labeling "disciplines" (was Math)
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/4/2005 1:02:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ikonstitcher@... writes:
To me,
Math exists within the covers of public school textbooks, not out here
where I live. I can keep safe from it if I never open the books.
=============
It's hard for some people to understand the difference between school's
label/category/"discipline" and the real material out in the honest-to-God
everyday whole, healthy world.
For instance, I used to teach English. Was I teaching anyone to SPEAK
English? No, they all were native speakers. And some schools, realizing that,
got all modern and scientific and so call English "Language Arts." And there
were many times and ways in which I was categorized and identified as a
certified instructor of language arts. That's a lot of words, and that's why
professionals make more money. (Joke. Teachers hardly make diddly.)
Some adults HATE "language arts." They used to think they hated English,
but how could people hate their own native language?
So, these "language arts" that can come to be feared and despised...
Poetry, short story, novel; public speaking (at least show'n'tell); theatre
awareness/appreciation; writing (fiction and non-fiction, along with which
come parts of speech and formal outlines and citations and other common
horrors).
Yet in the absence of even the idea of "language arts," I have seen my kids
enjoy, pursue and discuss as deeply as adults LOTS of poetry, poets, song
lyrics, short stories, novels (whether they read them themselves or not), I've
seen them all perform or present in public to one extent or another (I've seen
Kirby teach in two different areas of his life).
Kirby was in an English 101 class for a month and did the best outline in
his class (said the teacher in writing, before she gave him a D for
technicalities of her oppressive personal preferences), and used citations.
BUT: Kids on the internet use citations every time they reference another
website or add a photo to a profile or order a trading card from a publisher
or quote a gaming tournament update and document that it's later information
than their target/correpondendent had.
Holly and I heard a Meatloaf song on the radio a bit ago that neither of us
had heard, and she was discussing the similarities of form and subject
(without using those terms) to other songs, and so figured it was probably a Jim
Steinman song too.
That is what "analysis and criticism" of poetry should be all
about--real-life apprecation and discussion. In school they'll ask the kids questions, but
there are already pre-chosen "right answers."
From the beginning, I decided not to use the terms school uses for "academic
disciplines." And my kids can neither love, hate nor fear science, history,
math or English. They have dozens of the elements without the *false*
school-exclusive concept of the overriding grouping of those VERY different areas
of interest into monolithic "subjects."
It's crazy to think that tank and fighter-plane technology of WWII is "the
same thing" as Egyptian mummification, but in school it is the same thing.
They're both history. And if a kid decides he hates one, he will avoid the
other. Same with math, history, science and English. I say NEVER NAME THEM.
Leave that for kids who love the world and are confident in their huge store
of knowledge and joy to discover the silly idea of the labels when they're
too old for it to mar their growing personal model of the universe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ikonstitcher@... writes:
To me,
Math exists within the covers of public school textbooks, not out here
where I live. I can keep safe from it if I never open the books.
=============
It's hard for some people to understand the difference between school's
label/category/"discipline" and the real material out in the honest-to-God
everyday whole, healthy world.
For instance, I used to teach English. Was I teaching anyone to SPEAK
English? No, they all were native speakers. And some schools, realizing that,
got all modern and scientific and so call English "Language Arts." And there
were many times and ways in which I was categorized and identified as a
certified instructor of language arts. That's a lot of words, and that's why
professionals make more money. (Joke. Teachers hardly make diddly.)
Some adults HATE "language arts." They used to think they hated English,
but how could people hate their own native language?
So, these "language arts" that can come to be feared and despised...
Poetry, short story, novel; public speaking (at least show'n'tell); theatre
awareness/appreciation; writing (fiction and non-fiction, along with which
come parts of speech and formal outlines and citations and other common
horrors).
Yet in the absence of even the idea of "language arts," I have seen my kids
enjoy, pursue and discuss as deeply as adults LOTS of poetry, poets, song
lyrics, short stories, novels (whether they read them themselves or not), I've
seen them all perform or present in public to one extent or another (I've seen
Kirby teach in two different areas of his life).
Kirby was in an English 101 class for a month and did the best outline in
his class (said the teacher in writing, before she gave him a D for
technicalities of her oppressive personal preferences), and used citations.
BUT: Kids on the internet use citations every time they reference another
website or add a photo to a profile or order a trading card from a publisher
or quote a gaming tournament update and document that it's later information
than their target/correpondendent had.
Holly and I heard a Meatloaf song on the radio a bit ago that neither of us
had heard, and she was discussing the similarities of form and subject
(without using those terms) to other songs, and so figured it was probably a Jim
Steinman song too.
That is what "analysis and criticism" of poetry should be all
about--real-life apprecation and discussion. In school they'll ask the kids questions, but
there are already pre-chosen "right answers."
From the beginning, I decided not to use the terms school uses for "academic
disciplines." And my kids can neither love, hate nor fear science, history,
math or English. They have dozens of the elements without the *false*
school-exclusive concept of the overriding grouping of those VERY different areas
of interest into monolithic "subjects."
It's crazy to think that tank and fighter-plane technology of WWII is "the
same thing" as Egyptian mummification, but in school it is the same thing.
They're both history. And if a kid decides he hates one, he will avoid the
other. Same with math, history, science and English. I say NEVER NAME THEM.
Leave that for kids who love the world and are confident in their huge store
of knowledge and joy to discover the silly idea of the labels when they're
too old for it to mar their growing personal model of the universe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jordan
Sandra�s post makes me think of �Life as Jeopardy� (Hello, I�m Alex
Trebek, and I�ll be your guide�) Seriously though. The categories on the
show are very specific and mostly very real. Yeah, sometimes they make no
sense, but Life is like that! So, contestants aren�t faced with the
category �Math� and thus have no reason to think, �Oh geez�I suck at Math!�
Instead, they get something like �Easy as �� Then they get an answer like
�2.14�� and they find that they know �pi� but they still think they suck at
math. So, I agree. Don�t name the �subjects��they�re too subjective
anyway. Kids are taught US history in grade X, but don�t know who Susan B.
Anthony is. Calling numbers and patterns and concepts and such �Math� is
creating a box for the HUGE thing that �math� really is. And, just like
Shoeless Joe in �Field of Dreams�, �if you build it, they will come.� If
you construct the box, the need to fit stuff in to it may be way too close
for anyone�s comfort. (Yeah, I know Jeopardy categories are literally in
boxes, and I�m in effect mixing my metaphors, but I have nursing brain and
am lucky I remember how to spell �box�, let alone what pi equals. Give me a
break :-))
Tami (who was a �math Olympian� through 8th grade, but was thought to have
�no head for numbers� by the middle of 9th grade algebra. Perhaps this had
something to do with the girl-bullies who tried to smash my head into
lockers before 5th period algebra everyday?)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of SandraDodd@...
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 5:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] labeling "disciplines" (was Math)
In a message dated 5/4/2005 1:02:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ikonstitcher@... writes:
To me,
Math exists within the covers of public school textbooks, not out here
where I live. I can keep safe from it if I never open the books.
=============
It's hard for some people to understand the difference between school's
label/category/"discipline" and the real material out in the honest-to-God
everyday whole, healthy world.
For instance, I used to teach English. Was I teaching anyone to SPEAK
English? No, they all were native speakers. And some schools, realizing
that,
got all modern and scientific and so call English "Language Arts." And
there
were many times and ways in which I was categorized and identified as a
certified instructor of language arts. That's a lot of words, and that's
why
professionals make more money. (Joke. Teachers hardly make diddly.)
<<<snip>>>>
It's crazy to think that tank and fighter-plane technology of WWII is "the
same thing" as Egyptian mummification, but in school it is the same thing.
They're both history. And if a kid decides he hates one, he will avoid the
other. Same with math, history, science and English. I say NEVER NAME
THEM.
Leave that for kids who love the world and are confident in their huge
store
of knowledge and joy to discover the silly idea of the labels when they're
too old for it to mar their growing personal model of the universe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.3 - Release Date: 5/3/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Trebek, and I�ll be your guide�) Seriously though. The categories on the
show are very specific and mostly very real. Yeah, sometimes they make no
sense, but Life is like that! So, contestants aren�t faced with the
category �Math� and thus have no reason to think, �Oh geez�I suck at Math!�
Instead, they get something like �Easy as �� Then they get an answer like
�2.14�� and they find that they know �pi� but they still think they suck at
math. So, I agree. Don�t name the �subjects��they�re too subjective
anyway. Kids are taught US history in grade X, but don�t know who Susan B.
Anthony is. Calling numbers and patterns and concepts and such �Math� is
creating a box for the HUGE thing that �math� really is. And, just like
Shoeless Joe in �Field of Dreams�, �if you build it, they will come.� If
you construct the box, the need to fit stuff in to it may be way too close
for anyone�s comfort. (Yeah, I know Jeopardy categories are literally in
boxes, and I�m in effect mixing my metaphors, but I have nursing brain and
am lucky I remember how to spell �box�, let alone what pi equals. Give me a
break :-))
Tami (who was a �math Olympian� through 8th grade, but was thought to have
�no head for numbers� by the middle of 9th grade algebra. Perhaps this had
something to do with the girl-bullies who tried to smash my head into
lockers before 5th period algebra everyday?)
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of SandraDodd@...
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 5:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] labeling "disciplines" (was Math)
In a message dated 5/4/2005 1:02:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ikonstitcher@... writes:
To me,
Math exists within the covers of public school textbooks, not out here
where I live. I can keep safe from it if I never open the books.
=============
It's hard for some people to understand the difference between school's
label/category/"discipline" and the real material out in the honest-to-God
everyday whole, healthy world.
For instance, I used to teach English. Was I teaching anyone to SPEAK
English? No, they all were native speakers. And some schools, realizing
that,
got all modern and scientific and so call English "Language Arts." And
there
were many times and ways in which I was categorized and identified as a
certified instructor of language arts. That's a lot of words, and that's
why
professionals make more money. (Joke. Teachers hardly make diddly.)
<<<snip>>>>
It's crazy to think that tank and fighter-plane technology of WWII is "the
same thing" as Egyptian mummification, but in school it is the same thing.
They're both history. And if a kid decides he hates one, he will avoid the
other. Same with math, history, science and English. I say NEVER NAME
THEM.
Leave that for kids who love the world and are confident in their huge
store
of knowledge and joy to discover the silly idea of the labels when they're
too old for it to mar their growing personal model of the universe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.3 - Release Date: 5/3/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
apfel bluete
Hi-
This may not fit into everyone's version of unschooling but if you are interested in alternative learning, check out some Stern math or Froebel's gifts.
http://www.sternmath.com/theory.html
Good luck,
Apfel
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 5/4/2005 1:02:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ikonstitcher@... writes:
To me,
Math exists within the covers of public school textbooks, not out here
where I live. I can keep safe from it if I never open the books.
=============
It's hard for some people to understand the difference between school's
label/category/"discipline" and the real material out in the honest-to-God
everyday whole, healthy world.
For instance, I used to teach English. Was I teaching anyone to SPEAK
English? No, they all were native speakers. And some schools, realizing that,
got all modern and scientific and so call English "Language Arts." And there
were many times and ways in which I was categorized and identified as a
certified instructor of language arts. That's a lot of words, and that's why
professionals make more money. (Joke. Teachers hardly make diddly.)
Some adults HATE "language arts." They used to think they hated English,
but how could people hate their own native language?
So, these "language arts" that can come to be feared and despised...
Poetry, short story, novel; public speaking (at least show'n'tell); theatre
awareness/appreciation; writing (fiction and non-fiction, along with which
come parts of speech and formal outlines and citations and other common
horrors).
Yet in the absence of even the idea of "language arts," I have seen my kids
enjoy, pursue and discuss as deeply as adults LOTS of poetry, poets, song
lyrics, short stories, novels (whether they read them themselves or not), I've
seen them all perform or present in public to one extent or another (I've seen
Kirby teach in two different areas of his life).
Kirby was in an English 101 class for a month and did the best outline in
his class (said the teacher in writing, before she gave him a D for
technicalities of her oppressive personal preferences), and used citations.
BUT: Kids on the internet use citations every time they reference another
website or add a photo to a profile or order a trading card from a publisher
or quote a gaming tournament update and document that it's later information
than their target/correpondendent had.
Holly and I heard a Meatloaf song on the radio a bit ago that neither of us
had heard, and she was discussing the similarities of form and subject
(without using those terms) to other songs, and so figured it was probably a Jim
Steinman song too.
That is what "analysis and criticism" of poetry should be all
about--real-life apprecation and discussion. In school they'll ask the kids questions, but
there are already pre-chosen "right answers."
From the beginning, I decided not to use the terms school uses for "academic
disciplines." And my kids can neither love, hate nor fear science, history,
math or English. They have dozens of the elements without the *false*
school-exclusive concept of the overriding grouping of those VERY different areas
of interest into monolithic "subjects."
It's crazy to think that tank and fighter-plane technology of WWII is "the
same thing" as Egyptian mummification, but in school it is the same thing.
They're both history. And if a kid decides he hates one, he will avoid the
other. Same with math, history, science and English. I say NEVER NAME THEM.
Leave that for kids who love the world and are confident in their huge store
of knowledge and joy to discover the silly idea of the labels when they're
too old for it to mar their growing personal model of the universe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This may not fit into everyone's version of unschooling but if you are interested in alternative learning, check out some Stern math or Froebel's gifts.
http://www.sternmath.com/theory.html
Good luck,
Apfel
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 5/4/2005 1:02:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
ikonstitcher@... writes:
To me,
Math exists within the covers of public school textbooks, not out here
where I live. I can keep safe from it if I never open the books.
=============
It's hard for some people to understand the difference between school's
label/category/"discipline" and the real material out in the honest-to-God
everyday whole, healthy world.
For instance, I used to teach English. Was I teaching anyone to SPEAK
English? No, they all were native speakers. And some schools, realizing that,
got all modern and scientific and so call English "Language Arts." And there
were many times and ways in which I was categorized and identified as a
certified instructor of language arts. That's a lot of words, and that's why
professionals make more money. (Joke. Teachers hardly make diddly.)
Some adults HATE "language arts." They used to think they hated English,
but how could people hate their own native language?
So, these "language arts" that can come to be feared and despised...
Poetry, short story, novel; public speaking (at least show'n'tell); theatre
awareness/appreciation; writing (fiction and non-fiction, along with which
come parts of speech and formal outlines and citations and other common
horrors).
Yet in the absence of even the idea of "language arts," I have seen my kids
enjoy, pursue and discuss as deeply as adults LOTS of poetry, poets, song
lyrics, short stories, novels (whether they read them themselves or not), I've
seen them all perform or present in public to one extent or another (I've seen
Kirby teach in two different areas of his life).
Kirby was in an English 101 class for a month and did the best outline in
his class (said the teacher in writing, before she gave him a D for
technicalities of her oppressive personal preferences), and used citations.
BUT: Kids on the internet use citations every time they reference another
website or add a photo to a profile or order a trading card from a publisher
or quote a gaming tournament update and document that it's later information
than their target/correpondendent had.
Holly and I heard a Meatloaf song on the radio a bit ago that neither of us
had heard, and she was discussing the similarities of form and subject
(without using those terms) to other songs, and so figured it was probably a Jim
Steinman song too.
That is what "analysis and criticism" of poetry should be all
about--real-life apprecation and discussion. In school they'll ask the kids questions, but
there are already pre-chosen "right answers."
From the beginning, I decided not to use the terms school uses for "academic
disciplines." And my kids can neither love, hate nor fear science, history,
math or English. They have dozens of the elements without the *false*
school-exclusive concept of the overriding grouping of those VERY different areas
of interest into monolithic "subjects."
It's crazy to think that tank and fighter-plane technology of WWII is "the
same thing" as Egyptian mummification, but in school it is the same thing.
They're both history. And if a kid decides he hates one, he will avoid the
other. Same with math, history, science and English. I say NEVER NAME THEM.
Leave that for kids who love the world and are confident in their huge store
of knowledge and joy to discover the silly idea of the labels when they're
too old for it to mar their growing personal model of the universe.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Discover Yahoo!
Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 5, 2005, at 7:15 PM, apfel bluete wrote:
put into sanitized artificial recreations of it! ;-)
It's basically a systematized way of trying to lead kids through the
things they'll discover on their own by living a full rich life.
The problem is that it's still divorced from real life meaning. And
it's likely to make parents nervous that kids can't possibly discover
these same concepts from life since kids don't naturally stumble on
counting boards and cubes, let alone lay out things in ways so parents
can see the concepts the child is working on.
Joyce
> This may not fit into everyone's version of unschooling but if you areAmazing what needs done when children are removed from real life and
> interested in alternative learning, check out some Stern math or
> Froebel's gifts.
put into sanitized artificial recreations of it! ;-)
It's basically a systematized way of trying to lead kids through the
things they'll discover on their own by living a full rich life.
The problem is that it's still divorced from real life meaning. And
it's likely to make parents nervous that kids can't possibly discover
these same concepts from life since kids don't naturally stumble on
counting boards and cubes, let alone lay out things in ways so parents
can see the concepts the child is working on.
Joyce