Re: [AlwaysLearning] giving grades
Diane Bentzen
I also think this is funny--also my pet peeve of
parents not letting their kids "read ahead." If you're
not going to read the whole book you might as well be
in school.
My kids recently decided they needed grades--only A
and F, though. So every time they do something on a
piece of paper (not just workbooky stuff, though,
drawings or whatever), I have to give them an A or an
F. They saw the kid on the cartoon get an F and they
wanted to try it.
:-) Diane
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parents not letting their kids "read ahead." If you're
not going to read the whole book you might as well be
in school.
My kids recently decided they needed grades--only A
and F, though. So every time they do something on a
piece of paper (not just workbooky stuff, though,
drawings or whatever), I have to give them an A or an
F. They saw the kid on the cartoon get an F and they
wanted to try it.
:-) Diane
> I keep running into people who give their kids__________________________________
> grades. ???!!!! I kind
> of don't see the point of homeschooling if you are
> just going to give grades and homework.
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Gold Standard
>>So every time they do something on aNot related to your grading situation Diane, but that's something I always
>>piece of paper (not just workbooky stuff, though,
>>drawings or whatever), I have to give them an A or an
>>F. They saw the kid on the cartoon get an F and they
>>wanted to try it.<<
wondered about...how teachers can grade art. I mean, is there a right and
wrong to art? And isn't art as subjective as anything could be? How do they
do that? Why do they do that? Sheesh...
Jacki
catherine aceto
When googling for art projects to do with my daughter, I sometimes come across art projects prepared for teachers, and they usually have a "grading rubric" or checklists of things that the project is supposed to teach adn the student must demonstrate in her picture. Ridiculous!
The concept of grading was the very first thing that made me question the enterprise of "school." My view starting in about the 10th grade was that either the stuff is important (and therefore everyone should demonstrate mastery) or it isn't that important (and so why are you learning it). I haven't seen any reason to change my opinion on that. Now I have lots of other reasons to think that grades are wrong - but even for people who buy into the logic of the school "system," I remain mystified as to why thinks that it is sensible to set up a system where children can get a C or D in a subject and then move right on to the next one subject.
-Cat
From: Gold Standard
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] giving grades
wondered about...how teachers can grade art. I mean, is there a right and
wrong to art? And isn't art as subjective as anything could be? How do they
do that? Why do they do that? Sheesh...
Jacki
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The concept of grading was the very first thing that made me question the enterprise of "school." My view starting in about the 10th grade was that either the stuff is important (and therefore everyone should demonstrate mastery) or it isn't that important (and so why are you learning it). I haven't seen any reason to change my opinion on that. Now I have lots of other reasons to think that grades are wrong - but even for people who buy into the logic of the school "system," I remain mystified as to why thinks that it is sensible to set up a system where children can get a C or D in a subject and then move right on to the next one subject.
-Cat
From: Gold Standard
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] giving grades
>>So every time they do something on aNot related to your grading situation Diane, but that's something I always
>>piece of paper (not just workbooky stuff, though,
>>drawings or whatever), I have to give them an A or an
>>F. They saw the kid on the cartoon get an F and they
>>wanted to try it.<<
wondered about...how teachers can grade art. I mean, is there a right and
wrong to art? And isn't art as subjective as anything could be? How do they
do that? Why do they do that? Sheesh...
Jacki
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/2005 9:09:05 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
jacki@... writes:
how teachers can grade art. I mean, is there a right and
wrong to art? And isn't art as subjective as anything could be? How do they
do that? Why do they do that?
-------------------
If there's a certain topic being studied, such as shading or perspective,
they can grade that.
If they know a student's ability, they can judge something as supurb or
half-assed for that student.
Not recommending homeschoolers do it, just explaining how art teachers need
to think sometimes.
-=->>So every time they do something on a
You could refuse and explain why.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jacki@... writes:
how teachers can grade art. I mean, is there a right and
wrong to art? And isn't art as subjective as anything could be? How do they
do that? Why do they do that?
-------------------
If there's a certain topic being studied, such as shading or perspective,
they can grade that.
If they know a student's ability, they can judge something as supurb or
half-assed for that student.
Not recommending homeschoolers do it, just explaining how art teachers need
to think sometimes.
-=->>So every time they do something on a
>>piece of paper (not just workbooky stuff, though,You don't "have to."
>>drawings or whatever), I have to give them an A or an
>>F. -=-
You could refuse and explain why.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/3/2005 10:32:01 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
aceto3@... writes:
When googling for art projects to do with my daughter, I sometimes come
across art projects prepared for teachers, and they usually have a "grading
rubric" or checklists of things that the project is supposed to teach adn the
student must demonstrate in her picture. Ridiculous!
-------------
It's ridiculous literally, meaning you can ridicule it, but if you took a
position teaching art for money, you would be expected to show that people had
improved or gained knowledge, and when there's an instructor who's expected to
gauge others' progress, then that gauge is feedback in the judgment of the
instructor.
People don't get paid (and students don't pay) for a person to say
"whatever" all the time or "cool!" whether it's crap or golden.
-=-My view starting in about the 10th grade was that either the stuff is
important (and therefore everyone should demonstrate mastery) or it isn't that
important (and so why are you learning it). I haven't seen any reason to
change my opinion on that. -=-
One opinion can't fit all, in such cases, though. What's important to one
person might be exactly everything school teaches (because the person's
intelligences are mathematical and verbal, and the person's personality is
conservative and conforming). Someone whose talents are all musical and artsy can
go crazy at school, but the opinion that art and music are vitally important
will make no sense to a fullblown athlete without many other "intelligences"
(Gardner-style).
There are still reasons to change your opinion. You might end up with grown
child who becomes a professor or teacher and who will then be required to
compare students and rank them. Or an orchestra conductor who has to decide
who's first chair. Or a lead engineer who has to decide who's in charge of a
project. Or the manager of a restaurant who has to decide who to hire as a
waiter.
-=- I remain mystified as to why thinks that it is sensible to set up a
system where children can get a C or D in a subject and then move right on to the
next one subject.
=-
The divisions are arbitrary, and it seems the most unfair to the A students,
that D students move right on. But even in the absence of grades, the
frustration and unfairness remain. Every year that teachers get raises, the
dimwitted ones make as much more just for having survived another year as the
most creative and concerned teachers do. And the best teachers will spend some
of that salary on stuff for the classroom, or on their own professional
improvement, making their net personal pay smaller than the teachers who wouldn't
buy a poster for the classroom or a book on how children learn to save their
lives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aceto3@... writes:
When googling for art projects to do with my daughter, I sometimes come
across art projects prepared for teachers, and they usually have a "grading
rubric" or checklists of things that the project is supposed to teach adn the
student must demonstrate in her picture. Ridiculous!
-------------
It's ridiculous literally, meaning you can ridicule it, but if you took a
position teaching art for money, you would be expected to show that people had
improved or gained knowledge, and when there's an instructor who's expected to
gauge others' progress, then that gauge is feedback in the judgment of the
instructor.
People don't get paid (and students don't pay) for a person to say
"whatever" all the time or "cool!" whether it's crap or golden.
-=-My view starting in about the 10th grade was that either the stuff is
important (and therefore everyone should demonstrate mastery) or it isn't that
important (and so why are you learning it). I haven't seen any reason to
change my opinion on that. -=-
One opinion can't fit all, in such cases, though. What's important to one
person might be exactly everything school teaches (because the person's
intelligences are mathematical and verbal, and the person's personality is
conservative and conforming). Someone whose talents are all musical and artsy can
go crazy at school, but the opinion that art and music are vitally important
will make no sense to a fullblown athlete without many other "intelligences"
(Gardner-style).
There are still reasons to change your opinion. You might end up with grown
child who becomes a professor or teacher and who will then be required to
compare students and rank them. Or an orchestra conductor who has to decide
who's first chair. Or a lead engineer who has to decide who's in charge of a
project. Or the manager of a restaurant who has to decide who to hire as a
waiter.
-=- I remain mystified as to why thinks that it is sensible to set up a
system where children can get a C or D in a subject and then move right on to the
next one subject.
=-
The divisions are arbitrary, and it seems the most unfair to the A students,
that D students move right on. But even in the absence of grades, the
frustration and unfairness remain. Every year that teachers get raises, the
dimwitted ones make as much more just for having survived another year as the
most creative and concerned teachers do. And the best teachers will spend some
of that salary on stuff for the classroom, or on their own professional
improvement, making their net personal pay smaller than the teachers who wouldn't
buy a poster for the classroom or a book on how children learn to save their
lives.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>but if you took ahad
>>position teaching art for money, you would be expected to show that people
>>improved or gained knowledge, and when there's an instructor who'sexpected to
>>gauge others' progress, then that gauge is feedback in the judgment of theYes, this is true, and I mostly don't agree with its efficacy. A teacher
>>instructor.<<
should be able to give an experience, to share their expertise, and leave it
at that. Their supervisor's judgment of the teacher should come from the
students' feedback. After all, they are the "customers". If one is seeking
to learn a subject and they take a course, they will know what they learned,
and how effective it was for them.
It certainly is EASIER to reduce a person's work to a single letter, but I
think it is much more effective to communicate in more detail about what
works, what needs work, etc.
And I'm talking about a children's school situation here, not a specialized
adult course (though as an adult I would prefer the honest, intelligent
communication over the grade too :o)
>>People don't get paid (and students don't pay) for a person to sayI think it is completely possible to communicate intelligently about a
>>"whatever" all the time or "cool!" whether it's crap or golden.<<
person's work without grading and have it be much more effective than
"whatever" or "cool". I agree that a teacher is being employed with the goal
of the student to learn something, and that can happen through good
communication.
>>Or an orchestra conductor who has to decideof a
>>who's first chair. Or a lead engineer who has to decide who's in charge
>>project. Or the manager of a restaurant who has to decide who to hire asa
>>waiter.<<Yes, in real life occupations, people are judged on their abilities and will
be compared to others in order to make the cut or not. Doing this in the
false reality of school makes no sense to me (i.e. comparing one child's
work with another's).
I also was a teacher from 1986 to 2000 in different capacities and never
marked a single grade for a student. I find the whole grading system a
hugely damaging element of public education. Communicating honestly, sharing
openly, having a sense of community and support, all of these things could
replace the grading system in a heartbeat, imho.
Thanks,
Jacki
PS. Sandra, I met wonderful you and your wonderful family at Karin's house
on your way through Phoenix a bunch of months ago. Holly and I got into a
rambunctious Donkey Conga game that resulted in my family's Xmas purchase of
it (yay!). I just mention this because in your upcoming travels, if you all
need a place to stay, you are welcome here too. We are just a few miles
southeast of Phoenix.
Mara Winders
Jacki,
Where you in public education or private? I love to hear that there are
teachers out there working outside the grading nightmare. There is one
public school in my area that moved away from grades in the lower
elementary grades, but other than that, I've only heard of private
schools where this was done.
Does anyone have any experience with college teaching without grades in
a school where grades are used?
Mara
Gold Standard wrote:
Where you in public education or private? I love to hear that there are
teachers out there working outside the grading nightmare. There is one
public school in my area that moved away from grades in the lower
elementary grades, but other than that, I've only heard of private
schools where this was done.
Does anyone have any experience with college teaching without grades in
a school where grades are used?
Mara
Gold Standard wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I also was a teacher from 1986 to 2000 in different capacities and never
> marked a single grade for a student. I find the whole grading system a
> hugely damaging element of public education. Communicating honestly,
> sharing
> openly, having a sense of community and support, all of these things could
> replace the grading system in a heartbeat, imho.
>
> Thanks,
> Jacki
Gold Standard
I taught at a private alternative school...River Valley Community School in
Athens, Ohio. They are closing this year after 20 years running.
Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts has some programs that avoid
grading, or at least they used to. I went there for undergrad which was what
lead me in the direction of alternative education which lead me to
unschooling, lol. They specialize in education and human services. Probably
other things now as well.
It's great to hear of a public school moving away from grades!
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Mara Winders
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 8:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] giving grades
Jacki,
Where you in public education or private? I love to hear that there are
teachers out there working outside the grading nightmare. There is one
public school in my area that moved away from grades in the lower
elementary grades, but other than that, I've only heard of private
schools where this was done.
Does anyone have any experience with college teaching without grades in
a school where grades are used?
Mara
Gold Standard wrote:
Yahoo! Groups Links
Athens, Ohio. They are closing this year after 20 years running.
Lesley University in Cambridge, Massachusetts has some programs that avoid
grading, or at least they used to. I went there for undergrad which was what
lead me in the direction of alternative education which lead me to
unschooling, lol. They specialize in education and human services. Probably
other things now as well.
It's great to hear of a public school moving away from grades!
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Mara Winders
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 8:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] giving grades
Jacki,
Where you in public education or private? I love to hear that there are
teachers out there working outside the grading nightmare. There is one
public school in my area that moved away from grades in the lower
elementary grades, but other than that, I've only heard of private
schools where this was done.
Does anyone have any experience with college teaching without grades in
a school where grades are used?
Mara
Gold Standard wrote:
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I also was a teacher from 1986 to 2000 in different capacities and never
> marked a single grade for a student. I find the whole grading system a
> hugely damaging element of public education. Communicating honestly,
> sharing
> openly, having a sense of community and support, all of these things could
> replace the grading system in a heartbeat, imho.
>
> Thanks,
> Jacki
Yahoo! Groups Links
nellebelle
>>>>>>>>Does anyone have any experience with college teaching without grades ina school where grades are used?>>>>>>>>
Check out Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
huntmom1996
Mara wrote:
** There is one public school in my area that moved away from grades
in the lower elementary grades, but other than that, I've only heard
of private schools where this was done.
Does anyone have any experience with college teaching without grades
in a school where grades are used?***
The public school system ny daughter was in didn't give grades at all
until 6th grade, just narrative, paragraph long assessments on each
subject. It is considered one of the best school systems in the
state by those who care about such things. Interestingly, they
switched assessments last year to a more "objective reporting
system". The ranking in state assessments has been going down. I
wonder if anyone in the school dept. will make the connection?
I took the same college course (an art course) every semester I could
and loved that the teacher always gave A's because art was
subjective. I turned in a pair of pants that I had drawn on once.
It was sculpture to him, as well as to me, and it was so great to
have my innovation approved of. I hope my kids won't need that
approval for their "innovations"
Peace~Jessica
** There is one public school in my area that moved away from grades
in the lower elementary grades, but other than that, I've only heard
of private schools where this was done.
Does anyone have any experience with college teaching without grades
in a school where grades are used?***
The public school system ny daughter was in didn't give grades at all
until 6th grade, just narrative, paragraph long assessments on each
subject. It is considered one of the best school systems in the
state by those who care about such things. Interestingly, they
switched assessments last year to a more "objective reporting
system". The ranking in state assessments has been going down. I
wonder if anyone in the school dept. will make the connection?
I took the same college course (an art course) every semester I could
and loved that the teacher always gave A's because art was
subjective. I turned in a pair of pants that I had drawn on once.
It was sculpture to him, as well as to me, and it was so great to
have my innovation approved of. I hope my kids won't need that
approval for their "innovations"
Peace~Jessica
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/8/2005 6:15:18 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
jechunt@... writes:
I took the same college course (an art course) every semester I could
and loved that the teacher always gave A's because art was
subjective. I turned in a pair of pants that I had drawn on once.
It was sculpture to him, as well as to me, and it was so great to
have my innovation approved of. I hope my kids won't need that
approval for their "innovations"
-------------------------------------------------------
Having been a teacher, and having been a person who has sometimes resented
less thoughtful and less involved projects/co-workers getting the same "reward"
as me (pay, approval, whatever), if you drew on your pants at school out of
boredom, that wouldn't be the same as if you chose to spend time decorating
your pants. ("The same" in what way?" That's the hard question. <g>) Is
prison art as valuable as similar art made by someone who had the freedom to
jump up and go do something else? Is the carving kids did on desks as "real"
as the carving my husband does on wood?
Holly used to draw on her pants, and did some really cool stuff, so I'm not
suggesting all pants-drawing is school-prison art, just discussing what
"value" is in the value of grades.
One reason I didn't want to teach anymore (there were several) was that the
pay scale was such that it didn't matter how one worked, just so one showed
up. So in effect, all the teachers were "making A's" (or probably making C's)
regardless of how or whether they taught or inspired. So motivation was
zilch. More than that, it was to the lazy and burned out teachers' advantage to
discourage spark and creativity in other newer or more energetic teachers.
In the same way kids are like to say to kids at school "That' stupid, why are
you doing that?" rather than "how cool!" it's pretty often the same with
teachers to other teachers. The lowest common denominator thinking can ooze
into all the cracks.
So nowadays (past my teaching days) it does seem that test scores are the
only goal for the school as a whole (they still need some star students to point
at to give parents hope and shame the other kids, but they only need a
few). I'm guessing that there are instances in which creativity has been
outright banned and shunned, because it doesn't produce points on tests within nine
months.
What's wonderful about unschooling is that in the absence of semesters and
schoolyears, it's just fine if our "results" are fifteen years out, or thirty
years out. There will be moments when my kids are no kids, when they're 35
and 42 and 50, that something they did, heard or saw in these days kicks in.
And it will be "Cool!" not "DOH! It's too late now! Why didn't I think of
this when it mattered, so I could earn school-points with it?"
There were tests done by school reform researchers in the 60's that showed
that in the total absence of grades, kids knew which of the other kids were
best and worst at which subject areas. They could rank themselves and each other
as well as or probably better than any standardized tests. In another
study (reproducible, but how cruel), teachers were given new classes of kids
and false test scores. Believing these numbers really showed the kids'
potential, the teachers paid more attention to the higher-scored kids (though the
scores were false) than to the lower scores. But was it just purely that, or
was it that they knew they were being observed as teachers and were doing what
they thought the researchers wanted them to do? And, it turns out, that WAS
what the researchers wanted.
It's way more complex than it would seem if we talked about it for a year.
I was doing show and tell one year with 7th graders (12 years old, give or
take, for the benefit of Brits and Holly). My intent was to give them chances
to speak aloud, and to share personal stories or hobbies or skills. Some
did bring something cool, and it was fine if they were really creative with
something casual or mundane, like "This chapstick has been in my coat pocket
since last year, and I didn't know where it was..." but one incident
frustrated lots of people. A kid who hadn't prepared pulled out his ballpoint pen and
showed us. Lame. But two OTHER kids then did the same thing, and didn't
say anything more interesting than "this is my pen." The whole game was over.
How, in such a situation, can the really sparkly ones be rewarded if the
only scrip we have for payment is literally scrip: letters on paper that they
can cash in elsewhere or use to get more scrip.
This doesn't affect unschoolers except in the further thinking of the
parents. When you think back on your own schooling, try to think of it from
others' point of view who were involved too. When you look at your kids it's fine
to think "They won't have to mess with grades," but when they're older they
will mess with SOME form of reward and comparison. Kirby was frustrated when
temporary hires made as much as he made at special events the store put on.
I was crushed when he got a D on a test in the first English class he took.
(He seemed not to be.)
It's not just a matter of being competitive. Even a non-competitive person
can being to feel discomfort from the "life's not fair" factor.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jechunt@... writes:
I took the same college course (an art course) every semester I could
and loved that the teacher always gave A's because art was
subjective. I turned in a pair of pants that I had drawn on once.
It was sculpture to him, as well as to me, and it was so great to
have my innovation approved of. I hope my kids won't need that
approval for their "innovations"
-------------------------------------------------------
Having been a teacher, and having been a person who has sometimes resented
less thoughtful and less involved projects/co-workers getting the same "reward"
as me (pay, approval, whatever), if you drew on your pants at school out of
boredom, that wouldn't be the same as if you chose to spend time decorating
your pants. ("The same" in what way?" That's the hard question. <g>) Is
prison art as valuable as similar art made by someone who had the freedom to
jump up and go do something else? Is the carving kids did on desks as "real"
as the carving my husband does on wood?
Holly used to draw on her pants, and did some really cool stuff, so I'm not
suggesting all pants-drawing is school-prison art, just discussing what
"value" is in the value of grades.
One reason I didn't want to teach anymore (there were several) was that the
pay scale was such that it didn't matter how one worked, just so one showed
up. So in effect, all the teachers were "making A's" (or probably making C's)
regardless of how or whether they taught or inspired. So motivation was
zilch. More than that, it was to the lazy and burned out teachers' advantage to
discourage spark and creativity in other newer or more energetic teachers.
In the same way kids are like to say to kids at school "That' stupid, why are
you doing that?" rather than "how cool!" it's pretty often the same with
teachers to other teachers. The lowest common denominator thinking can ooze
into all the cracks.
So nowadays (past my teaching days) it does seem that test scores are the
only goal for the school as a whole (they still need some star students to point
at to give parents hope and shame the other kids, but they only need a
few). I'm guessing that there are instances in which creativity has been
outright banned and shunned, because it doesn't produce points on tests within nine
months.
What's wonderful about unschooling is that in the absence of semesters and
schoolyears, it's just fine if our "results" are fifteen years out, or thirty
years out. There will be moments when my kids are no kids, when they're 35
and 42 and 50, that something they did, heard or saw in these days kicks in.
And it will be "Cool!" not "DOH! It's too late now! Why didn't I think of
this when it mattered, so I could earn school-points with it?"
There were tests done by school reform researchers in the 60's that showed
that in the total absence of grades, kids knew which of the other kids were
best and worst at which subject areas. They could rank themselves and each other
as well as or probably better than any standardized tests. In another
study (reproducible, but how cruel), teachers were given new classes of kids
and false test scores. Believing these numbers really showed the kids'
potential, the teachers paid more attention to the higher-scored kids (though the
scores were false) than to the lower scores. But was it just purely that, or
was it that they knew they were being observed as teachers and were doing what
they thought the researchers wanted them to do? And, it turns out, that WAS
what the researchers wanted.
It's way more complex than it would seem if we talked about it for a year.
I was doing show and tell one year with 7th graders (12 years old, give or
take, for the benefit of Brits and Holly). My intent was to give them chances
to speak aloud, and to share personal stories or hobbies or skills. Some
did bring something cool, and it was fine if they were really creative with
something casual or mundane, like "This chapstick has been in my coat pocket
since last year, and I didn't know where it was..." but one incident
frustrated lots of people. A kid who hadn't prepared pulled out his ballpoint pen and
showed us. Lame. But two OTHER kids then did the same thing, and didn't
say anything more interesting than "this is my pen." The whole game was over.
How, in such a situation, can the really sparkly ones be rewarded if the
only scrip we have for payment is literally scrip: letters on paper that they
can cash in elsewhere or use to get more scrip.
This doesn't affect unschoolers except in the further thinking of the
parents. When you think back on your own schooling, try to think of it from
others' point of view who were involved too. When you look at your kids it's fine
to think "They won't have to mess with grades," but when they're older they
will mess with SOME form of reward and comparison. Kirby was frustrated when
temporary hires made as much as he made at special events the store put on.
I was crushed when he got a D on a test in the first English class he took.
(He seemed not to be.)
It's not just a matter of being competitive. Even a non-competitive person
can being to feel discomfort from the "life's not fair" factor.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>When you look at your kids it's finethey
>>to think "They won't have to mess with grades," but when they're older
>>will mess with SOME form of reward and comparison.<<I agree that some systems and situations are set up to equally reward people
of very different quality of output, and that does suck. Information to our
kids about this is important as they get older and more involved in society.
My teens have dealt with this as well.
I liked your example Sandra of the show and tell situation. This is where I
see honest communication coming in. I think it is effective to tell the kid
who showed his pen out of his pocket at show and tell, "Looks like you don't
have something prepared" and really, nothing else probably needs to be said.
Everyone in the situation knows the deal, and has a much more positive
experience with the kid who brought his scrap book from his trip to Turkey.
He'll get all kinds of rewarding feedback naturally because he is sharing
something from his passion or interest.
It seems that the natural response of humans to humans is to positively
respond to things that are genuine and interesting and not respond to the
mundane so much.
It's when we get into systems that continue in the schooling fashion of
monotony and narrow thinking that we lose out on that enrichment.
Just some more thoughts on the subject,
Jacki
huntmom1996
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
Holly used to draw on her pants, and did some really cool stuff, so
I'm not suggesting all pants-drawing is school-prison art, just
discussing what "value" is in the value of grades.****
Yes, that is why I used this example of the college professor.
Grades, the pressure of them, the agenda of grades, all
the "mainstream" attitudes that go with grades mold what students do
in such a negative way. To clarify, I felt so free (for teh first
time in my educational career) to do what I wanted knowing that
grades weren't an issue.
It was a very special gift that that college professor gave. In
return, he saw some wonderful art created by his students.
Sandra also wrote:
"More than that, it was to the lazy and burned out teachers'
advantage to discourage spark and creativity in other newer or more
energetic teachers. In the same way kids are like to say to kids at
school "That' stupid, why are you doing that?" rather than "how
cool!" it's pretty often the same with teachers to other teachers."
I completely agree with your comparison to teaching, as a former
teacher myself. To further clarify why I choose my art course as an
example, this teacher's course was openly pooh-poohed by other
professors as a course kids took to get an "easy A". While I am sure
that happened occasionally, more often it wasn't the case.
Sandra :
"When you look at your kids it's fine to think "They won't have to
mess with grades," but when they're older they will mess with SOME
form of reward and comparison."
Absolutely. I think that unschooling gives them real world examples
of how comparisons and rewards can be authentic, if not always "fair"
and sometimes frustrating.
Peace~Jessica
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/10/2005 2:18:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
jechunt@... writes:
To clarify, I felt so free (for teh first
time in my educational career) to do what I wanted knowing that
grades weren't an issue.
-------------------------------
But you were still in school.
Did you need a college professor to give you an A (and not "a real A," and
you knew that) to feel good about what you drew on your pants?
What if you could have felt that thrill of freedom OUTSIDE of your
"educational career" to do what you wanted where grades never *were* an issue?
Would you have drawn on your pants and still really loved them if you had
never shown them as an art project in a class at a university?
-=- I think that unschooling gives them real world examples
of how comparisons and rewards can be authentic, if not always "fair"
and sometimes frustrating.-=-
It also gives them years and miles of freedom instead of memories of a
series of 30x40' rooms in which they won or lost, passed or failed, but were to
report every day to be judged. They pretty much choose their own judges, and
when the judgment is inevitable, they choose which judges to regard highly or
not.
Another kind of example:
If everyone here made an apple pie (yes, from scratch, preferably from
apples you grew yourself) and we entered them in a fair (something that happens in
many parts of the world, and certainly around here all the time, county and
state fairs)... what if someone decided that apple pie was subjective and
so every pie entered should get a blue ribbon?
Each entrant would have some idea which pies were better than hers,
prettier, nicer tasting, more "legitimate" (more labor intensive, or more personally
raised or more organic or better apples), and an idea about the relative
merits and value of a pie made by someone who's been expert for 20 years, vs. one
who only made her first pies THIS year, but they are stunningly remarkable.
So the entrants have already, in their minds, ranked those pies and are
probably pretty close to right. If each has a blue ribbon, those ribbons aren't
worth the cheap acetate on which they're printed.
Judgments and comparisons can be avoided, but they shouldn't be negated.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jechunt@... writes:
To clarify, I felt so free (for teh first
time in my educational career) to do what I wanted knowing that
grades weren't an issue.
-------------------------------
But you were still in school.
Did you need a college professor to give you an A (and not "a real A," and
you knew that) to feel good about what you drew on your pants?
What if you could have felt that thrill of freedom OUTSIDE of your
"educational career" to do what you wanted where grades never *were* an issue?
Would you have drawn on your pants and still really loved them if you had
never shown them as an art project in a class at a university?
-=- I think that unschooling gives them real world examples
of how comparisons and rewards can be authentic, if not always "fair"
and sometimes frustrating.-=-
It also gives them years and miles of freedom instead of memories of a
series of 30x40' rooms in which they won or lost, passed or failed, but were to
report every day to be judged. They pretty much choose their own judges, and
when the judgment is inevitable, they choose which judges to regard highly or
not.
Another kind of example:
If everyone here made an apple pie (yes, from scratch, preferably from
apples you grew yourself) and we entered them in a fair (something that happens in
many parts of the world, and certainly around here all the time, county and
state fairs)... what if someone decided that apple pie was subjective and
so every pie entered should get a blue ribbon?
Each entrant would have some idea which pies were better than hers,
prettier, nicer tasting, more "legitimate" (more labor intensive, or more personally
raised or more organic or better apples), and an idea about the relative
merits and value of a pie made by someone who's been expert for 20 years, vs. one
who only made her first pies THIS year, but they are stunningly remarkable.
So the entrants have already, in their minds, ranked those pies and are
probably pretty close to right. If each has a blue ribbon, those ribbons aren't
worth the cheap acetate on which they're printed.
Judgments and comparisons can be avoided, but they shouldn't be negated.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandrewmama
On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:27 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
last year. We were nearing the end of our first year as a
"homeschool 4H club"; he as an officer in the club, and I as a co-
leader. We weren't RU'ing yet and so there was a bit of mild
pressure on him to find something, anything to enter in the county
fair. He settled on a delicious black raspberry pie made from the
fruit that my great-aunt picked from her property. This dear older
woman, spends countless hours each June, swatting mosquitoes, picking
and COUNTING tens of thousands of black raspberries. She drops a
leaf into her receptacle after each 100 raspberries and when she
takes them indoors to spread out on newspaper and let the bugs
escape, she counts the leaves so that she can report to each lucky
recipient, exactly how many raspberries she is gifting to them!
Anyway, I digress.
Ds made this delicious black raspberry pie, created a notebook with
it's recipe, nutritional content and tied it in with the nutrition
activities we'd done as a club. On judging day, he received a blue
ribbon. The judge told him that she would've recommended that his
entry go on to the State Fair if not for the fact that he'd erred in
the amount of tapioca he put in and the pie was a bit runny. "oooh
but I like it runny!"
However, as we looked around, we began to notice that there were
countless blue ribbons! It didn't take long to figure out that a
blue ribbon was easily attained. All one had to do to get a blue
ribbon was follow the few directions for exhibiting in the fair. It
didn't matter how much effort one put into their exhibit, or the
quality of their project , as long as they labeled it properly,
answered the three questions everyone had to answer and faced the judge.
Ds, who has never been subjected to grading, quickly soured on the
whole experience. It was a fruitless exercise in his eyes and he has
no interest in entering anything in the fair ever again. Frankly, I
don't blame him. We're enjoying 4H for the friendships and community
service opportunities but competitions are not our goal.
I've tried to lead our 4H club away from being leader-directed and
more towards being an "unschooling" club. It hasn't been easy
because my co-Leader, who homeschools her 4 children, has been moving
towards "schooling" as I've been moved towards RU and she insists
that her three 4H children take club jobs they're not interested in,
complete projects they have no desire to work on and enter multiple
fair exhibits they'd just as soon steer clear of all in the interest
of padding their resumes.
Anyway, I could go on for days about the frustrations and
complexities of living and playing amongst non-unschoolers but I'll
save that for future posts.
Chris
> Another kind of example:This reminded me of my ds's (14) experience with his 4H fair exhibit
> If everyone here made an apple pie (yes, from scratch, preferably from
> apples you grew yourself) and we entered them in a fair (something
> that happens in
> many parts of the world, and certainly around here all the time,
> county and
> state fairs)... what if someone decided that apple pie was
> subjective and
> so every pie entered should get a blue ribbon?
>
> Each entrant would have some idea which pies were better than hers,
> prettier, nicer tasting, more "legitimate" (more labor intensive,
> or more personally
> raised or more organic or better apples), and an idea about the
> relative
> merits and value of a pie made by someone who's been expert for 20
> years, vs. one
> who only made her first pies THIS year, but they are stunningly
> remarkable.
> So the entrants have already, in their minds, ranked those pies
> and are
> probably pretty close to right. If each has a blue ribbon, those
> ribbons aren't
> worth the cheap acetate on which they're printed.
>
> Judgments and comparisons can be avoided, but they shouldn't be
> negated.
>
> Sandra
last year. We were nearing the end of our first year as a
"homeschool 4H club"; he as an officer in the club, and I as a co-
leader. We weren't RU'ing yet and so there was a bit of mild
pressure on him to find something, anything to enter in the county
fair. He settled on a delicious black raspberry pie made from the
fruit that my great-aunt picked from her property. This dear older
woman, spends countless hours each June, swatting mosquitoes, picking
and COUNTING tens of thousands of black raspberries. She drops a
leaf into her receptacle after each 100 raspberries and when she
takes them indoors to spread out on newspaper and let the bugs
escape, she counts the leaves so that she can report to each lucky
recipient, exactly how many raspberries she is gifting to them!
Anyway, I digress.
Ds made this delicious black raspberry pie, created a notebook with
it's recipe, nutritional content and tied it in with the nutrition
activities we'd done as a club. On judging day, he received a blue
ribbon. The judge told him that she would've recommended that his
entry go on to the State Fair if not for the fact that he'd erred in
the amount of tapioca he put in and the pie was a bit runny. "oooh
but I like it runny!"
However, as we looked around, we began to notice that there were
countless blue ribbons! It didn't take long to figure out that a
blue ribbon was easily attained. All one had to do to get a blue
ribbon was follow the few directions for exhibiting in the fair. It
didn't matter how much effort one put into their exhibit, or the
quality of their project , as long as they labeled it properly,
answered the three questions everyone had to answer and faced the judge.
Ds, who has never been subjected to grading, quickly soured on the
whole experience. It was a fruitless exercise in his eyes and he has
no interest in entering anything in the fair ever again. Frankly, I
don't blame him. We're enjoying 4H for the friendships and community
service opportunities but competitions are not our goal.
I've tried to lead our 4H club away from being leader-directed and
more towards being an "unschooling" club. It hasn't been easy
because my co-Leader, who homeschools her 4 children, has been moving
towards "schooling" as I've been moved towards RU and she insists
that her three 4H children take club jobs they're not interested in,
complete projects they have no desire to work on and enter multiple
fair exhibits they'd just as soon steer clear of all in the interest
of padding their resumes.
Anyway, I could go on for days about the frustrations and
complexities of living and playing amongst non-unschoolers but I'll
save that for future posts.
Chris
Pam Sorooshian
On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:12 AM, Sandrewmama wrote:
judging using by 4H, though.
I mean - your particular judges might have been doing that, but it
isn't how it should work.
The entries are being judged against a "standard" - not against each
other.
Excellent or Blue: A blue is given to those entries or members who most
nearly meet the standards established for the particular class or level
of performance. Excellent does not indicate perfection, but is a wide
grouping indicating a high degree of achievement toward the elements in
the standards for the exhibit.
Good or Red: The second or red grouping indicates those exhibits or
individuals who rank good in relation to the particular standards or
expected achievement of the class or contest. Either the general level
of the accomplishment is less than excellent or enough specific
shortcomings are found to cause the placing to drop from excellent to
good.
Fair or White: The white grouping contains those exhibits or
contestants who upon evaluation are found lacking and rate only
average, acceptable, or satisfactory rating for the standards
established.
In the Danish System exhibits are assigned an award based on a
numerical score for blue, red, and white ribbons. The score blue ribbon
would be 90-100, red ribbon would be 80-89, white ribbon would be
70-79, and no award or a participation ribbon for a score of 69 or
below. When the Modified Danish System is employed individual entries
or contestants within each group are further ranked in relation to
their relative standing within each group giving strict adherence to a
standard of characteristics for a blue, red, or white ribbon that is
used by the judge.
This system allows for the fact that there are often relatively minor
differences between entries - so ALL entries of a certain caliber are
honored.
However, it is possible (and I've seen it) that no blue ribbons will be
awarded in a category in which the judges do not score any entry above
90 percent. There are specific things judges are looking for - they
have scoring sheets to work from.
In addition, very often, a gold medal is also given - this is the first
place winner. There may be a 2nd place, too.
I've judged 4H entries, and it is a HUGE labor-intensive task in which
each and every entry is carefully examined and scored and we most
definitely didn't just give blue ribbons to all entries.
-pam
> However, as we looked around, we began to notice that there wereThis is not an accurate representation of "The Danish System," of
> countless blue ribbons! It didn't take long to figure out that a
> blue ribbon was easily attained. All one had to do to get a blue
> ribbon was follow the few directions for exhibiting in the fair. It
> didn't matter how much effort one put into their exhibit, or the
> quality of their project , as long as they labeled it properly,
> answered the three questions everyone had to answer and faced the
> judge.
judging using by 4H, though.
I mean - your particular judges might have been doing that, but it
isn't how it should work.
The entries are being judged against a "standard" - not against each
other.
Excellent or Blue: A blue is given to those entries or members who most
nearly meet the standards established for the particular class or level
of performance. Excellent does not indicate perfection, but is a wide
grouping indicating a high degree of achievement toward the elements in
the standards for the exhibit.
Good or Red: The second or red grouping indicates those exhibits or
individuals who rank good in relation to the particular standards or
expected achievement of the class or contest. Either the general level
of the accomplishment is less than excellent or enough specific
shortcomings are found to cause the placing to drop from excellent to
good.
Fair or White: The white grouping contains those exhibits or
contestants who upon evaluation are found lacking and rate only
average, acceptable, or satisfactory rating for the standards
established.
In the Danish System exhibits are assigned an award based on a
numerical score for blue, red, and white ribbons. The score blue ribbon
would be 90-100, red ribbon would be 80-89, white ribbon would be
70-79, and no award or a participation ribbon for a score of 69 or
below. When the Modified Danish System is employed individual entries
or contestants within each group are further ranked in relation to
their relative standing within each group giving strict adherence to a
standard of characteristics for a blue, red, or white ribbon that is
used by the judge.
This system allows for the fact that there are often relatively minor
differences between entries - so ALL entries of a certain caliber are
honored.
However, it is possible (and I've seen it) that no blue ribbons will be
awarded in a category in which the judges do not score any entry above
90 percent. There are specific things judges are looking for - they
have scoring sheets to work from.
In addition, very often, a gold medal is also given - this is the first
place winner. There may be a 2nd place, too.
I've judged 4H entries, and it is a HUGE labor-intensive task in which
each and every entry is carefully examined and scored and we most
definitely didn't just give blue ribbons to all entries.
-pam
Sandrewmama
I'm not writing this to argue with anyone. I believe you Pam but
I'll be a little more specific about what I found out. Under the "4H
Exhibit Building Division" instructions in our County Fair booklet
the 4th item says,
"GOALS: Exhibitor must answer the following questions about the exhibit:
1) What was your exhibit goal(s)?
2) How did you go about working toward your goal(s)?
3) What were the most important things you learned as you worked
toward your goal(s)?
4) What would you like to do in this project area next year?
Failure to attach the responses to these statements will result in a
lower ribbon rating."
If the exhibitor did the above and properly labeled their exhibit
they were awarded a blue ribbon regardless of the effort put into
the exhibit or answering the questions. Needless to say, my son did
not feel that the effort, or lack thereof, that was put into the
exhibit nor the quality of the end product was even considered in the
ribbon award he received. Maybe he had a goofy judge but as we sat
their waiting for his turn to conference with the judge we saw so
many blue ribbons floating about that it seemed meaningless. Every
one of our club members that exhibited received at least a blue ribbon.
We did have two club members' exhibits selected for higher awards.
One of our youngest members had a notebook about his dog, for which
he received a LOT of assistance from his parents in putting
together. He was awarded a gold ribbon but his age prevented him
from being able to enter it in the State Fair. Another older member
had a very well designed and put together notebook about the history
and cultural significance of a Sari and illustrated how to wear one.
She received a Purple ribbon and got to exhibit in the State Fair.
I guess I just don't get the value in the whole process of grading
and ribbon awarding for 4H projects.
Chris
I'll be a little more specific about what I found out. Under the "4H
Exhibit Building Division" instructions in our County Fair booklet
the 4th item says,
"GOALS: Exhibitor must answer the following questions about the exhibit:
1) What was your exhibit goal(s)?
2) How did you go about working toward your goal(s)?
3) What were the most important things you learned as you worked
toward your goal(s)?
4) What would you like to do in this project area next year?
Failure to attach the responses to these statements will result in a
lower ribbon rating."
If the exhibitor did the above and properly labeled their exhibit
they were awarded a blue ribbon regardless of the effort put into
the exhibit or answering the questions. Needless to say, my son did
not feel that the effort, or lack thereof, that was put into the
exhibit nor the quality of the end product was even considered in the
ribbon award he received. Maybe he had a goofy judge but as we sat
their waiting for his turn to conference with the judge we saw so
many blue ribbons floating about that it seemed meaningless. Every
one of our club members that exhibited received at least a blue ribbon.
We did have two club members' exhibits selected for higher awards.
One of our youngest members had a notebook about his dog, for which
he received a LOT of assistance from his parents in putting
together. He was awarded a gold ribbon but his age prevented him
from being able to enter it in the State Fair. Another older member
had a very well designed and put together notebook about the history
and cultural significance of a Sari and illustrated how to wear one.
She received a Purple ribbon and got to exhibit in the State Fair.
I guess I just don't get the value in the whole process of grading
and ribbon awarding for 4H projects.
Chris
On Jun 10, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
> There are specific things judges are looking for - they
> have scoring sheets to work from.
>
> In addition, very often, a gold medal is also given - this is the
> first
> place winner. There may be a 2nd place, too.
>
> I've judged 4H entries, and it is a HUGE labor-intensive task in which
> each and every entry is carefully examined and scored and we most
> definitely didn't just give blue ribbons to all entries.
>
> -pam
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/10/2005 10:13:37 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
Ds, who has never been subjected to grading, quickly soured on the
whole experience. It was a fruitless exercise in his eyes
Fruitless?
Full of hand-counted rasperries?
-=- It was a fruitless exercise in his eyes and he has
no interest in entering anything in the fair ever again. Frankly, I
don't blame him. -=-
But will he still make pies?
Did he only make the pie for the sake of competition, rather than to eat?
Had he made pies before? Has he made pies since?
Those aren't personal questions. Those are questions for all the readers,
to consider value and purpose and what "fruitless" means. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
Ds, who has never been subjected to grading, quickly soured on the
whole experience. It was a fruitless exercise in his eyes
Fruitless?
Full of hand-counted rasperries?
-=- It was a fruitless exercise in his eyes and he has
no interest in entering anything in the fair ever again. Frankly, I
don't blame him. -=-
But will he still make pies?
Did he only make the pie for the sake of competition, rather than to eat?
Had he made pies before? Has he made pies since?
Those aren't personal questions. Those are questions for all the readers,
to consider value and purpose and what "fruitless" means. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<I've judged 4H entries, and it is a HUGE labor-intensive task in which
each and every entry is carefully examined and scored and we most
definitely didn't just give blue ribbons to all entries.>>>
This has been our experience with 4-h as well. But I do have to say that
our first contest it SEEMED as though everyone got a blue ribbon. We were
expecting to see only one and there were many. It kind of took us back.
I also know that our county 4-H Homemaking and Art Fair has many
professional caliber entries. The kids work for months and usually on the
way home from the judging, the kids are already getting a plan together for
what to enter next year.
Julie S.
each and every entry is carefully examined and scored and we most
definitely didn't just give blue ribbons to all entries.>>>
This has been our experience with 4-h as well. But I do have to say that
our first contest it SEEMED as though everyone got a blue ribbon. We were
expecting to see only one and there were many. It kind of took us back.
I also know that our county 4-H Homemaking and Art Fair has many
professional caliber entries. The kids work for months and usually on the
way home from the judging, the kids are already getting a plan together for
what to enter next year.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pam Sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: giving grades
>
> On Jun 10, 2005, at 8:12 AM, Sandrewmama wrote:
>
>> However, as we looked around, we began to notice that there were
>> countless blue ribbons! It didn't take long to figure out that a
>> blue ribbon was easily attained. All one had to do to get a blue
>> ribbon was follow the few directions for exhibiting in the fair. It
>> didn't matter how much effort one put into their exhibit, or the
>> quality of their project , as long as they labeled it properly,
>> answered the three questions everyone had to answer and faced the
>> judge.
>
> This is not an accurate representation of "The Danish System," of
> judging using by 4H, though.
>
> I mean - your particular judges might have been doing that, but it
> isn't how it should work.
>
> The entries are being judged against a "standard" - not against each
> other.
>
> Excellent or Blue: A blue is given to those entries or members who most
> nearly meet the standards established for the particular class or level
> of performance. Excellent does not indicate perfection, but is a wide
> grouping indicating a high degree of achievement toward the elements in
> the standards for the exhibit.
>
> Good or Red: The second or red grouping indicates those exhibits or
> individuals who rank good in relation to the particular standards or
> expected achievement of the class or contest. Either the general level
> of the accomplishment is less than excellent or enough specific
> shortcomings are found to cause the placing to drop from excellent to
> good.
>
> Fair or White: The white grouping contains those exhibits or
> contestants who upon evaluation are found lacking and rate only
> average, acceptable, or satisfactory rating for the standards
> established.
>
> In the Danish System exhibits are assigned an award based on a
> numerical score for blue, red, and white ribbons. The score blue ribbon
> would be 90-100, red ribbon would be 80-89, white ribbon would be
> 70-79, and no award or a participation ribbon for a score of 69 or
> below. When the Modified Danish System is employed individual entries
> or contestants within each group are further ranked in relation to
> their relative standing within each group giving strict adherence to a
> standard of characteristics for a blue, red, or white ribbon that is
> used by the judge.
>
> This system allows for the fact that there are often relatively minor
> differences between entries - so ALL entries of a certain caliber are
> honored.
>
> However, it is possible (and I've seen it) that no blue ribbons will be
> awarded in a category in which the judges do not score any entry above
> 90 percent. There are specific things judges are looking for - they
> have scoring sheets to work from.
>
> In addition, very often, a gold medal is also given - this is the first
> place winner. There may be a 2nd place, too.
>
> I've judged 4H entries, and it is a HUGE labor-intensive task in which
> each and every entry is carefully examined and scored and we most
> definitely didn't just give blue ribbons to all entries.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/10/2005 8:24:01 PM Central Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
This has been our experience with 4-h as well. But I do have to say that
our first contest it SEEMED as though everyone got a blue ribbon. We were
expecting to see only one and there were many. It kind of took us back.
~~~
Boy, I'm glad I read this, and Pam's explanation. I really love the
exhibits at the state/county fair, but I never understood how there could be so many
blue ribbons in the 4H tent!
Thanks!
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
This has been our experience with 4-h as well. But I do have to say that
our first contest it SEEMED as though everyone got a blue ribbon. We were
expecting to see only one and there were many. It kind of took us back.
~~~
Boy, I'm glad I read this, and Pam's explanation. I really love the
exhibits at the state/county fair, but I never understood how there could be so many
blue ribbons in the 4H tent!
Thanks!
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/11/2005 4:44:48 AM Central Standard Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
I guess I just don't get the value in the whole process of grading
and ribbon awarding for 4H projects.
~~~
It appears to me that the competition is not against the other entries--but
against the standard set. Perhaps some of the projects are designed just to
reap the benefits of going through the *process* and not the end result.
When you think about it, it's really a great way to judge things. Every kid
gets to experience the same project in their own way, and every result will
be different, though with common milestones along the way. (I understand
they get lots of choices of projects, too). Judging against a standard of
objectives allows for lots of leeway in the subjective, and that's where everyone
differs anyway.
There's nothing wrong with EVERYONE getting a blue ribbon. There are plenty
to go around.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
I guess I just don't get the value in the whole process of grading
and ribbon awarding for 4H projects.
~~~
It appears to me that the competition is not against the other entries--but
against the standard set. Perhaps some of the projects are designed just to
reap the benefits of going through the *process* and not the end result.
When you think about it, it's really a great way to judge things. Every kid
gets to experience the same project in their own way, and every result will
be different, though with common milestones along the way. (I understand
they get lots of choices of projects, too). Judging against a standard of
objectives allows for lots of leeway in the subjective, and that's where everyone
differs anyway.
There's nothing wrong with EVERYONE getting a blue ribbon. There are plenty
to go around.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
April M
Oh, that's not at all how it's done in our county. We have three "layers"
of judging.
The first is for the Premium ribbons. They get an A (blue), B (red), or C
(yellow) ribbon based on how they followed the rules, use of creativity,
etc. Our judges have a criteria sheet with a minimum of 8 areas to evaluate.
On the form is a place for the judge to make comments and suggestions. The
goal at this level is to give positive feedback and constructive criticism.
The next level is for Strip Ribbons. This is to place 1st-6th in each class.
(usually class is determined by age, for example: Creative writing is the
section, single poem would be the class and each class divided into 3 age
groups. So all the single poems submitted by 8-11 year olds would be judged
against each other.
The last level is the placing of Rosettes. Here, we take the strip winners
from each class, so all the single poems that received strip ribbons will
now be judged together regardless of age. Then we award 1st-6th rosettes
with first being Best of Show.
This is a lot of work for our judges and as the superintendent of a couple
of different areas, I can tell you that we carefully choose judges who will
put the time into this.
The goal with all of this is that each child for each entry will get some
feedback.
I'm in the midst of getting judges and organizing my department, my kids are
working on projects and soon our world will revolve around 4-H Fair for a
few weeks. It is a fantastic experience. My kids try new things each year as
they look through the Fair book for idea and they work on old stand-bys.
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-16, Karl-14, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
* Michigan Unschoolers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art! http://www.artkunst23.com
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/
"Know where to find the information and how to use it - That's the secret of
success."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Sandrewmama
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 7:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: giving grades
I'm not writing this to argue with anyone. I believe you Pam but
I'll be a little more specific about what I found out. Under the "4H
Exhibit Building Division" instructions in our County Fair booklet
the 4th item says,
"GOALS: Exhibitor must answer the following questions about the exhibit:
1) What was your exhibit goal(s)?
2) How did you go about working toward your goal(s)?
3) What were the most important things you learned as you worked
toward your goal(s)?
4) What would you like to do in this project area next year?
Failure to attach the responses to these statements will result in a
lower ribbon rating."
If the exhibitor did the above and properly labeled their exhibit
they were awarded a blue ribbon regardless of the effort put into
the exhibit or answering the questions. Needless to say, my son did
not feel that the effort, or lack thereof, that was put into the
exhibit nor the quality of the end product was even considered in the
ribbon award he received. Maybe he had a goofy judge but as we sat
their waiting for his turn to conference with the judge we saw so
many blue ribbons floating about that it seemed meaningless. Every
one of our club members that exhibited received at least a blue ribbon.
We did have two club members' exhibits selected for higher awards.
One of our youngest members had a notebook about his dog, for which
he received a LOT of assistance from his parents in putting
together. He was awarded a gold ribbon but his age prevented him
from being able to enter it in the State Fair. Another older member
had a very well designed and put together notebook about the history
and cultural significance of a Sari and illustrated how to wear one.
She received a Purple ribbon and got to exhibit in the State Fair.
I guess I just don't get the value in the whole process of grading
and ribbon awarding for 4H projects.
Chris
of judging.
The first is for the Premium ribbons. They get an A (blue), B (red), or C
(yellow) ribbon based on how they followed the rules, use of creativity,
etc. Our judges have a criteria sheet with a minimum of 8 areas to evaluate.
On the form is a place for the judge to make comments and suggestions. The
goal at this level is to give positive feedback and constructive criticism.
The next level is for Strip Ribbons. This is to place 1st-6th in each class.
(usually class is determined by age, for example: Creative writing is the
section, single poem would be the class and each class divided into 3 age
groups. So all the single poems submitted by 8-11 year olds would be judged
against each other.
The last level is the placing of Rosettes. Here, we take the strip winners
from each class, so all the single poems that received strip ribbons will
now be judged together regardless of age. Then we award 1st-6th rosettes
with first being Best of Show.
This is a lot of work for our judges and as the superintendent of a couple
of different areas, I can tell you that we carefully choose judges who will
put the time into this.
The goal with all of this is that each child for each entry will get some
feedback.
I'm in the midst of getting judges and organizing my department, my kids are
working on projects and soon our world will revolve around 4-H Fair for a
few weeks. It is a fantastic experience. My kids try new things each year as
they look through the Fair book for idea and they work on old stand-bys.
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-16, Karl-14, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
* Michigan Unschoolers http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art! http://www.artkunst23.com
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/
"Know where to find the information and how to use it - That's the secret of
success."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Sandrewmama
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 7:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: giving grades
I'm not writing this to argue with anyone. I believe you Pam but
I'll be a little more specific about what I found out. Under the "4H
Exhibit Building Division" instructions in our County Fair booklet
the 4th item says,
"GOALS: Exhibitor must answer the following questions about the exhibit:
1) What was your exhibit goal(s)?
2) How did you go about working toward your goal(s)?
3) What were the most important things you learned as you worked
toward your goal(s)?
4) What would you like to do in this project area next year?
Failure to attach the responses to these statements will result in a
lower ribbon rating."
If the exhibitor did the above and properly labeled their exhibit
they were awarded a blue ribbon regardless of the effort put into
the exhibit or answering the questions. Needless to say, my son did
not feel that the effort, or lack thereof, that was put into the
exhibit nor the quality of the end product was even considered in the
ribbon award he received. Maybe he had a goofy judge but as we sat
their waiting for his turn to conference with the judge we saw so
many blue ribbons floating about that it seemed meaningless. Every
one of our club members that exhibited received at least a blue ribbon.
We did have two club members' exhibits selected for higher awards.
One of our youngest members had a notebook about his dog, for which
he received a LOT of assistance from his parents in putting
together. He was awarded a gold ribbon but his age prevented him
from being able to enter it in the State Fair. Another older member
had a very well designed and put together notebook about the history
and cultural significance of a Sari and illustrated how to wear one.
She received a Purple ribbon and got to exhibit in the State Fair.
I guess I just don't get the value in the whole process of grading
and ribbon awarding for 4H projects.
Chris
On Jun 10, 2005, at 5:38 PM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
> There are specific things judges are looking for - they
> have scoring sheets to work from.
>
> In addition, very often, a gold medal is also given - this is the
> first
> place winner. There may be a 2nd place, too.
>
> I've judged 4H entries, and it is a HUGE labor-intensive task in which
> each and every entry is carefully examined and scored and we most
> definitely didn't just give blue ribbons to all entries.
>
> -pam
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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In a message dated 6/11/2005 3:44:48 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
Maybe he had a goofy judge but as we sat
their waiting for his turn to conference with the judge we saw so
many blue ribbons floating about that it seemed meaningless.
===========
So what would have made it "meaningful"?
Would a blue ribbon have made the pie tastier or more nutritious?
Would a white ribbon have made it turn ashlike?
When a kid is in in a class and doesn't learn anything new but gets an A,
and another kid in that class was having a good year, really fascinated with
the subject matter, heard 30 things he'd never heard and looked up related
issues, and learned a TON, and gets a B, what is "meaningful"?
-=-I guess I just don't get the value in the whole process of grading
and ribbon awarding for 4H projects.-=-
If you did really get the value in it, then school might not be so bad an
option for your child. <g>
The problems grades cause can be (are) duplicated in other arenas in
people's lives. The main difference is their choice to be there or not. But
philosophically, they still need to be prepared to deal with the subjective reality
of ANY judging no matter HOW "fair" the rules have been tweaked to be.
I have years and years of experience trying to help people make rules for
arts and sciences competitions fairer (local, principality, kingdom level in the
SCA), and more years trying to talk them out of having the competitions at
all. It seems there are always people at all stages of desire and
understanding for competitions. In a fixed-size group (or anywhere where the people
know who's also NOT in the competition) you get a larger level of comparison
and "value" to prizes and honors and "winner" titles. I think we tried every
possible way on earth. And some people were happy each time and others were
in tears.
An aside for those who are in the SCA, in the more specific parlance of that
group: I've been a Laurel for over 20 years and Mistress of the Pelican for
two or three years longer than that. I was a chronicler and seneschal. I
was involved in these rules changes at the publication, approval, writing,
critiquing and implementation level. Then at the debrief and social-clean-up
edge again. It never was worth it to choose an "arts champion," and as a
Laurel I was looking for artists who were doing things for real uses, not for
competitions and displays. And the competitions and displays themselves are the
antithesis of what club members should've been doing with time, energy,
sites and events.
What helped more than anything--in, during and after all that--was to help
people understand that all judging is subjective, nobody (not even them) could
BE objective, and that they don't have to enter.
I also designed and saved what seemed to be the fairest judging method I'd
ever seen. It's here:
_http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/articles/bardic_competition.html_
(http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/articles/bardic_competition.html)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
Maybe he had a goofy judge but as we sat
their waiting for his turn to conference with the judge we saw so
many blue ribbons floating about that it seemed meaningless.
===========
So what would have made it "meaningful"?
Would a blue ribbon have made the pie tastier or more nutritious?
Would a white ribbon have made it turn ashlike?
When a kid is in in a class and doesn't learn anything new but gets an A,
and another kid in that class was having a good year, really fascinated with
the subject matter, heard 30 things he'd never heard and looked up related
issues, and learned a TON, and gets a B, what is "meaningful"?
-=-I guess I just don't get the value in the whole process of grading
and ribbon awarding for 4H projects.-=-
If you did really get the value in it, then school might not be so bad an
option for your child. <g>
The problems grades cause can be (are) duplicated in other arenas in
people's lives. The main difference is their choice to be there or not. But
philosophically, they still need to be prepared to deal with the subjective reality
of ANY judging no matter HOW "fair" the rules have been tweaked to be.
I have years and years of experience trying to help people make rules for
arts and sciences competitions fairer (local, principality, kingdom level in the
SCA), and more years trying to talk them out of having the competitions at
all. It seems there are always people at all stages of desire and
understanding for competitions. In a fixed-size group (or anywhere where the people
know who's also NOT in the competition) you get a larger level of comparison
and "value" to prizes and honors and "winner" titles. I think we tried every
possible way on earth. And some people were happy each time and others were
in tears.
An aside for those who are in the SCA, in the more specific parlance of that
group: I've been a Laurel for over 20 years and Mistress of the Pelican for
two or three years longer than that. I was a chronicler and seneschal. I
was involved in these rules changes at the publication, approval, writing,
critiquing and implementation level. Then at the debrief and social-clean-up
edge again. It never was worth it to choose an "arts champion," and as a
Laurel I was looking for artists who were doing things for real uses, not for
competitions and displays. And the competitions and displays themselves are the
antithesis of what club members should've been doing with time, energy,
sites and events.
What helped more than anything--in, during and after all that--was to help
people understand that all judging is subjective, nobody (not even them) could
BE objective, and that they don't have to enter.
I also designed and saved what seemed to be the fairest judging method I'd
ever seen. It's here:
_http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/articles/bardic_competition.html_
(http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/articles/bardic_competition.html)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Jun 11, 2005, at 9:12 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
4H building of a county fair have worked hard on their project and meet
the standards of a blue ribbon.
(And, yes, they WILL lower your score for not following display
directions - that's a big deal - getting the labeling right and all
that - but that doesn't mean you GET a blue ribbon for getting it
right, it means you do NOT get one if you don't do it right.)
I've not heard of "conferencing with the judge," either. About a pie??
It sounds like a very small fair - there is no way ours would have time
to "conference" with anybody - they'd have 50 or 100 or more kids to
conference with for each of maybe a hundred or more entry categories at
each age level. Wouldn't work.
Two of my kids have things to enter into the fair this year - both are
submitting short stories. They really LIKE to have chances to have
things they've produced be on display to the public. Show-offs, I guess
<g> -- but, when you write something, you want people to read it - I
mean, that IS the purpose. And the same thing with other projects
they've had in the fair, in the past. It is great fun to go into the
youth exhibit hall and see their own display there and all the people
walking around looking.
They've gotten blue, red, and white ribbons, in the past, and they
pretty much all seemed like reasonable results - blue for the projects
that they did the most work on, red for the ones that they'd worked
less on, and white for the ones they threw together and didn't care as
much about. You have to sign up and say what you're going to submit,
months ahead - and sometimes they didn't have nearly as much interest
when the time came as they thought they would.
The judges sheets are returned to the kids later - and mine have
learned from those. They really like the feedback.
They'd submit their stuff even if it wasn't being judged, though. It is
the FUN of participating in that huge big splendid cornucopia of
interesting displays that motivates them, not getting a ribbon.
Too bad about a kid never wanting to do it again because OTHER kids got
blue ribbons, though. That's a misunderstanding of the point of the
whole thing, I think. It is putting far too much focus on the judging
and ribbons and not on the joy and learning itself.
A couple of kids I know do a lot of sewing. They sew because they're
loving to learn how - to make their own clothes - to WEAR the things
they've made for themselves or see others wear things they've made for
them. When fair time comes and they choose a couple of things to submit
for display, I'm sure they hope to score well, but really it is such a
tiny part of their participation in the whole program, it isn't a big
deal at all.
Same for those who grow vegetables and pick some to display. Same for
those who raise animals. Same for those who learn cake decorating. Same
for the photography project. The focus of their year is not on winning
something at the fair - it is on the learning and fun and comradeship
with others who have similar interests.
The 4H building at the fair is really such a wonderful thing - I LOVE
seeing all those blue ribbons! It is a sort of big joint celebration of
all the hard work the kids did all year - and proof that 'hard work'
can be pleasurable and learning IS pleasurable even when it is hard and
that kids are drawn to learn, they don't have to be coerced into it.
-pam
> Maybe he had a goofy judge but as we satThere ARE a lot of blue ribbons - most kids who submit something to the
> their waiting for his turn to conference with the judge we saw so
> many blue ribbons floating about that it seemed meaningless.
4H building of a county fair have worked hard on their project and meet
the standards of a blue ribbon.
(And, yes, they WILL lower your score for not following display
directions - that's a big deal - getting the labeling right and all
that - but that doesn't mean you GET a blue ribbon for getting it
right, it means you do NOT get one if you don't do it right.)
I've not heard of "conferencing with the judge," either. About a pie??
It sounds like a very small fair - there is no way ours would have time
to "conference" with anybody - they'd have 50 or 100 or more kids to
conference with for each of maybe a hundred or more entry categories at
each age level. Wouldn't work.
Two of my kids have things to enter into the fair this year - both are
submitting short stories. They really LIKE to have chances to have
things they've produced be on display to the public. Show-offs, I guess
<g> -- but, when you write something, you want people to read it - I
mean, that IS the purpose. And the same thing with other projects
they've had in the fair, in the past. It is great fun to go into the
youth exhibit hall and see their own display there and all the people
walking around looking.
They've gotten blue, red, and white ribbons, in the past, and they
pretty much all seemed like reasonable results - blue for the projects
that they did the most work on, red for the ones that they'd worked
less on, and white for the ones they threw together and didn't care as
much about. You have to sign up and say what you're going to submit,
months ahead - and sometimes they didn't have nearly as much interest
when the time came as they thought they would.
The judges sheets are returned to the kids later - and mine have
learned from those. They really like the feedback.
They'd submit their stuff even if it wasn't being judged, though. It is
the FUN of participating in that huge big splendid cornucopia of
interesting displays that motivates them, not getting a ribbon.
Too bad about a kid never wanting to do it again because OTHER kids got
blue ribbons, though. That's a misunderstanding of the point of the
whole thing, I think. It is putting far too much focus on the judging
and ribbons and not on the joy and learning itself.
A couple of kids I know do a lot of sewing. They sew because they're
loving to learn how - to make their own clothes - to WEAR the things
they've made for themselves or see others wear things they've made for
them. When fair time comes and they choose a couple of things to submit
for display, I'm sure they hope to score well, but really it is such a
tiny part of their participation in the whole program, it isn't a big
deal at all.
Same for those who grow vegetables and pick some to display. Same for
those who raise animals. Same for those who learn cake decorating. Same
for the photography project. The focus of their year is not on winning
something at the fair - it is on the learning and fun and comradeship
with others who have similar interests.
The 4H building at the fair is really such a wonderful thing - I LOVE
seeing all those blue ribbons! It is a sort of big joint celebration of
all the hard work the kids did all year - and proof that 'hard work'
can be pleasurable and learning IS pleasurable even when it is hard and
that kids are drawn to learn, they don't have to be coerced into it.
-pam
Sandrewmama
Well, I feel misunderstood so I'll try to clarify on a few points:
On Jun 11, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
>
> I've not heard of "conferencing with the judge," either. About a
> pie??
> It sounds like a very small fair - there is no way ours would have
> time
> to "conference" with anybody - they'd have 50 or 100 or more kids to
> conference with for each of maybe a hundred or more entry
> categories at
> each age level. Wouldn't work.
>
I don't know how our county fair compares in size with the rest of
the country but I can tell you we're in Polk County, Iowa -- the
largest county in the state. Something tells me that it's not a
small fair. Each child spends approximately 3-5 mins. with the judge
(there are multiple judges in each department) talking about their
project. We don't have different age-levels that I'm aware of,
except Clover Kids and 4H kids. Clover Kids get just a "participation
ribbon" no matter what they do. I think this is dandy.
> They've gotten blue, red, and white ribbons, in the past, and they
> pretty much all seemed like reasonable results - blue for the projects
> that they did the most work on, red for the ones that they'd worked
> less on, and white for the ones they threw together and didn't care as
> much about. You have to sign up and say what you're going to submit,
> months ahead - and sometimes they didn't have nearly as much interest
> when the time came as they thought they would.
>
I'm no fair expert but our first experience with our club in which
all of our members were first-timers, was very different. In our
county, you have to sign up by July 1 and the fair takes place the
third week in July. Most of our kids put their exhibits together in-
between those dates.
> The judges sheets are returned to the kids later - and mine have
> learned from those. They really like the feedback.
>
Ds doesn't take criticism well, constructive or not. He really has
no interest in a stranger's opinions of his thoughts, efforts or
products and often has very little interest in my criticism. He
realized before he met with the judge that he'd made an error in the
amount of tapioca he'd put in and he told the judge. When she cut
into the pie, she commented on it's runniness as it's only problem.
She gave him strokes for what little effort he did put into it but
remember, he was there under pressure from me so whatever she had to
say about his project was not important to him. He thought it was
all pretty lame. He was almost ashamed that he got the blue ribbon.
He knew that the pie could've been better if not for the simple
tapioca error. He didn't think it deserved a blue ribbon. The fact
that she gave him a blue ribbon just made him think that it was given
freely and without serious consideration of the quality of the product.
> They'd submit their stuff even if it wasn't being judged, though.
> It is
> the FUN of participating in that huge big splendid cornucopia of
> interesting displays that motivates them, not getting a ribbon.
>
> Too bad about a kid never wanting to do it again because OTHER kids
> got
> blue ribbons, though. That's a misunderstanding of the point of the
> whole thing, I think. It is putting far too much focus on the judging
> and ribbons and not on the joy and learning itself.
I really did not mean to say that he didn't want to do it again
because OTHER kids got blue ribbons! He, in fact, was quite proud of
the accomplishments of his clubmates. He is probably their biggest
cheerleader but he has no interest in participating in that aspect of
the fair for himself.
He'll bake a pie again, mostly because he loves to eat it! <g> He'll
bake a pie again because his family thinks that he bakes really yummy
pies and he enjoys our enjoyment of his pies. He won't ever bake a
pie to find out what some "expert" thinks of it.
>
> A couple of kids I know do a lot of sewing. They sew because they're
> loving to learn how - to make their own clothes - to WEAR the things
> they've made for themselves or see others wear things they've made for
> them. When fair time comes and they choose a couple of things to
> submit
> for display, I'm sure they hope to score well, but really it is such a
> tiny part of their participation in the whole program, it isn't a big
> deal at all.
>
> Same for those who grow vegetables and pick some to display. Same for
> those who raise animals. Same for those who learn cake decorating.
> Same
> for the photography project. The focus of their year is not on winning
> something at the fair - it is on the learning and fun and comradeship
> with others who have similar interests.
>
Ds is a pretty strong introvert. He prefers to spend the majority of
his time in quiet solitude reading books, playing RPG video games and
designing new RPG games to play with his few close friends. He gets
great satisfaction from working in the 4H garden raising produce to
donate to the local soup kitchens and food pantries. He takes his
role as vice-president fairly seriously and gently keeps a couple of
the younger members on task during our business meetings. He works
hard to contribute "miles" for our club fitness team that is
competing in a statewide physical fitness program. He also encourages
club members to contribute ideas for recreation activities and give
presentations. During the fair he will help "host" the 4H building
with his club mates. He'll help decorate the club booth. He'll even
enjoy browsing all of the exhibits. BUT, he has absolutely no
interest in doing 4H "projects" or submitting anything in the fair.
> The 4H building at the fair is really such a wonderful thing - I LOVE
> seeing all those blue ribbons! It is a sort of big joint
> celebration of
> all the hard work the kids did all year - and proof that 'hard work'
> can be pleasurable and learning IS pleasurable even when it is hard
> and
> that kids are drawn to learn, they don't have to be coerced into it.
I can see how it could be rewarding to many people. It just isn't
for my ds.
I'm not very good at writing clear posts and appreciate this
opportunity to clarify my points.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/11/2005 10:51:19 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:
but, when you write something, you want people to read it - I
mean, that IS the purpose.
============
When judges read something for the purposes of judging, that's not the kind
of reading I think most writers want. They're not reading it because it
appealed to them. They're reading it because they agreed to be judges and they
have to read what's entered.
And the statement disregards all the journal writing in the world, much of
which is not intended to be read. When my mom knew she was dying, she
destroyed her journals, all but one she wanted my brother to have, so she sealed it
up and it's still sealed up, at my sister's.
-=-They've gotten blue, red, and white ribbons, in the past, and they
pretty much all seemed like reasonable results - blue for the projects
that they did the most work on, red for the ones that they'd worked
less on, and white for the ones they threw together and didn't care as
much about.-=-
Sometimes something thrown together is remarkable.
Sometimes something someone worked for a long time on is just evidence that
they shouldn't have wasted so much time. Another of the dozens of attempted
and rejected factors for the arts and sciences competitions was a palceto
show how many hours a person spent on it. That was added specifically because
someone was hurt/offended because something that took her 120 hours or
something (blackwork embroidery) didn't get as high a score as something she
considered to be quickie, just a few hours.
At some point, though, the time spent goes negative, if the project doesn't
meet other criteria or totally misses the point (which is less likely to
happen in 4-H situations than with a supposed-to-be-pre-1600 fair).
-=-Same for those who grow vegetables and pick some to display. Same for
those who raise animals. Same for those who learn cake decorating. Same
for the photography project. The focus of their year is not on winning
something at the fair - it is on the learning and fun and comradeship
with others who have similar interests.-=-
That's way healthy. It's the kid who ONLY grew corn to enter one ear, never
grew corn before, never intends to grown corn again...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamsoroosh@... writes:
but, when you write something, you want people to read it - I
mean, that IS the purpose.
============
When judges read something for the purposes of judging, that's not the kind
of reading I think most writers want. They're not reading it because it
appealed to them. They're reading it because they agreed to be judges and they
have to read what's entered.
And the statement disregards all the journal writing in the world, much of
which is not intended to be read. When my mom knew she was dying, she
destroyed her journals, all but one she wanted my brother to have, so she sealed it
up and it's still sealed up, at my sister's.
-=-They've gotten blue, red, and white ribbons, in the past, and they
pretty much all seemed like reasonable results - blue for the projects
that they did the most work on, red for the ones that they'd worked
less on, and white for the ones they threw together and didn't care as
much about.-=-
Sometimes something thrown together is remarkable.
Sometimes something someone worked for a long time on is just evidence that
they shouldn't have wasted so much time. Another of the dozens of attempted
and rejected factors for the arts and sciences competitions was a palceto
show how many hours a person spent on it. That was added specifically because
someone was hurt/offended because something that took her 120 hours or
something (blackwork embroidery) didn't get as high a score as something she
considered to be quickie, just a few hours.
At some point, though, the time spent goes negative, if the project doesn't
meet other criteria or totally misses the point (which is less likely to
happen in 4-H situations than with a supposed-to-be-pre-1600 fair).
-=-Same for those who grow vegetables and pick some to display. Same for
those who raise animals. Same for those who learn cake decorating. Same
for the photography project. The focus of their year is not on winning
something at the fair - it is on the learning and fun and comradeship
with others who have similar interests.-=-
That's way healthy. It's the kid who ONLY grew corn to enter one ear, never
grew corn before, never intends to grown corn again...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/11/2005 5:22:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
Ds doesn't take criticism well, constructive or not. He really has
no interest in a stranger's opinions of his thoughts, efforts or
products and often has very little interest in my criticism. He
realized before he met with the judge that he'd made an error in the
amount of tapioca he'd put in and he told the judge.
===============================
When I read this, I thought really it was going to change direction after
this point:
-=-Ds doesn't take criticism well, constructive or not. He really has
no interest in a stranger's opinions of his thoughts, efforts or
products and often has very little interest in my criticism. He
realized before he met with the judge that he'd made an error...-=-
Tapioca was nothing at that point. The real error was a kid who doesn't
like criticism have any REASON to meet with a judge (outside a court of law).
If he had no interest in strangers' opinions, why WHY why on earth was he
entering a contest?
This time it is a real question.
If you already explained it, please explain this part again as briefly as
possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
Ds doesn't take criticism well, constructive or not. He really has
no interest in a stranger's opinions of his thoughts, efforts or
products and often has very little interest in my criticism. He
realized before he met with the judge that he'd made an error in the
amount of tapioca he'd put in and he told the judge.
===============================
When I read this, I thought really it was going to change direction after
this point:
-=-Ds doesn't take criticism well, constructive or not. He really has
no interest in a stranger's opinions of his thoughts, efforts or
products and often has very little interest in my criticism. He
realized before he met with the judge that he'd made an error...-=-
Tapioca was nothing at that point. The real error was a kid who doesn't
like criticism have any REASON to meet with a judge (outside a court of law).
If he had no interest in strangers' opinions, why WHY why on earth was he
entering a contest?
This time it is a real question.
If you already explained it, please explain this part again as briefly as
possible.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandrewmama
Yeah, I did explain it but I'll happily do it again.
Last summer we weren't RU'ing. I pressured him to enter SOMETHING in
the fair. It was our club's first year. Nobody, not even the other
leader nor myself, had any experience in 4H let alone 4H judging for
the county fair. I was a leader and he was an officer. I wanted him
to be an example for the other kids (along with the other leader's
officer kids) and give it a try. I pushed him to do it and he did.
I'm sorry I pushed him and he made sure I knew that he gained nothing
from the experience except knowing FOR SURE that he'd never want to
bother with it again.
Chris
Last summer we weren't RU'ing. I pressured him to enter SOMETHING in
the fair. It was our club's first year. Nobody, not even the other
leader nor myself, had any experience in 4H let alone 4H judging for
the county fair. I was a leader and he was an officer. I wanted him
to be an example for the other kids (along with the other leader's
officer kids) and give it a try. I pushed him to do it and he did.
I'm sorry I pushed him and he made sure I knew that he gained nothing
from the experience except knowing FOR SURE that he'd never want to
bother with it again.
Chris
On Jun 11, 2005, at 7:51 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> Tapioca was nothing at that point. The real error was a kid who
> doesn't
> like criticism have any REASON to meet with a judge (outside a
> court of law).
> If he had no interest in strangers' opinions, why WHY why on earth
> was he
> entering a contest?
>
> This time it is a real question.
> If you already explained it, please explain this part again as
> briefly as
> possible.
>
> Sandra
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/12/2005 2:26:56 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
This time it is a real question.
explanation, to the level of principle and priority.
Telling the whole story (general statement about anyone and anyone's general
stories) isn't the same as looking at it as objectively as possible and
trimming it down to its barest core. The germ of it.
I think it was putting the mother's needs ahead of the child's.
If that's not right, maybe it was belief that learning is external.
Maybe both.
But until it's put that barely, there's danger of recurrence.
This isn't about 4-H or about the original teller of that story, this is
about changing beliefs and practices. And it's about discussions on lists like
this, too, where we're after analysis in an unschooling light for the benefit
of anyone who reads it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
This time it is a real question.
> If you already explained it, please explain this part again asBy brief I meant distilled. Distilled into the smallest possible
> briefly as
> possible.
explanation, to the level of principle and priority.
Telling the whole story (general statement about anyone and anyone's general
stories) isn't the same as looking at it as objectively as possible and
trimming it down to its barest core. The germ of it.
I think it was putting the mother's needs ahead of the child's.
If that's not right, maybe it was belief that learning is external.
Maybe both.
But until it's put that barely, there's danger of recurrence.
This isn't about 4-H or about the original teller of that story, this is
about changing beliefs and practices. And it's about discussions on lists like
this, too, where we're after analysis in an unschooling light for the benefit
of anyone who reads it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandrewmama
Yes, it was what you said, "putting the mother's needs ahead of the
child's." Something that I've struggled with forever it seems.
Chris
child's." Something that I've struggled with forever it seems.
Chris
On Jun 12, 2005, at 8:51 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> I think it was putting the mother's needs ahead of the child's.
> If that's not right, maybe it was belief that learning is external.
> Maybe both.
> But until it's put that barely, there's danger of recurrence.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]