[AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
Nanci Kuykendall
Here is a topic related to grading/awards and books
that I'm pondering right now. I have had several
people recommend to me (in the course of seeking fun
things that my kids might like to do/be involved in)
the "great summer reading program" at our local
library. With this program (called Read Around the
World and having a vague travel/world theme) the kids
get a passport booklog in which they log time they
read or are read to in 30 minute increments. For
every 4 hours of reading time they get to pick a prize
from a library "treasure box." When they log 24
hours, they get to have their names entered into a
drawing for bigger prizes.
This kind of thing naturally turns me off, as I feel
it's pushing outside motivation and bribes onto kids
for doing something that they should be doing only
because they enjoy it. I can't help thinking it will
damage their internal motivation, and their already
great love of books and stories. I know my boys would
be baffled by the idea that strangers will give them
prizes for enjoying the piles of books we get from the
library each week or that we already have at home. Is
this a harmless and potentially fun thing for them to
be involved in, or a schooly scoobie snack program
that will be intrinsically damaging to them? Does
anyone else have thoughts on this?
Nanci K.
that I'm pondering right now. I have had several
people recommend to me (in the course of seeking fun
things that my kids might like to do/be involved in)
the "great summer reading program" at our local
library. With this program (called Read Around the
World and having a vague travel/world theme) the kids
get a passport booklog in which they log time they
read or are read to in 30 minute increments. For
every 4 hours of reading time they get to pick a prize
from a library "treasure box." When they log 24
hours, they get to have their names entered into a
drawing for bigger prizes.
This kind of thing naturally turns me off, as I feel
it's pushing outside motivation and bribes onto kids
for doing something that they should be doing only
because they enjoy it. I can't help thinking it will
damage their internal motivation, and their already
great love of books and stories. I know my boys would
be baffled by the idea that strangers will give them
prizes for enjoying the piles of books we get from the
library each week or that we already have at home. Is
this a harmless and potentially fun thing for them to
be involved in, or a schooly scoobie snack program
that will be intrinsically damaging to them? Does
anyone else have thoughts on this?
Nanci K.
Gold Standard
>>With this program (called Read Around theGive them all the information on the program and ask them if they want to do
>>World and having a vague travel/world theme) the kids
>>get a passport booklog in which they log time they
>>read or are read to in 30 minute increments.<<
>>Does anyone else have thoughts on this?<<
it. Otherwise, drop it. If you don't think it's something they will like and
be interested in, they probably won't be. What are they interested in?
Jacki
queenjane555
> Is this a harmless and potentially fun thing for them toI think it depends on who's decision it is, and the reasoning behind
> be involved in, or a schooly scoobie snack program
> that will be intrinsically damaging to them? Does
> anyone else have thoughts on this?
the decision. Our local library is having a similar program, and the
theme is "Knights, Dragons, and Dreams" or some such thing, the
emphasis seemed to be on fantasy and seamus is into that right now.
Every week they'll have a programs relating to the theme. I thought
seamus might like it, and give us something fun to do this summer.
He was like "reading program? No way." He doesnt particularly like
to read books on his own (and when he does, its mostly nonfiction,
like those Eyewitness Books on "Minerals" or "Robots"), although i
do read to him every night (plus side of that is we are reading
books that are far more "advanced" than what he could read on his
own right now)...anyhow, we needed to stop by the library to pick up
a book we ordered (one of The Lost Years of Merlin series), and he
saw the display for the library program. Kids can earn one "ticket"
for each picture book, or two tickets for each chapter or nonfiction
book read, and save up to win prizes. He liked a couple of the
prizes, and said "Hmmmm...i think i'm rethinking my decision!"
Is it "wrong" for him to want to read books solely to win a prize? I
dont think its much different than playing skiball at Chuck E.
Cheese to get a ticket to win a toy. He can choose at any time not
to do it, and if i end up reading the books TO him (which will
probably happen), i still feel its within the "rules" of the
program. I think for an unschooler who *knows* that they can read
the books or not, go to the program or not, buy those prizes at the
store if they decide to do that, and know that being a "good reader"
is not about how many books you read, or proving to anyone that you
did so, that any "damage" might be minimal.
Mostly we'll be going for the weekly program, i dont think Seamus
will get too caught up in whether he's earning enough tickets to get
a prize.
Katherine
Jordan
>>>Here is a topic related to grading/awards and booksthat I'm pondering right now. I have had several
people recommend to me (in the course of seeking fun
things that my kids might like to do/be involved in)
the "great summer reading program" at our local
library. With this program (called Read Around the
World and having a vague travel/world theme) the kids
get a passport booklog in which they log time they
read or are read to in 30 minute increments. For
every 4 hours of reading time they get to pick a prize
from a library "treasure box." When they log 24
hours, they get to have their names entered into a
drawing for bigger prizes.
This kind of thing naturally turns me off, as I feel
it's pushing outside motivation and bribes onto kids
for doing something that they should be doing only
because they enjoy it. I can't help thinking it will
damage their internal motivation, and their already
great love of books and stories. I know my boys would
be baffled by the idea that strangers will give them
prizes for enjoying the piles of books we get from the
library each week or that we already have at home. Is
this a harmless and potentially fun thing for them to
be involved in, or a schooly scoobie snack program
that will be intrinsically damaging to them? Does
anyone else have thoughts on this?<<<<
Funny that this should come up here, I just posted about it on another list,
so here is my 2 cents:
I wanted to talk more about the reward issue, especially as it relates to
summer and school mentality. I have a big problem with the basic premise of
Summer Reading Programs. The whole, read this many books, and well give
you stuff thing. (Alfie Kohn has a bit to say about this in Punished by
Rewards if anyone is interested.) Now, on the bases here, they have
shifted from a number of books to an hours of reading formula for
awarding prizes, but it still sends the message that reading is so wretched
that we NEED rewards for doing it.
I know that I could just let it go, but it just makes me so darn mad. I
mean why not have summer car repair programs at the base auto hobby shops?
Summer Craft marathons, summer take care of animals programs? Its not
like reading is the only way to learn, right? But with reading programs, we
tell them that reading is more important than other things, but still is so
difficult and unpleasant that if you suck it up and do it, youll get
stuff. My kids will tell our beloved library lady that reading is its own
reward when she asks them if they want to sign up for a program!
Tami, who likes to read no matter what the season, but has trouble knitting
in hot weather.
--
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/11/2005 10:28:49 PM Central Standard Time,
jacki@... writes:
Give them all the information on the program and ask them if they want to do
it. Otherwise, drop it. If you don't think it's something they will like and
be interested in, they probably won't be. What are they interested in?
~~~
Or, get the passport and log all the hours yourself and take them to the
library when they have enough and surpirse them with a trip to the treasure box.
Work the system to your advantage. ;)
Truly, though, Will is savvy to the secret of those kinds of things. He
doesn't live in a token economy in his every day life, so it's easy to see one
when he encounters it. He has freedom to choose to participate or not,
knowing already that the value of reading is in the reading, not the treasure box.
Because he's never been to school, and he's used to doing a thing as its own
reward, he would likely turn down something like that.
Will did something out of character for him last week. He quit his baseball
team in the middle of a game. It just wasn't fun anymore, for lots and lots
of reasons, and then there was the last straw that happened during that
game. But anyway, the coach kept saying during the season that if they won a
tournament, then he would buy pizza for everyone afterwards. They never won any
of the tournaments, but they got second place once and won a lot of games.
Will kept hoping that their success would at least lead to an invitation to
pizza with the team after a tournament, even if the coach didn't pay. It
never came. (This attitude is part of the reason he quit, but that's another
story.)
After he quit, he said, "I don't think they're going to win ANY tournaments,
anyway. Good thing for Coach Charlie--he won't have to buy pizza at all!"
Will wasn't playing ball for the pizza. He was playing ball for the FUN of
it, even after the coaches were clearly intent on sucking all the fun out of
it for him. But he was looking forward to having a pizza party for the FUN
of it. Not how Coach Charlie was looking at it, as some kind of strange
motivation to win.
Always unschooled Will has a wall full of baseball trophies which he
treasures--but he treasures the games he played to get them much more. Unschooled
kids have a better chance of putting such things in perspective. They grow up
with the idea that the doing it is the thing. Rewards are just the icing on
the cake. They have to operate in this culture that values rewards so
much--unschooled kids shouldn't be sheltered from it, but helped to keep it in
proper perspective.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jacki@... writes:
Give them all the information on the program and ask them if they want to do
it. Otherwise, drop it. If you don't think it's something they will like and
be interested in, they probably won't be. What are they interested in?
~~~
Or, get the passport and log all the hours yourself and take them to the
library when they have enough and surpirse them with a trip to the treasure box.
Work the system to your advantage. ;)
Truly, though, Will is savvy to the secret of those kinds of things. He
doesn't live in a token economy in his every day life, so it's easy to see one
when he encounters it. He has freedom to choose to participate or not,
knowing already that the value of reading is in the reading, not the treasure box.
Because he's never been to school, and he's used to doing a thing as its own
reward, he would likely turn down something like that.
Will did something out of character for him last week. He quit his baseball
team in the middle of a game. It just wasn't fun anymore, for lots and lots
of reasons, and then there was the last straw that happened during that
game. But anyway, the coach kept saying during the season that if they won a
tournament, then he would buy pizza for everyone afterwards. They never won any
of the tournaments, but they got second place once and won a lot of games.
Will kept hoping that their success would at least lead to an invitation to
pizza with the team after a tournament, even if the coach didn't pay. It
never came. (This attitude is part of the reason he quit, but that's another
story.)
After he quit, he said, "I don't think they're going to win ANY tournaments,
anyway. Good thing for Coach Charlie--he won't have to buy pizza at all!"
Will wasn't playing ball for the pizza. He was playing ball for the FUN of
it, even after the coaches were clearly intent on sucking all the fun out of
it for him. But he was looking forward to having a pizza party for the FUN
of it. Not how Coach Charlie was looking at it, as some kind of strange
motivation to win.
Always unschooled Will has a wall full of baseball trophies which he
treasures--but he treasures the games he played to get them much more. Unschooled
kids have a better chance of putting such things in perspective. They grow up
with the idea that the doing it is the thing. Rewards are just the icing on
the cake. They have to operate in this culture that values rewards so
much--unschooled kids shouldn't be sheltered from it, but helped to keep it in
proper perspective.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/12/2005 12:39:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
atj090@... writes:
This kind of thing naturally turns me off, as I feel
it's pushing outside motivation and bribes onto kids
for doing something that they should be doing only
because they enjoy it.
----------------------
Well...
At the Live and Learn conference each year there's a raffle, with things
people donated. Keith and I already have items in mind or ready. We're
donating them because someone might like them and the conference can make money that
way.
Should people give money to the conference's coffers just because it feels
good? Is giving them a chance to get a prize harmful to their motivation? Or
is it better motivation because of the gambling aspect? They might put in
lots of tickets and win nothing. <g>
Partly I'm bringing this up in a joking manner, but I just don't want people
to oversimplify the world and say that all "rewards" are evil. It kinda
depends how cool the award is, whether it's altogether voluntary, whether the
kid really would be reading anyway (in which case the reward is "free"), etc.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
atj090@... writes:
This kind of thing naturally turns me off, as I feel
it's pushing outside motivation and bribes onto kids
for doing something that they should be doing only
because they enjoy it.
----------------------
Well...
At the Live and Learn conference each year there's a raffle, with things
people donated. Keith and I already have items in mind or ready. We're
donating them because someone might like them and the conference can make money that
way.
Should people give money to the conference's coffers just because it feels
good? Is giving them a chance to get a prize harmful to their motivation? Or
is it better motivation because of the gambling aspect? They might put in
lots of tickets and win nothing. <g>
Partly I'm bringing this up in a joking manner, but I just don't want people
to oversimplify the world and say that all "rewards" are evil. It kinda
depends how cool the award is, whether it's altogether voluntary, whether the
kid really would be reading anyway (in which case the reward is "free"), etc.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris Swift
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
>
> In a message dated 6/12/2005 12:39:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> atj090@... writes:
>
> This kind of thing naturally turns me off, as I feel
> it's pushing outside motivation and bribes onto kids
> for doing something that they should be doing only
> because they enjoy it.
>
>
> ----------------------
Sandra
I agree with your sentiment but how do you get to the point where they can
enjoy it ?
Reading for instance is not a natural activity.
Reading a lot to children can get them into reading for themselves quite
naturally but not all children respond and not all parents are good (or
willing) book readers !
Chris
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/13/2005 5:36:32 AM Central Standard Time,
Chris@... writes:
Reading for instance is not a natural activity.
~~~
Neither is watching television or riding bicycles or hang-gliding.
Watching TV, riding bicycles and hang-gliding are all unnatural activities
(which is questionable, too, when you bring it down to the principles) which
are *enjoyable* because they're fun to do. (Did cavekids hang upside down
from tree limbs just for fun?) If your child didn't enjoy riding bikes, would
you be intent on "getting them" to? Even if you lived in country where
bicycles were the main form of transportation for lots of people (China comes to
mind)? Of course, there would be cultural reasons to want them to *learn* to
ride a bike. It just makes life easier to be able to ride a bike if you have
to ride one to get what you want anyway. These reasons would become apparent
to the child in short order. They'd learn to ride, for sure. Would
enjoying it be necessary to get on a bike and ride to your job across town? No--you
just have to be able to do it. You don't have to like it.
Same with reading. We can't make bookworms out of our kids. They either
like it or they don't. They might like it later, or not. It's an important
skill to have, but kids are capable of discerning whether they need it or not,
and whether it would be an pleasurable thing for them or not.
Plenty of people come out of school hating to read. "Getting them" to enjoy
it is a sure fire way to make an unschooled child feel the same way.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris@... writes:
Reading for instance is not a natural activity.
~~~
Neither is watching television or riding bicycles or hang-gliding.
Watching TV, riding bicycles and hang-gliding are all unnatural activities
(which is questionable, too, when you bring it down to the principles) which
are *enjoyable* because they're fun to do. (Did cavekids hang upside down
from tree limbs just for fun?) If your child didn't enjoy riding bikes, would
you be intent on "getting them" to? Even if you lived in country where
bicycles were the main form of transportation for lots of people (China comes to
mind)? Of course, there would be cultural reasons to want them to *learn* to
ride a bike. It just makes life easier to be able to ride a bike if you have
to ride one to get what you want anyway. These reasons would become apparent
to the child in short order. They'd learn to ride, for sure. Would
enjoying it be necessary to get on a bike and ride to your job across town? No--you
just have to be able to do it. You don't have to like it.
Same with reading. We can't make bookworms out of our kids. They either
like it or they don't. They might like it later, or not. It's an important
skill to have, but kids are capable of discerning whether they need it or not,
and whether it would be an pleasurable thing for them or not.
Plenty of people come out of school hating to read. "Getting them" to enjoy
it is a sure fire way to make an unschooled child feel the same way.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/13/2005 5:36:32 AM Central Standard Time,
Chris@... writes:
I agree with your sentiment but how do you get to the point where they can
enjoy it ?
~~~
Okay, I wrote that whole last post after I subconsciously added the word
"them" after "get" in the above sentence. After I read it again, I see it's not
there. I think it's the same intent behind the question. However, it's
different if you read it literally, and I think I have a different answer.
"how do YOU get to the point where THEY can enjoy it?"
Aren't your kids already enjoying reading? Even if they can't do it? Are
you reading them peer reviewed research articles or something? <g> Do they
enjoy reading the sign that tells them they're just tall enough to ride the
rollercoaster?
We read for information and we read for pleasure. I frequently get pleasure
from reading for information (this list, my son's newsletters from Iraq).
Reading is a tool. I don't have to enjoy using the hammer in order to get my
house built. I just have to do it. Of course, if I really enjoyed using the
hammer, I might build a lot more things and become a carpenter. But it's
not necessary for me to enjoy it to get what I want (my house built). The same
kind of pleasure I get from reading a novel I can get from watching a movie
or listening to it on tape.
Making the enjoyment of reading a goal for unschooled kids is missing the
point of unschooling. You want them to enjoy their life. Reading should go in
the same category as everything else they might enjoy. Lose the
school-think.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris@... writes:
I agree with your sentiment but how do you get to the point where they can
enjoy it ?
~~~
Okay, I wrote that whole last post after I subconsciously added the word
"them" after "get" in the above sentence. After I read it again, I see it's not
there. I think it's the same intent behind the question. However, it's
different if you read it literally, and I think I have a different answer.
"how do YOU get to the point where THEY can enjoy it?"
Aren't your kids already enjoying reading? Even if they can't do it? Are
you reading them peer reviewed research articles or something? <g> Do they
enjoy reading the sign that tells them they're just tall enough to ride the
rollercoaster?
We read for information and we read for pleasure. I frequently get pleasure
from reading for information (this list, my son's newsletters from Iraq).
Reading is a tool. I don't have to enjoy using the hammer in order to get my
house built. I just have to do it. Of course, if I really enjoyed using the
hammer, I might build a lot more things and become a carpenter. But it's
not necessary for me to enjoy it to get what I want (my house built). The same
kind of pleasure I get from reading a novel I can get from watching a movie
or listening to it on tape.
Making the enjoyment of reading a goal for unschooled kids is missing the
point of unschooling. You want them to enjoy their life. Reading should go in
the same category as everything else they might enjoy. Lose the
school-think.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/13/05 4:36:31 AM, Chris@... writes:
<< I agree with your sentiment but how do you get to the point where they can
enjoy it ? >>
How do I get the the point where they can enjoy it?
That's two different people.
I can't get to someone else's point.
http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax
I enjoyed reading for a reason that's entirely unavailable to my children.
The real purpose of "enjoying reading" is a school-purpose, at one level. If
they have other ways to get the same literature and information, reading isn't
as necessary, valuable or rarified as it was thirty or forty years ago.
-=-Reading for instance is not a natural activity.-=-
Information gathering is a natural activity.
Learning to do what others around us can do is a natural activity.
Interpreting markings is a natural activity.
I've seen children learn to read without lessons. are you suggesting that
"unnatural activities" must be taught methodically, or what?
-=-Reading a lot to children can get them into reading for themselves quite
naturally but not all children respond and not all parents are good (or
willing) book readers !-=-
If book reading is the goal, rather than a rich life full of learning, then
the parent had better become more willing or better at reading. If learning is
the goal, reading is just one part of a big life.
Sandra
<< I agree with your sentiment but how do you get to the point where they can
enjoy it ? >>
How do I get the the point where they can enjoy it?
That's two different people.
I can't get to someone else's point.
http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax
I enjoyed reading for a reason that's entirely unavailable to my children.
The real purpose of "enjoying reading" is a school-purpose, at one level. If
they have other ways to get the same literature and information, reading isn't
as necessary, valuable or rarified as it was thirty or forty years ago.
-=-Reading for instance is not a natural activity.-=-
Information gathering is a natural activity.
Learning to do what others around us can do is a natural activity.
Interpreting markings is a natural activity.
I've seen children learn to read without lessons. are you suggesting that
"unnatural activities" must be taught methodically, or what?
-=-Reading a lot to children can get them into reading for themselves quite
naturally but not all children respond and not all parents are good (or
willing) book readers !-=-
If book reading is the goal, rather than a rich life full of learning, then
the parent had better become more willing or better at reading. If learning is
the goal, reading is just one part of a big life.
Sandra
Chris Swift
Sandra
You didn't answer my point how do they get to enjoy reading ?
Are you saying it's purely down to how good a reader their parents are.
Perhaps their parents didn't have much education and would like their
children to do better.
You can either learn to read from example or you can get lessons.
Give a toddler a book to read with no assistance, how long will it take them
to read it.
Answer, never.
chris
You didn't answer my point how do they get to enjoy reading ?
Are you saying it's purely down to how good a reader their parents are.
Perhaps their parents didn't have much education and would like their
children to do better.
You can either learn to read from example or you can get lessons.
Give a toddler a book to read with no assistance, how long will it take them
to read it.
Answer, never.
chris
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
>
> In a message dated 6/13/05 4:36:31 AM, Chris@... writes:
>
> << I agree with your sentiment but how do you get to the point where they
can
> enjoy it ? >>
>
> How do I get the the point where they can enjoy it?
> That's two different people.
> I can't get to someone else's point.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax
>
>
> I enjoyed reading for a reason that's entirely unavailable to my children.
> The real purpose of "enjoying reading" is a school-purpose, at one level.
If
> they have other ways to get the same literature and information, reading
isn't
> as necessary, valuable or rarified as it was thirty or forty years ago.
>
> -=-Reading for instance is not a natural activity.-=-
>
> Information gathering is a natural activity.
> Learning to do what others around us can do is a natural activity.
> Interpreting markings is a natural activity.
>
> I've seen children learn to read without lessons. are you suggesting that
> "unnatural activities" must be taught methodically, or what?
>
> -=-Reading a lot to children can get them into reading for themselves
quite
> naturally but not all children respond and not all parents are good (or
> willing) book readers !-=-
>
> If book reading is the goal, rather than a rich life full of learning,
then
> the parent had better become more willing or better at reading. If
learning is
> the goal, reading is just one part of a big life.
>
> Sandra
J. Stauffer
<<<Reading a lot to children can get them into reading for themselves quite
naturally but not all children respond and not all parents are good (or
willing) book readers !>>>>
Some kids will enjoy taking a bath, others won't. Some kids will enjoy
gardening, others won't. Some kids will enjoy reading, others won't.
Julie S.
naturally but not all children respond and not all parents are good (or
willing) book readers !>>>>
Some kids will enjoy taking a bath, others won't. Some kids will enjoy
gardening, others won't. Some kids will enjoy reading, others won't.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Swift" <Chris@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <SandraDodd@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
>>
>> In a message dated 6/12/2005 12:39:47 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
>> atj090@... writes:
>>
>> This kind of thing naturally turns me off, as I feel
>> it's pushing outside motivation and bribes onto kids
>> for doing something that they should be doing only
>> because they enjoy it.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>
> Sandra
>
> I agree with your sentiment but how do you get to the point where they can
> enjoy it ?
>
> Reading for instance is not a natural activity.
>
> Reading a lot to children can get them into reading for themselves quite
> naturally but not all children respond and not all parents are good (or
> willing) book readers !
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Chris Swift
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
>
> Some kids will enjoy taking a bath, others won't. Some kids will enjoy
> gardening, others won't. Some kids will enjoy reading, others won't.
>
> Julie S.
Julie
Do you think it's ok to wait until they feel themselves ready to have a bath
?
chris
J. Stauffer
<<<Do you think it's ok to wait until they feel themselves ready to have a
bath
?>>>>
Yes, in almost all instances. I have 5 kids. 4 of them take baths because
they enjoy them. My son has a lot of tactile/anxiety issues and doesn't
enjoy baths at all. He doesn't self-regulate well in any situation....so I
eventually refuse to take him in closed places with me ( like the car) when
he gets stinky.
I rarely mention bathing to my other kids at all.
Julie S.
bath
?>>>>
Yes, in almost all instances. I have 5 kids. 4 of them take baths because
they enjoy them. My son has a lot of tactile/anxiety issues and doesn't
enjoy baths at all. He doesn't self-regulate well in any situation....so I
eventually refuse to take him in closed places with me ( like the car) when
he gets stinky.
I rarely mention bathing to my other kids at all.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Swift" <Chris@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
>
>
>>
>> Some kids will enjoy taking a bath, others won't. Some kids will enjoy
>> gardening, others won't. Some kids will enjoy reading, others won't.
>>
>> Julie S.
>
> Julie
>
> Do you think it's ok to wait until they feel themselves ready to have a
> bath
> ?
>
> chris
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/13/05 8:34:17 AM, Chris@... writes:
<< You didn't answer my point how do they get to enjoy reading ?>>
You asked me how I/parent would get a child to enjoy reading. I can't
possibly.
<<Are you saying it's purely down to how good a reader their parents are. >>
No. You said reading to them would help but some parents can't/don't. That
was your theory, not mine.
-=-Perhaps their parents didn't have much education and would like their
children to do better.-=-
They could send them to school. There are schools all over the place.
They could keep them home and do schoolish things to them.
They could learn to trust that learning can and will happen effortlessly if
the environment is stimulating and supportive and free and busy.
-=-You can either learn to read from example or you can get lessons.-=-
Two options? That's all?
You left out entirely they they can learn to read on their own.
-=-Give a toddler a book to read with no assistance, how long will it take
them
to read it.-=-
Give a toddler a book to read and lessons and example, and he STILL won't
read it. Read it to him, but don't expect that to be all he needs to learn to
read. And toddlers don't need to read anyway, and aren't ready to read.
Would example or lessons help a four month old baby walk?
Would example of lessons help him talk?
What he needs to learn to walk and to talk are the physical readiness, the
opportunity, and the encouragement.
Reading is the same way. Surrounded by words and people who are happy and
helpful and not shaming and worried and pressuring, reading is a desireable
thing for kids who live where reading is an everyday thing.
-=-You can either learn to read from example or you can get lessons.-=-
Those are not even nearly the only two options. I have three teenagers who
read and didn't "get lessons."
Did you look here at all?
http://sandradodd.com/reading
If the link doesn't work, make it work by having it begin with http and end
with reading and look at real people's real stories.
Sandra
<< You didn't answer my point how do they get to enjoy reading ?>>
You asked me how I/parent would get a child to enjoy reading. I can't
possibly.
<<Are you saying it's purely down to how good a reader their parents are. >>
No. You said reading to them would help but some parents can't/don't. That
was your theory, not mine.
-=-Perhaps their parents didn't have much education and would like their
children to do better.-=-
They could send them to school. There are schools all over the place.
They could keep them home and do schoolish things to them.
They could learn to trust that learning can and will happen effortlessly if
the environment is stimulating and supportive and free and busy.
-=-You can either learn to read from example or you can get lessons.-=-
Two options? That's all?
You left out entirely they they can learn to read on their own.
-=-Give a toddler a book to read with no assistance, how long will it take
them
to read it.-=-
Give a toddler a book to read and lessons and example, and he STILL won't
read it. Read it to him, but don't expect that to be all he needs to learn to
read. And toddlers don't need to read anyway, and aren't ready to read.
Would example or lessons help a four month old baby walk?
Would example of lessons help him talk?
What he needs to learn to walk and to talk are the physical readiness, the
opportunity, and the encouragement.
Reading is the same way. Surrounded by words and people who are happy and
helpful and not shaming and worried and pressuring, reading is a desireable
thing for kids who live where reading is an everyday thing.
-=-You can either learn to read from example or you can get lessons.-=-
Those are not even nearly the only two options. I have three teenagers who
read and didn't "get lessons."
Did you look here at all?
http://sandradodd.com/reading
If the link doesn't work, make it work by having it begin with http and end
with reading and look at real people's real stories.
Sandra
Chris Swift
Julie
I think that's great.
Someone who follows through on the consequences of their beliefs.
I wish I had the nerve.
chris
I think that's great.
Someone who follows through on the consequences of their beliefs.
I wish I had the nerve.
chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
> <<<Do you think it's ok to wait until they feel themselves ready to have a
> bath
> ?>>>>
>
> Yes, in almost all instances. I have 5 kids. 4 of them take baths
because
> they enjoy them. My son has a lot of tactile/anxiety issues and doesn't
> enjoy baths at all. He doesn't self-regulate well in any situation....so
I
> eventually refuse to take him in closed places with me ( like the car)
when
> he gets stinky.
>
> I rarely mention bathing to my other kids at all.
>
> Julie S.
Chris Swift
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
> What he needs to learn to walk and to talk are the physical readiness, the
> opportunity, and the encouragement.
>
> Reading is the same way. Surrounded by words and people who are happy and
> helpful and not shaming and worried and pressuring, reading is a
desireable
> thing for kids who live where reading is an everyday thing.
But you haven't answered my point, what about where reading is not an
everyday thing ?
Walking and talking are not at all comparable to reading.
I think it quite likely walking, even if stooped, could come about with no
assistance or example.
There is some evidence that we have some built in vocal language ability at
birth.
Left to themselves no one will ever learn to read.
However caring or loving the parents, however happy the children, without
the example of reading or being taught they will never learn.
chris
S.Waynforth
My two don't enjoy reading. They like the product of reading, not the
process. They like knowing what the characters are saying in Tales of
Symphonia (the gamecube game we're playing at the moment)or what the
latest Ranger Rick can tell them about otters or what Asterix and
Obelix are saying in the balloons above their heads. Occasionally
Simon (8) likes to read the noises that Obelix makes when he bashes
some Roman or Linnaea (5) likes to get on to Neopets and type in
series of letters and see if anyone has named a Neopet by that name,
but most of the time the reading is left to those who are more adept.
I love the process of reading. I love that without thinking about it,
without being aware of anything going on I am reading words. I can
remember when I first got glasses reading street signs and any sign
with such joy because I could, I still do that. It was interesting
living in Japan and being completely illiterate. It didn't hinder
memuch. It meant that if the menu wasn't in English I had to look at
the plastic food in the window (and on occasion take the waitress out
to point at what I wanted) in order to see if I wanted to eat there.
And that David (dh) had to get the receptionist who worked at the
University where he worked to write out the characters we needed to
look for on the bus we needed to take to get downtown and back home.
We were only there for a year and didn't feel any need or desire to
learn to read Japanese. We had friends who took classes and got quite
far at recognizing katakana in a few months. Reading Japanese, or at
least a bit of Japanese, would have opened up more doors to us, but I
didn't feel the need. Probably if we were going to stay there for
longer I would have made the effort. David's parents lived in Japan
for 3 years though and neither of them can read Japanese, so maybe I
wouldn't have invested in it anyhow. Nobody made it fun for me, but
more importantly I didn't want to study Japanese. I picked up a
fleeting facility to recognize the kanji specific to where we lived as
it made it easier to get home. I can't remember the kanji at all now.
I loved living in Kyoto though, even without the pleasure of reading
all of the street signs or store names or restaurant menus.
I have no doubt that some day Simon and Linnaea will read. Their
world is full of the written word and so much of what they both enjoy
is easier to do if you can read, but until they don't want me to read
for them I'll continue to, happily. I couldn't tell them how to read
anyhow, I haven't a clue how I do it.
Schuyler
process. They like knowing what the characters are saying in Tales of
Symphonia (the gamecube game we're playing at the moment)or what the
latest Ranger Rick can tell them about otters or what Asterix and
Obelix are saying in the balloons above their heads. Occasionally
Simon (8) likes to read the noises that Obelix makes when he bashes
some Roman or Linnaea (5) likes to get on to Neopets and type in
series of letters and see if anyone has named a Neopet by that name,
but most of the time the reading is left to those who are more adept.
I love the process of reading. I love that without thinking about it,
without being aware of anything going on I am reading words. I can
remember when I first got glasses reading street signs and any sign
with such joy because I could, I still do that. It was interesting
living in Japan and being completely illiterate. It didn't hinder
memuch. It meant that if the menu wasn't in English I had to look at
the plastic food in the window (and on occasion take the waitress out
to point at what I wanted) in order to see if I wanted to eat there.
And that David (dh) had to get the receptionist who worked at the
University where he worked to write out the characters we needed to
look for on the bus we needed to take to get downtown and back home.
We were only there for a year and didn't feel any need or desire to
learn to read Japanese. We had friends who took classes and got quite
far at recognizing katakana in a few months. Reading Japanese, or at
least a bit of Japanese, would have opened up more doors to us, but I
didn't feel the need. Probably if we were going to stay there for
longer I would have made the effort. David's parents lived in Japan
for 3 years though and neither of them can read Japanese, so maybe I
wouldn't have invested in it anyhow. Nobody made it fun for me, but
more importantly I didn't want to study Japanese. I picked up a
fleeting facility to recognize the kanji specific to where we lived as
it made it easier to get home. I can't remember the kanji at all now.
I loved living in Kyoto though, even without the pleasure of reading
all of the street signs or store names or restaurant menus.
I have no doubt that some day Simon and Linnaea will read. Their
world is full of the written word and so much of what they both enjoy
is easier to do if you can read, but until they don't want me to read
for them I'll continue to, happily. I couldn't tell them how to read
anyhow, I haven't a clue how I do it.
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], "Chris Swift" <Chris@c...> wrote:
>
> I agree with your sentiment but how do you get to the point where
they can
> enjoy it ?
>
> Reading for instance is not a natural activity.
>
> Reading a lot to children can get them into reading for themselves quite
> naturally but not all children respond and not all parents are good (or
> willing) book readers !
>
> Chris
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/13/2005 9:34:23 AM Central Standard Time,
Chris@... writes:
Give a toddler a book to read with no assistance, how long will it take them
to read it.
Answer, never.
~~~
That wouldn't be unschooling--but plenty of toddlers figure out how to read
without anyone teaching them.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris@... writes:
Give a toddler a book to read with no assistance, how long will it take them
to read it.
Answer, never.
~~~
That wouldn't be unschooling--but plenty of toddlers figure out how to read
without anyone teaching them.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
S.Waynforth
Children who have no example of reading don't live in a world with
reading, right? So, why would they read?
Schuyler
reading, right? So, why would they read?
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], "Chris Swift" <Chris@c...> wrote:
> Left to themselves no one will ever learn to read.
>
> However caring or loving the parents, however happy the children,
without
> the example of reading or being taught they will never learn.
>
> chris
Paula Sjogerman
on 6/13/05 10:27 AM, Chris Swift at Chris@... wrote:
lives, the world is full of print. It's really unavoidable.
Paula
> Left to themselves no one will ever learn to read.If by left to themselves you mean in a closet or a jungle. In most of our
lives, the world is full of print. It's really unavoidable.
Paula
Sylvia Toyama
You didn't answer my point how do they get to enjoy reading ?
***
When -- or even whether -- they come to enjoy reading depends on all kinds of things. IMO, the most basic is how they're 'wired.' Some people love to read and do so voraciously. Some people are wired for numbers, or what they hear, or tactile. Some people never become happy readers no matter what parents do to or for them to 'make it happen.' What is it about parents that we think we can make something happen for another person just because s/he is our child?
****
Are you saying it's purely down to how good a reader their parents are.
Perhaps their parents didn't have much education and would like their
children to do better.
*****
I don't recall seeing Sandra say that. I've known people in my life who are readers, born to parents who aren't so much readers. I've also seen non-readers born to readers.
******
You can either learn to read from example or you can get lessons.
Give a toddler a book to read with no assistance, how long will it take
them to read it.
Answer, never.
*******
That's crap! There are kids who read spontaneously. Some do it because they've seen other people reading. Some do it just because they see letters and words and have an innate need to figure out what it all means, or because it speaks to them as readers.
I began reading at 4, as did my dh -- in both cases, our parents were surprised to find we could read. The first time dh read something aloud, he was 4 and it was the newspaper upside-down across the breakfast table (his dad was reading and Gary read the folded over side). I have a friend who read at 2. My son Andy began reading at 8, because he wanted to know what the words on the TV screen meant during Pokemon cartoons. He would spell them out to me and I'd simply tell him what the word was -- before long, he'd figured out the code and began reading them out loud himself.
I'm not saying that no one ever needs help to learn to read. I am saying that the idea that without instruction no child would ever read is false.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***
When -- or even whether -- they come to enjoy reading depends on all kinds of things. IMO, the most basic is how they're 'wired.' Some people love to read and do so voraciously. Some people are wired for numbers, or what they hear, or tactile. Some people never become happy readers no matter what parents do to or for them to 'make it happen.' What is it about parents that we think we can make something happen for another person just because s/he is our child?
****
Are you saying it's purely down to how good a reader their parents are.
Perhaps their parents didn't have much education and would like their
children to do better.
*****
I don't recall seeing Sandra say that. I've known people in my life who are readers, born to parents who aren't so much readers. I've also seen non-readers born to readers.
******
You can either learn to read from example or you can get lessons.
Give a toddler a book to read with no assistance, how long will it take
them to read it.
Answer, never.
*******
That's crap! There are kids who read spontaneously. Some do it because they've seen other people reading. Some do it just because they see letters and words and have an innate need to figure out what it all means, or because it speaks to them as readers.
I began reading at 4, as did my dh -- in both cases, our parents were surprised to find we could read. The first time dh read something aloud, he was 4 and it was the newspaper upside-down across the breakfast table (his dad was reading and Gary read the folded over side). I have a friend who read at 2. My son Andy began reading at 8, because he wanted to know what the words on the TV screen meant during Pokemon cartoons. He would spell them out to me and I'd simply tell him what the word was -- before long, he'd figured out the code and began reading them out loud himself.
I'm not saying that no one ever needs help to learn to read. I am saying that the idea that without instruction no child would ever read is false.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Chris Swift
Well I seem to be on my own here.
Could anyone help me out by supplying some authorative evidence for
spontaneous reading ?
Chris Swift
Could anyone help me out by supplying some authorative evidence for
spontaneous reading ?
Chris Swift
Sylvia Toyama
Do you think it's ok to wait until they feel themselves ready to have a bath?
chris
****
I do! I have three boys (20, 9 & 4) and none has shown a desire to go unbathed until he's truly funky and unhealthy. I just toweled off my 4yo who, after wearing the same outfit since swimming Friday evening (some 65 hrs ago!), announced he'd like a bath. He spent 30 minutes in the bath, and tho he'd stated upon starting that he intended to put his dirty clothes back on, he asked me to bring him clean clothes.
I may occasionally suggest a bath or shower to someone, but whether he takes on is entirely up to him. I'm no longer surprised when they agree, because I've learned that really most people like to be clean and almost everyone enjoys a nice, relaxing bath -- or an invigorating shower.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris
****
I do! I have three boys (20, 9 & 4) and none has shown a desire to go unbathed until he's truly funky and unhealthy. I just toweled off my 4yo who, after wearing the same outfit since swimming Friday evening (some 65 hrs ago!), announced he'd like a bath. He spent 30 minutes in the bath, and tho he'd stated upon starting that he intended to put his dirty clothes back on, he asked me to bring him clean clothes.
I may occasionally suggest a bath or shower to someone, but whether he takes on is entirely up to him. I'm no longer surprised when they agree, because I've learned that really most people like to be clean and almost everyone enjoys a nice, relaxing bath -- or an invigorating shower.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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Dana Matt
--- Chris Swift <Chris@...> wrote:
but my son taught himself to read at about 3.5-4. I
was nursing him and reading a mystery book to myself
one day, and he asked me "Mom, what's 'decapitate'?"
"What? Where did you get that?" I asked him, and he
pointed to my page and read me a paragraph. He had
obviouly been storing away words and sounds for a long
time, but that was the first time I actually saw him
read.
Dana
Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
http://www.guadalupescoffee.com
__________________________________
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> Well I seem to be on my own here.I don't know what you would consider "authorative",
>
> Could anyone help me out by supplying some
> authorative evidence for
> spontaneous reading ?
>
but my son taught himself to read at about 3.5-4. I
was nursing him and reading a mystery book to myself
one day, and he asked me "Mom, what's 'decapitate'?"
"What? Where did you get that?" I asked him, and he
pointed to my page and read me a paragraph. He had
obviouly been storing away words and sounds for a long
time, but that was the first time I actually saw him
read.
Dana
Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
http://www.guadalupescoffee.com
__________________________________
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out!
http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html
Sylvia Toyama
Left to themselves no one will ever learn to read.
******
If this were true of humans as a species, there would be no written word. At some point in time, someone had thoughts or experiences he wanted to share with others who weren't with him at that moment in time (or he'd have just told them). That desire resulted in those words being written in some fashion. To close the loop, someone else had to figure out what those symbols meant, and reading was discovered/invented.
****
However caring or loving the parents, however happy the children, without the example of reading or being taught they will never learn.
chris
******
Are there really children alive today who NEVER see another person reading? Certainly not among unschoolers or homeschoolers.
Also, home isn't the only place in life with examples of how to do something new. I've learned and come to love many skills I had never witnessed anyone else do in real life, much less while growing up in my parents' home -- everything from macrame to breastfeeding my children.
Sylvia
__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
******
If this were true of humans as a species, there would be no written word. At some point in time, someone had thoughts or experiences he wanted to share with others who weren't with him at that moment in time (or he'd have just told them). That desire resulted in those words being written in some fashion. To close the loop, someone else had to figure out what those symbols meant, and reading was discovered/invented.
****
However caring or loving the parents, however happy the children, without the example of reading or being taught they will never learn.
chris
******
Are there really children alive today who NEVER see another person reading? Certainly not among unschoolers or homeschoolers.
Also, home isn't the only place in life with examples of how to do something new. I've learned and come to love many skills I had never witnessed anyone else do in real life, much less while growing up in my parents' home -- everything from macrame to breastfeeding my children.
Sylvia
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
Could anyone help me out by supplying some authorative evidence for
spontaneous reading ?
*****
By authoritative do you mean some study conducted by a scholarly individual? That would be like asking for studies from doctors indicating people don't need their services.
Even better than some evidence presented by an outside 'authority/expert' on the subject, are real-life stories shared by families who post here and in other unschooling forums. If you'd rather dismiss anything non-academic as merely anecdotal, then you really are on your own for any non-traditional path.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
spontaneous reading ?
*****
By authoritative do you mean some study conducted by a scholarly individual? That would be like asking for studies from doctors indicating people don't need their services.
Even better than some evidence presented by an outside 'authority/expert' on the subject, are real-life stories shared by families who post here and in other unschooling forums. If you'd rather dismiss anything non-academic as merely anecdotal, then you really are on your own for any non-traditional path.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<However caring or loving the parents, however happy the children, without
the example of reading or being taught they will never learn.>>>
This absolutely isn't true. My Zach (the stinky one <grin>) went to
kindergarten for 3 months. They shamed and stressed him because he wasn't
ready to read. I pulled him out but the damage was done.....Zach refused to
even let me read TO him for over 2 years.
Then he would occassionally let me read to him but he never watched along
with the words or anything. He played in the floor while I read. As far as
he was concerned, I could have been simply telling him a story that I had
made up.
Then a couple of years ago, Zach discovered Yu-Gi-Oh. He really needed to
learn to read to play the game....there is simply too much to remember. So
he did.
We didn't practice, he didn't have lessons, he would occassionally ask what
a word was but that was it. He taught himself.
Julie S.
the example of reading or being taught they will never learn.>>>
This absolutely isn't true. My Zach (the stinky one <grin>) went to
kindergarten for 3 months. They shamed and stressed him because he wasn't
ready to read. I pulled him out but the damage was done.....Zach refused to
even let me read TO him for over 2 years.
Then he would occassionally let me read to him but he never watched along
with the words or anything. He played in the floor while I read. As far as
he was concerned, I could have been simply telling him a story that I had
made up.
Then a couple of years ago, Zach discovered Yu-Gi-Oh. He really needed to
learn to read to play the game....there is simply too much to remember. So
he did.
We didn't practice, he didn't have lessons, he would occassionally ask what
a word was but that was it. He taught himself.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Swift" <Chris@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <SandraDodd@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 3:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Books, Reading and Awards
>
>
>> What he needs to learn to walk and to talk are the physical readiness,
>> the
>> opportunity, and the encouragement.
>>
>> Reading is the same way. Surrounded by words and people who are happy
>> and
>> helpful and not shaming and worried and pressuring, reading is a
> desireable
>> thing for kids who live where reading is an everyday thing.
>
> But you haven't answered my point, what about where reading is not an
> everyday thing ?
>
> Walking and talking are not at all comparable to reading.
>
> I think it quite likely walking, even if stooped, could come about with no
> assistance or example.
>
> There is some evidence that we have some built in vocal language ability
> at
> birth.
>
> Left to themselves no one will ever learn to read.
>
> However caring or loving the parents, however happy the children, without
> the example of reading or being taught they will never learn.
>
> chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Pam Sorooshian
On Jun 13, 2005, at 9:48 AM, Chris Swift wrote:
How about the evidence of our own experience? Not authoritative enough?
First-hand knowledge?
That's funny. I'd forgotten that there were people who hadn't seen it
happen many times over. Many people here have kids who learned to read
without instruction. I have three of them. One of them read at 3 years
old (almost 4) and certainly had NO instruction - since nobody in the
family even knew she COULD read until a neighbor mentioned it to us.
One read at 8 and had no instruction because I had no doubt she'd read
when she was ready - she is a very physically active kind of kid who
was very busy developing other aspects of her mind and body. The other
read at 4 1/2 or so and without any formal instruction - just given the
opportunities of a print-rich environment. I personally know kids who
have read at 3 and kids who have read at 12 - none with formal
instruction.
I think you need to go have a look at the evidence that has been
collected on Sandra's site.
-pam
>Do you mean evidence that kids can learn to read without instruction?
> Could anyone help me out by supplying some authorative evidence for
> spontaneous reading ?
How about the evidence of our own experience? Not authoritative enough?
First-hand knowledge?
That's funny. I'd forgotten that there were people who hadn't seen it
happen many times over. Many people here have kids who learned to read
without instruction. I have three of them. One of them read at 3 years
old (almost 4) and certainly had NO instruction - since nobody in the
family even knew she COULD read until a neighbor mentioned it to us.
One read at 8 and had no instruction because I had no doubt she'd read
when she was ready - she is a very physically active kind of kid who
was very busy developing other aspects of her mind and body. The other
read at 4 1/2 or so and without any formal instruction - just given the
opportunities of a print-rich environment. I personally know kids who
have read at 3 and kids who have read at 12 - none with formal
instruction.
I think you need to go have a look at the evidence that has been
collected on Sandra's site.
-pam
Elizabeth Hill
**I agree with your sentiment but how do you get to the point where they can
enjoy it ? **
All I can add here that's concretely constructive is to say "really pay attention to what they enjoy".
And I'll add one of my favorite anecdotes that when my son was first reading independently, he would bring his book and lean up against me on the couch, so that we were cuddled up in the same way that we were when I read TO him. I don't know if he assumed that you HAD to sit that way to read, or if he just found it comfortable or comforting to be cuddled up. (I'll ask him.)
Goals and pressure take the fun out of reading. That's why we're spending so much time and so many sentences warning you away from that approach. (We repeat it a lot to make sure that even people who are skimming, or only reading once a week, still get the point.) (It's not personal.)
My son is really auditory. He really likes to hear a book, not look at it. I still read to him a lot, much more than he reads to himself, even though he is eleven. (I think my Hagrid-voice is getting really good.) And believe me, he picks the books not me. I actually know a tremendous amount about children's books, and my friends kids like my recommendations, but HE is the one who knows the most about what he likes.
Betsy
enjoy it ? **
All I can add here that's concretely constructive is to say "really pay attention to what they enjoy".
And I'll add one of my favorite anecdotes that when my son was first reading independently, he would bring his book and lean up against me on the couch, so that we were cuddled up in the same way that we were when I read TO him. I don't know if he assumed that you HAD to sit that way to read, or if he just found it comfortable or comforting to be cuddled up. (I'll ask him.)
Goals and pressure take the fun out of reading. That's why we're spending so much time and so many sentences warning you away from that approach. (We repeat it a lot to make sure that even people who are skimming, or only reading once a week, still get the point.) (It's not personal.)
My son is really auditory. He really likes to hear a book, not look at it. I still read to him a lot, much more than he reads to himself, even though he is eleven. (I think my Hagrid-voice is getting really good.) And believe me, he picks the books not me. I actually know a tremendous amount about children's books, and my friends kids like my recommendations, but HE is the one who knows the most about what he likes.
Betsy