Re: Teens
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/28/2005 1:24:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I've never had experiences that you are stating, because once my kids turn
18 they receive their lump sum money from their dad and me, and then they
are
responsible for what happens in their lives. I have tried to help prepare
them for this for their whole life. But I do know that they all work into
the
idea that they want to be "adult" as far as the privileges, but aren't as
willing to realize the responsibilities that go along with that. I feel it
is
my duty as a parent to help them learn that -----
*******Oh, no, it isn't nearly as drastic as it sounded in the e-mail. The
way it goes is that at 18 we no longer give them their clothing allowance or
personal allowance. They are "free" to live at home as long as they care to
- that has ranged from 1 to 3 years and still counting - so far. (We do
charge rent, based on their earnings, to teach them the reality - a bit anyway-
of what it costs to live and eat). What I meant was that the decisions of -
will I work, will I go to school, will I buy a car, etc, become theirs ( we
offer info and advice ). By no means are they abandoned, but they have been
setting up their savings/checking acct for a few years, have had jobs of various
types, and usually taken some college classes by then.
They are always welcome to come home if they need to - only Shawn did once
for a summer job in his transfer from PA back to CA and then grad school.
My intended meaning, was that being grown up and making grown up decisions
can be VERY difficult. We as parents are the safety net. BUT -- with help,
the kids need to move into the world ( at their own speed) but we encourage
them to go -- they get cranky and restless just milling around at home -- well,
actually, I guess by 18 they were all involved in someway in going on into
the big world.
It was interesting to experience the idea of being a strict parent in
reading the e-mail - I'm usually perceived as pretty easy and accommodating!! :-)
I hope this makes my statements clearer.
Connie
www.homeschoolingreflections.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
I've never had experiences that you are stating, because once my kids turn
18 they receive their lump sum money from their dad and me, and then they
are
responsible for what happens in their lives. I have tried to help prepare
them for this for their whole life. But I do know that they all work into
the
idea that they want to be "adult" as far as the privileges, but aren't as
willing to realize the responsibilities that go along with that. I feel it
is
my duty as a parent to help them learn that -----
*******Oh, no, it isn't nearly as drastic as it sounded in the e-mail. The
way it goes is that at 18 we no longer give them their clothing allowance or
personal allowance. They are "free" to live at home as long as they care to
- that has ranged from 1 to 3 years and still counting - so far. (We do
charge rent, based on their earnings, to teach them the reality - a bit anyway-
of what it costs to live and eat). What I meant was that the decisions of -
will I work, will I go to school, will I buy a car, etc, become theirs ( we
offer info and advice ). By no means are they abandoned, but they have been
setting up their savings/checking acct for a few years, have had jobs of various
types, and usually taken some college classes by then.
They are always welcome to come home if they need to - only Shawn did once
for a summer job in his transfer from PA back to CA and then grad school.
My intended meaning, was that being grown up and making grown up decisions
can be VERY difficult. We as parents are the safety net. BUT -- with help,
the kids need to move into the world ( at their own speed) but we encourage
them to go -- they get cranky and restless just milling around at home -- well,
actually, I guess by 18 they were all involved in someway in going on into
the big world.
It was interesting to experience the idea of being a strict parent in
reading the e-mail - I'm usually perceived as pretty easy and accommodating!! :-)
I hope this makes my statements clearer.
Connie
www.homeschoolingreflections.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Dec 28, 2005, at 3:12 PM, conniecolten@... wrote:
Before they're 18, they couldn't work? You wouldn't let them go to
school if they wanted to, or buy a car if they wanted to?
Then I don't get the difference, except you make them buy their own
cars and pay rent?
-=-I hope this makes my statements clearer.-=-
It didn't for me.
Not clear:
-=-My intended meaning, was that being grown up and making grown up
decisions
can be VERY difficult. We as parents are the safety net. BUT --
with help,
the kids need to move into the world ( at their own speed) but we
encourage
them to go -- they get cranky and restless just milling around at
home -- well,
actually, I guess by 18 they were all involved in someway in going
on into
the big world.-=-
Sandra
> What I meant was that the decisions of -Oh.
> will I work, will I go to school, will I buy a car, etc, become
> theirs ( we
> offer info and advice ).
Before they're 18, they couldn't work? You wouldn't let them go to
school if they wanted to, or buy a car if they wanted to?
Then I don't get the difference, except you make them buy their own
cars and pay rent?
-=-I hope this makes my statements clearer.-=-
It didn't for me.
Not clear:
-=-My intended meaning, was that being grown up and making grown up
decisions
can be VERY difficult. We as parents are the safety net. BUT --
with help,
the kids need to move into the world ( at their own speed) but we
encourage
them to go -- they get cranky and restless just milling around at
home -- well,
actually, I guess by 18 they were all involved in someway in going
on into
the big world.-=-
Sandra
Ward
Hi,
I am returning to this group after quite a long break as lists in general became overwhelming and I had to live life but I have regularly connected to Sandra's web page on unschooling. We have a relaxed run unschooling household for the past nine years but I have come up against a problem I am not sure how to address.
Our daughter is 16 going on 17 - By way of background our country has a standard for admitting people under twenty to university (your equivalent of college) and in a nutshell it requires "school" credits from a fairly limited selection of prescribed subjects or you can take a gamble that they will accept you with some kind of equivalent status but no guarantees in advance. As there is only a once a year opportunity to sit the "school" exams you have to wait another year if your alternative proves unsuccessful. Dd is a keen writer and at this point thinks she may wish to pursue a career in communications supported by a university degree and work on her novel in her spare time.
The University Entrance process is essentially a two step process unless you do math all the way through. Some credits in math are compulsory. To complicate matters to get enough credits you need some credits which are internally assessed so you can't just work through things at home at your own pace as you need a school to "assess" work.
I don't really feel like a radical unschooler but the messages I am getting from dd is that I have instilled unschooling values. She hated having to hook into the school system. She felt the structure was awful, the correspondence booklets useless and the work pointless. I can understand her point of view. I tried to gently modify as much as possible but she was left feeling afraid she would not pass the courses if she did not do it the school way. The upshot has been a pretty miserable year all round. I am not sure how much of this is just being 16 going on 17 and how much is the school stuff. We are now faced with choices for 2009 and at present we have a reluctant acceptance of more 'school" stuff but the prospect breaks my heart. There have been many tears shed and I am looking for encouragement and advice on going forward.
Dd does not want to take a gamble on submitting an unschooling transcript along with some credits from the system (which are not the ones specified) and I respect that but I don't really want to endure another year like 2008 either. Suggestions??? How do I walk beside my teen through these difficulties or are they not in fact difficulties.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am returning to this group after quite a long break as lists in general became overwhelming and I had to live life but I have regularly connected to Sandra's web page on unschooling. We have a relaxed run unschooling household for the past nine years but I have come up against a problem I am not sure how to address.
Our daughter is 16 going on 17 - By way of background our country has a standard for admitting people under twenty to university (your equivalent of college) and in a nutshell it requires "school" credits from a fairly limited selection of prescribed subjects or you can take a gamble that they will accept you with some kind of equivalent status but no guarantees in advance. As there is only a once a year opportunity to sit the "school" exams you have to wait another year if your alternative proves unsuccessful. Dd is a keen writer and at this point thinks she may wish to pursue a career in communications supported by a university degree and work on her novel in her spare time.
The University Entrance process is essentially a two step process unless you do math all the way through. Some credits in math are compulsory. To complicate matters to get enough credits you need some credits which are internally assessed so you can't just work through things at home at your own pace as you need a school to "assess" work.
I don't really feel like a radical unschooler but the messages I am getting from dd is that I have instilled unschooling values. She hated having to hook into the school system. She felt the structure was awful, the correspondence booklets useless and the work pointless. I can understand her point of view. I tried to gently modify as much as possible but she was left feeling afraid she would not pass the courses if she did not do it the school way. The upshot has been a pretty miserable year all round. I am not sure how much of this is just being 16 going on 17 and how much is the school stuff. We are now faced with choices for 2009 and at present we have a reluctant acceptance of more 'school" stuff but the prospect breaks my heart. There have been many tears shed and I am looking for encouragement and advice on going forward.
Dd does not want to take a gamble on submitting an unschooling transcript along with some credits from the system (which are not the ones specified) and I respect that but I don't really want to endure another year like 2008 either. Suggestions??? How do I walk beside my teen through these difficulties or are they not in fact difficulties.
Julie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Dd does not want to take a gamble on submitting an unschooling
transcript along with some credits from the system (which are not the
ones specified) and I respect that but I don't really want to endure
another year like 2008 either. Suggestions??? How do I walk beside my
teen through these difficulties or are they not in fact difficulties.-=-
It seems she can either write up a glowing unschooling application
requesting an exemption from the rules for being wonderfully special,
or she can take some classes to get the credits.
Neither of those seems horrible. If she wants to be a plumber or a
pilot, there will be classes and tests.
I wouldn't get into a teen-angst boat and say "I'll go wherever you
go," though. I would stay in solid-land, point out the options, find
other things exciting and interesting in the world to keep ALL her
moments from being about school-or-not-school, and tell her I'd help
her with a transcript or with getting into classes, if that's what
she wanted.
-=-I don't really want to endure another year like 2008 either. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
That, maybe, although your daughter would be the school and the child
both. If it's not your choice to press school, you shouldn't have to
suffer the mother-of-school-child pressures. Find some honest,
clear options for her, present them to her, and then don't live
between her and the choice. It's an adult version of "Do you want to
wear the pink coat or the black one?"
(I haven't read other responses, and maybe other people had softer,
more gentle suggestions.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
transcript along with some credits from the system (which are not the
ones specified) and I respect that but I don't really want to endure
another year like 2008 either. Suggestions??? How do I walk beside my
teen through these difficulties or are they not in fact difficulties.-=-
It seems she can either write up a glowing unschooling application
requesting an exemption from the rules for being wonderfully special,
or she can take some classes to get the credits.
Neither of those seems horrible. If she wants to be a plumber or a
pilot, there will be classes and tests.
I wouldn't get into a teen-angst boat and say "I'll go wherever you
go," though. I would stay in solid-land, point out the options, find
other things exciting and interesting in the world to keep ALL her
moments from being about school-or-not-school, and tell her I'd help
her with a transcript or with getting into classes, if that's what
she wanted.
-=-I don't really want to endure another year like 2008 either. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
That, maybe, although your daughter would be the school and the child
both. If it's not your choice to press school, you shouldn't have to
suffer the mother-of-school-child pressures. Find some honest,
clear options for her, present them to her, and then don't live
between her and the choice. It's an adult version of "Do you want to
wear the pink coat or the black one?"
(I haven't read other responses, and maybe other people had softer,
more gentle suggestions.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny C
" Dd does not want to take a gamble on submitting an unschooling
transcript along with some credits from the system (which are not the
ones specified) and I respect that but I don't really want to endure
another year like 2008 either. Suggestions??? How do I walk beside my
teen through these difficulties or are they not in fact difficulties."
If I were in the same situation, I would lay out all the choices, let
her choose, and help her honor her choices. She may already have an
idea of what she wants to do. I wouldn't commiserate with her if her
choice goes wrong somewhere along the way. Sometimes, in the middle of
all the hard stuff, people can feel stuck and unsure about how to get
out or that there is even an out, still there. Help her remember why
she chose the way she did and help her to see that it can still be a
good one. Since it indirectly involves you, you can be the guide, to
keep pointing, and the cheering squad, and the meal maker and area
cleaner, and shuttle runner, and errand maker, all to help things go
smoother.
While she's doing the mandatory stuff, can she take a writing course of
some sort? I know, when I was in college, I never would've lasted if I
wasn't able to take classes that I really wanted beside the mandatory
ones, actually that was true for highschool as well.
All the required work to be done, can be done with your help, she
doesn't have to go it alone. Help her be successful in her decision.
transcript along with some credits from the system (which are not the
ones specified) and I respect that but I don't really want to endure
another year like 2008 either. Suggestions??? How do I walk beside my
teen through these difficulties or are they not in fact difficulties."
If I were in the same situation, I would lay out all the choices, let
her choose, and help her honor her choices. She may already have an
idea of what she wants to do. I wouldn't commiserate with her if her
choice goes wrong somewhere along the way. Sometimes, in the middle of
all the hard stuff, people can feel stuck and unsure about how to get
out or that there is even an out, still there. Help her remember why
she chose the way she did and help her to see that it can still be a
good one. Since it indirectly involves you, you can be the guide, to
keep pointing, and the cheering squad, and the meal maker and area
cleaner, and shuttle runner, and errand maker, all to help things go
smoother.
While she's doing the mandatory stuff, can she take a writing course of
some sort? I know, when I was in college, I never would've lasted if I
wasn't able to take classes that I really wanted beside the mandatory
ones, actually that was true for highschool as well.
All the required work to be done, can be done with your help, she
doesn't have to go it alone. Help her be successful in her decision.
Robin Bentley
>I picked this out, because I wonder if there is an alternative to her
> Our daughter is 16 going on 17 - By way of background our country
> has a standard for admitting people under twenty to university (your
> equivalent of college)
going to university *right now*? If she can be admitted as a "mature
student" at 20, are there jobs or volunteer work she can do to put on
her resume until then?
The hoops for a mature student are not the same as for kids coming out
of high school. It might be worth exploring.
Does New Zealand have the equivalent of community college classes that
she could attend in the meantime? Sometimes, classes are transferable
to a university program.
Robin B.
Ward
Thank you Sandra, Jenny and Robyn for you input. You have all in different ways reinforced the postion I was coming through myself. Robyn, I have suggested the community college option - she could do a course in journalism for six months in a class of 15, probably have quite a lot of fun, get some credits which the university will look at but will not at this stage confirm they will accept. It looked quite a good option to me but doesn't suit dd's need for certainty
So at this stage we are tentaively enrolled in Correpondence Courses for Englsih, History and Music. I have a feeling that the deletion of math wil make a much bigger difference than dd expects. It was definitely a chore and a bore. I am also planning to get a tutor maybe once a week or once a fortnight to come in so she can bounce some ideas off someone different. She will still have her music, singing, drama and karate to keep her in touch with the real world so here's hoping it will all work out a bit happier than this year.
Jenny I will try to help her remember why
she chose the way she did and help her to see that it can still be a
good one.I have quite a lot of experience in the being the guide, to
and the cheering squad, and the meal maker and area
cleaner, and shuttle runner, and errand maker, all to help things go
smoother. I just need to learn the chill through the angst bit.
On reflection I maybe gave her the opportunity to explore too many choices and she has felt a bit scared and overwhelmed by it all. Now the enrolment stuff has been accepted for the correspondence courses she seems back on a more even keel.
Thanks again to you all,
Julie
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So at this stage we are tentaively enrolled in Correpondence Courses for Englsih, History and Music. I have a feeling that the deletion of math wil make a much bigger difference than dd expects. It was definitely a chore and a bore. I am also planning to get a tutor maybe once a week or once a fortnight to come in so she can bounce some ideas off someone different. She will still have her music, singing, drama and karate to keep her in touch with the real world so here's hoping it will all work out a bit happier than this year.
Jenny I will try to help her remember why
she chose the way she did and help her to see that it can still be a
good one.I have quite a lot of experience in the being the guide, to
and the cheering squad, and the meal maker and area
cleaner, and shuttle runner, and errand maker, all to help things go
smoother. I just need to learn the chill through the angst bit.
On reflection I maybe gave her the opportunity to explore too many choices and she has felt a bit scared and overwhelmed by it all. Now the enrolment stuff has been accepted for the correspondence courses she seems back on a more even keel.
Thanks again to you all,
Julie
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 10, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Ward wrote:
I suspect you need to disengage a bit - this is HER choice. Help her
if and when she wants help to make it work, but don't take
responsibility for it. If you're trying to help and she's resisting,
for example, then back off and let her do or not do it as she wants.
I can't "get" what made you all so miserable. If she wants to do it,
why would she be miserable? If she doesn't want to, then why do it?
What is your role? Why would it cause stress for you?
-pam
> So at this stage we are tentaively enrolled in CorrepondenceWe?
> Courses for Englsih, History and Music
I suspect you need to disengage a bit - this is HER choice. Help her
if and when she wants help to make it work, but don't take
responsibility for it. If you're trying to help and she's resisting,
for example, then back off and let her do or not do it as she wants.
I can't "get" what made you all so miserable. If she wants to do it,
why would she be miserable? If she doesn't want to, then why do it?
What is your role? Why would it cause stress for you?
-pam
Ward
Hi Pam,
You said:
I can't "get" what made you all so miserable. If she wants to do it,
why would she be miserable? If she doesn't want to, then why do it?
What is your role? Why would it cause stress for you?
I will try to explain - the analogy that comes to mind is that I want to be thin but I don't want to diet. Dd wants to go to university and study writng but to do that she either has to wait until she is 20 which she is not inclined to do or as Sandra has said she can take some classes to get the credits. Getting the credits to date has been all hard slog.
Sandra suggested :
Find some honest,
clear options for her, present them to her, and then don't live
between her and the choice. It's an adult version of "Do you want to
wear the pink coat or the black one?"
I can live with that but teens can be inclined to blame their parent for choices they are not happy with and spend hours glowering. Maybe I do just need to disengage. I will mull on that.
Julie
You said:
I can't "get" what made you all so miserable. If she wants to do it,
why would she be miserable? If she doesn't want to, then why do it?
What is your role? Why would it cause stress for you?
I will try to explain - the analogy that comes to mind is that I want to be thin but I don't want to diet. Dd wants to go to university and study writng but to do that she either has to wait until she is 20 which she is not inclined to do or as Sandra has said she can take some classes to get the credits. Getting the credits to date has been all hard slog.
Sandra suggested :
Find some honest,
clear options for her, present them to her, and then don't live
between her and the choice. It's an adult version of "Do you want to
wear the pink coat or the black one?"
I can live with that but teens can be inclined to blame their parent for choices they are not happy with and spend hours glowering. Maybe I do just need to disengage. I will mull on that.
Julie
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Teens
On Dec 10, 2008, at 5:51 PM, Ward wrote:
> So at this stage we are tentaively enrolled in Correpondence
> Courses for Englsih, History and Music
We?
I suspect you need to disengage a bit - this is HER choice. Help her
if and when she wants help to make it work, but don't take
responsibility for it. If you're trying to help and she's resisting,
for example, then back off and let her do or not do it as she wants.
I can't "get" what made you all so miserable. If she wants to do it,
why would she be miserable? If she doesn't want to, then why do it?
What is your role? Why would it cause stress for you?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 10, 2008, at 11:32 PM, Ward wrote:
I mean - knowing how to be detached and supportive, at the same time.
I'm just sensing that you're maybe not making it easier for her by
maybe taking on the angst and stress that really ought to be hers, not
yours? If you keep your perspective clear and more simple, maybe you
can help her let go of the stress more - maybe you're sort of adding
to it instead of being the calming influence that helps her settle
down and be comfortable with her own choice.
As a mom to three young women who are VERY intense - high energy,
emotional types - I have had to learn to do this over and over.
Sometimes it means leaving the room, getting out of earshot, when they
are vocalizing their frustration or misery. Roxana, for example, is
taking an algebra class. She doesn't care much for it - actually, she
sort of likes the math but the teacher is way over the edge of
ridiculous in her demands for homework and tests being formatted
exactly her way. So, Rox will be doing homework and start getting
cranky and irritated and start moaning and groaning out loud. I might
make a couple of sympathetic sounds, and I'll certainly sharpen her
broken pencil and bring her a cup of tea, but I don't let myself get
hooked so much that I'm also experiencing her frustration. Sometimes I
have to leave the room, get out of earshot, to keep from being sucked
in. When I talk to her, at times like that, I am careful to keep my
voice sympathetic, but also relaxed and confident that she can handle
it. I might say, "Yeah, frustrating, huh?" But not much more than that.
I still don't think we've got the complete picture of what's going on
with you and your daughter. You said; "I can live with that but teens
can be inclined to blame their parent for choices they are not happy
with and spend hours glowering."
That's not my experience. Not when they are clearly the ones who made
the choice. I don't see why any of the results of her choice get
thrown back at you unless she felt pressured by you to make that
choice or to stick with it or something?
If my kid is glowering, I might ask, "What can I do to make it
better?" Again, I'd be as supportive as I could be short of taking ON
her unhappiness, myself.
If my kid was spending hours glowering at me over the misery of the
school work she'd chosen to take on, being unreasonable in targeting
me since the choice was entirely hers, then I'd find somewhere else to
be until she got over it. It won't do her or me any good for me to get
all worked up, too.
Hoping this is helpful as this detach/support balance has been
something I had to work hard on, myself.
-pam
> I can live with that but teens can be inclined to blame their parentIt is an art! <G>
> for choices they are not happy with and spend hours glowering. Maybe
> I do just need to disengage. I will mull on that.
I mean - knowing how to be detached and supportive, at the same time.
I'm just sensing that you're maybe not making it easier for her by
maybe taking on the angst and stress that really ought to be hers, not
yours? If you keep your perspective clear and more simple, maybe you
can help her let go of the stress more - maybe you're sort of adding
to it instead of being the calming influence that helps her settle
down and be comfortable with her own choice.
As a mom to three young women who are VERY intense - high energy,
emotional types - I have had to learn to do this over and over.
Sometimes it means leaving the room, getting out of earshot, when they
are vocalizing their frustration or misery. Roxana, for example, is
taking an algebra class. She doesn't care much for it - actually, she
sort of likes the math but the teacher is way over the edge of
ridiculous in her demands for homework and tests being formatted
exactly her way. So, Rox will be doing homework and start getting
cranky and irritated and start moaning and groaning out loud. I might
make a couple of sympathetic sounds, and I'll certainly sharpen her
broken pencil and bring her a cup of tea, but I don't let myself get
hooked so much that I'm also experiencing her frustration. Sometimes I
have to leave the room, get out of earshot, to keep from being sucked
in. When I talk to her, at times like that, I am careful to keep my
voice sympathetic, but also relaxed and confident that she can handle
it. I might say, "Yeah, frustrating, huh?" But not much more than that.
I still don't think we've got the complete picture of what's going on
with you and your daughter. You said; "I can live with that but teens
can be inclined to blame their parent for choices they are not happy
with and spend hours glowering."
That's not my experience. Not when they are clearly the ones who made
the choice. I don't see why any of the results of her choice get
thrown back at you unless she felt pressured by you to make that
choice or to stick with it or something?
If my kid is glowering, I might ask, "What can I do to make it
better?" Again, I'd be as supportive as I could be short of taking ON
her unhappiness, myself.
If my kid was spending hours glowering at me over the misery of the
school work she'd chosen to take on, being unreasonable in targeting
me since the choice was entirely hers, then I'd find somewhere else to
be until she got over it. It won't do her or me any good for me to get
all worked up, too.
Hoping this is helpful as this detach/support balance has been
something I had to work hard on, myself.
-pam
k
A friend (unknowingly) mentored me in supportive detached role
playing. I've used it in parenting some but mostly while relating to
friends whose big deal is to be sad or critical. I was privileged to
see how she interacted with her teens who were (and still are
sometimes) angsty and down. She amazes me with her ability to listen
for seemingly hours (torturous to me) to her kids going on and on
about how bad they had/have it and *not* get caught up in it too.
Most of it seems to be about perspective. That whether it's for good
or ill, there are solutions to almost any problem, and where there
aren't desirable solutions, one can usually manage to go on
nonetheless and be fine anyway somehow. I get the feeling most of the
time that she is waiting Buddha-like for the enlightenment of others
to unfold, as she listens, makes stuff to eat, has coffee, whatever
she finds to do. And in the meantime, she enjoys the company, not of
their misery, but of them.
That it's possible to do that is very inspirational.
~Katherine
playing. I've used it in parenting some but mostly while relating to
friends whose big deal is to be sad or critical. I was privileged to
see how she interacted with her teens who were (and still are
sometimes) angsty and down. She amazes me with her ability to listen
for seemingly hours (torturous to me) to her kids going on and on
about how bad they had/have it and *not* get caught up in it too.
Most of it seems to be about perspective. That whether it's for good
or ill, there are solutions to almost any problem, and where there
aren't desirable solutions, one can usually manage to go on
nonetheless and be fine anyway somehow. I get the feeling most of the
time that she is waiting Buddha-like for the enlightenment of others
to unfold, as she listens, makes stuff to eat, has coffee, whatever
she finds to do. And in the meantime, she enjoys the company, not of
their misery, but of them.
That it's possible to do that is very inspirational.
~Katherine
On 12/11/08, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
On Dec 10, 2008, at 11:32 PM, Ward wrote:
I can live with that but teens can be inclined to blame their parent
for choices they are not happy with and spend hours glowering. Maybe
I do just need to disengage. I will mull on that.
It is an art! <G>
I mean - knowing how to be detached and supportive, at the same time.
I'm just sensing that you're maybe not making it easier for her by
maybe taking on the angst and stress that really ought to be hers, not
yours? If you keep your perspective clear and more simple, maybe you
can help her let go of the stress more - maybe you're sort of adding
to it instead of being the calming influence that helps her settle
down and be comfortable with her own choice.
As a mom to three young women who are VERY intense - high energy,
emotional types - I have had to learn to do this over and over.
Sometimes it means leaving the room, getting out of earshot, when they
are vocalizing their frustration or misery. Roxana, for example, is
taking an algebra class. She doesn't care much for it - actually, she
sort of likes the math but the teacher is way over the edge of
ridiculous in her demands for homework and tests being formatted
exactly her way. So, Rox will be doing homework and start getting
cranky and irritated and start moaning and groaning out loud. I might
make a couple of sympathetic sounds, and I'll certainly sharpen her
broken pencil and bring her a cup of tea, but I don't let myself get
hooked so much that I'm also experiencing her frustration. Sometimes I
have to leave the room, get out of earshot, to keep from being sucked
in. When I talk to her, at times like that, I am careful to keep my
voice sympathetic, but also relaxed and confident that she can handle
it. I might say, "Yeah, frustrating, huh?" But not much more than that.
I still don't think we've got the complete picture of what's going on
with you and your daughter. You said; "I can live with that but teens
can be inclined to blame their parent for choices they are not happy
with and spend hours glowering."
That's not my experience. Not when they are clearly the ones who made
the choice. I don't see why any of the results of her choice get
thrown back at you unless she felt pressured by you to make that
choice or to stick with it or something?
If my kid is glowering, I might ask, "What can I do to make it
better?" Again, I'd be as supportive as I could be short of taking ON
her unhappiness, myself.
If my kid was spending hours glowering at me over the misery of the
school work she'd chosen to take on, being unreasonable in targeting
me since the choice was entirely hers, then I'd find somewhere else to
be until she got over it. It won't do her or me any good for me to get
all worked up, too.
Hoping this is helpful as this detach/support balance has been
something I had to work hard on, myself.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-Dd wants to go to university and study writng but to do that she
either has to wait until she is 20 which she is not inclined to do or
as Sandra has said she can take some classes to get the credits.-=-
Those are not the only two choices at all, though.
If it were my child, I would start to collect stories of writers--
which became better writers from taking writing courses at
universities, and which just wrote and wrote, or learned from friends
and editors or reading other authors.
-=-Sandra suggested :
Find some honest,
clear options for her, present them to her, and then don't live
between her and the choice. It's an adult version of "Do you want to
wear the pink coat or the black one?"-=-
That was my suggestion to get you out of the middle of her
indecision. It wasn't the way to get her into college. It was
brought here as a way to calm YOU down and help her stop waffling and
whining (which it seems from what you wrote is part of the problem--
she's saying "yeah, but" and "no, because."
-=-can live with that but teens can be inclined to blame their parent
for choices they are not happy with and spend hours glowering. Maybe
I do just need to disengage. I will mull on that.-=-
Co-dependency might be something to read about. It seems you won't
be happy until she's happy, and that's not healthy for either of
you. It's like you're locked in an awkward wrestling hold and you're
still trying to pretend to be relaxed and to eat, in that awkward
position, and read, and watch TV, but you're totally in each others'
way. (I could be wrong but it's an impression I'm getting from the
way you're writing and responding.)
-=-Find some honest, clear options for her, present them to her, and
then don't live between her and the choice. It's an adult version of
"Do you want to wear the pink coat or the black one?"-=-
That might've seemed that I was saying "find THE TWO clear options
and force her to choose." I wasn't.
If she's totally directionless, saying "You could go north or you
could go south" might cause her to think "Oh. Right. Choose a
direction. It seems East northeast is a good one." But the point
would be SHE would be doing the choosing, not you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
either has to wait until she is 20 which she is not inclined to do or
as Sandra has said she can take some classes to get the credits.-=-
Those are not the only two choices at all, though.
If it were my child, I would start to collect stories of writers--
which became better writers from taking writing courses at
universities, and which just wrote and wrote, or learned from friends
and editors or reading other authors.
-=-Sandra suggested :
Find some honest,
clear options for her, present them to her, and then don't live
between her and the choice. It's an adult version of "Do you want to
wear the pink coat or the black one?"-=-
That was my suggestion to get you out of the middle of her
indecision. It wasn't the way to get her into college. It was
brought here as a way to calm YOU down and help her stop waffling and
whining (which it seems from what you wrote is part of the problem--
she's saying "yeah, but" and "no, because."
-=-can live with that but teens can be inclined to blame their parent
for choices they are not happy with and spend hours glowering. Maybe
I do just need to disengage. I will mull on that.-=-
Co-dependency might be something to read about. It seems you won't
be happy until she's happy, and that's not healthy for either of
you. It's like you're locked in an awkward wrestling hold and you're
still trying to pretend to be relaxed and to eat, in that awkward
position, and read, and watch TV, but you're totally in each others'
way. (I could be wrong but it's an impression I'm getting from the
way you're writing and responding.)
-=-Find some honest, clear options for her, present them to her, and
then don't live between her and the choice. It's an adult version of
"Do you want to wear the pink coat or the black one?"-=-
That might've seemed that I was saying "find THE TWO clear options
and force her to choose." I wasn't.
If she's totally directionless, saying "You could go north or you
could go south" might cause her to think "Oh. Right. Choose a
direction. It seems East northeast is a good one." But the point
would be SHE would be doing the choosing, not you.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I was privileged to
see how she interacted with her teens who were (and still are
sometimes) angsty and down. She amazes me with her ability to listen
for seemingly hours (torturous to me) to her kids going on and on
about how bad they had/have it and *not* get caught up in it too.-=-
I think after half an hour it's kind of cruel not to find ways to try
to bring them up, if she knows how. I think if it goes on for days
or weeks or months and she's waiting Buddha-like.... if it were me,
I'd feel sadistic, knowing that misery in the moment makes life
miserable, and "waiting" (kind of gambling that they'll snap out of
it on their own or live long enough for circumstances to happen to
cheer them up).
My kids are happy largely because Keith and I have been happy. We've
found ways to see joy in normal little things, and we've always
helped our kids do that too. When they were vaguely unhappy, we've
moved toward more happy, not maintenance of vague unhappiness.
-=-Most of it seems to be about perspective. That whether it's for
good or ill, there are solutions to almost any problem, and where
there aren't desirable solutions, one can usually manage to go on
nonetheless and be fine anyway somehow. -=-
Sometimes there's nothing but time to help, like after a breakup with
a boyfriend, or a friend moving away, or loss of a job or
something. Those do need for time to pass. But some other
situations are from circular, muddled thinking and that can be
related (coming or going) to depression, or it can just set a yucky
tone for the rest of the family.
A friend of mine, when people want to moan and complain and
criticize, will listen for ten or fifteen minutes, and then say
"Okay, now say something good about him(/her/it)." It helps.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
see how she interacted with her teens who were (and still are
sometimes) angsty and down. She amazes me with her ability to listen
for seemingly hours (torturous to me) to her kids going on and on
about how bad they had/have it and *not* get caught up in it too.-=-
I think after half an hour it's kind of cruel not to find ways to try
to bring them up, if she knows how. I think if it goes on for days
or weeks or months and she's waiting Buddha-like.... if it were me,
I'd feel sadistic, knowing that misery in the moment makes life
miserable, and "waiting" (kind of gambling that they'll snap out of
it on their own or live long enough for circumstances to happen to
cheer them up).
My kids are happy largely because Keith and I have been happy. We've
found ways to see joy in normal little things, and we've always
helped our kids do that too. When they were vaguely unhappy, we've
moved toward more happy, not maintenance of vague unhappiness.
-=-Most of it seems to be about perspective. That whether it's for
good or ill, there are solutions to almost any problem, and where
there aren't desirable solutions, one can usually manage to go on
nonetheless and be fine anyway somehow. -=-
Sometimes there's nothing but time to help, like after a breakup with
a boyfriend, or a friend moving away, or loss of a job or
something. Those do need for time to pass. But some other
situations are from circular, muddled thinking and that can be
related (coming or going) to depression, or it can just set a yucky
tone for the rest of the family.
A friend of mine, when people want to moan and complain and
criticize, will listen for ten or fifteen minutes, and then say
"Okay, now say something good about him(/her/it)." It helps.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
Replying between quotes. Not my favorite thing to do.
On 12/11/08, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> A friend of mine, when people want to moan and complain and
> criticize, will listen for ten or fifteen minutes, and then say
> "Okay, now say something good about him(/her/it)." It helps.
Good ideas for growing healthy people, and with people who probably
need someplace else to be than around their own kids, it may fall on
deaf ears the majority of the time. It was a way for my friend to
avoid inserting herself into senseless arguments, and now the reason
for the insanity is no longer there and things are very different and
happier.
In general, it really does help.... even with adults though that's
sort of taboo, telling adults a good thought in the midst of muddled
thinking or unthinking chatter. Sometimes, depending on where I am
and who I am to the people I'm talking with, I say "so why or what do
you do xyz?" or "what keeps you going?" or "what do you *like* about
it or them or whatever?"
I agree that can really help switch tracks, and maybe even spur some
personal growth and change. It's a great thing to do within oneself
when thinking for long periods about bad things.
~Katherine
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 11, 2008, at 5:48 AM, k wrote:
not so much. Sometimes I unobtrusively signal him - "Shhhh. Just wait.
Be calm."
-pam
> Most of it seems to be about perspective. That whether it's for goodYes - this is so well put. I have learned to do this, too. My husband,
> or ill, there are solutions to almost any problem, and where there
> aren't desirable solutions, one can usually manage to go on
> nonetheless and be fine anyway somehow. I get the feeling most of the
> time that she is waiting Buddha-like for the enlightenment of others
> to unfold, as she listens, makes stuff to eat, has coffee, whatever
> she finds to do.
not so much. Sometimes I unobtrusively signal him - "Shhhh. Just wait.
Be calm."
-pam
Jenny C
> Co-dependency might be something to read about. It seems you won'tI've always been a pretty happy upbeat kind of person, and if not
> be happy until she's happy, and that's not healthy for either of
> you. It's like you're locked in an awkward wrestling hold and you're
> still trying to pretend to be relaxed and to eat, in that awkward
> position, and read, and watch TV, but you're totally in each others'
> way. (I could be wrong but it's an impression I'm getting from the
> way you're writing and responding.)
happily upbeat, complacent, but generally not sad or down.
It's easy to want to make everyone else around you happy too, and
sometimes it's hard to really understand why others aren't just happy.
It's an uncomfortable place to be, when others around you aren't
experiencing the happy peaceful existence you are. Over the years, I've
learned better how to not let that get me down.
The last year, Chamille has really learned how to counter her negative
feelings. She'd get stuck in a downward spiral and there was really
nothing that I did that pulled her out, except to not go there with her.
If I was able to maintain a calm happy, she'd eventually pull herself
up, I think, largely because she could visibly see that she was down,
since I was happy and up. She knew where to go because she was able to
see that she had spiralled down.
I think, if kids aren't able to see that they've gone to that sad place,
because everyone is commiserating, and there with them, then the compass
is broken. These days, Chamille is really good at being her own
compass, and that's really cool to see. That doesn't mean that she
doesn't get stuck here and there or upset or angsty, it means that she
is more apt to recognize and change herself accordingly!
k
Learning does take time. Developing the capacity to wait and see what
happens is something people may forget or have little of.
Sometimes it absolutely floors me what I learn, you know, not looking
for it. Yesterday Karl encountered the word "continue" while playing
Mario. Mommy, what does continue mean? I have no idea how he knows
what the word is in the first place. I didn't tell him. His dad was
at work.
And no I wasn't in the Twilight Zone. I know it would take several of
a variety of encounters before Karl knows that word well.
I'm reading Frank Smith on reading, and rethinking and unlearning
things I thought I knew about phonics (after taking linguistics last
semester). Maybe Frank was on to something. He says it takes time,
a little help and patience. Ok, so I'm in no hurry for him to know
that word. :)
~Katherine
happens is something people may forget or have little of.
Sometimes it absolutely floors me what I learn, you know, not looking
for it. Yesterday Karl encountered the word "continue" while playing
Mario. Mommy, what does continue mean? I have no idea how he knows
what the word is in the first place. I didn't tell him. His dad was
at work.
And no I wasn't in the Twilight Zone. I know it would take several of
a variety of encounters before Karl knows that word well.
I'm reading Frank Smith on reading, and rethinking and unlearning
things I thought I knew about phonics (after taking linguistics last
semester). Maybe Frank was on to something. He says it takes time,
a little help and patience. Ok, so I'm in no hurry for him to know
that word. :)
~Katherine
On 12/11/08, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On Dec 11, 2008, at 5:48 AM, k wrote:
>
> > Most of it seems to be about perspective. That whether it's for good
> > or ill, there are solutions to almost any problem, and where there
> > aren't desirable solutions, one can usually manage to go on
> > nonetheless and be fine anyway somehow. I get the feeling most of the
> > time that she is waiting Buddha-like for the enlightenment of others
> > to unfold, as she listens, makes stuff to eat, has coffee, whatever
> > she finds to do.
>
>
> Yes - this is so well put. I have learned to do this, too. My husband,
> not so much. Sometimes I unobtrusively signal him - "Shhhh. Just wait.
> Be calm."
>
>
> -pam
Jenny C
> for it. Yesterday Karl encountered the word "continue" while playingIsn't the word "continue" a part of video gaming in general? You come
> Mario. Mommy, what does continue mean? I have no idea how he knows
> what the word is in the first place. I didn't tell him. His dad was
> at work.
to points in the game where you either need to quit/save or continue
playing and you have to use your handheld remote to check continue.
That would give him a pretty good definition of continue right there,
with it's opposite right along side of the action of continuing or not.
I remember one of my kids, maybe even both of them have asked what
continue is, while playing video games, and I'd say, it means you want
to keep playing, so unless you're done playing, click that. Sometimes,
it's been the word "resume", which is similar, and because they already
knew the difference between quit and continue, they made the connection
between quit and resume offering the same choices.
And now that I'm thinking about it, it could've just as easily been the
other way around... with Margaux for sure it was continue first, then
resume, Chamille's older and I forgot! I guess it was whatever was on
Pokemon gameboy games and Spyro for PS!
Nancy Wooton
On Dec 11, 2008, at 11:06 AM, Jenny C wrote:
jumped out at me: Why didn't the O.P. tell her son what "continue"
means? And what does dad being at work have to do with answering a
simple question?
I remember the standard parent/teacher answer was "Look it up," said
with (usually) good intentions of furthering the kid's education and
dictionary skills. It's annoying to a kid, and only makes 'em think
the parent just doesn't know but won't admit it <g> I always told
them if I did know, and looked it up for or with them if I didn't.
Nancy
>>I'm only skimming lately so I don't know the context of this, but it
>> for it. Yesterday Karl encountered the word "continue" while playing
>> Mario. Mommy, what does continue mean? I have no idea how he knows
>> what the word is in the first place. I didn't tell him. His dad was
>> at work.
jumped out at me: Why didn't the O.P. tell her son what "continue"
means? And what does dad being at work have to do with answering a
simple question?
I remember the standard parent/teacher answer was "Look it up," said
with (usually) good intentions of furthering the kid's education and
dictionary skills. It's annoying to a kid, and only makes 'em think
the parent just doesn't know but won't admit it <g> I always told
them if I did know, and looked it up for or with them if I didn't.
Nancy
Pamela Sorooshian
On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
with that and wasn't suggesting that. So - clarification:
My assumption was that help is always offered, real ideas, new ways of
looking at the problem, questions asked that might help the person
think about it more productively, etc. So - I'm for sure not
suggesting not helping. My comments about detachment have to do with
the emotional aspect of it - how to be sympathetic and caring without
being caught up in the emotions ourselves. How to stay clear-headed
and not feel our kids' emotions so strongly that we are just as unable
to consider options as they are.
Also, it can sometimes be apparent that the kid isn't actually looking
for solutions and doesn't want to make a change, but wants sympathy
for their "plight" (the plight they've chosen to be in). Roxana has
decided to go to a university in the fall to study acting and musical
theater. She's decided to finish all the general education
requirements in her last semester at the community college so that
she'll have only theater-related courses when she is at the
university. All her choice - all to do something she's SUPER excited
and thrilled to do. If, halfway through the semester, she is moaning
and groaning about how awful her teacher is, in one of those last few
courses, if she is frustrated at the teacher's grading policies, or if
she's bored out of her mind and wishes with all her heart that it was
just over, then that is the time I'd use that "Buddha-like
detachment." I mean, if there is anything I could do to help make it
more comfortable for her, I'd offer that. But, I can imagine that
there will be times during the semester that she'll really gripe and
complain, but not want help or solutions, just sympathy. These are the
times I have to watch myself, not to let myself get worked up and add
to the emotional upheaval and drama in the house. That's the time I
need to find my own center, be confident and calm that she'll get
through this. I can do the helpful things - make sure she's getting
fed well, help her get enough sleep, suggest any real options that I
might think of. But I don't do anybody any good by getting my own
emotions involved, by feeling frustrated or angry, myself.
My kids will sometimes ask, "Mom, can I just rant for a minute without
you getting all upset?" That's because I am quick to want to take
action, to solve the problem. One of my kids got a "B" instead of an
"A" in a design course because the teacher didn't give clear
instructions about how to sign in and out of the lab. (My kid was the
only person in the class that semester who hadn't taken the class
previously.) She didn't want to appeal the grade or complain about it
to the teacher, but she was upset about it. I'm a person who takes
action when I'm upset; she really wanted to be able to complain to me,
but didn't want me to tell her what to do about it. I said, "You could
talk to the teacher about it." She said, "I feel stupid that I didn't
understand." I said, "She thought you knew, she wouldn't want you to
get a lower grade than you deserve." Roxana said, "I'm fine. I'll take
the B." But she was emotional about it and I was picking that up and
getting upset on her behalf and getting upset with her that she would
be upset but not do something about it.
There are a couple of things I have to say about this kind of
situation - but the most important is that the parent needs to find
their own center and not drift over to taking on the emotions of their
child. That's too much empathy. Second is that there is only so much
"emotional ranting" that is reasonable to be expected to listen to - I
have said, "Okay, is it time to move on? Can you choose to be happier
right now?" That might seem cruel, like it is discounting their
feelings, but I know that my kids can get caught up themselves in the
emotions and find it hard to let go. That kind of emotion, negative as
it is, is a rush, maybe it is adrenaline, and comes with a feeling of
importance and significance, and self-righteousness. Again, though, I
can really only help them move on if I'm not also caught up in it.
Another thing is that some people are intellectually quick-thinking
and others process ideas more slowly. In the same way, some people
have flashes of emotion and move quickly back to equilibrium while
others build emotions slowly and/or get over them slowly. I have a kid
who is quick-thinking in the intellectual realm and slow to process
through her emotions. So, in the first few minutes of some upset I
might offer a bunch of ideas for solutions - she'll hear those and
process them. But she might not "get over" the emotions for quite a
while after that, even when the solutions make perfect intellectual
sense to her. If I keep repeating the ideas, as if she didn't
understand them, that also frustrates her and makes her more upset.
So, I offer ideas, and I know she heard them and is considering them.
But then I back off and give her time and space to recover her
equilibrium. If I'm all upset emotionally, too, then it is going to be
hard for me to back off - but what my kid needs from me at that point
is to be calm, offer a cookie, smile benevolently, be more buddha-like.
-pam
>> I get the feeling most of theSandra objected that it is cruel to just wait and not help. I agree
>> time that she is waiting Buddha-like for the enlightenment of others
>> to unfold, as she listens, makes stuff to eat, has coffee, whatever
>> she finds to do.
>
> Yes - this is so well put. I have learned to do this, too. My husband,
> not so much. Sometimes I unobtrusively signal him - "Shhhh. Just wait.
> Be calm."
with that and wasn't suggesting that. So - clarification:
My assumption was that help is always offered, real ideas, new ways of
looking at the problem, questions asked that might help the person
think about it more productively, etc. So - I'm for sure not
suggesting not helping. My comments about detachment have to do with
the emotional aspect of it - how to be sympathetic and caring without
being caught up in the emotions ourselves. How to stay clear-headed
and not feel our kids' emotions so strongly that we are just as unable
to consider options as they are.
Also, it can sometimes be apparent that the kid isn't actually looking
for solutions and doesn't want to make a change, but wants sympathy
for their "plight" (the plight they've chosen to be in). Roxana has
decided to go to a university in the fall to study acting and musical
theater. She's decided to finish all the general education
requirements in her last semester at the community college so that
she'll have only theater-related courses when she is at the
university. All her choice - all to do something she's SUPER excited
and thrilled to do. If, halfway through the semester, she is moaning
and groaning about how awful her teacher is, in one of those last few
courses, if she is frustrated at the teacher's grading policies, or if
she's bored out of her mind and wishes with all her heart that it was
just over, then that is the time I'd use that "Buddha-like
detachment." I mean, if there is anything I could do to help make it
more comfortable for her, I'd offer that. But, I can imagine that
there will be times during the semester that she'll really gripe and
complain, but not want help or solutions, just sympathy. These are the
times I have to watch myself, not to let myself get worked up and add
to the emotional upheaval and drama in the house. That's the time I
need to find my own center, be confident and calm that she'll get
through this. I can do the helpful things - make sure she's getting
fed well, help her get enough sleep, suggest any real options that I
might think of. But I don't do anybody any good by getting my own
emotions involved, by feeling frustrated or angry, myself.
My kids will sometimes ask, "Mom, can I just rant for a minute without
you getting all upset?" That's because I am quick to want to take
action, to solve the problem. One of my kids got a "B" instead of an
"A" in a design course because the teacher didn't give clear
instructions about how to sign in and out of the lab. (My kid was the
only person in the class that semester who hadn't taken the class
previously.) She didn't want to appeal the grade or complain about it
to the teacher, but she was upset about it. I'm a person who takes
action when I'm upset; she really wanted to be able to complain to me,
but didn't want me to tell her what to do about it. I said, "You could
talk to the teacher about it." She said, "I feel stupid that I didn't
understand." I said, "She thought you knew, she wouldn't want you to
get a lower grade than you deserve." Roxana said, "I'm fine. I'll take
the B." But she was emotional about it and I was picking that up and
getting upset on her behalf and getting upset with her that she would
be upset but not do something about it.
There are a couple of things I have to say about this kind of
situation - but the most important is that the parent needs to find
their own center and not drift over to taking on the emotions of their
child. That's too much empathy. Second is that there is only so much
"emotional ranting" that is reasonable to be expected to listen to - I
have said, "Okay, is it time to move on? Can you choose to be happier
right now?" That might seem cruel, like it is discounting their
feelings, but I know that my kids can get caught up themselves in the
emotions and find it hard to let go. That kind of emotion, negative as
it is, is a rush, maybe it is adrenaline, and comes with a feeling of
importance and significance, and self-righteousness. Again, though, I
can really only help them move on if I'm not also caught up in it.
Another thing is that some people are intellectually quick-thinking
and others process ideas more slowly. In the same way, some people
have flashes of emotion and move quickly back to equilibrium while
others build emotions slowly and/or get over them slowly. I have a kid
who is quick-thinking in the intellectual realm and slow to process
through her emotions. So, in the first few minutes of some upset I
might offer a bunch of ideas for solutions - she'll hear those and
process them. But she might not "get over" the emotions for quite a
while after that, even when the solutions make perfect intellectual
sense to her. If I keep repeating the ideas, as if she didn't
understand them, that also frustrates her and makes her more upset.
So, I offer ideas, and I know she heard them and is considering them.
But then I back off and give her time and space to recover her
equilibrium. If I'm all upset emotionally, too, then it is going to be
hard for me to back off - but what my kid needs from me at that point
is to be calm, offer a cookie, smile benevolently, be more buddha-like.
-pam
k
>> Second is that there is only so much "emotional ranting" that is reasonable to be expected to listen to - I have said, "Okay, is it time to move on? Can you choose to be happierright now?" That might seem cruel, like it is discounting their
feelings, but I know that my kids can get caught up themselves in the
emotions and find it hard to let go. That kind of emotion, negative as
it is, is a rush, maybe it is adrenaline, and comes with a feeling of
importance and significance, and self-righteousness. <<
Ah, the same friend said to me "You don't have to get upset... that's
your choice, you know." I was driving or I don't think she would have
said anything. Self-preservation and all.
~Katherine
Tiffani
I would like to explore the world of teens for a bit.
I have a wonderful 16 and a 1/2 year old. He is a very polite young man and we have a great relationship. Here is my dilemma.
He is extremely busy. He now takes college classes, has a job and a girlfriend who he loves very much.(these are things that Mom can not be involved in) He is always on the go. I miss him. When I support what he is doing he is happy easy going. When I try to hold on to him and keep him close(for no good reason but me wanting him home with me) he gets quite unhappy and pulls away and hides in his room. When he is home because he wants to be he is out and engaged with the family. How did those of you with great relationship with your adult children handle this time of your child's life?
I have a wonderful 16 and a 1/2 year old. He is a very polite young man and we have a great relationship. Here is my dilemma.
He is extremely busy. He now takes college classes, has a job and a girlfriend who he loves very much.(these are things that Mom can not be involved in) He is always on the go. I miss him. When I support what he is doing he is happy easy going. When I try to hold on to him and keep him close(for no good reason but me wanting him home with me) he gets quite unhappy and pulls away and hides in his room. When he is home because he wants to be he is out and engaged with the family. How did those of you with great relationship with your adult children handle this time of your child's life?
k
I don't have a teen. I have a 6 year old son. However I went through a lot
of garbage with my parents holding me away from what I wanted to do for
years (for lots of reasons but the particular reasons don't matter).
What are you interested in? No need to answer online ... maybe journal on
that question. It's hard if your life has been nothing but your child for
that child's entire lifetime and then suddenly the child's interests have
grown into all kinds of wonderful things that aren't located near you or
where you could insert yourself very easily or at all and still be welcome.
It might even seem like rejection but that's not what it is: it's what your
child wants that just so happens to lead in a direction away from you. It's
coincidental.
If you are a more visual person when it comes to your own interests try
Barbara Sher books or look here: http://www.barbarasher.com/ I like some of
the ideas she has for making plans for a person like me who doesn't tend to
organize things like that well are worth considering. Distract yourself
with your favorite pastimes.
~Katherine
of garbage with my parents holding me away from what I wanted to do for
years (for lots of reasons but the particular reasons don't matter).
What are you interested in? No need to answer online ... maybe journal on
that question. It's hard if your life has been nothing but your child for
that child's entire lifetime and then suddenly the child's interests have
grown into all kinds of wonderful things that aren't located near you or
where you could insert yourself very easily or at all and still be welcome.
It might even seem like rejection but that's not what it is: it's what your
child wants that just so happens to lead in a direction away from you. It's
coincidental.
If you are a more visual person when it comes to your own interests try
Barbara Sher books or look here: http://www.barbarasher.com/ I like some of
the ideas she has for making plans for a person like me who doesn't tend to
organize things like that well are worth considering. Distract yourself
with your favorite pastimes.
~Katherine
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Tiffani <tiffermom@...> wrote:
> I would like to explore the world of teens for a bit.
>
> I have a wonderful 16 and a 1/2 year old. He is a very polite young man
> and we have a great relationship. Here is my dilemma.
>
> He is extremely busy. He now takes college classes, has a job and a
> girlfriend who he loves very much.(these are things that Mom can not be
> involved in) He is always on the go. I miss him. When I support what he
> is doing he is happy easy going. When I try to hold on to him and keep him
> close(for no good reason but me wanting him home with me) he gets quite
> unhappy and pulls away and hides in his room. When he is home because he
> wants to be he is out and engaged with the family. How did those of you
> with great relationship with your adult children handle this time of your
> child's life?
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
k
I meant to take the words "I like" out of "I like some of the ideas she has
for making plans for a person like me who doesn't tend to organize things
like that well are worth considering." Sorry about that.
~Katherine
for making plans for a person like me who doesn't tend to organize things
like that well are worth considering." Sorry about that.
~Katherine
On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 1:25 PM, k <katherand@...> wrote:
> I don't have a teen. I have a 6 year old son. However I went through a lot
> of garbage with my parents holding me away from what I wanted to do for
> years (for lots of reasons but the particular reasons don't matter).
>
> What are you interested in? No need to answer online ... maybe journal on
> that question. It's hard if your life has been nothing but your child for
> that child's entire lifetime and then suddenly the child's interests have
> grown into all kinds of wonderful things that aren't located near you or
> where you could insert yourself very easily or at all and still be welcome.
> It might even seem like rejection but that's not what it is: it's what your
> child wants that just so happens to lead in a direction away from you. It's
> coincidental.
>
> If you are a more visual person when it comes to your own interests try
> Barbara Sher books or look here: http://www.barbarasher.com/ I like some
> of the ideas she has for making plans for a person like me who doesn't tend
> to organize things like that well are worth considering. Distract yourself
> with your favorite pastimes.
>
> ~Katherine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Tiffani <tiffermom@...> wrote:
>
>> I would like to explore the world of teens for a bit.
>>
>> I have a wonderful 16 and a 1/2 year old. He is a very polite young man
>> and we have a great relationship. Here is my dilemma.
>>
>> He is extremely busy. He now takes college classes, has a job and a
>> girlfriend who he loves very much.(these are things that Mom can not be
>> involved in) He is always on the go. I miss him. When I support what he
>> is doing he is happy easy going. When I try to hold on to him and keep him
>> close(for no good reason but me wanting him home with me) he gets quite
>> unhappy and pulls away and hides in his room. When he is home because he
>> wants to be he is out and engaged with the family. How did those of you
>> with great relationship with your adult children handle this time of your
>> child's life?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Beth Danicke
I pulled back as much as she needed me to. I talked to her about what she
needed from me and when she was going somewhere I offered her a ride or to
pick her up. Sometimes she said great and other times she said no thanks.
I was available to her, but did not pressure her.
It is hard to let your kids grow up, especially the first one, but it is
also exciting. I try to focus on the happy, exciting parts. Over the
weekend I met some of Sarah's new co-workers. She's 18 and has her first
"real" job. They each told me how glad they were to have her working with
them. They described her as funny, kind, responsible and hardworking. It's
great to hear those things from bosses and co-workers. It makes me happy
for her and for everything that she will get to experience from here on.
I think it's okay to feel sad about them growing up, but it's also good to
focus on the happy, exciting parts.
Beth D
-----Original Message-----
How did those of you with great relationship with your adult children handle
this time of your child's life?
needed from me and when she was going somewhere I offered her a ride or to
pick her up. Sometimes she said great and other times she said no thanks.
I was available to her, but did not pressure her.
It is hard to let your kids grow up, especially the first one, but it is
also exciting. I try to focus on the happy, exciting parts. Over the
weekend I met some of Sarah's new co-workers. She's 18 and has her first
"real" job. They each told me how glad they were to have her working with
them. They described her as funny, kind, responsible and hardworking. It's
great to hear those things from bosses and co-workers. It makes me happy
for her and for everything that she will get to experience from here on.
I think it's okay to feel sad about them growing up, but it's also good to
focus on the happy, exciting parts.
Beth D
-----Original Message-----
How did those of you with great relationship with your adult children handle
this time of your child's life?
Sandra Dodd
I had a three year old. I've had three of them. This was true of
them at three:
-=-When I support what he is doing he is happy easy going. When I try
to hold on to him and keep him close (for no good reason but me
wanting [him to be close]) he gets quite unhappy and pulls away -=-
-=- When I try to hold on to him and keep him close(for no good reason
but me wanting him home with me) he gets quite unhappy and pulls away
and hides in his room.-=-
Wanting a teen home with you isn't as healthy for the teen as it might
seem. Without the instinct to leave the nest, all animals would
probably still be home. Even though unschooled teens aren't pushed
out as much as schooled teens seem to be, they're still filled with
the same biochemical realities and they DO naturally want to "try
their wings." Their instinct is to be with people their age, then,
rather than with parents.
With schoolkids and all the related rules about ages and "going out"
the problems often look like grounding and yelling and sneakiness.
Those things never happened at our house (well, occasionally yelling,
but usually that was me and I was really sorry I didn't just shush up).
Without the choice to stay or go, neither a three year old nor a
sixteen year old can choose to stay.
If you want to spend time with a teen, find something really
interesting to do, rather than just asking him to stay home with you.
Marty and I went to look at ghost towns for a few days once. Holly
and I are going to Colorado for five days at the end of the month.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
them at three:
-=-When I support what he is doing he is happy easy going. When I try
to hold on to him and keep him close (for no good reason but me
wanting [him to be close]) he gets quite unhappy and pulls away -=-
-=- When I try to hold on to him and keep him close(for no good reason
but me wanting him home with me) he gets quite unhappy and pulls away
and hides in his room.-=-
Wanting a teen home with you isn't as healthy for the teen as it might
seem. Without the instinct to leave the nest, all animals would
probably still be home. Even though unschooled teens aren't pushed
out as much as schooled teens seem to be, they're still filled with
the same biochemical realities and they DO naturally want to "try
their wings." Their instinct is to be with people their age, then,
rather than with parents.
With schoolkids and all the related rules about ages and "going out"
the problems often look like grounding and yelling and sneakiness.
Those things never happened at our house (well, occasionally yelling,
but usually that was me and I was really sorry I didn't just shush up).
Without the choice to stay or go, neither a three year old nor a
sixteen year old can choose to stay.
If you want to spend time with a teen, find something really
interesting to do, rather than just asking him to stay home with you.
Marty and I went to look at ghost towns for a few days once. Holly
and I are going to Colorado for five days at the end of the month.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dana Hayden
With my first-born,16yr old ds, I have really been focusing on remaining
open to him when he does share a space with me. If he comes into the kitchen
for a snack and it's the first time we've seen each other for little while,
I make sure I stay in the kitchen ready to listen and be available at that
moment. We talk in the car when I give him rides, but that may change now
that he has a driver's license. He likes to go grocery shopping with me, and
that is often when he chats me up about things that are happening in his
world and with friends.
We enjoy sharing music, sending each other links of funny on-line videos,
interesting news stories, or movie previews. I really appreciate these
little intimacies a lot and I don't feel we are growing apart. He is growing
up and independent and that is a good thing.
Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
open to him when he does share a space with me. If he comes into the kitchen
for a snack and it's the first time we've seen each other for little while,
I make sure I stay in the kitchen ready to listen and be available at that
moment. We talk in the car when I give him rides, but that may change now
that he has a driver's license. He likes to go grocery shopping with me, and
that is often when he chats me up about things that are happening in his
world and with friends.
We enjoy sharing music, sending each other links of funny on-line videos,
interesting news stories, or movie previews. I really appreciate these
little intimacies a lot and I don't feel we are growing apart. He is growing
up and independent and that is a good thing.
Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I would add that you probably ought to concentrate on really cherishing
and enjoying and appreciating it when he does choose to spend time with you.
You sort of skimmed over the girlfriend thing - as if him spending time
with her automatically excludes you. Do you spend time with them both, ever?
I take Rosie and her boyfriend out to eat, sometimes. I buy. And I
invite them to go with me to some fun places, once in a while. And
sometimes they call me and ask me if I want to go with them somewhere,
too. I don't always say yes - because I don't want to wear out my
welcome. And I don't get grumpy when I'm not invited, but focus on how
cool it is that I AM sometimes invited.
You have little kids, too, so as much as you might enjoy him being home,
he might not be feeling like that is special time with you.
Mostly, I want to say to enjoy the bits of time you get. Don't expect
long stretches of time - just appreciate and enjoy the moments.
-pam
and enjoying and appreciating it when he does choose to spend time with you.
You sort of skimmed over the girlfriend thing - as if him spending time
with her automatically excludes you. Do you spend time with them both, ever?
I take Rosie and her boyfriend out to eat, sometimes. I buy. And I
invite them to go with me to some fun places, once in a while. And
sometimes they call me and ask me if I want to go with them somewhere,
too. I don't always say yes - because I don't want to wear out my
welcome. And I don't get grumpy when I'm not invited, but focus on how
cool it is that I AM sometimes invited.
You have little kids, too, so as much as you might enjoy him being home,
he might not be feeling like that is special time with you.
Mostly, I want to say to enjoy the bits of time you get. Don't expect
long stretches of time - just appreciate and enjoy the moments.
-pam
On 2/8/2010 10:58 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> If you want to spend time with a teen, find something really
> interesting to do, rather than just asking him to stay home with you.
> Marty and I went to look at ghost towns for a few days once. Holly
> and I are going to Colorado for five days at the end of the month.
>
>
misskatenwa
> I have a wonderful 16 and a 1/2 year old. He is a very polite young man and we have a great relationship. Here is my dilemma.How did those of you with great relationship with your adult children handle this time of your child's life?
>My 3 hs kids are 14,16,18... which has been a trip, when I was having them, the thought of the eventual three teens in the house didn't occur to me... and it's been mostly delightful.
We've been in a bit of a holding pattern on many levels. And we've been maoning over this and that, I've been the worst. I've found (again) that often I set the tone for the household.
So recently, I've made decisions and have started the actions to move and change things, better for the whole household. And we all feel so much better as noted by the lack of moaning & complaining.
My three are homebodies, which is so different from how my dH and I were as teens, it's been strange. He & I talk about how different our parenting is from our parents and how different our kids are as people than how we were as teens. Believe me, it's a good thing! And I am oh so VERY grateful.
Anyway, we five have our own stuff to attend to and we fb. If your child is over 13, I highly suggest fb. It's great fun and helps to keep me up with everything going on with them without being in their face about anything.
I make sure that we have time in the car to discuss, catch up, whatever, whenever we're attending some event in town. The upside of living out from where things happen is the opportunity of time in the car to talk about stuff - and it doesn't seem like I'm being nosey, just good conversation while we're going somewhere.