More about television
heasue2003
I must admitt that I started this television debate :) Can't believe
how long it has gone on. I hope nobody has felt attacked or have
hurt feelings over any of this. Tolerance, tolerance, tolerance. It
is something I struggle with.
When I decided to unschool I didn't jump right in and let my kids
lead. I think for some of us, the ability to unschool comes in time.
It takes time to dismiss our old ways of thinking and doing.
I know that some of you may not agree witht he way I unschool. I
don't *teach* the basic subjects like Math, Science, History and so
forth. I do however spend a few minutes about two or three days a
week working with my daughter out of a Spanish workbook. She enjoys
it. If she hated it I would stop. Just recently I have decided to
try a few new things to occupy our minds during these long winter
months. A hero a week, where I search out someone who I feel would
interest my daughter. We learn a little about that person. Also, I
am going to try creating a penpal relationship between my daughter
and another relative. She loves recieving mail.
Although my daughter did not inntiate these things, I have taken her
interests in to account and am going to be introducing these ideas to
her and see how it goes.
About television. I often feel that my children watch television
when they are bored. Winter has been hard because we can't spend any
time outdoors and we live in a small town where there is little to do
in our community. When my son our daughter ask to watch television I
try to come up with something fun for us to do together. Dance,
color, make cookies, read, etc. They don't want to watch television
as much when we have fun things to do. I do however let them watch
television after we have done a few fun things together. I can't
entertain them all day long. Sometimes thier eyes are glued to the
television (usually when they are tired), but most of the time they
move around, talk, ask questions, sing and so forth. We avoid
channels that aren't kid friendly.
Heather
The high today for us Iowans is negative 6! We are looking foward to
it warming up to the high 20's this week!
how long it has gone on. I hope nobody has felt attacked or have
hurt feelings over any of this. Tolerance, tolerance, tolerance. It
is something I struggle with.
When I decided to unschool I didn't jump right in and let my kids
lead. I think for some of us, the ability to unschool comes in time.
It takes time to dismiss our old ways of thinking and doing.
I know that some of you may not agree witht he way I unschool. I
don't *teach* the basic subjects like Math, Science, History and so
forth. I do however spend a few minutes about two or three days a
week working with my daughter out of a Spanish workbook. She enjoys
it. If she hated it I would stop. Just recently I have decided to
try a few new things to occupy our minds during these long winter
months. A hero a week, where I search out someone who I feel would
interest my daughter. We learn a little about that person. Also, I
am going to try creating a penpal relationship between my daughter
and another relative. She loves recieving mail.
Although my daughter did not inntiate these things, I have taken her
interests in to account and am going to be introducing these ideas to
her and see how it goes.
About television. I often feel that my children watch television
when they are bored. Winter has been hard because we can't spend any
time outdoors and we live in a small town where there is little to do
in our community. When my son our daughter ask to watch television I
try to come up with something fun for us to do together. Dance,
color, make cookies, read, etc. They don't want to watch television
as much when we have fun things to do. I do however let them watch
television after we have done a few fun things together. I can't
entertain them all day long. Sometimes thier eyes are glued to the
television (usually when they are tired), but most of the time they
move around, talk, ask questions, sing and so forth. We avoid
channels that aren't kid friendly.
Heather
The high today for us Iowans is negative 6! We are looking foward to
it warming up to the high 20's this week!
Eric Donato
On Jan 17, 2005, at 12:04 PM, heasue2003 wrote:
interests lying about where she'll find them...
might change tv's "bad-guy" role to a more respectable choice...
Jules.
continuing to have good times unschooling after the paradigm shift!!!
> Although my daughter did not inntiate these things, I have taken hersounds a little like strewing... leaving things related to her
> interests in to account and am going to be introducing these ideas to
> her and see how it goes.
interests lying about where she'll find them...
> I can't entertain them all day long.Me neither!! but I do like to join what they are doing at times...
> Sometimes thier eyes are glued to thehow about watching tv when they aren't tired for the most part, it
> television (usually when they are tired), but most of the time they
> move around, talk, ask questions, sing and so forth.
might change tv's "bad-guy" role to a more respectable choice...
Jules.
continuing to have good times unschooling after the paradigm shift!!!
Angela S
>>>Winter has been hard because we can't spend anytime outdoors and we live in a small town where there is little to do
in our community. >>>>
Can't or don't want to? I ask because we live in Maine and although it's
often very cold (lately in the teens and low twenties but tomorrow is
forecasted to be a high of 7 with wind chill -10 to -20) but we choose to
spend time outdoors each day. This year we have a horse and so we have a
great reason to be out in the cold. We spend at least 2 hours a day outside
and often as much as 4 or 5. Before we had the horse we went outside to
snow show, ski, sled, or just shovel the driveway. It's always been
important for me to spend some time outside each day. I feel better when
I've had the change to get outside, even if only for 30 minutes. Just
because you live in a cold climate doesn't mean that you can't go outside.
Angela
* game-enthusiast@....
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/17/2005 1:09:21 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
heasue2003@... writes:
--Also, I
am going to try creating a penpal relationship between my daughter
and another relative. -=-
================
You could request it, but only they could create it.
-=About television. I often feel that my children watch television
when they are bored.. . .-=-
So?
-=- When my son our daughter ask to watch television I
try to come up with something fun for us to do together. -=-
Why don't you just let them watch TV, and recommend the fun things to do at
other times?
You're basing your schedule on preventing TV.
That makes TV more central to your life than it is to mine, that's for sure.
-=- I do however let them watch
television after we have done a few fun things together. -=-
It's dessert?
It's the candy after the spinach?
-=- Sometimes thier eyes are glued to the
television (usually when they are tired), but most of the time they
move around, talk, ask questions, sing and so forth. -=-
When I read, my eyes are glued to the book.
Right now, my eyes are glued to the screen.
When you use that phrase it's pretty clear you disapprove.
-=-We avoid
channels that aren't kid friendly.
-=-
BE HONEST.
Say "I" when you're talking about yourself.
-=-When I decided to unschool I didn't jump right in and let my kids
lead.=-
I didn't either. We continued to do things together, as we always had.
Your descriptions of the things you're not teaching (worksheets, hero of the
week) sound just like teaching to me.
-=I think for some of us, the ability to unschool comes in time.
It takes time to dismiss our old ways of thinking and doing.
-=-
For all of us, but if you don't move toward it, you won't get there before
your kids are grown.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
heasue2003@... writes:
--Also, I
am going to try creating a penpal relationship between my daughter
and another relative. -=-
================
You could request it, but only they could create it.
-=About television. I often feel that my children watch television
when they are bored.. . .-=-
So?
-=- When my son our daughter ask to watch television I
try to come up with something fun for us to do together. -=-
Why don't you just let them watch TV, and recommend the fun things to do at
other times?
You're basing your schedule on preventing TV.
That makes TV more central to your life than it is to mine, that's for sure.
-=- I do however let them watch
television after we have done a few fun things together. -=-
It's dessert?
It's the candy after the spinach?
-=- Sometimes thier eyes are glued to the
television (usually when they are tired), but most of the time they
move around, talk, ask questions, sing and so forth. -=-
When I read, my eyes are glued to the book.
Right now, my eyes are glued to the screen.
When you use that phrase it's pretty clear you disapprove.
-=-We avoid
channels that aren't kid friendly.
-=-
BE HONEST.
Say "I" when you're talking about yourself.
-=-When I decided to unschool I didn't jump right in and let my kids
lead.=-
I didn't either. We continued to do things together, as we always had.
Your descriptions of the things you're not teaching (worksheets, hero of the
week) sound just like teaching to me.
-=I think for some of us, the ability to unschool comes in time.
It takes time to dismiss our old ways of thinking and doing.
-=-
For all of us, but if you don't move toward it, you won't get there before
your kids are grown.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
heasue2003
---
lying about?????????
Is sitting on the computer with my daughter and looking up Martin
Luther king *leaving things around the house*????
Heather
>When did I say I would be leaving things related to her interest
> sounds a little like strewing... leaving things related to her
> interests lying about where she'll find them...
lying about?????????
Is sitting on the computer with my daughter and looking up Martin
Luther king *leaving things around the house*????
Heather
heasue2003
--- In [email protected], "Angela S" <game-
enthusiast@a...> wrote:
wear mittens. I choose not to take them out because they don't like
it when I do.
Heather
enthusiast@a...> wrote:
> >>>Winter has been hard because we can't spend anydo
> time outdoors and we live in a small town where there is little to
> in our community. >>>>although it's
>
>
>
> Can't or don't want to? I ask because we live in Maine and
> often very cold (lately in the teens and low twenties but tomorrowis
> forecasted to be a high of 7 with wind chill -10 to -20) but wechoose to
> spend time outdoors each day. This year we have a horse and so wehave a
> great reason to be out in the cold. We spend at least 2 hours aday outside
> and often as much as 4 or 5. Before we had the horse we wentoutside to
> snow show, ski, sled, or just shovel the driveway. It's always beenbetter when
> important for me to spend some time outside each day. I feel
> I've had the change to get outside, even if only for 30 minutes.Just
> because you live in a cold climate doesn't mean that you can't gooutside.
>My daughter is 5 and hates the cold. My son is 20 months and won't
> Angela
>
> * game-enthusiast@a...
wear mittens. I choose not to take them out because they don't like
it when I do.
Heather
heasue2003
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
say create, I mean search until we find someone who will write her
back regularly.
bored, why not get out some pots and pans and make music with them.
They can't always express to me that they want me to find something
to do because they have played with what was available.
it is because I have been busy with house work and he doesn't have
anyone to play with ie, bored and needing my attention. So, I try to
play with him and if that wasn't what he wanted, we watch some
television.
and why. My daughter will be the first one to say 'turn the
television channel, I don't like this.'
would be better defined as semi-unschooling. I am a semi-unschooler!
Just letting the group know that I am not exactly like you. By the
way my daughter is the one who asks to do work books. She likes
filling things out and answering questions on paper. I don't do the
workbook with her often enough according to her.
Heather
>I know my daughter will love it, but will the other person? When I
> In a message dated 1/17/2005 1:09:21 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
> heasue2003@y... writes:
>
> --Also, I
> am going to try creating a penpal relationship between my daughter
> and another relative. -=-
>
>
> ================
>
> You could request it, but only they could create it.
say create, I mean search until we find someone who will write her
back regularly.
>television
> -=About television. I often feel that my children watch
> when they are bored.. . .-=-so, If the only reason they are watching television is because thier
>
bored, why not get out some pots and pans and make music with them.
They can't always express to me that they want me to find something
to do because they have played with what was available.
>My 20 month old is the one who asks to watch television and when does
>
> -=- When my son our daughter ask to watch television I
> try to come up with something fun for us to do together. -=-
>
>
>
> -=- I do however let them watch
> television after we have done a few fun things together. -=-
>
> It's dessert?
> It's the candy after the spinach?
it is because I have been busy with house work and he doesn't have
anyone to play with ie, bored and needing my attention. So, I try to
play with him and if that wasn't what he wanted, we watch some
television.
>they
> -=- Sometimes thier eyes are glued to the
> television (usually when they are tired), but most of the time
> move around, talk, ask questions, sing and so forth. -=-Your point is?
>
> When I read, my eyes are glued to the book.
> Right now, my eyes are glued to the screen.
>We as a family have talked about what is okay to watch and what isn't
> When you use that phrase it's pretty clear you disapprove.
>
> -=-We avoid
> channels that aren't kid friendly.
> -=-
>
> BE HONEST.
> Say "I" when you're talking about yourself.
and why. My daughter will be the first one to say 'turn the
television channel, I don't like this.'
>kids
> -=-When I decided to unschool I didn't jump right in and let my
> lead.=-had.
>
> I didn't either. We continued to do things together, as we always
>hero of the
> Your descriptions of the things you're not teaching (worksheets,
> week) sound just like teaching to me.Well then based on your judgement our school outside of public school
would be better defined as semi-unschooling. I am a semi-unschooler!
Just letting the group know that I am not exactly like you. By the
way my daughter is the one who asks to do work books. She likes
filling things out and answering questions on paper. I don't do the
workbook with her often enough according to her.
>before
> -=I think for some of us, the ability to unschool comes in time.
> It takes time to dismiss our old ways of thinking and doing.
> -=-
>
> For all of us, but if you don't move toward it, you won't get there
> your kids are grown.I agree.
Heather
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Eric Donato
On Jan 17, 2005, at 5:15 PM, heasue2003 wrote:
YOU... it's an idea, do what you will with it...
Jules.
> When did I say I would be leaving things related to her interestI said that strewing is leaving things out for HER to discover, not
> lying about?????????
YOU... it's an idea, do what you will with it...
Jules.
heasue2003
--- In [email protected], Eric Donato <edonato953@e...>
wrote:
Maybe I have taken it wrong.
Heather
wrote:
> On Jan 17, 2005, at 5:15 PM, heasue2003 wrote:I feel attacked. If you are not attacking me, then let me know.
>
> > When did I say I would be leaving things related to her interest
> > lying about?????????
>
> I said that strewing is leaving things out for HER to discover, not
> YOU... it's an idea, do what you will with it...
>
> Jules.
Maybe I have taken it wrong.
Heather
Eric Donato
hmmm... I am not attacking you...
Jules.
Jules.
On Jan 17, 2005, at 6:06 PM, heasue2003 wrote:
> I feel attacked. If you are not attacking me, then let me know.
> Maybe I have taken it wrong.
>
> Heather
heasue2003
> hmmm... I am not attacking you...I felt that you were because of the way you picked apart my post and
commented on everything I wrote implying that we unschool wrong, or
don't do things the way we should.
Do you think I am wrong? Did you intend to let me know that you
think I am wrong? Why?
Heather
Gold Standard
>>I feel attacked. If you are not attacking me, then let me know.Hi Heather,
>>Maybe I have taken it wrong.<< Heather
This list tends to give hard-core advice about "radical" unschooling. If you
post something that gives people ideas for suggesting how it could be done
closer to radical unschooling, that is most likely what will happen. It is
not personal to you, though it can feel that way if you are the original
poster. I don't keep people and posts straight, and I imagine that most
people on this list don't either, so tomorrow I will not remember who said
what on the list. But I will remember the ideas. If it works for you, try
reading people's responses and sit on them for a while. They are meant only
to bring the thread closer to radical unschooling. I have learned so much by
doing this. I have had my moments of feeling attacked! But I am VERY
thankful to the people who challenged my thinking and gave me food for
thought. Even though it wasn't pleasant, it made positive change in our
home.
Jacki
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/17/05 6:18:04 PM, heasue2003@... writes:
<< When did I say I would be leaving things related to her interest
lying about?????????
<<Is sitting on the computer with my daughter and looking up Martin
Luther king *leaving things arou the house*???? >>
Be cool.
ZBe calm.
We're trying to talk about unschooling here.
-=-My daughter is 5 and hates the cold. My son is 20 months and won't
wear mittens. I choose not to take them out because they don't like
it when I do. -=-
Well this is important information. Your daughter would only have been
schoolage this year, and you have a baby. It is hard to get out with kids that
little.
It's also hard to speak with much experience and authority about unschooling,
or the value of reading in the life of a child who has learned to read on her
own.
-=-so, If the only reason they are watching television is because thier
bored, why not get out some pots and pans and make music with them. -=-
Because if they want to bang on pots and pans they might ask to do that.
And banging on pots and pans isn't NEARLY as musical as any TV show with
music.
And if you see high value in banging on a pot, take a pan and a spoon in
there and let them bang along with the music. Get some good videos of musicians
performing. Raffi in Concert is one my kids liked a lot.
-=-> When I read, my eyes are glued to the book.
That you said it as though having eyes glued to something one was interested
in was a bad thing. If he's totally engaged with a television program, but
you refer to it as "eyes glued," you're showing a disdainfully judgmental
attitude toward a sincere interest of his. This doesn't lead to partnership, but to
antagonism.
-=-We as a family have talked about what is okay to watch and what isn't
and why. My daughter will be the first one to say 'turn the
television channel, I don't like this.'-=-
A 20 month old has discussed this?
If a five year old agrees with a mother on "what is okay to watch," I'm
guessing she just agreed figuring that was her only option. None of my kids have
ever watched a show they didn't want to watch, but they don't have to say
"turn the channel," they can get up and walk away and do something else, or if
one is the only one there, they can push "off" and do something else.
-=-Well then based on your judgement our school outside of public school
would be better defined as semi-unschooling. -=-
If you have ANY "school outside of" anything else, you have school at home.
"Semi unschooling" is not unschooling that will last. It's a toe in the
water. Toe in the water isn't being in the water.
Sandra
<< When did I say I would be leaving things related to her interest
lying about?????????
<<Is sitting on the computer with my daughter and looking up Martin
Luther king *leaving things arou the house*???? >>
Be cool.
ZBe calm.
We're trying to talk about unschooling here.
-=-My daughter is 5 and hates the cold. My son is 20 months and won't
wear mittens. I choose not to take them out because they don't like
it when I do. -=-
Well this is important information. Your daughter would only have been
schoolage this year, and you have a baby. It is hard to get out with kids that
little.
It's also hard to speak with much experience and authority about unschooling,
or the value of reading in the life of a child who has learned to read on her
own.
-=-so, If the only reason they are watching television is because thier
bored, why not get out some pots and pans and make music with them. -=-
Because if they want to bang on pots and pans they might ask to do that.
And banging on pots and pans isn't NEARLY as musical as any TV show with
music.
And if you see high value in banging on a pot, take a pan and a spoon in
there and let them bang along with the music. Get some good videos of musicians
performing. Raffi in Concert is one my kids liked a lot.
-=-> When I read, my eyes are glued to the book.
> Right now, my eyes are glued to the screen.<<Your point is? -=-
That you said it as though having eyes glued to something one was interested
in was a bad thing. If he's totally engaged with a television program, but
you refer to it as "eyes glued," you're showing a disdainfully judgmental
attitude toward a sincere interest of his. This doesn't lead to partnership, but to
antagonism.
-=-We as a family have talked about what is okay to watch and what isn't
and why. My daughter will be the first one to say 'turn the
television channel, I don't like this.'-=-
A 20 month old has discussed this?
If a five year old agrees with a mother on "what is okay to watch," I'm
guessing she just agreed figuring that was her only option. None of my kids have
ever watched a show they didn't want to watch, but they don't have to say
"turn the channel," they can get up and walk away and do something else, or if
one is the only one there, they can push "off" and do something else.
-=-Well then based on your judgement our school outside of public school
would be better defined as semi-unschooling. -=-
If you have ANY "school outside of" anything else, you have school at home.
"Semi unschooling" is not unschooling that will last. It's a toe in the
water. Toe in the water isn't being in the water.
Sandra
Eric Donato
On Jan 17, 2005, at 7:52 PM, heasue2003 wrote:
I can't speak for you, but it seems as though this intense feeling you
have is from the many posts from various contributors that question
what you wrote... I cut and paste words from posts so that I can
respond to a specific part of it, and the reply is my opinion... IMO,
you took the Strewing comment as an affront.. strewing is a technique I
use to offer my kids more info on their current interests, it's not a
personal attack...
you so... I read the archives to see how the thread played out, but I
still don't get your hurt and anger...
Jules.
> I felt that you were because of the way you picked apart my post andReally? I don't feel angry toward you, nor do I want to attack you...
> commented on everything I wrote implying that we unschool wrong, or
> don't do things the way we should.
I can't speak for you, but it seems as though this intense feeling you
have is from the many posts from various contributors that question
what you wrote... I cut and paste words from posts so that I can
respond to a specific part of it, and the reply is my opinion... IMO,
you took the Strewing comment as an affront.. strewing is a technique I
use to offer my kids more info on their current interests, it's not a
personal attack...
> Do you think I am wrong? Did you intend to let me know that youNope and Nope... I don't know why you feel like I personally attacked
> think I am wrong? Why?
you so... I read the archives to see how the thread played out, but I
still don't get your hurt and anger...
Jules.
heasue2003
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
really loud annoying noises. I care not about the value of banging on
pots and pans. It may not be a professional concert, but it is music
they are creating.
watching television and not moving about. I don't have any negative
association with the term "eyes glued".
No, of course my 20 month old and I didn't sit down and talk about
what is appropriate to watch on television. I am a VERY religous
person with strong feelings about what I consider to be inappropriate
television for my children and myself. Our family has talked about
what isn't appropriate and why. Chelsea, my daughter, is eager to do
the right thing and is quick to tell me when something inapporpriate
is on.
way I want to. Forgive me.
Putting your toe in the water is better than not putting your toe in
the water at all.
I don't really care if I am in the water. Mabye I am standing in the
water up to my knees. Maybe some day I will dive in. Maybe some day
I won't. Who knows. For me it is not about being an *unschooler*.
>won't
> In a message dated 1/17/05 6:18:04 PM, heasue2003@y... writes:
>
> << When did I say I would be leaving things related to her interest
>
> lying about?????????
>
>
> <<Is sitting on the computer with my daughter and looking up Martin
>
> Luther king *leaving things arou the house*???? >>
>
> Be cool.
>
> ZBe calm.
> We're trying to talk about unschooling here.
>
> -=-My daughter is 5 and hates the cold. My son is 20 months and
>like
> wear mittens. I choose not to take them out because they don't
>been
> it when I do. -=-
>
> Well this is important information. Your daughter would only have
> schoolage this year, and you have a baby. It is hard to get outwith kids that
> little.unschooling,
>
> It's also hard to speak with much experience and authority about
> or the value of reading in the life of a child who has learned toread on her
> own.thier
>
> -=-so, If the only reason they are watching television is because
>them. -=-
> bored, why not get out some pots and pans and make music with
>that.
> Because if they want to bang on pots and pans they might ask to do
> And banging on pots and pans isn't NEARLY as musical as any TV showwith
> music.spoon in
> And if you see high value in banging on a pot, take a pan and a
> there and let them bang along with the music. Get some good videosof musicians
> performing. Raffi in Concert is one my kids liked a lot.Banging on pots and pans is a way for my kids to have fun and make
really loud annoying noises. I care not about the value of banging on
pots and pans. It may not be a professional concert, but it is music
they are creating.
>interested
> -=-> When I read, my eyes are glued to the book.
>
> > Right now, my eyes are glued to the screen.
>
>
> <<Your point is? -=-
>
> That you said it as though having eyes glued to something one was
> in was a bad thing. If he's totally engaged with a televisionprogram, but
> you refer to it as "eyes glued," you're showing a disdainfullyjudgmental
> attitude toward a sincere interest of his. This doesn't lead topartnership, but to
> antagonism.It was how I choice to express the way my children look when they are
watching television and not moving about. I don't have any negative
association with the term "eyes glued".
>isn't
> -=-We as a family have talked about what is okay to watch and what
>I'm
> and why. My daughter will be the first one to say 'turn the
>
> television channel, I don't like this.'-=-
>
> A 20 month old has discussed this?
> If a five year old agrees with a mother on "what is okay to watch,"
> guessing she just agreed figuring that was her only option. Noneof my kids have
> ever watched a show they didn't want to watch, but they don't haveto say
> "turn the channel," they can get up and walk away and do somethingelse, or if
> one is the only one there, they can push "off" and do somethingelse.
No, of course my 20 month old and I didn't sit down and talk about
what is appropriate to watch on television. I am a VERY religous
person with strong feelings about what I consider to be inappropriate
television for my children and myself. Our family has talked about
what isn't appropriate and why. Chelsea, my daughter, is eager to do
the right thing and is quick to tell me when something inapporpriate
is on.
> -=-Well then based on your judgement our school outside of publicschool
>at home.
> would be better defined as semi-unschooling. -=-
>
> If you have ANY "school outside of" anything else, you have school
>in the
> "Semi unschooling" is not unschooling that will last. It's a toe
> water. Toe in the water isn't being in the water.*Our school* means our life at home. I don't always word things the
way I want to. Forgive me.
Putting your toe in the water is better than not putting your toe in
the water at all.
I don't really care if I am in the water. Mabye I am standing in the
water up to my knees. Maybe some day I will dive in. Maybe some day
I won't. Who knows. For me it is not about being an *unschooler*.
> Sandra
heasue2003
--
attacking me. I sometimes take things the wrong way.
heather
>attacked
> > Do you think I am wrong? Did you intend to let me know that you
> > think I am wrong? Why?
>
> Nope and Nope... I don't know why you feel like I personally
> you so... I read the archives to see how the thread played out, butI
> still don't get your hurt and anger...I am a sensitive person. That is why I asked wether or not you were
>
> Jules.
attacking me. I sometimes take things the wrong way.
heather
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/17/05 9:37:25 PM, heasue2003@... writes:
<< *Our school* means our life at home. I don't always word things the
way I want to. >>
If you hadn't thought it, you couldn't have written it.
If you continue to think of your life at home as your school, you'll have a
hard time getting to unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
Words do make a difference.
The terminology we use when we write or think is evidence of how we feel
about things, and if you want to change the way you feel, those words should be
examined.
-=-I don't really care if I am in the water. Mabye I am standing in the
water up to my knees. Maybe some day I will dive in. Maybe some day
I won't. Who knows. For me it is not about being an *unschooler*. -=-
For the sake of your children and the potential joy you could have in your
home, people here will encourage you to unschool. If you don't want to be
encouraged to unschool, why would you have chosen to join this list?
Sandra
<< *Our school* means our life at home. I don't always word things the
way I want to. >>
If you hadn't thought it, you couldn't have written it.
If you continue to think of your life at home as your school, you'll have a
hard time getting to unschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
Words do make a difference.
The terminology we use when we write or think is evidence of how we feel
about things, and if you want to change the way you feel, those words should be
examined.
-=-I don't really care if I am in the water. Mabye I am standing in the
water up to my knees. Maybe some day I will dive in. Maybe some day
I won't. Who knows. For me it is not about being an *unschooler*. -=-
For the sake of your children and the potential joy you could have in your
home, people here will encourage you to unschool. If you don't want to be
encouraged to unschool, why would you have chosen to join this list?
Sandra
Kristina Kahney
>< Chelsea, my daughter, is eager to do the right thing><Right? What's right? By whose standards? I just don't even care for the terms "right" and "wrong" anymore. They don't serve me in any area of my life. EVERYTHING is a choice, just a choice, not "right" choices and "wrong" choices. Little Johnny hit his brother "BAD" choice....Little Suzie said please "GOOD" choice...ugh. Your daughter is probably doing what she thinks you want her to. I don't see how that helps her gain the autonomy to figure out what she chooses for *herself*. Just my thoughts, not an attack.
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
heasue2003
I joined this list for support. Not to be picked apart. If you want
to support me then give me advice. Tell me what you would do or how
you think, not how what I am doing is wrong and not unschooling.
to support me then give me advice. Tell me what you would do or how
you think, not how what I am doing is wrong and not unschooling.
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 1/17/05 9:37:25 PM, heasue2003@y... writes:
>
> << *Our school* means our life at home. I don't always word things
the
>
> way I want to. >>
>
> If you hadn't thought it, you couldn't have written it.
>
> If you continue to think of your life at home as your school,
you'll have a
> hard time getting to unschooling.
I don't always use words the way they should be and therefor I come
across as saying something when I am trying to say something else.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
> http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
>
> Words do make a difference.
> The terminology we use when we write or think is evidence of how we
feel
> about things, and if you want to change the way you feel, those
words should be
> examined.
>
> -=-I don't really care if I am in the water. Mabye I am standing
in the
>
> water up to my knees. Maybe some day I will dive in. Maybe some
day
>
> I won't. Who knows. For me it is not about being an
*unschooler*. -=-
>
> For the sake of your children and the potential joy you could have
in your
> home, people here will encourage you to unschool. If you don't
want to be
> encouraged to unschool, why would you have chosen to join this list?
I would love for you to encourage me to unschool. You have yet to do
so. Instead you have picked apart everything that i have wrote and
told me how I am wrong. how is that encouraging. Encourage me by
sharing with me your ideas, the way you do things, how you feel.
Don't tell me that I am not unschooling.
> Sandra
pam sorooshian
On Jan 17, 2005, at 7:52 PM, heasue2003 wrote:
don't take it as an attack, in fact, take it as a compliment that
someone finds your post filled with enough substance to bother to take
the time to respond to every bit of it.
think) you think that you deciding what your child is going to learn
this week is unschooling, I think that's inaccurate. I don't think it
is wrong for you to DO it. I'm not a believer that unschooling is the
"right" thing for absolutely everybody.
-pam
>Responding to one bit at a time in a post is just a style of posting -
>> hmmm... I am not attacking you...
>
>
> I felt that you were because of the way you picked apart my post and
> commented on everything I wrote implying that we unschool wrong, or
> don't do things the way we should.
don't take it as an attack, in fact, take it as a compliment that
someone finds your post filled with enough substance to bother to take
the time to respond to every bit of it.
>IF (see the big IF that is there because I'm not sure what you really
> Do you think I am wrong? Did you intend to let me know that you
> think I am wrong? Why?
think) you think that you deciding what your child is going to learn
this week is unschooling, I think that's inaccurate. I don't think it
is wrong for you to DO it. I'm not a believer that unschooling is the
"right" thing for absolutely everybody.
-pam
Brandie in TN
Heather,
As I read your first post of today, my first thought was "she doesn't quite get unschooling yet". I don't mean this to be a slam against you -- many of us were in that place at one time. I know I was. As I read more of your words, I totally saw myself from about 15 months ago. I also felt I was doing a great job in having child-led learning -- and while I wasn't doing a bad job, I was still a ways off in truly understanding what unschooling is. I thought I knew...but I didn't know. I joined an unschooling discussion list (not this one) and found myself argumentative with the members. I was determined to stand tall against the members who disagreed with me that we were not really unschooling -- I wanted them to see that not every unschooling family had to be the way they shared. I became very frustrated and even angry when members would point out that my views didn't seem to "fit" with their definitions. I said almost every single thing you said in your posts. Within a short
time, I unsubscribed, never thinking that I would join again.
I continued on, and eventually, I REALLY got unschooling. I really, really wanted to learn more about this way of life, so I gradually embraced much of ideas about unschooling. I continued to read at unschooling.com on a regular basis. I checked out the Unschooling Handbook from the library. I would read unschooling articles on various websites. In my case, I did see it -- finally. I imagine there are others who get upset on unschooling lists who never do "get unschooling", but I imagine that they never really wanted to understand it. I did. And after I left the list, I would often think back to things that Sandra Dodd and others wrote. I never thought that those things I disagreed with, would be something I would feel so strongly about that I now even write this response to you!
Today, I am a member of that same list I left many months ago. I rejoined...a little apprehensive at first because I left so frustrated with those there! But I rejoined and, as the list guidelines say, I read for 2 weeks before writing in. During the two weeks, I realized that WOW! I honestly agree with the things that are posted here!
This is not to say that I agree with absolutely everything posted on this list or any of the other unschooling lists -- we all have our differences, but when it comes to truly unschooling, you will find that many of us have a lot in common.
I hope you don't take my post as an attack -- and I do realize that you may be (probably are) very different than me. I just wanted to share my story, since much of what you write sounded like me months ago. If you wish to continue to learn about unschooling, I hope you will continue here -- keep reading the posts -- and find even more places online to learn about unschooling.
Brandie
http://www.scrapbookingwithbrandie.com
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As I read your first post of today, my first thought was "she doesn't quite get unschooling yet". I don't mean this to be a slam against you -- many of us were in that place at one time. I know I was. As I read more of your words, I totally saw myself from about 15 months ago. I also felt I was doing a great job in having child-led learning -- and while I wasn't doing a bad job, I was still a ways off in truly understanding what unschooling is. I thought I knew...but I didn't know. I joined an unschooling discussion list (not this one) and found myself argumentative with the members. I was determined to stand tall against the members who disagreed with me that we were not really unschooling -- I wanted them to see that not every unschooling family had to be the way they shared. I became very frustrated and even angry when members would point out that my views didn't seem to "fit" with their definitions. I said almost every single thing you said in your posts. Within a short
time, I unsubscribed, never thinking that I would join again.
I continued on, and eventually, I REALLY got unschooling. I really, really wanted to learn more about this way of life, so I gradually embraced much of ideas about unschooling. I continued to read at unschooling.com on a regular basis. I checked out the Unschooling Handbook from the library. I would read unschooling articles on various websites. In my case, I did see it -- finally. I imagine there are others who get upset on unschooling lists who never do "get unschooling", but I imagine that they never really wanted to understand it. I did. And after I left the list, I would often think back to things that Sandra Dodd and others wrote. I never thought that those things I disagreed with, would be something I would feel so strongly about that I now even write this response to you!
Today, I am a member of that same list I left many months ago. I rejoined...a little apprehensive at first because I left so frustrated with those there! But I rejoined and, as the list guidelines say, I read for 2 weeks before writing in. During the two weeks, I realized that WOW! I honestly agree with the things that are posted here!
This is not to say that I agree with absolutely everything posted on this list or any of the other unschooling lists -- we all have our differences, but when it comes to truly unschooling, you will find that many of us have a lot in common.
I hope you don't take my post as an attack -- and I do realize that you may be (probably are) very different than me. I just wanted to share my story, since much of what you write sounded like me months ago. If you wish to continue to learn about unschooling, I hope you will continue here -- keep reading the posts -- and find even more places online to learn about unschooling.
Brandie
http://www.scrapbookingwithbrandie.com
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/17/2005 10:48:52 PM Central Standard Time,
heasue2003@... writes:
I am a sensitive person. That is why I asked wether or not you were
attacking me. I sometimes take things the wrong way.
heather
~~~
Heather, you're not being attacked. You took what Jules said about strewing
totally opposite of what was meant. Strewing is an important part of
unschooling. I think Jules' comment was meant to be encouraging.
It's been a day since these posts were written, so I hope you've had a good
night's sleep and can see them in a new light. Your posts have been
defensive, and I understand why, but it might be best if you just read and didn't
post for a day or two; and go to the archives and read the posts again. You
might get a new perspective that way.
You're really in a good position to learn about unschooling. You have small
children, which means you can spend time learning about unschooling before
there's any pressure to put them in school. I'd encourage you, though, to
stop thinking of your home as a "school". It wasn't a school when your little
girl was born, and it doesn't become one when she turns school age. It should
just be home, with all the peaceful, loving learning that has been going on
since there have been kids there. Keep that going.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
heasue2003@... writes:
I am a sensitive person. That is why I asked wether or not you were
attacking me. I sometimes take things the wrong way.
heather
~~~
Heather, you're not being attacked. You took what Jules said about strewing
totally opposite of what was meant. Strewing is an important part of
unschooling. I think Jules' comment was meant to be encouraging.
It's been a day since these posts were written, so I hope you've had a good
night's sleep and can see them in a new light. Your posts have been
defensive, and I understand why, but it might be best if you just read and didn't
post for a day or two; and go to the archives and read the posts again. You
might get a new perspective that way.
You're really in a good position to learn about unschooling. You have small
children, which means you can spend time learning about unschooling before
there's any pressure to put them in school. I'd encourage you, though, to
stop thinking of your home as a "school". It wasn't a school when your little
girl was born, and it doesn't become one when she turns school age. It should
just be home, with all the peaceful, loving learning that has been going on
since there have been kids there. Keep that going.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristina Kahney
I need some help, if you don't mind. A little background on me....I have 5 kids (7,5,3,23 months and almost 3 months). When my oldest was around 3 I found a local community of Waldorf homeschoolers and I thought I'd found the non-mainstream life I was looking for. All I knew at the time was I didn't like much of the way I was raised and was looking for something different. So, I spent 3 yrs living that lifestyle and then when my oldest was about 6 I started to realize that many of the choices I was making was just because they were "Waldorfy" choices and was not really being led by my kids or myself. So, I started to soul search and came across unschooling and non coersive parenting, and started my deschooling process. I've read this, and other lists, for about a year now and our family has made pretty drastic changes with wonderful results.
Now, my friends are beginning to ask me about these choices and we have a thread going on our local moms list about letting go of control and food issues came up. When I mom said that sugar is to kids what drugs are to teens I had to respond and posted a thought out response with links to Sandra's website as well as some email from Pam and Sandra (with their permission). I got fairly blasted and I could use some help articulating into words some of these concepts. I work from a feeling level and, being fairly new to living like this myself, feel like I could use some back up before I write my response. So, here's some of what I got back..
*******************************************************************************
I think trying to give complete freedom of choices is like saying when they are teenagers I should spend my money on cigarretes and alcohol & tell them to just make wise choices. They are children & are not fully capable of making all of their own choices, which is why there is an adult to help them.
Over Christmas my FIL (a very "mainstream" kinda guy) actually shared with us that he supports what we are doing b/c he believes 100% that endless hours of video games and a very high sugar diet (fruity pebbles for breakfast, countless Mountain Dew, and candy) caused Brian's epilepsy. Upon our return home, my mother was giving me grief, as usual, and my father butted in that he also agrees fully as he thinks my nieces add are directly related to how much tv she watches. As many people say "you can just see it". Even the AAP came out with a statement against any tv viewing for children under 2 because it has been proven to cause structural changes in the brain during a crucial development time.
I write this not to persuade anyone, just to explain why I think the same & yet differently.
Another reason I believe we see things as we do comes from the way we ourselves were raised. It seems each generation sways to the other side of how they were raised, or is that just my perception? I was raised in a very free home. I was given free reign over endless candy, sodas, home baked sweets and tv/ video games. As a teenager I was given lots of money & a car & a "curfew" which was never enforced. They cared, dont get me wrong, they just had a very misguided or misplaced I suppose, trust. It took years of illness, fatigue & various health problems before I changed my diet and feel awesome. It took alot of work for me to maintain any form of self-discipline, I am very used to doing what I want, when I want & not realizing any consequences. Brian is too, so I suppose we both relate to that in the same way.
Perhaps we also have an addictive personality disorder within my family ;) When we had tv, my children wanted to watch it every waking minute. If I said no, it was an all day fight. Our lives revolved around whether or not they could watch tv. Since its been gone, they have never once asked or questioned. Its just no longer an option. They watch it at friends houses and grandparents, etc. They, for the first time, disappear for hours on end in their rooms or outside - my daughter even gets boxes & junk to set up little playscapes with her dolls and animals. These things never happened before. For us, these are the right decisions because of it. <<<
******************************************************************************************************
How might you respond to this? There are things I have to say, and I've forwarded on Pam's great post on the economics of limiting tv (with her permission), but I want to write a well thought out post because there are also many on this list that like what I'm doing with my kids and want to learn more. I want those who might be led to an unschooling lifestyle to get a good representation, does this make sense? I don't want it left with the feeling that I've chosen total unruliness for my kids. Granted, with 5 kids, our house often feels like a 3 ring circus, but it's happy and joyful and it's working for us.
Anyhow...off to change babies diapers....if anyone has the time to give me a few thougts that I might want to consider before writing my response I would be SO appreciative. I'm not trying to change anybody's minds here, it's not an unschooling list, but want the ideas to be well represented with what I have to say.
Thank you so much,
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Now, my friends are beginning to ask me about these choices and we have a thread going on our local moms list about letting go of control and food issues came up. When I mom said that sugar is to kids what drugs are to teens I had to respond and posted a thought out response with links to Sandra's website as well as some email from Pam and Sandra (with their permission). I got fairly blasted and I could use some help articulating into words some of these concepts. I work from a feeling level and, being fairly new to living like this myself, feel like I could use some back up before I write my response. So, here's some of what I got back..
*******************************************************************************
>>>While I am completely in support of children's choices & freedoms, I also think their are limits to those acceptable choices. I have come to the conclusion that this is based on what is right for each family based on beliefs, habits, etc. What works for me wouldnt work for a parent who eats sweets or watches tv, they could not take those choices away from their children (they could, but it wouldnt work very well). For me, sugar is completely unnecesary on a day to day basis & I believe it to be quite harmful. I think it plays a major role in our modern epidemic of chronic illness. I therefore, refuse to spend our hard earned money on something like that (except on occasions). However, they still get a great deal of choices. If they want yogurt (plain of course!) for lunch instead of the meal, ok. If they choose to eat at 2 instead of 12, so be it. They frequently peruse the garden while outside and feast on so much veggies & herbs that they do not eat the snacks I prepare forthem. Great. When they want a beverage, they choose from various fermented, yummy beverages I make - kombucha, water kefir, milk kefir, ginger beer (its not really alcoholic!).
I think trying to give complete freedom of choices is like saying when they are teenagers I should spend my money on cigarretes and alcohol & tell them to just make wise choices. They are children & are not fully capable of making all of their own choices, which is why there is an adult to help them.
Over Christmas my FIL (a very "mainstream" kinda guy) actually shared with us that he supports what we are doing b/c he believes 100% that endless hours of video games and a very high sugar diet (fruity pebbles for breakfast, countless Mountain Dew, and candy) caused Brian's epilepsy. Upon our return home, my mother was giving me grief, as usual, and my father butted in that he also agrees fully as he thinks my nieces add are directly related to how much tv she watches. As many people say "you can just see it". Even the AAP came out with a statement against any tv viewing for children under 2 because it has been proven to cause structural changes in the brain during a crucial development time.
I write this not to persuade anyone, just to explain why I think the same & yet differently.
Another reason I believe we see things as we do comes from the way we ourselves were raised. It seems each generation sways to the other side of how they were raised, or is that just my perception? I was raised in a very free home. I was given free reign over endless candy, sodas, home baked sweets and tv/ video games. As a teenager I was given lots of money & a car & a "curfew" which was never enforced. They cared, dont get me wrong, they just had a very misguided or misplaced I suppose, trust. It took years of illness, fatigue & various health problems before I changed my diet and feel awesome. It took alot of work for me to maintain any form of self-discipline, I am very used to doing what I want, when I want & not realizing any consequences. Brian is too, so I suppose we both relate to that in the same way.
Perhaps we also have an addictive personality disorder within my family ;) When we had tv, my children wanted to watch it every waking minute. If I said no, it was an all day fight. Our lives revolved around whether or not they could watch tv. Since its been gone, they have never once asked or questioned. Its just no longer an option. They watch it at friends houses and grandparents, etc. They, for the first time, disappear for hours on end in their rooms or outside - my daughter even gets boxes & junk to set up little playscapes with her dolls and animals. These things never happened before. For us, these are the right decisions because of it. <<<
******************************************************************************************************
How might you respond to this? There are things I have to say, and I've forwarded on Pam's great post on the economics of limiting tv (with her permission), but I want to write a well thought out post because there are also many on this list that like what I'm doing with my kids and want to learn more. I want those who might be led to an unschooling lifestyle to get a good representation, does this make sense? I don't want it left with the feeling that I've chosen total unruliness for my kids. Granted, with 5 kids, our house often feels like a 3 ring circus, but it's happy and joyful and it's working for us.
Anyhow...off to change babies diapers....if anyone has the time to give me a few thougts that I might want to consider before writing my response I would be SO appreciative. I'm not trying to change anybody's minds here, it's not an unschooling list, but want the ideas to be well represented with what I have to say.
Thank you so much,
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
[this is a quote from something from another list, not from a member of this
one, just in case anyone's thinking she missed a weird turn <g>]
I think trying to give complete freedom of choices is like saying when they
are teenagers I should spend my money on cigarretes and alcohol & tell them to
just make wise choices.
It probably does seem like that to someone who's pretty sure the only thing
between her child and a world of debauched gutter-life is her rules and control.
Marty's birthday was last week. He was singing some birthday song about some
particular liquor (I don't even remember now) and I said, "Hey, we have some
of that. You want some?" He laughed, and said no.
My kids could try cigarettes. They have a couple of friends who smoke.
Instead, they say "Why do you do that? It's expensive and nasty."
How could they get there without rules?
Because rules are replaced with REAL honest information.
We have gallons of liquor in dusty bottles, unlocked, half of it in plain
view, in a room in the back of our house. Keith's brother (my brother in law),
whose kids are over-controlled Baptist teens, had stories of them stealing
liquor and replacing it with water so it would be at the same level, and him
having to spend some money on a locking cabinet.
There's where money will be spent if parents are too controlling: on lawyers
and therapists
-=- Even the AAP came out with a statement against any tv viewing for
children under 2 because it has been proven to cause structural changes in the brain
during a crucial development time.
-=-
Proven? How many babies' brains did they cut open to prove THAT?
Or did they have rats watching TV?
-=-When we had tv, my children wanted to watch it every waking minute. If I
said no, it was an all day fight. -=-
You might show her this (or not):
http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet
Cliched exaggerations like "every waking minute" and "all day fight" are
indications of stereotyping behavior and exaggerating, instead of really being
with and looking at children lens-free.
-=- I don't want it left with the feeling that I've chosen total unruliness
for my kids. Granted, with 5 kids, our house often feels like a 3 ring circus,
but it's happy and joyful and it's working for us.
-=-
You could close off the topic by saying though people predict total
unruliness, that's not the reality and those who want more information could look
here... and list some webpages or lists or forums, maybe.
Another possible tack to take might be to say that if someone's main priority
is health food or a clean house, or keeping up with the neighbors or making
in-laws happy, that will inform all other choices. If someone's priority is
their children's peace and joy, choices will be different.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
one, just in case anyone's thinking she missed a weird turn <g>]
I think trying to give complete freedom of choices is like saying when they
are teenagers I should spend my money on cigarretes and alcohol & tell them to
just make wise choices.
It probably does seem like that to someone who's pretty sure the only thing
between her child and a world of debauched gutter-life is her rules and control.
Marty's birthday was last week. He was singing some birthday song about some
particular liquor (I don't even remember now) and I said, "Hey, we have some
of that. You want some?" He laughed, and said no.
My kids could try cigarettes. They have a couple of friends who smoke.
Instead, they say "Why do you do that? It's expensive and nasty."
How could they get there without rules?
Because rules are replaced with REAL honest information.
We have gallons of liquor in dusty bottles, unlocked, half of it in plain
view, in a room in the back of our house. Keith's brother (my brother in law),
whose kids are over-controlled Baptist teens, had stories of them stealing
liquor and replacing it with water so it would be at the same level, and him
having to spend some money on a locking cabinet.
There's where money will be spent if parents are too controlling: on lawyers
and therapists
-=- Even the AAP came out with a statement against any tv viewing for
children under 2 because it has been proven to cause structural changes in the brain
during a crucial development time.
-=-
Proven? How many babies' brains did they cut open to prove THAT?
Or did they have rats watching TV?
-=-When we had tv, my children wanted to watch it every waking minute. If I
said no, it was an all day fight. -=-
You might show her this (or not):
http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet
Cliched exaggerations like "every waking minute" and "all day fight" are
indications of stereotyping behavior and exaggerating, instead of really being
with and looking at children lens-free.
-=- I don't want it left with the feeling that I've chosen total unruliness
for my kids. Granted, with 5 kids, our house often feels like a 3 ring circus,
but it's happy and joyful and it's working for us.
-=-
You could close off the topic by saying though people predict total
unruliness, that's not the reality and those who want more information could look
here... and list some webpages or lists or forums, maybe.
Another possible tack to take might be to say that if someone's main priority
is health food or a clean house, or keeping up with the neighbors or making
in-laws happy, that will inform all other choices. If someone's priority is
their children's peace and joy, choices will be different.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela S
>>>For me, sugar is completely unnecesary on a day to day basis & I believeit to be quite harmful. I think it plays a major role in our modern epidemic
of chronic illness. I therefore, refuse to spend our hard earned money on
something like that (except on occasions).>>>
Often times the things that have been restricted in childhood are the things
that adults binge on just because no one is telling them they can't.
Children who are given a free rein on foods, in a healthy atmosphere, learn
to self regulate and don't have to spend their adulthoods trying to overcome
food issues cause by restrictions.
>>>I think trying to give complete freedom of choices is like saying whenthey are teenagers I should spend my money on cigarretes and alcohol & tell
them to just make wise choices. They are children & are not fully capable of
making all of their own choices, which is why there is an adult to help
them. >>>
Does she feel that respected teenagers who have been given information and
choice will automatically want to smoke and drink? How did she draw that
conclusion?
>>>Over Christmas my FIL (a very "mainstream" kinda guy) actually sharedwith us that he supports what we are doing b/c he believes 100% that endless
hours of video games and a very high sugar diet (fruity pebbles for
breakfast, countless Mountain Dew, and candy) caused Brian's epilepsy>>>
I'd be shocked if there were any evidence to support that sugar laden foods
cause epilepsy.
>>>. Upon our return home, my mother was giving me grief, as usual, and myfather butted in that he also agrees fully as he thinks my nieces add are
directly related to how much tv she watches.>>>
Does this child have loving caring adults in her life who interact with her
on a regular basis? Is she public schooled and needing to unwind from
school? Does she get any exercise? There are a million unknowns in this
example. Does she really even have ADD? How many children are actually
medically diagnosed with ADD? From what I've heard most are just medicated
based on a report of not concentrating (on boring repetitive busy work) or
hyperactivity. (it's not normal for children to sit at a desk all day.)
>>> As many people say "you can just see it". Even the AAP came out with astatement against any tv viewing for children under 2 because it has been
proven to cause structural changes in the brain during a crucial development
time. >>>
I've seen children on TV who spend the bulk of their day watching TV with
the parents just doing there own thing, and then complaining that the
children do nothing but watch TV. One doctor Phil episode had a toddler who
just sat there all day, supposedly, and freaked out when the TV was turned
off. Where were the parents? What were they thinking? Why didn't they
interact with their child? My kids have free rein on TV. But we spend most
of the day doing other things. We do watch TV and generally we watch it
together in the evening and we like TV. But we also play games, ride our
horse, go outside, visit friends, read books together, cook, eat, play, and
on and on. I don't spend the whole day ignoring my children and they don't
spend the whole day watching TV. Why would they choose that over all the
other options? TV is great sometimes, but life is way more interesting most
of the time.
>>>. It took years of illness, fatigue & various health problems before Ichanged my diet and feel awesome. It took alot of work for me to maintain
any form of self-discipline, I am very used to doing what I want, when I
want & not realizing any consequences. Brian is too, so I suppose we both
relate to that in the same way. >>>
But isn't it nice to have a choice? Look, even though she had a childhood
of free rein on sweets, she, as an adult, has chosen to eat healthy foods.
How could that happen? Does she think that there won't be any consequences
for her children coming from a home where sweets were off limits? Maybe
they will spend their adulthoods binging on the things that were restricted.
It's certainly possible. Wouldn't she rather they learn to follow their own
body signals even when exposed to sweets? My kids, who have been given free
rein on foods, are much better at choosing a wide variety of foods to meet
their needs than I am. They stop with one or two cookies and might even
follow it with carrot sticks. I eat half the batch and have to force myself
to eat vegetables. My mom made sure I ate all my dinner before I ate
sweets.
>>>Perhaps we also have an addictive personality disorder within my family;) When we had tv, my children wanted to watch it every waking minute. If I
said no, it was an all day fight. Our lives revolved around whether or not
they could watch tv.>>>
Pam's article is the perfect response to this.
Good luck formulating your response.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
Now, my friends are beginning to ask me about these choices and we have a
thread going on our local moms list about letting go of control and food
issues came up.....
Snip.....
How might you respond to this? There are things I have to say, and I've
forwarded on Pam's great post on the economics of limiting tv (with her
permission), but I want to write a well thought out post because there are
also many on this list that like what I'm doing with my kids and want to
learn more. I want those who might be led to an unschooling lifestyle to get
a good representation, does this make sense? I don't want it left with the
feeling that I've chosen total unruliness for my kids.>>>>>
You asked so I will answer. Post just the links once, and then step away.
Try to lose any attachment to the idea of converting or even leading people
to Unschooling. (You can lead a horse to water......)
My experience with this type of issue, both in person with my local group
(few Unschoolers - mostly relaxed and eclectic) and on line with the
non-unschoolers, is to not get involved with this type of discussion, other
than to very briefly answer questions about my own practices without the
why's, or simply say, "We are Unschoolers and we don't have food
restrictions".
I allow Jayn's actions to speak for themselves most of the time, and do a
lot of shrugging when people are trying enthusiastically to encourage me to
adopt some schoolish activity/trick/program that they have used with great
"success". To be honest I usually even avoid sharing Jayn's achievements
with these non-unschooling folk because if I ever have, the immediate result
has been lengthy proselytizing about the next step *I* should take to
*ensure* that she briskly moves on to the next level of reading or writing
or whatever the skill may be. (I don't like the proselytizing; nor do they.)
This is for my own peace of mind and emotional sanity. On the rare occasions
that I have gotten into any type of "defending Unschooling" discussion I
have ended up losing sleep from stress and worry about the poor little kid
being forced to write 3 sentences a day. I don't do school-bashing
conversations either, because it makes me crazy.
If your friends are attracted to Unschooling, they *will* ask you, probably
privately, for information about it. These are the questions that I answer
in much more detail, focusing again on what we do every day, directing them
to all our favorite websites and books for more "theoretical" readings. Jayn
is in front of them, the picture of health, energy and curiosity so clearly
is in no trouble over tv or food. I love watching the jaws drop when she
says no to a chocolate. ;) Your joyful family will be the best advertisement
for the lifestyle also.
Most local lists are not the kind of rigorous discussion lists that this and
the other R/U lists are. I have to remind myself to check the subject line
and make sure I am not about to slam someone on my local list. - "What is
the best early reading program? Ds is almost three and doesn't know his
alphabet yet." :P~~~~~~
The refreshing nature of being on an R/U list, the delight and wonder of
finding this brilliant, sparkling lifestyle is hard not to want to share
with all. However I have found that many people become defensive instantly
(even on these lists sometimes) because the truth is that Unschooling proves
that almost every thing they feel compelled to do, or control with their
children and their children's education, is utterly unnecessary. In some
cases this is tantamount to saying, "Your whole life today is a waste of
energy" if they are deeply committed to Home Schooling and all the
trappings. Trying to force people to hear this before they are ready is more
heart wrenching for me than knowing that the kid has to study about the
rainforest this month regardless of interest.
Oh, I should add that I do speak up on those rare occasions when someone is
talking about punishments ("consequences") for whatever reason, with the
information that we never punish Jayn. Luckily there are no apparent
spankers in our group - certainly that has never come up.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.830 / Virus Database: 565 - Release Date: 1/6/2005
thread going on our local moms list about letting go of control and food
issues came up.....
Snip.....
How might you respond to this? There are things I have to say, and I've
forwarded on Pam's great post on the economics of limiting tv (with her
permission), but I want to write a well thought out post because there are
also many on this list that like what I'm doing with my kids and want to
learn more. I want those who might be led to an unschooling lifestyle to get
a good representation, does this make sense? I don't want it left with the
feeling that I've chosen total unruliness for my kids.>>>>>
You asked so I will answer. Post just the links once, and then step away.
Try to lose any attachment to the idea of converting or even leading people
to Unschooling. (You can lead a horse to water......)
My experience with this type of issue, both in person with my local group
(few Unschoolers - mostly relaxed and eclectic) and on line with the
non-unschoolers, is to not get involved with this type of discussion, other
than to very briefly answer questions about my own practices without the
why's, or simply say, "We are Unschoolers and we don't have food
restrictions".
I allow Jayn's actions to speak for themselves most of the time, and do a
lot of shrugging when people are trying enthusiastically to encourage me to
adopt some schoolish activity/trick/program that they have used with great
"success". To be honest I usually even avoid sharing Jayn's achievements
with these non-unschooling folk because if I ever have, the immediate result
has been lengthy proselytizing about the next step *I* should take to
*ensure* that she briskly moves on to the next level of reading or writing
or whatever the skill may be. (I don't like the proselytizing; nor do they.)
This is for my own peace of mind and emotional sanity. On the rare occasions
that I have gotten into any type of "defending Unschooling" discussion I
have ended up losing sleep from stress and worry about the poor little kid
being forced to write 3 sentences a day. I don't do school-bashing
conversations either, because it makes me crazy.
If your friends are attracted to Unschooling, they *will* ask you, probably
privately, for information about it. These are the questions that I answer
in much more detail, focusing again on what we do every day, directing them
to all our favorite websites and books for more "theoretical" readings. Jayn
is in front of them, the picture of health, energy and curiosity so clearly
is in no trouble over tv or food. I love watching the jaws drop when she
says no to a chocolate. ;) Your joyful family will be the best advertisement
for the lifestyle also.
Most local lists are not the kind of rigorous discussion lists that this and
the other R/U lists are. I have to remind myself to check the subject line
and make sure I am not about to slam someone on my local list. - "What is
the best early reading program? Ds is almost three and doesn't know his
alphabet yet." :P~~~~~~
The refreshing nature of being on an R/U list, the delight and wonder of
finding this brilliant, sparkling lifestyle is hard not to want to share
with all. However I have found that many people become defensive instantly
(even on these lists sometimes) because the truth is that Unschooling proves
that almost every thing they feel compelled to do, or control with their
children and their children's education, is utterly unnecessary. In some
cases this is tantamount to saying, "Your whole life today is a waste of
energy" if they are deeply committed to Home Schooling and all the
trappings. Trying to force people to hear this before they are ready is more
heart wrenching for me than knowing that the kid has to study about the
rainforest this month regardless of interest.
Oh, I should add that I do speak up on those rare occasions when someone is
talking about punishments ("consequences") for whatever reason, with the
information that we never punish Jayn. Luckily there are no apparent
spankers in our group - certainly that has never come up.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.830 / Virus Database: 565 - Release Date: 1/6/2005
Gold Standard
Just a side question here...when I grocery shop, I usually buy what my kids
ask for along with my and my dh's favorites, most all of which are healthy
choices with a few junky things in the mix. If it's a tight week budget-wise
however, the junk food is usually what goes. I've just automatically done
this. My kids have seemed to understand and have not complained, however
recent posts have talked about the "quiet child" who would really love
something (time with Dad, for example) but don't say anything because they
don't want to stress the parent. Would you recommend a pre-shopping
discussion on weeks like this so kids can express their ideas beforehand? Or
maybe it's just a fact of life that we have to buy the healthy food to stay
healthy and the junk comes second? I believe that at this point, they would
come to that conclusion themselves anyway. Or maybe they'll want to throw
this sense to the wind and live on ice-cream for the week? And what kind of
catastrophe would happen if we did that (nothing that a little detox
wouldn't cure)? What do you do with your money, groceries, and family
choices for food? There's probably a link on Sandra's site about this...I'll
look now...
Thanks,
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: Angela S [mailto:game-enthusiast@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 5:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] need some advise... .
of chronic illness. I therefore, refuse to spend our hard earned money on
something like that (except on occasions).>>>
Often times the things that have been restricted in childhood are the things
that adults binge on just because no one is telling them they can't.
Children who are given a free rein on foods, in a healthy atmosphere, learn
to self regulate and don't have to spend their adulthoods trying to overcome
food issues cause by restrictions.
them to just make wise choices. They are children & are not fully capable of
making all of their own choices, which is why there is an adult to help
them. >>>
Does she feel that respected teenagers who have been given information and
choice will automatically want to smoke and drink? How did she draw that
conclusion?
hours of video games and a very high sugar diet (fruity pebbles for
breakfast, countless Mountain Dew, and candy) caused Brian's epilepsy>>>
I'd be shocked if there were any evidence to support that sugar laden foods
cause epilepsy.
directly related to how much tv she watches.>>>
Does this child have loving caring adults in her life who interact with her
on a regular basis? Is she public schooled and needing to unwind from
school? Does she get any exercise? There are a million unknowns in this
example. Does she really even have ADD? How many children are actually
medically diagnosed with ADD? From what I've heard most are just medicated
based on a report of not concentrating (on boring repetitive busy work) or
hyperactivity. (it's not normal for children to sit at a desk all day.)
proven to cause structural changes in the brain during a crucial development
time. >>>
I've seen children on TV who spend the bulk of their day watching TV with
the parents just doing there own thing, and then complaining that the
children do nothing but watch TV. One doctor Phil episode had a toddler who
just sat there all day, supposedly, and freaked out when the TV was turned
off. Where were the parents? What were they thinking? Why didn't they
interact with their child? My kids have free rein on TV. But we spend most
of the day doing other things. We do watch TV and generally we watch it
together in the evening and we like TV. But we also play games, ride our
horse, go outside, visit friends, read books together, cook, eat, play, and
on and on. I don't spend the whole day ignoring my children and they don't
spend the whole day watching TV. Why would they choose that over all the
other options? TV is great sometimes, but life is way more interesting most
of the time.
any form of self-discipline, I am very used to doing what I want, when I
want & not realizing any consequences. Brian is too, so I suppose we both
relate to that in the same way. >>>
But isn't it nice to have a choice? Look, even though she had a childhood
of free rein on sweets, she, as an adult, has chosen to eat healthy foods.
How could that happen? Does she think that there won't be any consequences
for her children coming from a home where sweets were off limits? Maybe
they will spend their adulthoods binging on the things that were restricted.
It's certainly possible. Wouldn't she rather they learn to follow their own
body signals even when exposed to sweets? My kids, who have been given free
rein on foods, are much better at choosing a wide variety of foods to meet
their needs than I am. They stop with one or two cookies and might even
follow it with carrot sticks. I eat half the batch and have to force myself
to eat vegetables. My mom made sure I ate all my dinner before I ate
sweets.
said no, it was an all day fight. Our lives revolved around whether or not
they could watch tv.>>>
Pam's article is the perfect response to this.
Good luck formulating your response.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
ask for along with my and my dh's favorites, most all of which are healthy
choices with a few junky things in the mix. If it's a tight week budget-wise
however, the junk food is usually what goes. I've just automatically done
this. My kids have seemed to understand and have not complained, however
recent posts have talked about the "quiet child" who would really love
something (time with Dad, for example) but don't say anything because they
don't want to stress the parent. Would you recommend a pre-shopping
discussion on weeks like this so kids can express their ideas beforehand? Or
maybe it's just a fact of life that we have to buy the healthy food to stay
healthy and the junk comes second? I believe that at this point, they would
come to that conclusion themselves anyway. Or maybe they'll want to throw
this sense to the wind and live on ice-cream for the week? And what kind of
catastrophe would happen if we did that (nothing that a little detox
wouldn't cure)? What do you do with your money, groceries, and family
choices for food? There's probably a link on Sandra's site about this...I'll
look now...
Thanks,
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: Angela S [mailto:game-enthusiast@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 5:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] need some advise... .
>>>For me, sugar is completely unnecesary on a day to day basis & I believeit to be quite harmful. I think it plays a major role in our modern epidemic
of chronic illness. I therefore, refuse to spend our hard earned money on
something like that (except on occasions).>>>
Often times the things that have been restricted in childhood are the things
that adults binge on just because no one is telling them they can't.
Children who are given a free rein on foods, in a healthy atmosphere, learn
to self regulate and don't have to spend their adulthoods trying to overcome
food issues cause by restrictions.
>>>I think trying to give complete freedom of choices is like saying whenthey are teenagers I should spend my money on cigarretes and alcohol & tell
them to just make wise choices. They are children & are not fully capable of
making all of their own choices, which is why there is an adult to help
them. >>>
Does she feel that respected teenagers who have been given information and
choice will automatically want to smoke and drink? How did she draw that
conclusion?
>>>Over Christmas my FIL (a very "mainstream" kinda guy) actually sharedwith us that he supports what we are doing b/c he believes 100% that endless
hours of video games and a very high sugar diet (fruity pebbles for
breakfast, countless Mountain Dew, and candy) caused Brian's epilepsy>>>
I'd be shocked if there were any evidence to support that sugar laden foods
cause epilepsy.
>>>. Upon our return home, my mother was giving me grief, as usual, and myfather butted in that he also agrees fully as he thinks my nieces add are
directly related to how much tv she watches.>>>
Does this child have loving caring adults in her life who interact with her
on a regular basis? Is she public schooled and needing to unwind from
school? Does she get any exercise? There are a million unknowns in this
example. Does she really even have ADD? How many children are actually
medically diagnosed with ADD? From what I've heard most are just medicated
based on a report of not concentrating (on boring repetitive busy work) or
hyperactivity. (it's not normal for children to sit at a desk all day.)
>>> As many people say "you can just see it". Even the AAP came out with astatement against any tv viewing for children under 2 because it has been
proven to cause structural changes in the brain during a crucial development
time. >>>
I've seen children on TV who spend the bulk of their day watching TV with
the parents just doing there own thing, and then complaining that the
children do nothing but watch TV. One doctor Phil episode had a toddler who
just sat there all day, supposedly, and freaked out when the TV was turned
off. Where were the parents? What were they thinking? Why didn't they
interact with their child? My kids have free rein on TV. But we spend most
of the day doing other things. We do watch TV and generally we watch it
together in the evening and we like TV. But we also play games, ride our
horse, go outside, visit friends, read books together, cook, eat, play, and
on and on. I don't spend the whole day ignoring my children and they don't
spend the whole day watching TV. Why would they choose that over all the
other options? TV is great sometimes, but life is way more interesting most
of the time.
>>>. It took years of illness, fatigue & various health problems before Ichanged my diet and feel awesome. It took alot of work for me to maintain
any form of self-discipline, I am very used to doing what I want, when I
want & not realizing any consequences. Brian is too, so I suppose we both
relate to that in the same way. >>>
But isn't it nice to have a choice? Look, even though she had a childhood
of free rein on sweets, she, as an adult, has chosen to eat healthy foods.
How could that happen? Does she think that there won't be any consequences
for her children coming from a home where sweets were off limits? Maybe
they will spend their adulthoods binging on the things that were restricted.
It's certainly possible. Wouldn't she rather they learn to follow their own
body signals even when exposed to sweets? My kids, who have been given free
rein on foods, are much better at choosing a wide variety of foods to meet
their needs than I am. They stop with one or two cookies and might even
follow it with carrot sticks. I eat half the batch and have to force myself
to eat vegetables. My mom made sure I ate all my dinner before I ate
sweets.
>>>Perhaps we also have an addictive personality disorder within my family;) When we had tv, my children wanted to watch it every waking minute. If I
said no, it was an all day fight. Our lives revolved around whether or not
they could watch tv.>>>
Pam's article is the perfect response to this.
Good luck formulating your response.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/20/2005 5:53:20 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jacki@... writes:
-=-Or
maybe it's just a fact of life that we have to buy the healthy food to stay
healthy and the junk comes second? I believe that at this point, they would
come to that conclusion themselves anyway. Or maybe they'll want to throw
this sense to the wind and live on ice-cream for the week? And what kind of
catastrophe would happen if we did that (nothing that a little detox
wouldn't cure)?-=-
It honestly would truly help if you would stop referring to it and thinking
of it as "junk food." Some once "healthy foods" are considered unhealthy now,
and the term "junk food" will clog up your thinking surer than bacon to the
arteries.
If you tried living on ice cream for a week, it probably wouldn't last two
meals. Things will balance out, and people don't eat the same thing over and
over and over and over without variety.
Maybe you should just keep a list, and if they think of something, put it on
the list for them, and let them know you might not be able to get everything
on the list the next time you go but will try to get it eventually.
-=-Just a side question here...when I grocery shop, I usually buy what my kids
ask for along with my and my dh's favorites, most all of which are healthy
choices with a few junky things in the mix.-=-
You might also let each kid pick an extra thing instead of trying for
everything they ask for.
I ask my kids every time I leave for the store what they want. Nine times
out of ten they say "nothing." You might get to that point too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jacki@... writes:
-=-Or
maybe it's just a fact of life that we have to buy the healthy food to stay
healthy and the junk comes second? I believe that at this point, they would
come to that conclusion themselves anyway. Or maybe they'll want to throw
this sense to the wind and live on ice-cream for the week? And what kind of
catastrophe would happen if we did that (nothing that a little detox
wouldn't cure)?-=-
It honestly would truly help if you would stop referring to it and thinking
of it as "junk food." Some once "healthy foods" are considered unhealthy now,
and the term "junk food" will clog up your thinking surer than bacon to the
arteries.
If you tried living on ice cream for a week, it probably wouldn't last two
meals. Things will balance out, and people don't eat the same thing over and
over and over and over without variety.
Maybe you should just keep a list, and if they think of something, put it on
the list for them, and let them know you might not be able to get everything
on the list the next time you go but will try to get it eventually.
-=-Just a side question here...when I grocery shop, I usually buy what my kids
ask for along with my and my dh's favorites, most all of which are healthy
choices with a few junky things in the mix.-=-
You might also let each kid pick an extra thing instead of trying for
everything they ask for.
I ask my kids every time I leave for the store what they want. Nine times
out of ten they say "nothing." You might get to that point too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/20/2005 5:53:20 PM Mountain Standard Time,
jacki@... writes:
-=-There's probably a link on Sandra's site about this...I'll
look now...
-=-
I forgot to say, the testimonials collection is here:
http://sandradodd.com/food
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jacki@... writes:
-=-There's probably a link on Sandra's site about this...I'll
look now...
-=-
I forgot to say, the testimonials collection is here:
http://sandradodd.com/food
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
>>It honestly would truly help if you would stop referring to it andthinking
>>of it as "junk food." Some once "healthy foods" are considered unhealthynow,
>>and the term "junk food" will clog up your thinking surer than bacon tothe
>>arteries.<<Neat. Thanks. Yeah, I definitely have thought of myself as pretty
knowledgeable in this area, and that is why I sensed I might be holding onto
something in the food dept. Those neon-colored sugar pops get me every time
:)
>>If you tried living on ice cream for a week, it probably wouldn't last twoand
>>meals. Things will balance out, and people don't eat the same thing over
>>over and over and over without variety.<<True. I was thinking that if THEY wanted to try that, I could loosen up and
go with it. But this is all imaginary since they haven't asked for it.
>>let them know you might not be able to get everythingThank you for this thought. It really doesn't have to be "no" it can be "I
>>on the list the next time you go but will try to get it eventually.<<
will try, but if I can't, I will try to get it eventually".
>>You might also let each kid pick an extra thing instead of trying forWell I get everything they ask for because it isn't more than we eat in a
>>everything they ask for.<<
week. There's nothing unreasonable. Because I don't regulate food, they
don't strongly want anything, but I noticed that I DO regulate some when my
budget is tight. Trying to wriggle all control from my being...
Jacki