Literary Child

I would love everyone's input to help me understand further what the label
"unschooling" means to everyone. Does it mean different things to different
people? How differently can people unschool without being thrown out of the
category?

To me, unschooling is freedom. It's not following a schedule or curriculum.
Not forcing your child to learn anything. Letting your child learn at his
own pace. Letting the child direct his own learning. Letting him follow his
passions. Making resources available to him.

If my child wants to learn how to knit, what is the "unschooling" way to do
that? If I sit down with her and "teach" her how to knit, am I no longer
considered an unschooler? Am I supposed to just tell her to learn it on her
own? And if I hadn't taught her to read using the "system" she requested
(because that wouldn't be considered "unschooling"), then she would have to
wait to learn how to read on her own first, then years down the road, she
could read a book teaching her how to knit. That doesn't make sense to me.

Isn't unschooling about letting the child decide how to learn? Wouldn't it
be contrary to unschooling to tell my child he couldn't learn a certain way?
Or do I have it all wrong, and unschooling is about only using alternative
methods of learning? If that were the case, wouldn't it be wrong to have
any non-fiction books available to them at all? If they want to learn about
the different types of animals, wouldn't using a book be cheating? Shouldn't
they go out into the woods and somehow "figure out" the anatomy of a wolf on
their own?

If the book we used to teach my kids to read has been successful and
enjoyable for my kids, I see no problem with it. My son also got bored
towards the end of the book and we stopped. I didn't force him to continue.
But by then he had the basics down and just started reading books on his
own. If my youngest daughter never comes to me asking to learn how to read,
I will have the confidence that she will learn in her own way. I am not
debating that. But if she does come to me asking to learn to read, I will
help her. If she is interested in using the book, great. If not, we'll
find another way. But isn't using word games and puzzles just another
"method"? What makes that way of learning so different from learning from a
book? I'm just saying that unschooling shouldn't be about what to do, or
what not to do. For my family, it's about letting each child decide how,
when and what he wants to learn. If that includes "conventional" methods
when the child *requests* it, does that kick us out of the unschooling
category?

What if the child wants to learn piano, and wants to take piano lessons? Is
it only considered unschooling if she learns how to play piano on her
own? Does
taking a "lesson" make her not an unschooler? I'm truly not trying to be
argumentative and I hope I'm not coming across as such. I'm sincerely
trying to learn more about what unschooling is. Is it possible that it
means different things to different people? Aren't there unschoolers and
"radical" unschoolers�are there other layers to unschooling? Is the
definition I have in my heart about the term "unschooling" wrong??

Noelle
http://literarychild.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JENNIFER MARTIN

right on sister!! Who is to say that your way or my way is the wrong way and how did they get so smart and so a matter o fact?? If the kids want to take a book of any kind and learn from it and need some instruction maybe because it is above their own learning at the moment should I say *no, son if you can't do it yourself and I need to teach how to do it so you can learn then you need to learn how on your own or wait untill you can do it yourself sorry.* That doesn't seem right to me at all.

Literary Child <literarychild@...> wrote: I would love everyone's input to help me understand further what the label
"unschooling" means to everyone. Does it mean different things to different
people? How differently can people unschool without being thrown out of the
category?

To me, unschooling is freedom. It's not following a schedule or curriculum.
Not forcing your child to learn anything. Letting your child learn at his
own pace. Letting the child direct his own learning. Letting him follow his
passions. Making resources available to him.

If my child wants to learn how to knit, what is the "unschooling" way to do
that? If I sit down with her and "teach" her how to knit, am I no longer
considered an unschooler? Am I supposed to just tell her to learn it on her
own? And if I hadn't taught her to read using the "system" she requested
(because that wouldn't be considered "unschooling"), then she would have to
wait to learn how to read on her own first, then years down the road, she
could read a book teaching her how to knit. That doesn't make sense to me.

Isn't unschooling about letting the child decide how to learn? Wouldn't it
be contrary to unschooling to tell my child he couldn't learn a certain way?
Or do I have it all wrong, and unschooling is about only using alternative
methods of learning? If that were the case, wouldn't it be wrong to have
any non-fiction books available to them at all? If they want to learn about
the different types of animals, wouldn't using a book be cheating? Shouldn't
they go out into the woods and somehow "figure out" the anatomy of a wolf on
their own?

If the book we used to teach my kids to read has been successful and
enjoyable for my kids, I see no problem with it. My son also got bored
towards the end of the book and we stopped. I didn't force him to continue.
But by then he had the basics down and just started reading books on his
own. If my youngest daughter never comes to me asking to learn how to read,
I will have the confidence that she will learn in her own way. I am not
debating that. But if she does come to me asking to learn to read, I will
help her. If she is interested in using the book, great. If not, we'll
find another way. But isn't using word games and puzzles just another
"method"? What makes that way of learning so different from learning from a
book? I'm just saying that unschooling shouldn't be about what to do, or
what not to do. For my family, it's about letting each child decide how,
when and what he wants to learn. If that includes "conventional" methods
when the child *requests* it, does that kick us out of the unschooling
category?

What if the child wants to learn piano, and wants to take piano lessons? Is
it only considered unschooling if she learns how to play piano on her
own? Does
taking a "lesson" make her not an unschooler? I'm truly not trying to be
argumentative and I hope I'm not coming across as such. I'm sincerely
trying to learn more about what unschooling is. Is it possible that it
means different things to different people? Aren't there unschoolers and
"radical" unschoolers…are there other layers to unschooling? Is the
definition I have in my heart about the term "unschooling" wrong??

Noelle
http://literarychild.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links










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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler Waynforth

--- In [email protected], "Literary Child"
<literarychild@...> wrote:

> If my child wants to learn how to knit, what is the "unschooling"
way to do
> that? If I sit down with her and "teach" her how to knit, am I no
longer
> considered an unschooler? Am I supposed to just tell her to learn
it on her
> own? And if I hadn't taught her to read using the "system" she
requested
> (because that wouldn't be considered "unschooling"), then she would
have to
> wait to learn how to read on her own first, then years down the
road, she
> could read a book teaching her how to knit. That doesn't make sense
to me.
>

I knit. I'm not very good at it, I don't do it enough, but I knit and
I enjoy knitting. I enjoy the whole process, finding a pattern,
picking out the yarn and the buttons and carrying it around with me
hoping that I will finish it more quickly if I keep it present. I
have a sweater (jumper for Brits--is it a jumper in Australia and NZ
as well?) that I've been working on since Christmas 3 years ago. I
had to restart it once, and I ran out of the wool that I could only
replace by going to the U.S. to get it (which I did last summer). I
have half of the sleeves and the turtleneck to finish. Those are my
credentials as a potential instructor of knitting.

I taught myself to knit. My mom taught me when I was 7 or something,
and I can remember lying on a lawn chair in the backyard with a ball
of nylon blue yarn attempting to knit and getting horribly bored with
it. I didn't want to learn, or maybe I'd asked, but wasn't actually
interested, just wanted something that I could do with my mom. But,
when I was pregnant with Linnaea I got a couple of books out from the
library and a pattern from a friend's wool shop and began the most
ill-fashioned sweater imaginable. I worked on it when we were driving
from Albuquerque to Wichita, KS for Christmas with my grandparents.
When I got there Grandma looked through her piles of knitting supplies
and found a pattern for a sweet little jacket for the baby to be. Mom
and I went out and bought some cotton yarn, and pulled apart the other
monstrosity, and I knit this little jacket. And Linnaea wore it in
her passport photos.

If Simon or Linnaea were to approach me with a desire to knit, I would
offer them the knitting bobbin thing that my mom gave us from France,
which both of them have played with off and on. And I would sit with
them. I used to have a knitting machine where you crank the handle
and feed the yarn into the dealy and out comes this long tube of a
knitted thing which invariable became some sort of slightly homely
doll's dress, maybe I'd find one of those to play with. If they were
really interested in knitting, in making themselves something with
yarn, I'd show them how I knit. I have tons of needles, my grandma
(same grandma) gave me her collection, some of them make amazing
daggers (big, bright blue daggers with a white, very short hilt) so
could easily offer them the tools and I have lots of wool lying about.
I even have a little drop spindle so they could spin their own wool,
which is lots of fun and lead to Simon collecting lots of balls of
wool for me from the Blue County Fair in Minnesota last summer.

But I would be careful not to push knitting on them. I find that
there are many things, like knitting, that I had to grow into. Maybe
at 7 when I lay on my lawn chair in the warmth of the Nebraska sun
part of what kept me from paying attention to perling and knitting was
that I didn't have the hand-eye coordination yet. My hands hadn't
grown into knitting. Or maybe it was that running through the
sprinkler or hiding in the prohibition hole under the closet floor
were much better ways to spend my free, not-in-school, glorious summer
days. For years I saw knitting as something beyond my ability because
of those moments on the chair. Embroidery suffered at the same hands.
I wouldn't make them fearful of the difficulties of knitting. But I
would be careful to make sure that their path with knitting wasn't
paved with frustrations. I wouldn't strew their path with the
frustration of believing that they could only learn to knit if they
taught themselves from a book, as I did. And if it was something that
they could only learn from a book or from reading, like a walkthrough
for a gamecube game, I'd read it to them, I would never suggest to
them that if they were reading this would be so much easier for them.

Schuyler

Sandra Dodd

Having written what's below, I think maybe even better than reading
it would be to read this:
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling


On Mar 23, 2006, at 7:54 AM, Literary Child wrote:

> I would love everyone's input to help me understand further what
> the label
> "unschooling" means to everyone.


It's not a label for me, it's a philosophy.

-=-To me, unschooling is freedom. It's not following a schedule or
curriculum.
Not forcing your child to learn anything.-=-

If you believe it is possible to force someone to learn something,
you haven't learned enough about how learning works and what it
really is.

-=- Letting the child direct his own learning. -=-

No one needs to direct anything when unschooling is in full flow.

-=-If my child wants to learn how to knit, what is the "unschooling"
way to do
that? If I sit down with her and "teach" her how to knit, am I no
longer
considered an unschooler? Am I supposed to just tell her to learn it
on her
own?-=-

If you say "sit here for an hour because you said you wanted to learn
to knit" that would be a kind of teaching that many people feel is
necessary.

What would you do if an adult friend asked you to help her learn to
knit? Treat your children as you would friend you like�intelligent
adult friends. You would show them, answer their question, maybe
show them how to read directions in a book if they wondered what all
that number-letter stuff means, right? You'd talk to them about
sizes of needles and yarn, probably. You would probably stop as soon
as they seemed distracted or tired, even if that was five minutes later.

-=-And if I hadn't taught her to read using the "system" she requested
(because that wouldn't be considered "unschooling"), then she would
have to
wait to learn how to read on her own first, then years down the road,
she
could read a book teaching her how to knit. That doesn't make sense
to me.
-=-

You're casting your thinking in extremes. You have claimed (which
indicates you either thought it or believe that WE will believe it)
that the options were using the book you used (which I doubt your
daughter went and bought and brought to you) OR waiting YEARS.

That's a false model, and you can get emotional about the "choice"
but it wasn't a choice between those two things.

-=-Isn't unschooling about letting the child decide how to learn?
Wouldn't it
be contrary to unschooling to tell my child he couldn't learn a
certain way?
Or do I have it all wrong, and unschooling is about only using
alternative
methods of learning?--=

None of that. None of those are a yes or no answer. You're thinking
on the crusty edges instead of relaxing into the middle more
receptively. If you're not receptive, you can't learn from this
list. If you're sure you konw as much as people who've been
unschooling for ten or fifteen years, why ask us any questions at all?

-=- If that were the case, wouldn't it be wrong to have
any non-fiction books available to them at all? If they want to
learn about
the different types of animals, wouldn't using a book be cheating?
Shouldn't
they go out into the woods and somehow "figure out" the anatomy of a
wolf on
their own?
-=-

This is nothing but a frustrated rant. So was the rest of the post,
up to this point:
-=- I'm truly not trying to be argumentative and I hope I'm not
coming across as such. -=-

It's not enough to say you're not trying to be argumentative.
It's not enough to be not trying to be.
It's important to try NOT to be argumentative.

No one else forced you to hit "send." If you really didn't want to
be argumentative, you could have asked questions in the middle,
instead of frightened kinds of slasher-music questions designed, it
seemed, to suggest people here had never thought of those things.

Here are some places to read answers to all your questions. They've
all been asked before:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling

-=- If that includes "conventional" methods
when the child *requests* it, does that kick us out of the unschooling
category?
-=-

There is no way to be certified an unschooler. YOU decide when you
feel comfortable. No one will either invite you in or "kick you
out." Some individuals might think you could do better. If you
don't care about their opinions, it's no problem. If you care too
much about their opinions, that's a kind of problem all on its own.

Care about your children first. If ideas here help you, use them.
If they don't, don't.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 23, 2006, at 8:44 AM, JENNIFER MARTIN wrote:

> right on sister!! Who is to say that your way or my way is the
> wrong way and how did they get so smart and so a matter o fact?? If
> the kids want to take a book of any kind and learn from it and need
> some instruction maybe because it is above their own learning at
> the moment should I say *no, son if you can't do it yourself and I
> need to teach how to do it so you can learn then you need to learn
> how on your own or wait untill you can do it yourself sorry.* That
> doesn't seem right to me at all.


The "right on!"s of people who have only recently joined the list are
not likely to be as valuable to those trying to understand
unschooling as the experiences of people who have lived with it for
many years.

We're not talking about right ways or wrong ways, we're talking about
traditionally-expected and -accepted ways, and ways that make
unschooling work better.

The way experienced unschoolers got so smart and so matter of fact
was by usnchooling for many years.

Sandra

[email protected]

Oops! Hit send before writing anything!

Walmart (and I've seen them on Ebay) sells this circular thing, I think it's
called a knitting loom? Or something like that. It's a circle, with pegs
all around it. Somehow, you just wrap the yarn around it and you end up
knitting. Ebay sells them in a variety of sizes so you can do all sorts of
things.

Years ago (I'm not sure if they make them anymore!) I bought a CD Rom from
Walmart, made by COATS thread and yarn company, that teaches knitting. It has
every step demonstrated, and you can pause it, rewind, etc. It was GREAT!
They had one for Crochet too, but when I went back to the store they were all
gone.

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah

TV is right up there with politics and religion. I
mean this topic elicits more questions than "What
about church?" in the unschooling community. I think
even sugar is less of a hot topic than TV.

And it really cracks me up. Because TV is like a
godsend around here.

My girls really like to wake up slowly watching TV.
This is great for me because it gives me a chance to
drink my espresso, read the paper (still looking for a
dog), switch the laundry, maybe do a little pilates,
and generally prepare for the day. A moment to clean
in the morning is great for me. I feel ready to say
lots of yeses when I'm not saying, "Let me just slick
this up first."

TV often offers us a moment to reconnect. I can sit
down with the girls and laugh out loud or ask what
shows they like and why. Many, many great
conversations have happened because of this.

We have the sit and spin and a mini tramp and puzzles
and games and art projects and a computer and Lego's
and baby dolls and magazines and books in the same
room as one of our TVs...people rarely just sit
passively and watch TV.

It offers siblings a chance to do something together.
Or, it can get them apart!

Lots of imaginative games and pretend play have ensued
due to an idea gleaned from a television program.

We've discovered new crafts, new recipes, art
activities and science projects...all from TV.

Many new concepts have come to us via TV: from
beginning reading for my almost three year old to the
study of physics and "The Elegant Universe" for
myself.

Half the music I like I found from watching TV and
movies...either from soundtracks or music videos or
musical guests or TV concerts.

My husband turns it on at bedtime for white noise. He
has to wake up earlier than us and this drowns out our
sometimes loud sounds late at night.

TV (I'm thinking parody here) has given us many ways
to laugh about situations that have the potential to
make me cry.

The TV offers a connection to history and literature
and language and culture and differing opinions and
glimpses of remote parts of the world I will probably
never see in person.

I like to watch shows from my childhood...it is a
connection. My kids learn more about me from what I
watched and liked when I was younger.

We've learned how to cook new foods.

My husband, a busy, busy man, will actually sit with
us if we watch a show together, and he finds things
for him and the girls to watch together. Major
bonding.

When my kids are in a "TV phase", I like to look at it
as a great opportunity for me to catch up on
housework, phone calls, a new craft, or my sleep :).
These don't last long so instead of worrying I take
full advantage!

It really adds to our never-ending list of questions.
The topics take us to the library and on field trips
and into new artistic endeavors.

Ooooh, and here's a really good one: TV topics are a
great conversation link between my kids and schooled
kids. They can talk about favorite movies or shows or
actors or musicians. These topics are much better
than, "What grade are you in?"

We have been introduced to so many fun games and toys
because of the *gasp* advertisements.

It gives me a cozy, tucked-in, home-from-school
feeling. My kids don't really have that, but I'm sure
sometimes they get a nest-y cozy feeling.

It connects us generationally. My kids can talk to
their grandparents about shows they mutually like and
they can watch them together. My grandparents don't
go to the skating rinks and sledding hills and zoos
with us, but they can watch Mary Poppins with my kids
and laugh and bond together.

My Mom had the TV on all the time. She loved it. But
I don't remember her sitting and just watching very
often. She crocheted and cooked and cleaned. And she
and I both read in front of the TV. I read many a
book in front of the TV just to be near her. I did
most of my homework in front of the TV (and did really
well according to their standards). And it still
gives me a chance to knit and paint my toes and other
things I like to do with some noise on.

And guess what, even though I have these feelings of
regard for the TV and tell my kids when their favorite
shows are on and get them lots of movies and offer to
go to lots of movies, they probably end up watching
the same amount of TV as some kids with TV limits
watch. Because they *want* full lives and have many
interests and love the outdoors and art and
experiments and friends and going out to eat and well,
you get the idea.

Sarah Anderson-Thimmes


__________________________________________________
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Nittany Lion

> TV is right up there with politics and religion. I
> mean this topic elicits more questions than "What
> about church?" in the unschooling community. I think
> even sugar is less of a hot topic than TV.

I agree with you on that wholeheartedly!! LOL!!

Dawn

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 24, 2006, at 9:30 AM, Sarah wrote:


-=-Half the music I like I found from watching TV and
movies...either from soundtracks or music videos or
musical guests or TV concerts.-=-

Jim Henson, on tape, has made many car rides happier. Some young
adult friends of ours, when Kirby was little and a big Sesame Street
fan, got turned on to Sesame Street by Kirby showing them such songs
as Frog in the Glen, and Rebel L. So they would borrow our Sesame
Street tapes for road trips.

I discovered Ruben Blades from Sesame Street.

-=-Ooooh, and here's a really good one: TV topics are a
great conversation link between my kids and schooled
kids. They can talk about favorite movies or shows or
actors or musicians. These topics are much better
than, "What grade are you in?" -=-

Ah, but some people homeschool so that their children will HAVE no
links with schooled kids.
Some parents would be proud if their kids could say "I don't go to
school" and "I don't know, I don't watch TV."



Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 24, 2006, at 9:49 AM, Nittany Lion wrote:

> > TV is right up there with politics and religion. I
> > mean this topic elicits more questions than "What
> > about church?" in the unschooling community. I think
> > even sugar is less of a hot topic than TV.
>
> I agree with you on that wholeheartedly!! LOL!!


I hope you read the rest of her post, though, instead of stopping
while you were still smiling and agreeing.

Sandra

s.waynforth

> And guess what, even though I have these feelings of
> regard for the TV and tell my kids when their favorite
> shows are on and get them lots of movies and offer to
> go to lots of movies, they probably end up watching
> the same amount of TV as some kids with TV limits
> watch. Because they *want* full lives and have many
> interests and love the outdoors and art and
> experiments and friends and going out to eat and well,
> you get the idea.

My kids may spend more time watching television than restricted kids do,
I suppose it depends on the restriction. But they aren't in school, they
have more opportunity for free time to choose to watch television than
do children who are forced to spend 8 hours a day in an institution. I
could easily say that they spend a smaller proportion of their free time
watching television, or focusing on television than do those children
who have their time limited by school and after school care. And maybe
that is a big factor in looking at the applicability of those studies
that suggest that limiting television is a good thing to do. With
limitations already in their lives, children who are in school have a
much smaller free-time budget to devote to full lives that can
incorporate television with other choices.

Schuyler

Nittany Lion

Yes Sandra - I read her whole post and all the other posts. I'm not an
anti-tv elitist. We watch tv, kiddos and all and we reap all the wonderfull
benefits of the technolgy/media world - I never said we didn't. I
personally prefer that my kids not watch tv for hours, so we set limits. I
don't think its a big deal. I don't beleive that after 2 hours (or however
short or long) of tv that suggesting to my kids that they might want to find
something else to do is belittling or undermining their trust - that is just
silly. Its one issue and it need not be made into such a huge deal.
Freedom and empowerment is found in a varity of ways and tv, or lack of tv
is barely a taste of what freedom or empowerment completely, or even partly
is. There is much more out there that is far, far more important than
missing a few tv shows bc mom suggests another activity. I'm sure that
isn't the point, but maybe someday I'll get it!! <wink>

Dawn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Why I love TV


>
> On Mar 24, 2006, at 9:49 AM, Nittany Lion wrote:
>
>> > TV is right up there with politics and religion. I
>> > mean this topic elicits more questions than "What
>> > about church?" in the unschooling community. I think
>> > even sugar is less of a hot topic than TV.
>>
>> I agree with you on that wholeheartedly!! LOL!!
>
>
> I hope you read the rest of her post, though, instead of stopping
> while you were still smiling and agreeing.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

s.waynforth

> Yes Sandra - I read her whole post and all the other posts. I'm not an
> anti-tv elitist. We watch tv, kiddos and all and we reap all the
> wonderfull
> benefits of the technolgy/media world - I never said we didn't. I
> personally prefer that my kids not watch tv for hours, so we set limits.
We set limits? Is it all of you? Do your children limit their
television consumption along with you? If not, it is you who are
setting limits. You who are deeming television as something crucial to
minimize, however large your limit it is still a limit.


> I
> don't think its a big deal. I don't beleive that after 2 hours (or
> however
> short or long) of tv that suggesting to my kids that they might want
> to find
> something else to do is belittling or undermining their trust - that
> is just
> silly.
Are you suggesting? Are you saying "hey, wouldn't it be nice to go for
a walk, or how about I get out the lego and we can build some cool
towers or anybody want to go swimming? or are you saying "well, it
seems like you've watched enough television today, you (we) need to find
something else to do"? Those are very different possibilities. One is
a suggestion, the other is not in that there is no choice in the second
option. And actually, the first way of suggesting that something else
might be fun to do doesn't have to be spoken, you could get out the
lego, or you could put out some playdoh and play with it or whatever
other things might engage your children without telling them that you
feel that they've had enough television.

> Its one issue and it need not be made into such a huge deal.
> Freedom and empowerment is found in a varity of ways and tv, or lack
> of tv
> is barely a taste of what freedom or empowerment completely, or even
> partly
> is. There is much more out there that is far, far more important than
> missing a few tv shows bc mom suggests another activity. I'm sure that
> isn't the point, but maybe someday I'll get it!! <wink>

For me the reason why it is a big deal, the point of not making
arbitrary time limitation for television, is that I have grown to trust
Simon and Linnaea's ability to address their own needs appropriately.
That doesn't mean that I have no input in what they are doing, but it
does mean that if I suggest something and they turn it down I trust that
they have good reasons for doing so. And I am getting better at not
feeling hurt by their rejection of my ideas :-) . If I trust them to
know what they want, if I trust them to learn to negotiate the world in
those ways that best suit them, I can easily trust them to take or leave
television as they desire. And if I were to start deciding that
television was far, far less important than doing the things that I want
them to do, I would be sabotaging so much of the relationship they have
with me and their understanding of how much they can affect their own
world.

Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 24, 2006, at 11:05 AM, Nittany Lion wrote:

> - that is just
> silly


If it's silly, then I haven't thought about or I'm not very smart, it
seems you're saying.
"Silly" is small, and something to laugh at.
"Silly" isn't nice.

-=-Its one issue and it need not be made into such a huge deal.
Freedom and empowerment is found in a varity of ways and tv, or lack
of tv
is barely a taste of what freedom or empowerment completely, or even
partly
is. -=-

If some freedom is enough for you, and you stop at "some," you'll
miss something wonderful.

-=-There is much more out there that is far, far more important than
missing a few tv shows bc mom suggests another activity. I'm sure that
isn't the point, but maybe someday I'll get it!! <wink>
-=-

If you're lucky.

It won't hurt my family if you don't get it, but it would help yours
if you would.

Sandra

averyschmidt

> I
> personally prefer that my kids not watch tv for hours, so we set
limits. I
> don't think its a big deal. I don't beleive that after 2 hours
(or however
> short or long) of tv that suggesting to my kids that they might
want to find
> something else to do is belittling or undermining their trust -
that is just
> silly.

Making suggestions is different from setting and enforcing limits,
but you seem to have lumped them together above as if they are the
same thing.

> There is much more out there that is far, far more important than
> missing a few tv shows bc mom suggests another activity.

There it is again. Are the kids free to decline
mom's "suggestions?" If not, then they aren't really mere
suggestions are they? Sometimes kids really do watch tv by default
because they don't have better options, so I think having other
options to choose from (or to choose simultaneously) is a good
thing. But "choice" would be the key word to me- MORE options, not
purposely-made-fewer options.
If the hard part about making a choice is that there's something on
someone doesn't want to miss, there's always programmed VCRs or
tivo! :-)

Patti

Kathleen Gehrke

--- In [email protected], "s.waynforth" <s.waynforth@...>
wrote:
>
>
> Simon and Linnaea's ability to address their own needs
appropriately.
> That doesn't mean that I have no input in what they are doing, but
it
> does mean that if I suggest something and they turn it down I trust
that
> they have good reasons for doing so. And I am getting better at not
> feeling hurt by their rejection of my ideas :-) . If I trust them to
> know what they want, if I trust them to learn to negotiate the world
in
> those ways that best suit them, I can easily trust them to take or
leave
> television as they desire.

I really love this. My eleven year old Levi has been on a video game
rampage. He has been on Knights of the Old Republic at every
opportunity for several days. I trust that he is doing what he needs.
I also know he will not still be on the game when he is 18. LOl at
least not this session of the game. That he is gathering information
he needs right now.

Kathleen

katherand2003

> -=-Ooooh, and here's a really good one: TV topics are a
> great conversation link between my kids and schooled
> kids. They can talk about favorite movies or shows or
> actors or musicians. These topics are much better
> than, "What grade are you in?" -=-
>
> Ah, but some people homeschool so that their children will HAVE no
> links with schooled kids.
> Some parents would be proud if their kids could say "I don't go to
> school" and "I don't know, I don't watch TV."


It's too bad some parents are proud of finagling their children into
being unfriendly. :(( Strange.

In time, I'll look or think up some answers that keep the conversation
moving along after questions like "what grade are you in?" so that
we're not limited to "I don't know" or "we don't go." Those could be
real handy. I don't plan on having a problem like "don't know, don't
watch TV" to think about. I don't want fewer friends for me, dh, or ds.

Kathe

Nancy Wooton

On Mar 24, 2006, at 9:25 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Ah, but some people homeschool so that their children will HAVE no
> links with schooled kids.
> Some parents would be proud if their kids could say "I don't go to
> school" and "I don't know, I don't watch TV."

Many years ago, my dh and I were taking a kind of catachism class with
a couple several years younger than us; they had been raised
fundamentalist, with little or no TV, and had gone to private schools.
The young man asked the priest instructing us, what was the proper form
of address for a bishop; he replied, "Your Immenseness." I got the
joke right away and said "Nanu nanu," which clued in my dh, who watched
TV but not Mork and Mindy <g> The three of us enjoyed a laugh, while
this couple looked at us like we were nuts.

For better or for worse, TV is part of our culture. Keeping our kids
ignorant of it doesn't do them any favors; it just makes them even
weirder than they already are by not going to school. ;-)

Nancy

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 24, 2006, at 1:05 PM, Nittany Lion wrote:

> I never said we didn't. I
> personally prefer that my kids not watch tv for hours, so we set
> limits.

Not we. Your husband and you.

> I don't think its a big deal.

Then why have a rule?

> I don't beleive that after 2 hours (or however
> short or long) of tv that suggesting to my kids that they might
> want to find
> something else to do is belittling or undermining their trust -
> that is just
> silly.

And if after what you felt was too short of a time reading a really
good book your husband suggested it would be better to find something
else to do, how would you feel?

First, it means he's watching you and judging how you're using your
time and you aren't meeting his standards of acceptability.
Personally it would make me feel pretty icky to know my husband was
watching me and checking his watch and waiting for me to do something
he thought was better. :-/

Second, it means he thinks your judgement of how you spend your time
isn't as good as his.

Kids shouldn't be *left* to drift to the TV for 2 hours. But if TV is
what they want to do of all the options available to them then it
will help unschooling to give them the freedom to do so.

*BUT* the other options better be appealing *to them*! Offering to do
things with them is better than sending them off to play. (If they
preferred to play, they'd already be doing that.) Offering to go
places that they enjoy or you're certain they'll enjoy, bring kids
in, take them to other kids' houses is better too.

But to be a real choice, they need the freedom to say "no thanks.".

> Its one issue and it need not be made into such a huge deal.

To the makers of the rules, it doesn't need to be a big deal.

> Freedom and empowerment is found in a varity of ways and tv, or
> lack of tv
> is barely a taste of what freedom or empowerment completely, or
> even partly
> is.

The discussion really isn't about TV. It's about the freedom to
explore in a rich supportive environment in ways that *children* find
meaningful. It means being their partners in helping them get what
they want. It means offering options that appeal *to them*.

> There is much more out there that is far, far more important than
> missing a few tv shows bc mom suggests another activity.

They aren't missing shows if they're choosing to do something that
appeals to them more. They're making a choice to do something else.

(Also there are VCRs and TiVo to record. I found that when my
daughter knew she could watch something anytime -- rather than the
specific time the station put a show on -- that she often chose not
to watch. What sometimes keeps kids glued to the TV is fear of
missing something new or a favorite episode.)

And if you're making them turn the TV off, to do something else, it
shows a lack of respect for their feelings. How would you feel if
your husband shut the TV off and told you to do something else when
you were watching something you enjoyed? What if he shrugged your
protest off because he didn't think your protest was important since
you'd already been watching (in his estimation) "too much"?

> I'm sure that
> isn't the point, but maybe someday I'll get it!! <wink>

And your husband is out with his buddies and says "Yeah, my wife gets
upset when I send her off to do something other than read that silly
book she bought. Maybe someday I'll get it!!" <wink>

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cally Brown

I'm noy sure how this fits here but I think it does...

My 22yo went through a period when he was about 18) when he went to
clubs and parties with his friends and got drunk. I hated that. But
though I remeinded him about not driving, keeping safe etc. I bit my
tongue till it bled not saying - lecturing - all the rest of the stuff
I wanted to say. Ds never fit in with other kids his own age. His head
was simply somewhere else altogether, and he didn't care. Then he
reached a point where he wanted to fit in with 'normal' people, and by
that time partying was where they all were.

Last night one of his mates rang to ask him (pressure him actually) to
join him at a party. He just kept saying no. He was having way to much
fun at home, thanks all the same - playing Settlers of Catan with his
girlfriend, his mother and his brother.

Sometimes we have to work through our need to do things, and sometimes
the need is not for the thing we do: the drinking may be a need to fir
in, the tv watching a need to establish control, either can be a need to
get as much in before someone takes it away - as so many parents do when
after a week of 'freedom' the kid is still watching tv 'all the time'.

But when we are truely free to make our own decisions, we will not want
to spend our whole life doing one thing - tv watching, drinking - even
READING! as I found when I was on bedrest when pregnant with ds#1. Mind
you, I wouldn't mind having a second go at that last :-)

I just love these things Joyce said....
Cally

>Kids shouldn't be *left* to drift to the TV for 2 hours. But if TV is
>what they want to do of all the options available to them then it
>will help unschooling to give them the freedom to do so.
>
>*BUT* the other options better be appealing *to them*! Offering to do
>things with them is better than sending them off to play. (If they
>preferred to play, they'd already be doing that.) Offering to go
>places that they enjoy or you're certain they'll enjoy, bring kids
>in, take them to other kids' houses is better too.
>
>But to be a real choice, they need the freedom to say "no thanks.".
>
>
>The discussion really isn't about TV. It's about the freedom to
>explore in a rich supportive environment in ways that *children* find
>meaningful. It means being their partners in helping them get what
>they want. It means offering options that appeal *to them*.
>
>
>And if you're making them turn the TV off, to do something else, it
>shows a lack of respect for their feelings. How would you feel if
>your husband shut the TV off and told you to do something else when
>you were watching something you enjoyed? What if he shrugged your
>protest off because he didn't think your protest was important since
>you'd already been watching (in his estimation) "too much"?
>
>
>
>>I'm sure that
>>isn't the point, but maybe someday I'll get it!! <wink>
>>
>>
>
>And your husband is out with his buddies and says "Yeah, my wife gets
>upset when I send her off to do something other than read that silly
>book she bought. Maybe someday I'll get it!!" <wink>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ticia

Just popping in to say: I needed to hear this written out. Thank you.
I just needed to see it all written out and it has kind of smacked me
upside the head in figurative way...forgive my visual. The honesty on
this list is really refreshing.

Thoughtfully,
Ticia


> Are you suggesting? Are you saying "hey, wouldn't it be nice to go for
> a walk, or how about I get out the lego and we can build some cool
> towers or anybody want to go swimming? or are you saying "well, it
> seems like you've watched enough television today, you (we) need to
find
> something else to do"? Those are very different possibilities. One is
> a suggestion, the other is not in that there is no choice in the second
> option. And actually, the first way of suggesting that something else
> might be fun to do doesn't have to be spoken, you could get out the
> lego, or you could put out some playdoh and play with it or whatever
> other things might engage your children without telling them that you
> feel that they've had enough television.
>

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 24, 2006, at 9:30 AM, Sarah wrote:

> TV is right up there with politics and religion. I
> mean this topic elicits more questions than "What
> about church?" in the unschooling community. I think
> even sugar is less of a hot topic than TV.
>
> And it really cracks me up. Because TV is like a
> godsend around here.
>
> My girls really like to wake up slowly watching TV.
> This is great for me because it gives me a chance to
> drink my espresso, read the paper (still looking for a
> dog), switch the laundry, maybe do a little pilates,
> and generally prepare for the day. A moment to clean
> in the morning is great for me. I feel ready to say
> lots of yeses when I'm not saying, "Let me just slick
> this up first."
>
> TV often offers us a moment to reconnect. I can sit
> down with the girls and laugh out loud or ask what
> shows they like and why. Many, many great
> conversations have happened because of this.
>
> We have the sit and spin and a mini tramp and puzzles
> and games and art projects and a computer and Lego's
> and baby dolls and magazines and books in the same
> room as one of our TVs...people rarely just sit
> passively and watch TV.
>
> It offers siblings a chance to do something together.
> Or, it can get them apart!
>
> Lots of imaginative games and pretend play have ensued
> due to an idea gleaned from a television program.
>
> We've discovered new crafts, new recipes, art
> activities and science projects...all from TV.
>
> Many new concepts have come to us via TV: from
> beginning reading for my almost three year old to the
> study of physics and "The Elegant Universe" for
> myself.
>
> Half the music I like I found from watching TV and
> movies...either from soundtracks or music videos or
> musical guests or TV concerts.
>
> My husband turns it on at bedtime for white noise. He
> has to wake up earlier than us and this drowns out our
> sometimes loud sounds late at night.
>
> TV (I'm thinking parody here) has given us many ways
> to laugh about situations that have the potential to
> make me cry.
>
> The TV offers a connection to history and literature
> and language and culture and differing opinions and
> glimpses of remote parts of the world I will probably
> never see in person.
>
> I like to watch shows from my childhood...it is a
> connection. My kids learn more about me from what I
> watched and liked when I was younger.
>
> We've learned how to cook new foods.
>
> My husband, a busy, busy man, will actually sit with
> us if we watch a show together, and he finds things
> for him and the girls to watch together. Major
> bonding.
>
> When my kids are in a "TV phase", I like to look at it
> as a great opportunity for me to catch up on
> housework, phone calls, a new craft, or my sleep :).
> These don't last long so instead of worrying I take
> full advantage!
>
> It really adds to our never-ending list of questions.
> The topics take us to the library and on field trips
> and into new artistic endeavors.
>
> Ooooh, and here's a really good one: TV topics are a
> great conversation link between my kids and schooled
> kids. They can talk about favorite movies or shows or
> actors or musicians. These topics are much better
> than, "What grade are you in?"
>
> We have been introduced to so many fun games and toys
> because of the *gasp* advertisements.
>
> It gives me a cozy, tucked-in, home-from-school
> feeling. My kids don't really have that, but I'm sure
> sometimes they get a nest-y cozy feeling.
>
> It connects us generationally. My kids can talk to
> their grandparents about shows they mutually like and
> they can watch them together. My grandparents don't
> go to the skating rinks and sledding hills and zoos
> with us, but they can watch Mary Poppins with my kids
> and laugh and bond together.
>
> My Mom had the TV on all the time. She loved it. But
> I don't remember her sitting and just watching very
> often. She crocheted and cooked and cleaned. And she
> and I both read in front of the TV. I read many a
> book in front of the TV just to be near her. I did
> most of my homework in front of the TV (and did really
> well according to their standards). And it still
> gives me a chance to knit and paint my toes and other
> things I like to do with some noise on.
>
> And guess what, even though I have these feelings of
> regard for the TV and tell my kids when their favorite
> shows are on and get them lots of movies and offer to
> go to lots of movies, they probably end up watching
> the same amount of TV as some kids with TV limits
> watch. Because they *want* full lives and have many
> interests and love the outdoors and art and
> experiments and friends and going out to eat and well,
> you get the idea.
>
> Sarah Anderson-Thimmes
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> Visit your group "AlwaysLearning" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Queana

I missed this one... where did it come from originally? How can I contact
Sarah?

~Q~
aka Sarah
http://www.unbridledlearning.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 6:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Why I love TV


On Mar 24, 2006, at 9:30 AM, Sarah wrote:

> TV is right up there with politics and religion. I
> mean this topic elicits more questions than "What
> about church?" in the unschooling community. I think
> even sugar is less of a hot topic than TV.
>
> And it really cracks me up. Because TV is like a
> godsend around here.
>
> My girls really like to wake up slowly watching TV.
> This is great for me because it gives me a chance to
> drink my espresso, read the paper (still looking for a
> dog), switch the laundry, maybe do a little pilates,
> and generally prepare for the day. A moment to clean
> in the morning is great for me. I feel ready to say
> lots of yeses when I'm not saying, "Let me just slick
> this up first."
>
> TV often offers us a moment to reconnect. I can sit
> down with the girls and laugh out loud or ask what
> shows they like and why. Many, many great
> conversations have happened because of this.
>
> We have the sit and spin and a mini tramp and puzzles
> and games and art projects and a computer and Lego's
> and baby dolls and magazines and books in the same
> room as one of our TVs...people rarely just sit
> passively and watch TV.
>
> It offers siblings a chance to do something together.
> Or, it can get them apart!
>
> Lots of imaginative games and pretend play have ensued
> due to an idea gleaned from a television program.
>
> We've discovered new crafts, new recipes, art
> activities and science projects...all from TV.
>
> Many new concepts have come to us via TV: from
> beginning reading for my almost three year old to the
> study of physics and "The Elegant Universe" for
> myself.
>
> Half the music I like I found from watching TV and
> movies...either from soundtracks or music videos or
> musical guests or TV concerts.
>
> My husband turns it on at bedtime for white noise. He
> has to wake up earlier than us and this drowns out our
> sometimes loud sounds late at night.
>
> TV (I'm thinking parody here) has given us many ways
> to laugh about situations that have the potential to
> make me cry.
>
> The TV offers a connection to history and literature
> and language and culture and differing opinions and
> glimpses of remote parts of the world I will probably
> never see in person.
>
> I like to watch shows from my childhood...it is a
> connection. My kids learn more about me from what I
> watched and liked when I was younger.
>
> We've learned how to cook new foods.
>
> My husband, a busy, busy man, will actually sit with
> us if we watch a show together, and he finds things
> for him and the girls to watch together. Major
> bonding.
>
> When my kids are in a "TV phase", I like to look at it
> as a great opportunity for me to catch up on
> housework, phone calls, a new craft, or my sleep :).
> These don't last long so instead of worrying I take
> full advantage!
>
> It really adds to our never-ending list of questions.
> The topics take us to the library and on field trips
> and into new artistic endeavors.
>
> Ooooh, and here's a really good one: TV topics are a
> great conversation link between my kids and schooled
> kids. They can talk about favorite movies or shows or
> actors or musicians. These topics are much better
> than, "What grade are you in?"
>
> We have been introduced to so many fun games and toys
> because of the *gasp* advertisements.
>
> It gives me a cozy, tucked-in, home-from-school
> feeling. My kids don't really have that, but I'm sure
> sometimes they get a nest-y cozy feeling.
>
> It connects us generationally. My kids can talk to
> their grandparents about shows they mutually like and
> they can watch them together. My grandparents don't
> go to the skating rinks and sledding hills and zoos
> with us, but they can watch Mary Poppins with my kids
> and laugh and bond together.
>
> My Mom had the TV on all the time. She loved it. But
> I don't remember her sitting and just watching very
> often. She crocheted and cooked and cleaned. And she
> and I both read in front of the TV. I read many a
> book in front of the TV just to be near her. I did
> most of my homework in front of the TV (and did really
> well according to their standards). And it still
> gives me a chance to knit and paint my toes and other
> things I like to do with some noise on.
>
> And guess what, even though I have these feelings of
> regard for the TV and tell my kids when their favorite
> shows are on and get them lots of movies and offer to
> go to lots of movies, they probably end up watching
> the same amount of TV as some kids with TV limits
> watch. Because they *want* full lives and have many
> interests and love the outdoors and art and
> experiments and friends and going out to eat and well,
> you get the idea.
>
> Sarah Anderson-Thimmes
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> Visit your group "AlwaysLearning" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

Sandra Dodd

I missed this one... where did it come from originally? How can I
contact
Sarah?



Oh THAT"S where that went!! I pulled it up and it disappeared. <g>

It was on this list, March 24.

I was cleaning out the e-mail, and knew it was great, so I put it here:
http://sandradodd.com/t/learning (on an existing page in the TV
section, which begins http://sandradodd.com/tv and has some new art).

I was going to announce it to my subscription-to-site-news list and
didn't mean to send it here. But I'm not sorry. Good accident.

Problem is, I need several other small tales of something a kid
learned from TV. Could people here help me out? I'd love to fill up
that page.


Sarah is Sarah Anderson-Thimmes. She's on this list.

Here are some other things she wrote:
http://www.sandradodd.com/day/ebbandflow.html
http://www.sandradodd.com/beginning.html

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

"Problem is, I need several other small tales of something a kid
learned from TV. "

Yesterday, while I was getting ready for work, Dora the Explorer was
on while Jalen watched. I heard him speaking Spanish back to Dora
everytime she asked for help, it cracked me up.
He was even rolling his "r's" while saying "arriba" with Dora over and
over.

The kids and I have made some really fabulous connections over
Japanese Anime, something I would probably not learned about on my
own. They tell me about Japanese mythology and spirituality they've
picked up, why the artist uses certain facial features and the
symbology in it all.

Sierra loves the home improvement, fashion and cooking shows. She
wants to take a cooking class with me now and has decided she'll earn
money as a chef someday, simply being a chef at home for now.:)
We've had lengthy discussions spawned from the show "How do I Look?"
as to the damage that parents create when they don't honor their own
child's uniqueness. One Goth girl was on it and we were SO upset at
the parents I could hardly watch it.
This girl had designed her own clothing...very unique and creative,
and they were all over her about looking freaky. It was terribly sad.
We got something different from that show than you'd have thought.

Sierra told us how to cook a fish one night, in detail. She comes to
us with written recipes for things I've never heard of, craft projects
and is constantly looking up information online because of something
she heard or saw on tv.

Over the years, Trevor has learned a TON about various wars (mostly
the civil and WW11 though), weaponry and history from tv. I really
don't know where he learns most of what he learns now, only that when
he shares stuff with me it a bit strange because he's REALLY well
informed and intelligent, but he seems to spend most of his days on
World of Warcraft!!:)


Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Sandra Dodd

On May 3, 2006, at 7:45 AM, Ren Allen wrote:

> "Problem is, I need several other small tales of something a kid
> learned from TV. "
>
> Yesterday, while I was getting ready for work, Dora the Explorer was
> on while Jalen watched. ...

Thanks, Ren!

Joanne sent this (below) and now my page is all balanced. But I can
absolutely find places for other such sweet stories!

-=-I hadn't thought about this for a while but when I saw your post I
remembered. My youngest (7 years old) was having a conversation with
our neighbor (8 years old and in school) about space. Jacqueline is
VERY interested in space and what it takes to become an astronaut. She
She was telling our neighbor that she likes learning about space and
that she and her dad had just hung up a model of the solar system in
her room. This boy already thinks my kids are weird because they *like*
learning. LOL He said "I already finished learning about space in
school. We're done now". She started talking about Galileo's life and
different facts about the planets. He said "I told you we already
*finished* and now we're done. I don't have to remember it anymore. I
passed my test."

-=-When she came in I asked her where she learned about Galileo's
life and
how she knew such cool facts about the planets. She told me from,
Reading Rainbow and NOVA. :-) -=-

(Thanks, Joanne.)

http://sandradodd.com/t/learning

There they should be.
Sandra