Arlynn Liebster

I read the CNN article posted and apparently the girl Nailah takes the local
public schools tests and therefore the public school apparently knows
exactly what the girl is learning from her test scores. I wonder why CNN
didn't disclose the test scores or what the subjects the tests she has taken
were on instead of ending the stupid piece by quoting the girl saying she
doesn't know what she is learning. If the adults in authority know what she
is learning, then why didn't they end the piece on how well she is doing?
Obviously there wasn't any failings or anything, or they would be screaming
loudly how she failed her tests, now wouldn't they???

Barbara Mullins

--- In [email protected], Arlynn Liebster <abfab@a...> wrote:
>
>
> I read the CNN article posted and apparently the girl Nailah takes
the local
> public schools tests and therefore the public school apparently knows
> exactly what the girl is learning from her test scores. I wonder why CNN
> didn't disclose the test scores or what the subjects the tests she
has taken
> were on instead of ending the stupid piece by quoting the girl
saying she
> doesn't know what she is learning. If the adults in authority know
what she
> is learning, then why didn't they end the piece on how well she is
doing?
> Obviously there wasn't any failings or anything, or they would be
screaming
> loudly how she failed her tests, now wouldn't they???
>
From what I can understand the program has been postponned until
Monday night 10EST or 9 Central time so I'm hoping to watch it then.
And yes I thought the posted article was scewed, how could she be
doing all the things listed and NOT be learning anything? Yet they
just took her statement that sounded kindof like a public schooled kid
would say when asked "What did you learn in school today?" and the
answer be "I don't know" or "Nothing". I'm interested in seeing the clip.

Elliot Temple

I am new here and I'm from the TCS list.

What are all the reasons you can think of not to go to University or
college?

-- Elliot Temple
http://www.curi.us/blog/

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 28, 2006, at 10:11 PM, Elliot Temple wrote:

> What are all the reasons you can think of not to go to University or
> college?

What are the reasons you are coming to different unschooling lists
asking such questions?

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elliot Temple

On Jan 28, 2006, at 11:10 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

>
> On Jan 28, 2006, at 10:11 PM, Elliot Temple wrote:
>
>> What are all the reasons you can think of not to go to University or
>> college?
>
> What are the reasons you are coming to different unschooling lists
> asking such questions?

Because unschooling (as well as homeschooling) should be movements
where I find at least some people who think university is bad. So
far, I haven't found that to be the case. If you can suggest a
better place to look, do tell.

-- Elliot Temple
http://www.curi.us/blog/

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 29, 2006, at 2:31 AM, Elliot Temple wrote:

>>> What are all the reasons you can think of not to go to University or
>>> college?
>>
>> What are the reasons you are coming to different unschooling lists
>> asking such questions?
>
> Because unschooling (as well as homeschooling) should be movements
> where I find at least some people who think university is bad. So
> far, I haven't found that to be the case. If you can suggest a
> better place to look, do tell.

Why are you looking for people who think universities are bad?

I have lots of things to say about universities - good and bad - but
I'm, quite honestly, suspicious of your motives. Are you an
unschooler? Do you have children? Are you considering unschooling
your own children?

We would object to you hijacking this list for your own purposes
unrelated to unschooling, Elliot. And we have no idea how you intend
to utilize the opinions you solicit here.

I suggest that if you are more upfront about your intentions that
maybe you'll get some good discussion going about how unschoolers
view universities.

-pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elliot Temple

On Jan 29, 2006, at 3:03 AM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

> Why are you looking for people who think universities are bad?

To find out their reasons. Maybe some will be good and I'll learn
something new. Maybe some will be bad and I'll learn something to
avoid.

> I suggest that if you are more upfront about your intentions that
> maybe you'll get some good discussion going about how unschoolers
> view universities.

I am a TCSer interested in ideas about University and education. I
don't know what else is relevant.

-- Elliot Temple
http://www.curi.us/blog/

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 29, 2006, at 3:31 AM, Elliot Temple wrote:

> Because unschooling (as well as homeschooling) should be movements
> where I find at least some people who think university is bad. So
> far, I haven't found that to be the case. If you can suggest a
> better place to look, do tell.


Elliot,
On Unschooling Discussion, of which I am a part owner, I asked
whether you had children and whether you were an unschooler.

On Always Learning, of which I am sole owner, I ask you again to
reveal your unschooling experience/status.

To come and tell us what unschooling SHOULD be as a movement is
somewhat of a tacky beginning. I've been unschooling since my 19
year old was five, and it has worked in wonderful ways I never
foresaw. I keep this list so that people can discuss unschooling.

"Do tell" has never been a polite response. I'm sorry unschooling
has disappointed you. I hope you're not trying to coerce people into
giving you negative information just because that's what you came for.

If you're looking for places where people think university is bad,
you will probably not find it in any movements concerning learning,
not even unschooling. You'll find it where people have found it for
a thousand years: among disaffected lower classes who couldn't
afford to go and so they declaim it as stupid and elitist. Check a
bowling alley or pool hall. Check a piercing parlor mid-day and ask
any school-age-looking folk there. Don't be surprised if you don't
find college educated people there, though.

My personal opinion:
The best reason not to go to a university would be lack of desire to go.
The worst reason to go would be that someone else was pressing you to
go upon pain of disownment.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 29, 2006, at 8:23 AM, Elliot Temple wrote:

>
> I am a TCSer interested in ideas about University and education. I
> don't know what else is relevant.


Being "a TCSer" is irrevant.
How are you involved with unschooling?


Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 29, 2006, at 8:23 AM, Elliot Temple wrote:

> > Why are you looking for people who think universities are bad?
>
> To find out their reasons. Maybe some will be good and I'll learn
> something new. Maybe some will be bad and I'll learn something to
> avoid.


Are you trying to decide whether to go to a university?

Why would you need to avoid other people's bad reasons for
something? Your clarifications are just stirring murkiness.

Sandra

Sarah

Elliot,

Are you looking for an excuse not to go to college?
Other options? Are you looking for ways to support
kids who don't want college?

I think there are lots of reasons not to go to
college. I think if you have no interest in college,
you shouldn't go. I think if you can learn the same
skills without going and you don't need the piece of
paper and you aren't craving that kind of social
environment, you shouldn't go.

I think trade or tech schools or studying on your own
are options that are equally valuable.

I was pretty young when I got my BA. Afterward, I
started three different advanced degrees as an
unmatriculated student: technical writing,
architecture and English lit. I didn't finish any of
them. I didn't need the advanced degree in technical
writing because I got a job doing it anyway. I didn't
finish English lit because I decided I didn't want to
teach (so I look up syllabi from time to time to read
without the report and writing and deadline pressure).
I got pregnant during the architecture pre-course
work. I decided I wanted to stay home. I am so glad
I got that choice!

I liked college, but it is not for everyone. At this
point, I don't really want to go back. I like
learning on my own. The money for a college education
could certainly be used to educate oneself in a
completely different way.

Lots of brilliant people never go to college. I like
to think about Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and others
who are financially successful without college.

There are also a lot of people who are financially
successful who did go to college.

As an unschooler, it is cool that college feels like
more of a choice and less like an obligation.

Sarah Anderson-Thimmes

--- Elliot Temple <curi@...> wrote:
>
> What are all the reasons you can think of not to go
> to University or
> college?
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Elliot Temple

On Jan 29, 2006, at 7:43 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> Elliot,
> On Unschooling Discussion, of which I am a part owner, I asked
> whether you had children and whether you were an unschooler.
>
> On Always Learning, of which I am sole owner, I ask you again to
> reveal your unschooling experience/status.

That's private.

>
> To come and tell us what unschooling SHOULD be as a movement is
> somewhat of a tacky beginning. I've been unschooling since my 19
> year old was five, and it has worked in wonderful ways I never
> foresaw. I keep this list so that people can discuss unschooling.
>
> "Do tell" has never been a polite response. I'm sorry unschooling
> has disappointed you. I hope you're not trying to coerce people into
> giving you negative information just because that's what you came for.
>
> If you're looking for places where people think university is bad,
> you will probably not find it in any movements concerning learning,
> not even unschooling.

Thank you, that's what I wanted to know.

-- Elliot Temple
http://www.curi.us/blog/


> You'll find it where people have found it for
> a thousand years: among disaffected lower classes who couldn't
> afford to go and so they declaim it as stupid and elitist. Check a
> bowling alley or pool hall. Check a piercing parlor mid-day and ask
> any school-age-looking folk there. Don't be surprised if you don't
> find college educated people there, though.
>
> My personal opinion:
> The best reason not to go to a university would be lack of desire
> to go.
> The worst reason to go would be that someone else was pressing you to
> go upon pain of disownment.

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 29, 2006, at 3:42 PM, Elliot Temple wrote:

> That's private.


Ah. Well. So is this list, to some extent.
It's for unschoolers.

Bye,

Sandra
listowner,
trapdoor operator

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 29, 2006, at 2:42 PM, Elliot Temple wrote:

>
>> Elliot,
>> On Unschooling Discussion, of which I am a part owner, I asked
>> whether you had children and whether you were an unschooler.
>>
>> On Always Learning, of which I am sole owner, I ask you again to
>> reveal your unschooling experience/status.
>
> That's private.

That's why some of us long ago lost interest in TCS - nobody shares
actual real experience.

Elliot - the very purpose of this list is to share what you think is
too private to share. We learn from each others' experiences and
ideas - not from theories spouted by people who may or may not have
any children or whose children may be axe murderers, for all we know.


This is the modern version of women (and some men, these days)
sharing words of advice and wisdom as they do their laundry together
in the river. Everybody would know each other and know each others'
kids and, most definitely, those whose kids are admired would be the
ones whose advice would be sought.

-pam




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

sam

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@S...> wrote:
> If you're looking for places where people think university is bad,
> you will probably not find it in any movements concerning learning,
> not even unschooling. You'll find it where people have found it for
> a thousand years: among disaffected lower classes who couldn't
> afford to go and so they declaim it as stupid and elitist. Check a
> bowling alley or pool hall. Check a piercing parlor mid-day and ask
> any school-age-looking folk there. Don't be surprised if you don't
> find college educated people there, though.


I'm trying to make sense of this whole bit. To me it just seems like
outright classist snobbery.
Is it unschooling to suggest such blanket accusations of the people
are being insulted here? And just who is the subject of this? Are we
looking down at the people who own/manage or are employed by these
businesses? Are we looking down at the customer base? Are we above
people without college degrees or those with piercings and tattoos?
This is a case, I hope, of someone not thinking through the words they
used/chose. I feely fairly reprasentative of the people described,
and while I could personally give a crap how people see me, it's still
insulting.

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 30, 2006, at 9:44 AM, sam wrote:

>
> I'm trying to make sense of this whole bit. To me it just seems like
> outright classist snobbery.
> Is it unschooling to suggest such blanket accusations of the people
> are being insulted here? And just who is the subject of this? Are we
> looking down at the people who own/manage or are employed by these
> businesses? Are we looking down at the customer base? Are we above
> people without college degrees or those with piercings and tattoos?
> This is a case, I hope, of someone not thinking through the words they
> used/chose. I feely fairly reprasentative of the people described,
> and while I could personally give a crap how people see me, it's still
> insulting.

==================

Is that a group of people known to wear their ivy league shirts or to
go and visit their kids in college in other states?


-=-Is it unschooling to suggest such blanket accusations of the people
are being insulted here?-=-

"Is it unschooling" isn't any sort of question to ask. Unschooling
isn't a religion, and you seem to be asking it as though you were
asking "Is it Christian to..." (and even that question is rarely a
question, but a church-lady kind of insult).

A man came here expecting unschoolers to badmouth universities.
The man expressed what seemed to be disgust with the idea that we
wouldn't meet his expectation.

He was in the wrong place.
My point was that if he wanted people who were anti-higher-education,
to go to places that were socially known NOT to be hotbeds of PhD
activity.

Let's not be dishonest about social realities.

-=- Are we above
people without college degrees or those with piercings and tattoos?-=-

Who's "we"?
Many of the people on this list have no college degrees. Many have
piercings and tattoos. Many don't. It's never an issue, because
we're dealing in ideas about natural learning, and about parenting.

Many of the people here have MAs and PhDs, but you don't see them on
this list going on about it, because it doesn't matter.

Unschooling works the same for anyone. Snobbishness about
universities, or the decrying of universities, is not an unschooling
issue. The man had come to the wrong place.

What matters on this list, what is valuable, is the ability to
contribute ideas that help other people unschool. The guy pressing
us to badmouth universities without being willing to tell us whether
he was an unschooling dad or not was dropped from the list. We're
not on his topic anymore. He needs to go elsewhere. A used
bookstore in a college town or an artsy coffee shop with an extensive
magazine section or an art gallery will NOT be the places he will
find anti-university sentiment in abundance. A clothing resale
shop that only hires severely punk/goth clerks would be a more likely
anti-higher-education source (in Albuquerque that would be Buffalo
Exchange <g>).

For the purposes of this list, as was pointed out to him, what is
important is respect for our children's choices, and giving them
freedom to choose, whether that choice is for higher education or not.

-=-I'm trying to make sense of this whole bit. To me it just seems like
outright classist snobbery. -=-

You must have made a guess about what class you think I am or am
from, then, to make that statement.
Maybe we should drop it and go back to talking about unschooling.

Sandra