video games and violence
[email protected]
-=-I'm still not sold on the argument about the violence factor being
negligible, but I'm exploring all that.-=-
Where are you doing your exploring?
Guessing you've already followed links here:
_http://sandradodd.com/games/page_ (http://sandradodd.com/games/page)
What might help a lot is going to a gaming shop, hanging out casual-like,
looking at the model paints or the used DVDs or the magazines, and listening and
observing the behavior of the older boys. To make it useful, though, you
need to think of some other places where teens hang out and go there and look
at them there too. See who seems peaceful and thoughtful and courteous.
If you're going to the Live and Learn conference, find Kirby or Marty, and
see what you think. YEARS of video game playing. Try to piss them off, if
you want to, and see if they get violent. Hit them and see if they hit back.
I won't warn them, because that would mar the science of your exploration.
Just two nights ago, Marty came in and said the online games are becoming
fashion shows, and that Kirby and his clan were in there designing matching
pirate outfits for themselves on World of Warcraft. One of Holly's favorites
of the past few months is a group game called Karaoke Revolution. I've
played. The first thing you do is name your character, choose what you'll look
like, and pick some clothes. One of the things you can gain by playing well is
more choices of clothes.
This probably developed out of games where you could choose which character
you wanted to be, such as Mario 2, where you could be Mario or Luigi or the
Princess or Yoshi (I think). Star Wars, Knights of the Old Republic, let you
choose your persona. And Kirby just said "All of these games do," and
gestured in such a way as I think he meant Halo 2, World of Warcraft, Morrowind.
In my experience with people who have grown up to be violent, they were
either tormented physically or verbally, they were controlled and limited, they
were made to feel small, they were shamed, punished and spanked. Unless
violence came along sometime after video games, it is ludicrous to blame violence
on that, particularly when schools have never been so controlling, limiting,
small-making and punishing of older kids before now. When schools were new,
it was not at all unusual for people to go for a couple or three years and
drop out after they learned to read and learned some math. Three of my four
grandparents dropped out in what would now be considered elementary school.
One finished high school. Both my parents dropped out in what would be
considered high school. By then (the 40's) people had to be pregnant to get out of
school earlier than 15 or so, and some got pregnant just to get the heck out
of there, I hear. My sister dropped out.
None of those people would nowadays be legally allowed to stop going to
school. They would keep them until they were 18. Home lives are adjusted to
match, and 17 and 18 year old boys are treated like little children. When that
naturally and understandably makes kids violent, the schools and the parents
love to blame TV, movies and video games.
It's really okay to think, to look around and SEE directly without anyone
else's interpretation what IS oppressive and what is not. You don't need to
shop for an expert. You can become a direct observer of your son and of the
behaviors around you. If something seems like bullshit, look at it critically
and curiously and turn it around and look at the back, and at its history,
and at the motivation of its maker. Don't reject it whole and go to the next
expert.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
negligible, but I'm exploring all that.-=-
Where are you doing your exploring?
Guessing you've already followed links here:
_http://sandradodd.com/games/page_ (http://sandradodd.com/games/page)
What might help a lot is going to a gaming shop, hanging out casual-like,
looking at the model paints or the used DVDs or the magazines, and listening and
observing the behavior of the older boys. To make it useful, though, you
need to think of some other places where teens hang out and go there and look
at them there too. See who seems peaceful and thoughtful and courteous.
If you're going to the Live and Learn conference, find Kirby or Marty, and
see what you think. YEARS of video game playing. Try to piss them off, if
you want to, and see if they get violent. Hit them and see if they hit back.
I won't warn them, because that would mar the science of your exploration.
Just two nights ago, Marty came in and said the online games are becoming
fashion shows, and that Kirby and his clan were in there designing matching
pirate outfits for themselves on World of Warcraft. One of Holly's favorites
of the past few months is a group game called Karaoke Revolution. I've
played. The first thing you do is name your character, choose what you'll look
like, and pick some clothes. One of the things you can gain by playing well is
more choices of clothes.
This probably developed out of games where you could choose which character
you wanted to be, such as Mario 2, where you could be Mario or Luigi or the
Princess or Yoshi (I think). Star Wars, Knights of the Old Republic, let you
choose your persona. And Kirby just said "All of these games do," and
gestured in such a way as I think he meant Halo 2, World of Warcraft, Morrowind.
In my experience with people who have grown up to be violent, they were
either tormented physically or verbally, they were controlled and limited, they
were made to feel small, they were shamed, punished and spanked. Unless
violence came along sometime after video games, it is ludicrous to blame violence
on that, particularly when schools have never been so controlling, limiting,
small-making and punishing of older kids before now. When schools were new,
it was not at all unusual for people to go for a couple or three years and
drop out after they learned to read and learned some math. Three of my four
grandparents dropped out in what would now be considered elementary school.
One finished high school. Both my parents dropped out in what would be
considered high school. By then (the 40's) people had to be pregnant to get out of
school earlier than 15 or so, and some got pregnant just to get the heck out
of there, I hear. My sister dropped out.
None of those people would nowadays be legally allowed to stop going to
school. They would keep them until they were 18. Home lives are adjusted to
match, and 17 and 18 year old boys are treated like little children. When that
naturally and understandably makes kids violent, the schools and the parents
love to blame TV, movies and video games.
It's really okay to think, to look around and SEE directly without anyone
else's interpretation what IS oppressive and what is not. You don't need to
shop for an expert. You can become a direct observer of your son and of the
behaviors around you. If something seems like bullshit, look at it critically
and curiously and turn it around and look at the back, and at its history,
and at the motivation of its maker. Don't reject it whole and go to the next
expert.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@...
If you're going to the Live and Learn conference, find Kirby or
Marty, and
see what you think. YEARS of video game playing. Try to piss them
off, if
you want to, and see if they get violent. Hit them and see if they
hit back.
-=-=-=-
Don't. Please.
You can trust her.
Really.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: SandraDodd@...
If you're going to the Live and Learn conference, find Kirby or
Marty, and
see what you think. YEARS of video game playing. Try to piss them
off, if
you want to, and see if they get violent. Hit them and see if they
hit back.
-=-=-=-
Don't. Please.
You can trust her.
Really.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/7/2005 3:50:11 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
Don't. Please.
You can trust her.
-----------------
That's not the point.
I don't want people to take my word for anything, I want them to find ways
to know for themselves what is real and useful and where unschooling can take
them.
If anyone depends on another person's word as a source, she is susceptible
to being duped or to deciding at some point that her chosen leader isn't
flawless, and might reject ALL of what that person says.
Finding out for oneself is learning.
Trusting blindly is ignorance.
Learning who to trust, for real reasons, and knowing that trust isn't
enough: that's commendable.
Anyway, I learned from personal experience that it's no longer possible to
hit Kirby. Four or five years ago I was really angry at something he had said
about something obnoxious he had done (I don't remember what) and I tried to
slap him. He blocked it gently and calmly. That was however-many-years ago
in his karate training. Now he could probably dodge it without physical
contact. I no longer have the urge to try anyway. We both got older. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
Don't. Please.
You can trust her.
-----------------
That's not the point.
I don't want people to take my word for anything, I want them to find ways
to know for themselves what is real and useful and where unschooling can take
them.
If anyone depends on another person's word as a source, she is susceptible
to being duped or to deciding at some point that her chosen leader isn't
flawless, and might reject ALL of what that person says.
Finding out for oneself is learning.
Trusting blindly is ignorance.
Learning who to trust, for real reasons, and knowing that trust isn't
enough: that's commendable.
Anyway, I learned from personal experience that it's no longer possible to
hit Kirby. Four or five years ago I was really angry at something he had said
about something obnoxious he had done (I don't remember what) and I tried to
slap him. He blocked it gently and calmly. That was however-many-years ago
in his karate training. Now he could probably dodge it without physical
contact. I no longer have the urge to try anyway. We both got older. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
> If you're going to the Live and Learn conference, find Kirby orSeamus would likely hit back, and has bouts of "violence" (losing
>Marty, and see what you think. YEARS of video game playing.
>Try to piss them off, if you want to, and see if they get
>violent. Hit them and see if they hit back.
his temper), but he's been like that since toddlerhood, way before
he started playing videogames or watching much on tv but Blue's
Clues. Other than the occasional bouts of "losing it" he's
rarely "violent"...in fact the older he's gotten, the better his
control is, and yet he plays more video games than when he was
littler. I wouldnt really define his behavior as "violence" though
so much as a biological surge of adrenaline that he is learning to
control/manage.
I do think playing videogames or computer games does bring out alot
of frustration,in a way that ,say, playing legos does not, and he's
the type of kid to want to throw the game down or pitch it across
the room, become incoherent and sob about how nothing ever goes
right in his life and he never wants to play that stupid game again.
What usually helps in these situations is reminding him how he
*always* gets past that difficult point, and then helping him look
up cheats and walkthroughs on the internet.
> Just two nights ago, Marty came in and said the online games areSeamus is into the online game Everquest right now (and we've also
>becoming fashion shows, and that Kirby and his clan were in there
>designing matching pirate outfits for themselves on World of
>Warcraft.
kept busy playing the PS version Champions of Norath...much fun, and
easier for me than Everquest, i can't think that fast, nor battle a
huge spider while chatting with someone and tallying up how much
platinum i need to buy that cool sword...but i digress....)Even
though the game involves "violence" (killing creatures and such)he
seems way more interested in making his armor look super cool or
upgrading his weapons. He's totally into getting "stuff" (potions,
clothes, scrolls, whatever), but discovered that perhaps instead of
spending all his "money" on amassing large amounts of stuff, he
should put it in the "bank" and save it for something he truly
wants, and that if he leaves it where he can easily spend it, he
usually will just spend spend spend. I told him that principle can
apply to "real" life as well.
I think its also important to think not in terms of "do videogames
make kids violent?" but rather will videogames cause your specific
child to be more violent? It seems that a child raised with respect,
in a fun, caring unschooling home would be way more impacted by that
environment than whatever virtual game they may play.
I also think there is alot of hysteria out there...i was watching
some news program in which a man was being interviewed
about "keeping our kids safe from videogames" or something, and his
example of the evils of videogames was some porn-type game that you
can get online that i've never heard of. Thats not what kids are
playing. Its like saying kids shouldnt read magazines because
Hustler is really bad for them.
Katherine
Nancy Wooton
On Jun 7, 2005, at 2:17 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
midshipman. He was a commander by 20.
Nancy, who just loves trivia <g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> one of those people would nowadays be legally allowed to stop going toAdmiral Lord Nelson was *12* when he started his naval career as a
> school. They would keep them until they were 18. Home lives are
> adjusted to
> match, and 17 and 18 year old boys are treated like little
> children.
midshipman. He was a commander by 20.
Nancy, who just loves trivia <g>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**Unless violence came along sometime after video games, it is ludicrous
to blame violence on that...**
Violence clearly goes all the way back in human history, and even
further in animal history ("nature red in tooth and claw...")
I just wanted to say "Yeah, have you SEEN Titus Andronicus." That Wm.
Shakespeare is degrading today's youth! (Yesterday's youth, I suppose.)
Betsy
**You don't need to shop for an expert. You can become a direct observer
of your son and of the behaviors around you.**
I just saw the Certificate of Empowerment on HSC's (California) list.
This looks like a good time to post it here.
to blame violence on that...**
Violence clearly goes all the way back in human history, and even
further in animal history ("nature red in tooth and claw...")
I just wanted to say "Yeah, have you SEEN Titus Andronicus." That Wm.
Shakespeare is degrading today's youth! (Yesterday's youth, I suppose.)
Betsy
**You don't need to shop for an expert. You can become a direct observer
of your son and of the behaviors around you.**
I just saw the Certificate of Empowerment on HSC's (California) list.
This looks like a good time to post it here.
[email protected]
-=-What usually helps in these situations is reminding him how he
*always* gets past that difficult point, and then helping him look
up cheats and walkthroughs on the internet.-=-
I flipped the quotes backwards.
YES, helping kids find a way to do things is central to being a good parent,
I think, unschooling or not. Drives me crazy when parents pat themselves on
their lazy heads for "letting the kids figure it out on their own."
-=-I do think playing videogames or computer games does bring out alot
of frustration,in a way that ,say, playing legos does not, and he's
the type of kid to want to throw the game down or pitch it across
the room, become incoherent and sob about how nothing ever goes
right in his life and he never wants to play that stupid game again. -=-
So school wouldn't be better for him, and forbidding games probably wouldn't
be better for him.
It seems to me WAY more useful for him to learn to control frustration at
home with a game than to be channeled away from frustration so that he might get
his first experience in a bar or at a bowling alley.
Some people were never in fights at school, but for many people it's
considered just a regular part of being at school, that people will get in fights.
Asking them, "So, are there many fights where you work?" makes them look at
you like you're stupid, but the stupidity is sticking kids in a
kid-prison-farm situation far from adults who really care about their feelings.
So. Video games cause that? In a student body of 300ish kids when I was
teaching Jr. High, we had one fight a week, usually, but three if it was going
to snow. Weird. Video games weren't even invented, except for Pong.
At the gaming store where Kirby worked for years, nary a fight.
In his own life/room, a few yelling matches about people's games getting
deleted accidentally by another kid, a couple of broken controllers years back,
much parental peacemaking instead of punishment, advice on keeping tempers
(reasons to in the realm of morality, law, finances, peace and personal
satisfaction). No fights school-style. No sneakiness or dishonesty.
Games are scapegoated for too much by too many, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*always* gets past that difficult point, and then helping him look
up cheats and walkthroughs on the internet.-=-
I flipped the quotes backwards.
YES, helping kids find a way to do things is central to being a good parent,
I think, unschooling or not. Drives me crazy when parents pat themselves on
their lazy heads for "letting the kids figure it out on their own."
-=-I do think playing videogames or computer games does bring out alot
of frustration,in a way that ,say, playing legos does not, and he's
the type of kid to want to throw the game down or pitch it across
the room, become incoherent and sob about how nothing ever goes
right in his life and he never wants to play that stupid game again. -=-
So school wouldn't be better for him, and forbidding games probably wouldn't
be better for him.
It seems to me WAY more useful for him to learn to control frustration at
home with a game than to be channeled away from frustration so that he might get
his first experience in a bar or at a bowling alley.
Some people were never in fights at school, but for many people it's
considered just a regular part of being at school, that people will get in fights.
Asking them, "So, are there many fights where you work?" makes them look at
you like you're stupid, but the stupidity is sticking kids in a
kid-prison-farm situation far from adults who really care about their feelings.
So. Video games cause that? In a student body of 300ish kids when I was
teaching Jr. High, we had one fight a week, usually, but three if it was going
to snow. Weird. Video games weren't even invented, except for Pong.
At the gaming store where Kirby worked for years, nary a fight.
In his own life/room, a few yelling matches about people's games getting
deleted accidentally by another kid, a couple of broken controllers years back,
much parental peacemaking instead of punishment, advice on keeping tempers
(reasons to in the realm of morality, law, finances, peace and personal
satisfaction). No fights school-style. No sneakiness or dishonesty.
Games are scapegoated for too much by too many, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/8/2005 10:28:17 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
**You don't need to shop for an expert. You can become a direct observer
of your son and of the behaviors around you.**
I just saw the Certificate of Empowerment on HSC's (California) list.
This looks like a good time to post it here.
_http://sandradodd.com/empowerment_ (http://sandradodd.com/empowerment)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
**You don't need to shop for an expert. You can become a direct observer
of your son and of the behaviors around you.**
I just saw the Certificate of Empowerment on HSC's (California) list.
This looks like a good time to post it here.
_http://sandradodd.com/empowerment_ (http://sandradodd.com/empowerment)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
> I do think playing videogames or computer games does bring out alotNOT for my kids. Lego and k'nex --- both were unbearably frustrating.
> of frustration,in a way that ,say, playing legos does not,
They had IMAGES in their heads of what they wanted to build - but never
could make those things. And the little pieces hurt their fingers. And
the structures always seemed to fly apart at some point. And on and on.
Video games have their frustrations, too. So does ANYTHING that takes
effort.
And -- by the way - you should had heard Rosie's frustration the other
day. She's reading Eragon - it is a LENGTHY book. Several times the
book has gotten closed without her place being marked. So - maybe we
should limit the length of books she is allowed to read, because she
really does so "over" react when she loses her place - it is such a
terrible source of frustration for her! <BEG>
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On Jun 7, 2005, at 7:02 PM, queenjane555 wrote:
spend a LOT of time sitting around with other moms - not homeschooling
moms, much less unschooling moms.
So - I get to hear a LOT of this kind of stuff. I just look at them. A
bit blankly. If pressed, I just say, "Do you think Angel would be
interested in that?" Fill in their kid's actual name - I mean - at
least get them thinking about their OWN child as opposed to just
following some general guidelines meant to apply to everybody.
Someone (a teen) organized a little holiday party for a bunch of
homeschooled teens - mostly unschooling, not all, but all SUPER nice
kind of geeky extremely wholesome <G> kids. She just followed sort of
a "template" for those who organize teen events - and included in her
invitation: "No drugs, alcohol, or weapons." She'd probably read
somewhere that that's what you should say. Or she'd gotten an
invitation from somewhere else that said that. The kids thought it was
very very funny. First - the idea that they'd be doing drugs or
drinking was odd to them -- but the funny part was the "no weapons" -
the party was in a karate studio and there are weapons hanging all OVER
the place in there. Many of the kids study at that studio and use those
weapons all the time!
-pam
> I also think there is alot of hysteria out there...i was watchingI am a soccer mom and a theater mom <G>. What that means is that I
> some news program in which a man was being interviewed
> about "keeping our kids safe from videogames" or something, and his
> example of the evils of videogames was some porn-type game that you
> can get online that i've never heard of. Thats not what kids are
> playing. Its like saying kids shouldnt read magazines because
> Hustler is really bad for them.
spend a LOT of time sitting around with other moms - not homeschooling
moms, much less unschooling moms.
So - I get to hear a LOT of this kind of stuff. I just look at them. A
bit blankly. If pressed, I just say, "Do you think Angel would be
interested in that?" Fill in their kid's actual name - I mean - at
least get them thinking about their OWN child as opposed to just
following some general guidelines meant to apply to everybody.
Someone (a teen) organized a little holiday party for a bunch of
homeschooled teens - mostly unschooling, not all, but all SUPER nice
kind of geeky extremely wholesome <G> kids. She just followed sort of
a "template" for those who organize teen events - and included in her
invitation: "No drugs, alcohol, or weapons." She'd probably read
somewhere that that's what you should say. Or she'd gotten an
invitation from somewhere else that said that. The kids thought it was
very very funny. First - the idea that they'd be doing drugs or
drinking was odd to them -- but the funny part was the "no weapons" -
the party was in a karate studio and there are weapons hanging all OVER
the place in there. Many of the kids study at that studio and use those
weapons all the time!
-pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/8/2005 12:44:53 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
Several times the
book has gotten closed without her place being marked. So - maybe we
should limit the length of books she is allowed to read, because she
really does so "over" react when she loses her place - it is such a
terrible source of frustration for her! <BEG>
===========
You could require her to read to the end of a chapter, or lose her reading
privileges.
You could take the book away from her for a week if she whimpers or cries
about losing her place.
But limiting her to very small books she can read in one sitting seems to
solve the frustration problem in the traditional fashion. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
Several times the
book has gotten closed without her place being marked. So - maybe we
should limit the length of books she is allowed to read, because she
really does so "over" react when she loses her place - it is such a
terrible source of frustration for her! <BEG>
===========
You could require her to read to the end of a chapter, or lose her reading
privileges.
You could take the book away from her for a week if she whimpers or cries
about losing her place.
But limiting her to very small books she can read in one sitting seems to
solve the frustration problem in the traditional fashion. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barbara Mullins
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
comfortable with computer games as well, although he has just this
week - on his 3rd try - been able to erect a small lego structure
using the actual small legos. My ds is like dh in that he has large
fingers that arn't good for really small things without a lot of
work. Although he will get frustrated at either when things aren't
going as planned.
I think I am starting to see his "plan" emerging though - if he
gets too frustrated then he quits, then later he either comes back &
trys it again (IF it is important to him otherwise he may have just
quit it for good -for now) and sometimes he will even get frustrated
again, sometimes he will ask for help (occasionally I will ask him
if he wants help as well, but most of the time he gives me a brick
wall and I am becoming confident in his ability to ask me for what
he needs as he becomes older as well, but I also like for him to
just know that I'm available for him.) Anyhow if it is important to
him (I should probably add "at the time" as well because sometimes
he will quit something for months or years before trying again) he
will work at it until he gets it, even if that means quiting several
times.
When he was younger I got upset at him when he quit and he quit
a LOT (in my opinion then) like baseball, soccar, gymnastics,
swimming lessons, etc. But now I'm pretty happy that I did listen to
him and let him quit, although I think I could have even been more
accepting of it, as I am learning to be now that I see his "plan". I
am so happy to have figured that out! I think children handle
frustration differently but if we follow their lead then we can
learn how we can be more helpful to them. Once again my ds is
teaching me stuff!
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>alot
> > I do think playing videogames or computer games does bring out
> > of frustration,in a way that ,say, playing legos does not,frustrating.
>
> NOT for my kids. Lego and k'nex --- both were unbearably
> They had IMAGES in their heads of what they wanted to build - butnever
> could make those things. And the little pieces hurt their fingers.And
> the structures always seemed to fly apart at some point. And onand on.
> Video games have their frustrations, too. So does ANYTHING thattakes
> effort.You beat me to posting it Pam! My 7 yo ds is much more
>
comfortable with computer games as well, although he has just this
week - on his 3rd try - been able to erect a small lego structure
using the actual small legos. My ds is like dh in that he has large
fingers that arn't good for really small things without a lot of
work. Although he will get frustrated at either when things aren't
going as planned.
I think I am starting to see his "plan" emerging though - if he
gets too frustrated then he quits, then later he either comes back &
trys it again (IF it is important to him otherwise he may have just
quit it for good -for now) and sometimes he will even get frustrated
again, sometimes he will ask for help (occasionally I will ask him
if he wants help as well, but most of the time he gives me a brick
wall and I am becoming confident in his ability to ask me for what
he needs as he becomes older as well, but I also like for him to
just know that I'm available for him.) Anyhow if it is important to
him (I should probably add "at the time" as well because sometimes
he will quit something for months or years before trying again) he
will work at it until he gets it, even if that means quiting several
times.
When he was younger I got upset at him when he quit and he quit
a LOT (in my opinion then) like baseball, soccar, gymnastics,
swimming lessons, etc. But now I'm pretty happy that I did listen to
him and let him quit, although I think I could have even been more
accepting of it, as I am learning to be now that I see his "plan". I
am so happy to have figured that out! I think children handle
frustration differently but if we follow their lead then we can
learn how we can be more helpful to them. Once again my ds is
teaching me stuff!