Julia Berkley

Hi. I don't think I've posted before -- just been reading. I've been
homeschooling for quite a while now (my eldest is 14) and have been an
unschooler, at least until recently. John Holt, etc. (When we moved to
this area, we joined a large "co-op" to make the homeschooling social
connections -- this is where everyone was! --, but this "term" are
dropping out. One reason is it's school-y nature makes it hard for my
kids to seek their own learning bliss -- they just hopped a ride on the
parents' interests and had a pretty good time, but no time left for
their self-directed learning, after homework(!!) etc. ).

My problem is, I've got a new school district that watches more closely
than my old one. And my kids are getting older, so schools aren't as
flexible. Or at least, that's how I perceive it.

When I talk to other unschoolers about the science area, they remind me
how you get science all the time in nature, etc. But I haven't got kids
who are interested in getting out in nature. I've got kids who are
arachnaphobic, and afraid of stinging insects. They've got a mom who
doesn't enjoy hiking around in the cold (when the insects don't
abound). Science isn't my area of expertise, to say the least -- I went
to a college with no distribution requirements so I could avoid it --
but I do very much enjoy reading stuff out loud, or listening to them
read, on subjects related to science. How our world works. Animal
stuff. Biographies, etc. They like some of this too -- kids books,
mostly -- but after a while, it can get a little old.

We bought a large group of DiscoverySchool books (mag. format, clips of
this and that for a whole issue on one topic). They have a dynamic
format. We have the Oak Meadow science curriculum (these guys wanted
the whole curriculum this year -- we used to just use them for Math) --
Wait! Don't hang up because I said the C-word! If these guys want to
structure themselves, I'm not going to stand in the way. But as usual,
they liked them for about 2 months, then it was "yuck, this is boring!"
and that was the end of that.

If I were you, I might say -- "any science-type classes around your
area that your kids want to sign up for?" -- Lots of classes, kids
aren't interested. Science Museum? One of the best. Kids aren't
interested ("been there, done that").

Okay, so I need both ideas and an unschooling boost, if anyone can help
with that. I look at school curricula at this age level (I'm mainly
concerned with the "8th Grader") -- World Book guide, on-line stuff,
Oak Meadow -- and they seem to be covering Earth Science, etc. in
depth. This is a daughter who really wants to go to college to be a
children's librarian, at least, she's wanted to do that for a long
time. So at some point, we've got to deal with requirements, even if
our school district is relaxed this year (doubtful -- but I do know my
rights). I don't want to do any of this stuff. I don't want to make
anyone do anything. I don't want to "teach" anything. I want us to just
live our lives, read whatever, do what it seems other unschoolers do:
find sparks and run with them. Like we used to when they were littler.

But we're kind of not like that part. We find sparks and like them just
for being sparks, and the depth part never happens. And we're getting
to ages where the depth part starts being part of the picture. We've
got loads of depth in literature and "social studies" quite naturally
by our interests. So that brings us back to how to interact with "the
subject of science".

I hope I haven't broken any written or unwritten codes by posting such
a long query. Thanks so much just for reading all the way through it!
Any input would be welcome, though I definitely am not looking for
criticism!

Julia

[email protected]

-=-My problem is, I've got a new school district that watches more closely
than my old one. And my kids are getting older, so schools aren't as
flexible. Or at least, that's how I perceive it.-=-

What state are you in?

--------------------

When I talk to other unschoolers about the science area, they remind me
how you get science all the time in nature, etc. But I haven't got kids
who are interested in getting out in nature. I've got kids who are
arachnaphobic, and afraid of stinging insects.


-----------

There's a lot to science besides bugs and trees.
Maybe you-the-mom should spend some time, quietly (don't let the kids know
you're worried, if you are) exploring what's science, and what's out there.

-=- I do very much enjoy reading stuff out loud, or listening to them
read, on subjects related to science. How our world works. Animal
stuff. Biographies, etc. They like some of this too -- kids books,
mostly -- but after a while, it can get a little old.
-=-

Don't limit yourself to books. It DOES get old that way. You have the
internet, there are videos and DVDs, kid-level musicians, "kitchen chemistry"
stuff (like glop and fake blood and playdough), weather tracking, stuff with ice
(if you live where it's freezing, set water out in different kinds of
containers and pull the ice out in the morning--we had some GREAT crystal stuff
hanging down the other day). Feed birds. Feel your cat, look at a cat
skeleton. Rocks? Earthquakes. Stars? Full moons. Do you have a fireplace?

Don't stall out and make life small expecting everything to come from books.

-=-Wait! Don't hang up because I said the C-word! If these guys want to
structure themselves, I'm not going to stand in the way. -=-

You could have made your life wider and wilder so they would NOT want to
structure themselves. I think it's a waste of money to buy a curriculum because
it's more interesting or promising than your homelife. With very little
cash outlay, just make your homelife more interesting than any curriculum.

_http://sandradodd.com/checklists_ (http://sandradodd.com/checklists)

That might help.

-=-But as usual,
they liked them for about 2 months, then it was "yuck, this is boring!"
and that was the end of that.
-=-

"As usual"?
You've tried that before and it failed before?
Don't try it anymore. It's not a good use of cash, time or energy.

-=-Science Museum? One of the best. Kids aren't
interested ("been there, done that").
-=-

I think maybe if you went there to play ("YOU" you the mom went there to
play) the kids might have fun too. If you're going there because it's
educational, how can you expect them to have fun? Did you treat it like a kid thing?
If you treat it like a REAL, human, interesting thing, that might be contagio
us. But if you've already dulled it out by prior behaviors or expectations
or requirements, it will take a few visits for them to see you really liking
it. And there should be several visits anyway.

-=-This is a daughter who really wants to go to college to be a
children's librarian, at least, she's wanted to do that for a long
time. So at some point, we've got to deal with requirements-=-

It would be more useful to get her an opportunity to help at the library.
Maybe she won't want to do that if she actually does it some. Maybe she WILL.
But if you see it as a thing that requires pre-requisites and college, as
far-future thing instead of a "now" thing, it's not a real, dynamic part of
her. Does she organize the books at home? Does she know or care where books
come from and does she look at the publication details and credits in the
first few pages of books she reads? Does she REALLY have an interest or has
someone asked her what she would like to be when she grows up and she picked
something to have a response?

I think the best response to "what do you want to be" is "I don't know."
Too many kids lock into something because their relatives want them to. I
would discourage her from having chosen so early, and keep showing her the world
(and particularly the library world, and bookstore world).

-=- I don't want to do any of this stuff.-=-

Please read this if you don't read anything else:
_http://sandradodd.com/unschool/haveto_
(http://sandradodd.com/unschool/haveto) (http://sandradodd.com/choice)

If you think of your life as "have to," and if you think of homeschooling as
"have to" you're poisoning your own well.

-=-I want us to just
live our lives, read whatever, do what it seems other unschoolers do:
find sparks and run with them. Like we used to when they were littler.-=-

Too much "book" in your post and not enough talk and play and explore.

If you had really done it fully when they were littler, I think you'd be
better at doing it when they were older. But it's not too late to get it if it
didn't really catch hold before.

_http://sandradodd.com/deschooling_ (http://sandradodd.com/deschooling)
_http://sandradodd.com/seeingit_ (http://sandradodd.com/seeingit)
_http://sandradodd.com/strewing_ (http://sandradodd.com/strewing)

Most of the work that needs to be done is mom-work. Changing expectations
and mood and joy level. Enjoy what you're doing today. Don't make today a
drudgery-loaded investment in potential joy tomorrow.
_http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/HEM154.98/154.98_clmn_unschl.html_
(http://www.homeedmag.com/HEM/HEM154.98/154.98_clmn_unschl.html)

-=-And we're getting
to ages where the depth part starts being part of the picture.-=-

No, depth grows naturally inside if you/mom keep the world aswirl.

If you knew and believed that math can be learned naturally, you would
believe it about science. But you made an exception of math, and that made a rule
of exceptions. You don't yet live by the principle that learning can happen
naturally. But you can move toward that if you want to. You can't move
toward it by telling the kids to. You have to go first.

-=-Any input would be welcome, though I definitely am not looking for
criticism!-=-

I had written everything above before I got to that. It makes me grumpy
that you wrote it, after I spent as much time as I did writing things I really
thought would help your children and you have a much happier and
learning-filled life, and sharing so many things I've written.

If you want a list where people say "Ooooh, you're doing *just* the right
things! Keep doing what you're doing!" I'm sure they're out there. Would
strangers making you feel better for thirty seconds help your kids this
afternoon? You are going to have to look at what you're doing that could change if
you're going to get out of your stuck place.

This list can be VERY helpful, but only if you're willing to consider that
you might be doing things that are counter-productive. You already know that,
though.

Sandra











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Elizabeth Hill

**

Do you have a fireplace?**

(that reminds me!)
We got dry ice that was part of the packing materials for a perishable food Xmas present we received. Much fun was had with the dry ice.

The other thing that comes to mind for "high interest" science, that is popular here is "Mythbusters" on the Discovery channel. They do (mostly) dangerous and destructive experiments to see whether urban legends could be true. (e.g. Can someone be decapitated if they jump up into a fan blade?) I would think this would be most appropriate/appealing for kids over the age of 7 or 8.)

**
-=-This is a daughter who really wants to go to college to be a
children's librarian, at least, she's wanted to do that for a long
time. So at some point, we've got to deal with requirements-=-**

I've always had a sneaking desire to be a children's librarian myself. I would think that this kid might conceivably be interested in going through the science section in the children's library and seeing what they've got, and maybe looking at the books, as books, at figuring out which ones have the best content, are the most appealing, etc. Kind of like a book reviewer.

The internet has piles of websites put together by scientists, AND it has websites put together by children's librarians with book recommendations. (I also like many of the resources in Rebecca Rupp's book _The Complete Home Learning Source Book_. She reviews more than books -- lots of kits and games, and some videos.)

A budding librarian may find it fun to go to every branch of the library within a convenient radius. I would!

Betsy

queenjane555

> When I talk to other unschoolers about the science area, they
>remind me how you get science all the time in nature, etc. But I
>haven't got kids who are interested in getting out in nature.

What about DVDs? My son caught a very interesting program on "string
theory" on PBS, that he was fascinated by, which prompted me to
order a bunch of DVDs (used mostly, pretty cheap!)off Amazon.com. I
got one called "HyperSpace" basically "this is how the world is goig
to end" futuristic stuff, how stars are born and die, etc...a 4 DVD
series called, I think, The Blue Planet, all about sea creatures and
animals, underwater stuff, etc., just got another one today in the
mail called The Amazing Earth, i think its about earthquakes,
volcanoes, etc. My suggestion would be to get a couple DVDs that
look interesting to you, pop them in and maybe some kids will watch.
(I *wouldnt* recommend saying "Look i got some science DVDs to
satisfy the science curriculum requirement, lets watch it right
now!")

On Animal Planet, they have tons of shows that are "sciency",nature
oriented that are very entertaining. There's one show that pits two
(virtual)animals against one another (example, who would win in a
fight between a shark and a hippo? Or between a cheetah and a
gorilla)and they really figure it out, using physics, zoology, and
computer graphics. Very cool.

Discovery Health channel also has many programs that explore the
human body, and all the weird things that can happen to people and
the surgery they may need to correct it. When we're home i usually
turn it to either Animal Planet or Discovery Health, or sometimes
National Geographic Channel and just leave it on, something
interesting is bound to come on.


Katherine

berkcramfam

Thanks, Sandra, for all your time and thoughtfulness. I was hoping for positive
suggestions and got quite a bunch. I realize I only gave snippets of what's going on, so
you'd have to make some assumptions based on that. Some were correct, some weren't,
but I can sort through it. FYI, my daughter is volunteering at 2 libraries already and does
organize her shelves, etc., so it's not one of those "I want to be a fireman and a ballet
dancer" kind of answers!

You hit the nail on the head with some of the mom attitude stuff, though not competely
fairly -- but you can't know that, based on what I wrote. Never approached a museum as
"educational," nor most of our activities at a young age. The division has come in more as
they've got older and I felt the need to explain why I wanted the TV off etc., and I'd like to
work on erasing it.

Will definitely read the links you gave me. Thanks again.

Julia

berkcramfam

Thanks for the ideas, Betsy. You've definitely got her pegged in terms of her book interest.
It's a little tough for her to look through the science section 'cause the arachnophobia is
real -- not just a minor thing. And spiders are everywhere you turn on the science shelves
(if you start looking for them, you'll be amazed!) But will poke around on the web more per
your suggestions. Thanks --

Julia

p.s. Sorry for the last post where I forgot to delete the previous messages. I hate it when
people do that!

Dana Matt

There's one
> show that pits two
> (virtual)animals against one another (example, who
> would win in a
> fight between a shark and a hippo? Or between a
> cheetah and a
> gorilla)and they really figure it out, using
> physics, zoology, and
> computer graphics. Very cool.

Yes--my daughter and I walked to the grocery store and
back the other night, and she told me all about the
fight between the gorilla and...I think it was
actually a leopard? It was such fun to hear her retell
it :)
Dana

=====
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100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
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Angela S

* Discovery Health channel also has many programs that explore the
human body, and all the weird things that can happen to people and
the surgery they may need to correct it



Or how about Extreme Plastic Surgery. Wouldn't that be science? LOL!



Angela

game-enthusiast@...





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[email protected]

In a message dated 1/8/2005 11:02:14 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
juliaberkley@... writes:

The division has come in more as
they've got older and I felt the need to explain why I wanted the TV off
etc., and I'd like to
work on erasing it.



-------------------------------

Work on erasing what?

Erasing your need to explain?
Erasing the TV?
Erase wanting the TV off?

I'd go with the third one if you're undecided.
If it's the second one, you could practice explaining to us why you want the
TV off.

I could've guessed wrong again. That's okay. Lots of people are reading
and not posting, and might benefit from responses to skewed assumptions.

http://sandradodd.com/tv

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

> Or how about Extreme Plastic Surgery. Wouldn't that be science?

I was watching one of those plastic surgery shows, and totally
freaked my son out because of the boob shots "ohhhhh turn it!!! its
inappropriate!!!" Poor kid.


Katherine

julie w

queenjane555 wrote:

>
>
>
>>When I talk to other unschoolers about the science area, they
>>remind me how you get science all the time in nature, etc. But I
>>haven't got kids who are interested in getting out in nature.
>>
>>
>
>What about DVDs?
>
That's why Netflix is so great. They really have a good selection of
documentaries from PBS, BBC, History Channel, ect. They and Gamefly.com
have been the best monthly subscriptions we have ever had.
Julie W inn AR

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julie w

> Long story short -- my 44-year-old husband died of a sudden massive
> heart attack on Dec. 14.

I am so, so sorry for your loss.

> We've gotten through the immediate shock,
> the funeral and the holidays. Now we're looking at the future and how
> much our lives have changed and will change. The financial part will
> be tremendously tight -- we're falling from $100K a year to about $15K
> per year. Out of that we'll have to pay about $3000 a month in bare
> basics expenses -- mortgage, health insurance, utilities. There is
> some insurance and social security which will help out a little bit,
> but now I am the sole support for our family.


Besides the more obvious cost cutters like moving to a cheaper/smaller
home (painful to be sure), trading in expensive vehicles for new/cheaper
ones, cutting back on lots of convenience things that come with a 100K
lifestyle (just making assumptions here, YMMV) here are a few ideas to
help save money without going through deprivation:
What can you sell on ebay or at resale shops? Its amazing what other
folks will buy. If nothing else you can cycle though your wardrobes each
year and sell at the resale shops what you did not wear the year
before...resale is also a great way to buy clothes.
Can you ask family to give the boys "extras" as birthday and Christmas
presents next year? Its also a good way to get magazine subscriptions.
Netflix is cheaper then renting videos (of course the library is even
cheaper) in the long run (at least for me...late fees) and Gamefly.com
has saved us TONS of money on (non-returnable) video games that ds would
have hated after he spent $50 on them.
Have you reached out to your local homeschool group/homeschool friends?
There maybe things you can barter with other moms. What do you do for
the non-profit? Could you do that for others who in turn could provide
you with services you might need? I know my "only" child would enjoy a
weekly visit from another kid...you might find a mom who needs to switch
off days for a job. For that matter I have heard of single moms
"sharing" a house as a way to make ends meet...if you can find someone
who fits into you and your kids lifestyle. Rent a room to a college student?

I wish I could think of other things......
We live on less then what you did, but I don't know what we would do if
dh died. I know we have enough insurance to pay off the house but that's
about it.

Julie W in AR



>
>



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superdiva58us

Julie -- You've posted a lot of really good ideas! Thank you!
> >
> Besides the more obvious cost cutters like moving to a
cheaper/smaller home (painful to be sure),

Our house is actually pretty inexpensive considering our area. We
bought it 10 years ago and the mortgage is less that what we would pay
in rent for a townhouse -- or even a mortgage on a townhouse. Housing
prices in DC are through the roof -- luckily I'm not out having to buy
a house right now. If it came to that. I would have to leave the area.
Another possibility is renting out my basement which is finished and
can easily be converted to a one bedroom apartment. I've heard
basement apartments are very popular with young proefssionals
(teachers in particular) and rent for as high as $850 per month.


>>trading in expensive vehicles for new/cheaper ones,

Danny had just purchased a Hybrid Fuel Toyota in October. My name is
not on the title or the loan -- I want to get rid of it because the
payments are $520 per month. I can't do anything right now because
I'm still waiting for death certificates and Toyota won't even deal
with me until I can present one. I'm torn between a voluntary
repossession and a private sale. My van is relatively new (2003) --
and it's reliable, not fancy -- smaller payment.

cutting back on lots of convenience things that come with a 100K
> lifestyle (just making assumptions here, YMMV)

Oooh yeahhh we sure threw a lot of money around. We weren't
extravagant -- but we didn't make the kids wait for things that they
wanted, we took nice vacations, bought stuff we liked, but didn't
really need, etc.

>What can you sell on ebay or at resale shops?

How does eBay work? It seems kind of difficult, but maybe that's just
me. I really do need to learn it because there is a lot of stuff here
that I do need to clear out -- and some of it would fetch a nice penny
on eBay. Are there any tutorials where I could safely learn how it
works?

> Can you ask family to give the boys "extras" as birthday and
Christmas presents next year? Its also a good way to get magazine
subscriptions.

Good idea -- They've already pitched in to buy an XBox for them.

> Netflix is cheaper then renting videos (of course the library is
even > cheaper) in the long run (at least for me...late fees) and
Gamefly.com has saved us TONS of money on (non-returnable) video games
that ds would have hated after he spent $50 on them. >>>snip<<<

Is gamefly.com like netflix? We'd just given up Netflix because we
weren't watching the movies and it seemed like an easy expense to cut.
Gamefly, however, might be worth it since my kids will master a $50
game in a couple of days -- then want more.

You've given me a lot of great ideas and a feast of food for thought.
Thank you!

~ Alicia

julie w

superdiva58us wrote:

> How does eBay work? It seems kind of difficult, but maybe that's
> justme. I really do need to learn it because there is a lot of stuff here
>
>that I do need to clear out -- and some of it would fetch a nice penny
>on eBay. Are there any tutorials where I could safely learn how it
>works?
>
Ebay itself has some pretty good tutorials on its site. It also has
forums where you can ask questions of other sellers and buyers.

>>Netflix is cheaper then renting videos (of course the library is
>>
>>
>even > cheaper) in the long run (at least for me...late fees) and
>Gamefly.com has saved us TONS of money on (non-returnable) video games
>that ds would have hated after he spent $50 on them. >>>snip<<<
>
>Is gamefly.com like netflix? We'd just given up Netflix because we
>weren't watching the movies and it seemed like an easy expense to cut.
> Gamefly, however, might be worth it since my kids will master a $50
>game in a couple of days -- then want more.
>
>
Just like Netflix. No late fees. It really works great for us. Josh was
just spending too much money on games he either hated once he got them
OR had late fees from renting games he did not want to return.
Julie W

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Rue Kream

>>How does eBay work? It seems kind of difficult, but maybe that's just
me.

**They've made it very simple. If you go to their website and click on
'sell' there's a section called 'getting started' that explains it all.
Basically you set up an account and fill out an online form describing the
item, your shipping rate and selling policies, and how long you want the
auction to last. Within minutes you can get an auction started.

I highly recommend posting a clear picture of the item. When I'm looking
for something I tend to skip the ones with no photo if there are more than a
few available. Do a search for what you want to sell so you can get an idea
of the prices people are getting for similar items. I usually give a 'buy
it now' option, and people use it pretty often.

We've been selling and buying on ebay for years with very few problems (2
that I can think of, and one was my own fault for not reading feedback).
It's definitely worth the effort. Good luck :0). ~Rue


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