven't even heard a
woman use that term. Except in print. How is the word
"titty" related to "titilate"?

When the older guys were about 2 I did begin to wear
dresses with openings in the back when we did things
like go to the grocery. Those (buggies) have seats
too conveniently placed for little ones to disrobe
Mama....my little monsters would do that to me just to
tease!! Other shoppers encouraged them by laughing!
Aarrgh!!

SOS



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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/14/02 8:50:22 AM, bearspawprint@... writes:

<< How is the word
"titty" related to "titilate"? >>

It's not. <g>

Ones from teat and the other is from a Latin word meaning to excite or
stimulate (tickling, not sexual).

Teat is from Anglo-Saxon, from Germanic, and means just that. A nipple, on
any mammal.

Sandra

Sharon Rudd

Thanks, Sandra
SOS
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/14/02 8:50:22 AM,
> bearspawprint@... writes:
>
> << How is the word
> "titty" related to "titilate"? >>
>
> It's not. <g>
>
> Ones from teat and the other is from a Latin word
> meaning to excite or
> stimulate (tickling, not sexual).
>
> Teat is from Anglo-Saxon, from Germanic, and means
> just that. A nipple, on
> any mammal.
>
> Sandra
>


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Carol & Mac

My #2 son just called it 'milk'. Trouble was, one day at a homeschool
get together a couple of us were getting lunch ready and when he asked
for milk, I replied, "I'm busy just now getting lunch, I'll be with you
in a couple of minutes". I should have know better - although he was
about 3 1/2yo and quite capable of waiting a few minutes, he was a
'spirited' child. So when a kindly woman poured him a glass off cold
milk from the fridge, and insisted he take it from her, her threw it at
her, shouting, "I don't want COW'S milk!!".

BTW, he is 18yo now, and very happy to drink cow's milk these days :-)

Carol

Nancy Wooton

on 1/14/02 7:46 AM, Sharon Rudd at bearspawprint@... wrote:

> I don't think I've
>> EVER heard a kid
>> call it "titty" in fact.
>
FYI (and I didn't think I'd have to say this...)

IT WAS A JOKE; A play on all the Britspeak/Britfood discussions -- "Mummy
dear, I'd like a bit of titty now" -- get it?

> MEN call breasts "titties". I haven't even heard a
> woman use that term. Except in print. How is the word
> "titty" related to "titilate"?
>
BRITS call them "titties," at least on Monty Python.

"Titilate" is the Latin for "tickle," which I know from using an English
dictionary to translate the Hogwarts School motto, "Never Tickle Sleeping
Dragons."

"Tit" is from "teat," a perfectly correct English word for the nipple.
(Reading ahead, I see Sandra has answered this, too.)

Nancy

You people are way too serious <ggg>

Tia Leschke

>
>
>I nursed three babies in public, for many years, and never flashed tit at
>anyone. No reason to. I had nursing clothes and blankets and more often than
>not people didn't even know the baby was nursing, just thought it was
>sleeping or snuggling.

Then there's the toddler who insists on lifting Mummy's shirt *all* the way
up while nursing. That was when I stopped nursing Lars in public.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Sharon Rudd

> You people are way too serious <ggg>

Sorry, Nancy. XDH would certainly agree with you :)

SOS

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Dan Vilter

on 1/14/02 8:03 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> << How is the word
> "titty" related to "titilate"? >>
>
> It's not. <g>
>
> Ones from teat and the other is from a Latin word meaning to excite or
> stimulate (tickling, not sexual).
>
> Teat is from Anglo-Saxon, from Germanic, and means just that. A nipple, on
> any mammal.
>
> Sandra


I thought Beakman said it originally came from middle english word tittel, a
diacritical mark or the dot above the lower case letter I or the cross of
the t. To put the dot over the the I is to titilate it. The word was
absconded with later to mean something like tickle.

Not to get it confused with pottle...

Aah Beakman, the fount of information. It must be true. <G>

-Dan Vilter

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/14/02 10:21:33 PM, dvilter@... writes:

<< I thought Beakman said it originally came from middle english word tittel,
a
diacritical mark or the dot above the lower case letter I or the cross of
the t. To put the dot over the the I is to titilate it. The word was
absconded with later to mean something like tickle. >>

Beakman like on "Beakman's World"?? Maybe he's a chemist, not a linguist.

The OED has some tittle/tiddle stuff about trifling with people, gossiping,
tittle-tattle, which might be some of the prejudice against "tattling"--not
philosophical, but because the word itself has such a negative connotation,
it cannot be redeemed until it's renamed. One "tittle" mentions tickling but
they say it's probably not from the Latin. But it was the late 16th century,
I think, before it showed up, and Latin was the second language of lots of
Europeans for a good while before that. Anyone studying theology, law,
medicine or philosophy knew it.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>Both my kids weaned themselves at about one year; I can't imagine what it's
>like to have a child who has *words* for it... "Mummy dear, I'd like a bit
>of titty now."

My granddaughter used to yell at the top of her voice, "I want Booby, Mummy."
Oh well, we used the word Mama for nursing because I didn't want that
scenario. My daughter chose not to and gets to be embarrassed many times. <g>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Tia Leschke

>
>Well, they don't say it like THAT!! LOL!! That sounds like something
>an adult would say. Laura weaned at 2 months shy of 4. She would
>ask for BA HUGGY DYES (that's what she called nursing and breasts).
>Nobody else knew what she was talking about. Allison is 2 1/2 now
>and says, "Mommy, I want ehhh ehhh ehhh." Again, nobody except
>the family knows what she is talking about. Most of the verbal kids
>I know who are still nursing, make up their own words for it and I've
>NEVER heard of a nursling asking to nurse, saying anything like
>"Mummy dear, I'd like a bit of titty." The closest thing I've heard
>is "Mommy, I want to nurse." I don't think I've EVER heard a kid
>call it "titty" in fact.

I think it depends a great deal on what the parents start calling it when
the child is pre-verbal. If the mother asks, "Do you want to nurse?" the
child will probably call it that. If the mother calls it booby or titty,
that's the word the child will use (or try to use, which is where some of
the great kid sayings come from.)
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island