Emily

Hi,

I am new to this group - I feel very strongly that I would like to
incorporate Holt's views on learning into my own upbringing of my DS
(6 mos). However, I have only found very brief paragraphs of his
that relate specifically to infants. My husband (who read 'How
Children Learn') and I are having a hard time figuring out how best
to apply Holt's theories to our infant. Since a 6 month old has
such a limited understanding of the world, I am torn between showing
him how to do things and letting him figure everything out for
himself (I'm afraid that at this age children might need more
guidance than at the toddler age, but I really don't know). For
instance, I recently taught him how to turn the light switch on and
off - I tried letting him just play with the switch as would seem to
be the best way per Holt, but he didn't have any interest until I
showed him how it works. Does anyone know of any
writers/researchers/websites with views similar to Holt's but with a
bent towards infants?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Emily

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Emily <emilikow@...>


For instance, I recently taught him how to turn the light switch on and
off - I tried letting him just play with the switch as would seem to
be the best way per Holt, but he didn't have any interest until I
showed him how it works.

-=-=-=-=-=-

Does any six month old *need* to know how to turn on light? Isn't that
what mom is for?

It has *so* much to do with "when he's ready"----like, *everything* to
do with it!

He may find that knowing how to turn it on is pretty cool, but he can't
even *reach* it! What purpose would that serve him?

~Kelly

[email protected]

Sorry---that heading should have been "John Holt for infants"

~K

[email protected]

I would read the Continum Concept and other AP books first.
CC is very much about just living life with children by
our sides, learning and growing. Its too the extreme in
some cases for some, but good food for thought. Right now
you can just love your baby and respond to his needs. Its
all so natural : ) I don't think you need to show him
anything artificially. In my experience, they all figure
out that turning the light switch on and off as soon
as they can reach it is a blast LOL.

Kathy

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Emily
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 8:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] John Holt for Infants?


Hi,

I am new to this group - I feel very strongly that I would like to
incorporate Holt's views on learning into my own upbringing of my DS
(6 mos). However, I have only found very brief paragraphs of his
that relate specifically to infants. My husband (who read 'How
Children Learn') and I are having a hard time figuring out how best
to apply Holt's theories to our infant. Since a 6 month old has
such a limited understanding of the world, I am torn between showing
him how to do things and letting him figure everything out for
himself (I'm afraid that at this age children might need more
guidance than at the toddler age, but I really don't know). For
instance, I recently taught him how to turn the light switch on and
off - I tried letting him just play with the switch as would seem to
be the best way per Holt, but he didn't have any interest until I
showed him how it works. Does anyone know of any
writers/researchers/websites with views similar to Holt's but with a
bent towards infants?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Emily








Yahoo! Groups Links

Danielle Conger

Emily wrote:

>Does anyone know of any
>writers/researchers/websites with views similar to Holt's but with a
>bent towards infants?
>
>

You're welcome to join us over at the Always Unschooled list where there
are several moms employing Holt's philosophies with young children--some
as young as yours: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled/

Feel free to check out my website below, which details our learning
adventures though my kids are a bit older than 6 mos. It will however
show you what's in store in the near future.

--
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (4.5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

Emily

You are very right Kathy! I have read Continuum Concept and a few
other AP books. I'm not sure why I taught him the light switch. We
do EC, so we are in and out of the bathroom a million times a day,
so it seemed to fit...

I actually had a great John Holt experience yesterday, since I put
up the post. I bought crayons for my son (based on a story from a
GWS article that was mentioned in 'How Children Learn') about a
month ago and have given them to him to play with about once a week
to see if he was "ready". Each time, he would just put the crayons
in his mouth. Then, yesterday, I realized that the only thing that
worried me about this was the paper around the crayons, so I took
off the paper and gave him the wax crayons and sat him in my lap
with a big pad of paper and then just watched. Initially, he was
interested only in sucking on the crayons. But as his arms moved
around with the crayons in his hands, he noticed that he was making
marks on the paper. Then he started focusing on his drawing instead
of sucking and even worked on adjusting the crayon in his hand to
make it easier to draw! Even though there was mention of a 6 month
old using crayons in 'How Children Learn', I never expected it to be
such a fascinating, mind-opening and successful experience!

I agree that you don't have to show babies anything artificially - I
find though that I've been programmed to think that I'm being a
better mother by teaching because I'm doing something rather than
just watching. I'm working on it! Thanks for your thoughts.

Emily


--- In [email protected], <kaculwell@s...> wrote:
> I would read the Continum Concept and other AP books first.
> CC is very much about just living life with children by
> our sides, learning and growing. Its too the extreme in
> some cases for some, but good food for thought. Right now
> you can just love your baby and respond to his needs. Its
> all so natural : ) I don't think you need to show him
> anything artificially. In my experience, they all figure
> out that turning the light switch on and off as soon
> as they can reach it is a blast LOL.
>
> Kathy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Emily
> Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 8:56 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] John Holt for Infants?
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I am new to this group - I feel very strongly that I would like to
> incorporate Holt's views on learning into my own upbringing of my
DS
> (6 mos). However, I have only found very brief paragraphs of his
> that relate specifically to infants. My husband (who read 'How
> Children Learn') and I are having a hard time figuring out how
best
> to apply Holt's theories to our infant. Since a 6 month old has
> such a limited understanding of the world, I am torn between
showing
> him how to do things and letting him figure everything out for
> himself (I'm afraid that at this age children might need more
> guidance than at the toddler age, but I really don't know). For
> instance, I recently taught him how to turn the light switch on
and
> off - I tried letting him just play with the switch as would seem
to
> be the best way per Holt, but he didn't have any interest until I
> showed him how it works. Does anyone know of any
> writers/researchers/websites with views similar to Holt's but with
a
> bent towards infants?
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks
> Emily
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/8/2005 4:17:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
emilikow@... writes:

I feel very strongly that I would like to
incorporate Holt's views on learning into my own upbringing of my DS
(6 mos). However, I have only found very brief paragraphs of his
that relate specifically to infants.


=======================

If you distill what you read into the principles behind the suggestions, you
don't need specifics.

Here are some ideas about living by principle rather than by rules, and
though it might seem this is changing the topic, it's probably exactly what
you're wanting (without knowing it):

_http://sandradodd.com/rules_ (http://sandradodd.com/rules)

Be sure to follow the links to the bits by Danielle Conger and Ben Lovejoy.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-=-Since a 6 month old has
such a limited understanding of the world, I am torn between showing
him how to do things and letting him figure everything out for
himself -=-


=============================

I'm sorry I'm behind on e-mail, but we have fun unschooling houseguests.

I kept coming back to this one, though.

Probably someone has suggested attachment parenting sites.

There are lots of things between "showing him how to do things" and "letting
him figure everything out for himself." Some things (let's take the big
things looming in his future) you can't "show him how to do--sitting up and
walking. He HAS to figure those out for himself.

So you let him figure them out for himself? Not totally. Probably you'll
help him by propping things behind him when he's first learning to sit up, or
clearing a space for him or making things easily available for him to play
with when he can first sit up but can't crawl yet. And walking needs things to
pull up on, and encouragment, and maybe he'd like to hold your finger and
pull up or walk from the couch two or three steps to your hands. That's not
showing him how, it's helping him when HE wants to do it.

If you show him that a toy comes apart, that's like pee-a-boo. He might be
months from doing it himself, but he'll probably have fun watching you pull
something out and put it back in.

It won't ruin his discovery for you to show him how things work, or to talk
while you're doing things so he'll start to see how they go, like talking
about buckling the carseat, that there are two buckles; or saying you're screwing
the lid on a cup so it won't spill. That's conversation, and will help him
understand how and why, and to pick up terminology. Just carry him around,
talk to him, and give him the opportunity to see, touch, taste, smell and hear
lots and lots of things.

-=- For
instance, I recently taught him how to turn the light switch on and
off - I tried letting him just play with the switch as would seem to
be the best way per Holt, but he didn't have any interest until I
showed him how it works. -=-

The most you could have done is to turn the light on and off and point at it
and talk about the switch, and maybe help him turn it on and off and say
"Cool!" or whatever. You don't know that you "taught" him, but if he can do it
himself now, you do know that he LEARNED.

That's a life-changing distinction, when you really know deep down the
difference between teaching him and him learning things.
_http://sandradodd.com/wordswords_ (http://sandradodd.com/wordswords)

-=- Does anyone know of any
writers/researchers/websites with views similar to Holt's but with a
bent towards infants?
-=-
When my teens were babies, my favorite authors were
William Sears, Penelope Leach and Polly Berrien Berends (Whole Child, Whole
Parent)
and they all had ideas that made me feel more confident and helped clarify
my thinking.
I especially recommend that third one,
_http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060928182/102-6926418-1668136?
v=glance_
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060928182/102-6926418-1668136?v=glance)




Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela S.

Sandra wrote:

<<That's conversation, and will help him
understand how and why, and to pick up terminology. Just carry him around,

talk to him, and give him the opportunity to see, touch, taste, smell and
hear
lots and lots of things.>>



Emily wrote:

<<I agree that you don't have to show babies anything artificially - I
find though that I've been programmed to think that I'm being a
better mother by teaching because I'm doing something rather than
just watching. I'm working on it! Thanks for your thoughts.>>



Talking to my babies and showing them things was natural for me. It was
what my own mother did and still does with her grandbabies. But it amazes
me upon talking with folks sometimes that not everyone does these things.
I've only observed a small group of mother's parenting from birth on up but
it does seem to me that the more time spent in mother's arms, being talked
to and shown things, the greater understanding small children have of their
world and the greater their ability to be understood, whether or not they
are talking.



Angela



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

On May 8, 2005, at 8:48 PM, Emily wrote:

> We
> do EC, so we are in and out of the bathroom a million times a day,
> so it seemed to fit...
>

EC? What's that?

Nancy

Emily

Elimination Communication, otherwise known as Infant Potty Training.
It's a bit silly but fun. It's a process of getting in tune with your
baby's queues when he/she pees/poops to try to minimize use of diapers.

http://www.timl.com/ipt/

--- In [email protected], Nancy Wooton
<ikonstitcher@c...> wrote:
>
> On May 8, 2005, at 8:48 PM, Emily wrote:
>
> > We
> > do EC, so we are in and out of the bathroom a million times a day,
> > so it seemed to fit...
> >
>
> EC? What's that?
>
> Nancy

Emily

I find that there is a bit of a fine line between "artificially
showing" baby something and just talking to baby. For instance,
yesterday we were out walking most of the day. My DS loves to look
up when he's in the sling (I still like to wear him facing me so I
can see his face so he seems to prefer the view above rather than to
the side). When we're walking, I find that I just like to talk to
him and I sing little made up songs like "Yoavi loves to look up -
up up up - up at the sky, up at the trees, etc." Am I teaching or
talking? If I say to him "Mommy's wiping the table" while I wipe
the table, is that teaching or talking?

Emily


--- In [email protected], "Angela S." <game-
enthusiast@a...> wrote:
> Sandra wrote:
>
> <<That's conversation, and will help him
> understand how and why, and to pick up terminology. Just carry
him around,
>
> talk to him, and give him the opportunity to see, touch, taste,
smell and
> hear
> lots and lots of things.>>
>
>
>
> Emily wrote:
>
> <<I agree that you don't have to show babies anything
artificially - I
> find though that I've been programmed to think that I'm being a
> better mother by teaching because I'm doing something rather than
> just watching. I'm working on it! Thanks for your thoughts.>>
>
>
>
> Talking to my babies and showing them things was natural for me.
It was
> what my own mother did and still does with her grandbabies. But
it amazes
> me upon talking with folks sometimes that not everyone does these
things.
> I've only observed a small group of mother's parenting from birth
on up but
> it does seem to me that the more time spent in mother's arms,
being talked
> to and shown things, the greater understanding small children have
of their
> world and the greater their ability to be understood, whether or
not they
> are talking.
>
>
>
> Angela
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Emily

Wow, Sandra, this is PERFECT! Thanks so much for taking the time to
respond so thoroughly. I think you hit the nail on the head. I
think this will give me the peace of mind I craved. I'm the type
who wants to be "right" about everything, who lived for As all
through formal schooling. I first fell into AP when my son was born
because I couldn't bear his cries when I put him in the co-sleeper I
had, so this introduced me to the idea of sleeping with baby and Dr.
Sears which led me to AP and Continuum Concept which got me to John
Holt. I believe strongly in AP and John Holt, but I find myself
worrying that I am doing something "wrong." I like what you wrote
about principles vs. rules as well. I guess I need to realize that
these ideas are not rules but rather principles and I will find my
way...

Warmest regards,
Emily

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> -=-Since a 6 month old has
> such a limited understanding of the world, I am torn between
showing
> him how to do things and letting him figure everything out for
> himself -=-
>
>
> =============================
>
> I'm sorry I'm behind on e-mail, but we have fun unschooling
houseguests.
>
> I kept coming back to this one, though.
>
> Probably someone has suggested attachment parenting sites.
>
> There are lots of things between "showing him how to do things"
and "letting
> him figure everything out for himself." Some things (let's take
the big
> things looming in his future) you can't "show him how to do--
sitting up and
> walking. He HAS to figure those out for himself.
>
> So you let him figure them out for himself? Not totally.
Probably you'll
> help him by propping things behind him when he's first learning
to sit up, or
> clearing a space for him or making things easily available for
him to play
> with when he can first sit up but can't crawl yet. And walking
needs things to
> pull up on, and encouragment, and maybe he'd like to hold your
finger and
> pull up or walk from the couch two or three steps to your hands.
That's not
> showing him how, it's helping him when HE wants to do it.
>
> If you show him that a toy comes apart, that's like pee-a-boo.
He might be
> months from doing it himself, but he'll probably have fun watching
you pull
> something out and put it back in.
>
> It won't ruin his discovery for you to show him how things work,
or to talk
> while you're doing things so he'll start to see how they go, like
talking
> about buckling the carseat, that there are two buckles; or saying
you're screwing
> the lid on a cup so it won't spill. That's conversation, and
will help him
> understand how and why, and to pick up terminology. Just carry
him around,
> talk to him, and give him the opportunity to see, touch, taste,
smell and hear
> lots and lots of things.
>
> -=- For
> instance, I recently taught him how to turn the light switch on
and
> off - I tried letting him just play with the switch as would seem
to
> be the best way per Holt, but he didn't have any interest until I
> showed him how it works. -=-
>
> The most you could have done is to turn the light on and off and
point at it
> and talk about the switch, and maybe help him turn it on and off
and say
> "Cool!" or whatever. You don't know that you "taught" him, but if
he can do it
> himself now, you do know that he LEARNED.
>
> That's a life-changing distinction, when you really know deep down
the
> difference between teaching him and him learning things.
> _http://sandradodd.com/wordswords_
(http://sandradodd.com/wordswords)
>
> -=- Does anyone know of any
> writers/researchers/websites with views similar to Holt's but
with a
> bent towards infants?
> -=-
> When my teens were babies, my favorite authors were
> William Sears, Penelope Leach and Polly Berrien Berends (Whole
Child, Whole
> Parent)
> and they all had ideas that made me feel more confident and helped
clarify
> my thinking.
> I especially recommend that third one,
> _http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060928182/102-
6926418-1668136?
> v=glance_
> (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060928182/102-
6926418-1668136?v=glance)
>
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jason & Stephanie

When we're walking, I find that I just like to talk to
him and I sing little made up songs like "Yoavi loves to look up -
up up up - up at the sky, up at the trees, etc." Am I teaching or
talking? If I say to him "Mommy's wiping the table" while I wipe
the table, is that teaching or talking?

Emily

*****I always talked to my babies while we did stuff. I always talked to them like *real people*

If you have some ulterior motive then you may be *teaching* but if you are just going about life and talking along the way then that is a different story.

Stephanie in PA
Kieran (9) Brennan(6) Cassandra(5) Jared(2)

True learning- learning that is permanent and useful, that leads to intelligent action
and further learning- can arise only out of the experience, interests and concerns of the learner.
~John Holt


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

You keep referencing "How Children Learn". Have you read "Learning All the
Time"? That's the one Holt book most clearly about very young children.

Deborah in IL


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/9/2005 5:27:46 PM Central Standard Time,
emilikow@... writes:

I'm the type
who wants to be "right" about everything,


~~~

Would you rather be right or happy?

Choose happy. Trust me.

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/9/2005 10:26:04 PM Central Standard Time,
thesixofus@... writes:

*****I always talked to my babies while we did stuff. I always talked to
them like *real people*




~~~

I sing silly songs to real people, too. ;)

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/9/2005 10:26:04 PM Central Standard Time,
thesixofus@... writes:

*****I always talked to my babies while we did stuff. I always talked
to
them like *real people*

~~~

I sing silly songs to real people, too. ;)

Karen

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

There's NOTHING silly about "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" <g>

~Kelly

(Tuck did a lovely rendition of "pie" accompanied on her ukelele at
last year's conference.)

"Pie" refers to Duncan. It's one of the songs in my basket. One night
Dunc asked me to sing "Pie." I had no idea which song he meant. I asked
him to sing a few bars. He did: "Somewhere over the rainbow, Way up
PIE!" <g>

[email protected]

"and kisses are a far better fate
than wisdom"

A little ee cummings seemed appropriate.

Dar


-- tuckervill2@... wrote:


In a message dated 5/9/2005 5:27:46 PM Central Standard Time,
emilikow@... writes:

I'm the type
who wants to be "right" about everything,


~~~

Would you rather be right or happy?

Choose happy. Trust me.

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





Yahoo! Groups Links

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/10/2005 8:16:59 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

"Pie" refers to Duncan. It's one of the songs in my basket. One night
Dunc asked me to sing "Pie." I had no idea which song he meant. I asked
him to sing a few bars. He did: "Somewhere over the rainbow, Way up
PIE!" <g>



=-----

Wouldn't that be "weigh a pie"?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]