failure
Roberta Romero
After quickly learning how important words are to this group, I couldn't help but think of you all when I read this article. What do you think about it?
http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/content/news/NewsStory.asp?Brand=ESTOnline&Category=News&ItemId=IPED19+Jul+2005+09:29:27:297
Don't worry - you're not a failure
July 21, 2005 14:23
THERE'S good news today for anyone who's ever failed an exam at school - it's not that bad, just a "deferred success."
That's the view of a former Suffolk teacher who wants to ban the word fail from schools.
Liz Beattie, who has 37 years of teaching experience, said she believes children who are told they have failed can be crushed by the experience.
Now she's proposing that the word "fail" is replaced by the concept of "deferred success" in the educational vocabulary.
Her motion to the annual conference of the Professional Association of Teachers reads: "Conference believes it is time to delete the word 'fail' from the educational vocabulary to be replaced with the concept of deferred success."
Mrs Beattie, 68, will put the motion, which will be seconded by a colleague from Yorkshire, on July 28.
She said: "Failure is very hard to cope with. Eventually, if you experience enough of it, it stops you in your tracks.
"Education is too important for that - we need to keep people striving on. I've always thought that, educationally, it was a good thing to get rid of total pass or total fail.
"Learning should be life-long and it should be something that everybody knows they can do and knows they can have a bash at.
"We're not helping it. They are still talking pass and fail and it's a very depressing thing to deal with."
Mrs Beattie, who lives in Ipswich, continued: "I'd rather tell kids that they have done jolly well, they worked really well, they have achieved that and that's brilliant.
"You can then say tomorrow we should try that - rather than just saying you've failed.
"I think we all need to succeed at something. You need encouragement rather than being told you haven't done very well."
If the motion is passed at the conference, PAT's ruling council will decide how it should inform the association's policy, which currently states that "all individual achievement should be recognised."
Mrs Beattie, PAT Suffolk Federation Secretary and field officer, said she would not totally rule out ever using the word in education - but stressed encouragement was the key.
"I think it can stop children in their tracks," she added. "In a way we all deal with failure, but if it stops us trying something that is terrible.
"It's an attitude of mind. I would not say never tell them that they (pupils) haven't managed something but we've all got to strive. It's a case of getting the balance right.
"I would be surprised if we didn't get the motion through because I think there are enough teachers at all levels who know that, with little ones, you've got to get them motivated and with the older ones you've got to give them confidence going into exams.
"I feel very strongly about the idea. It's a thing that has always coloured the way I taught."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/content/news/NewsStory.asp?Brand=ESTOnline&Category=News&ItemId=IPED19+Jul+2005+09:29:27:297
Don't worry - you're not a failure
July 21, 2005 14:23
THERE'S good news today for anyone who's ever failed an exam at school - it's not that bad, just a "deferred success."
That's the view of a former Suffolk teacher who wants to ban the word fail from schools.
Liz Beattie, who has 37 years of teaching experience, said she believes children who are told they have failed can be crushed by the experience.
Now she's proposing that the word "fail" is replaced by the concept of "deferred success" in the educational vocabulary.
Her motion to the annual conference of the Professional Association of Teachers reads: "Conference believes it is time to delete the word 'fail' from the educational vocabulary to be replaced with the concept of deferred success."
Mrs Beattie, 68, will put the motion, which will be seconded by a colleague from Yorkshire, on July 28.
She said: "Failure is very hard to cope with. Eventually, if you experience enough of it, it stops you in your tracks.
"Education is too important for that - we need to keep people striving on. I've always thought that, educationally, it was a good thing to get rid of total pass or total fail.
"Learning should be life-long and it should be something that everybody knows they can do and knows they can have a bash at.
"We're not helping it. They are still talking pass and fail and it's a very depressing thing to deal with."
Mrs Beattie, who lives in Ipswich, continued: "I'd rather tell kids that they have done jolly well, they worked really well, they have achieved that and that's brilliant.
"You can then say tomorrow we should try that - rather than just saying you've failed.
"I think we all need to succeed at something. You need encouragement rather than being told you haven't done very well."
If the motion is passed at the conference, PAT's ruling council will decide how it should inform the association's policy, which currently states that "all individual achievement should be recognised."
Mrs Beattie, PAT Suffolk Federation Secretary and field officer, said she would not totally rule out ever using the word in education - but stressed encouragement was the key.
"I think it can stop children in their tracks," she added. "In a way we all deal with failure, but if it stops us trying something that is terrible.
"It's an attitude of mind. I would not say never tell them that they (pupils) haven't managed something but we've all got to strive. It's a case of getting the balance right.
"I would be surprised if we didn't get the motion through because I think there are enough teachers at all levels who know that, with little ones, you've got to get them motivated and with the older ones you've got to give them confidence going into exams.
"I feel very strongly about the idea. It's a thing that has always coloured the way I taught."
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jfetteroll
**Liz Beattie, who has 37 years of teaching experience, said she
believes children who are told they have failed can be crushed by
the experience.**
She's right. Except she hasn't gone far enough.
Schools are set up as assembly lines. Kids have to succeed at
one thing before they can move onto the next.
A teacher can allow a child to "defer success" on some things.
For instance, a child doesn't need to know how to write an "A" to
write a "B". But at some point the curriculum is based on
understanding what was explained before. *In school* a child
can't "defer success" in reading until they're 11. For one thing, a
school can't erase the child's understanding that they can't do
what (feels like) everyone else can. For another thing, the
curriculum requires that children be reading independly by 4th
grade. If they aren't, they need "special help" (e.g., help that's
reserved for the dumb kids.)
The system is set up to run on success and correcting failure.
That system can't be erased by replacing the word failure with
the phrase "defered success". That's double speak. The whole
system needs to be scrapped and replaced with unschooling :-)
Joyce
believes children who are told they have failed can be crushed by
the experience.**
She's right. Except she hasn't gone far enough.
Schools are set up as assembly lines. Kids have to succeed at
one thing before they can move onto the next.
A teacher can allow a child to "defer success" on some things.
For instance, a child doesn't need to know how to write an "A" to
write a "B". But at some point the curriculum is based on
understanding what was explained before. *In school* a child
can't "defer success" in reading until they're 11. For one thing, a
school can't erase the child's understanding that they can't do
what (feels like) everyone else can. For another thing, the
curriculum requires that children be reading independly by 4th
grade. If they aren't, they need "special help" (e.g., help that's
reserved for the dumb kids.)
The system is set up to run on success and correcting failure.
That system can't be erased by replacing the word failure with
the phrase "defered success". That's double speak. The whole
system needs to be scrapped and replaced with unschooling :-)
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/27/05 4:31:25 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
the reason behind many changes of "grading" and terminology in the schools.
Kids still know, though, when they're being compared and who's "winning" and who
has not won yet, isn't likely to win soon, hasn't ever won before, etc.
Kids aren't fooled by E instead of A and NI instead of D/F. Kids who were
retarded one year and "special" the next knew exactly what it meant, and so did
everyone else.
-=-That system can't be erased by replacing the word failure with
the phrase "defered success".-=-
At least, though, using that term could get the teachers feeling they might
want to help with that success, and it might (a little) help with compassion
and school reform.
When Holly wasn't reading yet we used to say "Holly's not reading yet,"
instead of "Holly can't read," (or "Holly is a non-reader" which is the way a
school might say it), and it quickly spread to other things like "Kirby doesn't
like green chile yet" and "Marty doesn't like to talk to strangers in public
yet." It's been helpful here to show a continuity and growth instead of to
define people as those who "don't read" or "don't like spinach." It shows
people as changing and growing, and so would "deferred sucess," only in a school
context with all its comparisons and time tables and bells and awards and
privileges and groupings, it's too little too small in too hopeless a tide.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **Liz Beattie, who has 37 years of teaching experience, said sheThat's been being said loudly by educators since at least the 60's. It's
> believes children who are told they have failed can be crushed by
> the experience.**
>
the reason behind many changes of "grading" and terminology in the schools.
Kids still know, though, when they're being compared and who's "winning" and who
has not won yet, isn't likely to win soon, hasn't ever won before, etc.
Kids aren't fooled by E instead of A and NI instead of D/F. Kids who were
retarded one year and "special" the next knew exactly what it meant, and so did
everyone else.
-=-That system can't be erased by replacing the word failure with
the phrase "defered success".-=-
At least, though, using that term could get the teachers feeling they might
want to help with that success, and it might (a little) help with compassion
and school reform.
When Holly wasn't reading yet we used to say "Holly's not reading yet,"
instead of "Holly can't read," (or "Holly is a non-reader" which is the way a
school might say it), and it quickly spread to other things like "Kirby doesn't
like green chile yet" and "Marty doesn't like to talk to strangers in public
yet." It's been helpful here to show a continuity and growth instead of to
define people as those who "don't read" or "don't like spinach." It shows
people as changing and growing, and so would "deferred sucess," only in a school
context with all its comparisons and time tables and bells and awards and
privileges and groupings, it's too little too small in too hopeless a tide.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Roberta Romero <lagobonita@...>
After quickly learning how important words are to this group, I
couldn't help
but think of you all when I read this article. What do you think about
it?
http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/content/news/NewsStory.asp?Brand=ESTOnline&Category=News&ItemId=IPED19+Jul+2005+09:29:27:297
-=-=-=-=-
Removing the word "failure" from the school vocabulary wouldn't change
the fact that the child hasn't lived up to the standard.
What used to be "the dumb group" or "the blue group" is now "special
ed"---does that change the meaning? Does that change how those kids
feel or are treated?
What used to be "wild and distracted" or "hyperactive" is now "ADD"
---how does that make the child feel? Better?
What used to be "difficult" or "strong-willed" is now "Oppositional
Defiant Disorder" or "ODD"---how THAT for an acronym??
When a child wasn't up to par with his classmates, he was considered
"slow"---does having "Learning Differences" make it all better? None of
us learn the *same*, but *HE* has "learning differences." They have
entire schools dedicated now to those with learning differences.
I think the idea of failing in schools is an absolute AWFUL one.
I'm glad no one told me how I'd failed when starting my garden. It's
taken years of trying and trying and having successes and failures to
figure out what works where or not at all. I could TELL that I'd failed
having a plant *here* instead of *there*. I fixed it---or got a
different plant. So when I gave up and chose another plant---that
wasn't a "deferred success"---that was failure and I knew it wasn't the
plant for me. Time to find a more compatible plant for the garden. I
guess I *could* have kept trying to make that plant "fit" in direct sun
by watering it more and standing over it with an umbrella: I chose to
toss it out and find a better plant! <bwg>
We have a billboard here in town with a photo of Edison and a
lightbulb---it says something like, "On the 1,000,000th try, success!"
But he assumed that he would succeed and that there would not be
failure, but deferred success. He wanted that light bulb to work!
*I* think it's sometimes better to fail and be done with it. Those
school kids will *still* have to achieve success in order to not fail.
I agree with Joyce: sounds like something Orwell could have written.
-=-=-=-=-=-
"Learning should be life-long and it should be something that everybody
knows
they can do and knows they can have a bash at.
"We're not helping it. They are still talking pass and fail and it's a
very
depressing thing to deal with."
Mrs Beattie, who lives in Ipswich, continued: "I'd rather tell kids
that they
have done jolly well, they worked really well, they have achieved that
and
that's brilliant."
-=-=-=-=-
I think she's right here. I think learning IS life-long. I think you
should tell kids that they've done jolly well. I think schools AREN'T
helping and that they ARE depressing! <g>
But in *real life* failure is a normal thing. It's like she's trying to
never have these kids think that failure is OK. It's just a step. A
learning-take.
Failure is not always such a bad thing---not in the real world. Just in
schools.
~Kelly
From: Roberta Romero <lagobonita@...>
After quickly learning how important words are to this group, I
couldn't help
but think of you all when I read this article. What do you think about
it?
http://www.eveningstar.co.uk/content/news/NewsStory.asp?Brand=ESTOnline&Category=News&ItemId=IPED19+Jul+2005+09:29:27:297
-=-=-=-=-
Removing the word "failure" from the school vocabulary wouldn't change
the fact that the child hasn't lived up to the standard.
What used to be "the dumb group" or "the blue group" is now "special
ed"---does that change the meaning? Does that change how those kids
feel or are treated?
What used to be "wild and distracted" or "hyperactive" is now "ADD"
---how does that make the child feel? Better?
What used to be "difficult" or "strong-willed" is now "Oppositional
Defiant Disorder" or "ODD"---how THAT for an acronym??
When a child wasn't up to par with his classmates, he was considered
"slow"---does having "Learning Differences" make it all better? None of
us learn the *same*, but *HE* has "learning differences." They have
entire schools dedicated now to those with learning differences.
I think the idea of failing in schools is an absolute AWFUL one.
I'm glad no one told me how I'd failed when starting my garden. It's
taken years of trying and trying and having successes and failures to
figure out what works where or not at all. I could TELL that I'd failed
having a plant *here* instead of *there*. I fixed it---or got a
different plant. So when I gave up and chose another plant---that
wasn't a "deferred success"---that was failure and I knew it wasn't the
plant for me. Time to find a more compatible plant for the garden. I
guess I *could* have kept trying to make that plant "fit" in direct sun
by watering it more and standing over it with an umbrella: I chose to
toss it out and find a better plant! <bwg>
We have a billboard here in town with a photo of Edison and a
lightbulb---it says something like, "On the 1,000,000th try, success!"
But he assumed that he would succeed and that there would not be
failure, but deferred success. He wanted that light bulb to work!
*I* think it's sometimes better to fail and be done with it. Those
school kids will *still* have to achieve success in order to not fail.
I agree with Joyce: sounds like something Orwell could have written.
-=-=-=-=-=-
"Learning should be life-long and it should be something that everybody
knows
they can do and knows they can have a bash at.
"We're not helping it. They are still talking pass and fail and it's a
very
depressing thing to deal with."
Mrs Beattie, who lives in Ipswich, continued: "I'd rather tell kids
that they
have done jolly well, they worked really well, they have achieved that
and
that's brilliant."
-=-=-=-=-
I think she's right here. I think learning IS life-long. I think you
should tell kids that they've done jolly well. I think schools AREN'T
helping and that they ARE depressing! <g>
But in *real life* failure is a normal thing. It's like she's trying to
never have these kids think that failure is OK. It's just a step. A
learning-take.
Failure is not always such a bad thing---not in the real world. Just in
schools.
~Kelly
Christy
Sandra, that was really helpful.
"show a continuity and growth instead of to
define people as those who "don't read" or "don't like spinach."
I have a high functioning autistic daughter. To change my perception, to
showing continuity and growth **really** helps. We are fairly new to
Unschooling.
Back to my learning corner.
Christy
"Never let schooling interfere with your education."
Mark Twain
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of SandraDodd@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: failure
In a message dated 7/27/05 4:31:25 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
the reason behind many changes of "grading" and terminology in the schools.
Kids still know, though, when they're being compared and who's "winning" and
who
has not won yet, isn't likely to win soon, hasn't ever won before, etc.
Kids aren't fooled by E instead of A and NI instead of D/F. Kids who were
retarded one year and "special" the next knew exactly what it meant, and so
did
everyone else.
-=-That system can't be erased by replacing the word failure with
the phrase "defered success".-=-
At least, though, using that term could get the teachers feeling they might
want to help with that success, and it might (a little) help with compassion
and school reform.
When Holly wasn't reading yet we used to say "Holly's not reading yet,"
instead of "Holly can't read," (or "Holly is a non-reader" which is the way
a
school might say it), and it quickly spread to other things like "Kirby
doesn't
like green chile yet" and "Marty doesn't like to talk to strangers in public
yet." It's been helpful here to show a continuity and growth instead of
to
define people as those who "don't read" or "don't like spinach." It
shows
people as changing and growing, and so would "deferred sucess," only in a
school
context with all its comparisons and time tables and bells and awards and
privileges and groupings, it's too little too small in too hopeless a tide.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SPONSORED LINKS
Unschooling
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Unschooling&w1=Unschooling&w2=Attachmen
t+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&s=104
&.sig=O82AQhD_DXKdsA55u0IORA>
Attachment
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Attachment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&
c=5&s=104&.sig=mWlG37faHBsTH26WLfJbUw> parenting
John
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=John+holt&w1=Unschooling&w2=Attachment+
parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&s=104&.
sig=aXLviSaeQBQ0Koa1fFBC0w> holt
Parenting
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Parenting+magazine&w1=Unschooling&w2=At
tachment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=
5&s=104&.sig=1vVhu6yG9zKP6tD21Ys9qw> magazine
Single
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Single+parenting&w1=Unschooling&w2=Atta
chment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&
s=104&.sig=86a8STGJlXAgNag9XEqGWA> parenting
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"show a continuity and growth instead of to
define people as those who "don't read" or "don't like spinach."
I have a high functioning autistic daughter. To change my perception, to
showing continuity and growth **really** helps. We are fairly new to
Unschooling.
Back to my learning corner.
Christy
"Never let schooling interfere with your education."
Mark Twain
_____
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of SandraDodd@...
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: failure
In a message dated 7/27/05 4:31:25 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
> **Liz Beattie, who has 37 years of teaching experience, said sheThat's been being said loudly by educators since at least the 60's. It's
> believes children who are told they have failed can be crushed by
> the experience.**
>
the reason behind many changes of "grading" and terminology in the schools.
Kids still know, though, when they're being compared and who's "winning" and
who
has not won yet, isn't likely to win soon, hasn't ever won before, etc.
Kids aren't fooled by E instead of A and NI instead of D/F. Kids who were
retarded one year and "special" the next knew exactly what it meant, and so
did
everyone else.
-=-That system can't be erased by replacing the word failure with
the phrase "defered success".-=-
At least, though, using that term could get the teachers feeling they might
want to help with that success, and it might (a little) help with compassion
and school reform.
When Holly wasn't reading yet we used to say "Holly's not reading yet,"
instead of "Holly can't read," (or "Holly is a non-reader" which is the way
a
school might say it), and it quickly spread to other things like "Kirby
doesn't
like green chile yet" and "Marty doesn't like to talk to strangers in public
yet." It's been helpful here to show a continuity and growth instead of
to
define people as those who "don't read" or "don't like spinach." It
shows
people as changing and growing, and so would "deferred sucess," only in a
school
context with all its comparisons and time tables and bells and awards and
privileges and groupings, it's too little too small in too hopeless a tide.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SPONSORED LINKS
Unschooling
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Unschooling&w1=Unschooling&w2=Attachmen
t+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&s=104
&.sig=O82AQhD_DXKdsA55u0IORA>
Attachment
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Attachment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&
c=5&s=104&.sig=mWlG37faHBsTH26WLfJbUw> parenting
John
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=John+holt&w1=Unschooling&w2=Attachment+
parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&s=104&.
sig=aXLviSaeQBQ0Koa1fFBC0w> holt
Parenting
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Parenting+magazine&w1=Unschooling&w2=At
tachment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=
5&s=104&.sig=1vVhu6yG9zKP6tD21Ys9qw> magazine
Single
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Single+parenting&w1=Unschooling&w2=Atta
chment+parenting&w3=John+holt&w4=Parenting+magazine&w5=Single+parenting&c=5&
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** So when I gave up and chose another plant---that
wasn't a "deferred success"**
Kelly, I would disagree. Maybe I've lived with California psychobabble
too long, and have been warped, though. <g>
I think replacing one dead plant with another one that can thrive in
that spot is "success" or in that new phrase "deferred success". My
definition of (abject) failure would be planting one plant, having it
die, and concluding "I can't grow anything here".
I've heard that your first homeschooling conference was a raging
success. But hypothetically, if the first one had been kind of a squib,
and then you had gone on to have bigger, fun-er conferences in future
years, that would be a fine example of "deferred success". I think I
just prefer to apply the word success or failure to the final state, not
the steps on the way.
I flunked my driving test the first time and passed it a day later. I
kind of wish that more classroom situation allowed multiple attempts at
tests. (Just because a student failed once, doesn't mean he has failed
for all time.)
Maybe it's helpful to consider phrases like "short-term failure" or
"temporary setback". I think institutional schooling implies to kids
that if they flunk one test about the Civil War they will be perpetually
stupid in that area and may never have the ability or opportunity to
learn about it.
My two cents,
Betsy
wasn't a "deferred success"**
Kelly, I would disagree. Maybe I've lived with California psychobabble
too long, and have been warped, though. <g>
I think replacing one dead plant with another one that can thrive in
that spot is "success" or in that new phrase "deferred success". My
definition of (abject) failure would be planting one plant, having it
die, and concluding "I can't grow anything here".
I've heard that your first homeschooling conference was a raging
success. But hypothetically, if the first one had been kind of a squib,
and then you had gone on to have bigger, fun-er conferences in future
years, that would be a fine example of "deferred success". I think I
just prefer to apply the word success or failure to the final state, not
the steps on the way.
I flunked my driving test the first time and passed it a day later. I
kind of wish that more classroom situation allowed multiple attempts at
tests. (Just because a student failed once, doesn't mean he has failed
for all time.)
Maybe it's helpful to consider phrases like "short-term failure" or
"temporary setback". I think institutional schooling implies to kids
that if they flunk one test about the Civil War they will be perpetually
stupid in that area and may never have the ability or opportunity to
learn about it.
My two cents,
Betsy
Kime
[Kime] Hi Sandra---and group:
I am sorry I don�t reply much on this loop---very busy with 7 children
and day to day living. Sandra I am writing you a bit out of desperation
again---but this time it is not with Mike----he is doing good for his
problems. Let me bore you with a run down of this year----so you could
understand this problem. In October Rio ( 3rd girl ---15) ended up in
Pediatric ICU for a week she had severe asthma----she was attending 2
courses at UNLV----because she wanted to---I thought it was too early
but you know how Steve can be----so I allowed she took English and
Biology. After the hospital I withdrew her from her classes because
there was no way for her to make up the work she missed 2 and half weeks
of college---and was to drugged up to even try to study on her own.
She went back in the spring only taking Biology in case something else
happened---which did ----she broke her right hand. But she finished and
passed Biology all on her own. I did go in an ask her if she prepared
for her test or anything---because this is what she chose to do. Mike (
the oldest) was discovered in December with a tumor in is sinuses.
He chose not to go to college the spring semester---he had terrible
headaches and the steroid they put him on cause problems with anger and
the ability for him to focus ---he noticed this with his chess game
sliding a bit. So he did nothing but take care of himself and deal with
this horrible disease----it is and allergic reaction to fungus---causing
a tumor in the sinus that moved both his nose and eye ---he became
slightly deformed as the tumor grew ---until they could get him into
surgery---had to have a 3 specialist there---two being neurologist and
one an ear nose throat surgeon----so it took 3 months to get this
surgery. No brain compromise which was good. But he still has drug
issues because this will be with him the rest of his life. We are
dealing with insurance issues because he turns 18 in one month and he
can�t be uninsured---his drugs run over a 100 a month with
insurance----minor problem for me now---just money. Kevin ( 2nd child
16) is doing good has a job---just as he wanted---likes working. But my
problem now is Caty (4th child 14) She wants to go to public school.
She is a level 8 gymnast---but was pulled out of gym in January because
of all the hospital and drug expenses for Mike and Rio----we couldn�t
afford it. She is angry with us---or upset. I don�t know if I am being
to harsh. But she now says she feels like we are locking her away from
friends and she has no social life anymore because we can�t afford to
send her to gym. So she wants to go to school and to make friends. Our
unschooling group does not have very many teens in it. We haven�t found
very many unschool teenagers here. The ones we know ---have to be part
of a class or structured event to attend. They are too busy to just
hang out and do what they want. Understand my older 3 think Caty is
just throwing a tantrum because she isn�t the center of daddy�s world
being the best gymnast. And to get dad�s attention she wants to go to
public school----she got dad�s attention---he wants her in all honors
classes. Sandra----I unschool---she is not unlearned---she is a bright
child ---but she is not Mike or Rio either---she doesn�t pick up
Discover magazine and discuss the string theory and waves vs. particles,
nor does she follow Rio and devour every book she can. She doesn�t even
do the math Rio and Mike will sit down and do just because they want to
know it. Caty can read----she is meddling through the Leminy Snicket
series. She is doing math right now because the older kids have taunted
her a bit. They are not pleased she wants to go to public school and
bring negative attention to us. They don�t think she will like it.
Kevin says that Caty thinks public school is going to be like �That�s so
Raven�. And they don�t want her going then dropping out in 4 wks. I
told her if she didn�t like it she could quit before her first grades
came out; but dad and the children said --- then don�t send her because
if she quits it will look bad for everyone in the family. We are a bit
public because of the politics I have been involved in. So I can
understand where the older 3 are coming from. Kevin also doesn�t study
or read like Mike and Rio; and Kevin says that Caty won�t like the
work----since she doesn�t like to do now---she isn�t going to like any
more from school. I have been making myself sick over this dilemma. I
don�t want her to go to school. But I wanted my children to be able to
choose a direction when they reach 14. That is why I supported Rio in
college----it wasn�t a heavy load and she did it on her own. I
supported Kevin when he wanted to wait to go to work----he had no
direction until then-----but he knew what he wanted---and he couldn�t
begin until he was 16. So that was his choice. So I feel like I am not
supporting Caty if I don�t let her go to school; and I supported all the
older 3 children�s decisions.
The sad part is I am being scrutinized by family and well meaning
friends. They think it is great Caty wants to go to school
---especially some of the family and they specifically don�t think she
will succeed because they think what I am doing is wrong. They say Caty
is too lazy----I argue she is not interested in Mike and Rio and there
are other things in life besides what is in books. They say that Caty
going to school will prove that my unschooling is not working----- I
don�t unschool to prepare my children for school ---I am trying to
prepare them for life. I am so stressed and the older children hear this
and it makes them angry. The older children don�t want Caty to be
allowed to go to school----they blame all the responses are negative and
are cause by Caty�s tantrum of wanting to go to school.
Ask me some questions for clarification---but I am sending to the entire
group ---in case anyone has tried this and has some insight. But I am
addressing you because you know me ---and watch our strange unschooling
practices and everything you suggested with Mike worked----go back to
what works.
Your advice always has ----
Steve doesn�t want her in school either but feels pushed and thus
insists if she goes he will decide what she can and cant� do---including
honors courses. If she is compelled to go to school then she should
study something. This is not a park day, and we will be watched. When
you open the doors people look in.
Thanks for your time and patience again.
Kime
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am sorry I don�t reply much on this loop---very busy with 7 children
and day to day living. Sandra I am writing you a bit out of desperation
again---but this time it is not with Mike----he is doing good for his
problems. Let me bore you with a run down of this year----so you could
understand this problem. In October Rio ( 3rd girl ---15) ended up in
Pediatric ICU for a week she had severe asthma----she was attending 2
courses at UNLV----because she wanted to---I thought it was too early
but you know how Steve can be----so I allowed she took English and
Biology. After the hospital I withdrew her from her classes because
there was no way for her to make up the work she missed 2 and half weeks
of college---and was to drugged up to even try to study on her own.
She went back in the spring only taking Biology in case something else
happened---which did ----she broke her right hand. But she finished and
passed Biology all on her own. I did go in an ask her if she prepared
for her test or anything---because this is what she chose to do. Mike (
the oldest) was discovered in December with a tumor in is sinuses.
He chose not to go to college the spring semester---he had terrible
headaches and the steroid they put him on cause problems with anger and
the ability for him to focus ---he noticed this with his chess game
sliding a bit. So he did nothing but take care of himself and deal with
this horrible disease----it is and allergic reaction to fungus---causing
a tumor in the sinus that moved both his nose and eye ---he became
slightly deformed as the tumor grew ---until they could get him into
surgery---had to have a 3 specialist there---two being neurologist and
one an ear nose throat surgeon----so it took 3 months to get this
surgery. No brain compromise which was good. But he still has drug
issues because this will be with him the rest of his life. We are
dealing with insurance issues because he turns 18 in one month and he
can�t be uninsured---his drugs run over a 100 a month with
insurance----minor problem for me now---just money. Kevin ( 2nd child
16) is doing good has a job---just as he wanted---likes working. But my
problem now is Caty (4th child 14) She wants to go to public school.
She is a level 8 gymnast---but was pulled out of gym in January because
of all the hospital and drug expenses for Mike and Rio----we couldn�t
afford it. She is angry with us---or upset. I don�t know if I am being
to harsh. But she now says she feels like we are locking her away from
friends and she has no social life anymore because we can�t afford to
send her to gym. So she wants to go to school and to make friends. Our
unschooling group does not have very many teens in it. We haven�t found
very many unschool teenagers here. The ones we know ---have to be part
of a class or structured event to attend. They are too busy to just
hang out and do what they want. Understand my older 3 think Caty is
just throwing a tantrum because she isn�t the center of daddy�s world
being the best gymnast. And to get dad�s attention she wants to go to
public school----she got dad�s attention---he wants her in all honors
classes. Sandra----I unschool---she is not unlearned---she is a bright
child ---but she is not Mike or Rio either---she doesn�t pick up
Discover magazine and discuss the string theory and waves vs. particles,
nor does she follow Rio and devour every book she can. She doesn�t even
do the math Rio and Mike will sit down and do just because they want to
know it. Caty can read----she is meddling through the Leminy Snicket
series. She is doing math right now because the older kids have taunted
her a bit. They are not pleased she wants to go to public school and
bring negative attention to us. They don�t think she will like it.
Kevin says that Caty thinks public school is going to be like �That�s so
Raven�. And they don�t want her going then dropping out in 4 wks. I
told her if she didn�t like it she could quit before her first grades
came out; but dad and the children said --- then don�t send her because
if she quits it will look bad for everyone in the family. We are a bit
public because of the politics I have been involved in. So I can
understand where the older 3 are coming from. Kevin also doesn�t study
or read like Mike and Rio; and Kevin says that Caty won�t like the
work----since she doesn�t like to do now---she isn�t going to like any
more from school. I have been making myself sick over this dilemma. I
don�t want her to go to school. But I wanted my children to be able to
choose a direction when they reach 14. That is why I supported Rio in
college----it wasn�t a heavy load and she did it on her own. I
supported Kevin when he wanted to wait to go to work----he had no
direction until then-----but he knew what he wanted---and he couldn�t
begin until he was 16. So that was his choice. So I feel like I am not
supporting Caty if I don�t let her go to school; and I supported all the
older 3 children�s decisions.
The sad part is I am being scrutinized by family and well meaning
friends. They think it is great Caty wants to go to school
---especially some of the family and they specifically don�t think she
will succeed because they think what I am doing is wrong. They say Caty
is too lazy----I argue she is not interested in Mike and Rio and there
are other things in life besides what is in books. They say that Caty
going to school will prove that my unschooling is not working----- I
don�t unschool to prepare my children for school ---I am trying to
prepare them for life. I am so stressed and the older children hear this
and it makes them angry. The older children don�t want Caty to be
allowed to go to school----they blame all the responses are negative and
are cause by Caty�s tantrum of wanting to go to school.
Ask me some questions for clarification---but I am sending to the entire
group ---in case anyone has tried this and has some insight. But I am
addressing you because you know me ---and watch our strange unschooling
practices and everything you suggested with Mike worked----go back to
what works.
Your advice always has ----
Steve doesn�t want her in school either but feels pushed and thus
insists if she goes he will decide what she can and cant� do---including
honors courses. If she is compelled to go to school then she should
study something. This is not a park day, and we will be watched. When
you open the doors people look in.
Thanks for your time and patience again.
Kime
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/31/05 3:41:58 PM, kskids7@... writes:
she didn't finish them would that look bad for everyone in the family?
Can you maybe ask for the gym to give her a scholarship or loan or something?
Can she work cleaning there or something?
Is there a high school/midschool with a gymnastics program?
-=- So I feel like I am not
supporting Caty if I don’t let her go to school; and I supported all the
older 3 children’s decisions.-=-
Maybe get everyone who has pro- and con- input to write it down, and make two
lists, adn then let Caty decide based in part on the concerns of relatives
and friends.
-=-especially some of the family and they specifically don’t think she
will succeed because they think what I am doing is wrong. They say Caty
is too lazy----I argue she is not interested in Mike and Rio and there
are other things in life besides what is in books.-=-
Sounds like she's getting plenty of negativity from being home. Maybe in
school she could find people who aren't comparing her to siblings.
-=- They say that Caty
going to school will prove that my unschooling is not working----- I
don’t unschool to prepare my children for school ---I am trying to
prepare them for life.-=-
Well...
School isn't life, but life does include schools of all kinds.
If she can't choose, she has no choice.
-=-This is not a park day, and we will be watched. When
you open the doors people look in. -=-
People watch at park days too.
Some people in/around school won't bother to care about her family. It's
work to really know a kid's background, and few at school will do any extra
work.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Kevin says that Caty thinks public school is going to be like “That’s soThat's pretty lame reasoning, isn't? If you bought her a dozen donuts and
> Raven”. And they don’t want her going then dropping out in 4 wks. I
> told her if she didn’t like it she could quit before her first grades
> came out; but dad and the children said --- then don’t send her because
> if she quits it will look bad for everyone in the family.
>
she didn't finish them would that look bad for everyone in the family?
Can you maybe ask for the gym to give her a scholarship or loan or something?
Can she work cleaning there or something?
Is there a high school/midschool with a gymnastics program?
-=- So I feel like I am not
supporting Caty if I don’t let her go to school; and I supported all the
older 3 children’s decisions.-=-
Maybe get everyone who has pro- and con- input to write it down, and make two
lists, adn then let Caty decide based in part on the concerns of relatives
and friends.
-=-especially some of the family and they specifically don’t think she
will succeed because they think what I am doing is wrong. They say Caty
is too lazy----I argue she is not interested in Mike and Rio and there
are other things in life besides what is in books.-=-
Sounds like she's getting plenty of negativity from being home. Maybe in
school she could find people who aren't comparing her to siblings.
-=- They say that Caty
going to school will prove that my unschooling is not working----- I
don’t unschool to prepare my children for school ---I am trying to
prepare them for life.-=-
Well...
School isn't life, but life does include schools of all kinds.
If she can't choose, she has no choice.
-=-This is not a park day, and we will be watched. When
you open the doors people look in. -=-
People watch at park days too.
Some people in/around school won't bother to care about her family. It's
work to really know a kid's background, and few at school will do any extra
work.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
arcarpenter2003
> In a message dated 7/31/05 3:41:58 PM, kskids7@e... writes:==
> -=- They say that CatyIf she does go, talk to her about what she wants out of it, and if she
> going to school will prove that my unschooling is not working----- I
> donât unschool to prepare my children for school ---I am trying to
> prepare them for life.-=-==
needs you to help her get ready -- skills, practice with writing,
math, talking about the rules, etc. Do it out of a desire to help her
succeed with what she's chosen, not so she'll make you look good.
If having to quit gymnastics was the trigger (and it sounds like it
was), find a way for her to return. Working. Bake sales. A paper
route. A loan for now. If gymnastics is her passion, and you
unschool -- well, you can put it together from there.
From your post, I don't know that school will make her happy -- it
just sounds like she's unhappy and she's trying one of the few options
she can think of in order to help herself be more happy. I know you
have a lot going on, but maybe you can find a mentor or someone that
can help her reach her goals without school.
She's at a tough age, she's being compared (at least in this post) to
her older siblings, and it sounds like nobody is happy with her. Her
actions suddenly reflect on the whole family, when all she's trying to
do is find some happiness for herself. She's being told she can't
even "try and see" this school option, when I'm guessing she's always
been able to try and see before.
It's not a fair situation. Maybe you should see if you can make it
more fair and can give her some more empathy and understanding -- at
least from you, if not from the rest of the family.
Peace,
Amy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/31/05 7:59:58 PM, arcarpenter@... writes:
to pay it off. You can't get her what she needs this year five years from
now any other way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> If having to quit gymnastics was the trigger (and it sounds like itThat's an idea. Borrow money. Get a charge card and figure out later how
> was), find a way for her to return. Working. Bake sales. A paper
> route. A loan for now. If gymnastics is her passion, and you
> unschool -- well, you can put it together from there.
>
to pay it off. You can't get her what she needs this year five years from
now any other way.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela S.
> If having to quit gymnastics was the trigger (and it sounds like itMaking people aware of your dreams allows them to help you if they choose
> was), find a way for her to return. Working. Bake sales. A paper
> route. A loan for now. If gymnastics is her passion, and you
> unschool -- well, you can put it together from there.
to. Addressing the owners of the gym and asking if there is any way you or
Caty could barter with them will help them to realize just how serious she
is about it. They can't help you if you don't make them aware of the
situation. I vote to try to find a way to get her back at the gym as often
as possible. Must be something you could try that you haven't thought of.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
Kime
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of SandraDodd@...
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 3:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: puplic school
In a message dated 7/31/05 3:41:58 PM, kskids7@... writes:
and
she didn't finish them would that look bad for everyone in the family?
[Kime] agree---I think the older children and I are feeling
betrayed----Caty has every right to try school and if she doesn�t like
it she should have the choice not continue----if she likes it then we
will all miss her. I guess we also fear she would like it too. If we
get slack that she couldn�t handle it we will just have to deal with it.
This is what Caty wishes for herself.
Can you maybe ask for the gym to give her a scholarship or loan or
something?
Can she work cleaning there or something?
Is there a high school/midschool with a gymnastics program?
[Kime] There is no gymnastics in public school it is all private---and
at her level it is too expensive to be funded. We looked into other
ways to keep her in----I even took on a job myself. The expenses kept
going up as she got better.
There are other sports she is willing to try now----she would like to go
into cheerleading and diving at the public school. She feels there she
has a chance to get as good as she can because it is free.
-=- So I feel like I am not
supporting Caty if I don�t let her go to school; and I supported all the
older 3 children�s decisions.-=-
Maybe get everyone who has pro- and con- input to write it down, and
make two
lists, adn then let Caty decide based in part on the concerns of
relatives
and friends.
[Kime] We did this----thanks----it ways more heavily because everyone
had a good argument---and different perspective.
I just decide Cat needed to decide for herself----the hard part was a
couple of parents would step in and tell me I am the mother----if I
don�t want her to go then I should put my foot down. My children have
no right to make decisions that I don�t like----this just doesn�t sit
right with me. I think they need to start controlling some of their
future and decisions now-----
I need to trust that Caty knows what is best for Caty. It�s just
hard----it was hard with Rio----but Rio did fine.
-=-especially some of the family and they specifically don�t think she
will succeed because they think what I am doing is wrong. They say Caty
is too lazy----I argue she is not interested in Mike and Rio and there
are other things in life besides what is in books.-=-
Sounds like she's getting plenty of negativity from being home. Maybe
in
school she could find people who aren't comparing her to siblings.
[Kime] Maybe---the negativity was only spawned from her wanting to go to
school----this wasn�t an issue before. She was looked at for her
accomplishments----now she is being compared because she is choosing a
new direction. And she is choosing a new direction because we can�t
afford the one she was in.
-=- They say that Caty
going to school will prove that my unschooling is not working----- I
don�t unschool to prepare my children for school ---I am trying to
prepare them for life.-=-
Well...
School isn't life, but life does include schools of all kinds.
If she can't choose, she has no choice.
[Kime] Agree----
-=-This is not a park day, and we will be watched. When
you open the doors people look in. -=-
People watch at park days too.
Some people in/around school won't bother to care about her family.
It's
work to really know a kid's background, and few at school will do any
extra
work.
[Kime] Yep-----thanks Sandra----we a going down to the school today to
let her speak with a counselor and the she can register.
[Kime]
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of SandraDodd@...
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 3:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: puplic school
In a message dated 7/31/05 3:41:58 PM, kskids7@... writes:
> Kevin says that Caty thinks public school is going to be like �That�sso
> Raven�. And they don�t want her going then dropping out in 4 wks. Ibecause
> told her if she didn�t like it she could quit before her first grades
> came out; but dad and the children said --- then don�t send her
> if she quits it will look bad for everyone in the family.That's pretty lame reasoning, isn't? If you bought her a dozen donuts
>
and
she didn't finish them would that look bad for everyone in the family?
[Kime] agree---I think the older children and I are feeling
betrayed----Caty has every right to try school and if she doesn�t like
it she should have the choice not continue----if she likes it then we
will all miss her. I guess we also fear she would like it too. If we
get slack that she couldn�t handle it we will just have to deal with it.
This is what Caty wishes for herself.
Can you maybe ask for the gym to give her a scholarship or loan or
something?
Can she work cleaning there or something?
Is there a high school/midschool with a gymnastics program?
[Kime] There is no gymnastics in public school it is all private---and
at her level it is too expensive to be funded. We looked into other
ways to keep her in----I even took on a job myself. The expenses kept
going up as she got better.
There are other sports she is willing to try now----she would like to go
into cheerleading and diving at the public school. She feels there she
has a chance to get as good as she can because it is free.
-=- So I feel like I am not
supporting Caty if I don�t let her go to school; and I supported all the
older 3 children�s decisions.-=-
Maybe get everyone who has pro- and con- input to write it down, and
make two
lists, adn then let Caty decide based in part on the concerns of
relatives
and friends.
[Kime] We did this----thanks----it ways more heavily because everyone
had a good argument---and different perspective.
I just decide Cat needed to decide for herself----the hard part was a
couple of parents would step in and tell me I am the mother----if I
don�t want her to go then I should put my foot down. My children have
no right to make decisions that I don�t like----this just doesn�t sit
right with me. I think they need to start controlling some of their
future and decisions now-----
I need to trust that Caty knows what is best for Caty. It�s just
hard----it was hard with Rio----but Rio did fine.
-=-especially some of the family and they specifically don�t think she
will succeed because they think what I am doing is wrong. They say Caty
is too lazy----I argue she is not interested in Mike and Rio and there
are other things in life besides what is in books.-=-
Sounds like she's getting plenty of negativity from being home. Maybe
in
school she could find people who aren't comparing her to siblings.
[Kime] Maybe---the negativity was only spawned from her wanting to go to
school----this wasn�t an issue before. She was looked at for her
accomplishments----now she is being compared because she is choosing a
new direction. And she is choosing a new direction because we can�t
afford the one she was in.
-=- They say that Caty
going to school will prove that my unschooling is not working----- I
don�t unschool to prepare my children for school ---I am trying to
prepare them for life.-=-
Well...
School isn't life, but life does include schools of all kinds.
If she can't choose, she has no choice.
[Kime] Agree----
-=-This is not a park day, and we will be watched. When
you open the doors people look in. -=-
People watch at park days too.
Some people in/around school won't bother to care about her family.
It's
work to really know a kid's background, and few at school will do any
extra
work.
[Kime] Yep-----thanks Sandra----we a going down to the school today to
let her speak with a counselor and the she can register.
[Kime]
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
In a message dated 8/1/05 10:54:52 AM, kskids7@... writes:
http://www.proactive-coach.com/relationships/codependent.htm
That's quite a bit of responsibility for a fourteen year old, to have even a
whiff of the idea that she would be betraying people. Harsh thought and
concept, betrayal.
-=-This is what Caty wishes for herself.-=-
From your account it sounds like it's not her first choice.
-=-We did this----thanks----it ways more heavily because everyone
had a good argument---and different perspective.
I just decide Cat needed to decide for herself----=-
She could (and will) use other people's opinions as input and factors when
deciding for herself, won't she?
"You need to decide for yourself" should not preclude advice or assistance
with what all the considerations are.
-=-the hard part was a
couple of parents would step in and tell me I am the mother----if I
don’t want her to go then I should put my foot down. -=-
-=- I think they need to start controlling some of their
future and decisions now------=-
You said you waited until they were 14, though, to give them a choice.
When I had to wait until I was 14 to wear makeup, by god I wore makeup at 14.
I decided to let Holly wear all the makeup she wanted whenever she wanted
to, and when she was little she messed around with it quite a bit, and now at
13 she has gotten the whole urge out of her system. She wears nail polish
sometimes. That's it.
I had to wait until I was 15 to go on dates, and I was "only" allowed to go
out three times a week: until 11:00 (later midnight) on Friday and Saturday,
and until 10:30 on Wednesday. Guess what? I went. I arranged to go. I
was out those three times (sometimes alone in a car with a boy, but not
always) because I had waited for it, I had "paid my dues," it was a limited offer,
it was "use it or lose it"--no banking up of days or hours, and so I went out.
Maybe by making children wait fourteen years for a decision, they will only
feel powerful and "decisive" if they make decisions you don't like so that it
really shows. If they just do what will make the mom feel happy (and not feel
"betrayed") it won't seem like a decision.
I think you have many more rules and timings and requirements and such than
we do at our house.
-=-Maybe---the negativity was only spawned from her wanting to go to
school----this wasn’t an issue before. She was looked at for her
accomplishments---=-
What if she hadn't had "accomplishments"?
"Spawn" is a negative word too. Why can't her decision be something that
doesn't cause ANYTHING to "spawn" (nor any negativity)?
-=-And she is choosing a new direction because we can’t
afford the one she was in.-=-
So?
Does she have a choice or not?
I still think you should borrow money to keep her in gymnastics.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -I think the older children and I are feelingIf her personal choice feels like betrayal, this might help:
> betrayed----Caty has every right to try school and if she doesn’t like
> it she should have the choice not continue
>
http://www.proactive-coach.com/relationships/codependent.htm
That's quite a bit of responsibility for a fourteen year old, to have even a
whiff of the idea that she would be betraying people. Harsh thought and
concept, betrayal.
-=-This is what Caty wishes for herself.-=-
From your account it sounds like it's not her first choice.
-=-We did this----thanks----it ways more heavily because everyone
had a good argument---and different perspective.
I just decide Cat needed to decide for herself----=-
She could (and will) use other people's opinions as input and factors when
deciding for herself, won't she?
"You need to decide for yourself" should not preclude advice or assistance
with what all the considerations are.
-=-the hard part was a
couple of parents would step in and tell me I am the mother----if I
don’t want her to go then I should put my foot down. -=-
-=- I think they need to start controlling some of their
future and decisions now------=-
You said you waited until they were 14, though, to give them a choice.
When I had to wait until I was 14 to wear makeup, by god I wore makeup at 14.
I decided to let Holly wear all the makeup she wanted whenever she wanted
to, and when she was little she messed around with it quite a bit, and now at
13 she has gotten the whole urge out of her system. She wears nail polish
sometimes. That's it.
I had to wait until I was 15 to go on dates, and I was "only" allowed to go
out three times a week: until 11:00 (later midnight) on Friday and Saturday,
and until 10:30 on Wednesday. Guess what? I went. I arranged to go. I
was out those three times (sometimes alone in a car with a boy, but not
always) because I had waited for it, I had "paid my dues," it was a limited offer,
it was "use it or lose it"--no banking up of days or hours, and so I went out.
Maybe by making children wait fourteen years for a decision, they will only
feel powerful and "decisive" if they make decisions you don't like so that it
really shows. If they just do what will make the mom feel happy (and not feel
"betrayed") it won't seem like a decision.
I think you have many more rules and timings and requirements and such than
we do at our house.
-=-Maybe---the negativity was only spawned from her wanting to go to
school----this wasn’t an issue before. She was looked at for her
accomplishments---=-
What if she hadn't had "accomplishments"?
"Spawn" is a negative word too. Why can't her decision be something that
doesn't cause ANYTHING to "spawn" (nor any negativity)?
-=-And she is choosing a new direction because we can’t
afford the one she was in.-=-
So?
Does she have a choice or not?
I still think you should borrow money to keep her in gymnastics.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<Addressing the owners of the gym and asking if there is any way you or
Caty could barter with them will help them to realize just how serious she
is about it. >>>
I missed the first part of this discussion but as a former karate student
and teacher and the current mom of a gymnast, this is a very common
situation.
I've known people to barter secretarial work, law expertise, janitorial
work, cooking, babysitting, etc. so their kids could take classes. My
daughter was able to work a deal where she helped with the tiny tot classes
and she was only 12. Give it a shot. It can't hurt.
Julie S.
Caty could barter with them will help them to realize just how serious she
is about it. >>>
I missed the first part of this discussion but as a former karate student
and teacher and the current mom of a gymnast, this is a very common
situation.
I've known people to barter secretarial work, law expertise, janitorial
work, cooking, babysitting, etc. so their kids could take classes. My
daughter was able to work a deal where she helped with the tiny tot classes
and she was only 12. Give it a shot. It can't hurt.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Angela S." <game-enthusiast@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 5:47 AM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: puplic school
> If having to quit gymnastics was the trigger (and it sounds like it
> was), find a way for her to return. Working. Bake sales. A paper
> route. A loan for now. If gymnastics is her passion, and you
> unschool -- well, you can put it together from there.
Making people aware of your dreams allows them to help you if they choose
to. Addressing the owners of the gym and asking if there is any way you or
Caty could barter with them will help them to realize just how serious she
is about it. They can't help you if you don't make them aware of the
situation. I vote to try to find a way to get her back at the gym as often
as possible. Must be something you could try that you haven't thought of.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
Yahoo! Groups Links
Betsy Hill
**They are not pleased she wants to go to public school and bring
negative attention to us. They don’t think she will like it.
Kevin says that Caty thinks public school is going to be like “That’s so
Raven”. And they don’t want her going then dropping out in 4 wks.**
If this many members of my family were trying to act like they were my parents and steer my course through life, I think I'd be cranky and rebellious and generally pissed off about it. I think being parented by committee is irksome. (I'm the oldest in my family, so I haven't had to live with it myself.)
**
Steve doesn’t want her in school either but feels pushed and thus
insists if she goes he will decide what she can and cant’ do---including
honors courses. **
She seems to me to be too old to be treated like a puppet! Your husband and older kids seem to only believe in empowering unschooled children when it suits them, but are quick to throw the principles overboard when it gets challenging. I understand that so far it is just unsupportive words (not many unsupportive actions) and it's good that everyone can be honest, but the weight of all these negative opinions is building up to be pretty crushing.
Sincerely,
Betsy H.
negative attention to us. They don’t think she will like it.
Kevin says that Caty thinks public school is going to be like “That’s so
Raven”. And they don’t want her going then dropping out in 4 wks.**
If this many members of my family were trying to act like they were my parents and steer my course through life, I think I'd be cranky and rebellious and generally pissed off about it. I think being parented by committee is irksome. (I'm the oldest in my family, so I haven't had to live with it myself.)
**
Steve doesn’t want her in school either but feels pushed and thus
insists if she goes he will decide what she can and cant’ do---including
honors courses. **
She seems to me to be too old to be treated like a puppet! Your husband and older kids seem to only believe in empowering unschooled children when it suits them, but are quick to throw the principles overboard when it gets challenging. I understand that so far it is just unsupportive words (not many unsupportive actions) and it's good that everyone can be honest, but the weight of all these negative opinions is building up to be pretty crushing.
Sincerely,
Betsy H.
Kime
I am still reading---nothing is in stone----I never
thought about the waiting issue----that age was picked because you can
not get a work permit in NV until you are 14. Until then we just
enjoyed what we could and a couple of children chose some strong
directions. Mike did become a Master at chess----Caty did become an
optional gymnast. But Mike�s sport got cheaper as he go better and
Caty�s go more expensive. We had to pull 3 of the other children out of
their activities also---they haven�t had the chance to get that good.
We do not qualify for any credit----we are basically extended because of
our medical bills right now. I can�t fix our finances----I told the
children that we have to live within our financial means. And this
changes constantly. We had been flush for about 3 yrs. and the
children had more choices----(not jobs of course----but activities)
Now, we can�t afford these things and we had to leave all our
activities----Caty paid the highest price, Mike wasn�t as affected
because his sport earned him money and scholarships.
I still believe you may be correct on the fact that she is going because
she now has a choice and did not have this choice before----but it never
even occurred to us that one of the children would want to go to school.
But I don�t want to deny her other opportunities that she thinks the
schools will provide her.
I am still sick over it---and your correct in some respects she no
longer has certain choices anymore. She can choose to get a volunteer
job now----but she doesn�t want to do that. Her choices are limited to
what we can afford. This yr. Mike has decide to go to college�he has a
scholarship, and Kevin is working, and Rio is staying home---taking some
online college courses with her small earnings----babysitting. Caty
wants to be at school.
I feel the negativity because I feel like I failed her or made home so
miserable that she would prefer to be away 6 hrs a day at gym----or now
at a school. The older children feel like she is going to change our
way of life with school-----but it is changing constantly now with the
older children setting out on their own.
We probably do have more many more rules and timings here----part of it
is due to the children out numbering us and myself becoming to
exhausted trying to keep up with 7 children. My timings are due to what
is legal and acceptable to both Steve and I -----they can�t stay home
alone till 11----they can�t baby sit till 13, they can�t stay up all
night till 13----the older children set this one----due to the fact they
don�t want to assist or be responsible for their younger brothers and
sisters----and because they get so cranky. So yes we do have timings
here----age passages. My house never sleeps----it is awake 24/7 with
the 4 older on their own schedules---and the kitchen never closes.
Thanks for your input and questions it gave us something to think about
and clarify.
I don�t know if I am doing a good job here though. Our feeling are
running high here in the family, I do apologize for letting them out
here----I am not as upset as Sunday----but then we have all come to
accept the decisions being made by everyone here.
Kime
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of SandraDodd@...
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 10:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: puplic school
In a message dated 8/1/05 10:54:52 AM, kskids7@... writes:
HYPERLINK
"http://www.proactive-coach.com/relationships/codependent.htm"http://www
.proactive-coach.com/relationships/codependent.htm
That's quite a bit of responsibility for a fourteen year old, to have
even a
whiff of the idea that she would be betraying people. Harsh thought
and
concept, betrayal.
-=-This is what Caty wishes for herself.-=-
From your account it sounds like it's not her first choice.
-=-We did this----thanks----it ways more heavily because everyone
had a good argument---and different perspective.
I just decide Cat needed to decide for herself----=-
She could (and will) use other people's opinions as input and factors
when
deciding for herself, won't she?
"You need to decide for yourself" should not preclude advice or
assistance
with what all the considerations are.
-=-the hard part was a
couple of parents would step in and tell me I am the mother----if I
don�t want her to go then I should put my foot down. -=-
-=- I think they need to start controlling some of their
future and decisions now------=-
You said you waited until they were 14, though, to give them a choice.
When I had to wait until I was 14 to wear makeup, by god I wore makeup
at 14.
I decided to let Holly wear all the makeup she wanted whenever she
wanted
to, and when she was little she messed around with it quite a bit, and
now at
13 she has gotten the whole urge out of her system. She wears nail
polish
sometimes. That's it.
I had to wait until I was 15 to go on dates, and I was "only" allowed to
go
out three times a week: until 11:00 (later midnight) on Friday and
Saturday,
and until 10:30 on Wednesday. Guess what? I went. I arranged to
go. I
was out those three times (sometimes alone in a car with a boy, but not
always) because I had waited for it, I had "paid my dues," it was a
limited offer,
it was "use it or lose it"--no banking up of days or hours, and so I
went out.
Maybe by making children wait fourteen years for a decision, they will
only
feel powerful and "decisive" if they make decisions you don't like so
that it
really shows. If they just do what will make the mom feel happy (and
not feel
"betrayed") it won't seem like a decision.
I think you have many more rules and timings and requirements and such
than
we do at our house.
-=-Maybe---the negativity was only spawned from her wanting to go to
school----this wasn�t an issue before. She was looked at for her
accomplishments---=-
What if she hadn't had "accomplishments"?
"Spawn" is a negative word too. Why can't her decision be something
that
doesn't cause ANYTHING to "spawn" (nor any negativity)?
-=-And she is choosing a new direction because we can�t
afford the one she was in.-=-
So?
Does she have a choice or not?
I still think you should borrow money to keep her in gymnastics.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group "HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning"AlwaysLearning" on the
web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HYPERLINK
"mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe"A
[email protected]
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service.
_____
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thought about the waiting issue----that age was picked because you can
not get a work permit in NV until you are 14. Until then we just
enjoyed what we could and a couple of children chose some strong
directions. Mike did become a Master at chess----Caty did become an
optional gymnast. But Mike�s sport got cheaper as he go better and
Caty�s go more expensive. We had to pull 3 of the other children out of
their activities also---they haven�t had the chance to get that good.
We do not qualify for any credit----we are basically extended because of
our medical bills right now. I can�t fix our finances----I told the
children that we have to live within our financial means. And this
changes constantly. We had been flush for about 3 yrs. and the
children had more choices----(not jobs of course----but activities)
Now, we can�t afford these things and we had to leave all our
activities----Caty paid the highest price, Mike wasn�t as affected
because his sport earned him money and scholarships.
I still believe you may be correct on the fact that she is going because
she now has a choice and did not have this choice before----but it never
even occurred to us that one of the children would want to go to school.
But I don�t want to deny her other opportunities that she thinks the
schools will provide her.
I am still sick over it---and your correct in some respects she no
longer has certain choices anymore. She can choose to get a volunteer
job now----but she doesn�t want to do that. Her choices are limited to
what we can afford. This yr. Mike has decide to go to college�he has a
scholarship, and Kevin is working, and Rio is staying home---taking some
online college courses with her small earnings----babysitting. Caty
wants to be at school.
I feel the negativity because I feel like I failed her or made home so
miserable that she would prefer to be away 6 hrs a day at gym----or now
at a school. The older children feel like she is going to change our
way of life with school-----but it is changing constantly now with the
older children setting out on their own.
We probably do have more many more rules and timings here----part of it
is due to the children out numbering us and myself becoming to
exhausted trying to keep up with 7 children. My timings are due to what
is legal and acceptable to both Steve and I -----they can�t stay home
alone till 11----they can�t baby sit till 13, they can�t stay up all
night till 13----the older children set this one----due to the fact they
don�t want to assist or be responsible for their younger brothers and
sisters----and because they get so cranky. So yes we do have timings
here----age passages. My house never sleeps----it is awake 24/7 with
the 4 older on their own schedules---and the kitchen never closes.
Thanks for your input and questions it gave us something to think about
and clarify.
I don�t know if I am doing a good job here though. Our feeling are
running high here in the family, I do apologize for letting them out
here----I am not as upset as Sunday----but then we have all come to
accept the decisions being made by everyone here.
Kime
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of SandraDodd@...
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 10:13 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: puplic school
In a message dated 8/1/05 10:54:52 AM, kskids7@... writes:
> -I think the older children and I are feelingIf her personal choice feels like betrayal, this might help:
> betrayed----Caty has every right to try school and if she doesn�t like
> it she should have the choice not continue
>
HYPERLINK
"http://www.proactive-coach.com/relationships/codependent.htm"http://www
.proactive-coach.com/relationships/codependent.htm
That's quite a bit of responsibility for a fourteen year old, to have
even a
whiff of the idea that she would be betraying people. Harsh thought
and
concept, betrayal.
-=-This is what Caty wishes for herself.-=-
From your account it sounds like it's not her first choice.
-=-We did this----thanks----it ways more heavily because everyone
had a good argument---and different perspective.
I just decide Cat needed to decide for herself----=-
She could (and will) use other people's opinions as input and factors
when
deciding for herself, won't she?
"You need to decide for yourself" should not preclude advice or
assistance
with what all the considerations are.
-=-the hard part was a
couple of parents would step in and tell me I am the mother----if I
don�t want her to go then I should put my foot down. -=-
-=- I think they need to start controlling some of their
future and decisions now------=-
You said you waited until they were 14, though, to give them a choice.
When I had to wait until I was 14 to wear makeup, by god I wore makeup
at 14.
I decided to let Holly wear all the makeup she wanted whenever she
wanted
to, and when she was little she messed around with it quite a bit, and
now at
13 she has gotten the whole urge out of her system. She wears nail
polish
sometimes. That's it.
I had to wait until I was 15 to go on dates, and I was "only" allowed to
go
out three times a week: until 11:00 (later midnight) on Friday and
Saturday,
and until 10:30 on Wednesday. Guess what? I went. I arranged to
go. I
was out those three times (sometimes alone in a car with a boy, but not
always) because I had waited for it, I had "paid my dues," it was a
limited offer,
it was "use it or lose it"--no banking up of days or hours, and so I
went out.
Maybe by making children wait fourteen years for a decision, they will
only
feel powerful and "decisive" if they make decisions you don't like so
that it
really shows. If they just do what will make the mom feel happy (and
not feel
"betrayed") it won't seem like a decision.
I think you have many more rules and timings and requirements and such
than
we do at our house.
-=-Maybe---the negativity was only spawned from her wanting to go to
school----this wasn�t an issue before. She was looked at for her
accomplishments---=-
What if she hadn't had "accomplishments"?
"Spawn" is a negative word too. Why can't her decision be something
that
doesn't cause ANYTHING to "spawn" (nor any negativity)?
-=-And she is choosing a new direction because we can�t
afford the one she was in.-=-
So?
Does she have a choice or not?
I still think you should borrow money to keep her in gymnastics.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group "HYPERLINK
"http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning"AlwaysLearning" on the
web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HYPERLINK
"mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe"A
[email protected]
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK
"http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo! Terms of Service.
_____
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.8/61 - Release Date: 8/1/2005
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.0/63 - Release Date: 8/3/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/05 10:39:39 PM, kskids7@... writes:
your house, and I can't advise. Just advise for the rest of the readers that
arbitrary ages and rules generally lead away from good relationships and
choices, and not toward them.
Sorry,
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> they can’t stay homeWe didn't have that, so what worked for us is a window that has passed at
> alone till 11----they can’t baby sit till 13, they can’t stay up all
> night till 13----the older children set this one----due to the fact they
> don’t want to assist or be responsible for their younger brothers and
> sisters----and because they get so cranky. So yes we do have timings
> here----age passages.
>
your house, and I can't advise. Just advise for the rest of the readers that
arbitrary ages and rules generally lead away from good relationships and
choices, and not toward them.
Sorry,
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/05 10:39:39 PM, kskids7@... writes:
at
your house, and I can't advise. Just advise for the rest of the
readers that
arbitrary ages and rules generally lead away from good relationships
and
choices, and not toward them.
-=-=-=-
Unfortunately, I think Sandra's point was made before she even gave her
answer:
Here are older children who wanted to make a rule for the younger ones
so that the older ones didn't have to assist or be responsible for
them. It's too bad the older ones didn't want to assist. It's too bad
that they felt responsible. Too bad the younger ones were cranky. Too
bad their relationships were damaged before they could even get off the
ground.
These arbitrary rules have already led away from good relationships and
choices.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/05 10:39:39 PM, kskids7@... writes:
> they can?t stay homethey
> alone till 11----they can?t baby sit till 13, they can?t stay up all
> night till 13----the older children set this one----due to the fact
> don?t want to assist or be responsible for their younger brothers andWe didn't have that, so what worked for us is a window that has passed
> sisters----and because they get so cranky. So yes we do have timings
> here----age passages.
>
at
your house, and I can't advise. Just advise for the rest of the
readers that
arbitrary ages and rules generally lead away from good relationships
and
choices, and not toward them.
-=-=-=-
Unfortunately, I think Sandra's point was made before she even gave her
answer:
Here are older children who wanted to make a rule for the younger ones
so that the older ones didn't have to assist or be responsible for
them. It's too bad the older ones didn't want to assist. It's too bad
that they felt responsible. Too bad the younger ones were cranky. Too
bad their relationships were damaged before they could even get off the
ground.
These arbitrary rules have already led away from good relationships and
choices.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
Mithrindir
Repy, makes since thanks Sandra
Kime
Kime
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: puplic school
In a message dated 8/3/05 10:39:39 PM, kskids7@... writes:
> they can’t stay home
> alone till 11----they can’t baby sit till 13, they can’t stay up all
> night till 13----the older children set this one----due to the fact they
> don’t want to assist or be responsible for their younger brothers and
> sisters----and because they get so cranky. So yes we do have timings
> here----age passages.
>
We didn't have that, so what worked for us is a window that has passed at
your house, and I can't advise. Just advise for the rest of the readers that
arbitrary ages and rules generally lead away from good relationships and
choices, and not toward them.
Sorry,
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
-----Original Message----
From: Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...>
I've heard that your first homeschooling conference was a raging
success. But hypothetically, if the first one had been kind of a
squib,
and then you had gone on to have bigger, fun-er conferences in future
years, that would be a fine example of "deferred success". I think I
just prefer to apply the word success or failure to the final state,
not
the steps on the way.
-=-=-=-
Raging success. <G>
LOL
Right.
My keynote speaker fell and spent the rest of the conference (plus
another couple of days [daze]) in the hospital on morphine. Three
funshoppers just didn't show up. And I lost just over a grand
personally.
The second year had some mishaps too. I guess they're unavoidable. But
at least I didn't lose my shirt!
So----just don't believe everything you hear! <G>
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe it's helpful to consider phrases like "short-term failure" or
"temporary setback".
-=-=-=--=
I don't like either of those terms. "Learning-takes" is better---for me
anyway.
I figure I'm learning all the time. I try NOT to look at things as
failures or as deferred successes: I just haven't figured it out...yet!
<g>
-=-=-=-
I think institutional schooling implies to kids
that if they flunk one test about the Civil War they will be
perpetually
stupid in that area and may never have the ability or opportunity to
learn about it.
-=-=-=--=-=
I think that's EXACTLY what it does. Damn school to hell! <g>
~Kelly
From: Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...>
I've heard that your first homeschooling conference was a raging
success. But hypothetically, if the first one had been kind of a
squib,
and then you had gone on to have bigger, fun-er conferences in future
years, that would be a fine example of "deferred success". I think I
just prefer to apply the word success or failure to the final state,
not
the steps on the way.
-=-=-=-
Raging success. <G>
LOL
Right.
My keynote speaker fell and spent the rest of the conference (plus
another couple of days [daze]) in the hospital on morphine. Three
funshoppers just didn't show up. And I lost just over a grand
personally.
The second year had some mishaps too. I guess they're unavoidable. But
at least I didn't lose my shirt!
So----just don't believe everything you hear! <G>
-=-=-=-=-
Maybe it's helpful to consider phrases like "short-term failure" or
"temporary setback".
-=-=-=--=
I don't like either of those terms. "Learning-takes" is better---for me
anyway.
I figure I'm learning all the time. I try NOT to look at things as
failures or as deferred successes: I just haven't figured it out...yet!
<g>
-=-=-=-
I think institutional schooling implies to kids
that if they flunk one test about the Civil War they will be
perpetually
stupid in that area and may never have the ability or opportunity to
learn about it.
-=-=-=--=-=
I think that's EXACTLY what it does. Damn school to hell! <g>
~Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/05 9:51:03 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
example) or to just learn.
If learning is the goal...
Well but there might be something like learning to knit. If you want to
learn to knit you might have deferred success, I guess. Or just a slow start if
you don't pick it up easily.
Marty kinda started learning banjo. He hasn't failed to learn banjo, he
just hasn't finished yet.
Kirby, lately, guitar--just kinda a little. Same thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Maybe it's helpful to consider phrases like "short-term failure" orDepends if the goal is to pass a test or be certified (driver's ed is a good
> "temporary setback".
>
> -=-=-=--=
>
> I don't like either of those terms. "Learning-takes" is better---for me
> anyway.
>
example) or to just learn.
If learning is the goal...
Well but there might be something like learning to knit. If you want to
learn to knit you might have deferred success, I guess. Or just a slow start if
you don't pick it up easily.
Marty kinda started learning banjo. He hasn't failed to learn banjo, he
just hasn't finished yet.
Kirby, lately, guitar--just kinda a little. Same thing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** Raging success. <G>
LOL
Right.
My keynote speaker fell and spent the rest of the conference (plus
another couple of days [daze]) in the hospital on morphine. Three
funshoppers just didn't show up. And I lost just over a grand
personally.**
But it went down in the history books <g> as a success as people just
couldn't stop burbling about it afterwards. And the subsequent
conferences overwrite people's memories of the first, right? (Your
reality is just sharper and bites harder than everyone else's reality --
excepting of course the pain in Sandra's ankle.)
** So----just don't believe everything you hear! <G>**
Unless a teacher or textbook says so??? <eg>
** I don't like either of those terms. "Learning-takes" is better---for me
anyway.
I figure I'm learning all the time. I try NOT to look at things as
failures or as deferred successes: I just haven't figured it out...yet!
<g>**
I love the coinage of the term "funshop", because "work-shop" is only
maybe two notches better than "sweatshop". (Ick!) I'll try to adopt
"learning-takes" or coin my own positive word. (Ventures? As in
"Nothing ventured nothing gained.")
Pam has stated "learning is pleasurable", which is a topic I'd like to
play with a bit more. When Edison persistently tested all those light
bulb filaments, was he feeling pleasure? Clearly something was learned
from each outcome. (I know he had a positive way of looking at each
negative test result, but was it actually pleasurable?)
I think bopping ideas around on these email lists is a pleasure,
especially when that light bulb goes on in my head!
Betsy
LOL
Right.
My keynote speaker fell and spent the rest of the conference (plus
another couple of days [daze]) in the hospital on morphine. Three
funshoppers just didn't show up. And I lost just over a grand
personally.**
But it went down in the history books <g> as a success as people just
couldn't stop burbling about it afterwards. And the subsequent
conferences overwrite people's memories of the first, right? (Your
reality is just sharper and bites harder than everyone else's reality --
excepting of course the pain in Sandra's ankle.)
** So----just don't believe everything you hear! <G>**
Unless a teacher or textbook says so??? <eg>
** I don't like either of those terms. "Learning-takes" is better---for me
anyway.
I figure I'm learning all the time. I try NOT to look at things as
failures or as deferred successes: I just haven't figured it out...yet!
<g>**
I love the coinage of the term "funshop", because "work-shop" is only
maybe two notches better than "sweatshop". (Ick!) I'll try to adopt
"learning-takes" or coin my own positive word. (Ventures? As in
"Nothing ventured nothing gained.")
Pam has stated "learning is pleasurable", which is a topic I'd like to
play with a bit more. When Edison persistently tested all those light
bulb filaments, was he feeling pleasure? Clearly something was learned
from each outcome. (I know he had a positive way of looking at each
negative test result, but was it actually pleasurable?)
I think bopping ideas around on these email lists is a pleasure,
especially when that light bulb goes on in my head!
Betsy
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...>
I love the coinage of the term "funshop", because "work-shop" is only
maybe two notches better than "sweatshop". (Ick!) I'll try to adopt
"learning-takes" or coin my own positive word. (Ventures? As in
"Nothing ventured nothing gained.")
-=-=-=-
I have a friend that calls it "puddin'"---I think that's from _Tom
Sawyer_, but I'm not sure. Mark's always "lookin' for puddin'"---going
on adventures.
~Kelly
From: Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...>
I love the coinage of the term "funshop", because "work-shop" is only
maybe two notches better than "sweatshop". (Ick!) I'll try to adopt
"learning-takes" or coin my own positive word. (Ventures? As in
"Nothing ventured nothing gained.")
-=-=-=-
I have a friend that calls it "puddin'"---I think that's from _Tom
Sawyer_, but I'm not sure. Mark's always "lookin' for puddin'"---going
on adventures.
~Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/05 11:22:24 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:
obsession (which can be fun).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> pleasure? ClearlyWell he wasn't getting paid, so he must've been doing it for fun or out of
>
obsession (which can be fun).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>I think replacing one dead plant with another one that can thrive in
>
that spot is "success" or in that new phrase "deferred success". My
definition of (abject) failure would be planting one plant, having it
die, and concluding "I can't grow anything here".
So it depends on the stated goal.
I want to grow moonflowers. I have vines taller than I am but no flowers.
It's not that I want to grow something in that spot, I want to grow
MOONFLOWERS (that bloom).
If school changes the name of "fail" to "deffered success," it will only be a
week before kids refer to slower kids as "deferred kids." When our
school went from "retarded" to "special ed" it didn't even take as much as a week
for the new insult to be "you special-ed," or "Why don't you go to special ed?"
YES, when money is involved, a below average kid can eventually "out-succeed"
his schoolmates.
When grade levels and age divisions and evaluations are involved, the kids
wll not care if you call it strawberry ice cream heaven, behind is behind and
they know it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/7/2005 12:12:37 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I want to grow moonflowers. I have vines taller than I am but no flowers.
It's not that I want to grow something in that spot, I want to grow
MOONFLOWERS (that bloom).
~~~
Don't water them so much. If you've fertilized, stop. Profuse vines with
no blooms usually means the conditions are "too good".
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
I want to grow moonflowers. I have vines taller than I am but no flowers.
It's not that I want to grow something in that spot, I want to grow
MOONFLOWERS (that bloom).
~~~
Don't water them so much. If you've fertilized, stop. Profuse vines with
no blooms usually means the conditions are "too good".
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie W
>I have NEVER been able to get Moonflowers to grow much let alone bloom.
>In a message dated 8/7/2005 12:12:37 PM Central Standard Time,
>SandraDodd@... writes:
>
>I want to grow moonflowers. I have vines taller than I am but no flowers.
>
>It's not that I want to grow something in that spot, I want to grow
>MOONFLOWERS (that bloom).
>
>
>
>~~~
>
>Don't water them so much. If you've fertilized, stop. Profuse vines with
>no blooms usually means the conditions are "too good".
>
>Karen
>
>
>
Morning Glories love my place and grow and bloom wherever I put them,
but Moonflowes (and Hollyhocks) just do not like me.
Julie W in AR (where everything is dying 'case it seems to rain
everywhere in the state but my house)
finnaland
"Failure is not an option."
I saw that on a couple of landscaping trucks the other day of all things.
It works for Unschoolers, too, because we aren't testing, we aren't
comparing, we aren't holding ourselves to other people's standards.
I doubt people who look at themselves and their children as failures
stick around the unschooling boards very long.
You get to choose which mindset you prefer, and I prefer Joy.
--SK
I saw that on a couple of landscaping trucks the other day of all things.
It works for Unschoolers, too, because we aren't testing, we aren't
comparing, we aren't holding ourselves to other people's standards.
I doubt people who look at themselves and their children as failures
stick around the unschooling boards very long.
You get to choose which mindset you prefer, and I prefer Joy.
--SK