Re: [AlwaysLearning]OT pronouncing forei gn names, Welsh anyone?
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/05 11:03:40 PM, nancy-owens@... writes:
-=-
just pronounce it in English, and let the kid know it's pronounced a bit
diffently in different accents.
It happens a lot in New Mexico that there's a name (first name, surname,
placename) that's pronounced a little differently if you're speaking Spanish.
English speakers pronounce French names one way in English and one way in
French.
Those are pretty Aelwyn/ Aylwyn/ Eylwyn and the same name elements were in
English names 800, 1000 years ago. Still, in Elsie, Alfred, Albert, which
used to be written with an æ (combined letter like an a and e stuck together
and written all in one motion, when done by hand, and called "ash"/æsc). My
SCA name is Ælflæd (Elf-led) but those vowels would be pronounced a little
differently in whatever dialect the speaker was speaking.
A friend's name is French, "Helene," with an accent on the middle syllable,
and it can't really be pronounced in running English text very well. Sounds
like "ehLYNN" but the "n" is pronounced differently from English and it's kind
of a tongue-stopper, and awkward. So she's gone by "Helena" most of her
life.
My neice's name is Eugenia--not in English, but in Spanish, so kind of
"youHAINeeya" sort of, and she's called Gina. Less convenient for her than if
they had called her "Gina," but her dad's name is Eugenio. He goes by Gene too,
except to elderly relatives.
I was interviewed for a BBC article on unpronounceable names a little while
back. I'm a'gin 'em, and the guy found an article I'd written for SCA
purposes and called me. It's a short interview. The way he wrote out my
different pronunciations of "Sandra" aren't the way I would've transcribed them, but
maybe they'll work for Brits. And I said "the northeastern U.S.," not New
York--he extrapolated that one.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4180664.stm
For those who'd rather read it here (sorry for long, long post)
How are you spelling that?
In death, as in life, when people spoke about Robert Moog, his name sounded
like the noise a cow makes.
For a man who did so much to broaden the range of sounds available to the
human ear - from prog rock to electronica - it might have been something of an
irony that people couldn't get his name right.
For Moog should not have rhymed with "fugue". It's pronounced "Mogue".
Moog was once asked by an interviewer for the definitive word on his name. He
was quite clear: "It rhymes with vogue. That is the usual German
pronunciation. My father's grandfather came from Marburg, Germany. I like the way that
pronunciation sounds better than the way the cow's 'moo-g' sounds."
Moog was not alone in having a name people couldn't pronounce properly.
People called Håkon, Jiye, Michi, Elissa, Asa, Nara and Laszlo have each written on
the web about going through life with people not knowing how to say their
names. Some have resorted to publishing MP3 files of the correct pronunciation.
First-hand experience
Psychologist Dr Mallory Wober (pronounced "woe-ber") has been studying
people's names for nearly 40 years, fascinated among other things by how Zipf's law
on the "principle of least effort" results in names being abbreviated.
But he knows from first hand experience what's it's like for people
constantly to mis-pronounce his name.
The way I react to how people say my name on the whole it depends what I
want from them
"My surname is terrible," he says. "It results in all sorts of creative
interpretations, though it is not all bad - if for instance junk mail comes with my
name spelt wrongly, I feel absolute licence to throw it away.
"But the way I react to how people say my name on the whole it depends what I
want from them, or from the relationship. If I need some help in a shop, and
someone mispronounces my name, then I am probably going to put up with it
since I need him to spend some time to talk to me.
"It's never happened, and as I'm 69 it's a distant chance, but if an
attractive young woman insisted on mispronouncing my name, I might well end up finding
it charming."
But, he added, if someone rang him and used the correct pronunciation, then
automatically he would know where he stood with the other person and that it
was likely to be a conversation worth having.
Fluency
Sandra Dodd from Albuquerque, New Mexico, calls herself "Sanndra"; people
from New York call her "Sarndra", people from Texas call her "Sa-endra". To some
of her friends, however, she is Ælflæd (pronounced "Elf-led").
Dodd is a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism, whose members take
part in medieval and Renaissance role-play. This means taking on medieval
names - another name she considered was "Wulfrun".
Having an unusual name in this context is obviously not a problem for her.
"Anyone who is fluent in Middle English knows how to pronounce it," she says.
The names of some of her fellow members have actually gone beyond role-play,
she says. Some have decided they actually prefer their medieval name in real
life - one member, previously known as Robert, changed his name to Cathyn, a
name which dates from the 1200s.
Dr Wober has done much research into the assumptions people make based solely
on names - eg Antoinette is attractive and flighty, Susan is solid and
trustworthy.
Perhaps this is why persistent mis-pronunciation can be so frustrating to
people who suffer from it, as it could imply a different set of assumptions.
Even the tendency Dr Wober has noted for people to gravitate towards
single-syllable - and thus straightforward - names does not always avoid
misunderstanding though.
Film-maker Tom Tanner - a man blessed with a simple, easily pronounceable
name - proudly recalls the occasion he answered his phone to a person wanting to
speak to "Town Planner".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-
> There are a few others I also *think* I might like, but I can't give a babyEven if you can pronounce it, others need to be able to do so. You could
> a name I can't pronounce.
> -=-
just pronounce it in English, and let the kid know it's pronounced a bit
diffently in different accents.
It happens a lot in New Mexico that there's a name (first name, surname,
placename) that's pronounced a little differently if you're speaking Spanish.
English speakers pronounce French names one way in English and one way in
French.
Those are pretty Aelwyn/ Aylwyn/ Eylwyn and the same name elements were in
English names 800, 1000 years ago. Still, in Elsie, Alfred, Albert, which
used to be written with an æ (combined letter like an a and e stuck together
and written all in one motion, when done by hand, and called "ash"/æsc). My
SCA name is Ælflæd (Elf-led) but those vowels would be pronounced a little
differently in whatever dialect the speaker was speaking.
A friend's name is French, "Helene," with an accent on the middle syllable,
and it can't really be pronounced in running English text very well. Sounds
like "ehLYNN" but the "n" is pronounced differently from English and it's kind
of a tongue-stopper, and awkward. So she's gone by "Helena" most of her
life.
My neice's name is Eugenia--not in English, but in Spanish, so kind of
"youHAINeeya" sort of, and she's called Gina. Less convenient for her than if
they had called her "Gina," but her dad's name is Eugenio. He goes by Gene too,
except to elderly relatives.
I was interviewed for a BBC article on unpronounceable names a little while
back. I'm a'gin 'em, and the guy found an article I'd written for SCA
purposes and called me. It's a short interview. The way he wrote out my
different pronunciations of "Sandra" aren't the way I would've transcribed them, but
maybe they'll work for Brits. And I said "the northeastern U.S.," not New
York--he extrapolated that one.
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4180664.stm
For those who'd rather read it here (sorry for long, long post)
How are you spelling that?
In death, as in life, when people spoke about Robert Moog, his name sounded
like the noise a cow makes.
For a man who did so much to broaden the range of sounds available to the
human ear - from prog rock to electronica - it might have been something of an
irony that people couldn't get his name right.
For Moog should not have rhymed with "fugue". It's pronounced "Mogue".
Moog was once asked by an interviewer for the definitive word on his name. He
was quite clear: "It rhymes with vogue. That is the usual German
pronunciation. My father's grandfather came from Marburg, Germany. I like the way that
pronunciation sounds better than the way the cow's 'moo-g' sounds."
Moog was not alone in having a name people couldn't pronounce properly.
People called Håkon, Jiye, Michi, Elissa, Asa, Nara and Laszlo have each written on
the web about going through life with people not knowing how to say their
names. Some have resorted to publishing MP3 files of the correct pronunciation.
First-hand experience
Psychologist Dr Mallory Wober (pronounced "woe-ber") has been studying
people's names for nearly 40 years, fascinated among other things by how Zipf's law
on the "principle of least effort" results in names being abbreviated.
But he knows from first hand experience what's it's like for people
constantly to mis-pronounce his name.
The way I react to how people say my name on the whole it depends what I
want from them
"My surname is terrible," he says. "It results in all sorts of creative
interpretations, though it is not all bad - if for instance junk mail comes with my
name spelt wrongly, I feel absolute licence to throw it away.
"But the way I react to how people say my name on the whole it depends what I
want from them, or from the relationship. If I need some help in a shop, and
someone mispronounces my name, then I am probably going to put up with it
since I need him to spend some time to talk to me.
"It's never happened, and as I'm 69 it's a distant chance, but if an
attractive young woman insisted on mispronouncing my name, I might well end up finding
it charming."
But, he added, if someone rang him and used the correct pronunciation, then
automatically he would know where he stood with the other person and that it
was likely to be a conversation worth having.
Fluency
Sandra Dodd from Albuquerque, New Mexico, calls herself "Sanndra"; people
from New York call her "Sarndra", people from Texas call her "Sa-endra". To some
of her friends, however, she is Ælflæd (pronounced "Elf-led").
Dodd is a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism, whose members take
part in medieval and Renaissance role-play. This means taking on medieval
names - another name she considered was "Wulfrun".
Having an unusual name in this context is obviously not a problem for her.
"Anyone who is fluent in Middle English knows how to pronounce it," she says.
The names of some of her fellow members have actually gone beyond role-play,
she says. Some have decided they actually prefer their medieval name in real
life - one member, previously known as Robert, changed his name to Cathyn, a
name which dates from the 1200s.
Dr Wober has done much research into the assumptions people make based solely
on names - eg Antoinette is attractive and flighty, Susan is solid and
trustworthy.
Perhaps this is why persistent mis-pronunciation can be so frustrating to
people who suffer from it, as it could imply a different set of assumptions.
Even the tendency Dr Wober has noted for people to gravitate towards
single-syllable - and thus straightforward - names does not always avoid
misunderstanding though.
Film-maker Tom Tanner - a man blessed with a simple, easily pronounceable
name - proudly recalls the occasion he answered his phone to a person wanting to
speak to "Town Planner".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NANCY OWENS
I shouldn't have said I *can't*. <g> I come from a long line of unpronounceable names. My Mom's family is mostly Swedish, Dad's family hails from England and Belgium. My maiden name is Edds not like *Ed's* but more like *Eadz* as in eat. The Edds line splits off from the Cazier's *Cashier* and the Soetaert's *Zo-dart*. Some of my family has actually changed to Eads as a spelling. My Mom's Mom is Illdean. I-La-dean. Moly's full name is Moly-Elspeth Jaine Owens. I think its funny when I see in Baby name books that Elspeth is a Scottish name and maybe it is, but it's an old Swedish name too.(or at least it is in my Swedish family <bg>) I've got a couple great, great something or others with that name. Lots of people call her Moly-Elisabeth. And when people see how we spell her name they sometimes ask 'Is that Molly as in Molly or something else?' (I was flower bulb shopping and saw some tulips called Moly's, and I was pregnant and emotional, and they were pretty, and...)
~Nancy
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 11/23/05 11:03:40 PM, nancy-owens@... writes:
-=-
just pronounce it in English, and let the kid know it's pronounced a bit
diffently in different accents.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~Nancy
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 11/23/05 11:03:40 PM, nancy-owens@... writes:
-=-
> There are a few others I also *think* I might like, but I can't give a babyEven if you can pronounce it, others need to be able to do so. You could
> a name I can't pronounce.
> -=-
just pronounce it in English, and let the kid know it's pronounced a bit
diffently in different accents.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
On Nov 24, 2005, at 4:42 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
German-born parents, so Americans would pronounce it like with a long A
sound, closer to the German "Eva," and not with a long E. In class,
however, the teacher pronounced it "ah-vah," as it would be if spelled
that way in German.
I don't remember how that was resolved, if the teacher pronounced it
incorrectly for German, or if Ava changed the spelling while in class
<g>
Nancy
> A friend's name is French, "Helene," with an accent on the middleA girl in my high school German class was named "Ava" by her
> syllable,
> and it can't really be pronounced in running English text very well.
> Sounds
> like "ehLYNN" but the "n" is pronounced differently from English and
> it's kind
> of a tongue-stopper, and awkward. So she's gone by "Helena" most of
> her
> life.
German-born parents, so Americans would pronounce it like with a long A
sound, closer to the German "Eva," and not with a long E. In class,
however, the teacher pronounced it "ah-vah," as it would be if spelled
that way in German.
I don't remember how that was resolved, if the teacher pronounced it
incorrectly for German, or if Ava changed the spelling while in class
<g>
Nancy
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/24/05 9:44:40 AM, nancy-owens@... writes:
back, and that was before there were different Scandinavian languages too--just
all Norse.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-I think its funny when I see in Baby name books that Elspeth is aThere's that whole Danelaw situation in the northern U.K. a thousand years
> Scottish name and maybe it is, but it's an old Swedish name too.(or at least it is
> in my Swedish family <bg>) -=-
>
back, and that was before there were different Scandinavian languages too--just
all Norse.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
Moog was once asked by an interviewer for the definitive word on his name. He
was quite clear: "It rhymes with vogue. That is the usual German
pronunciation. My father's grandfather came from Marburg, Germany. I like the
way that pronunciation sounds better than the way the cow's 'moo-g' sounds."
-=-=-=-=-
I would have guessed Mogue. I'm still floored when people pronounce Cameron "camRON"---I thought that a pretty easy one! <G>
When I read Kelli & Tim Traaseth's name for the first time, I heard "TRAHset" (German pronunciation) in my head, but every one was saying TRAYseth, so I did too. Kelli never corrected me! So I figured that was right. Low and behold....<g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Moog was once asked by an interviewer for the definitive word on his name. He
was quite clear: "It rhymes with vogue. That is the usual German
pronunciation. My father's grandfather came from Marburg, Germany. I like the
way that pronunciation sounds better than the way the cow's 'moo-g' sounds."
-=-=-=-=-
I would have guessed Mogue. I'm still floored when people pronounce Cameron "camRON"---I thought that a pretty easy one! <G>
When I read Kelli & Tim Traaseth's name for the first time, I heard "TRAHset" (German pronunciation) in my head, but every one was saying TRAYseth, so I did too. Kelli never corrected me! So I figured that was right. Low and behold....<g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]