Personal Problem
[email protected]
Hi Ya,
My Brother-in-law has be accused and arrested last week and my sister wants to keep the little kids, hers 7, and 4 from ever ever knowing. I have been asked to help by taking her kids for a few days and by being in on the story they come up with. I have 2 problems. My husband has already decided the brother-in-law isn't worth any more trouble and does not want to help by letting the kids come here. He feels other people closer to them should take the burden. They have lots of extended family. Our home is small and they have been very critical of our lifestyle lately. The second problem is even bigger, because I feel I can not lie. I feel very strongly against it. I can handle telling their story in the short term, but what if this person winds up in jail for over a year. My sister has been advised by "experts" that it is ok not to tell the kids, ever ever, that their dad is in jail, that they can not handle this kind of info. I have 3 kids 10,7,4. My sister thinks they will have too much conflict of love and hate towards their uncle.
I really am looking for a direction here, from people I trust to help sort out what to do. Any support groups anyone knows of?
Thank you,
Mary, always trying to learn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My Brother-in-law has be accused and arrested last week and my sister wants to keep the little kids, hers 7, and 4 from ever ever knowing. I have been asked to help by taking her kids for a few days and by being in on the story they come up with. I have 2 problems. My husband has already decided the brother-in-law isn't worth any more trouble and does not want to help by letting the kids come here. He feels other people closer to them should take the burden. They have lots of extended family. Our home is small and they have been very critical of our lifestyle lately. The second problem is even bigger, because I feel I can not lie. I feel very strongly against it. I can handle telling their story in the short term, but what if this person winds up in jail for over a year. My sister has been advised by "experts" that it is ok not to tell the kids, ever ever, that their dad is in jail, that they can not handle this kind of info. I have 3 kids 10,7,4. My sister thinks they will have too much conflict of love and hate towards their uncle.
I really am looking for a direction here, from people I trust to help sort out what to do. Any support groups anyone knows of?
Thank you,
Mary, always trying to learn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Eric Donato
oh wow, your integrity is so much more important than keeping a secret
from being revealed... lies are terrible, once they exist you must deal
with having them, it will be the elephant in the middle of the room...
my family, the one I am born into, they have lots of secrets and lies,
and it has been a mess trying to figure out truth from it all... I wish
I knew what happened just the way it really occurred, no more stories,
but there is no way to force the truth out of a liar... so I see you
are at the beginning of a potential family secret, you could be the
only one who will ever tell the truth about it, you may keep your
integrity unlike the others...
jules.
mom to Shea 8 for only 3 more weeks, Kaden 6, Riley 3...
from being revealed... lies are terrible, once they exist you must deal
with having them, it will be the elephant in the middle of the room...
my family, the one I am born into, they have lots of secrets and lies,
and it has been a mess trying to figure out truth from it all... I wish
I knew what happened just the way it really occurred, no more stories,
but there is no way to force the truth out of a liar... so I see you
are at the beginning of a potential family secret, you could be the
only one who will ever tell the truth about it, you may keep your
integrity unlike the others...
jules.
mom to Shea 8 for only 3 more weeks, Kaden 6, Riley 3...
On Nov 8, 2004, at 2:48 PM, mfhickman@... wrote:
> Hi Ya,
>
> My Brother-in-law has be accused and arrested last week and my sister
> wants to keep the little kids, hers 7, and 4 from ever ever knowing. I
> have been asked to help by taking her kids for a few days and by being
> in on the story they come up with. I have 2 problems. My husband has
> already decided the brother-in-law isn't worth any more trouble and
> does not want to help by letting the kids come here. He feels other
> people closer to them should take the burden. They have lots of
> extended family. Our home is small and they have been very critical of
> our lifestyle lately. The second problem is even bigger, because I
> feel I can not lie. I feel very strongly against it. I can handle
> telling their story in the short term, but what if this person winds
> up in jail for over a year. My sister has been advised by "experts"
> that it is ok not to tell the kids, ever ever, that their dad is in
> jail, that they can not handle this kind of info. I have 3 kids
> 10,7,4. My sister thinks they will have too much conflict of love and
> hate towards their uncle.
>
> I really am looking for a direction here, from people I trust to help
> sort out what to do. Any support groups anyone knows of?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mary, always trying to learn
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
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April M
I will say, from experience, don't agree to keep the secrets. The pain of
finding out a secret later...and believe me, some how, some way, the truth
will come out some day....the pain then is so much worse than any pain from
finding out bad things about someone as a child. Children need to be told
things gently and maybe a bit at a time...but avoiding the truth and
deliberately changing the truth by lying causes so many problems....whether
the truth comes out in a year or ten years...it's a problem.
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions."
~~ Oliver Wendell Holmes (1809 - 1894)
-----Original Message-----
From: mfhickman@... [mailto:mfhickman@...]
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 5:48 PM
To: Always Learning
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Personal Problem
Hi Ya,
My Brother-in-law has be accused and arrested last week and my sister
wants to keep the little kids, hers 7, and 4 from ever ever knowing. I have
been asked to help by taking her kids for a few days and by being in on the
story they come up with. I have 2 problems. My husband has already decided
the brother-in-law isn't worth any more trouble and does not want to help by
letting the kids come here. He feels other people closer to them should take
the burden. They have lots of extended family. Our home is small and they
have been very critical of our lifestyle lately. The second problem is even
bigger, because I feel I can not lie. I feel very strongly against it. I can
handle telling their story in the short term, but what if this person winds
up in jail for over a year. My sister has been advised by "experts" that it
is ok not to tell the kids, ever ever, that their dad is in jail, that they
can not handle this kind of info. I have 3 kids 10,7,4. My sister thinks
they will have too much conflict of love and hate towards their uncle.
I really am looking for a direction here, from people I trust to help sort
out what to do. Any support groups anyone knows of?
Thank you,
Mary, always trying to learn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
It is better to give?
· Especially when giving to a child in
poverty.
· Click here to meet a child you can help.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
finding out a secret later...and believe me, some how, some way, the truth
will come out some day....the pain then is so much worse than any pain from
finding out bad things about someone as a child. Children need to be told
things gently and maybe a bit at a time...but avoiding the truth and
deliberately changing the truth by lying causes so many problems....whether
the truth comes out in a year or ten years...it's a problem.
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions."
~~ Oliver Wendell Holmes (1809 - 1894)
-----Original Message-----
From: mfhickman@... [mailto:mfhickman@...]
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 5:48 PM
To: Always Learning
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Personal Problem
Hi Ya,
My Brother-in-law has be accused and arrested last week and my sister
wants to keep the little kids, hers 7, and 4 from ever ever knowing. I have
been asked to help by taking her kids for a few days and by being in on the
story they come up with. I have 2 problems. My husband has already decided
the brother-in-law isn't worth any more trouble and does not want to help by
letting the kids come here. He feels other people closer to them should take
the burden. They have lots of extended family. Our home is small and they
have been very critical of our lifestyle lately. The second problem is even
bigger, because I feel I can not lie. I feel very strongly against it. I can
handle telling their story in the short term, but what if this person winds
up in jail for over a year. My sister has been advised by "experts" that it
is ok not to tell the kids, ever ever, that their dad is in jail, that they
can not handle this kind of info. I have 3 kids 10,7,4. My sister thinks
they will have too much conflict of love and hate towards their uncle.
I really am looking for a direction here, from people I trust to help sort
out what to do. Any support groups anyone knows of?
Thank you,
Mary, always trying to learn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
It is better to give?
· Especially when giving to a child in
poverty.
· Click here to meet a child you can help.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<My Brother-in-law has be accused and arrested last week and my sister
wants to keep the little kids, hers 7, and 4 from ever ever knowing. I have
been asked to help by taking her kids for a few days and by being in on the
story they come up with. I have 2 problems. My husband has already decided
the brother-in-law isn't worth any more trouble and does not want to help by
letting the kids come here. He feels other people closer to them should take
the burden. They have lots of extended family. Our home is small and they
have been very critical of our lifestyle lately. The second problem is even
bigger, because I feel I can not lie. I feel very strongly against it. I can
handle telling their story in the short term, but what if this person winds
up in jail for over a year. My sister has been advised by "experts" that it
is ok not to tell the kids, ever ever, that their dad is in jail, that they
can not handle this kind of info. I have 3 kids 10,7,4. My sister thinks
they will have too much conflict of love and hate towards their uncle.>>>>>>
Mary, I'm sorry this has happened to your family. I would suggest that your
focus first has to be your own children and dh, then your sister's kids, and
your sister. Perhaps if dh can look at it from the pov of helping the kids
rather than the BIL, that might make it easier for all of you.
I would never advise lying to children, but finding ways to tell them bad
news gently, and without exaggeration or focusing on details, unless they
ask. Maybe along the lines of their uncle has made a mistake, and is taking
responsibility for it and making amends to society. I hope you can suggest
to your dh that he refrain from being vocally critical in the kids'
presence.
Children always know that something is not right. The risk is that they
might sense they are being lied to and come to some erroneous alternative
conclusion, like Daddy left because of something they did wrong.
Eventually the truth will come out, it almost always does. The children, who
may even be adults when that happens, will immediately have cause to wonder
what else they were lied to about. They may be relieved, because finally the
mystery of why everyone was so tense and strange during that period has been
cleared up.
They may feel anger at the experts. When I was 5 I was sent to a boarding
school, while my mother went to Indonesia to work. It was explained that
civil unrest was making this a dangerous place for children (boy did I worry
about Mum!). What I never understood was why my grandparents, who lived
nearby, never came to see me, or take me out on the weekends like many other
kids. Loneliness. Unloved. I still remember the first time I tied my own
shoe lace. It was one of those empty Saturdays, and I was in the playground.
I had no-one I could show. In the last 10 years I finally talked to my
mother about it. It turns out some "experts" told them it would make it
worse for me if they visited. I'm still ready to scream at those asshole
experts, and I'm so sad for that little girl that I was. I'm 43.
It sounds like your sister is choosing you as a better caregiver than the
extended family of her husband. If they as a group advocate lying to
children, that may be one reason why, even if she has not articulated that
to herself. If you tell her that you don't agree with the lying plan, she
may make an alternative choice.
Good luck.
Robyn L. Coburn
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wants to keep the little kids, hers 7, and 4 from ever ever knowing. I have
been asked to help by taking her kids for a few days and by being in on the
story they come up with. I have 2 problems. My husband has already decided
the brother-in-law isn't worth any more trouble and does not want to help by
letting the kids come here. He feels other people closer to them should take
the burden. They have lots of extended family. Our home is small and they
have been very critical of our lifestyle lately. The second problem is even
bigger, because I feel I can not lie. I feel very strongly against it. I can
handle telling their story in the short term, but what if this person winds
up in jail for over a year. My sister has been advised by "experts" that it
is ok not to tell the kids, ever ever, that their dad is in jail, that they
can not handle this kind of info. I have 3 kids 10,7,4. My sister thinks
they will have too much conflict of love and hate towards their uncle.>>>>>>
Mary, I'm sorry this has happened to your family. I would suggest that your
focus first has to be your own children and dh, then your sister's kids, and
your sister. Perhaps if dh can look at it from the pov of helping the kids
rather than the BIL, that might make it easier for all of you.
I would never advise lying to children, but finding ways to tell them bad
news gently, and without exaggeration or focusing on details, unless they
ask. Maybe along the lines of their uncle has made a mistake, and is taking
responsibility for it and making amends to society. I hope you can suggest
to your dh that he refrain from being vocally critical in the kids'
presence.
Children always know that something is not right. The risk is that they
might sense they are being lied to and come to some erroneous alternative
conclusion, like Daddy left because of something they did wrong.
Eventually the truth will come out, it almost always does. The children, who
may even be adults when that happens, will immediately have cause to wonder
what else they were lied to about. They may be relieved, because finally the
mystery of why everyone was so tense and strange during that period has been
cleared up.
They may feel anger at the experts. When I was 5 I was sent to a boarding
school, while my mother went to Indonesia to work. It was explained that
civil unrest was making this a dangerous place for children (boy did I worry
about Mum!). What I never understood was why my grandparents, who lived
nearby, never came to see me, or take me out on the weekends like many other
kids. Loneliness. Unloved. I still remember the first time I tied my own
shoe lace. It was one of those empty Saturdays, and I was in the playground.
I had no-one I could show. In the last 10 years I finally talked to my
mother about it. It turns out some "experts" told them it would make it
worse for me if they visited. I'm still ready to scream at those asshole
experts, and I'm so sad for that little girl that I was. I'm 43.
It sounds like your sister is choosing you as a better caregiver than the
extended family of her husband. If they as a group advocate lying to
children, that may be one reason why, even if she has not articulated that
to herself. If you tell her that you don't agree with the lying plan, she
may make an alternative choice.
Good luck.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/2004 4:49:14 PM Central Standard Time,
mfhickman@... writes:
My husband has already decided the brother-in-law isn't worth any more
trouble and does not want to help by letting the kids come here.
~~
A few days, what could it hurt? How much closer can you be with your
sister's children than anyone else? They can go to the grandparents after
they've been with you.
If she's not going to tell them, that's her business. You shouldn't tell
them, either. Let them come to your house for a "vacation". They don't have
to know right away they're leaving town because there's a scandal brewing.
Maybe you can offer them some peace and calm that they're not getting from mom
at home right now.
They'll know eventually, and I think she should tell them, but I don't think
you should.
I'd like to know what he's accused of, because it could change my answer.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mfhickman@... writes:
My husband has already decided the brother-in-law isn't worth any more
trouble and does not want to help by letting the kids come here.
~~
A few days, what could it hurt? How much closer can you be with your
sister's children than anyone else? They can go to the grandparents after
they've been with you.
If she's not going to tell them, that's her business. You shouldn't tell
them, either. Let them come to your house for a "vacation". They don't have
to know right away they're leaving town because there's a scandal brewing.
Maybe you can offer them some peace and calm that they're not getting from mom
at home right now.
They'll know eventually, and I think she should tell them, but I don't think
you should.
I'd like to know what he's accused of, because it could change my answer.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/2004 9:02:17 PM Central Standard Time,
abmorris23@... writes:
I will say, from experience, don't agree to keep the secrets. The pain of
finding out a secret later...and believe me, some how, some way, the truth
will come out some day....the pain then is so much worse than any pain from
finding out bad things about someone as a child. Children need to be told
things gently and maybe a bit at a time...but avoiding the truth and
deliberately changing the truth by lying causes so many problems....whether
the truth comes out in a year or ten years...it's a problem.
~~~
But it's not the aunt's responsibility to tell the kids. It's the parent's.
And the aunt doesn't have to lie to them. She just has to omit any
conversation about it.
If the aunt can't be cheerful and peaceful and calm knowing the secret, then
she shoudn't be around the kids until they know. If she can put it out of
her mind for a few days, in the best interest of the children, knowing that
she's made it clear to her sister that she doesn't agree, and that the kids
should know, then I think that's best. Then she should see how it all shakes
out. I think it will become obvious that the kids know something is up, and
they will have to be told something. I believe it's going to become more
obvious to the mother that the kids should be told, too.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
abmorris23@... writes:
I will say, from experience, don't agree to keep the secrets. The pain of
finding out a secret later...and believe me, some how, some way, the truth
will come out some day....the pain then is so much worse than any pain from
finding out bad things about someone as a child. Children need to be told
things gently and maybe a bit at a time...but avoiding the truth and
deliberately changing the truth by lying causes so many problems....whether
the truth comes out in a year or ten years...it's a problem.
~~~
But it's not the aunt's responsibility to tell the kids. It's the parent's.
And the aunt doesn't have to lie to them. She just has to omit any
conversation about it.
If the aunt can't be cheerful and peaceful and calm knowing the secret, then
she shoudn't be around the kids until they know. If she can put it out of
her mind for a few days, in the best interest of the children, knowing that
she's made it clear to her sister that she doesn't agree, and that the kids
should know, then I think that's best. Then she should see how it all shakes
out. I think it will become obvious that the kids know something is up, and
they will have to be told something. I believe it's going to become more
obvious to the mother that the kids should be told, too.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
While I *might* agree to withhold truth from someone else's children, I
wouldn't even start to let them tell me to lie to my own.
-=-My husband has already decided the brother-in-law isn't worth any more
trouble and does not want to help by letting the kids come here. He feels other
people closer to them should take the burden. They have lots of extended
family.-=-
Good reason to say "No, sorry."
-=-Our home is small and they have been very critical of our lifestyle
lately. -=-
Even better reasons. Especially the criticism.
-=- have 3 kids 10,7,4. My sister thinks they will have too much conflict of
love and hate towards their uncle.-=-
Too damned bad.
If you lie, they will think worse of the uncle AND of you, when they learn
the truth.
Guard your relationship with your own children and let your brother in law
suffer all the real consequences of his actions.
Maybe if you tell your sister you're going to tell your kids the truth and if
she doesn't want hers to know she needs to keep them away from your kids, who
are too young to be trusted with that secret. That will easily get you off
the hook for childcare.
Not to be really cold, but it's bad enough for someone to screw up his own
family [I'm thinking of my mom's second husband, of my mom in general, of their
son (my half brother) and of several other people...] but if you agree to any
of that, he's screwing up your family too. And you would be helping him do
so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wouldn't even start to let them tell me to lie to my own.
-=-My husband has already decided the brother-in-law isn't worth any more
trouble and does not want to help by letting the kids come here. He feels other
people closer to them should take the burden. They have lots of extended
family.-=-
Good reason to say "No, sorry."
-=-Our home is small and they have been very critical of our lifestyle
lately. -=-
Even better reasons. Especially the criticism.
-=- have 3 kids 10,7,4. My sister thinks they will have too much conflict of
love and hate towards their uncle.-=-
Too damned bad.
If you lie, they will think worse of the uncle AND of you, when they learn
the truth.
Guard your relationship with your own children and let your brother in law
suffer all the real consequences of his actions.
Maybe if you tell your sister you're going to tell your kids the truth and if
she doesn't want hers to know she needs to keep them away from your kids, who
are too young to be trusted with that secret. That will easily get you off
the hook for childcare.
Not to be really cold, but it's bad enough for someone to screw up his own
family [I'm thinking of my mom's second husband, of my mom in general, of their
son (my half brother) and of several other people...] but if you agree to any
of that, he's screwing up your family too. And you would be helping him do
so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<But it's not the aunt's responsibility to tell the kids. It's the
parent's.
And the aunt doesn't have to lie to them. She just has to omit any
conversation about it. >>>>
Except that she has *been asked* to lie to all of the kids.
Maybe staying away would be the best idea. But she still has to give an
answer to her sister.
Robyn L. Coburn
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parent's.
And the aunt doesn't have to lie to them. She just has to omit any
conversation about it. >>>>
Except that she has *been asked* to lie to all of the kids.
Maybe staying away would be the best idea. But she still has to give an
answer to her sister.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Rodney and Rebecca Atherton
>Children need to be told things gentlyIt can be a learning experience for her kids. A negative example, if you
will.
When my hubby got a DWI, you better believe the kids knew. And the kids
also watched as I told the police, "How long can you legally keep him in
jail? Keep him that long, I'm not bailing him out." My kids now know that
if you drink and drive you could end up in jail and you have a mom who will
make sure you spend some quality time there.
Rebecca in Texas
I'm new to the list; I hope you all don't mind my posting before giving an
introduction! I have a 12 year old trying out public school this year for
the first time in his life - this year, an 8 year old daughter and a 3 year
old son. My husband does the shift work THANG so we have not had a normal
life in YEARS. Love long car trips and making web pages. My philosophies
are totally changing and I'm swinging around through a paradigm shift!
Dizzy. R
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/9/2004 1:32:24 AM Central Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:
<<<<But it's not the aunt's responsibility to tell the kids. It's the
parent's.
And the aunt doesn't have to lie to them. She just has to omit any
conversation about it. >>>>
Except that she has *been asked* to lie to all of the kids.
~~~
Oh, I didn't mean she shouldn't tell her own children. I think the story
doesn't have be told right away, and that the aunt's kids can come and stay for
a few days while there's tension in the air at their house. Choosing the
right time to tell something is not the same as lying. I don't think it's
lying to have the kids around and then just not talk about it.
The aunt is clearly ashamed of what her husband did (if he did it). She'd
probably like to believe that he didn't do it, but she doesn't, or she
wouldn't be afraid of what the kids will think. If she thought he was innocent,
she'd be screaming that to the rooftops, and it wouldn't matter to her what the
kids thought.
I definitely think all the kids should be told, and it would be a most
useful example if they were told by the accused person. Maybe a little lesson in
obvious remorse or righteous indignation of the falsely accused would do some
good for the kids.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
<<<<But it's not the aunt's responsibility to tell the kids. It's the
parent's.
And the aunt doesn't have to lie to them. She just has to omit any
conversation about it. >>>>
Except that she has *been asked* to lie to all of the kids.
~~~
Oh, I didn't mean she shouldn't tell her own children. I think the story
doesn't have be told right away, and that the aunt's kids can come and stay for
a few days while there's tension in the air at their house. Choosing the
right time to tell something is not the same as lying. I don't think it's
lying to have the kids around and then just not talk about it.
The aunt is clearly ashamed of what her husband did (if he did it). She'd
probably like to believe that he didn't do it, but she doesn't, or she
wouldn't be afraid of what the kids will think. If she thought he was innocent,
she'd be screaming that to the rooftops, and it wouldn't matter to her what the
kids thought.
I definitely think all the kids should be told, and it would be a most
useful example if they were told by the accused person. Maybe a little lesson in
obvious remorse or righteous indignation of the falsely accused would do some
good for the kids.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-=-When my hubby got a DWI, you better believe the kids knew. And the kids
also watched as I told the police, "How long can you legally keep him in
jail? Keep him that long, I'm not bailing him out." My kids now know that
if you drink and drive you could end up in jail and you have a mom who will
make sure you spend some quality time there.-=-
And after that maybe a wife!
You might've scared them straight for life.
So much better than teaching them, by example, to lie.
Sandra
also watched as I told the police, "How long can you legally keep him in
jail? Keep him that long, I'm not bailing him out." My kids now know that
if you drink and drive you could end up in jail and you have a mom who will
make sure you spend some quality time there.-=-
And after that maybe a wife!
You might've scared them straight for life.
So much better than teaching them, by example, to lie.
Sandra