Nanci K.

For those of you who have to comply by state requirements to
homeschool, how do you keep that separate of (even in your mind)
unschooling your kids? What I mean is, if you have to translate
things your kids are doing into Schooly language for state
assessments, or if you are required to do portfolios or other such
requirements, how do you keep that from emotionally and
psychologically affecting how you think about and view and talk
about learning and unschooling among your family? Also how do you
shield your kids from "interested officials" if it's necessary for
you or them to interact with them in some way? How do folks who
have testing requirements in their state deal with those? Do some
of you go under the radar?

I've asked some of this here before, but it's a continuing problem
for me given the requirements of this state and I'll be needing to
do out first leagally offical assessment this fall (given that
Thomas is now over 8 yrs, our compulsory age in WA) and I want to
not let this affect how they interact with the world and go about
learning things, nor how I am able to think about it myself.

I've been trying to keep a small notebook journal of what they are
doing and label it with different "subject" headings so that I can
remember all they did when I have to write out a year end
assessment. But it's hard to pull my head out of whatever fun thing
they or we are doing and translate that into schoolish language at
any given moment, even without them knowning anyting about what I'm
doing. I tend to forget to do it, which I think is an unconsiously
defensive "forgetting" because it doesn't feel nice to do it.

Mary Ellen, I saved the information you had sent me previously about
your assessments and intend to use that as a model this fall, so
thanks again for that information.

Nanci K.

Krystal French

Hi Nanci,

I am new to this group and fairly new to unschooling although not to homeschooling. I would love to see what Mary Ellen has shared if she doesn't mind. :-)

We live if Florida which requires a year-end evaluation. I have been very, very careful to choose an evaluator that is extremely child-friendly. She does not unschool but she does homeschool and is very accepting of different views. Of course, it helps that my boys are scoring extremely well each year. :-)

My youngest has always been homeschooled and the last few years we have been leaning more and more to unschooling from necessity since I have been a single mom with two jobs. The longer we do child-led learning the more Daniel shows me that I should trust him to know what he needs to learn. I love his curiosity!

This week we did his yearly evaluation which is an individual test that is done in part verbally and in part written with the evaluator. I am able to sit next to Daniel and observe everything that he does so that I can see where he is strong in his abilities and where he is still learning.

There were several problems that he knew how to do but he missed them because he was not familiar with the way the question was asked. However, our evaluator was very good about going back after each segment of questions and answering any questions that Daniel had so that the evaluation ended up being an awesome learning experience for all of us. Daniel told the evaluator how he figured all the math in his head. Some of the problems were difficult for the evaluator and me to do on paper. LOL

Last year he scored well enough to go from 1st to 3rd grade so this year I had prepared all of us for a smaller improvement. However, Daniel blew us all away with another big jump. His reading is on an 8th grade level and math and spelling on a 6th grade level. He asked if he could be in 5th grade and when I asked him why he needed to have a grade level he said it was because people asked him all the time what grade he is in. We will be having a discussion about grade levels and what they are used for. :-) Definately not useful in our homeschool because we school year-round and just keep learning everyday.

The other requirements for Florida are a portfolio and a list of books that are read and/or used for educational purposes. The list is easy enough, we just write down all the info of each book we read or use to learn about our interests.

The portfolio is a little harder but I have the philosphy that as a former private and public school teacher, I never kept everything that each child in my classroom did so why should I keep everything my own child does.

I just choose projects that give an overall view of what we do. Like today, we were on the city bus and Daniel was reading the book, Eldest, so I took a picture of him to add to his portfolio which is becoming more and more like a scrapbook. :-) It contains pictures of Daniel participating at library bookclubs, digging in the sand and exploring tidepools at the beach, visiting the aquarium and zoo, taking science classes with his friends, cooking with his brother, measuring the wall to see if it is long enough for his piano to be moved against it, learning fencing moves because he loves the swordfights in his latest book that he is reading, etc.

Everything we do on any given day is a learning experience. We recently went to see a full-size replica of the Nina, one of the boats that Christopher Columbus sailed. What a way to explore some history hands-on! We were able to board the ship and explore everything. It was awesome and made for a wonderful photo op for the portfolio.

I hope this helps you a little but since I don't know what your requirements are, it may not. :-) I think the most important thing is to be positive about all your child is doing.

My favorite thought is: I KNOW that Daniel is getting a better education than he would be getting in the school system so... if anyone questions me about what is appropriate and what isn't for his education, I turn the tables and ask them some really tough questions about what the school system offers. What would he be getting in the school system that would be any better? Can they guarantee me that my child would be better treated or better repected as a person? Can they guarantee me that he will learn more than he is right now?? I KNOW the answer would be a resounding "no!" so I feel very confident that Daniel and I are meeting our obligations where his education is concerned.

Sorry this was so long. :-) Have a good weekend. Krystal




"Nanci K." <aisliin@...> wrote:
For those of you who have to comply by state requirements to
homeschool, how do you keep that separate of (even in your mind)
unschooling your kids? What I mean is, if you have to translate
things your kids are doing into Schooly language for state
assessments, or if you are required to do portfolios or other such
requirements, how do you keep that from emotionally and
psychologically affecting how you think about and view and talk
about learning and unschooling among your family? Also how do you
shield your kids from "interested officials" if it's necessary for
you or them to interact with them in some way? How do folks who
have testing requirements in their state deal with those? Do some
of you go under the radar?

I've asked some of this here before, but it's a continuing problem
for me given the requirements of this state and I'll be needing to
do out first leagally offical assessment this fall (given that
Thomas is now over 8 yrs, our compulsory age in WA) and I want to
not let this affect how they interact with the world and go about
learning things, nor how I am able to think about it myself.

I've been trying to keep a small notebook journal of what they are
doing and label it with different "subject" headings so that I can
remember all they did when I have to write out a year end
assessment. But it's hard to pull my head out of whatever fun thing
they or we are doing and translate that into schoolish language at
any given moment, even without them knowning anyting about what I'm
doing. I tend to forget to do it, which I think is an unconsiously
defensive "forgetting" because it doesn't feel nice to do it.

Mary Ellen, I saved the information you had sent me previously about
your assessments and intend to use that as a model this fall, so
thanks again for that information.

Nanci K.






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Sandra Dodd

On Jan 14, 2006, at 4:20 PM, Nanci K. wrote:

> it's hard to pull my head out of whatever fun thing
> they or we are doing and translate that into schoolish language at
> any given moment, even without them knowning anyting about what I'm
> doing. I tend to forget to do it, which I think is an unconsiously
> defensive "forgetting" because it doesn't feel nice to do it.

Can't you do it after they go to sleep, or early in the morning?
It's very likely that if you talk to unschoolers in your state (on a
local list) they'll have lots of ideas and shortcuts they've
developed, and it's likely you're thinking you need to do more than
necessary in any case.


Sandra

queenjane555

--- In [email protected], "Nanci K." <aisliin@y...>
>
> I've been trying to keep a small notebook journal of what they are
> doing and label it with different "subject" headings so that I can
> remember all they did when I have to write out a year end
> assessment.

I had considered doing this just for my own self, but quickly
realized it would drive me crazy to catagorize something
by "subject"...where would videogames fit in?! To much of what we do
could fall into EVERY subject (or none at all)so how would i even do
that?

What i thought might be neat, though, would just to take a lot of
pictures (digital cameras are great for this). My camera even has a
video function so i can take little movies too. I recently watched
some "interviews" i did of Seamus last January, so cool to see how
much he's changed. So you could take a couple pics of whatever they
do whether its some cool Lego construction, or baking cookies, or a
walk in the park, or a museum visit...and maybe at some point
compile a scrapbook. Then, if you HAD to make a list for your state
requirements (if a scrapbook wouldnt count as a portfolio),you could
just do it at the end of the year, and not drive yourself crazy
throughout the year. And taking pictures or making a scrapbook would
be more about preserving precious family memories for the future,
and less about figuring out what subject "fits" in order to please
some school official.


Katherine

[email protected]

Thank you Krystal for your reply to Nanci. I found it very helpful. I would also like to see what "Mary Ellen has shared " to see if I can learn from it , too....
Making my way,

Lisa

--- Krystal French <books4life2@...> wrote:

From: Krystal French <books4life2@...>
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:19:41 -0800 (PST)
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Meeting State Requirements
Hi Nanci,

I am new to this group and fairly new to unschooling although
not to homeschooling. I would love to see what Mary Ellen has
shared if she doesn't mind. :-)

We live if Florida which requires a year-end evaluation. I
have been very, very careful to choose an evaluator that is
extremely child-friendly. She does not unschool but she does
homeschool and is very accepting of different views. Of course,
it helps that my boys are scoring extremely well each year. :-)

My youngest has always been homeschooled and the last few
years we have been leaning more and more to unschooling from
necessity since I have been a single mom with two jobs. The
longer we do child-led learning the more Daniel shows me that I
should trust him to know what he needs to learn. I love his
curiosity!

This week we did his yearly evaluation which is an
individual test that is done in part verbally and in part
written with the evaluator. I am able to sit next to Daniel and
observe everything that he does so that I can see where he is
strong in his abilities and where he is still learning.

There were several problems that he knew how to do but he
missed them because he was not familiar with the way the
question was asked. However, our evaluator was very good about
going back after each segment of questions and answering any
questions that Daniel had so that the evaluation ended up being
an awesome learning experience for all of us. Daniel told the
evaluator how he figured all the math in his head. Some of the
problems were difficult for the evaluator and me to do on
paper. LOL

Last year he scored well enough to go from 1st to 3rd grade
so this year I had prepared all of us for a smaller
improvement. However, Daniel blew us all away with another big
jump. His reading is on an 8th grade level and math and
spelling on a 6th grade level. He asked if he could be in 5th
grade and when I asked him why he needed to have a grade level
he said it was because people asked him all the time what grade
he is in. We will be having a discussion about grade levels and
what they are used for. :-) Definately not useful in our
homeschool because we school year-round and just keep learning
everyday.

The other requirements for Florida are a portfolio and a list
of books that are read and/or used for educational purposes.
The list is easy enough, we just write down all the info of
each book we read or use to learn about our interests.

The portfolio is a little harder but I have the philosphy
that as a former private and public school teacher, I never
kept everything that each child in my classroom did so why
should I keep everything my own child does.

I just choose projects that give an overall view of what we
do. Like today, we were on the city bus and Daniel was reading
the book, Eldest, so I took a picture of him to add to his
portfolio which is becoming more and more like a scrapbook. :-)
It contains pictures of Daniel participating at library
bookclubs, digging in the sand and exploring tidepools at the
beach, visiting the aquarium and zoo, taking science classes
with his friends, cooking with his brother, measuring the wall
to see if it is long enough for his piano to be moved against
it, learning fencing moves because he loves the swordfights in
his latest book that he is reading, etc.

Everything we do on any given day is a learning experience.
We recently went to see a full-size replica of the Nina, one of
the boats that Christopher Columbus sailed. What a way to
explore some history hands-on! We were able to board the ship
and explore everything. It was awesome and made for a wonderful
photo op for the portfolio.

I hope this helps you a little but since I don't know what
your requirements are, it may not. :-) I think the most
important thing is to be positive about all your child is
doing.

My favorite thought is: I KNOW that Daniel is getting a
better education than he would be getting in the school system
so... if anyone questions me about what is appropriate and what
isn't for his education, I turn the tables and ask them some
really tough questions about what the school system offers.
What would he be getting in the school system that would be any
better? Can they guarantee me that my child would be better
treated or better repected as a person? Can they guarantee me
that he will learn more than he is right now?? I KNOW the
answer would be a resounding "no!" so I feel very confident
that Daniel and I are meeting our obligations where his
education is concerned.

Sorry this was so long. :-) Have a good weekend. Krystal




"Nanci K." <aisliin@...> wrote:
For those of you who have to comply by state requirements to
homeschool, how do you keep that separate of (even in your
mind)
unschooling your kids? What I mean is, if you have to
translate
things your kids are doing into Schooly language for state
assessments, or if you are required to do portfolios or other
such
requirements, how do you keep that from emotionally and
psychologically affecting how you think about and view and talk
about learning and unschooling among your family? Also how do
you
shield your kids from "interested officials" if it's necessary
for
you or them to interact with them in some way? How do folks
who
have testing requirements in their state deal with those? Do
some
of you go under the radar?
I've asked some of this here before, but it's a continuing
problem
for me given the requirements of this state and I'll be needing
to
do out first leagally offical assessment this fall (given that
Thomas is now over 8 yrs, our compulsory age in WA) and I want
to
not let this affect how they interact with the world and go
about
learning things, nor how I am able to think about it myself.
I've been trying to keep a small notebook journal of what they
are
doing and label it with different "subject" headings so that I
can
remember all they did when I have to write out a year end
assessment. But it's hard to pull my head out of whatever fun
thing
they or we are doing and translate that into schoolish language
at
any given moment, even without them knowning anyting about what
I'm
doing. I tend to forget to do it, which I think is an
unconsiously
defensive "forgetting" because it doesn't feel nice to do it.
Mary Ellen, I saved the information you had sent me previously
about
your assessments and intend to use that as a model this fall,
so
thanks again for that information.
Nanci K.
SPONSORED LINKS
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Parenting magazine Single parenting

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---------------------------------
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Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events,
holidays, whatever.
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__________________________________________________________

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* Visit your group "AlwaysLearning" on the web.

* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
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_____________________________________________________________
Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

Pamela Sorooshian

This list isn't the place to get into details about complying with
state laws-- each state is too specific.

To take Nanci's state/situation as an example -- if you do some
googling, you'll quickly discover an organization (FLO - Family
Learning Organization) in Washington State that provides services to
unschoolers in that state to help them meet the state requirements
with the minimal amount of intrusion. This is a state that requires
either annual standardized testing or a assessment by a certified
person. BUT - this organization considers the parent to be a
qualified proctor - so if you want to test, you can do it yourself.
If you want to do the alternative kind of assessment, the PARENT does
it - the organization provides forms for you to use and signs them
and submits them.

To go into more details about what people in Washington need to do
wouldn't be helpful to most of the almost 1,000 people on this list.


To respond to the general question about recordkeeping - what I'd
recommend is keeping your notes in a form NOT broken down by school
subject. Keep track of things like: Listening, Watching, Talking,
Looking, Playing, Making, Visiting, and so on. Then once a month or
however often you absolutely HAVE to - go through and translate some
of that into school subjects. So you might have written down:
"Visiting - went to hands-on children's museum. Spent a lot of time
on the stop-action movie-making stuff." Then you're filling out some
form for the state and that could go under science or art, for
example. Your records are not in the form of school subjects, so you
don't have to be in that frame of mind very often AND you can put
things under whatever category you need to when you DO translate them
into school subjects.

There is an "Unschoolers Recordkeeping Form" in the files area of the
UnschoolingDiscussion yahoogroups list which gives more details/ideas
along these lines.

-pam



On Jan 14, 2006, at 3:20 PM, Nanci K. wrote:

> I've asked some of this here before, but it's a continuing problem
> for me given the requirements of this state and I'll be needing to
> do out first leagally offical assessment this fall (given that
> Thomas is now over 8 yrs, our compulsory age in WA) and I want to
> not let this affect how they interact with the world and go about
> learning things, nor how I am able to think about it myself.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 14, 2006, at 4:19 PM, Krystal French wrote:

> We live if Florida which requires a year-end evaluation.

Not true. You have another option that is better for Floridian
radical unschoolers.

Krystal - you can join an umbrella school. There are free or very
inexpensive and all you do is register and send in an attendance
report. NO learning records or testing or anything. Total absolute
and complete privacy.

Unschoolers need to spend some time googling and talking to other
unschoolers in their own states. There are often ways around what
appear to be intrusive requirements.

I have a contact for you: <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
FloridaUnschoolers/>.

Found this by googling the obvious words "Florida" and "Unschooling"
and "unschoolers."

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

I'd be happy to discuss this off-list at nellebelle@.... I'm in WA state. There is a list that unschoolers in WA may enjoy - [email protected]. It would be a good place to have an in depth discussion of this topic.

Even before I began to homeschool I kept a standard wall calendar to keep track of activities and appointments. When I do the evaluation, I refer to my calendar to jog my memory. We certainly don't have to account for every moment of our child's life.

Although I do sometimes think "oh that is (fill in the subject)" when I am with my kids, I find that way of thinking is so limiting, and rarely relevant outside of school. Right now Jackie is playing SIMS on the computer beside me. I could find a way to link her activity to each of the "subjects". But she is not doing subjects. She is playing a game.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nanci Kuykendall

>Can't you do it after they go to sleep, or early in
the >morning?

No, can't do that. They keep me up longer than I want
to be until I fall down in bed and they get up with me
in the morning or even a little before me. They are
not yet able to get their own food much and need help
getting dressed as well. They both have problems
sleeping and don't sleep enough, Thomas in particular,
and neither of them can get to sleep unless everything
is just so and I am in bed with them. I have to do it
when they are awake and when I am with them, as I am
almost never not with them. It doesn't have to be
when we are doing something together though.

>It's very likely that if you talk to unschoolers in
your state >(on a local list) they'll have lots of
ideas and shortcuts they've developed, and it's likely
you're thinking you need to >do more than necessary in
any case.
>Sandra

No, taht's not very likely. WA is one of the more
requirement heavy states. I know the laws for this
state, and I have talked to other homeschoolers and
unschoolers in this state about it before. I know
what I have to do, what my options are, and ways to
try to keep the kids out of it as much as possible,
but the questions I had were how to help me keep that
separate in my mind and heart from our unschooling and
my kids lives, and not let that schoolish translation
stuff creep into my life or theirs. I also know that
if I don't write it down in a timely manner, I *will*
forget and be struggling even more when I have to
write out the evaluation and get it approved.

Nanci K.

Nanci Kuykendall

>This list isn't the place to get into details about
complying >with state laws-- each state is too
specific.

Right, that wasn't what I was looking for.

>To respond to the general question about
recordkeeping - .... >Your records are not in the form
of school subjects, so you >don't have to be in that
frame of mind very often AND you can >put things under
whatever category you need to when you DO >translate
them into school subjects.

Thank you Pam, this is a helpful suggestion. One of
the problems I have been having is deciding where in
the hell to put things, under which "subjects" when I
am jotting down a notation about an activity. I mean,
everything can be placed in so many category boxes if
you really want to box things, which I don't, that I'm
never really sure what goes where, as Mary Ellen said.
With your suggestion however, I can kind of balance
out the activities listed out over time in terms of
making sure each "subject" has plenty of things listed
under it. There are 11 Subjects we are required to
cover in WA (occupational education, science,
mathematics, language, social studies, history,
health, reading, writing, spelling, and the
development of an appreciation of art and music.) So
if I for instance might have put something under
Science but it can also be put under Social Studies or
Health I can put it there instead if Science is
already adequately represented. Bleh. It also as you
said helps me not to have to think in schooly terms
all the time. Thanks.

This part of the law scares me, in order to be
considered Home Based Instruction it "must consist of
planned and supervised instructional and related
educational activities including curriculum and
instruction in the basic skills, (and it must be
provided for a number of hours equivalent to the total
annual program hours per grade level established for
approved private schools," and "If it is determined
that the child is not making reasonable progress
consistent with his or her age or stage of
development, the parent shall make a good-faith effort
to remedy any deficiency."

Now, I know how to compensate or translate in an
unschooling way for most of that, I hope, and the law
does make mention of liberally construing time and
instructional methods because of the "experiential
nature of homeschooling" so that's pretty much all ok,
but my kids are not up to par "consistent with his or
her age or stage of development" (whatever that means)
because they have some different challenges. If I
don't make use of labels, I have to hope that their
assessments don't get rejected because they are not
doing what they are "supposed to be" doing given their
ages. For years I considered not registering at all
to avoid having to do this labeling and explaining why
they are where they are developmentally (as if I know
*why* they are where they are, but you know what I
mean.) At any rate, I need to maintain my unschooling
mindset, but still have the assessments approved so we
don't get harassed.

>There is an "Unschoolers Recordkeeping Form in the
files area >of the UnschoolingDiscussion yahoogroups
list which gives more >details/ideas along these
lines.

Thanks Pam, I'll check that out.

Nanci K.

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 15, 2006, at 7:48 PM, Nanci Kuykendall wrote:

> . There are 11 Subjects we are required to
> cover in WA (occupational education, science,
> mathematics, language, social studies, history,
> health, reading, writing, spelling, and the
> development of an appreciation of art and music.) So
> if I for instance might have put something under
> Science but it can also be put under Social Studies or
> Health I can put it there instead if Science is
> already adequately represented.

================

You can count one hour under two subjects. You don't have to pick
one or the other.

-=-
This part of the law scares me, in order to be
considered Home Based Instruction it "must consist of
planned and supervised instructional and related
educational activities including curriculum and
instruction in the basic skills, (and it must be
provided for a number of hours equivalent to the total
annual program hours per grade level established for
approved private schools," and "If it is determined
that the child is not making reasonable progress
consistent with his or her age or stage of
development, the parent shall make a good-faith effort
to remedy any deficiency." -=-

If that seems more important to you than the principles of
unschooling, then do it to look more like the law. That's fine, but
this isn't a good list to discuss it on.

If your family stays intact and the kids aren't abused, you won't be
asked. That legalese will come into play only if there's social
action or a legal challenge, such as a custody dispute. The vast
majority of homeschoolers just do school at home, and you can too if
you want to.

-=-but my kids are not up to par "consistent with his or
her age or stage of development" (whatever that means)
because they have some different challenges.-=-

Are they up to what special ed kids their age would be doing if they
were at school? Maybe look into that.

-=-If I
don't make use of labels, I have to hope that their
assessments don't get rejected because they are not
doing what they are "supposed to be" doing given their
ages.-=-

If you're going to be following all the curriculum-based state
formats, you SHOULD use labels so you can get exceptions.

In discussions about unschooling and natural learning, theyr'e not as
useful.

-=-. For years I considered not registering at all
to avoid having to do this labeling and explaining why
they are where they are developmentally (as if I know
*why* they are where they are, but you know what I
mean.) -=-

Every choice we make affects what our future choices will be. If
registering seems good, you might just need to go in another
direction than pure radical unschooling. But unschooling within
the parameters of your registration and all is still a doable thing,
it's just not going to be the full-on unschooling I'd like for this
list to be about.

There are lots of excuses and many good reasons for people to decide
radical unschooling won't work.

Sandra

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This part of the law scares me, in order to be
considered Home Based Instruction it "must consist of
planned and supervised instructional and related
educational activities including>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

blah, blah, blah...

I do this backwards. My child did "x" activity. When I do the assessment I categorize that under "z" subject. The powers that be have no idea whether I planned the activity in advance of its occurrence, or not.

The powers that be will most likely never see the assessment anyway.

Relax! Washington state has plenty of unschoolers meeting the legal requirements and probably quite a few under the radar. It really is not a big deal. Really!

Do a Google search for Kathleen McCurdy. She started FLO, (and was also one of the people involved in forming WA state's homeschooling laws), then sold it and is now remarried and living in South America.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>I know the laws for this
state, and I have talked to other homeschoolers and
unschoolers in this state about it before.>>>>>>>>

Nanci,

Did you get the emails I sent you off list?

Mary Ellen
in Washington State

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nanci Kuykendall

>You can count one hour under two subjects. You don't
have to >pick one or the other.

Hmm...true...but I will still have to balance it some.
Good suggestion though.

>If that seems more important to you than the
principles of
>unschooling, then do it to look more like the law.
That's >fine, but this isn't a good list to discuss it
on.

It doesn't seem more important to me. It's what the
law says. I don't like it, and I wish it said a whole
lot less about homeschooling so we could be left more
to our own devices. My concern is trying to maintain
our unschooling home while not running afoul of the
law. It's not so much the mechanics of abiding the
spirit of the law if not the letter, but the
unschooling principles and philosophies that get
smudged or stepped on by my having to toe that line.
It's adds more aggravation and effort to my life to
have to live in two worlds in my head like that, but I
do believe that unschooling is worth it. I was just
looking for support and advice from others on walking
that line. If I ask this question on State
homeschooling lists, I will get a range of
school-at-home type answers about curriculums and
such, or details about state requirements, and that's
not at all what I am looking for.

>If your family stays intact and the kids aren't
abused, you >won't be asked.

That's not necessarily true. If I need to take Thomas
for therapy or medication (there is a possibility we
will have to break down and get him some med. to
prevent aggression and violence as he gets older and
bigger although we're working hard to avoid that) than
they will very likely ("they" being Dr.s and other
officials who work with state Mental/Physical Health
programs) will be intrusive about our homeschooling,
and about a lot of other aspects of our lives, and
there might be problems, if our previous run ins with
such officials or the experience of others we know in
this area is any indication. There are more ways to
come to the attention of officials than divorce or
abuse.

>The vast majority of homeschoolers just do school at
home, and >you can too if you want to.

I never said that I wanted to do that. In fact I said
a number of times that I didn't want to do that. I
wouldn't have these questions or concerns if I wanted
to do that. We unschool. We want to unschool.

>Are they up to what special ed kids their age would
be doing if >they were at school? Maybe look into
that.

Look into what? Putting them in school? That's not
what they or I want to do. I am not aware of special
caveats in the law for homeschoolers with "special
needs" if that's what youmeant, although I have been
asking around for years, and there is not anything
specific about it in the RCW (the legal code) which
addresses homeschooling. I am not interested in
registering my children with distance learning through
schools, an IEP, or a similar program either.

I frankly don't care for ourselves what their "level"
or whatever is compared to other kids, I am only
concerned about it with regards to getting assessments
approved without being harrassed, as the assessments
do care. I want to be prepared in that event. Maybe
I will find the assessor is not so picky and we won't
have a concern, in which case I will be relieved and
pleasantly surprised. But if it turns out otherwise,
I want to have some preparedness for that contingency.

>If you're going to be following all the
curriculum-based state
>formats, you SHOULD use labels so you can get
exceptions.

What do you mean "If you're going to be following all
the curriculum-based state formats"? I don't
understand what you mean. Do you mean as opposed to
going "under the radar" and not registering with the
state as a legal homeschooler? We won't be using a
curriculum as they would likely define it, but the
assessment requires that I write it out that way.

>If registering seems good, you might just need to go
in another >direction than pure radical unschooling.

Registering doesn't seem good, it seems intrusive and
big brotherish. But registration is a legal
requirement, at least if I want to obey the law. I
could not get anyone (WA homeschoolers, WA
unschoolers, FLO, school and state officals, and
others over the years) to discuss with me
pragmatically what the legal realities of not
registering would be, as in - what *could* they really
ever do to me if I didn't register and it came to
someone's attention later at some point? Maybe I
should have put a lawyer on retainer just to get them
to answer that question realistically for me, but that
seemed a bit extreme. Also since we're in such a very
rural area we can't just be invisible in the crowd,
trusting our anonymity to protect us. Our school
district rep knows by name, face and family
associations who is homeschooling, so not registering
means we could never get involved in local activities
which might involve the school or be at the school or
that we'd have to lie about being registered, and all
sorts of other sticky possibilities (the one k-12
school is a hub of local activity whether it's
officially school related or not at all.) Everyone
knows everyone. For example the local 4-H coordinator
for the entire county is a neighbor who also has
worked in the school district and has many connections
there still and is very pro schoolishness.

>But unschooling within the parameters of your
registration and >all is still a doable thing, it's
just not going to be the full->on unschooling I'd like
for this list to be about.

I don't think that's true necessarily. It's not
helpful to me at any rate to recieve "Oh well,
according to your state laws you just can't be a
radical unschooler, sorry." as an answer to my
questions. That isn't what I was asking at any rate,
whether it was possible. I know it's entirely
possible. I just have an additional bump in my
homeschooling road (the entirely not mutable, real and
solid issue of autism) and was asking for advice on
keeping this legal aspect from impacting our
unschooling lives negatively by affecting my
unschooling mindset. I was asking others who have to
do this legal hoop jumping, no matter what the state
or specifics of their requierments, for advice on how
they let it roll off their proverbial duck's back of
unschooling serenity. I also want to thank all the
radically unschooling people who are registered in WA
state or other requirement heavy states who are
contacting me offlist about this issue.

>There are lots of excuses and many good reasons for
people to >decide radical unschooling won't work.
>Sandra

That's your advice for maintaining unschooling purity
or serentiy or what have you in the face of this
obstacle?

Nanci K.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 16, 2006, at 1:13 PM, Nanci Kuykendall wrote:

> I don't think that's true necessarily. It's not
> helpful to me at any rate to recieve "Oh well,
> according to your state laws you just can't be a
> radical unschooler, sorry." as an answer to my
> questions.

You've gotten a whole lot MORe than that Nanci, but it is feeling
like you're ignoring it.

I know a lot of people who have unschooled, radically unschooled, in
Washington.

I know that people have written offlist to you to give you
information, too.

I know people all over the country who take some notes here and there
throughout the day - just jotting down what they are doing. Once a
month they sit down with their notes and fill out the required forms,
or write up something in a format acceptable to their evaluator.

We were in a charter program for a few months and during that time I
made up the "Unschooler's Recordkeeping Form." I printed a bunch of
them and put them in a binder which sat out on a counter with a pen.
When I was cooking, usually, or while waiting for something to heat
up in the microwave or for a cup of tea to steep - I'd just quickly
glance at the page and it would remind me to write something down.
The kids are doing something ALL the time - you can't keep records of
all their learning. I'd write: "Talked about what kind of bird was on
our patio," or "Played new game - By Jove," or whatever I could
remember that we'd done that day. If it had been a few days since I'd
jotted down a note, I'd think back whether there was anything
especially cool - like a visit to a museum or a walk in the woods -
to write down.

Once a month I'd go find a quiet place for half an hour or an hour
and translate the stuff I'd written down into something to say under
each subject area required to be covered.

My understanding, though, Nanci, is that if you use FLO, you don't
even have to meet with an evaluator - they just give you the forms.
They consider you the expert and they take your word for whatever you
put down.

You seem to be a person who takes things extremely literally and I
think this is causing you to be a lot more concerned about all this
than you need to be.

Instead of taking this stuff so literally, others of us take it as a
hoop to jump through by doing the minimum that will be accepted.

ALL you need is to write up just enough that your evaluator will sign
off on it. That makes you legal. No doctor is going to question that.

So - I'm asking directly. Do you have the forms from FLO? Do you know
what THEY ask you to write down?

You can't just talk to unschoolers across the country to find out how
they handle their requirements, every state is too different. If you
can't get the information you need from other Washington State
unschoolers, you're not going to get it from someone from California
or New Mexico or Illiniois or Massachusetts. When you ask questions
on WA lists, and get lots of curriculum-related responses, you just
need to ignore those that are irrelevant and sort through them to
figure out what other unschoolers are doing. It doesn't hurt you to
get the unhelpful responses as long as you're getting something else
mixed in with it. There ARE other unschoolers in Washington so not
everybody is doing curriculum.

If you go to this page <http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/regional/
WashingtonSupport.htm> you will find a list of a LOT of support
groups in Washington. Some are specifically unschooling and quite a
few are eclectic or inclusive. Even if you don't live in their area,
you might email them and find out what they do to meet state
requirements.

> There are lots of excuses and many good reasons for people to
> >decide radical unschooling won't work.

> Sandra
>

<<<That's your advice for maintaining unschooling purity
or serentiy or what have you in the face of this
obstacle?>>>

Nanci - you're sort of doing some kind of "Yes, but...." thing. It
feels like you are looking for there to be obstacles. Sandra's
response was based on that - if it is going to be that hard and
unworkable, maybe you should not do it. Better to do some simple
curricular stuff than have a stressed out mom, I think, is the idea.

If you haven't even tried to work with FLO, but are asking in advance
of contacting them, then you are really overly anticipating
difficulties. That is what they DO, they are there to do what you're
asking people here to do - help you meet state requirements while not
impinging on your daily lives.


-pam




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nanci K.

> Relax! Washington state has plenty of unschoolers meeting the legal
requirements and probably quite a few under the radar. It really is
not a big deal. Really!
> Mary Ellen

LOL, thanks Mary Ellen. Really I am not sitting here sweating bullets
about this constantly. It's just something I have never had answered
to my satisfaction and still comes up from time to time. Really my
main concerns are 1) that my kids' special needs will cause us to be
more in a spotlight and 2) maintaining my unschooling serenity
seperate and apart from fulfilling these requirements.

Nanci K.

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 16, 2006, at 2:13 PM, Nanci Kuykendall wrote:

> >Are they up to what special ed kids their age would
> be doing if >they were at school? Maybe look into
> that.
>
> Look into what?



Look into what special ed kids their age would be doing in school.

-=-I am not aware of special
caveats in the law for homeschoolers with "special
needs" if that's what youmeant, -=-

You quoted yourself the law saying something about their stage of
development.
Maybe get local help to read the laws; this isn't the list for it.




-=-I frankly don't care for ourselves what their "level"
or whatever is compared to other kids, I am only
concerned about it with regards to getting assessments
approved without being harrassed, as the assessments
do care. I want to be prepared in that event. -=-

You can't have two equal priorities. One is more important than the
other. A great many priorities can keep unschooling from working
optimally. If you choose any of those, this list won't be as helpful
to you as it would be otherwise.

-=-Maybe
I will find the assessor is not so picky and we won't
have a concern, in which case I will be relieved and
pleasantly surprised. But if it turns out otherwise,
I want to have some preparedness for that contingency.-=-

This is a HUGE "yeah but."
FIRST find an assessor. Then realize that that is a local
situation. Then see if it isn't a pleasant surprise compared to the
worst-case-scenario you seem to be focussed on.


The whole post seemed a load of "yeah-but."

If you can't figure a way around the laws (even though others have)
then you can't.
If you can't keep out of the view of social services, then you can't.

This list can't change any of that.
We can't be everything to everyone.
We can't help all situations.

We can talk about how natural learning works, and we should do that
now, and have no more details of a single jurisdiction.

-=-
>There are lots of excuses and many good reasons for
people to >decide radical unschooling won't work.
>Sandra

-=-That's your advice for maintaining unschooling purity
or serentiy or what have you in the face of this
obstacle?-=-

There is no purity and no serenity in your litany of obstacles. The
fears aren't helping you and aren't helping this list.

I'm glad to know that locals have contacted you. That was the
original suggestion, wasn't it? To ask locals?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 16, 2006, at 3:13 PM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

>
> Nanci - you're sort of doing some kind of "Yes, but...." thing.

==========================================

I posted it sounded like "yeah but" before I saw Pam had written this.
Honest, I didn't copy. <G>

-=-if it is going to be that hard and
unworkable, maybe you should not do it.-=-

Not everyone can unschool, and those who can't aren't any good for
this list.
Honestly, it HAS to be something the family can figure out and
confidently live within.
Nothing the rest of us can write can make unschooling work for
another family. It all has to be internal understanding and
confidence on the part of the mom. Saying "I don't understand it,
but others are doing it" will NEVER ever work. You have to
understand it so well you could do it even if no one else was doing
it and no one else understood it.

It must be internalized.

That, we can help with.

Sandra

Nanci K.

> You've gotten a whole lot MORe than that Nanci, but it is feeling
> like you're ignoring it.

I was not responding to what everyone had said, I was responding and
asking a quesiton about what Sandra had said specifically, which is
why I quoted her. I wasn't ignoring what others had said, which I
thought I had already responded to.

> My understanding, though, Nanci, is that if you use FLO, you
>don't even have to meet with an evaluator - they just give you the
forms. They consider you the expert and they take your word for
>whatever you put down.

My question was more about my own unschooling mindset and protecting
that during this process. As far as concern about the "official
interest" in what my kids were doing, my main concern was that the
issue of autism would hook in more attention than we wanted. I just
wanted to be prepared.

> You seem to be a person who takes things extremely literally
and > I think this is causing you to be a lot more concerned about
all >this than you need to be.

I hope you are right. You most likely are. I don't believe that I
am thinking I need to do more than I have to, I mean I even have
copies of the assessments of others as examples for what I need to
do. I just can't perdict what other people will do once thrown into
that mix of our unschooling, and this will be the first year in
which we draw in an official assessor. I recently had a not nice
run in with a local "tutor who used to be a teacher" who told me all
educators including homeschooling parents should be required to have
a masters degree in education and that it was "assinine and criminal
that we (parents) were allowed to do our own assessments and if she
had anything to say about it...." etc...

Mostly though, I just wanted the practical advice about my being ZEN
about our unschooling while I have to do this secret schoolish crap
on the side for legal requirements. I appreciate and am
assimilating what I've been hearing on that topic.

> So - I'm asking directly. Do you have the forms from FLO? Do you
>know what THEY ask you to write down?

Yes, I know what they ask. That's not really what I was asking.
Maybe I just am not communicating well. I'm sorry. I'll just stop
with this message becasue I am percieving that others are getting
upset with me but I don't kow why.

> You can't just talk to unschoolers across the country to find out
>how they handle their requirements, every state is too different.

Why not? If unschooling looks different in every home for every
person but the principles remain the same, why would advice on how
to not let unavoidable schoolish stuff (whether it's grandma
quizzing Jr. or a child choosing to take a class of somet kind, or
state required stuff or whatever) affect your unschooling mindset,
how to let it roll off, tricks and tips for not letting that
interfere. I recall even Sandra saying (not to put words in
anyone's mouth and forgive me if I am somehow remembering wrong) at
some time in the past on this list that if she had such requirements
it might be harder to stay in a purely unschooling mindset inside
herself. Why is it wrong to ask for help, advice, experience of
others and so on, on that level?

> Nanci - you're sort of doing some kind of "Yes, but...." thing.

Because I didn't feel that I was getting answers to the questions I
was asking. I was getting mainly answers to questions I wasn't
really asking. That's probably my fault for not communicating
properly what I was trying to ask.

>It feels like you are looking for there to be obstacles.

Hmmm...I'll think on that. It doesn't feel that way to me. Maybe
because I have run into so many obstacles already in my children's
lives I just expect that this new hurdle will come with obstacles
and I want to be prepared for them. Maybe that's a wrong assumption
and I will be surprised at how easy and how much a non issue it
seems after the fact. I certainly hope so. That would be nice for
a change. Me inability to get others to answer things over the
years, like for instance the possible repercussions of not
registering, has also made me more suspicious.

I can see now that part of the problem for me is the unknown
quantity, not being able to predict what is coming. This is causing
me a lot of stress. There is also the element of interacting with
unknown people whom I cannot predict the responses of and who have
some power over my life that is upsetting and stressing me out. I
see now that these are not things that any level of preparedness
will fix but just something I just need to deal with.

>Sandra's response was based on that - if it is going to be that
hard and unworkable, maybe you should not do it. Better to do some
simple curricular stuff than have a stressed out mom, I think, is
>the idea.

Thank you! That makes her statement make a lot more sense to me. I
understand now what she was saying. NO, I am not looking to do a
currcilum. That would not make me feel better or happier or less
stressed or whatever. Not being registered till this year was
better, but I didn't think it was possible in our situation to sail
under the radar anymore and I didn't want to have legal troubles.
On the other hand, I have often heard that in some cases it is
better to ask for forgiveness than for permission and perhaps this
is one of those situations and I should not have let my resolve
waver enough to register but just kept sailing along happily
unschooling under the radar. Too late now I think, unless we
move. :-/

> If you haven't even tried to work with FLO, but are asking in
>advance of contacting them, then you are really overly
anticipating difficulties. That is what they DO, they are there to
do what you're asking people here to do - help you meet state
>requirements while not impinging on your daily lives.
> -pam

Ok, I will try to talk to them again. Thank you for taking your
time to explain this to me better Pam.

Nanci K.

Nanci K.

> It must be internalized.
>
> That, we can help with.
>
> Sandra

That's what I was asking for, in terms of dealing with this specific
issue, but it could have been anything really. We do unschool, and
have unschooled and are unschooling. I've had other unschoolers call
me a "Poster Mom" for respecting children. Whatever. I have strong
principles and I try to live them with my family. I try to learn all
the time. I have a bump I wanted help with.

Nanci K.

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 16, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Nanci K. wrote:

> -=- I wasn't ignoring what others had said, which I
> thought I had already responded to.-=-


Response isn't what was needed. Taking the advice is what would have
shown that you weren't ignoring them.

-=-My question was more about my own unschooling mindset and protecting
that during this process.-=-

You can't. Many people said that. You can't care about school type
things and maintain a pure unschooling mindset.
You just can't do both. No matter how many ways you rephrase the
problem, the answer doesn't change.

-=- I recently had a not nice
run in with a local "tutor who used to be a teacher" who told me all
educators including homeschooling parents should be required to have
a masters degree in education and that it was "assinine and criminal
that we (parents) were allowed to do our own assessments and if she
had anything to say about it...." etc...-=-

We could all tell two or three stories of run-ins with nuts, but it
wouldn't do any of us any good.

-=-Mostly though, I just wanted the practical advice about my being ZEN
about our unschooling while I have to do this secret schoolish crap
on the side for legal requirements. -=-

You don't get zen while you're wallowing in negativity and calling
your main concern crap.
Be positive and at peace and hopeful and find the smooth way and then
worry about "being zen."

-=-Why not? If unschooling looks different in every home for every
person but the principles remain the same, why would advice on how
to not let unavoidable schoolish stuff (whether it's grandma
quizzing Jr. or a child choosing to take a class of somet kind, or
state required stuff or whatever) affect your unschooling mindset,
how to let it roll off, tricks and tips for not letting that
interfere.-=-

Most states don't require record keeping.
This list is not about record keeping.

http://sandradodd.com/unschool/relatives

-=-I can see now that part of the problem for me is the unknown
quantity, not being able to predict what is coming. This is causing
me a lot of stress. -=-

It might be good to take a yoga class or a meditation class, or read
inspiring, peaceful things.
It also explains the "yeah-buts" because you're not relaxing. I
think you're used to being afraid and uneasy, and you're justifying
staying that way, because several people suggested more peaceful and
calmer ideas, and you batted each and every one away.

Maybe you don't want to have us help you be calmer, you want us to
say it's good and right for you to maintain your fear. It's not.
And it's not good to fill the list with it. That's what you're doing
that's irritating. You're being a pot of bubbling fear.

-=-Too late now I think, unless we
move. :-/-=-

Just don't register next year. People move from one district to
another ALL THE TIME. People move from one state to another, and
they don't need the state's permission. If you "get caught" not
being registered, they'll tell you to register.

-=-Me inability to get others to answer things over the
years, like for instance the possible repercussions of not
registering, has also made me more suspicious.-=-

If no one knows what happens if you're not registered, it probably
means nobody has ever been in trouble for not registering. You're
borrowing trouble. You're collecting trouble. You're making trouble
up and rubbing it all over yourself and telling us it can't be
avoided. Just stop. If you can't stop, at least quit writing about
it. Seriously.

Sandra

Pamela Sorooshian

> -=-I can see now that part of the problem for me is the unknown
> quantity, not being able to predict what is coming. This is causing
> me a lot of stress.


Nanci - the future is ALWAYS unknown. You can't know.

This stuff you're worrying over - it ought to be of concern for about
2 hours per year. The rest of the time, you ought to set it aside so
that you are not perseverating over it. That energy is being wasted
and you need that energy for other things.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]