Nanci Kuykendall

>Self-regulation refers to the body's ability to sense
needs
>and, for the most part, address them automatically.
Part of >Breanna's autism is a self-regulation
dysfunction. Her brain
>kind of short circuits, and either she a) can't find
what she >needs for regulation or b) she gets stuck in
a self-reg
>that she no longer wants, but can't stop.
>Melissa

I see we live in the same world Melissa. My sons
Thomas and Alex are both developmentally different,
Thomas has Aspergers Syndrome, (High Functioning
Autism) among other related differences or
dysfunctions, and Alex is somewhere on the autism
spectrum as well. We don't know what it's like to
have kids who are not like this, who are "normal."

For a long time we didn't see Alex' tendancies towards
autism spectrum difficulties because he's so very
different from Thomas and he's much more functional or
less adversely affected in a number of ways than
Thomas is. Thomas, being older, set our definitions
for autism as being the things he does, and that made
it harder for us to see it in Alex. However the
reason autism is described as a spectrum and
symbolized with a multicolored puzzle image, is due to
it's huge range of symptoms and modes of presentation
and it's many unknown and mysterious qualities.

Autism is really hard to get a diagnosis for usually,
particularly high functioning autism, and the kids
usually run through scads of labels (particularly if
they are in school) to explain their behavioral issues
and other problems and challenges (labels like ADHD,
learning disabilities, mood disorders, bi-polar,
sensory integration dysfunction and so on) before they
finally hit on autism. Often they do have those or
other things going on too (common comorbid diagnosis)
that run in that developmental area, further clouding
and confusing things. Thomas sure does. many times
diagnostic difficulties are just because we don't
understand autism very well at all, and have very
little idea what causes it (none at all officially
accepted) or what "it" exacly is and does. Medical
people are also afraid to diagnose it because it's a
fearful word, one they are afraid of and one parents
get viscerally angry for having applied to their
child. They would rather say PDDNOS (Pervasive
Developmental Disorder Not Otherwise Specified) or
something similarly ineffectual, which means very
little and helps (as in making therapies and things
available, helping parents understand and parent their
child better and so on) not at all.

The three adults in our home are also somewhere on the
spectrum or shadow border of autism, including myself.
Obviously there are well known genetic components and
it's common for mutliple generations back in an
autistic's family to share myriad clues and tendancies
(often just viewed as eccentricities) towards autism.
It's also common to have a much greater autism
percentage in families with many members involved in
maths, arts and sciences, which describes my family
certainly.

I feel that the difference between what constitutes a
difference and what is a dysfunction often boils down
to point of view and comparisons to the most common
denominators. Common doesn't always equate to normal
as far as we're concerned. Different doesn't always
mean dysfunctional. That's something I think most
unscoolers can agree with pretty readily. In some
things yes, there is true dysfunction that needs
addressing, but other times there's just differently
functioning, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

It's been really hard for me, as an unschooler, to
find the balance between what my beliefs and
principles tell me about parenting and about
unschooling, and what my children actually need. Tom
and I have had to come to a hard and not desired
conclusion that our kids do *need* us to set
boundaries, and yes some rules, and to help them
schedule and manage different things, more than a
"normal" (unschooled or otherwise) child would. They
really do need that kind of black and white pattern to
follow, because a world of greys is totally
overwhelming for them and causes all sorts of bad
things to happen, in them and in our family. We know,
we learned the hard way, being stubborn about wanting
to unschool our kids, not set rules, not have bedtimes
and such.

They often cannot recognize, let alone articulate how
they feel or what they need. Although they are both
showing remarkable progress in that area, but are
still behind where most kids their age would be in
those abilities. Recognizing and acting on the
emotions and needs of others if hard too, and likely
will be all their lives. Reading faces (angry, sad,
worried) and body language is really hard for them.
Knowing and then taking appropriate action under
stress is really hard for them, and stress is always
one moment of frustration away, like flipping a switch
from happy to raging.

We've learned that our kids really do need to be woke
up at a general certain time and helped to get to bed
at a certain time, because they really, really *can't*
do that self regulation, and without a regular
schedule for sleeping there is a cascading
deterioration in them in many ways. They need
patterns and routines and rituals for everything, and
if we don't provide them they create their own,
sometimes inappropriate ones, but other times fine.
They also deteriorate if they don't have a regular
patterned schedule overall, both daily and weekly.
They need to know what's coming, plan for things, have
a sense of control. Surprises, even good ones, are
horibly upsetting. For instance they pick out their
own gifts and help me wrap them because that's the
only way they are comfortable with recieving wrapped
gifts.

They really do need for us to help redirect (often
firmly and with physical intervention) their conflicts
and self soothing behaviors (tics, etc.) to prevent
things from getting out of hand, perseverating
obsessivness, impulsive violence, etc. We really do
need to manage their emotional outbursts as well,
having to use physical restraint to prevent behavior
that is self injurious or injurious to others. This
is lessening as they get older thankfully!! but Thomas
is 9 and I still have to do it a couple times a week
at least.

We really do need to insist on certain clothing
choices appropriate to the weather or setting, because
they have a hard time learning from experience and
have sensory problems that can cause things like
frostbite and illness before they think they might
need to get warmer or drier or whatever, or a lack of
social awareness or sensory or other problems that
will cause them to want to run barefoot in a food
store or restaurant, or walk around with their hands
in their pants, self fondling as a toddler would, or
remove their shirt, lick people or things, or
whatever. We're a lot more relaxed about what's an
acceptable choice or behavior than a lot of folks
we've known, but we do have to have some parameters in
there and constant reminders. Just asking them to
consider their actions and be respectful to others, or
treat them how they would want to be treated or
similar parental admonissions is totally not enough
information at all and open to far too much
interpretation, not to mention lapses in impulse
control.

These are not "retarded" or mentally deficient kids.
They are bright, have been called "gifted", have a wry
and surprising (as in unusual) sense of humor, have
talents and skills. They are extremely verbose and
articulate (Thomas is hyperverbal) with large and well
developed vocabularies. They play complex adult
computer games and enjoy adult movies and books as
well as kids ones. Thomas (9) wants to be a director
(of movies) when he grows up and can wax long on movie
plots, themes, character development, backstory
details, and so on, that being his obsession of
choice. He loves complicated multi-movie or
multi-book fantasy sagas. Thomas is also a very
gifted storyteller. Alex (7) loves to dance and plays
guitar and keyboard/piano, sings, switch hits with a
bat and catches and pitches, can throw a frisbee,
tumble, does huge puzzles, does multi-digit multi
function math in his head faster than me. He doesn't
have Thomas' spatial or motor development problems.

They don't "look" any different than regular kids, and
are in fact both really handsome. (really! I'm not
just biased! Their long thick eyelashes, Thomas huge
grey eyes and dimples and impish grin, Alex' generous
mouth and square jaw and dimpled chin...) Often on
short or casual observation they don't seem to act any
different than typical kids either. All this makes it
harder not easier for ourselves, our families and
others to understand and see that they do have real
challenges, they are not just "misbehaving" and we're
not just some weird hovering overly involved parents.

I'm sorry to be so long winded on this topic, but I
really felt like sharing the complexities that enter
into raising a child or children who have these types
of differences while maintaining unschooling and
attachment parenting principles. It's a challenge to
be sure.

Nanci K.

Susan McGlohn

At 19:22 1/3/2006, you wrote:

>I'm sorry to be so long winded on this topic, but I
>really felt like sharing the complexities that enter
>into raising a child or children who have these types
>of differences while maintaining unschooling and
>attachment parenting principles. It's a challenge to
>be sure.


It is very challenging, to be sure, but what a wonderful challenge it is! :-)

I have two boys who fall on the higher end of the spectrum myself, but I
can't see us ever returning Rules after learning how to live by
Principles. Every family is different, and every child on the spectrum is
different from every other one, but for us, radically unschooling has
worked wonderfully.

I've found it takes a LOT of discussion and prep work on my part, to help
the boys navigate. We have developed a family rhythm that provides the
basic daily structure they need, and all plans and events are talked about
as thoroughly as possible beforehand to prepare them, and are talked about
again afterwards to "debrief" them too, to help them understand and process
the experiences they have had.

Even things like sensory integration therapy and speech therapy has been
approached through an unschooling way, and seems to work well for my children.

I think radically unschooling has literally saved the lives and spirits of
my boys. They really *shine*! You might check out Anne Ohman's Shine
With Unschooling list, too. There are about 500 parents on there now who
have found that radically unschooling "non-typical" kids works best.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shinewithunschooling/


Susan M (VA)
wifetovegman
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html

"I am taking this opportunity to tell you that I am untraditional. I teach
my kids about the things that really matter. I will teach them about
Abraham Lincoln and Ronnie Van Sandt, because they are equally important in
my house." ~Jessie Baylor, Elizabethtown



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nanci K.

> It is very challenging, to be sure, but what a wonderful challenge
it is! :-)

Definately

> I have two boys who fall on the higher end of the spectrum myself,
>but I can't see us ever returning Rules after learning how to live
>by Principles. Every family is different, and every child on the
spectrum is different from every other one, but for us, radically
>unschooling has worked wonderfully.

We are radical unschoolers. My kids have never been in school or
day care, never had "schoolwork" or imposed chores, punishments, or
so forth. We didn't start doing a "bedtime" until a few years ago,
and Tom and I keep the same hours as they do. We all sleep in the
same room. The boys made it clear they needed more imposed
structure around bedtime in terms of helping them go through all the
steps towards sleep, especially Thomas. They are not able to put
themselves to sleep, although they used to as babies and toddlers.
I imagine it's a developmental phase for them. We're still as
flexible as they will allow us to be about everything, from the
where/what/when of meals, to activites both at home and elsewhere.
We'd like to be more spontaneous, more flowing in our "schedule" and
other areas, but they won't let us. We used to be and they were not
at all happy.

>You might check out Anne Ohman's Shine With Unschooling list, too.

I am on that list and have been for some time now. I've posted
there a number of times as well, but I had to stop reading because I
just cannot keep up with it at all.

Nanci K.

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 3, 2006, at 5:57 PM, Susan McGlohn wrote:

> I've found it takes a LOT of discussion and prep work on my part,
> to help
> the boys navigate. We have developed a family rhythm that provides
> the
> basic daily structure they need, and all plans and events are
> talked about
> as thoroughly as possible beforehand to prepare them, and are
> talked about
> again afterwards to "debrief" them too, to help them understand and
> process
> the experiences they have had.

---------------------------------------------

That's a kind of structure, a way of interacting. "Family rhythm" is
a good term.

Too many people, I think, read or hear "no bedtime" or "they eat when
they want to" and imagine that the parents are ignoring the kids,
never waking them up under any circumstances, never suggesting it
might be a good idea to go to sleep earlier because of something
happening the next morning, or the child not feeling good. They seem
to think that parents never make food or take kids to eat.

Just half an hour ago we were talking about who needs to be where and
do what when tomorrow. None of us would normally spring a plan on
the others, or knowingly withhold information about a need or
appointment. We've reminded each other for so many years, it's
normal and expected and comforting. If someone said "I have to be
somewhere in half an hour" that would be unusual and there would be
apologies.

We coach and discuss who needs what done how before we go places. We
all remind the others of lots of details. I'll remind Keith to take
his glasses if there might be some music to read, or something else
to read. Holly will remind me of bathroom-type-things. Keith
reminds us all about jackets. We're not leaving anyone to make
decisions and figure life out on his own. We're all doing things
together all the time. We're aware when one of the others seems
frustrated, or hungry, or is getting sick. Keith asked if Marty's
toe was still hurting, Marty asked if I had fun at Ramona's house, etc.

Somehow sometimes those kinds of visions aren't conveyed.

Sandra

Nanci K.

Yes, I am replying to myself.

I just watned to clarify, when I said that our boys "will" do this or
that thing (like when I was talking about the boys needing black and
white clothing rules/reminders/guidance) I wasn't saying that they
might, or they could, or I thought that they would. I wasn't
saying "Now if I don't make them do X-Y-Z they would do (insert
horible exaggeration here) all day long!"

When I said they "will" do those things, I meant they "DO" do those
things, and "have done" those things, and "are doing" those things and
do need our help not to.

Just to clarify.

Nanci K.

Susan McGlohn

At 20:20 1/3/2006, you wrote:

>We are radical unschoolers. My kids have never been in school or
>day care, never had "schoolwork" or imposed chores, punishments, or
>so forth. We didn't start doing a "bedtime" until a few years ago,
>and Tom and I keep the same hours as they do. We all sleep in the
>same room. The boys made it clear they needed more imposed
>structure around bedtime in terms of helping them go through all the
>steps towards sleep, especially Thomas. They are not able to put
>themselves to sleep, although they used to as babies and toddlers.

Yes, we have a sort of "family bedtime" too (that is what I meant by family
rhythm). We just start winding down and doing more quiet things, and
usually by about 10:30 we're all tired and cozy and it is time to
sleep. My teen daughter (16), though, thrives on nighttime, so she is
usually still bebopping around the house, enjoying the time to herself,
until the wee hours of the morning.


>I imagine it's a developmental phase for them. We're still as
>flexible as they will allow us to be about everything, from the
>where/what/when of meals, to activites both at home and elsewhere.
>We'd like to be more spontaneous, more flowing in our "schedule" and
>other areas, but they won't let us. We used to be and they were not
>at all happy.

Yep, people on the autistic spectrum thrive on regularity of schedules. It
greatly reduces anxiety and stress, and the tendency to obsess about what
is coming. That is why we spend so much time "briefing" the boys whenever
there is an activity or change in plans. Like I said, it is challenging
sometimes, but what a wonderful challenge!

I don't think providing what they need to feel comfortable and secure is
antithetical to unschooling. I have heard other parents of children with
autism insist that their children need a boxed curriculum because they
"need structure", and they just can't believe that that type of structure
isn't really what the child needs or wants.


>I am on that list and have been for some time now. I've posted
>there a number of times as well, but I had to stop reading because I
>just cannot keep up with it at all.

It is a really busy list, I know! LOL! My trick is to sort by subject
line, and just delete anything that doesn't pertain to us or catch my
interest. I do miss some things, especially when people forget to change
the subject line, but oh well!


Susan M (VA)
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html

"I am taking this opportunity to tell you that I am untraditional. I teach
my kids about the things that really matter. I will teach them about
Abraham Lincoln and Ronnie Van Sandt, because they are equally important in
my house." ~Jessie Baylor, Elizabethtown



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Susan McGlohn

At 20:30 1/3/2006, you wrote:

>When I said they "will" do those things, I meant they "DO" do those
>things, and "have done" those things, and "are doing" those things and
>do need our help not to.

And I am sure you help them in the most respectful and kind manner, and
your motives are not to control so much as to help them navigate situations
successfully.

I loved reading your long post, and felt like you were describing my family
too, like you had a little video of us in action. It sounds like a warm,
loving terrifically unschooling family whose children have some unique
challenges that most unschooling families don't.

YAY UNSCHOOLING! ;-)

And YAY for you, too, Nanci, for continually trying to find that balance
needed.


Susan M (VA)
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html

"I am taking this opportunity to tell you that I am untraditional. I teach
my kids about the things that really matter. I will teach them about
Abraham Lincoln and Ronnie Van Sandt, because they are equally important in
my house." ~Jessie Baylor, Elizabethtown



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nanci K.

> Too many people, I think, read or hear "no bedtime" or "they eat
>when they want to" and imagine that the parents are ignoring the
>kids,

I agree that seems a common misconception about unschooling. I've
seen this ni others as well. As you've said before "Unschooling
doesn't mean unparenting."

>never suggesting it might be a good idea to....

This is where I run into a problem. I would love to do this. My
inclination is to do this in fact. I have to fight with myself to
get to that level of involvement that my boys need, which is more
than a casual suggestion, a sincere serious request, or a heartfelt
plea even. That works sometimes, but often is just not adequate.

For instance Thomas loves the cats. He loves them to their
distress. They cry and squirm and are in pain or frightened and he
refuses to put them down. He has been constantly scratched up for
years now, always bearing marks of loving the cats too hard. It
hurts and he bleeds and cries, but it's little to no deterrent.
They run from him when they see him often. We can ask, beg, and
command him to put a cat down or let it go, but it boils down to us
having to physically remove the cat from his arms. He feels bad
about it, and says "I'm sorry, I just can't help it. I try and try
but..." He asks us to help him stop himself. So we stop him from
picking up the cats, he's just not allowed to. He can love them as
long as they are willing to be stationary for him to do so wherever
they are. That's just one example.

>None of us would normally spring a plan on the others, or knowingly
>withhold information about a need or appointment.

Right, of course, that's just common courtesy with people you live
with, particularly in a close family. We certainly do that too.

But imagine someone calls one of you, kids or adults, and
says, "Hey, we're having a birthday party for your good friend five
hours from now! We forgot to let you know that we changed the day.
We're really sorry! Hope you can make it!"

What would be their reaction? I imagine, surprise, excitement,
maybe some irritation at the last minute notice, some rushing to get
ready maybe?

When this happened to Thomas, he flat refused to go. He screamed
for an hour. He was extremely unhappy for two or three more hours,
tense and stressed and doing self soothing behaviors. Then in the
last hour or so, he began to adjust to the idea, began to accept the
possibility of going, then began to get excited about going. We
were a little late, but he finally was able to go and enjoy himself,
in his way. Of course that entire time before the party we were
hugely involved in trying to talk him through and get him to a point
where he could go. We were totally exhausted by the time we
arrived, but he did get to go! If he had been too upset to go, he
would have been angry and upset with himself about it for weeks
afterwards.

Autistics just don't *do* flexibility, at least not easily.

> We're aware when one of the others seems frustrated, or hungry,
>or is getting sick.

There's another big difference for us. Often with autistics they
are *not* aware of the needs, thoughts or feelings of those around
them, even when they seem obvious and clear to anyone else. They
don't often consider how their actions affect others and even when
they are told, they often don't *get* it. They can't see it and
don't understand how to address it if they do see it. They also can
resist and ignore their own needs, even when directly having them
pointed out.

Nanci K.

Nanci K.

> And I am sure you help them in the most respectful and kind
>manner, and your motives are not to control so much as to help them
>navigate situations successfully.

Of course. :-)

> I loved reading your long post, and felt like you were describing
>my family too, like you had a little video of us in action.

Thanks. I didn't mean it to run so long, but it -is- a complex
issue and there's just no easy way to describe it or shorthand way
to talk about it with someone who doesn't *know* what it's like from
living with autistics themselves. I'm glad you got some positive
enjoyment out of reading it. And thanks for your other nice
comments as well.

> YAY UNSCHOOLING! ;-)

I say that a lot. Yay Unschooling! I am so thankful my kids are
not burdened with all those official labels and pronouncements from
school Dr.s and therapists, or burdened with a sense of failure
because of all their differences and inability to fit into the
school models. In fact I don't think they are largely aware of
their differences, and the ones they are are totally and wholly
accepted as being wonderful parts of their unique selves. They
don't suffer self image problems. I shudder to think how Thomas in
particular could ahve been damaged by a struggle through a school
system special education program. Their friends are mainly other
kids who are developmentally different, or unusually patient and
tolerant, and our adult friends are the same kinds of folks.

Nanci K.

multimomma

--- In [email protected], Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@y...> wrote:
> I see we live in the same world Melissa. My sons
> Thomas and Alex are both developmentally different,
> Thomas has Aspergers Syndrome

My oldest son Josh has aspergers, comorbid with nonverbal learning disorder. Breanna is
my number two, she's the one with autism. The younger children are all (relatively) normal,
but as we say, what is normal anyway ;-) LOL! I actually have more trouble with the typical
kids than my auties, auties are very straightforward with their needs, my younger kids are
more needy and complex. I've had to learn alot since having them, esp the boys (4 and 2
yo).

> For a long time we didn't see Alex' tendancies towards
> autism spectrum difficulties because he's so very
> different from Thomas and he's much more functional

YES! Ours are so completely different. Bre was dx'd first, when she turned two, and Josh
was dx'd three years later. I would say long run Bre will be more intense for us, but Josh
has been a puzzle for a while. I've always loved the person he is, but the schools only
appreciate him for his high test scores. They both have sensory integration dysfunction,
but Bre's manifests as hyperactive disorder, high pain tolerance, remarkable balance, and
lack of fear. Josh is the opposite in every way, and it still amazes me that they both have
DSI but are so completely different. Josh is very laid back, likes to read and play games,
has been fearful of new things since toddling, is extremely sensitive to pain and emotion,
and can't stand straight without falling over. Seriously, once at the mall, I was amazed to
see him stand still, and his feet flew right out from underneath him. If you didn't know him
you'd think he was faking for attention.

> The three adults in our home are also somewhere on the
> spectrum or shadow border of autism, including myself.

My husband and I are both spectrumy. strong interests, my hubby is very shy, and I am in
large situations. My dad is very aspie, and so is my BIL, although neither have been dx'd. I
have sensory issues out the wazoo, and totally relate to all my kids' issues with noise. I
thought everyone could hear light bulbs hum until the psych told me that's what was
causing Breanna's meltdowns at school! I would say that there was definately a strong
component, however, there must have been a trigger to cause a stronger dysfunction in
our oldest two, but not in the younger ones.

> I feel that the difference between what constitutes a
> difference and what is a dysfunction often boils down
> to point of view

I like that. I have a tendency to describe Josh's difference as just that, because he hides his
problems better. One thing that has led me to keeping my kids out of the system and at
home is the fact that labelling them seems to drag them down. And they don't need that.
Schools want to categorize the kids for simplicity, and I was seeing Bre suffer for it as well.
EVERY child is capable of learning, and the schools will not attempt to help those who are
more disabled.

> It's been really hard for me, as an unschooler, to
> find the balance between what my beliefs and
> principles tell me about parenting and about
> unschooling, and what my children actually need.

yes! Where do you draw the line between trying to teach a child with a disability and
respecting their needs to learn on their own, express themselves, and do what they need
to do...for example, how long do we let Breanna rock? It's so touchy! Obviously she started
for a reason, self-soothing, but there comes a point where it must stop before she injures
herself or because she cannot eat. She needs to express herself, but not by scaring other
people. She gets frustrated, but she's not allowed to take it out on other people.

> These are not "retarded" or mentally deficient kids.
> They are bright, have been called "gifted", have a wry
> and surprising (as in unusual) sense of humor, have
> talents and skills.

Yep, even my nonverbal daughter has a high IQ (if you're into those things), both are very
intelligent, I'll be Josh is alot like Thomas, he spoke very early and like 'a little professor'. I
must say I thought I was an excellent parent, he was the best mannered child, so insightful
and calm. LOL! It's all personality, and very little me. And I'm learning to appreciate
excitable sword fighting little boys like my little ones! It's fun to have a big family with
such a large swath of interests and abilities.

Thanks for explaining so well to everyone a little more personal view.

melissa

Gold Standard

Hi there!

I just wanted to mention again the shine
list...[email protected]. Any of you with "atypical"
kids, Aspies, Auties, Downs, HS's...may want to visit there as it is a list
devoted to unschooling our particular kids with their very particular needs.

I have a son with ""different" tendencies that make unschooling...and
life..with him different than my other kids. It's nice to have a place where
there are many people working with similar issues.

Thanks,
Jacki

-
> Thomas has Aspergers Syndrome

>>My oldest son Josh has aspergers, comorbid with nonverbal learning
disorder. Breanna is
>>my number two, she's the one with autism.

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 4, 2006, at 10:03 PM, Gold Standard wrote:

> I just wanted to mention again the shine
> list...[email protected]. Any of you with
> "atypical"
> kids, Aspies, Auties, Downs, HS's...may want to visit there as it
> is a list
> devoted to unschooling our particular kids with their very
> particular needs.

The underlying principles of unschooling are the SAME and exploring
how they work in more unusual situations is very very good for all of
us. I don't have a daughter who rocks, but I think the discussion
about it would be very useful to many of us since LOTS of kids come
up with ways to soothe themselves that are problematic and we wonder
how long to let it go on, how or whether to intervene, how to help
them find other ways to soothe themselves, etc. The more extreme
versions can really help us gain clarity in our thinking about even
the less extreme behaviors.
The principle of seeing our children as real complete people right
NOW is also basic to unschooling, regardless of whether or not our
kids exhibit atypical behaviors or whether or not they have specific
disabilities. Again, the discussions about how to adhere to that
principle for atypical kids can help all of us understand these
principles much more deeply.

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Gold Standard

On Jan 4, 2006, at 10:03 PM, Gold Standard wrote:

> I just wanted to mention again the shine
> list...[email protected]. Any of you with
> "atypical"
> kids, Aspies, Auties, Downs, HS's...may want to visit there as it
> is a list
> devoted to unschooling our particular kids with their very
> particular needs.

>>The underlying principles of unschooling are the SAME and exploring
>>how they work in more unusual situations is very very good for all of
>>us.<<

I hear ya Pam however the shine list is very unique and VERY helpful to me,
in ways that this list can't be. It's nothing personal...just different
lists for different needs. When I say there..."Andrew has difficulty walking
through doorways" the answers I get there tend to be from parents who have
children who have the same issue and usually have great insight to share
based on actual experience. I don't have to spend lots of time explaining.

There are many people there who know...really know...what it is like to live
this life, and to unschool.

>>I don't have a daughter who rocks, but I think the discussion
>>about it would be very useful to many of us since LOTS of kids come
>>up with ways to soothe themselves that are problematic and we wonder
>>how long to let it go on, how or whether to intervene, how to help
>>them find other ways to soothe themselves, etc. The more extreme
>>versions can really help us gain clarity in our thinking about even
>>the less extreme behaviors.<<

Personally, I am happy to share those things here to educate others about my
son's "extreme" behaviors in hopes it gives insight, which is what it sounds
to me like you are suggesting (I could be wrong about that, let me know). I
don't mean to NOT discuss those things here. It would just be for a
different purpose.

It is easier when I don't have to go into great detail about the specific
behavior and its history, don't have to filter out all the things that I may
have done to cause the behavior, and when I don't have to spend a lot of
energy just getting people to understand.

And it seems I never have the time to go into great detail on email very
often.

I get something very big from this list as well...this is a fabulous
unschooling list...so so insightful and intelligent. I just love this list!

I hope this isn't offensive to anyone...not my intention AT ALL! I'm just
trying to explain why I would share another list with someone who may really
benefit from it.

Jacki




>

Susan McGlohn

At 01:25 1/5/2006, you wrote:

>The principle of seeing our children as real complete people right
>NOW is also basic to unschooling, regardless of whether or not our
>kids exhibit atypical behaviors or whether or not they have specific
>disabilities. Again, the discussions about how to adhere to that
>principle for atypical kids can help all of us understand these
>principles much more deeply.


I certainly agree with this, Pam. Unschooling principles don't change
because of a child's particular disability or challenge. Anne is the first
to say that ALL children shine when celebrated for exactly Who They
Are. I don't think she ever envisioned her list as serving as some sort
of "special ed class for unschoolers". LOL!

It is nice, though, when I am having a particularly hard day with one of my
sweet boys because of an issue that is related not to unschooling per se,
but to their autism, or to Andrew's auditory processing difficulties, or
Aaron's sensory issues, to be able to post about it on Shine and know that
I will get responses to the situation from other parents who have similar
situations in their homes, and those responses will be from an unschooling
mindset.



Susan (in VA)
wife to VegMan (aka Ted) since 12/86
momma to Sarah (10/89), Andrew (6/91), and Aaron (3/98)

"It's a small world....but a BIG life!" ~ Aaron, age 6

http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Jan 4, 2006, at 11:25 PM, Gold Standard wrote:

> Personally, I am happy to share those things here to educate others
> about my
> son's "extreme" behaviors in hopes it gives insight, which is what
> it sounds
> to me like you are suggesting (I could be wrong about that, let me
> know). I
> don't mean to NOT discuss those things here. It would just be for a
> different purpose.

I didn't mean so much that your experience gives insight. I mean, it
would, I'm sure, but I didn't mean it to be so one way. What I meant
was that when certain groups take themselves all off somewhere else,
we lose the diversity of perspective and experience that makes for
great discussions and help us ALL sort through our ideas. My
statewide homeschooling list lost a great deal when someone started a
state list for homeschooling "gifted" kids, for example, and some of
our most interesting posters went off there and cut back or entirely
left the more general list.

Anyway, sometimes people are very quick to suggest another list and I
think new people, especially, can easily take that as a suggestion
that they are in the wrong place. So it seems useful to clarify, once
in a while, that the underlying principles of unschooling are the
same for gifted kids, sensitive kids, autistic kids, explosive kids,
young kids, older kids, black kids, white kids, girls and boys, etc.
Talking about how we all apply those principles in our very-different
lives with our unique children is helpful in coming to a deeper
understanding OF those basic principles.

I'm not asking anybody to change anything - just expressing my own
thinking.

-pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joanne

I agree with what Pam posted and I wanted to post something about
this the other day but didin't have time.
There are quite a few of us with children that have different needs
on this list (and some of the other ones like UD & UB). I think that
when someone mentions their child has AS or SID and another list is
suggested, they may think that nobody HERE understands and that's
far from true.
When we adopted our three they had every dx under the sun...ODD,
ADHD, SID, PTSD, AS, depression, attachment disorder, developmental
delays and probably a few more I can't think of right now. They went
to speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, mental
health therapy and attachement therapy.
Believe me, I understand. :-)

~ Joanne ~
Mom to Jacqueline (7), Shawna (10) & Cimion (13)
Adopted into our hearts October 30, 2003
http://anunschoolinglife.blogspot.com/




--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 4, 2006, at 11:25 PM, Gold Standard wrote:
>
> > Personally, I am happy to share those things here to educate
others
> > about my
> > son's "extreme" behaviors in hopes it gives insight, which is
what
> > it sounds
> > to me like you are suggesting (I could be wrong about that, let
me
> > know). I
> > don't mean to NOT discuss those things here. It would just be
for a
> > different purpose.
>
> I didn't mean so much that your experience gives insight. I mean,
it
> would, I'm sure, but I didn't mean it to be so one way. What I
meant
> was that when certain groups take themselves all off somewhere
else,
> we lose the diversity of perspective and experience that makes
for
> great discussions and help us ALL sort through our ideas. My
> statewide homeschooling list lost a great deal when someone
started a
> state list for homeschooling "gifted" kids, for example, and some
of
> our most interesting posters went off there and cut back or
entirely
> left the more general list.
>
> Anyway, sometimes people are very quick to suggest another list
and I
> think new people, especially, can easily take that as a
suggestion
> that they are in the wrong place. So it seems useful to clarify,
once
> in a while, that the underlying principles of unschooling are the
> same for gifted kids, sensitive kids, autistic kids, explosive
kids,
> young kids, older kids, black kids, white kids, girls and boys,
etc.
> Talking about how we all apply those principles in our very-
different
> lives with our unique children is helpful in coming to a deeper
> understanding OF those basic principles.
>
> I'm not asking anybody to change anything - just expressing my
own
> thinking.
>
> -pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 5, 2006, at 1:17 AM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:

> -=-it seems useful to clarify, once
> in a while, that the underlying principles of unschooling are the
> same for gifted kids, sensitive kids, autistic kids, explosive kids,
> young kids, older kids, black kids, white kids, girls and boys,
> etc. -=-


Yes.

"Yes, but that won't work because..."
--my kid is gifted
--my kid needs structure
--my relatives are all educators
--my husband is an engineer
--i have a strong work ethic (an actual quote from a recent e-mail
from someone explaining to me that she would not be able to stay home
with a child, because she had a strong work ethic)


Learning works at the edge of what a person already knows. It's a
building on and connecting to what's already familiar and interesting.

No one can install knowledge into another person. You can fill the
air (or the screen, or a paper, or a painting, or a song) with ideas
and clues, but each listener/reader/viewer is left to pick up and
insert clues or not. They can try those puzzle pieces into their own
a-building universe and keep or reject them. They can frolic for a
moment or an hour with an idea they later abandon.

People have come to more localized lists asking things like "Is there
anyone here with an eight year old girl?" Not even "in the seven-to-
ten-year-old range" but eight (8). Girl. WHY!? It really shouldn't
matter. Choosing friends by birthday and gender is more like school
than diagramming sentences is. Finding a list of unschooling parents
of eight year old girls would be too.

No one but maybe a koala or an aphid would eat all his food off the
same tree for life. Living in a fully wide world means not looking
for a narrowly-defined corner of it.

Sandra