sleeping
Ren Allen
">>Soon enough they will be, like, don't kiss me
I just wanted to say that this is not necessarily true...particularly
for unschoolers. I have three teenagers now and one almost teenager
(17, 15, 13, 11), and so far they have tolerated my kissing and
hugging publicly without issue, and have no problem with my presence
around them and their friends"
I have to second what Jacki shared. My 16y.o. came up to me at our
homeschool skate day last week, and gave me hugs more than once and
even rested his head on my shoulder as we sat off to the side at one
point.
Unschooled teens aren't much like their schooled counterparts on many
levels. It's really cool.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
>>mom, drop me off at the corner so no one sees me get out of the carmom, stuff like that.<<
I just wanted to say that this is not necessarily true...particularly
for unschoolers. I have three teenagers now and one almost teenager
(17, 15, 13, 11), and so far they have tolerated my kissing and
hugging publicly without issue, and have no problem with my presence
around them and their friends"
I have to second what Jacki shared. My 16y.o. came up to me at our
homeschool skate day last week, and gave me hugs more than once and
even rested his head on my shoulder as we sat off to the side at one
point.
Unschooled teens aren't much like their schooled counterparts on many
levels. It's really cool.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
debbiernoll
Hi, my name is Debbie and I am mom to 3 great kids ages 12, 10 and 6. I am relatively new to unschooling. We began homeschooling this year which very quickly turned into unschooling. I've read several John Holt books and spent hours reading the information on these websites. So much of what I've learned has been liberating and wonderful. As far as the "schooling" part of unschooling goes, things are great. I'm happy, the kids are happy and it's amazing to watch them learn and grow. However, I'm struggling with some of the areas that have to do with parenting and family life, in particular, bedtimes.
First, we eased up on bedtimes and then decided to try eliminating them altogether. Of all the concepts I've come across on here, I must admit, this was the one I was most skeptical about. I've seen tiny babies fight sleep for as long as their little eyes would stay open. But, since bedtimes seemed to take up my whole evening and led to a lot of tears, frustration and anger I thought this sounded like it would be better for everyone.
It's been close to two months and my husband and I are very frustrated. My 6 year old is the last one to bed every night, usually close to 1 a.m., and then sleeps most of the morning. I kind of enjoy the quiet in the morning but my husband, who goes to work, doesn't get any of that quiet. My son, 10, has been like clockwork his whole life, going to bed around the same time every night, no matter what we were doing, and getting up with the dawn. When we first started he was really good about knowing when he was tired and going to bed. Now he stays up until I go to bed but still gets up with the dawn and is wearing himself out. He's grumpy, doing poorly in baseball and too tired to drum for church on Sundays, something he loves and other people count on him for. The kids are all sleeping in bed with me and usually wait for me to go bed. My husband is sleeping in my daughter's room and most nights goes to bed before the rest of us. My husband and I never get to spend time together or talk to each other without constant interruption. We've tried telling them that we need some time together and that they need to find something quiet to do somewhere but we still end up interrupted and frustrated. I don't miss spending the whole night putting kids to bed but this just isn't working either. I'm not sure if we can continue this way. If anyone has any advice I would greatly appreciate it!
Thanks,
Debbie
First, we eased up on bedtimes and then decided to try eliminating them altogether. Of all the concepts I've come across on here, I must admit, this was the one I was most skeptical about. I've seen tiny babies fight sleep for as long as their little eyes would stay open. But, since bedtimes seemed to take up my whole evening and led to a lot of tears, frustration and anger I thought this sounded like it would be better for everyone.
It's been close to two months and my husband and I are very frustrated. My 6 year old is the last one to bed every night, usually close to 1 a.m., and then sleeps most of the morning. I kind of enjoy the quiet in the morning but my husband, who goes to work, doesn't get any of that quiet. My son, 10, has been like clockwork his whole life, going to bed around the same time every night, no matter what we were doing, and getting up with the dawn. When we first started he was really good about knowing when he was tired and going to bed. Now he stays up until I go to bed but still gets up with the dawn and is wearing himself out. He's grumpy, doing poorly in baseball and too tired to drum for church on Sundays, something he loves and other people count on him for. The kids are all sleeping in bed with me and usually wait for me to go bed. My husband is sleeping in my daughter's room and most nights goes to bed before the rest of us. My husband and I never get to spend time together or talk to each other without constant interruption. We've tried telling them that we need some time together and that they need to find something quiet to do somewhere but we still end up interrupted and frustrated. I don't miss spending the whole night putting kids to bed but this just isn't working either. I'm not sure if we can continue this way. If anyone has any advice I would greatly appreciate it!
Thanks,
Debbie
Sandra Dodd
-=-First, we eased up on bedtimes and then decided to try eliminating
them altogether-=-
Where did you get the idea that you should try to "eliminate" bedtimes
with a six year old? If it was from this list or from my website, I'd
like to put a note there to prevent other people from getting that idea.
If you got the idea from another list, maybe stop reading at that
other list. I know this list ends up helping people recover from bad
advice they've gotten elsewhere, but let's try to limit that damage.
Could someone please find the recent discussion on bedtimes? Joyce
wrote something really good. I need to go to sleep, or I'd look
myself. <g>
Joyce's site has some good ideas, too:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
I was criticized earlier this evening for providing links, with
answers. I'd like to discuss that too, but in a different topic.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
them altogether-=-
Where did you get the idea that you should try to "eliminate" bedtimes
with a six year old? If it was from this list or from my website, I'd
like to put a note there to prevent other people from getting that idea.
If you got the idea from another list, maybe stop reading at that
other list. I know this list ends up helping people recover from bad
advice they've gotten elsewhere, but let's try to limit that damage.
Could someone please find the recent discussion on bedtimes? Joyce
wrote something really good. I need to go to sleep, or I'd look
myself. <g>
Joyce's site has some good ideas, too:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
I was criticized earlier this evening for providing links, with
answers. I'd like to discuss that too, but in a different topic.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
On Mar 1, 2010, at 11:57 PM, debbiernoll wrote:
How this has happened for us has been through a process of talking to the boys about recognizing sleep signs, and recognizing the signs the next day of not-enough sleep. Yesterday, Eric woke up at 6 and couldn't get back to sleep; in the evening, he willingly went to bed around 8, because he felt tired and because, when I reminded him he'd already had one day of not enough sleep, he wanted to be sure he got enough rest. We parents take responsibility for getting the routine started: "Hey, let's get teeth brushed and then we can read our book!"
We have done this both by mentioning things directly to them ("You seem like you're having kind of a hard day...maybe it's because you didn't get much sleep last night.") and modeling ("I'm kind of cranky today...I didn't get as much sleep as usual last night").
We also have bedtime routines. We parents take responsibility for getting the routine started: "Hey, let's get teeth brushed and then we can read our book!" Right now, Carl's includes getting into our bed with his dad to read a book, and then cuddling with his dad until he falls asleep. In the past, his routine has included falling asleep on the couch watching a video with his dad, and then being carried in to bed later. Eric's routine includes brushing his teeth, which we help him remember and even help him do if he's feeling tired (he has asked us to do this because he gets fretful if he forgets to brush his teeth), and then me reading to him and his dad while they cuddle.
I don't think a casual observer watching us put the kids to bed would say, "Wow, they must be unschoolers." (Though I suppose questions like, "Do you want to change into pajamas, or sleep in what you're wearing?" would be hints). The difference is not whether we have routines we do at certain times of the evening, but how those routines evolved--cooperatively rather than a parent deciding what it should be--and how those times were decided on--based on when the kids get tired, helping them recognize their tiredness, realizing that Eric wasn't going to sleep in anymore so he couldn't just stay up late and make it up in the morning. In contrast, I hear other parents in my circle saying things like, "My kid has to be in bed by 8, because I need at least two hours to myself before I go to bed." Totally parent-driven, or, failing that, arbitrary.
We also lovingly acknowledge that it's sometimes hard to go to bed even when you're tired. Eric said to me the other night, "I'm tired, and I know I should go to bed, but I just don't feel like I'm done with today yet." I know that feeling! I give into it sometimes. I said, "Oh, I know, I feel just like that sometimes," and helped him figure out what we could do that might help him feel ready to say good-bye to that day. He stayed up a little bit past his usual time that night, doing something with his dad, until he felt ready to lie down.
Su
mom of Eric, 8; Carl, almost 6; Yehva, 2.5
> First, we eased up on bedtimes and then decided to try eliminating them altogether. <snip>We have never had "set" bedtimes for our kids, but our two oldest are on such a regular schedule that you'd never know it, and have been for awhile. Carl, who is 6, is usually asleep by 8, and Eric, who is 8, around 9.
> It's been close to two months and my husband and I are very frustrated.
How this has happened for us has been through a process of talking to the boys about recognizing sleep signs, and recognizing the signs the next day of not-enough sleep. Yesterday, Eric woke up at 6 and couldn't get back to sleep; in the evening, he willingly went to bed around 8, because he felt tired and because, when I reminded him he'd already had one day of not enough sleep, he wanted to be sure he got enough rest. We parents take responsibility for getting the routine started: "Hey, let's get teeth brushed and then we can read our book!"
We have done this both by mentioning things directly to them ("You seem like you're having kind of a hard day...maybe it's because you didn't get much sleep last night.") and modeling ("I'm kind of cranky today...I didn't get as much sleep as usual last night").
We also have bedtime routines. We parents take responsibility for getting the routine started: "Hey, let's get teeth brushed and then we can read our book!" Right now, Carl's includes getting into our bed with his dad to read a book, and then cuddling with his dad until he falls asleep. In the past, his routine has included falling asleep on the couch watching a video with his dad, and then being carried in to bed later. Eric's routine includes brushing his teeth, which we help him remember and even help him do if he's feeling tired (he has asked us to do this because he gets fretful if he forgets to brush his teeth), and then me reading to him and his dad while they cuddle.
I don't think a casual observer watching us put the kids to bed would say, "Wow, they must be unschoolers." (Though I suppose questions like, "Do you want to change into pajamas, or sleep in what you're wearing?" would be hints). The difference is not whether we have routines we do at certain times of the evening, but how those routines evolved--cooperatively rather than a parent deciding what it should be--and how those times were decided on--based on when the kids get tired, helping them recognize their tiredness, realizing that Eric wasn't going to sleep in anymore so he couldn't just stay up late and make it up in the morning. In contrast, I hear other parents in my circle saying things like, "My kid has to be in bed by 8, because I need at least two hours to myself before I go to bed." Totally parent-driven, or, failing that, arbitrary.
We also lovingly acknowledge that it's sometimes hard to go to bed even when you're tired. Eric said to me the other night, "I'm tired, and I know I should go to bed, but I just don't feel like I'm done with today yet." I know that feeling! I give into it sometimes. I said, "Oh, I know, I feel just like that sometimes," and helped him figure out what we could do that might help him feel ready to say good-bye to that day. He stayed up a little bit past his usual time that night, doing something with his dad, until he felt ready to lie down.
Su
mom of Eric, 8; Carl, almost 6; Yehva, 2.5
debbiernoll
***Where did you get the idea that you should try to "eliminate" bedtimes
with a six year old? If it was from this list or from my website, I'd
like to put a note there to prevent other people from getting that idea.***
It actually was from reading the different things about sleeping on your website. From what I understood, and I may be confused, it's trying to get to a point of them knowing their bodies, aware that sleep is important for them and making the choice to sleep when they're sleepy. Now I'm feeling more confused. So how does a family who never made their babies "cry it out", has had them in our bed more than their own, but has always had very strict bed times transition so that we can all have some peace?
with a six year old? If it was from this list or from my website, I'd
like to put a note there to prevent other people from getting that idea.***
It actually was from reading the different things about sleeping on your website. From what I understood, and I may be confused, it's trying to get to a point of them knowing their bodies, aware that sleep is important for them and making the choice to sleep when they're sleepy. Now I'm feeling more confused. So how does a family who never made their babies "cry it out", has had them in our bed more than their own, but has always had very strict bed times transition so that we can all have some peace?
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-First, we eased up on bedtimes and then decided to try eliminating
> them altogether-=-
>
> Where did you get the idea that you should try to "eliminate" bedtimes
> with a six year old? If it was from this list or from my website, I'd
> like to put a note there to prevent other people from getting that idea.
>
> If you got the idea from another list, maybe stop reading at that
> other list. I know this list ends up helping people recover from bad
> advice they've gotten elsewhere, but let's try to limit that damage.
>
> Could someone please find the recent discussion on bedtimes? Joyce
> wrote something really good. I need to go to sleep, or I'd look
> myself. <g>
>
> Joyce's site has some good ideas, too:
> http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
> http://sandradodd.com/sleeping
>
> I was criticized earlier this evening for providing links, with
> answers. I'd like to discuss that too, but in a different topic.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Michele K
I think I get so lazy in the late evening because of my personal natural rhythm (I'm a morning lark, not a night owl) and I often don't pay enough attention to the kids' sleepy signals. (Now that I'm no longer in the baby stage, when it was easy because they'd just crawl up and nurse to sleep). I let the kids play until they'd get fussy and it's obvious they are tired and we fussily go to bed. Now I'm trying to keep tuned in and, yes, watch the clock a bit. Not because we have a clock bedtime, but because I know that time flies when we're all engrossed in something and then suddenly it will be surprisingly late and we're getting grumpy.
Our routine has long been that we dim the lights at some point, we have a night time snack a bit later, and then we head upstairs, play a little, decide where to sleep (the kids often sleep in each other's rooms), brush, pee, read or watch a movie, winding down and falling asleep. It happens this way whenever I start it, but it's more joyful instead of fussy when I start it sooner.
Michele, mom of Rhiannon 8, Caroline 6, and Ian 3
Learning, Laughing, Snuggling, Scrapping
My Digital Scrapbook Pages
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Our routine has long been that we dim the lights at some point, we have a night time snack a bit later, and then we head upstairs, play a little, decide where to sleep (the kids often sleep in each other's rooms), brush, pee, read or watch a movie, winding down and falling asleep. It happens this way whenever I start it, but it's more joyful instead of fussy when I start it sooner.
Michele, mom of Rhiannon 8, Caroline 6, and Ian 3
Learning, Laughing, Snuggling, Scrapping
My Digital Scrapbook Pages
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<<< The kids are all sleeping in bed with me and usually wait for me to go
bed. My husband is sleeping in my daughter's room and most nights goes to
bed before the rest of us. My husband and I never get to spend time together
or talk to each other without constant interruption.>>>>
I think the magic word missing here is "arbitrary". Arbitrary and inflexible
bedtimes based on parents wanting to be in control are not recommended. I
believe the recommendation is to ease away from "sending" kids to bed on a
schedule even if they are wakeful, into helping kids go gently to sleep when
they are ready and stay quiet and calm if others are sleeping.
My observations are this:
Your kids are loving spending time with both their parents and as a family
in the evenings. Perhaps finally they are starting to feel like they are
getting to be part of the mysterious late night activities that used to go
on without them before when they were put unwillingly to bed with a long and
possibly tedious process.
Perhaps they haven't yet discovered how dull staying up for the sake of
staying up actually is, and that late night adult activity is just more
sitting around together doing more of whatever was going on earlier. Mystery
solved.
My advice - go to bed early yourself, making your bed a comfortable, dark
nest in there, at the first sign of sleepiness. Make sure everyone has had
their bedtime snack and invite all the kids in. Read, watch a pleasant tv
show, tell stories. Even if the 6yo hasn't joined you. (Bet he will.)
Here is the secret - you can get up for a while after they have drifted off.
If everyone is asleep, go snuggle up with your dh. I bet he wouldn't mind
some reasons for being woken.
Also the big piece of information that is missing here is whether the 6yo
feels safe and happy being up alone. Whether he is just quietly going about
his business, or whether he is creating a ruckus that prevents the others
from sleeping.
If the latter the first thing is to protect the other kid's and your dh's
sleep. Perhaps you can set your 6yo up with a nest, snacks and his game or
dvd in the living room or his own room, while you put the others to bed.
Perhaps you can make a special time together, just the two of you
afterwards. Perhaps your dh can make this his special time with his 6yo
while you are making special moments with the others.
My dh and I used to spend our time together in the morning before my dd got
up. These days he goes to work at 5.30am, so I just try to sit with him
whenever I can. Our mantra: It won't last forever.
They will continue to interrupt you because they want more connection with
both of you. For Jayn there are four kinds of time: "Time with me", "time
with daddy", "time with both of us" and other time (alone, with friends).
Perhaps with many kids there is also "time with everyone" added to the mix.
It won't last forever.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
bed. My husband is sleeping in my daughter's room and most nights goes to
bed before the rest of us. My husband and I never get to spend time together
or talk to each other without constant interruption.>>>>
I think the magic word missing here is "arbitrary". Arbitrary and inflexible
bedtimes based on parents wanting to be in control are not recommended. I
believe the recommendation is to ease away from "sending" kids to bed on a
schedule even if they are wakeful, into helping kids go gently to sleep when
they are ready and stay quiet and calm if others are sleeping.
My observations are this:
Your kids are loving spending time with both their parents and as a family
in the evenings. Perhaps finally they are starting to feel like they are
getting to be part of the mysterious late night activities that used to go
on without them before when they were put unwillingly to bed with a long and
possibly tedious process.
Perhaps they haven't yet discovered how dull staying up for the sake of
staying up actually is, and that late night adult activity is just more
sitting around together doing more of whatever was going on earlier. Mystery
solved.
My advice - go to bed early yourself, making your bed a comfortable, dark
nest in there, at the first sign of sleepiness. Make sure everyone has had
their bedtime snack and invite all the kids in. Read, watch a pleasant tv
show, tell stories. Even if the 6yo hasn't joined you. (Bet he will.)
Here is the secret - you can get up for a while after they have drifted off.
If everyone is asleep, go snuggle up with your dh. I bet he wouldn't mind
some reasons for being woken.
Also the big piece of information that is missing here is whether the 6yo
feels safe and happy being up alone. Whether he is just quietly going about
his business, or whether he is creating a ruckus that prevents the others
from sleeping.
If the latter the first thing is to protect the other kid's and your dh's
sleep. Perhaps you can set your 6yo up with a nest, snacks and his game or
dvd in the living room or his own room, while you put the others to bed.
Perhaps you can make a special time together, just the two of you
afterwards. Perhaps your dh can make this his special time with his 6yo
while you are making special moments with the others.
My dh and I used to spend our time together in the morning before my dd got
up. These days he goes to work at 5.30am, so I just try to sit with him
whenever I can. Our mantra: It won't last forever.
They will continue to interrupt you because they want more connection with
both of you. For Jayn there are four kinds of time: "Time with me", "time
with daddy", "time with both of us" and other time (alone, with friends).
Perhaps with many kids there is also "time with everyone" added to the mix.
It won't last forever.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Kristi
>>>My husband and I never get to spend time together or talk to each other without constant interruption.<<<Trying to find time with your DH is something the two of you will likely have to collaborate on. Be creative in your endeavor to find time together, it doesn't have to be "when the kids are in bed at night," and the possibilities may not be obvious. My husband and I have been working through this issue recently, and it takes a lot of flexibility. Sometimes we agree to wake early one or two mornings a week, so that we can have our own personal time while our girls are sleeping. My DH goes to bed early and wakes early, so mornings are easiest for him.
>>>We've tried telling them that we need some time together and that they need to find something quiet to do somewhere but we still end up interrupted and frustrated.<<<In my opinion, telling the kids that you need time together creates the situation where you'll end up frustrated and interrupted. It sends a message to them that they are less important to you during this time. Kids don't want to feel less important and will interrupt you in order to get their needs met. I think this is one of those situations where the adults should not put the burden of their adult needs on the kids' shoulders. Its sets them up to feel the responsibility and the blame if your DH and you are frustrated.
>>>I don't miss spending the whole night putting kids to bed but this just isn't working either. I'm not sure if we can continue this way.<<<I agree with what Robyn saidshe had some valuable suggestions. In our house, my 4-yr old will fall asleep on the couch anywhere from 8:30 to 10, depending on how the day was, and I'll carry her to bed. My 7-yr old will stay up until about 10 or 10:30 and then ask to go to bed. If she seems particularly tired, I'll ask her if she feels like going to bed, and many times the answer is yes. There are times when I'm particularly tired, and I tell her that I'd really like to be in bed before 10, and she is usually willing to go to bed, even if she's not 100% ready, and in this case we'll just turn on the TV and I'll hold her hand.
We've always all slept in the same roommy 4-year old in a twin bed bumped up right next to our King size bed, and our 7-yr old in with us (this is their own arrangement, sometimes it's vice versa). This past Sunday, they decided they wanted to move the twin bed to their room and start sleeping in their own room together. And this may be where I need to post my own question about sleep...so I'll do so in another post. :)
Sandra Dodd
-=-From what I understood, and I may be confused, it's trying to get
to a point of them knowing their bodies, aware that sleep is important
for them and making the choice to sleep when they're sleepy. Now I'm
feeling more confused. So how does a family who never made their
babies "cry it out", has had them in our bed more than their own, but
has always had very strict bed times transition so that we can all
have some peace?-=-
Gradually. One step at a time. Take a step, get stable, see how it
feels, see if your husband is okay with it, see how it's affecting the
kids; take another step (if you're liking the direction).
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
On that sleeping page, though ( http://sandradodd.com/sleeping ) I
found this readily:
------------
The biggest mistake I made in transitioning to radical unschooling was
that I didn't transition. I thought I needed to make a pronouncement
about bedtimes and food. I really didn't. I now, many years later, see
that I just needed to make MY shifts in seeing how to support them and
facilitate their lives�and then do it.
My son asked me, soon after we "stopped doing bedtimes" to please be
more present with bedtimes....
------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to a point of them knowing their bodies, aware that sleep is important
for them and making the choice to sleep when they're sleepy. Now I'm
feeling more confused. So how does a family who never made their
babies "cry it out", has had them in our bed more than their own, but
has always had very strict bed times transition so that we can all
have some peace?-=-
Gradually. One step at a time. Take a step, get stable, see how it
feels, see if your husband is okay with it, see how it's affecting the
kids; take another step (if you're liking the direction).
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
On that sleeping page, though ( http://sandradodd.com/sleeping ) I
found this readily:
------------
The biggest mistake I made in transitioning to radical unschooling was
that I didn't transition. I thought I needed to make a pronouncement
about bedtimes and food. I really didn't. I now, many years later, see
that I just needed to make MY shifts in seeing how to support them and
facilitate their lives�and then do it.
My son asked me, soon after we "stopped doing bedtimes" to please be
more present with bedtimes....
------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn L. Coburn
<<< This past Sunday, they decided they wanted to move the twin bed to their
room and start sleeping in their own room together. And this may be where I
need to post my own question about sleep>>>>
I'm going to pre-empt this with a suggestion.
If you could possibly manage a second bed (even just a mattress), rather
than moving the one in your room, you might find that you do less furniture
moving - to giving the new arrangement time to take.
We recently added a single bed for Jayn (now that she is so big) abutting
our King bed, and she liked the novelty at first. But now I am the one
sleeping in the extension/addition most nights.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
room and start sleeping in their own room together. And this may be where I
need to post my own question about sleep>>>>
I'm going to pre-empt this with a suggestion.
If you could possibly manage a second bed (even just a mattress), rather
than moving the one in your room, you might find that you do less furniture
moving - to giving the new arrangement time to take.
We recently added a single bed for Jayn (now that she is so big) abutting
our King bed, and she liked the novelty at first. But now I am the one
sleeping in the extension/addition most nights.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.Iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com