Q

I've been in the group for awhile, and have lurked on Unschooling Discussion
for about a year now...I decided it was time to stick my nose out
of the Lurkers' Lounge and say hi, and thank you for the inspiring and
stimulating discussions.

I'm Quenby, from Connecticut and Southern California but
living in Tokyo, Japan with my (yes, he is Japanese) husband of 14 years
and our two beautiful bicultural kids, ages 1 and almost 5.
Homeschooling/Unschooling is technically illegal here in Japan but in fact
there are people doing it. My kids are still
very young, so to be honest I am making this up as I go.
I'm already a bit of a rebel because my older child isn't in a preschool
every day.
I credit this group, Unschooling Discussion, and Sandra in particular,
with helping me to question many of my beliefs about education.

In particular, if any of you are unschooling bilingual, bicultural kids I am
very interested in hearing about your experiences. I'm on a couple of
bilingual parenting lists but they are geared more towards a traditional
schooled approach.

Quenby


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Phoebe

I've been on this list for quite a while now (I'm also on other lists
where I mostly lurk as well) and have really learned/questioned *so
much* from the stimulating and inspiring discussions (as well from J.
Holt's and other's books and also many websites, including Sandra's)
here and there.... thank you all for this !!
I'm Sandrine, I live in France and am the mother of 2 boys aged 5 and
2... I'm also pregnant with our 3rd child, due in march 2005.
I started looking for information on how to homeschool legally in France
when my oldest was about 2 y.o. because I didn't feel like sending him
to school not at 3 (K) or even later... I (can't really say "we" because
DH is still a bit reluctant to the whole homeschooling thing, not to
mention unschooling) slowly moved from an eclectic homeschooling
approach to unschooling because it just makes so much more sense that
way, both for me and my kids (I wish it did too to their Daddy...).

Well, wasn't that hard after all to finally post my intro :)

Sandrine

Gold Standard

Welcome out Sandrine!
(Hubbies can be the hardest sells!)

Jacki


Well, wasn't that hard after all to finally post my intro :)

Sandrine







Yahoo! Groups Links

Phoebe

Jacki wrote:

>Welcome out Sandrine!
>(Hubbies can be the hardest sells!)
>
>
Thanks for the welcome :)
I guess DH still needs some time when it comes to unschooling... after
all I did talk him into AP and all kind of things he first was reluctant
too and that now seems natural and logical to him :)))....

Sandrine

--
Phoebe

~ - ~ - ~
ICQ : 6226048
http://smz.phidji.com/

So the secret to good self-esteem is to lower your expectations to the point where they're already met ?
~ - ~ - ~

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/14/2004 7:29:12 PM Mountain Standard Time,
alexanto@... writes:
I guess DH still needs some time when it comes to unschooling... after
all I did talk him into AP and all kind of things he first was reluctant
too and that now seems natural and logical to him :)))....
-----------------------

It surprised me, but mine and others' husbands too seem to have started slow
and then passed me/them at some point when the kids were older. My husband
worries less than I do now, with the kids in their teens.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Phoebe

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>It surprised me, but mine and others' husbands too seem to have started slow and then passed me/them at some point when the kids were older. My husband worries less than I do now, with the kids in their teens.
>
>
Well I hope I don't have to wait till my kids are in their teens since
they're still so young, can't imagine spending 8 more years "alone" on
this and feeling like I have to justify every single thing I do (well
actually don't do....) and being the only one who initiate any change in
the home...
But anyway, it's always nice to hear that other reluctant Dads have
slowly made that swift :)... and I've also seen areas where DH is now
much better than I am although he first wasn't into the thing at all, so
what you say (well, write) makes sense to me.

Sandrine

--
Phoebe

~ - ~ - ~
ICQ : 6226048
http://smz.phidji.com/

So the secret to good self-esteem is to lower your expectations to the point where they're already met ?
~ - ~ - ~

kim mcmillan

<<<It surprised me, but mine and others' husbands too seem to have started slow
and then passed me/them at some point when the kids were older. >>>
I think my dh has caught the "fever". Yesterday I came home to find him cleaning my teen sons bedroom out of pure joy and thoughtfulness. (Our son has been very busy in a play production and at the end of an online class he is taking, and had commented on his lack of time to clean his room.) And this morning he realized there weren't enough video games to go around and went and bought another used game system. It's only taken him about a year and one seminar with Sandra and Pam : ) to catch on, so thought that would give some of you hope. However, I'll have to think on admitting whether he's surpassed me yet. LOL
Kim






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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/15/04 1:05:28 PM, alexanto@... writes:

<< Well I hope I don't have to wait till my kids are in their teens since

they're still so young, can't imagine spending 8 more years "alone" on

this and feeling like I have to justify every single thing I do (well

actually don't do....) and being the only one who initiate any change in

the home... >>

It got better gradually.
But still, what you describe above is better than a husband who says "Put
them in school" period.

Instead of trying to justify every single thing, concentrate on the kids' joy
and happiness and learning and THAT will start to justify your actions for
you. As your husband starts to see it work, instead of hearing your
reassurances, he will become a believer.

-=-But anyway, it's always nice to hear that other reluctant Dads have

slowly made that swift :)... and I've also seen areas where DH is now

much better than I am although he first wasn't into the thing at all, so

what you say (well, write) makes sense to me.

-=-

I remember my husband's skeptical confusion about breastfeeding and family
bed, and then his STRONG defense of them later. But I wasn't able to think
about that when I was first homeschooling because I had three little kids (5, 2
and not quite born) and it was hard to think of much of anything very clearly.

The perspective of a few years does help, and the relative calm of having
kids who are able to put their own shoes and coats on and fasten their own
seatbelts helps immensely!!

Sandra

Tracey Inman

<< Well I hope I don't have to wait till my kids are in their teens since

they're still so young, can't imagine spending 8 more years "alone" on

this and feeling like I have to justify every single thing I do (well

actually don't do....) and being the only one who initiate any change in

the home... >>


My husband has been very supportive from the start so I count myself
extremely fortunate. However, I do from time to time forward a certain
thread I think is worthy of reading. We are still not totally on the same
page when it comes to bedtimes and such. But to defend him at the same
time, I am myself, moving more in that direction. This has really been a
journey for me personally. I am presently reading Valerie's book, "The
Unprocessed Child". Oh my goodness, if you haven't read it, I highly
recommend it! This might be a great time to share some reading with your
husband. It is really stretching me to think in ways my brain never knew
to think. I have a friend whose husband is being oh, how should I say
this...obnoxious! Printing worksheets, making the kids write 4 times a
word, etc., etc. I told both of them that in order to be together they
really needed to read, read, read. I am what I consider still a newby at
this. We are only 1 year into the process and a process it has been :)
Don't know that anything I have said was really helpful but more than
anything I want to say, hang in there and don't loose your focus. Enjoy
watching your kids grow. Those are moments you can't retrieve.

~Tracey I.

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[email protected]

In a message dated 12/16/2004 6:05:09 PM Mountain Standard Time,
kmcmillan@... writes:
And this morning he realized there weren't enough video games to go around
and went and bought another used game system. It's only taken him about a year
and one seminar with Sandra and Pam : ) to catch on, so thought that would
give some of you hope.

------------------------

Cool!


-=- However, I'll have to think on admitting whether he's surpassed me yet.
-=-

I noticed Keith being the one to reassure me sometimes about a year and a
half ago. I was worried Kirby and college; Keith wasn't worried. I was worried
about Marty and Holly going to the state fair without an adult; Keith wasn't
worried. I was worried recently about Kirby driving five hours away without
anyone else; Keith wasn't worried.

It's WONDERFUL!

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

We are still not totally on the same
page when it comes to bedtimes and such.
------------

I don't have as much sleep-stuff collected as I have on some other subjects,
but the rules vs. principles section has been enlarged lately, and that would
apply.

http://sandradodd.com/rules


http://sandradodd.com/sleeping

http://sandradodd.com/latenightlearning

maybe not at all needed by Tracey, but there are people here who might be
newer to the situation and the list.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jwvastine

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> We are still not totally on the same
> page when it comes to bedtimes and such.
> ------------
>
> I don't have as much sleep-stuff collected as I have on some other
subjects,

Sandra, thanks for the links. Also emerging from lurkdom. Must be
outing month for Lurkers!

The bedtime thing has been an issue at our house lately (sleep isn't
the issue it's just when they want to do it and it's my issue, not
theirs). This is the most dfficult thing I've had to deal with I
think since they were born. Short intro, 2 sons 15 and 12 (on
12/22). Older went to PS kinder and that was it for us. YS has only
been in a school to assist with a squid dissection class. He wasn't
impressed by the whole school thing. Husb and I are pretty much in
agreement on our parenting styles. When we've hit these speed bumps
before I've always tried to look back on how good things have gone
but it's more difficult this time.

I'd like to hear stories from the other side-Kids Stayed up Until 3
am Every Night-Brains Intact-No Mush Here, Officials State.

This is the one board I read that I have to get up and walk around
sometimes to let things settle. Or sometimes I stay away for a bit
but I always have to come back. I know I can tell I'm learning when
I'm a bit uncomfortable and challenged. It's a good feeling.

Judy

Robyn Coburn

<<<I'd like to hear stories from the other side-Kids Stayed up Until 3
am Every Night-Brains Intact-No Mush Here, Officials State.>>>>

I don't know how well this applies, since Jayn is 5, but this is how our
sleep schedule works. I am reposting from another list, since nothing much
has changed.

Slightly modified Quote begins:

Jayn is recently 5 and continues to live in the rotating sleep pattern that
has become the norm at our house.

Jayn lives on a 26-28 hour day. She sleeps for close to 10 hours and then
stays awake for 16 - 18. Since the world is rotating once every 24 hours,
this means we (she and I) are on a permanent slow march around the clock.
Sometimes she divides her sleep into two 5 hour sessions on a completely
unpredictable basis. In our household we are generally over the course of a
month or 5 weeks spending about a third of that time on a "night shift" when
Jayn gets up in the early evening and goes to be after the sun has risen.
Another part of the time she is getting up in the middle of the night and
going to bed in the mid afternoon - this is usually when she will take a nap
and somehow flip around to being on either nights or days.

She has never had a set bedtime, and when a toddler simply went to sleep
with us. Dh and I were fortunate in that he was at home after a knee
replacement for the vast majority of her young life, so he and I were able
to have our adult together time in the morning. Recently he has returned to
work in the film business, on a varying schedule, so one of the limiting
factors in how I am able to cope with the pushing through to nights is the
need to avoid disturbing his rest. In the past, Jayn has been able to be
awake for a couple of extra hours in the bedroom watching tv and asking
periodically for a snack, while I snoozed. Now that dynamic occurs with me
on the increasingly uncomfortable (as we both age) sofa.

Jayn is not comfortable being alone and lonely during the nights, so I stay
with her. These quiet, intense times have been the scene of some of our most
enriched imaginative games and discussions. They can be wonderful nights. It
is only when she does her sudden flips that I have a serious tiredness
problem. When she moves into it gradually, I am able to just follow her,
still usually getting up an hour or so sooner than she awakens. I keep
myself alert by typing on the computer sometimes [or sewing], when she is
engaged with her dolls. Sometimes she watches DVD's, and there are times
when I watch some other DVD's on my computer or the portable player at the
same time.

Being up all night has some restrictions that are not manifest during the
day. The first is obviously the need for quiet. Luckily our apartments have
wonderfully thick walls, and have all been soundproofed by the Los Angeles
Airport Authority. I have to help Jayn avoid jumping games, as we are on the
second floor. She gets her activity by doing sofa jumping, cycling on the
exercise bike, and after the sun comes up.

The other restriction is the limited social contact she has during that 10
day(night) period. We struggle to get to her dance class (1pm on Tuesdays)
and the park playdate following. Sometimes she is literally getting out of
bed to rush to class, at other times, about to go to bed as soon as we get
home. I would expect her to miss one every now and then, but so far the
enjoyment she gets out of class has motivated her to get up and go, even
when sleepy. [Except for one time, when she was just too tired to get up
after only 3 hours of sleep - so missed one class in a 10 week session] In a
way it is worse since it interrupts the cycle and I am the one getting
insufficient rest when these jumps occur.

When she is on a day schedule, I get her outdoors as often as possible. Up
until a couple of weeks ago [now about 2 months] we were swimming whenever
we awoke during daylight hours. We have an understanding group of home
schooling friends who never call here before 10am and are kind about making
playdates in the afternoon. We have a sorta kinda regular Friday playdate,
that we can cancel with one phone call without rancor. It is a fine balance
between going places at a certain time and how long the drive home then is -
sometimes a nap during that drive is utterly disastrous. It only takes 15
minutes of sleeping for Jayn to be refreshed enough for seven more energetic
hours, regardless of when she awoke that "morning". Awakening her when she
doesn't wish to get up is futile. She has chosen to miss birthday parties
and sleep instead. Trying to manipulate her into sleeping - even with
nursing, darkened rooms, quiet time, warm baths, valium (JUST KIDDING!) any
kind of trick at all - is equally pointless. She has kept on playing and
chatting happily for hours after I would have expected collapse.

The only time that we ever have any kind of emotional conflict or issues
between us over sleeping, is when I am not being acceptant of Jayn's
schedule. It is true that I am sometimes tired. However I have to choose to
not be resentful or fight her process, or I am tired *and* grumpy. I adapt
my other activities - cleaning, laundry, shopping, errands - around her.
Thank goodness for 24 hour markets!

Dh makes time to play with Jayn when he gets home from work. Again the only
times when there are conflicts [about sleeping] between us, are when he
loses his sense of acceptance about the sleep schedule - if he is feeling
lonely or left out. Most of the time he is a miracle of acceptance.

I have the expectation that this is temporary. I have been sometimes
reassured by other Unschoolers that this will likely pass. Eventually Jayn
may need fewer sleep hours so her days will regulate back to being 24 hours
long. Also she will gradually become more self sufficient and less needy of
company or assistance, so in time I will be free to follow my own preference
of sleeping, which is to go to bed between midnight and 2am and rise around
10-10.30am. (Theater hours) For all I know she will become the same morning
person my dh is. Or she may be a night owl, which is what I suspect.

I occasionally talk to her about what she is missing by being awake at night
instead of during the day. She often talks about activities she wants to be
part of - such as ice skating or gymnastics. I will have to make sure that
these classes are not early in the morning. Our ability to get to something
regularly scheduled before 11am would often be pretty impaired by both my
tiredness and her schedule.

We eat at appropriate times (ie when we are hungry but that is about every
4-5 hours with odd snacks between for Jayn) relative to when we get out of
bed, rather than the clock. Often this means Jayn and I are eating our lunch
or breakfast with dh who is having dinner. Jayn tends to eat a lot of one
thing at each sitting, and a bite or two of the other parts - like a lot of
chicken, a lot of potato, a lot of broccoli, a lot of chocolate chip
cookies, a lot of turkey ham sandwiches, a lot of apple - but it all
balances out over the course of her day or week.

I know that the way we live with Jayn's rotating sleep schedule is probably
out on the extreme edge of child led living. But it really is easier than
the alternative - a constant struggle with Jayn over her sleeping. One of
the reasons we were drawn to homeschooling in the first place was to be free
from early mornings for someone else's convenience. Jayn has always had the
opportunity and freedom to sleep when she wanted to, so I have to believe
that this schedule is natural to her. Fortunately we have a lifestyle that
permits us to honor her unusual needs. There are others that would not -
being farmers, needing two incomes, having multiple children - so I am not
recommending it, just offering a description.

The opportunity to write about this, and remind myself that my attitude is
what the makes to most difference to my happiness, at any time of the day or
night, is very much appreciated.

Robyn L. Coburn

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In a message dated 12/17/04 11:20:52 AM, dezigna@... writes:

<< <<<I'd like to hear stories from the other side-Kids Stayed up Until 3
am Every Night-Brains Intact-No Mush Here, Officials State.>>>>
>>

My whole kids' lives is the tale of that.
Anything I've ever written speaks to children who went to sleep when they
were sleepy. Not "3 am every night"--that's as inflexible as 8:30 very night.

The principles regarding sleep are that sleep has a biological purpose and
the clock doesn't know when people are sleepy. People WILL sleep. They must
sleep. They LIKE to sleep, when they're sleepy. People NEED to sleep.

Given all that, the "when" of sleeping has to do with consideration for
others. Is the person (child or adult) scheduled to be somewhere the next day? We
say "Count backward..." here and it means when do you need to get up? How
many hours will you have slept if you go to sleep now? In an hour? When do you
need to go to sleep to be sufficiently prepared for tomorrow?

If "tomorrow" isn't "a school day" but has its own individual unique
tomorrowness, then each evening's decisions are likewise unique. If tomorrow is
"nothing scheduled," a child who's actively engaged in something at midnight has
no read reason to go to sleep just because something *might* happen at 9:00 the
next day. Something *is* happening at midnight. So the priorities of
learning and of living with awareness in the moment trump the "maybe" of an
unscheduled tomorrow.

And another consideration is for them to be quiet and not disturb those who
are asleep. For our kids, the privilege of being up later than the neighbors
and parents has always been contingent on them doing it so quietly that it's
not an inconvenience for anyone else.

Sandra

Barbi

We don't have a bedtime around ehre. Jimbo is 10 and he's never had a schedule. I am lucky if I get 5 hours of sleep and dh never falls a sleep before 1 or 2. Our 16 y/o dd sleeps from about 4 or 5 am til 10 or so. There is always a tv or stereo on and at least one light all night long. LOL DD and I read alot so we've stayed awake reading as well.



I gave up on bedtime scheules as long as we all function I am alright with it.



Barbi ~
Homeschooling Mom.

If there is light in the soul, there will be beauty in the person.















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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rodney and Rebecca Atherton

I HAD to comment on the sleep schedule topic. Can I introduce myself after
I comment?

We had NO schedule. My hubby worked shift and was either working nights or
days, so we would stay up all night with him and watch movies. This went on
for years, everyone just moving along to their own rhythm. Then my 12 year
old wanted to try public school! I thought, "Oh no, he is used to staying
up all night and sleeping all day, this will never work." Family members
laughed and said, "He'll never be able to wake up early because you have not
put him on a schedule."

Well, this whole year, he has NEVER slept in late; in fact, he wakes up at
5:00am to play DIABLO for two hours before leaving for school. SOooooo, I
guess people can do what they need to do when they need to do it. If it's
not a "habit" it can be, quickly, we are very adaptive! So, don't worry
about not having a schedule, because when you NEED to have one, it only
takes a few days to make a new habit for yourself!

Rebecca in Texas

Mom to Matthan 12 (trying out public school), Kelsey 8, and Christian 3

Eric Donato

Hi Rebecca,

that's great! I secretly felt that it was not a biological factor that
caused our actions, but a desire which creates the motivation... I like
your family illustration!

Happy Winter Solstice, longer days!

Love, Jules.

On Dec 21, 2004, at 6:51 AM, Rodney and Rebecca Atherton wrote:

>
> I HAD to comment on the sleep schedule topic.  Can I introduce myself
> after
> I comment?
>
> We had NO schedule.  My hubby worked shift and was either working
> nights or
> days, so we would stay up all night with him and watch movies.  This
> went on
> for years, everyone just moving along to their own rhythm.  Then my
> 12 year
> old wanted to try public school!  I thought, "Oh no, he is used to
> staying
> up all night and sleeping all day, this will never work."  Family
> members
> laughed and said, "He'll never be able to wake up early because you
> have not
> put him on a schedule." 
>
> Well, this whole year, he has NEVER slept in late; in fact, he wakes
> up at
> 5:00am to play DIABLO for two hours before leaving for school. 
> SOooooo, I
> guess people can do what they need to do when they need to do it.  If
> it's
> not a "habit" it can be, quickly, we are very adaptive!  So, don't
> worry
> about not having a schedule, because when you NEED to have one, it
> only
> takes a few days to make a new habit for yourself!
>
> Rebecca in Texas
>
> Mom to Matthan 12 (trying out public school), Kelsey 8, and Christian
> 3
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> Service.
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Gold Standard

<<<I'd like to hear stories from the other side-Kids Stayed up Until 3
am Every Night-Brains Intact-No Mush Here, Officials State.>>>>

We run the gambit here for sleep schedules. I have four children 10, 12, 14,
& 15 and one dh. We all have our own preferences for sleeping, and I think
the challenge for us is making it work for all of us. My 12yo dd started
middle school this year (first time in ps) by her choice. This has really
given us some problems sleepwise to solve. The way our house is structured,
you can hear anything that's going on from most of the bedrooms. It actually
wouldn't be too bad if she closed her door, but she doesn't like to. She
wants the light out but the door open. So we've had some discussions, some
of them heated, about when/if the house should be quiet. Two of the boys
tend to hit the hay by midnight, and my 15yo has a different sleep schedule
each day and I guess the word "schedule" doesn't really apply to him. He can
be up till dawn, or asleep at 8pm. My dh is unintentionally loud in general,
and he has the dangest time moving around quietly. My boys like music,
movies, TV, video games, and goofing off together, and they do these things
at all awake hours. It is hard for them to remember that someone is trying
to sleep. Some of the solutions they have come up with together include
finding where they can be in the house to be louder that dh won't hear so
much, dh is wearing earplugs, she is trying to sleep with her door closed, I
sometimes go to bed with her with the door closed, etc. I guess the
important thing for us in this situation was that we listened to each other
and tried to come up with ways to respect everyone's needs. It is in process
still, but mostly works okay for now.

Someone mentioned that when someone wants to be up to do something with a
schedule, like attend school, the inspiration is there to do it. That is
certainly the case at our house as well. My 15yo has weekly film production
sessions that start at 9 and he hasn't missed a one, even though he's the
one that is most likely to still be up at dawn. My daughter hasn't been late
for school yet. If I made them do these things, I imagine it wouldn't work.
And I like Sandra's words about looking at what the day ahead requires for
sleep. That's the kind of structure we work with as well.

Happy Holidays!
Jacki

jwvastine

--- In [email protected], "Gold Standard" <jacki@b...>
wrote:

> the challenge for us is making it work for all of us. My 12yo dd
started
> middle school this year (first time in ps) by her choice. This has
really
> given us some problems sleepwise to solve.

Jacki,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. In our household, I work, and
sometimes at very strange hours. Sleep is very important to me, I'm
one of those people who doesn't function well on less than 8 hours.
This has been my challenge, coming to a place that works for all of
us. All the replies so far have added something to the think tank.
Thanks to all.
Judy