[AlwaysLearning] Honesty VS Politeness?
Nanci Kuykendall
>(Doesn't school specialize in removing people's will=----------------
>>to think, and in neutralizing any confidence or new
>>ideas they might've been about to vocalize?)
>The whole environment. You're right, the kids do itDo you find that if/when you express this to others
>to each other too. Teachers and tests and
>grade/age/course, they all do it.
they get angry at you? I am constantly biting my
tongue to keep from saying what I "really" think about
these issues. It's particularly difficult when people
are ranting (often) about their child's "idiot
teacher" or "horrible school problems" or how young
people today are immature, ignorant and thoughtless
and other such topics. I sometimes can't help but
interject, as politely as possible, that I feel school
to be if not the root of all social evils, certainly a
big slice of the pie. The shocked silence, sneering
and pronouncements which generally follow are hard to
take. It's usually the normal stuff about
socialization, lack of options, kids "needing" to be
away from parents and vice versa, how we can't lock
kids in closets at home just because...bla bla bla.
I guess you have to grow a thick skin to be passionate
about unschooling and let it show at all. I've been
passionate about it for close to 10 years now and I
think my skin is still too thin. How does one cope?
Nanci K.
Angela S.
<<<I've been
passionate about it for close to 10 years now and I
think my skin is still too thin. How does one cope?>>>
I am very passionate about unschooling too but I've also learned that most
people just don't want to hear about it. I think it just rocks their world
too much. I am happy and willing to share how it all works for us with
anyone who really wants to understand, but I've just stopped talking about
it with people who just want to bitch about school/their kids but not really
do anything about it. I also find that I can think of great examples and
explain unschooling well to people who are open to learning about it, but
when they are hostile, I clam up and can't say what I really mean. I feel
better about myself in those circumstances when I just don't bother to say
anything.
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
passionate about it for close to 10 years now and I
think my skin is still too thin. How does one cope?>>>
I am very passionate about unschooling too but I've also learned that most
people just don't want to hear about it. I think it just rocks their world
too much. I am happy and willing to share how it all works for us with
anyone who really wants to understand, but I've just stopped talking about
it with people who just want to bitch about school/their kids but not really
do anything about it. I also find that I can think of great examples and
explain unschooling well to people who are open to learning about it, but
when they are hostile, I clam up and can't say what I really mean. I feel
better about myself in those circumstances when I just don't bother to say
anything.
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/31/05 7:16:13 PM, aisliin@... writes:
<< Do you find that if/when you express this to others
they get angry at you? >>
No, but I don't express it very often to people who are still invested in
school.
I liked school, did well, went straight to college, graduated as quickly as I
could and taught immediately. I was invested bigtime, in those days. I
understand the perspective of being inside school so deeply that the entire
horizon is school-filled and school-related, and those things that can't be related
to school in any way recede into the dark and small edges of "not important"
or "ignorance."
-=It's particularly difficult when people
are ranting (often) about their child's "idiot
teacher" or "horrible school problems" or how young
people today are immature, ignorant and thoughtless
and other such topics. I sometimes can't help but
interject, as politely as possible, that I feel school
to be if not the root of all social evils, certainly a
big slice of the pie. -=-
Ah.
In such cases I say "You don't have to send them; you could homeschool."
If they sputter even a little bit, I can really calmly tell them it's been
great for my family.
It's really interesting now that lots of my friends from when we had babies
and toddlers together also have teens. Some of them were super-smug for a long
time, and some still are because their kids are on scholarship somewhere
(always in other states... hmmm...) but it's like leapfrog, because sometimes they
have a brag, and other times I do.
One friend from high school lives in a fancier state in a rich neighborhood
with a hot-shot husband, and her kids were like magically perfect for a long
time, but lately... bad stories andights stuff. But he lives in a house with
several other young males and they are wilder than she wishes, I think. And
the other sibling will have to make some serious life changes not to be seen as
a loss and a failure. So to that mom, I say nothing whatsoever.
-=-I guess you have to grow a thick skin to be passionate
about unschooling and let it show at all. I've been
passionate about it for close to 10 years now and I
think my skin is still too thin. How does one cope?-=-
Age helped me.
Not going to local playgroup meetings at all helped too. <g>
I just couldn't deal with new homeschoolers who weren't very nice to their
kids and wanted me to sympathize about how hard it is to make kids do work. I
just quit going altogether rather than pour my energy down a hole, as it seemed
sometimes.
Sandra
<< Do you find that if/when you express this to others
they get angry at you? >>
No, but I don't express it very often to people who are still invested in
school.
I liked school, did well, went straight to college, graduated as quickly as I
could and taught immediately. I was invested bigtime, in those days. I
understand the perspective of being inside school so deeply that the entire
horizon is school-filled and school-related, and those things that can't be related
to school in any way recede into the dark and small edges of "not important"
or "ignorance."
-=It's particularly difficult when people
are ranting (often) about their child's "idiot
teacher" or "horrible school problems" or how young
people today are immature, ignorant and thoughtless
and other such topics. I sometimes can't help but
interject, as politely as possible, that I feel school
to be if not the root of all social evils, certainly a
big slice of the pie. -=-
Ah.
In such cases I say "You don't have to send them; you could homeschool."
If they sputter even a little bit, I can really calmly tell them it's been
great for my family.
It's really interesting now that lots of my friends from when we had babies
and toddlers together also have teens. Some of them were super-smug for a long
time, and some still are because their kids are on scholarship somewhere
(always in other states... hmmm...) but it's like leapfrog, because sometimes they
have a brag, and other times I do.
One friend from high school lives in a fancier state in a rich neighborhood
with a hot-shot husband, and her kids were like magically perfect for a long
time, but lately... bad stories andights stuff. But he lives in a house with
several other young males and they are wilder than she wishes, I think. And
the other sibling will have to make some serious life changes not to be seen as
a loss and a failure. So to that mom, I say nothing whatsoever.
-=-I guess you have to grow a thick skin to be passionate
about unschooling and let it show at all. I've been
passionate about it for close to 10 years now and I
think my skin is still too thin. How does one cope?-=-
Age helped me.
Not going to local playgroup meetings at all helped too. <g>
I just couldn't deal with new homeschoolers who weren't very nice to their
kids and wanted me to sympathize about how hard it is to make kids do work. I
just quit going altogether rather than pour my energy down a hole, as it seemed
sometimes.
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
<<<< I guess you have to grow a thick skin to be passionate
about unschooling and let it show at all. I've been
passionate about it for close to 10 years now and I
think my skin is still too thin. How does one cope?>>>>
I personally don't do school-bashing conversations or how-to-get-them-to...
conversations with homeschoolers. I walk away and don't listen. This is for
my own peace of mind. If asked by schoolers, I say "we homeschool". I don't
do too much defending of it, but that may be partly because Jayn is so young
(5.5).
If someone is *genuinely* interested I will answer *genuine* questions, not
critical statements hidden as a question ("don't you think that...") with
passion and enthusiasm, and refer them to one of the two State wide
organizations here in CA (usually people are querying the legality in the
first instance) and my local group.
The only people who ask about Unschooling are in my local group. This falls
into two categories: people who don't know we Unschool and are asking what
materials or curriculum we use to teach something so generally get a short
explanation, and people who do know and are curious about a specific thing.
I am getting more - a lot more - of the latter as Jayn grows.
My dh has had more experience with outside people asking him about
Unschooling because he is more vocal, and in-your-face about how bad school
is, with the (mostly) men he chats to. A lot of his conversations are along
the lines of "do remember when you were at school and it was really
crappy..."
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.3 - Release Date: 5/31/2005
about unschooling and let it show at all. I've been
passionate about it for close to 10 years now and I
think my skin is still too thin. How does one cope?>>>>
I personally don't do school-bashing conversations or how-to-get-them-to...
conversations with homeschoolers. I walk away and don't listen. This is for
my own peace of mind. If asked by schoolers, I say "we homeschool". I don't
do too much defending of it, but that may be partly because Jayn is so young
(5.5).
If someone is *genuinely* interested I will answer *genuine* questions, not
critical statements hidden as a question ("don't you think that...") with
passion and enthusiasm, and refer them to one of the two State wide
organizations here in CA (usually people are querying the legality in the
first instance) and my local group.
The only people who ask about Unschooling are in my local group. This falls
into two categories: people who don't know we Unschool and are asking what
materials or curriculum we use to teach something so generally get a short
explanation, and people who do know and are curious about a specific thing.
I am getting more - a lot more - of the latter as Jayn grows.
My dh has had more experience with outside people asking him about
Unschooling because he is more vocal, and in-your-face about how bad school
is, with the (mostly) men he chats to. A lot of his conversations are along
the lines of "do remember when you were at school and it was really
crappy..."
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.3 - Release Date: 5/31/2005
Chris Swift
Hello
My name is Chris Swift. I live in Oxfordshire, England and I've just joined
this list.
I'm really pleased to see the comments in this thread.
Pleased to see that people share the same experiences as us but saddened by
most people's reaction to home education/schooling.
The only people , with rare exception, I've found to be genuinely interested
in home education when the subject is raised are teachers.
My partner works in educational literature so between us we meet quite a few
state teachers. Much as I dislike school I am growing more sympathetic to
teachers, every teacher we've mentioned it to has without exception said
something like 'great, individual attention, and you can't get anyone more
knowing about a child's needs, abilities and capabilities than their own
parents', they then quite often will go on about that they really would like
to more teaching, less handling of large disruptive classes and ticking
boxes set down by the educational authorities.
When people are suprised and express interest in Home Education I now
generally shut down, I know from experience almost certaintly what comes
next, how will they cope when they get out in the real world etc. How do you
do lessons, why don't you get a job ? etc. etc.
My partner is a lot more polite than me, she will patiently explain what
home education/ schooling is, and patiently counter all the arguments
against.
It is me at home with the kids and I really feel like saying, "It's not my
problem that you care that little about your children's education that you
haven't even considered Home Education/ Schooling, here's a book if you're
really interested."
I would get very cynical about it except that I know Home Education /
Schooling is increasing, perhaps we're just mixing with the wrong sort of
people !
Chris Swift
My name is Chris Swift. I live in Oxfordshire, England and I've just joined
this list.
I'm really pleased to see the comments in this thread.
Pleased to see that people share the same experiences as us but saddened by
most people's reaction to home education/schooling.
The only people , with rare exception, I've found to be genuinely interested
in home education when the subject is raised are teachers.
My partner works in educational literature so between us we meet quite a few
state teachers. Much as I dislike school I am growing more sympathetic to
teachers, every teacher we've mentioned it to has without exception said
something like 'great, individual attention, and you can't get anyone more
knowing about a child's needs, abilities and capabilities than their own
parents', they then quite often will go on about that they really would like
to more teaching, less handling of large disruptive classes and ticking
boxes set down by the educational authorities.
When people are suprised and express interest in Home Education I now
generally shut down, I know from experience almost certaintly what comes
next, how will they cope when they get out in the real world etc. How do you
do lessons, why don't you get a job ? etc. etc.
My partner is a lot more polite than me, she will patiently explain what
home education/ schooling is, and patiently counter all the arguments
against.
It is me at home with the kids and I really feel like saying, "It's not my
problem that you care that little about your children's education that you
haven't even considered Home Education/ Schooling, here's a book if you're
really interested."
I would get very cynical about it except that I know Home Education /
Schooling is increasing, perhaps we're just mixing with the wrong sort of
people !
Chris Swift
S.Waynforth
I think that there is a vast difference in home education in the UK
and that in the U.S. My experience may be colored by the fact that we
moved from Albuquerque, NM (where there are lots of homeschoolers and
unschoolers) to the Northeast of England (Durham) and not to somewhere
like Devon or Dorset or London, or for that matter, looking at the EO
contact list, Oxfordshire. So, maybe my experience in the U.S.
spoiled me for life in the north of England. Maybe by sheer
population density of homeschoolers I was able to find more
like-minded people in Albuquerque than I can find around here.
There are three groups of home-educator that I see up here: the first
and largest are the reactive home-educators. Those home-educators who
took their child out of school because they were bullied so badly that
the child became suicidal or whose child has a special needs issue
that the schools weren't adequately addressing. These families are
very interested in following a curriculum. Their reasons for pulling
out of school have nothing to do with the educational structure, but
with the deleterious social aspects for their own child. So, they
mimic the school structure: very carefully following some sort of
structured system. I know one family whose son is working more than
40 hours a week preparing for GCSE through some accelerated program
which means he has no time for much else in his life. The family's
stated priority is making sure that at 16 their son will be able to
get a job, or get into a college that will get him into a University
that will get him into a job.
The second type I know home-educate for religious reasons. Schools
have too much going on about evolution and don't prioritize family
over state. Again, this philosophy has nothing to do with throwing
off the bonds of curriculum based education. There are more
alternative approaches: the vicar's family who use a Charlotte Mason
approach and love to brag about how they have no television; the
Mormon mother who upon first meeting told me that she had an
unschooling lean to her approach, by which she meant that she would
allow her children to stay with a subject for longer than she had
planned if they were really interested, say hieroglyphics, and who
told me to shut-up once when I said that my children would be more
interested in playing with their friends than in being organized into
activities by their friends parents. But the discussions that I read
references to on the e-mail lists suggest that everyone wants to
compare their curriculum and their workbooks and their approaches to
numeracy and literacy whatever their alternative to the national
curriculum may be.
The third type is the truly alternative type. The people who are
choosing to home-educate because it fits in with their lifestyle
choices. They have nutritionists and holistic therapists and are
vegan, or wish they had the dedication to be, and insist that their
children be vegan as well. They have conversations about what kind of
blood type diet they should be on. As parents the key educational
lesson they seem to want to give is that sharing is the most important
thing. If any item is in question they will give it to someone not
their child as it is more important that they teach their child to
defer their own needs to someone else's than that they (the parent)
take the time to help the other child or their own to come up with a
compromise or some alternative play. In my experience the children
from these backgrounds are less socially adept, less sure of
themselves. If they get something that they really enjoy they hide it
and fight for it and hope that the argument stays quiet enough that
their parents don't notice and take away the coveted item. There is
egotism to this kind of home-education that the other two don't seem
to have as much of, a sense that home-education was less about helping
their child and more about adding to their alternative legitimacy,
like a tattoo or a tongue stud or whatever.
But these are all generalities and bitter generalities at that. I
find that there are people who are interested in our approach to
home-education. But they are more interested in Singapore Maths or in
discussing what Charlotte Mason meant by an enlightened education (or
whatever it is). Being religious or vegan or having a child who was
bullied isn't a predisposition to curriculum, but they are a different
philosophical approach to life that may not end up with unschooling.
They may not be philosophies that lead to questioning the status quo
enough to embrace the idea that learning is in everything and that
children are people and that it is at least as important to love and
listen to your own child as it is to get 5 A's at A-level or save a
whale or whatever. And they may not be philosophies that allow them
to ever prioritize their child's interests over their god's or over
that child's possible future or an animal's interests.
It is hard to look at a lifestyle that is by its very nature
oppositional to your own and stay calm. I don't talk about what we do
or don't do anymore. I am very rarely asked about it, and when I am
it is by people who already know what we do and may want to get me
going down some very entertaining rant. I'm good at rants. But, if I
start to talk about how much we enjoy television, or bring crisps and
candy to the group meet-ups, or talk about Tales of Symphonia it
becomes more and more threatening to their deeply entrenched beliefs
about food and television and leisure time activities.
and that in the U.S. My experience may be colored by the fact that we
moved from Albuquerque, NM (where there are lots of homeschoolers and
unschoolers) to the Northeast of England (Durham) and not to somewhere
like Devon or Dorset or London, or for that matter, looking at the EO
contact list, Oxfordshire. So, maybe my experience in the U.S.
spoiled me for life in the north of England. Maybe by sheer
population density of homeschoolers I was able to find more
like-minded people in Albuquerque than I can find around here.
There are three groups of home-educator that I see up here: the first
and largest are the reactive home-educators. Those home-educators who
took their child out of school because they were bullied so badly that
the child became suicidal or whose child has a special needs issue
that the schools weren't adequately addressing. These families are
very interested in following a curriculum. Their reasons for pulling
out of school have nothing to do with the educational structure, but
with the deleterious social aspects for their own child. So, they
mimic the school structure: very carefully following some sort of
structured system. I know one family whose son is working more than
40 hours a week preparing for GCSE through some accelerated program
which means he has no time for much else in his life. The family's
stated priority is making sure that at 16 their son will be able to
get a job, or get into a college that will get him into a University
that will get him into a job.
The second type I know home-educate for religious reasons. Schools
have too much going on about evolution and don't prioritize family
over state. Again, this philosophy has nothing to do with throwing
off the bonds of curriculum based education. There are more
alternative approaches: the vicar's family who use a Charlotte Mason
approach and love to brag about how they have no television; the
Mormon mother who upon first meeting told me that she had an
unschooling lean to her approach, by which she meant that she would
allow her children to stay with a subject for longer than she had
planned if they were really interested, say hieroglyphics, and who
told me to shut-up once when I said that my children would be more
interested in playing with their friends than in being organized into
activities by their friends parents. But the discussions that I read
references to on the e-mail lists suggest that everyone wants to
compare their curriculum and their workbooks and their approaches to
numeracy and literacy whatever their alternative to the national
curriculum may be.
The third type is the truly alternative type. The people who are
choosing to home-educate because it fits in with their lifestyle
choices. They have nutritionists and holistic therapists and are
vegan, or wish they had the dedication to be, and insist that their
children be vegan as well. They have conversations about what kind of
blood type diet they should be on. As parents the key educational
lesson they seem to want to give is that sharing is the most important
thing. If any item is in question they will give it to someone not
their child as it is more important that they teach their child to
defer their own needs to someone else's than that they (the parent)
take the time to help the other child or their own to come up with a
compromise or some alternative play. In my experience the children
from these backgrounds are less socially adept, less sure of
themselves. If they get something that they really enjoy they hide it
and fight for it and hope that the argument stays quiet enough that
their parents don't notice and take away the coveted item. There is
egotism to this kind of home-education that the other two don't seem
to have as much of, a sense that home-education was less about helping
their child and more about adding to their alternative legitimacy,
like a tattoo or a tongue stud or whatever.
But these are all generalities and bitter generalities at that. I
find that there are people who are interested in our approach to
home-education. But they are more interested in Singapore Maths or in
discussing what Charlotte Mason meant by an enlightened education (or
whatever it is). Being religious or vegan or having a child who was
bullied isn't a predisposition to curriculum, but they are a different
philosophical approach to life that may not end up with unschooling.
They may not be philosophies that lead to questioning the status quo
enough to embrace the idea that learning is in everything and that
children are people and that it is at least as important to love and
listen to your own child as it is to get 5 A's at A-level or save a
whale or whatever. And they may not be philosophies that allow them
to ever prioritize their child's interests over their god's or over
that child's possible future or an animal's interests.
It is hard to look at a lifestyle that is by its very nature
oppositional to your own and stay calm. I don't talk about what we do
or don't do anymore. I am very rarely asked about it, and when I am
it is by people who already know what we do and may want to get me
going down some very entertaining rant. I'm good at rants. But, if I
start to talk about how much we enjoy television, or bring crisps and
candy to the group meet-ups, or talk about Tales of Symphonia it
becomes more and more threatening to their deeply entrenched beliefs
about food and television and leisure time activities.
--- In [email protected], "Chris Swift" <Chris@c...> wrote:
> Hello
>
> My name is Chris Swift. I live in Oxfordshire, England and I've just
joined
> this list.
<snip>
> I would get very cynical about it except that I know Home Education /
> Schooling is increasing, perhaps we're just mixing with the wrong
sort of
> people !
>
> Chris Swift
[email protected]
I love the whole controlled rant, but especially these parts:
In a message dated 6/1/2005 8:37:47 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
s.waynforth@... writes:
-=-There is
egotism to this kind of home-education that the other two don't seem
to have as much of, a sense that home-education was less about helping
their child and more about adding to their alternative legitimacy,
like a tattoo or a tongue stud or whatever. -=-
============
I was at a conference like that once, where it seemed that the REALLY
important things were not the children themselves. It's rough, because sometimes
the parents are the really needy ones and they NEED other adults to approve
and endorse them, and will use their kids to get that approval. It's easy for
me to see that by working (and it IS work sometimes) to make sure my kids
have the space and time to be themselves and grow in the world in natural, calm,
non-jittery, non-frightened, non-wounded ways, it will help them NOT be the
kind of desperate parents who need popularity and strokes to feel alive or
right.
-=-And they may not be philosophies that allow them
to ever prioritize their child's interests over their god's or over
that child's possible future or an animal's interests. -=-
And if they perceive (or are told by their leaders) that it's in God's
interest, the animals' or the child's possible future's interest for the child to
STOP being homeschooled now, slam-o, there they'll go back into school.
-=- But, if I
start to talk about how much we enjoy television, or bring crisps and
candy to the group meet-ups, or talk about Tales of Symphonia it
becomes more and more threatening to their deeply entrenched beliefs
about food and television and leisure time activities.
-=-
Deeply entrenched, or just inflexible and not-to-be-examined?
Some of those beliefs I've seen that seem deeply entrenched in others turn
out to be like rent-a-center furniture. Looks good, but not really theirs,
and if they WERE to pay it off it would've cost way, way more than it was ever
worth.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In a message dated 6/1/2005 8:37:47 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
s.waynforth@... writes:
-=-There is
egotism to this kind of home-education that the other two don't seem
to have as much of, a sense that home-education was less about helping
their child and more about adding to their alternative legitimacy,
like a tattoo or a tongue stud or whatever. -=-
============
I was at a conference like that once, where it seemed that the REALLY
important things were not the children themselves. It's rough, because sometimes
the parents are the really needy ones and they NEED other adults to approve
and endorse them, and will use their kids to get that approval. It's easy for
me to see that by working (and it IS work sometimes) to make sure my kids
have the space and time to be themselves and grow in the world in natural, calm,
non-jittery, non-frightened, non-wounded ways, it will help them NOT be the
kind of desperate parents who need popularity and strokes to feel alive or
right.
-=-And they may not be philosophies that allow them
to ever prioritize their child's interests over their god's or over
that child's possible future or an animal's interests. -=-
And if they perceive (or are told by their leaders) that it's in God's
interest, the animals' or the child's possible future's interest for the child to
STOP being homeschooled now, slam-o, there they'll go back into school.
-=- But, if I
start to talk about how much we enjoy television, or bring crisps and
candy to the group meet-ups, or talk about Tales of Symphonia it
becomes more and more threatening to their deeply entrenched beliefs
about food and television and leisure time activities.
-=-
Deeply entrenched, or just inflexible and not-to-be-examined?
Some of those beliefs I've seen that seem deeply entrenched in others turn
out to be like rent-a-center furniture. Looks good, but not really theirs,
and if they WERE to pay it off it would've cost way, way more than it was ever
worth.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dana Burdick
>> I am very rarely asked about it, and when I amit is by people who already know what we do and may want to get me
going down some very entertaining rant.
>>When we first started homeschooling, I would get questions from store clerks
and the like when we were out during school hours. Now, I never seem to get
any questions from anybody. I think much is communicated in people's body
language and general attitude. When we first started I was vulnerable and
was subconsciously inviting folks to ask me questions. I seemed to say, "Go
ahead and ask your toughest Homeschool question. I got my 60 second stories
and by goodness I'm going to use them."
Now when I do get the occasional inquiry, I usually am genuinely excited
about what any one of our family members is engaged in at the moment that we
get off the subject of homeschooling/unschooling per say and are on to
discussing our specific interests. I find that this accomplishes a few
things at once: It allows them to implicitly make their own conclusions
about unschooling without right out telling them, it makes them feel good,
and finally, it makes me feel good. Mind you, I don't always respond this
way. Some days, I say to heck with it and pour out my point on the matter
of school (usually when I have heard about a recent suicide or something.)
Those are bad days and I'm sure with age and maturity I will find a more
graceful way of handling this.
-Dana
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nanci Kuykendall
I am on digest so this is a multiple reply to two
messages.
<< Do you find that if/when you express this to others
they get angry at you? >>
is that I am somewhat autistic (Aspergers if you
really need a label) and I have a hard time "reading"
people's sincerity level or underlying motives or
unspoken messages. I also have a hard time knowing
how much is too much information in diffrent setings
and how much is not enough. I tend to just share
what's in my heart and mind in a passionate way and as
politely as I can, and this leads me into trouble
sometimes. It's mainly a big hairy scary mess for me
to navigate conversations with near strangers or
acquaitances.
things. Here I have been feeling guilty (well, sort
of, a teensy bit) because I am not much of a joiner
and avoid local playgroups and other more organized
groups (like Campfire and so forth.) Not only does
socializing en masse look REALLY unattractive to me,
but neither of my kids, nor my husband is the least
bit interested in it either. We'd much rather do
things with small groups of real friends, one or two
families, etc.
those things 6 or so years ago as well. It gets
lonely though. We're fairly new to a huge and
sparsely populated rural county and when you add
unschooling and autism to the plate (my oldest is
autistic as well) it's really hard to find anyone to
talk to honestly at all.
homeschool because my older son has "special needs"
including some life threatening allergies. We really
don't. I knew I was going to unschool before they
were born, some 15 years ago. I have just been more
passionate about it for about 10 years (since I have
had kids.) It's easier though, with people who really
don't care, who are entrenched and invested, as Sandra
described, or who just don't get it. I can't always
determine who those folks are for a while though, and
sometimes I just automatically correct their mistaken
assumption by reflex, or because it feels dishonest to
me to let them labor under delusions. But really,
they are THEIR delusions, not mine. I didn't create
them or fuel them so I guess I should not be so
selfish about letting them have them.
Nanci K.
messages.
<< Do you find that if/when you express this to others
they get angry at you? >>
>No, but I don't express it very often to people whoI try to do that as well. I guess part of my problem
>are still invested in school.
is that I am somewhat autistic (Aspergers if you
really need a label) and I have a hard time "reading"
people's sincerity level or underlying motives or
unspoken messages. I also have a hard time knowing
how much is too much information in diffrent setings
and how much is not enough. I tend to just share
what's in my heart and mind in a passionate way and as
politely as I can, and this leads me into trouble
sometimes. It's mainly a big hairy scary mess for me
to navigate conversations with near strangers or
acquaitances.
>Age helped me.LOL, ok so now I feel better about not going to those
>Not going to local playgroup meetings at all helped
>too. <g>
things. Here I have been feeling guilty (well, sort
of, a teensy bit) because I am not much of a joiner
and avoid local playgroups and other more organized
groups (like Campfire and so forth.) Not only does
socializing en masse look REALLY unattractive to me,
but neither of my kids, nor my husband is the least
bit interested in it either. We'd much rather do
things with small groups of real friends, one or two
families, etc.
> I just quit going altogether rather than pour myBoy I hear that. That's why I mostly stopped doing
>energy down a hole, as it seemed sometimes.
>Sandra
those things 6 or so years ago as well. It gets
lonely though. We're fairly new to a huge and
sparsely populated rural county and when you add
unschooling and autism to the plate (my oldest is
autistic as well) it's really hard to find anyone to
talk to honestly at all.
>I personally don't do school-bashing conversationsI admit to allowing people to believe that we
>or how-to-get-them-to...conversations with
>homeschoolers. I walk away and don't listen. This is
>for my own peace of mind. If asked by schoolers, I
>say "we homeschool". I don't do too much defending
>of it, but that may be partly because Jayn is so
>young
>(5.5).
>Robyn L. Coburn
homeschool because my older son has "special needs"
including some life threatening allergies. We really
don't. I knew I was going to unschool before they
were born, some 15 years ago. I have just been more
passionate about it for about 10 years (since I have
had kids.) It's easier though, with people who really
don't care, who are entrenched and invested, as Sandra
described, or who just don't get it. I can't always
determine who those folks are for a while though, and
sometimes I just automatically correct their mistaken
assumption by reflex, or because it feels dishonest to
me to let them labor under delusions. But really,
they are THEIR delusions, not mine. I didn't create
them or fuel them so I guess I should not be so
selfish about letting them have them.
Nanci K.
Jo
"I just couldn't deal with new homeschoolers who weren't very nice to
their
kids and wanted me to sympathize about how hard it is to make kids do
work. "
I keep running into people who give their kids grades. ???!!!! I kind
of don't see the point of homeschooling if you are just going to give
grades and homework.
Jo
their
kids and wanted me to sympathize about how hard it is to make kids do
work. "
I keep running into people who give their kids grades. ???!!!! I kind
of don't see the point of homeschooling if you are just going to give
grades and homework.
Jo
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/1/05 9:04:19 PM, aisliin@... writes:
<< I can't always
determine who those folks are for a while though, and
sometimes I just automatically correct their mistaken
assumption by reflex, or because it feels dishonest to
me to let them labor under delusions. But really,
they are THEIR delusions, not mine. >>
Right, about letting it go a lot of times--me too.
If someone is really happy in the conversation and they think we "work hard"
and the kids are probably ahead of grade level, and they're joyous in that
moment, I usually make one small disclaimer, like "It's not so hard the way we
do it," or "the main thing is we really like each other," and let all the rest
go, especially if it's someone I'll never see again.
Now if the someone I'll never see again is at a homeschooling convention of
any sort (general or unschooling, I mean, as I don't go to other sorts <g>),
they get to hear more because, well, there they are in the range of having come
a long way to be in a specific place to commune with general homeschoolers or
unschoolers, and then I'm openly honest and detailed if they seem to be
harboring delusions.
Sandra
<< I can't always
determine who those folks are for a while though, and
sometimes I just automatically correct their mistaken
assumption by reflex, or because it feels dishonest to
me to let them labor under delusions. But really,
they are THEIR delusions, not mine. >>
Right, about letting it go a lot of times--me too.
If someone is really happy in the conversation and they think we "work hard"
and the kids are probably ahead of grade level, and they're joyous in that
moment, I usually make one small disclaimer, like "It's not so hard the way we
do it," or "the main thing is we really like each other," and let all the rest
go, especially if it's someone I'll never see again.
Now if the someone I'll never see again is at a homeschooling convention of
any sort (general or unschooling, I mean, as I don't go to other sorts <g>),
they get to hear more because, well, there they are in the range of having come
a long way to be in a specific place to commune with general homeschoolers or
unschoolers, and then I'm openly honest and detailed if they seem to be
harboring delusions.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/2/05 2:55:31 AM, DanaBurdick@... writes:
<< Some days, I say to heck with it and pour out my point on the matter
of school (usually when I have heard about a recent suicide or something.)
Those are bad days and I'm sure with age and maturity I will find a more
graceful way of handling this. >>
Sometimes grace is not called for.
If someone's on her fourth "yeah, but" and they're defending the
indefensible, you just have to honk her nose.
I have regularly and with good result used stories of two suicides among my
own friends when people say anything about school being safe or about the light
frolick and banter among happy schoolmates (idealized wishes and hopes about
how nice and innocent kids are at school), so I've never had to wait for
another school shooting to get a boost on that one.
Those suicides come out sometimes when someone is saying, "Well my kids just
have to do what I tell them to do, they don't have any choice." AHA... the
big choice. "Outahere." They do have a choice, and parents and other kids
CAN go too far.
Sandra
<< Some days, I say to heck with it and pour out my point on the matter
of school (usually when I have heard about a recent suicide or something.)
Those are bad days and I'm sure with age and maturity I will find a more
graceful way of handling this. >>
Sometimes grace is not called for.
If someone's on her fourth "yeah, but" and they're defending the
indefensible, you just have to honk her nose.
I have regularly and with good result used stories of two suicides among my
own friends when people say anything about school being safe or about the light
frolick and banter among happy schoolmates (idealized wishes and hopes about
how nice and innocent kids are at school), so I've never had to wait for
another school shooting to get a boost on that one.
Those suicides come out sometimes when someone is saying, "Well my kids just
have to do what I tell them to do, they don't have any choice." AHA... the
big choice. "Outahere." They do have a choice, and parents and other kids
CAN go too far.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/2/05 2:55:57 AM, wildflowerpowerwoman@... writes:
<< I keep running into people who give their kids grades. ???!!!! I kind
of don't see the point of homeschooling if you are just going to give
grades and homework. >>
Well, the parents are having fun, and in most people's universes, that's
what's important.
As part of a description for a talk at a conference (for which they had at
first scheduled no presenter, just figured someone would fill in, because
hey--it's only unschooling) this was written:
"If you are an
unschooler, or interested in becoming one, join this audience
participation forum and meet others who unschool too. Share what's
working and what isn't. Can you really be an unschooler if [fill in the
blanks]? And does it matter, if it's working for you? Do unschoolers
ever tell their children to do something? Find out!"
So clearly the "unschoolers" they're talking about are adults (do they ever
tell their children to do something?) and so in the "does it matter, if it's
working for you?" the "YOU" for whom it might be working just fine is clearly
the parent. Is it not working for the children? Too bad. They have no choice.
It's quite a simple concept, and harder to pull off than it looks.
Sandra
<< I keep running into people who give their kids grades. ???!!!! I kind
of don't see the point of homeschooling if you are just going to give
grades and homework. >>
Well, the parents are having fun, and in most people's universes, that's
what's important.
As part of a description for a talk at a conference (for which they had at
first scheduled no presenter, just figured someone would fill in, because
hey--it's only unschooling) this was written:
"If you are an
unschooler, or interested in becoming one, join this audience
participation forum and meet others who unschool too. Share what's
working and what isn't. Can you really be an unschooler if [fill in the
blanks]? And does it matter, if it's working for you? Do unschoolers
ever tell their children to do something? Find out!"
So clearly the "unschoolers" they're talking about are adults (do they ever
tell their children to do something?) and so in the "does it matter, if it's
working for you?" the "YOU" for whom it might be working just fine is clearly
the parent. Is it not working for the children? Too bad. They have no choice.
It's quite a simple concept, and harder to pull off than it looks.
Sandra
Michelle Billett
Yeah, I've even heard of people who assign their kids a "topic" and have them do a report on it. I couldn't stand that when I was in school, I'm certainly not going to insist my kids do it at home!
Michelle
Michelle
----- Original Message -----
From: Jo
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:25 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Honesty VS Politeness?
I keep running into people who give their kids grades. ???!!!! I kind of don't see the point of homeschooling if you are just going to give grades and homework.
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Michelle Billett
I have a confession to make, along the same lines as this conversation. People (mostly public school parents) have asked me lately if we are "done" with school for the year. I have answered that we keep going through the summer.
I haven't felt completely honest about that answer, though. But then I think of the alternative, i.e. getting into a long explanation, and probably argument, with them. So, I think this is really the best answer. For them, anyway. It has basically ended the conversation, and they've gone away happy. They really didn't want the long answer, anyway. They were just making conversation with me.
I'm glad to know now that I'm not the only one who just gives the "short answer" sometimes.
Michelle
I haven't felt completely honest about that answer, though. But then I think of the alternative, i.e. getting into a long explanation, and probably argument, with them. So, I think this is really the best answer. For them, anyway. It has basically ended the conversation, and they've gone away happy. They really didn't want the long answer, anyway. They were just making conversation with me.
I'm glad to know now that I'm not the only one who just gives the "short answer" sometimes.
Michelle
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Honesty VS Politeness?
Right, about letting it go a lot of times--me too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jordan
I�ve told this on another list, so if you�ve heard it, ignore it. My
school-at-home neighbor said this to me about her oldest who has just turned
7, or maybe just turned 6�I forget: �he�s reading �Island of the Blue
Dolphins� and I�m making him draw a picture and writ a sentence about each
chapter, but he resists. He just wants to keep reading, and I�m not sure
what to do about it.� Ummm�. Gee, I don�t know? DUH!
Tami, who has become quite good at nodding and saying hmm�these days.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Michelle Billett
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Honesty VS Politeness?
Yeah, I've even heard of people who assign their kids a "topic" and have
them do a report on it. I couldn't stand that when I was in school, I'm
certainly not going to insist my kids do it at home!
Michelle
school-at-home neighbor said this to me about her oldest who has just turned
7, or maybe just turned 6�I forget: �he�s reading �Island of the Blue
Dolphins� and I�m making him draw a picture and writ a sentence about each
chapter, but he resists. He just wants to keep reading, and I�m not sure
what to do about it.� Ummm�. Gee, I don�t know? DUH!
Tami, who has become quite good at nodding and saying hmm�these days.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Michelle Billett
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Honesty VS Politeness?
Yeah, I've even heard of people who assign their kids a "topic" and have
them do a report on it. I couldn't stand that when I was in school, I'm
certainly not going to insist my kids do it at home!
Michelle
----- Original Message -----
From: Jo
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 11:25 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Honesty VS Politeness?
I keep running into people who give their kids grades. ???!!!! I kind of
don't see the point of homeschooling if you are just going to give grades
and homework.
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.5.1 - Release Date: 6/2/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mara Winders
I live in a fairly homeschool-friendly place, but there are few
unschoolers. I rarely get questioned about homeschooling. I imagine
when people see me out with the kids during the day, they just assume
that we are homeschoolers. Many of my fellow homeschoolers are on a
local unschooling list (it's eclectic, really, but called an unschooling
group) and read the bunches of articles and info that I send to the
list. I guess they know what unschooling is about, and they just don't ask.
There are times when I get questions, or my children get questions. The
most often asked is "what grade are you in?" We have two answers to
this one...."well, I'm ____yo so if I were in school I would be in
____grade." And the simpler and more correct "We don't do grades."
When I have to fill out forms for the kids and their grade is asked, I
always leave it blank. I still haven't figured out why this is such an
important questions that so many people ask it.
Another one that comes up often is "do you use a curriculum?" My answer
here is "No, we use the library, the internet, the tv, and we play games
a lot." I suppose it's not really a direct answer, but technically,
it's what we would claim if we were ever questioned by authorities.
When I'm asked if we take a break for the summer, I smile and say "We
are learning all the time!"
I love when I get questioned. People who have problems with the concept
aren't going to change my mind or threaten me, and who knows if I might
plant a seed somewhere?
And I'd like to chime in with a "me too" on the timer necessity. It's
nice to know I'm not alone. It boggles my mind how I could spend an
hour preparing something only to forget it was even in the oven.
Mara
Michelle Billett wrote:
unschoolers. I rarely get questioned about homeschooling. I imagine
when people see me out with the kids during the day, they just assume
that we are homeschoolers. Many of my fellow homeschoolers are on a
local unschooling list (it's eclectic, really, but called an unschooling
group) and read the bunches of articles and info that I send to the
list. I guess they know what unschooling is about, and they just don't ask.
There are times when I get questions, or my children get questions. The
most often asked is "what grade are you in?" We have two answers to
this one...."well, I'm ____yo so if I were in school I would be in
____grade." And the simpler and more correct "We don't do grades."
When I have to fill out forms for the kids and their grade is asked, I
always leave it blank. I still haven't figured out why this is such an
important questions that so many people ask it.
Another one that comes up often is "do you use a curriculum?" My answer
here is "No, we use the library, the internet, the tv, and we play games
a lot." I suppose it's not really a direct answer, but technically,
it's what we would claim if we were ever questioned by authorities.
When I'm asked if we take a break for the summer, I smile and say "We
are learning all the time!"
I love when I get questioned. People who have problems with the concept
aren't going to change my mind or threaten me, and who knows if I might
plant a seed somewhere?
And I'd like to chime in with a "me too" on the timer necessity. It's
nice to know I'm not alone. It boggles my mind how I could spend an
hour preparing something only to forget it was even in the oven.
Mara
Michelle Billett wrote:
> I have a confession to make, along the same lines as this[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> conversation. People (mostly public school parents) have asked me
> lately if we are "done" with school for the year. I have answered that
> we keep going through the summer.
>
> I haven't felt completely honest about that answer, though. But then I
> think of the alternative, i.e. getting into a long explanation, and
> probably argument, with them. So, I think this is really the best
> answer. For them, anyway. It has basically ended the conversation, and
> they've gone away happy. They really didn't want the long answer,
> anyway. They were just making conversation with me.
>
> I'm glad to know now that I'm not the only one who just gives the
> "short answer" sometimes.
>
> Michelle
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: SandraDodd@...
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 8:25 AM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Honesty VS Politeness?
>
>
>
> Right, about letting it go a lot of times--me too.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
Angela S.
<<<If someone is really happy in the conversation and they think we "work
hard"
and the kids are probably ahead of grade level, and they're joyous in that
moment, I usually make one small disclaimer, like "It's not so hard the way
we
do it," or "the main thing is we really like each other," and let all the
rest
go, especially if it's someone I'll never see again.>>>
I had my car inspected yesterday and we were talking with the really nice
mechanic. He said to the kids, "I'll bet you can't wait to be on school
vacation!" And my youngest (8 but is small for her age) said, "We don't go
to school." (kids are 8 and 10) And he thinking maybe they weren't old
enough yet said, "When will you go to school?" And she said, "never." LOL!
And so I stepped in and said, "We homeschool." And he said, "Oh, so you do
do school. (and with a little awe in his voice for my dedication and
perseverance added) Gee, you not only stay home with your kids but you also
teach them as well. You are one busy lady!" I chuckled and said, "sortof
kindof." And I let it go at that and the conversation moved on. I really
wanted to add that life it pretty easy and enjoyable for us. We ride our
horse all the time and hang out at the barn and yesterday we sat in our new
soft sided (cheap but wonderful) pool and watched the school buses drive by.
It was so beautiful out and we felt so grateful sitting there feeling the
coolness of the water after being in the hot sun at the barn. People
envision that it takes a lot of dedication and hard work to homeschool. If
they only knew how thoroughly enjoyable and easy it is for us, they would
probably die. But it's so hard to explain in 5 minutes how it all works, so
I don't usually bother anymore.
Angela
* game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hard"
and the kids are probably ahead of grade level, and they're joyous in that
moment, I usually make one small disclaimer, like "It's not so hard the way
we
do it," or "the main thing is we really like each other," and let all the
rest
go, especially if it's someone I'll never see again.>>>
I had my car inspected yesterday and we were talking with the really nice
mechanic. He said to the kids, "I'll bet you can't wait to be on school
vacation!" And my youngest (8 but is small for her age) said, "We don't go
to school." (kids are 8 and 10) And he thinking maybe they weren't old
enough yet said, "When will you go to school?" And she said, "never." LOL!
And so I stepped in and said, "We homeschool." And he said, "Oh, so you do
do school. (and with a little awe in his voice for my dedication and
perseverance added) Gee, you not only stay home with your kids but you also
teach them as well. You are one busy lady!" I chuckled and said, "sortof
kindof." And I let it go at that and the conversation moved on. I really
wanted to add that life it pretty easy and enjoyable for us. We ride our
horse all the time and hang out at the barn and yesterday we sat in our new
soft sided (cheap but wonderful) pool and watched the school buses drive by.
It was so beautiful out and we felt so grateful sitting there feeling the
coolness of the water after being in the hot sun at the barn. People
envision that it takes a lot of dedication and hard work to homeschool. If
they only knew how thoroughly enjoyable and easy it is for us, they would
probably die. But it's so hard to explain in 5 minutes how it all works, so
I don't usually bother anymore.
Angela
* game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Mara Winders <mara@...>
There are times when I get questions, or my children get questions.
The
most often asked is "what grade are you in?" We have two answers to
this one...."well, I'm ____yo so if I were in school I would be in
____grade." And the simpler and more correct "We don't do grades."
When I have to fill out forms for the kids and their grade is asked, I
always leave it blank. I still haven't figured out why this is such an
important questions that so many people ask it.
-=-=-=-
In case you haven't heard: we say, "Grades are for meat and eggs, not
children."
-=-=-=-=-
Another one that comes up often is "do you use a curriculum?" My
answer
here is "No, we use the library, the internet, the tv, and we play
games
a lot." I suppose it's not really a direct answer, but technically,
it's what we would claim if we were ever questioned by authorities.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I was recently asked what my children DO.
I went on and on and on about Cameron (17) and his filming and drumming
and music and art---and his new love of histories and words and other
things.
Then this woman asked what Duncan (9) was into. I stopped short,
knowing that it wasn't as inspiring as Cameron's interests. But I still
gabbed on, saying that Duncan was into video games and word games and
computer games and board games and card games and paper games and math
games and water/pool games.
I had this sudden realization that Duncan learns through GAMES! And
WHAT A WAY TO LEARN!!!! How COOL to think that learning is SO much fun!
I got his huge smile on my face as I got this.
I think it is so incredibly neat that he has this opportunity---and
that he finds his learning that way!
That's Dunc's "curriculum"---games! <g>
~Kelly
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Mara Winders <mara@...>
There are times when I get questions, or my children get questions.
The
most often asked is "what grade are you in?" We have two answers to
this one...."well, I'm ____yo so if I were in school I would be in
____grade." And the simpler and more correct "We don't do grades."
When I have to fill out forms for the kids and their grade is asked, I
always leave it blank. I still haven't figured out why this is such an
important questions that so many people ask it.
-=-=-=-
In case you haven't heard: we say, "Grades are for meat and eggs, not
children."
-=-=-=-=-
Another one that comes up often is "do you use a curriculum?" My
answer
here is "No, we use the library, the internet, the tv, and we play
games
a lot." I suppose it's not really a direct answer, but technically,
it's what we would claim if we were ever questioned by authorities.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I was recently asked what my children DO.
I went on and on and on about Cameron (17) and his filming and drumming
and music and art---and his new love of histories and words and other
things.
Then this woman asked what Duncan (9) was into. I stopped short,
knowing that it wasn't as inspiring as Cameron's interests. But I still
gabbed on, saying that Duncan was into video games and word games and
computer games and board games and card games and paper games and math
games and water/pool games.
I had this sudden realization that Duncan learns through GAMES! And
WHAT A WAY TO LEARN!!!! How COOL to think that learning is SO much fun!
I got his huge smile on my face as I got this.
I think it is so incredibly neat that he has this opportunity---and
that he finds his learning that way!
That's Dunc's "curriculum"---games! <g>
~Kelly
Michelle Billett
Angela,
I remember you from another unschooling list. I was just thinking about you, your girls, and your horse <g> the other day. I was wondering how you were, since I haven't been on that list in a while. Now I know you're doing very well. :)
Michelle
I really wanted to add that life it pretty easy and enjoyable for us. We ride our
horse all the time and hang out at the barn and yesterday we sat in our new soft sided (cheap but wonderful) pool and watched the school buses drive by. It was so beautiful out and we felt so grateful sitting there feeling the coolness of the water after being in the hot sun at the barn. People envision that it takes a lot of dedication and hard work to homeschool. If they only knew how thoroughly enjoyable and easy it is for us, they would probably die. But it's so hard to explain in 5 minutes how it all works, so I don't usually bother anymore. Angela
game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I remember you from another unschooling list. I was just thinking about you, your girls, and your horse <g> the other day. I was wondering how you were, since I haven't been on that list in a while. Now I know you're doing very well. :)
Michelle
I really wanted to add that life it pretty easy and enjoyable for us. We ride our
horse all the time and hang out at the barn and yesterday we sat in our new soft sided (cheap but wonderful) pool and watched the school buses drive by. It was so beautiful out and we felt so grateful sitting there feeling the coolness of the water after being in the hot sun at the barn. People envision that it takes a lot of dedication and hard work to homeschool. If they only knew how thoroughly enjoyable and easy it is for us, they would probably die. But it's so hard to explain in 5 minutes how it all works, so I don't usually bother anymore. Angela
game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Tellew
>*****I've said, "Well, we never start and we're never done."
>I have a confession to make, along the same lines as this conversation.
>People (mostly public school parents) have asked me lately if we are
>"done" with school for the year. I have answered that we keep going
>through the summer.*****
Pam
Elizabeth Hill
**
I have a confession to make, along the same lines as this conversation. People (mostly public school parents) have asked me lately if we are "done" with school for the year. I have answered that we keep going through the summer.**
I might say "We learn all year, at a relaxed pace." (Then anyone who sees my seeming idleness during the "school year" might feel less justified in busting me for laxness.)
Betsy
I have a confession to make, along the same lines as this conversation. People (mostly public school parents) have asked me lately if we are "done" with school for the year. I have answered that we keep going through the summer.**
I might say "We learn all year, at a relaxed pace." (Then anyone who sees my seeming idleness during the "school year" might feel less justified in busting me for laxness.)
Betsy
Mara Winders
>No, I hadn't heard this before. I'd appreciate hearing what kind of
> -=-=-=-
>
> In case you haven't heard: we say, "Grades are for meat and eggs, not
> children."
>
> -=-=-=-=-
reaction you generally get from this statement.
>LOL Early on, I planned on using lots of games with my children for
>
> I had this sudden realization that Duncan learns through GAMES! And
> WHAT A WAY TO LEARN!!!! How COOL to think that learning is SO much fun!
> I got his huge smile on my face as I got this.
>
> I think it is so incredibly neat that he has this opportunity---and
> that he finds his learning that way!
>
> That's Dunc's "curriculum"---games! <g>
>
> ~Kelly
their learning. I thought this would be a great way to "get them" to
learn things, and in addition, I find learning games a whole lot less
boring to play than other games intended for children. Before I planned
on home/unschooling, I bought games with the intention of helping my
children excel and be know-it-alls once they got to school. They would
already know how to read, how to add and subtract, etc... Boy did I get
an education! LOL
They did learn from games - they just didn't learn the things I thought
they'd learn from the games I bought. For example, Scrabble Jr. was to
have my eldest spelling and reading, but instead it helped my second and
third (in different ways, 3 years apart) learn every letter of the
alphabet. It amazed me to watch how they both used that game when they
wanted to learn their letters. Zane (my second) used it playing with
his brother, doing what they do best, trading and "coniving", which is
not really part of the game. Every time a letter was traded (I'll trade
you a T for a B), it reinforced the names of the letters. McKenna, my
third, played mostly independently, simply matching the letters to to
board and when she wasn't sure of one, she would ask. Over the course
of a week in which she played every day, she became sure of every
letter, the game was put away and hasn't been brought out again since.
So now, I hope, I realize that they will find games to help them learn
what they want to learn, when they want to learn it, and I don't have
ulterior motives when I buy a game anymore.
Pam, I was really tempted to buy those mythological card games though.
Would my children really *finally* learn their times tables? I couldn't
help but see it as manipulative of me - here's a really cool card game
guys, but guess what? in order to figure out who has a higher power, you
have to MULTIPLY! I can already see them with their sharpies and their
calculators....crossing out the multiplication question and writing the
number instead. LOL
Games are great, and much prefered to workbooks around here.
Unfortunately, baby sisters don't like to stay away from games that are
being played, and she doesn't much like mom sitting and playing them
either. My kids took to playing on the top bunk to stay away from her,
but all that did was give her motivation to learn how to climb. :-0
Mara
Mara
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/5/2005 7:31:29 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
mara@... writes:
So now, I hope, I realize that they will find games to help them learn
what they want to learn, when they want to learn it,
================
They will probably learn things without knowing they wanted to learn them,
and what they learn will be gradually built upon what they know. They won't
find games to help them learn. They'll play games for the games' sake, and
learning will happen as breathing happens, when you stop looking so hard.
Computer games or video games are a good way to go while babies are
game-disruptors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mara@... writes:
So now, I hope, I realize that they will find games to help them learn
what they want to learn, when they want to learn it,
================
They will probably learn things without knowing they wanted to learn them,
and what they learn will be gradually built upon what they know. They won't
find games to help them learn. They'll play games for the games' sake, and
learning will happen as breathing happens, when you stop looking so hard.
Computer games or video games are a good way to go while babies are
game-disruptors.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mara Winders
SandraDodd@... wrote:
intend to learn something. It's rare that they choose a game in order
to learn something other than how to play the game better! Naturally,
play and learning go hand in hand. The more intelligent a species, the
more they play. Not looking so hard anymore, simply enjoying the view.
Nintendo DS and a bunch of games. Now the problem is where to play
that. At least they can easily pause their game and move somewhere
else, but it doesn't stop the poor dear from following them around while
crying her heart out. Does anyone have experience with how sturdy these
units are? Can they withstand the hands of an 18 mo? Will they survive
being dropped, or maybe being used as a hammer?
Mara
>Yes, Sandra, they play games because they are fun, not because they
> In a message dated 6/5/2005 7:31:29 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> mara@... writes:
>
> So now, I hope, I realize that they will find games to help them learn
> what they want to learn, when they want to learn it,
>
>
> ================
>
> They will probably learn things without knowing they wanted to learn
> them,
> and what they learn will be gradually built upon what they know.
> They won't
> find games to help them learn. They'll play games for the games'
> sake, and
> learning will happen as breathing happens, when you stop looking so hard.
intend to learn something. It's rare that they choose a game in order
to learn something other than how to play the game better! Naturally,
play and learning go hand in hand. The more intelligent a species, the
more they play. Not looking so hard anymore, simply enjoying the view.
>Thanks for the suggestion. Last week I bought them each their own
>
> Computer games or video games are a good way to go while babies are
> game-disruptors.
Nintendo DS and a bunch of games. Now the problem is where to play
that. At least they can easily pause their game and move somewhere
else, but it doesn't stop the poor dear from following them around while
crying her heart out. Does anyone have experience with how sturdy these
units are? Can they withstand the hands of an 18 mo? Will they survive
being dropped, or maybe being used as a hammer?
Mara
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Jun 5, 2005, at 8:38 AM, Mara Winders wrote:
Mine were specifically wanting to become quicker at multiplying - so we
got the game FOR that purpose, as a fun way to speed up. So - it wasn't
me sneaking it past them. They are 14 and 17 and each have their
reasons for wanting to speed up, not have to stop and figure out
answers.
-pam
> Pam, I was really tempted to buy those mythological card games though.That's funny. <G>
> Would my children really *finally* learn their times tables? I
> couldn't
> help but see it as manipulative of me - here's a really cool card game
> guys, but guess what? in order to figure out who has a higher power,
> you
> have to MULTIPLY! I can already see them with their sharpies and their
> calculators....crossing out the multiplication question and writing the
> number instead. LOL
Mine were specifically wanting to become quicker at multiplying - so we
got the game FOR that purpose, as a fun way to speed up. So - it wasn't
me sneaking it past them. They are 14 and 17 and each have their
reasons for wanting to speed up, not have to stop and figure out
answers.
-pam
autonomousangela
> Angela,about you, your girls, and your horse <g> the other day. I was
>
> I remember you from another unschooling list. I was just thinking
wondering how you were, since I haven't been on that list in a while.
Now I know you're doing very well. :)
Yes, Michelle, life is good. :) The kids are happy and have a couple
new horsey friends. (one of whom keeps asking how many work sheets
they have to do every day and doesn't quite understand that they don't
have to do any.) We just love our horse and the life we've created
living half here at home and half at the barn. Thanks for thinking of
us. :)
Angela ~ whose been bouncing messages and hopes its straightened out
now.
Mara Winders
I did know from your posts on the other list that they were asking for
your help with this....didn't mean to imply that it would be
manipulative for you....just for me.
Mara
your help with this....didn't mean to imply that it would be
manipulative for you....just for me.
Mara
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Mine were specifically wanting to become quicker at multiplying - so we
> got the game FOR that purpose, as a fun way to speed up. So - it wasn't
> me sneaking it past them. They are 14 and 17 and each have their
> reasons for wanting to speed up, not have to stop and figure out
> answers.
>
> -pam
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/6/2005 12:00:15 AM Central Standard Time,
mara@... writes:
Does anyone have experience with how sturdy these
units are? Can they withstand the hands of an 18 mo? Will they survive
being dropped, or maybe being used as a hammer?
~~~
Buy her one. It doesn't have to be just like theirs. Go to the used game
store or Goodwill and buy her an old video game--hopefully one that works, and
give it to her. You could probably get by with one of those one-game
handhelds sold in the toy department. I'd try to get it in the same color,
though. I mean, she's young, but she's not an idiot. ;)
You could also ask one of the siblings to let her play with their DS
(supervised) for a whole day. Try not to tell her "no" about it, but don't let her
use it as a hammer. Let her get her fill. Show her how to be responsible
with it (on an 18 monthers level), and let her play with it. Show her how to
push the buttons and put the games in and out.
And, I'd ask the siblings to be kind to her, and if they're not going to let
her play with their system, to keep all of it put away, and not play in
front of her. It's mean to be saying no all the time.
She just wants to be like her sibs. Nothing wrong with that. If you remove
the air of the forbidden around it, she'll lose interest eventually.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mara@... writes:
Does anyone have experience with how sturdy these
units are? Can they withstand the hands of an 18 mo? Will they survive
being dropped, or maybe being used as a hammer?
~~~
Buy her one. It doesn't have to be just like theirs. Go to the used game
store or Goodwill and buy her an old video game--hopefully one that works, and
give it to her. You could probably get by with one of those one-game
handhelds sold in the toy department. I'd try to get it in the same color,
though. I mean, she's young, but she's not an idiot. ;)
You could also ask one of the siblings to let her play with their DS
(supervised) for a whole day. Try not to tell her "no" about it, but don't let her
use it as a hammer. Let her get her fill. Show her how to be responsible
with it (on an 18 monthers level), and let her play with it. Show her how to
push the buttons and put the games in and out.
And, I'd ask the siblings to be kind to her, and if they're not going to let
her play with their system, to keep all of it put away, and not play in
front of her. It's mean to be saying no all the time.
She just wants to be like her sibs. Nothing wrong with that. If you remove
the air of the forbidden around it, she'll lose interest eventually.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
On Jun 5, 2005, at 9:34 PM, Mara Winders wrote:
way into a little mouth! Nintendo DS uses a tiny stylus unsuitable for
a toddler, I think. Also, like all the handheld systems, the screens
can be scratched; I'd definitely get a tougher game system for the baby
to play with. We have some seemingly indestructible Gameboy colors <g>
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Does anyone have experience with how sturdy theseThe game cartridges are tiny -- I'd be cautious they don't make their
> units are? Can they withstand the hands of an 18 mo? Will they
> survive
> being dropped, or maybe being used as a hammer?
>
>
way into a little mouth! Nintendo DS uses a tiny stylus unsuitable for
a toddler, I think. Also, like all the handheld systems, the screens
can be scratched; I'd definitely get a tougher game system for the baby
to play with. We have some seemingly indestructible Gameboy colors <g>
Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]