judijeffliawyatt

I felt I needed to respond to this whole discussion and explain some
things. It has taken me all day to gather my thoughts together about
it since I was so upset about it all and feeling so condemned. I can
certainly understand some of the responses due to the harshness of my
husbands' question, but I need to explain. First, I would like to
thank Sandra for being more wholistic on your replies and not so
personal. I have been reading Sandra's and Ren's(and many others)
advice for 2-3 years now and have always admired and respected their
thoughts. These sites are the only things that get me through
sometimes, and so thankyou everybody out there for all your help! I
think it is one reason why this has been so painful for me to have
dealt with. We have just been "silent observers" for so long, and
for our first advance onto the site to have been like this has been
hurtful. Regarding the pets, the situation is this.... my daughter
loves reptiles and fish, and I also love critters, so we have
accumulated MANY turtles, lizards, frogs, mice, rats, toads, geckoes,
dragons, and she has numerous aquariums with crabs, saltwater fish
(which she has caught herself) etc. over this last year. We are very
active in her interest, fixing habitats for breeding, being active in
the local herpetological society, field trips, etc, etc. (And yes, we
also do many, many other activities with groups, friends, etc) With
so many reptiles, we also have to have crickets....1 thousand a week,
and of course, part of that is they get loose in the house, the cats
eat them and puke, and they chirp constantly(which I love!, but my dh
doesn't). I realize that she cannot possibly take care of all these
herself, and so I do a lot of the care. She is very good about
caring for many of these, but my husband gets frustrated with the
amount of time it takes, we always wonder how much responsability she
should have with them (isn't that a normal concern?) and my husband
does NOT like the crickets AT ALL crawling around the house at times
(which I think is a normal dislike for many people). OK, keep this
info. in mind while I explain the TV part. Until the last 2 + months,
the kids main TV was the Science channel, Animal Planet, Funniest
Videos, and of course we've had our share of the classic cartoons.
Oh, and we LOVE the Spirited Away movie! The programs didn't seem to
interfere with other things going on. We had dinners together,
(discussed over Sandra's thinking sticks), we do the family bed, and
would all cuddle up and read 1-2 hours before bedtime. Suddenly, our
dd has an interest in the newer cartoons like Invader Zim, The
adventures of Billy and Mandy, and Ed, Edd and Eddie. These are a
bit different than Mickey Mouse, with name calling, puking up on each
other, and just some stuff that I wasn't used to. I'm not saying
they are good or bad, just different and take adjusting to! Also,
they now want to watch them ALOT, and not come to dinner if they are
on, and we don't have time now for our bedtime reading. I know your
suggestions on working around them, and taping them, etc. are good
ones, but this is a big adjustment for my husband and myself.
Soooooo, my husband was at wits end when he posted that question, and
was frustrated with some of these things, and yes, it came out very
negative, and no, we would never have let an animal die for a
lesson. The letting go of control is a hard lesson for us to learn,
and we need the support of this group, and I don't want to feel like
we are these horrible, bad people if we would ever want to make
another post. We realize a lot of this is OUR problem, but please
don't tell me that we are the only ones making mistakes along this
huge adventure. Yes, we love our kids and worry about them probably
too much. While I'm at it, I would like some insight into something
else. My dd has also found that she likes scary movies. (Rated R
like ALiens, The Thing, and recently The Scream) She has always
loved scary things since a little girl, but I need some thoughts on
letting her watch "horror" movies at this age (10). I have never
been a horror film lover, so I don't know what they are all like, and
if they are OK. I have read to let the kids watch what they want,
and they will decide if it is something they like, or will ask to
turn it off or leave.
Anyways, thanks for listening. I'm sorry if we conjured up
thoughts in peoples' minds of a horrible family with poor, unloved
children.
Judi

Angela S.

If she just discovered theses shows, then they are new to her and the
newness will wear off after some marathon watching, I'll bet. And quicker
if you don't make a big deal out of it. Just keep life interesting and do
fun things and don't obsess about the amount she watches. It'll pass.

As to the pets, I guess I just wouldn't get anymore than I was willing to
take care of. We have a guinea pig, two cats, and two horses. The kids
help with all of them but they are not required to. I knew going into it
that the responsibility would fall on me, if the kids' interest didn't hold
and I had no problem with that. We got them to enrich our lives. At this
point, however, I am tapped for time/energy taking care of our pets and I
would not be willing to take on more responsibility for pets at this time.
My kids are 8 and 10. They are not asking for more at this time but if they
did, we would talk about the repercussions of having more pets then you have
time to care for and I am sure they would understand, even if they were
disappointed.

That said, your dh is part of your family, and although he shouldn't have
the only say, his opinion should be taken into consideration in the amount
of pets he has to live with. Is there some way you could store the crickets
in a garage or attic or some kind of sound proof box? We lived in our
basement for a year and had crickets that got in somehow and they drove me
nuts. They are so loud!

Angela
game-enthusiast@...

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<I felt I needed to respond to this whole discussion and explain some
things. It has taken me all day to gather my thoughts together about
it since I was so upset about it all and feeling so condemned. >>>>>>>

One of the great things about posting and then being challenged by the
responses, is that it often forces us to improve our writing online by being
more accurate and specific, and away from shorthand. That process in itself
can lead us to examine our underlying assumptions and reach greater clarity
in our thinking also - indeed that is its greatest value.

Just look at how much more information there is just about the pet situation
in this post compared to the original one. Suddenly we see the extensive
nature of the commitment, and get a much greater idea of the scale of your
dd's interest in animals and nature. We now start to understand also the
sense of loss that you may feeling with this move away by dd from a shared
interest to a more individual one. (There is a tv show on Disney about a
girl with similar naturalist interests, just btw, called "Naturally Sadie".)


I wonder if she is escaping into cartoons partly because she has
over-committed herself to her menagerie. This sense of the scale was fairly
important information. It might be time to start phasing back to a more
comfortably manageable number of critters.

The other important information was about the newness of the cartoon
watching, and how it is a change in her life, a development - one could say
an expansion of her interests. Starting to investigate ideas and information
that are maybe a little beyond the "parental comfort zone" could be seen as
a sign of increasing maturity and independence, rather than looking at the
content of the tv programs as an indication of childishness. Our self-talk
and the words we choose to describe our children matter. We can make the
choice to use a positive label, or a compassionate one, rather than the
criticizing or detrimental expression.

<<<<< this is a big adjustment for my husband and myself.
Soooooo, my husband was at wits end when he posted that question, and
was frustrated with some of these things, and yes, it came out very
negative,>>>>>

One thing that seems to come through clearly when people are posting are
negative feelings such as frustrations, and negative attitudes such as
critical judgments. Sometimes people who are writing are not even aware of
the extent that negative predictive thinking or unkind (or even harsh)
evaluations of their kids are permeating their thought processes.

By writing these events and problems down and then having some of the
apparent emotions and ideas behind them illuminated by the responders, we
have the opportunity to say to ourselves something like, "Wow, I didn't
realize how strongly this was affecting me...I didn't get how much my tone
is impinging on my kids...I didn't realize what assumptions I was still
holding on to...I didn't understand what the ramifications of this
action/attitude of mine could be...."

I find that the places where I am most defensive are those where I am most
in the wrong. The very sense of feeling attacked, and the desire to deny,
are the most useful clues for me that I should examine those actions or
attitudes. Of course remembering that in the heat of the moment is the
hardest part!

<<<<< but please don't tell me that we are the only ones making mistakes
along this huge adventure. >>>>>

No one is likely to say that. I have never heard anyone say anything like
that.

<<<<<<< I'm sorry if we conjured up
thoughts in peoples' minds of a horrible family with poor, unloved
children. >>>>>

Well I didn't get that picture, although I was a bit worried about your pets
for a minute. I also had visions of you releasing a domesticated animal into
the wild which is a bad idea from several pov's, which I now see would not
be an accurate picture at all. I hate crickets en masse too - utterly
illogical paranoia about them getting in my ears and eating my brain. I
thought they could come freeze dried for reptiles - at least they would then
be silent.

I am going to cross post something I wrote last week about tv content. For
all the folk who have read it already, please feel free to switch off now.

Quote begins:

<<<<It has been the most pronounced incidence of synchronicity that I have
yet noticed on the lists where there have been three mothers posting almost
the exact same sentiments on three Unschooling lists, specifically
expressing the same concerns about "limiting to appropriate content" with
children of varying ages, from 2 yo to 6 year olds, to a 10 yo, and a 14 yo.

This is not really the forum for a lengthy dissertation into the discourses
of television comedy, or a dissection of the semiotics of the sitcom as a
depiction of the American family - as entertaining as I would personally
find writing such an essay.

Nor is it necessarily as helpful to get into a lengthy "I don't like show
X"..."Oh I like show X a lot" debate - because tastes differ, definitions of
"vulgar" or funny differ, and it doesn't really get any further into the
principles behind the ideas of choice and learning.

There seem to be two issues in reference to the content of tv programs or
movies. The first is the idea that the content, while not necessarily
objectionable in itself, is too "mature" for the children - either too scary
or too sexually explicit seem to the main concerns.

In the first situation I have found, similarly to what others have reported,
that Jayn is very good at self-care if she starts to become scared of
images, sounds or characters' behavior. She also seems to have developed her
own specific coping mechanisms for exploring the scary stuff including fast
forwarding, going away for a minute, desensitizing herself with repeated
gradual exposures, and role-playing games. I too have learnt the kind of
music or images that disturb her, and will warn her if a program seems
likely to be scary.

In the case of sexually explicit - and people have different places where
they will become concerned - I have found, again similarly to what others
have reported, that Jayn has zero interest in the sexual or even mere
romantic antics of people on tv. She certainly is not seeking it out. If
something comes on in the course of changing channels or she walks into the
other room and something is on, she gets a kind of "that looks stupid"
expression and usually totally ignores it. At around 3, she used to enjoy
"Sex and the City" because she liked the pretty dresses and sparkles, and
would just go play with her dolls during any of the incomprehensible to her
sexual scenes. Now she just lumps adult themed shows of any kind (eg police
drama) together as "boring" or "stupid garbage" and asks for Disney channel.
It is only a matter of time before she starts expressing ideas and seeking
clarification (her version of asking questions) on the odd sexual scenes she
bumps into at times on tv.

*** I will add that I believe that she will start seeking out or being
attracted to programs with sexual content (of any kind) at the appropriate
developmental time when her inner questioning arrives at that place - or to
put it conversely, she won't be interested until and unless she is "ready"
to receive that kind of information, coupled with the additional guidance
that I will be able to give her about the level of reality that she is
seeing. I try to see every new program as an opportunity for more
communication between us.

The second issue of concern has to do with the "family values" and behavior
and relationships of characters in the shows. I have to agree that both the
characters and the situations in teen sitcoms and movies often depict values
that are in conflict with the ideas of Unschooling, including lousy
parenting, adults as adversarial and dumb simultaneously, and sibling
conflict portrayed as normal and acceptable.

However whether these values are going to be genuinely internalized and
adopted by our children is another question. I personally doubt it, despite
the experimental forays into these less than charming behaviors our kids
sometimes engage in. I am seeing it for the first time - Jayn has started
calling me "stupid head" at odd times - from "Lilo and Stitch" (movie). I
have Trust that it will get old soon. I also endorse the idea of talking
over in a genuine way specific behaviors or ideas, rather than making a
negative assessment of the show your kid loves. (I come and blurt the latter
onto the lists instead of onto Jayn). ;)

Aside from the fact that I doubt that any of us are remotely like any of
these detached, authoritarian or befuddled parents, the biggest, hugest,
most significant difference between our children and 100percent of the kids
portrayed on any of these shows is: they are all in mandatory school.

These TV children's primary bonding relationships are shown as being with
their friends and age peers, and with few exceptions, the majority of their
time is spent in the school hallways, on school related projects, including
some really contrived nonsense, and conversing with each other about school
stuff or school people. Additionally, with the one exception of Ren Stevens
who likes it and is a butt of humor for that reason, they seem consider
school a necessary evil.

I believe that these shows portray a heightened and exaggerated depiction of
what we Unschoolers would consider some of the very real negatives of school
as they apply to family life - the appropriation of almost all time with the
concomitant disintegration of close family relationships, the culture of
peer approval and cliques and personality labeling ("jocks", "geeks",
"popular girls", etc), the separation and fostering of distrust and
disconnection between parents and children, the adult (parent or teacher) as
both incomprehensible and a killjoy even while they are "humorously"
infantile (esp. males), children as directly powerless in the face of school
or parental rules so resorting to underhand strategies (hi jinks ensue!
:P~~).

The entertainment value of these shows to schooled children, who undoubtedly
recognize themselves to a much greater degree, is likely partly in that very
separation from the parents. The tv kids usually spend almost no time in
class of any kind - more wishful thinking for the schooled kids. It is
possible that these tv kids have more personal power and autonomy than the
real children - they certainly will do more outlandish stuff. The didactic
"mother knows best in the end" message of most of these shows, is a small
price to pay (I mean for the schooled child viewers) for getting to watch
people make really dumb choices (dumber than they might make irl) and follow
through the absurd results. I notice that "grounding" is the universal
punishment, applied even after the "lesson" has been learned.

I suspect that most of our children have much less identification with the
characters. Maybe they watch this stuff with the same sense of disbelieving
astonishment that some of us apply to Jerry Springer, or with the same
curiosity as pausing to view a car wreck or collapsed building. It is the
very "otherness" of these families that makes them interesting.

I asked Jayn what she likes about "That's So Raven", her current favorite. I
discovered that her attraction to the show comes from her enjoyment of
Raven's dress up as odd characters antics, and also she likes Raven's
regular clothing which is heavy on the sparkle, feathers and embroidery. We
record the programs, and sometimes if one of the other characters is the
featured story that day, she will ask me to skip over those scenes that do
not include Raven herself. In other words the actual narrative or internal
"logic" is irrelevant to Jayn's enjoyment.

In the past Jayn has included shows that I don't like (for values) in her
viewing schedule. Her interest has waned, not because I made any attempt to
limit, but because she received all she needed and her interests matured. We
had lots of conversations about specific moments that I disapproved of,
along the lines of other choices the characters could have made in those
moments.

Unlike schooled kids, our children have the opportunity to continue to have
authentic relationships with us. We can continue to be the first and primary
values influence in their lives, as well as their strongest safety net,
regardless of what tv shows they like. I hope that it is our huge presence
in their lives, and willingness to really listen without a hidden agenda,
that will ultimately mitigate any of the experimental "bad" behavior that
they may try on. >>>>

Robyn L. Coburn



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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/6/05 2:36:31 AM, jkeller5@... writes:


> The letting go of control is a hard lesson for us to learn,
> and we need the support of this group, and I don't want to feel like
> we are these horrible, bad people if we would ever want to make
> another post.  We realize a lot of this is OUR problem, but please
> don't tell me that we are the only ones making mistakes along this
> huge adventure. 
>

Nobody's being personal. ANYone who posted something about a kid being
stubborn would be jumped on for it. It's the IDEA of condemning a child with
such a negative label that is the issue, not individual people.

-=- I'm sorry if we conjured up thoughts in peoples' minds of a horrible
family with poor, unloved
children.                   -=-

Well...
There are hundreds of thousands of words to choose from, and "die" and
"stubborn" were chosen.

The love or lack of love in that post was what people responded to.

Too many pets is too many pets. Fish and reptiles die. Don't get more
since it's causing stress. Tell her when she's grown and has her own place she
can go wild with the number of animals she keeps, but right now you don't have
the space and patience and these should live their lives out (or find better
homes for some of them) without being replaced or added to.

Instead of bringing the crickets out to the animals, if you really have that
many crickets, can they be in a cage big enough for you to put lizards in to
eat and then pull the lizards out? Can you put the crickets into the
lizards' tanks inside a rolled up paper (like a paper towel) that will open once you
set it down?

Sandra

Sandra


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Julie W

judijeffliawyatt wrote:

>We realize a lot of this is OUR problem, but please
>don't tell me that we are the only ones making mistakes along this
>huge adventure.
>
I've been awol so I missed the whole beginning stuff with this, but I
promise you, I make mistakes daily. DS (13) told me yesterday I had
really been a bitch lately. Which is saying alot, since I can be the
bitchQueen anyway. Having to work on some addittude adjustment, maybe a
nice Resling will help....
Love Invader Zim, we Tivo it so dh can watch it with us.

--


Julie W (The Zaftig Goddess)
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Zaftig-Goddess_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm
<%3Fhttp://stores.ebay.com/The-Zaftig-Goddess_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm%3F>
Live and Learn
http://www.geocities.com/live-and-learn.geo/
The Homeschool Zone
http://www.freewebs.com/thehomeschoolzone/index.htm

*"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one
half so bad as a lot of ignorance."*

* *



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Julie W

judijeffliawyatt wrote:

I forgot to mention that the crickets in the house (and the noise and
the inability to find/stop that noise) would drive me to make very loud
and unreasonable statements, lots of salty language and ultimately madness.

--

Julie W (The Zaftig Goddess)
http://stores.ebay.com/The-Zaftig-Goddess_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm
<%3Fhttp://stores.ebay.com/The-Zaftig-Goddess_W0QQsspagenameZMEQ3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm%3F>

**

* *



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Barbara Mullins

Hello - I was wondering if you have ever seen the show on Animal
Planet called Animal Planet's Cops? My 7yo is currently interested
in it but I wanted to point out that an adult should be near when
watching because occasionally there is something horendous that
happens. Anyhow, they do a really GREAT job of explaining that
sometimes well meaning people who start out with just a few pets but
add more get to a point that they are overwhelmed and need help. So
perhaps that is what has happened in your family that the adding of
pets at first had the best intentions but as time with by it just
got out of hand. You could help explain this and perhaps you could
work on a solution together, perhaps adopt a few out to other homes?
About CN I think that if it is newly found then perhaps they are
enjoying it and learning from it and I would suggest giving it more
time. But perhaps if they are watching a lot of reruns of shows they
have already seen then mabye they don't feel like they have anything
else better to do that is currently available. So perhaps you could
make other things to do more apparent? Or perhaps they have a cold
coming on and just need to rest (my son does this occasionally, is
usually glued to the TV for a day or 2 and I will wonder what is up
and then he will get a fever or vomit or sore throat for a day or so
and then descides to get on about doing other things.) That's all I
can think of for now. Definately keep talking with your kids and
keep trying to understand them and you will work this out - HTH -
Barbara

Barbara Mullins

--- In [email protected], "Barbara Mullins"
<mozafamily@y...> wrote:
> Hello - I was wondering if you have ever seen the show on Animal
> Planet called Animal Planet's Cops? My 7yo is currently interested
> in it but I wanted to point out that an adult should be near when
> watching because occasionally there is something horendous that
> happens. Anyhow, they do a really GREAT job of explaining that
> sometimes well meaning people who start out with just a few pets
but
> add more get to a point that they are overwhelmed and need help.
So
> perhaps that is what has happened in your family that the adding
of
> pets at first had the best intentions but as time with by it just
> got out of hand. You could help explain this and perhaps you could
> work on a solution together, perhaps adopt a few out to other
homes?
> About CN I think that if it is newly found then perhaps they
are
> enjoying it and learning from it and I would suggest giving it
more
> time. But perhaps if they are watching a lot of reruns of shows
they
> have already seen then mabye they don't feel like they have
anything
> else better to do that is currently available. So perhaps you
could
> make other things to do more apparent? Or perhaps they have a cold
> coming on and just need to rest (my son does this occasionally, is
> usually glued to the TV for a day or 2 and I will wonder what is
up
> and then he will get a fever or vomit or sore throat for a day or
so
> and then descides to get on about doing other things.) That's all
I
> can think of for now. Definately keep talking with your kids and
> keep trying to understand them and you will work this out - HTH -
> Barbara

I also forgot to mention if they want to see a scary movie/
horror or whatever then I would let them but definately go with them
and if they get scared and want to leave or turn it off then let
them. Read reviews of the shows with them before you go (or rent
them), just because they're gross to you doesn't mean they might not
be a learning experinece. Or if you simply can't stand horror movies
perhaps your husband could step up on this one? My son watches Billy
& Mandy (YES - Grim!) and even though sometimes I think - Yuck! When
I talk to him about it he is getting something totally different
from the show than I am. When he first started watching the Eds I
wasn't sure about that one either but actually I've kindof got the
ideas behind that one now and am more cool with it, of course he's
tired of it now and rarely watches it. I'm probably a bigger fan of
Teen Titans & Puffy Ami-Yumi than my son is these days! I wanna be
Starfire for Halloween this year & perhaps my son will be Robin
again. Anyhow - my son is getting something from the shows, even if
I don't see it at first, and he's sorthing the information and
desciding wheter it is useful for him or not, he's not just blindly
absorbing the information he is thinking about it and when he's
tired of something I know I can trust him to change the channel,
turn it off, etc. But I do like to make sure that if there is other
stuff to do, like go for a walk with me, play a game, etc. that he
knows that is available also, but I'm not so hung up on it anymore
if he watches TV for a couple of hours, but actually now that he has
free access to TV (for about 2 years now) it seems like he watches
it a lot less, although it does get left on as background noise
quite a bit but I see myself and my husband do that as well.
Barbara

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Mullins <mozafamily@...>

I also forgot to mention if they want to see a scary movie/
horror or whatever then I would let them but definately go with them
and if they get scared and want to leave or turn it off then let
them. Read reviews of the shows with them before you go (or rent
them), just because they're gross to you doesn't mean they might not
be a learning experinece. Or if you simply can't stand horror movies
perhaps your husband could step up on this one?

-=-=-==-=-

We're at the end of this right now.

Last week, we went to see _The Brothers Grimm_. It was rated PG-13, I
think. Ben said that it had a warning---one he'd never seen before:
Parents should really consider taking children to this one. I don't
know where he saw that, but it hit him as odd.

Duncan understands movie/tv/game/ratings. He knows we don't forbid
anything, but some one rated them that way for a reason. Maybe not a
good reason! <g> But someone felt the need to rate it as such&such.

The movis is funny and clever and silly and...scary. Ben and I took
Duncan and a friend. About half-way through, Duncan grabs Ben's hand
and they scoot out quickly. Dunc was frightened. I didn't realize, as I
was sitting on the other side of Ben. They stayed out for 5-7 minutes
maybe and then came back in. They missed the almost-attack of the wolf
on the girl. Probably a good thing.

He was fine for the rest of the movie (in my lap <g>), but he's been
sleeping downstairs on the sofa since. Next week, Ben's out of town, so
I'm guessing I'll have bed company! <G>(But that would have happened
anyway!)

Now, he *knows* this is a movie. He *knows* it's fake, but it was still
frightening---just a little. He's seen plenty of "R" movies that were
much less damaging to him; now he wants to know why! <G>

It's not that he wishes he didn't go. He's glad he saw it, he says. But
he was very glad to be able to leave when he needed to---and Ben was
good to be willing to jump up at an interesting part.

I know so many parents who would have refused to leave and demand that
the child watch it because the child asked to come. And then make fun
of him for being scared. Duncan trusts us to help filter---OR help
avoid---situations that make him uncomfortable. We didn't realize that
his would frighten him---he seems so tough most of the time! <g> But
I'm glad he trusts us and felt OK asking for help when he was scared.!

~Kelly

nellebelle

And now we have lost Bob Denver too.

Mary Ellen

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