missing out / being calm
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/04 4:53:13 AM, game-enthusiast@... writes:
<< It
seems so natural to me. It saddens me when I listen to other people’s
concerns for their children’s education. They are missing out, in a big
way, on today. >>
This is a long ramble; feel free to skip over it, or skip it altogether.
I'm up at 5:25. I've been awake for an hour. I felt a sharp tiny pain and
woke up thinking a bug had bitten me, so did that whole sweep out with my hand,
put the lamp on and look on the floor, disturb my husband (who might not have
woken up, honestly), and decide no, it was a crumb of broken corn small
enough to come out of my cornbag (heating device for my feet: cloth bag with corn
in, heated in the microwave).
Then I had a hot flash (because I'm old <g>) and I lay there thinking about
biochemistry and sleep and emotions. Then I started coughing and figured at
least Keith should sleep, so I'm up, drinking juice.
At unschooling.info/forum there is dicussion about the definition of
unschooling that touches on relationships. At unschooling.com there's a discussion
about Buddhism and such principles beinggood match for unschooling. They're s
娪⨀祩milar, but scattered out. And what I was thinking as I decided to get up
was that not everyone can or should unschool. And I was thinking about
stability of situations, and emotions, and families, and life.
That's too much thinking for this early in the morning!!
But some of the thoughts were about the flu epidemic, and tuberculosis, and
black lung, and lack of sanitation and antibiotics in the early 20th century.
When parents are dying through no fault of their own, maybe children could
use school as a safety net, a bit of continuity, and connections to the
community of their own, outside of their family's connections.
When masses of people are moving from striated societies to more idealistic
situations with potential or theoretical classlessness and equality, they need
the tools to get in there.
Maybe school, in 1910, was like the internet is today. Maybe school, in
1920, was what made a child real. Maybe "being a fourth grader," in 1930, was
better than being another starving, neglected, abused orphan.
"Things have changed."
Medically things have changed, but parents still die.
Financially things have changed, but parents are still unemployed sometimes,
or have financial difficulties.
Schools have changed. They're NOT the internet. They're not a conduit to
the best or only opportunity for learning.
But any choice needs to involve knowing at least one alternative.
Not all parents can provide a rich home environment. And even all of those
who want to.
And of those who want to can can, none of them can guarantee living until the
children are grown. And there are those scary times for unschoolers, when
in a snapshot moment they know their kids are "behind" (and "ahead" moments
often come too, I know) and they freak about the idea that if the kids suddenly
had to go to school it might not be smooth.
So I've added another item to my checklist of what will help unschooling, or
potentially hamper it. Peace or calm.
With some people, peace and calm are natural.
For some, it takes philosophy: reasons to be calm, self-calming messages.
For some, it takes practice: therapy, biofeedback, meditation, breathing
exercises.
Some don't have peace and calm, or don't want it, or don't even believe in it.
Or they might want it and believe in it, but their lives are buried in
stresses beyond their control. Or they might want it and be unable to arrange to
have it.
Some people are not well equipped with self awareness enough to feel stress
and learn how to overcome it in any physical or mental way. It picks them up
and shakes them, and they live in an overwhelmed state. Some people enjoy
turmoil, and steep in drama.
Some don't enjoy it but it keeps coming upon them.
1:30 a.m. (early Saturday morning) our phone rang three times. I was still
up talking to Marty, and Kirby was awake. He got it and I heard his end. It
was something like "Well just don't say anything stupid to your parents, and
be calm when the police get there. And don't call my house at 1:30 in the
morning anymore."
To Kirby I'm sure that seemed like reasonable and sensible advice.
A guy he knows from gaming, who was at his halloween party, who has been over
a few times to play games and who hangs out at Active Imagination, was in a
physical fight with his stepfather and his mom had called the police. He
wanted Kirby to come rescue him from the situation. Kirby logically said that he
couldn't make it there before the police came, and it wouldn't be cool to take
him away anyway, if the police wouldn't like it.
I asked if he had hurt his mom or stepdad. No.
Were there other kids? Two much younger sisters. (The guy is 15, I think.)
He said the police would probably take the stepdad, if anyone.
I said maybe the mom would like for the son to have another safe place to go.
He's not one of their favorite friends; he's irritating.
I said I would hope that if things got crazy at our house that if Kirby or
Marty were afraid enough to call someone else at 1:30 that they would get some
help.
After some quick discussion and option brainstorming, Kirby called back and
asked if he still wanted a rescue. Yes. He lives about seven miles away.
Marty went too. The police were there, talking to the parents, it was not
problem for the son to go with them. While they were gone I made beds on two
couches in the library for him and Kirby (whose room is being rearranged for a
window replacement and he wasn't going to sleep there anyway).
Because of my alcoholic mom and my experience with steparents on both sides
(when I was 18, but my sister was 14, 15), I sympathized.
Because of the fact that our family and house are NOT that way, no drunken f
ights in the middle of the night, no adults shaming and controlling kids, no
kids needing to tell adults they hate them and want to leave (or whatever all
happened there and happens all around), I also realized I didn't want to get
involved. But this little exposure was probably good for my boys. I did ask
Kirby to tell him it was a one-shot deal, and gave him some excuses and reasons
to offer if he needed to, that I didn't want them exposed to craziness because
of my own background, or whatever.
So they got a peek at NOT calm.
And when I woke up thinking "bug bite?" and hot flash and then coughing, I
could have been angry or frustrated, and let the adrenaline come and make
everything worse. I could have woken Keith up and whined and complained. Years
ago, I might have done any or all of that. But because I decided when I was
pregnant with Kirby that I needed to become a calm and thoughtful mom and really
concentrate on doing that, I no longer need to concentrate to do it. Now I can
be uncomfortable and a little afraid without turning it into pain and VERY
afraid.
If I couldn't do that, I think unschooling would not work as well.
So I've scattered parts all over the table here. Anyone want to mess with
putting any of them together or seeing what's missing from the set?
Sandra
<< It
seems so natural to me. It saddens me when I listen to other people’s
concerns for their children’s education. They are missing out, in a big
way, on today. >>
This is a long ramble; feel free to skip over it, or skip it altogether.
I'm up at 5:25. I've been awake for an hour. I felt a sharp tiny pain and
woke up thinking a bug had bitten me, so did that whole sweep out with my hand,
put the lamp on and look on the floor, disturb my husband (who might not have
woken up, honestly), and decide no, it was a crumb of broken corn small
enough to come out of my cornbag (heating device for my feet: cloth bag with corn
in, heated in the microwave).
Then I had a hot flash (because I'm old <g>) and I lay there thinking about
biochemistry and sleep and emotions. Then I started coughing and figured at
least Keith should sleep, so I'm up, drinking juice.
At unschooling.info/forum there is dicussion about the definition of
unschooling that touches on relationships. At unschooling.com there's a discussion
about Buddhism and such principles beinggood match for unschooling. They're s
娪⨀祩milar, but scattered out. And what I was thinking as I decided to get up
was that not everyone can or should unschool. And I was thinking about
stability of situations, and emotions, and families, and life.
That's too much thinking for this early in the morning!!
But some of the thoughts were about the flu epidemic, and tuberculosis, and
black lung, and lack of sanitation and antibiotics in the early 20th century.
When parents are dying through no fault of their own, maybe children could
use school as a safety net, a bit of continuity, and connections to the
community of their own, outside of their family's connections.
When masses of people are moving from striated societies to more idealistic
situations with potential or theoretical classlessness and equality, they need
the tools to get in there.
Maybe school, in 1910, was like the internet is today. Maybe school, in
1920, was what made a child real. Maybe "being a fourth grader," in 1930, was
better than being another starving, neglected, abused orphan.
"Things have changed."
Medically things have changed, but parents still die.
Financially things have changed, but parents are still unemployed sometimes,
or have financial difficulties.
Schools have changed. They're NOT the internet. They're not a conduit to
the best or only opportunity for learning.
But any choice needs to involve knowing at least one alternative.
Not all parents can provide a rich home environment. And even all of those
who want to.
And of those who want to can can, none of them can guarantee living until the
children are grown. And there are those scary times for unschoolers, when
in a snapshot moment they know their kids are "behind" (and "ahead" moments
often come too, I know) and they freak about the idea that if the kids suddenly
had to go to school it might not be smooth.
So I've added another item to my checklist of what will help unschooling, or
potentially hamper it. Peace or calm.
With some people, peace and calm are natural.
For some, it takes philosophy: reasons to be calm, self-calming messages.
For some, it takes practice: therapy, biofeedback, meditation, breathing
exercises.
Some don't have peace and calm, or don't want it, or don't even believe in it.
Or they might want it and believe in it, but their lives are buried in
stresses beyond their control. Or they might want it and be unable to arrange to
have it.
Some people are not well equipped with self awareness enough to feel stress
and learn how to overcome it in any physical or mental way. It picks them up
and shakes them, and they live in an overwhelmed state. Some people enjoy
turmoil, and steep in drama.
Some don't enjoy it but it keeps coming upon them.
1:30 a.m. (early Saturday morning) our phone rang three times. I was still
up talking to Marty, and Kirby was awake. He got it and I heard his end. It
was something like "Well just don't say anything stupid to your parents, and
be calm when the police get there. And don't call my house at 1:30 in the
morning anymore."
To Kirby I'm sure that seemed like reasonable and sensible advice.
A guy he knows from gaming, who was at his halloween party, who has been over
a few times to play games and who hangs out at Active Imagination, was in a
physical fight with his stepfather and his mom had called the police. He
wanted Kirby to come rescue him from the situation. Kirby logically said that he
couldn't make it there before the police came, and it wouldn't be cool to take
him away anyway, if the police wouldn't like it.
I asked if he had hurt his mom or stepdad. No.
Were there other kids? Two much younger sisters. (The guy is 15, I think.)
He said the police would probably take the stepdad, if anyone.
I said maybe the mom would like for the son to have another safe place to go.
He's not one of their favorite friends; he's irritating.
I said I would hope that if things got crazy at our house that if Kirby or
Marty were afraid enough to call someone else at 1:30 that they would get some
help.
After some quick discussion and option brainstorming, Kirby called back and
asked if he still wanted a rescue. Yes. He lives about seven miles away.
Marty went too. The police were there, talking to the parents, it was not
problem for the son to go with them. While they were gone I made beds on two
couches in the library for him and Kirby (whose room is being rearranged for a
window replacement and he wasn't going to sleep there anyway).
Because of my alcoholic mom and my experience with steparents on both sides
(when I was 18, but my sister was 14, 15), I sympathized.
Because of the fact that our family and house are NOT that way, no drunken f
ights in the middle of the night, no adults shaming and controlling kids, no
kids needing to tell adults they hate them and want to leave (or whatever all
happened there and happens all around), I also realized I didn't want to get
involved. But this little exposure was probably good for my boys. I did ask
Kirby to tell him it was a one-shot deal, and gave him some excuses and reasons
to offer if he needed to, that I didn't want them exposed to craziness because
of my own background, or whatever.
So they got a peek at NOT calm.
And when I woke up thinking "bug bite?" and hot flash and then coughing, I
could have been angry or frustrated, and let the adrenaline come and make
everything worse. I could have woken Keith up and whined and complained. Years
ago, I might have done any or all of that. But because I decided when I was
pregnant with Kirby that I needed to become a calm and thoughtful mom and really
concentrate on doing that, I no longer need to concentrate to do it. Now I can
be uncomfortable and a little afraid without turning it into pain and VERY
afraid.
If I couldn't do that, I think unschooling would not work as well.
So I've scattered parts all over the table here. Anyone want to mess with
putting any of them together or seeing what's missing from the set?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/2004 9:07:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
When parents are dying through no fault of their own, maybe children could
use school as a safety net, a bit of continuity, and connections to the
community of their own, outside of their family's connections.<<<<<<<
Just in looking at this one part of your post I have some observations to
add. I have not known any unschooling parents that have died, or even
homeschooling parents. I have known two parents that have died and have children in
public school. And public school did not provide that sense of continuity or
connection or calm.
What I observed was that the child would bring some of the stress of home to
school with them. I would think it would be impossible to NOT do that. But
the teachers and administrators, even though they were aware of the stresses
at home, would not try to help the child at all. The child became the
"nuisance child" at school. Started getting sent to the principal's office,
getting detention. The teachers started calling home saying that the child just
wasn't paying attention in class, something had to be done etc. Which adds to
the stress at home on all concerned.
In the two instances that I had a chance to observe, school became another
stressor. Now I have to add in the disclaimer. I do not know the teacher's
side of things, only what the parents had told me.
Anyway, just my observations.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
When parents are dying through no fault of their own, maybe children could
use school as a safety net, a bit of continuity, and connections to the
community of their own, outside of their family's connections.<<<<<<<
Just in looking at this one part of your post I have some observations to
add. I have not known any unschooling parents that have died, or even
homeschooling parents. I have known two parents that have died and have children in
public school. And public school did not provide that sense of continuity or
connection or calm.
What I observed was that the child would bring some of the stress of home to
school with them. I would think it would be impossible to NOT do that. But
the teachers and administrators, even though they were aware of the stresses
at home, would not try to help the child at all. The child became the
"nuisance child" at school. Started getting sent to the principal's office,
getting detention. The teachers started calling home saying that the child just
wasn't paying attention in class, something had to be done etc. Which adds to
the stress at home on all concerned.
In the two instances that I had a chance to observe, school became another
stressor. Now I have to add in the disclaimer. I do not know the teacher's
side of things, only what the parents had told me.
Anyway, just my observations.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
Some don't have peace and calm, or don't want it, or don't even believe in it.
Or they might want it and believe in it, but their lives are buried in
stresses beyond their control. Or they might want it and be unable to arrange to
have it.**
Yes, I agree with the idea that it can be unfeasible to come to unschooling if you are having a really stressful life.
As to someone not *wanting* to be peaceful and calm, I think there is a really strong subconscious value in our culture that a "good mom" hovers and worries nearly constantly. I believe one has to reject that idea in order to have peace with the uneven "academic development" that often comes with unschooling.
When someone believes that worrying is the right thing to do and backs that up with directing her kids lives very closely, I think that is likely to clash quite a bit with deschooling and with typical unschooling. (The hypothetical worried-but-still-unschooling mom that I am describing might do okay with a kid who was focused AND energetic AND postive AND bookish. Or some other close approximation of being an unschooling poster child. <g>)
Betsy
PS From the time he was 3 or 4, James has shown good sense in thinking before leaping. He has really good judgement about what he can and can't do on the playground without falling, and very rarely hurts himself. (Wrestling with dad is the exception. <g>) Thus, it was easy for me to trust him from a young age. It's understandable that a mom who's kid is drawn to danger and harm would get very vigilant and might get stuck in that role for more years than necessary.)
Some don't have peace and calm, or don't want it, or don't even believe in it.
Or they might want it and believe in it, but their lives are buried in
stresses beyond their control. Or they might want it and be unable to arrange to
have it.**
Yes, I agree with the idea that it can be unfeasible to come to unschooling if you are having a really stressful life.
As to someone not *wanting* to be peaceful and calm, I think there is a really strong subconscious value in our culture that a "good mom" hovers and worries nearly constantly. I believe one has to reject that idea in order to have peace with the uneven "academic development" that often comes with unschooling.
When someone believes that worrying is the right thing to do and backs that up with directing her kids lives very closely, I think that is likely to clash quite a bit with deschooling and with typical unschooling. (The hypothetical worried-but-still-unschooling mom that I am describing might do okay with a kid who was focused AND energetic AND postive AND bookish. Or some other close approximation of being an unschooling poster child. <g>)
Betsy
PS From the time he was 3 or 4, James has shown good sense in thinking before leaping. He has really good judgement about what he can and can't do on the playground without falling, and very rarely hurts himself. (Wrestling with dad is the exception. <g>) Thus, it was easy for me to trust him from a young age. It's understandable that a mom who's kid is drawn to danger and harm would get very vigilant and might get stuck in that role for more years than necessary.)
kayb85
--- In [email protected],
they thought it was okay to give themselves permission to do so.
What it took for me to get it was to give myself permission to enjoy
life and to do things the way I wanted to do them instead of living
my life pushing myself to do things just because I felt for some
reason that I "should".
I didn't start out parenting the way my instincts would have told me
to if I had listened to my instincts. It thought it was wrong to
listen to my instincts...You know, the Bible verse that says to lean
not on your own understanding but to look to God to direct your
paths. I had it hammered into my head for my whole life that
sometimes things will seem to be right but if they contradicted with
what you "knew to be right", then to not listen to them because our
own fleshly desires are just wrong and sinful, and satan will use
them to deceive us. So I ignored what I wanted and did what I
should, always. I listened to Christian parenting advocates who told
you that it's important to teach your kids to listen to arbitrary
rules that don't make sense and to obey you just because, because
someday they'll think a command in the Bible doesn't make sense and
they should be trained to ignore their own deceitful hearts and
listen to God no matter what.
Even once I got over that and became an unschooler, it took me a long
while to realize that I could just enjoy life and parent my kids
naturally and listen to my own instincts and just love them and enjoy
them. I did everything the way that I "should", and for awhile I
thought that meant that I should do everything they ever asked me to
do the minute they asked me to do it. If one child wanted to be up
until 3 am but didn't want to stay up without me, I'd stay up with
him AND get up with another child at 7 am when he wanted me up. And
if one child wanted a hot dog at 2 am and we didn't have hot dogs,
I'd run him to 24 hour wal-mart at 2 am. I literally turned myself
into a human doormat and become my children's servant instead of
their mom. They would fight over what they wanted me to do with
them, and they became demanding of me. All because I wanted to do
it "right". I took the "say yes as much as possible" aspect of
unschooling to the extreme, because in my mind you technically could
ignore your own needs SO much that you run yourself ragged never
saying no. It is humanly possible to not love yourself much at all
and to do that. I didn't realize it at the time that this was still
one more layer from my former belief of "do things right, not the way
you feel".
Until I realized my needs mattered too and that it really was a good
thing to love myself as much as I loved my children, THEN our home
became much more peaceful. Because until that time the learning was
child-led and fit every definition of unschooling there could be but
it still wasn't as peaceful as it could have been because *I* wasn't
at peace in my own heart.
The philosophy that I carried to the extreme is a philosophy that's
ubiquitous in our culture I think. Most people don't carry it as far
as I did, but it's something that's preached not only in churches but
in schools and scouts and gov't and everywhere.
If everyone believed in the philosophy of enjoy life, enjoy your
children, love yourself and love your children, do what your heart
tells you to do and follow your instincts....well, I think this world
would be a much more peaceful, happy place!
So maybe another thing to add to your checklist, Sandra, would be
that in order for unschooling to work as well as it possibly can, the
parent has to focus on emotional wholeness for herself. It's hard to
help a child grow up emotionally whole if the parent isn't whole
herself. I don't think it has to come first though, because in our
family, unschooling was one of the major vehicles that led the whole
family to emotional wholeness.
Sheila
> Some don't have peace and calm, or don't want it, or don't evenbelieve in it.
> Or they might want it and believe in it, but their lives areburied in
> stresses beyond their control. Or they might want it and be unableto arrange to
> have it.Some people want it and would be capable of arranging to have it if
they thought it was okay to give themselves permission to do so.
What it took for me to get it was to give myself permission to enjoy
life and to do things the way I wanted to do them instead of living
my life pushing myself to do things just because I felt for some
reason that I "should".
I didn't start out parenting the way my instincts would have told me
to if I had listened to my instincts. It thought it was wrong to
listen to my instincts...You know, the Bible verse that says to lean
not on your own understanding but to look to God to direct your
paths. I had it hammered into my head for my whole life that
sometimes things will seem to be right but if they contradicted with
what you "knew to be right", then to not listen to them because our
own fleshly desires are just wrong and sinful, and satan will use
them to deceive us. So I ignored what I wanted and did what I
should, always. I listened to Christian parenting advocates who told
you that it's important to teach your kids to listen to arbitrary
rules that don't make sense and to obey you just because, because
someday they'll think a command in the Bible doesn't make sense and
they should be trained to ignore their own deceitful hearts and
listen to God no matter what.
Even once I got over that and became an unschooler, it took me a long
while to realize that I could just enjoy life and parent my kids
naturally and listen to my own instincts and just love them and enjoy
them. I did everything the way that I "should", and for awhile I
thought that meant that I should do everything they ever asked me to
do the minute they asked me to do it. If one child wanted to be up
until 3 am but didn't want to stay up without me, I'd stay up with
him AND get up with another child at 7 am when he wanted me up. And
if one child wanted a hot dog at 2 am and we didn't have hot dogs,
I'd run him to 24 hour wal-mart at 2 am. I literally turned myself
into a human doormat and become my children's servant instead of
their mom. They would fight over what they wanted me to do with
them, and they became demanding of me. All because I wanted to do
it "right". I took the "say yes as much as possible" aspect of
unschooling to the extreme, because in my mind you technically could
ignore your own needs SO much that you run yourself ragged never
saying no. It is humanly possible to not love yourself much at all
and to do that. I didn't realize it at the time that this was still
one more layer from my former belief of "do things right, not the way
you feel".
Until I realized my needs mattered too and that it really was a good
thing to love myself as much as I loved my children, THEN our home
became much more peaceful. Because until that time the learning was
child-led and fit every definition of unschooling there could be but
it still wasn't as peaceful as it could have been because *I* wasn't
at peace in my own heart.
The philosophy that I carried to the extreme is a philosophy that's
ubiquitous in our culture I think. Most people don't carry it as far
as I did, but it's something that's preached not only in churches but
in schools and scouts and gov't and everywhere.
If everyone believed in the philosophy of enjoy life, enjoy your
children, love yourself and love your children, do what your heart
tells you to do and follow your instincts....well, I think this world
would be a much more peaceful, happy place!
So maybe another thing to add to your checklist, Sandra, would be
that in order for unschooling to work as well as it possibly can, the
parent has to focus on emotional wholeness for herself. It's hard to
help a child grow up emotionally whole if the parent isn't whole
herself. I don't think it has to come first though, because in our
family, unschooling was one of the major vehicles that led the whole
family to emotional wholeness.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/2004 4:54:56 PM Mountain Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:
I had it hammered into my head for my whole life that
sometimes things will seem to be right but if they contradicted with
what you "knew to be right", then to not listen to them
=========
And it wasn't only religion doing that.
I was told in school in the 60's and 70's that humans had no instincts, that
everything we knew or learned came from previous generations in writing. And
I wrote that down. But it wasn't true.
I had hoped that that was the tail end of some pre-psychology 17/18th century
stuff, but a younger friend who was in college in the mid 1980's said they
told him the same thing. Instincts have been extinguished in humans.
In those days I was pregnant, and had a baby. I was a mass of instincts. <g>
-=- I listened to Christian parenting advocates who told
you that it's important to teach your kids to listen to arbitrary
rules that don't make sense and to obey you just because, because
someday they'll think a command in the Bible doesn't make sense and
they should be trained to ignore their own deceitful hearts and
listen to God no matter what.
-=-
My favorite example is people saying if your children don't obey you
instantly without considering first whether they should, that they will not obey you
when you tell them to get out off the road or off the tracks when a train is
coming. WELL! There's a reason to spank a child who won't get off a swing in
one second. The train might hit him. There are kids who come to wish a
train would hit them, they've been told "no" so much. Meanwhile, my kids who
always hear "okay, if you think it's safe," or "go ahead for a while more" would
IMMEDIATELY jump out of anything's way if they heard a frightened "NO!" from me
(or from anyone else! <g>).
-=-It's hard to
help a child grow up emotionally whole if the parent isn't whole
herself. I don't think it has to come first though, because in our
family, unschooling was one of the major vehicles that led the whole
family to emotional wholeness.
-=-
One thing the author of Whole Child, Whole Parent wrote once was that people
often confuse the book's title. She said something like if the parent
understands the child's self... I can't quote it. Sorry. It was from a summary of
the book online somewhere and I don't want to misquote. But it was basically
that if you see the child as a Seeing Being, you know you are and always were
one too. or something. <g> Sorry. I thought I knew where I was going with
that, but it fizzled out.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheran@... writes:
I had it hammered into my head for my whole life that
sometimes things will seem to be right but if they contradicted with
what you "knew to be right", then to not listen to them
=========
And it wasn't only religion doing that.
I was told in school in the 60's and 70's that humans had no instincts, that
everything we knew or learned came from previous generations in writing. And
I wrote that down. But it wasn't true.
I had hoped that that was the tail end of some pre-psychology 17/18th century
stuff, but a younger friend who was in college in the mid 1980's said they
told him the same thing. Instincts have been extinguished in humans.
In those days I was pregnant, and had a baby. I was a mass of instincts. <g>
-=- I listened to Christian parenting advocates who told
you that it's important to teach your kids to listen to arbitrary
rules that don't make sense and to obey you just because, because
someday they'll think a command in the Bible doesn't make sense and
they should be trained to ignore their own deceitful hearts and
listen to God no matter what.
-=-
My favorite example is people saying if your children don't obey you
instantly without considering first whether they should, that they will not obey you
when you tell them to get out off the road or off the tracks when a train is
coming. WELL! There's a reason to spank a child who won't get off a swing in
one second. The train might hit him. There are kids who come to wish a
train would hit them, they've been told "no" so much. Meanwhile, my kids who
always hear "okay, if you think it's safe," or "go ahead for a while more" would
IMMEDIATELY jump out of anything's way if they heard a frightened "NO!" from me
(or from anyone else! <g>).
-=-It's hard to
help a child grow up emotionally whole if the parent isn't whole
herself. I don't think it has to come first though, because in our
family, unschooling was one of the major vehicles that led the whole
family to emotional wholeness.
-=-
One thing the author of Whole Child, Whole Parent wrote once was that people
often confuse the book's title. She said something like if the parent
understands the child's self... I can't quote it. Sorry. It was from a summary of
the book online somewhere and I don't want to misquote. But it was basically
that if you see the child as a Seeing Being, you know you are and always were
one too. or something. <g> Sorry. I thought I knew where I was going with
that, but it fizzled out.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
julie w
SandraDodd@... wrote:
school. Ds is wwwaaaayyy "behind" in what schools consider important so
he would have a hard time of it.
Of course there is always a chance that our homeschooling friends would
step in and fill the void in a way that might help Jim feel like Josh
would have options to hang out with other families and not be home all
day by himself. That would be my hope, but they all have busy lives and
we are out far and Tuck lives 3 hours away ~sniff~
If I was gone after ds is older dh might let him stay home and make his
own way...navigate rides to activities and find what he wanted to do.
Its one of those things that has to go through my mind way late at night
when I am already unable to sleep.
Julie W in AR
>And there are those scary times for unschoolers, whenIf I died dh, I think, would feel he had no choice but to put Josh in
>in a snapshot moment they know their kids are "behind" (and "ahead" moments
>often come too, I know) and they freak about the idea that if the kids suddenly
>had to go to school it might not be smooth.
>
school. Ds is wwwaaaayyy "behind" in what schools consider important so
he would have a hard time of it.
Of course there is always a chance that our homeschooling friends would
step in and fill the void in a way that might help Jim feel like Josh
would have options to hang out with other families and not be home all
day by himself. That would be my hope, but they all have busy lives and
we are out far and Tuck lives 3 hours away ~sniff~
If I was gone after ds is older dh might let him stay home and make his
own way...navigate rides to activities and find what he wanted to do.
Its one of those things that has to go through my mind way late at night
when I am already unable to sleep.
Julie W in AR
Barbara Chase
>There are kids who come to wish a train would hit them, they've beenWhenever I've heard the argument that I need to train my daughter to listen
>told "no" so much. Meanwhile, my kids who always hear "okay, if you
>think it's safe," or "go ahead for a while more" would IMMEDIATELY jump
>out of anything's way if they heard a frightened "NO!" from me (or from
>anyone else! <g>).
to me just in case I've always thought... why would she listen to me if I
constantly made up lame reasons to say NO. Isn't that what the Peter and
the Wolf fable is about?
>But it was basically that if you see the child as a Seeing Being, youI got something from it... . Like if you can see it in your child, then
>know you are and always were one too. or something. <g> Sorry. I
>thought I knew where I was going with that, but it fizzled out.
you can see it in yourself -- which is the part that needed seeing when you
were a child, and is the part that needs healing and the part that needs to
be brought back into your life to make it whole. (Using 'you' here in a
very generic way.)
--bc--
ps. I loved your original post. Saving that one to read again, and again.
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/2004 8:08:08 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Because of the fact that our family and house are NOT that way, no drunken f
ights in the middle of the night, no adults shaming and controlling kids, no
kids needing to tell adults they hate them and want to leave (or whatever
all
happened there and happens all around),
~~~
I can so sympathize with the family of the 15 yo boy. We have a stepdad
situation, here, too. Even in an unschooling house, with no drunken fights and
no shaming and controlling, things can go wrong with 15 yo boys. We had a
similar occurence with an angry 15 yo, who threatened to hit me (he was upset
over a girl and it clouded everything he said or did for weeks). Stepdad
stepped in, and it became a little physical tussle, no one got hurt, but the boy
walked out of the house at midnight and walked four miles barefoot in the
dark in a not-so-safe part of Memphis before we found him.
I would have been *thrilled* if he had had a guy like Kirby to call in the
middle of the night. He ended up calling home from a pay phone at a closed
gas station, hours later. This after I had driven the streets and talked to
cops who gave me the number to juvenile detention whom I called in case he'd
been picked up for curfew.
What a compliment to Kirby that this boy called him. How smart he was to
say "don't say stupid things" and "stay calm". It seems like the obvious thing
to say in cold analysis, but it doesn't always come to mind when you have an
iffy family history.
I learned my lesson about getting involved in domestic things when I took in
a woman and her children for two weeks. Her husband was wicked, and I'm
sure she's probably still with him, and he's probably still wicked. Now I know
how far I can go before I get entangled.
I still think I have a certain responsbility to do what I can for people who
need help *without* damaging or hindering the life of my family in any way.
I think we all do.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Because of the fact that our family and house are NOT that way, no drunken f
ights in the middle of the night, no adults shaming and controlling kids, no
kids needing to tell adults they hate them and want to leave (or whatever
all
happened there and happens all around),
~~~
I can so sympathize with the family of the 15 yo boy. We have a stepdad
situation, here, too. Even in an unschooling house, with no drunken fights and
no shaming and controlling, things can go wrong with 15 yo boys. We had a
similar occurence with an angry 15 yo, who threatened to hit me (he was upset
over a girl and it clouded everything he said or did for weeks). Stepdad
stepped in, and it became a little physical tussle, no one got hurt, but the boy
walked out of the house at midnight and walked four miles barefoot in the
dark in a not-so-safe part of Memphis before we found him.
I would have been *thrilled* if he had had a guy like Kirby to call in the
middle of the night. He ended up calling home from a pay phone at a closed
gas station, hours later. This after I had driven the streets and talked to
cops who gave me the number to juvenile detention whom I called in case he'd
been picked up for curfew.
What a compliment to Kirby that this boy called him. How smart he was to
say "don't say stupid things" and "stay calm". It seems like the obvious thing
to say in cold analysis, but it doesn't always come to mind when you have an
iffy family history.
I learned my lesson about getting involved in domestic things when I took in
a woman and her children for two weeks. Her husband was wicked, and I'm
sure she's probably still with him, and he's probably still wicked. Now I know
how far I can go before I get entangled.
I still think I have a certain responsbility to do what I can for people who
need help *without* damaging or hindering the life of my family in any way.
I think we all do.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/7/04 9:17:35 PM, barb@... writes:
<< I got something from it... . Like if you can see it in your child, then
you can see it in yourself -- which is the part that needed seeing when you
were a child, and is the part that needs healing and the part that needs to
be brought back into your life to make it whole. (Using 'you' here in a
very generic way.) >>
Yes. Between the two of us we've vaguely clarified it. <bwg> Thanks.
If we wait until WE are whole to see our children as whole, we might look
around and they're 35. If we can manage to see it in them, we will know it's in
us too.
Sandra
<< I got something from it... . Like if you can see it in your child, then
you can see it in yourself -- which is the part that needed seeing when you
were a child, and is the part that needs healing and the part that needs to
be brought back into your life to make it whole. (Using 'you' here in a
very generic way.) >>
Yes. Between the two of us we've vaguely clarified it. <bwg> Thanks.
If we wait until WE are whole to see our children as whole, we might look
around and they're 35. If we can manage to see it in them, we will know it's in
us too.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/04 6:43:00 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
<< What a compliment to Kirby that this boy called him. How smart he was to
say "don't say stupid things" and "stay calm". It seems like the obvious
thing
to say in cold analysis, but it doesn't always come to mind when you have an
iffy family history.
Maybe that's because in my own thoughts the fear and potential ensuing
craziness came up. I was half and half between knowing how it feels to be afraid of
drunks in the middle of the night, and wanting to continue to protect the
rest of my family from knowing.
But honestly, they can't know it because they're coming from a safer place.
Keith missed it. His family is very quiet, and I think none of them was ever
up after midnight. <bwg> Their meanness was passive and cold, not loud and
fiery.
Sandra
<< What a compliment to Kirby that this boy called him. How smart he was to
say "don't say stupid things" and "stay calm". It seems like the obvious
thing
to say in cold analysis, but it doesn't always come to mind when you have an
iffy family history.
>>Thanks. I hadn't thought of it that way.
Maybe that's because in my own thoughts the fear and potential ensuing
craziness came up. I was half and half between knowing how it feels to be afraid of
drunks in the middle of the night, and wanting to continue to protect the
rest of my family from knowing.
But honestly, they can't know it because they're coming from a safer place.
Keith missed it. His family is very quiet, and I think none of them was ever
up after midnight. <bwg> Their meanness was passive and cold, not loud and
fiery.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/04 7:52:30 AM, jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
<< If I died dh, I think, would feel he had no choice but to put Josh in
school. Ds is wwwaaaayyy "behind" in what schools consider important so
he would have a hard time of it. >>
When it can come up casually (like this time of year, when benefits-package
options are being finalized where Keith works), I remind him that life
insurance on me could help him stay home with the kids if I died.
But now that they're older (Holly turned 13 last month, Kirby's already 18),
they could stay home on their own. Both the boys drive and could take Holly
places. They all read and spell (I hesitate to say "write," because they do
best with keyboards), and so are past the scary range.
Sandra
<< If I died dh, I think, would feel he had no choice but to put Josh in
school. Ds is wwwaaaayyy "behind" in what schools consider important so
he would have a hard time of it. >>
When it can come up casually (like this time of year, when benefits-package
options are being finalized where Keith works), I remind him that life
insurance on me could help him stay home with the kids if I died.
But now that they're older (Holly turned 13 last month, Kirby's already 18),
they could stay home on their own. Both the boys drive and could take Holly
places. They all read and spell (I hesitate to say "write," because they do
best with keyboards), and so are past the scary range.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/2004 10:36:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
I remind him that life
insurance on me could help him stay home with the kids if I died.<<<<
We have planned that way as well and I have life insurance on me so that if
something were to happen to me, he could stay home with the boys.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
I remind him that life
insurance on me could help him stay home with the kids if I died.<<<<
We have planned that way as well and I have life insurance on me so that if
something were to happen to me, he could stay home with the boys.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
on 11/8/04 7:32 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
y.o. dd dragged out the old math books the other day, complained I hadn't
taught her long division, and wondered if dad could teach her...
Nancy
--
The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what
they become by it.
- John Ruskin
>I had a really close brush with death a week ago; maybe that's why my 17
>
> In a message dated 11/8/04 7:52:30 AM, jjjwoolfolk@... writes:
>
> << If I died dh, I think, would feel he had no choice but to put Josh in
>
> school. Ds is wwwaaaayyy "behind" in what schools consider important so
>
> he would have a hard time of it. >>
>
> When it can come up casually (like this time of year, when benefits-package
> options are being finalized where Keith works), I remind him that life
> insurance on me could help him stay home with the kids if I died.
>
> But now that they're older (Holly turned 13 last month, Kirby's already 18),
> they could stay home on their own. Both the boys drive and could take Holly
> places. They all read and spell (I hesitate to say "write," because they do
> best with keyboards), and so are past the scary range.
>
y.o. dd dragged out the old math books the other day, complained I hadn't
taught her long division, and wondered if dad could teach her...
Nancy
--
The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what
they become by it.
- John Ruskin
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/2004 9:17:48 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Maybe that's because in my own thoughts the fear and potential ensuing
craziness came up
~~~
I bet those things didn't come up for Kirby. He probably took it more "in
the now"...especially since he said don't call again at 1:30 a.m. I wouldn't
have said that under those circumstances, because I get how serious those
kinds of phone calls can be. It sounded to me like Kirby knew the limits of
what he was willing to do for the kid, based on his own experience. He offered
the advice he had. You added your experience, overcoming those justified
fears of craziness for the best outcome for the kid who wasn't even yours, and
Kirby changed his mind.
I suppose what happened didn't really spill over into your lives too much,
and the cops weren't upset that the boy was leaving his house, and Kirby
probably went over there and was calm with the police and didn't say anything
stupid. The boy learned something from that. I'll bet Kirby did, too. I think
at his age a little contrast in his life doesn't hurt. ;)
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
Maybe that's because in my own thoughts the fear and potential ensuing
craziness came up
~~~
I bet those things didn't come up for Kirby. He probably took it more "in
the now"...especially since he said don't call again at 1:30 a.m. I wouldn't
have said that under those circumstances, because I get how serious those
kinds of phone calls can be. It sounded to me like Kirby knew the limits of
what he was willing to do for the kid, based on his own experience. He offered
the advice he had. You added your experience, overcoming those justified
fears of craziness for the best outcome for the kid who wasn't even yours, and
Kirby changed his mind.
I suppose what happened didn't really spill over into your lives too much,
and the cops weren't upset that the boy was leaving his house, and Kirby
probably went over there and was calm with the police and didn't say anything
stupid. The boy learned something from that. I'll bet Kirby did, too. I think
at his age a little contrast in his life doesn't hurt. ;)
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/04 10:28:41 AM, ikonstitcher@... writes:
<< I had a really close brush with death a week ago; maybe that's why my 17
y.o. dd dragged out the old math books the other day, complained I hadn't
taught her long division, and wondered if dad could teach her...
Glad you lived.
Can you imagine her breaking down at your funeral and announcing to everyone
you ever knew, "SHE NEVER TAUGHT ME DIVISION!!"
So let's all live long enough that our kids can say nice stuff about us when
we die.
(And not so long that they say "Finally!" I'm hoping to live just long
enough. <g>)
(And also glad you lived because of other reasons, the least of which for you
but the greatest of which for me is that I've enjoyed your writing for years.)
Sandra
<< I had a really close brush with death a week ago; maybe that's why my 17
y.o. dd dragged out the old math books the other day, complained I hadn't
taught her long division, and wondered if dad could teach her...
>>DAMN.
Glad you lived.
Can you imagine her breaking down at your funeral and announcing to everyone
you ever knew, "SHE NEVER TAUGHT ME DIVISION!!"
So let's all live long enough that our kids can say nice stuff about us when
we die.
(And not so long that they say "Finally!" I'm hoping to live just long
enough. <g>)
(And also glad you lived because of other reasons, the least of which for you
but the greatest of which for me is that I've enjoyed your writing for years.)
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/2004 9:36:10 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
When it can come up casually (like this time of year, when benefits-package
options are being finalized where Keith works), I remind him that life
insurance on me could help him stay home with the kids if I died.
~~~
Term life insurance is so cheap to get on a stay-at-home spouse, I think
everyone should have some. Enough to cover at least a few years in case the
family has to adjust to the SAH parent being gone. It goes without saying that
the wage-earner should have life insurance.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
When it can come up casually (like this time of year, when benefits-package
options are being finalized where Keith works), I remind him that life
insurance on me could help him stay home with the kids if I died.
~~~
Term life insurance is so cheap to get on a stay-at-home spouse, I think
everyone should have some. Enough to cover at least a few years in case the
family has to adjust to the SAH parent being gone. It goes without saying that
the wage-earner should have life insurance.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/2004 10:57:14 AM Mountain Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
It goes without saying that
the wage-earner should have life insurance.
-------------
I wanted Keith to crank his up too, but he said he felt uncomfortable
thinking he was worth more dead than alive. So I pressed for mortgage insurance so
I'd never be stuck widowed with $1100 a month payments (we used to pay $300 at
the old, little house). Yeeks! (I don't think he bought any, but that's
okay, really. I spooked him with too much death talk all at once, I think.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
It goes without saying that
the wage-earner should have life insurance.
-------------
I wanted Keith to crank his up too, but he said he felt uncomfortable
thinking he was worth more dead than alive. So I pressed for mortgage insurance so
I'd never be stuck widowed with $1100 a month payments (we used to pay $300 at
the old, little house). Yeeks! (I don't think he bought any, but that's
okay, really. I spooked him with too much death talk all at once, I think.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Not wishing ill on anyone's spouse, but there are plenty of single
parents out there unschooling... you do what you have to do.
Dar
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:54:07 EST Genant2@... writes:
parents out there unschooling... you do what you have to do.
Dar
On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:54:07 EST Genant2@... writes:
>
> In a message dated 11/8/2004 10:36:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> SandraDodd@... writes:
>
> I remind him that life
> insurance on me could help him stay home with the kids if I
> died.<<<<
>
> We have planned that way as well and I have life insurance on me so
> that if
> something were to happen to me, he could stay home with the boys.
>
> Pam G
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything.
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>
Laura Moseley
I think that I don't have calm because I need to
be what I think everyone thinks I should be. I
am glad we are having this discussion. I need to
find out who I am and get back to that. If I
can't be me, what will my ds end up to be.
Laura M.
be what I think everyone thinks I should be. I
am glad we are having this discussion. I need to
find out who I am and get back to that. If I
can't be me, what will my ds end up to be.
Laura M.
Angela S
* I think that I don't have calm because I need to
be what I think everyone thinks I should be.
* ------------------------------
I think a lot of people today worry too much about what other people think.
I think it's important to feel like you can be your authentic self. For me,
it means surrounding myself with people who support me and staying away from
people who don't. It's much easier to be yourself when you don't have
people around you who want to try to change you or who criticize what you
believe. I don't have a high need to be with other people and neither do my
kids. That makes it easier for us in that regard because we don't feel like
we need to find a lot of people who believe in us, just a few. Having just
a few very close friends works well for us.
It can be uncomfortable making those changes and carving people out of your
life when they don't support you, but in the long run, it makes life easier
and more peaceful. You need to make the life that you want. It won't just
plop down into your lap without some forethought and planning. Think
positive. Be proactive. You can do it!
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be what I think everyone thinks I should be.
* ------------------------------
I think a lot of people today worry too much about what other people think.
I think it's important to feel like you can be your authentic self. For me,
it means surrounding myself with people who support me and staying away from
people who don't. It's much easier to be yourself when you don't have
people around you who want to try to change you or who criticize what you
believe. I don't have a high need to be with other people and neither do my
kids. That makes it easier for us in that regard because we don't feel like
we need to find a lot of people who believe in us, just a few. Having just
a few very close friends works well for us.
It can be uncomfortable making those changes and carving people out of your
life when they don't support you, but in the long run, it makes life easier
and more peaceful. You need to make the life that you want. It won't just
plop down into your lap without some forethought and planning. Think
positive. Be proactive. You can do it!
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
I think a lot of people today worry too much about what other people think.
I think it's important to feel like you can be your authentic self. For me,
it means surrounding myself with people who support me and staying away from
people who don't.**
That's a good start, but hypothetically, isn't there a level of being authentic that enables one to be authentic even in the presence of people who don't validate oneself?
Betsy
I think a lot of people today worry too much about what other people think.
I think it's important to feel like you can be your authentic self. For me,
it means surrounding myself with people who support me and staying away from
people who don't.**
That's a good start, but hypothetically, isn't there a level of being authentic that enables one to be authentic even in the presence of people who don't validate oneself?
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/2004 7:04:13 PM Mountain Standard Time,
lsam400803@... writes:
I think that I don't have calm because I need to
be what I think everyone thinks I should be.
-========================================
Does it feel like your need?
Or do you think others"need you to be" something?
Maybe examining that word "need" will help you get away from that feeling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lsam400803@... writes:
I think that I don't have calm because I need to
be what I think everyone thinks I should be.
-========================================
Does it feel like your need?
Or do you think others"need you to be" something?
Maybe examining that word "need" will help you get away from that feeling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
We've had a visitor stay with us for the last four days, a business partner
of my dh's. Dan is an "intellectual", has a phd in chemistry. I was tucked
away in my office when he walked in the front door this afternoon, looked at
my 14 yo who was sitting close to the TV watching a skate video and the man
said to my son (not knowing I was within earshot), "Unschooling, an
interesting experiment".
It was all I could do not to lunge at him, but what I did was breathe deep,
walk out to where he was, and say, "Schooling, an interesting experiment."
He was certainly surprised, thinking he was just giving his snide remark to
a kid who was obviously wasting his life away with his parents' permission.
We then engaged in a rather passionate discussion about schooling,
unschooling, learning through living, education, how it works, etc.
Why this came up for me with your comments Laura was because a huge part of
my discomfort had to do with my reactive caring of what Dan thought. He was
the living breathing person that represented all of those living breathing
people that would judge our life choices, and he was in my house and
speaking negatively to my son! Our passionate discussion was primarily
because I SO wanted to show him the truth and get him to change his thinking
(didn't happen in the moment, but maybe in a few years?? He has no children
of his own). It reminded me of Evangelical Christians who have so
passionately wanted me to see their truth. At least by the end, Dan saw that
my son was watching a skate video that he purchased with his own money (as
opposed to "spacing out" in front of the TV...not that there's anything
wrong with that :0)), and that he would most likely sometime in the day try
some of the moves on the video. One of Dan's comments, "It seems that a
child at some point has to realize that they have to leave mommy and daddy's
home and make it on their own". My comment, "What about what we are doing
would make you think my children wouldn't figure that out? And what makes
you think I ever want my children to leave my home?"
So anyway, I ask myself, "Why did this bother me so much? Why didn't I
handle this with as much patience and grace as I might handle a child who
was learning something for the first time? Where was my 'calm'"
Jacki, going to bed before the answers are clear to her
I think that I don't have calm because I need to
be what I think everyone thinks I should be. I
am glad we are having this discussion. I need to
find out who I am and get back to that. If I
can't be me, what will my ds end up to be.
Laura M.
of my dh's. Dan is an "intellectual", has a phd in chemistry. I was tucked
away in my office when he walked in the front door this afternoon, looked at
my 14 yo who was sitting close to the TV watching a skate video and the man
said to my son (not knowing I was within earshot), "Unschooling, an
interesting experiment".
It was all I could do not to lunge at him, but what I did was breathe deep,
walk out to where he was, and say, "Schooling, an interesting experiment."
He was certainly surprised, thinking he was just giving his snide remark to
a kid who was obviously wasting his life away with his parents' permission.
We then engaged in a rather passionate discussion about schooling,
unschooling, learning through living, education, how it works, etc.
Why this came up for me with your comments Laura was because a huge part of
my discomfort had to do with my reactive caring of what Dan thought. He was
the living breathing person that represented all of those living breathing
people that would judge our life choices, and he was in my house and
speaking negatively to my son! Our passionate discussion was primarily
because I SO wanted to show him the truth and get him to change his thinking
(didn't happen in the moment, but maybe in a few years?? He has no children
of his own). It reminded me of Evangelical Christians who have so
passionately wanted me to see their truth. At least by the end, Dan saw that
my son was watching a skate video that he purchased with his own money (as
opposed to "spacing out" in front of the TV...not that there's anything
wrong with that :0)), and that he would most likely sometime in the day try
some of the moves on the video. One of Dan's comments, "It seems that a
child at some point has to realize that they have to leave mommy and daddy's
home and make it on their own". My comment, "What about what we are doing
would make you think my children wouldn't figure that out? And what makes
you think I ever want my children to leave my home?"
So anyway, I ask myself, "Why did this bother me so much? Why didn't I
handle this with as much patience and grace as I might handle a child who
was learning something for the first time? Where was my 'calm'"
Jacki, going to bed before the answers are clear to her
I think that I don't have calm because I need to
be what I think everyone thinks I should be. I
am glad we are having this discussion. I need to
find out who I am and get back to that. If I
can't be me, what will my ds end up to be.
Laura M.
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/04 11:21:20 PM, jacki@... writes:
<< One of Dan's comments, "It seems that a
child at some point has to realize that they have to leave mommy and daddy's
home and make it on their own". >>
What a dipwad.
And what are the odds if he'd walked into a home where the kid were in
school, if one was home he would have been watching TV, or a video, or playing a
game? But he wouldn't have insulted that kid and his parents.
-=-So anyway, I ask myself, "Why did this bother me so much? Why didn't I
handle this with as much patience and grace as I might handle a child who
was learning something for the first time? Where was my 'calm'"-=-
I'm guessing maybe because he treated your son "like a kid"
(disrespectfully), in the process insulting you and your husband (unintentionally), that he was
being sneaky (thinking he was unheard by you), and that it was just not the
best thing he could have said.
Sandra
<< One of Dan's comments, "It seems that a
child at some point has to realize that they have to leave mommy and daddy's
home and make it on their own". >>
What a dipwad.
And what are the odds if he'd walked into a home where the kid were in
school, if one was home he would have been watching TV, or a video, or playing a
game? But he wouldn't have insulted that kid and his parents.
-=-So anyway, I ask myself, "Why did this bother me so much? Why didn't I
handle this with as much patience and grace as I might handle a child who
was learning something for the first time? Where was my 'calm'"-=-
I'm guessing maybe because he treated your son "like a kid"
(disrespectfully), in the process insulting you and your husband (unintentionally), that he was
being sneaky (thinking he was unheard by you), and that it was just not the
best thing he could have said.
Sandra
Angela S
I think it's important to be your authentic self all the time, but it's
easier when you feel supported and not ridiculed, especially if you are at
that stage when you are still trying to find out what you really
believe/think. I don't look for friends to be exactly like me, but I do
look for friends who are open minded enough to allow for differences and not
try to pressure you to be like them or agree with them on all counts. For
me, life is too short to surround myself with people who want to change me
or try to convince me that their thinking is the right thinking. I don't
enjoy conflict and so life is more peaceful for me if I am around people who
can accept me for who I am. I am not fake at all but I often keep my
thoughts and feelings to myself if I know that by sharing them I will be
opening myself up to criticism or a debate of my way of life. I enjoy a
good debate once in a while but I don't thrive on them.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
--------------------------------------
That's a good start, but hypothetically, isn't there a level of being
authentic that enables one to be authentic even in the presence of people
who don't validate oneself?
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
easier when you feel supported and not ridiculed, especially if you are at
that stage when you are still trying to find out what you really
believe/think. I don't look for friends to be exactly like me, but I do
look for friends who are open minded enough to allow for differences and not
try to pressure you to be like them or agree with them on all counts. For
me, life is too short to surround myself with people who want to change me
or try to convince me that their thinking is the right thinking. I don't
enjoy conflict and so life is more peaceful for me if I am around people who
can accept me for who I am. I am not fake at all but I often keep my
thoughts and feelings to myself if I know that by sharing them I will be
opening myself up to criticism or a debate of my way of life. I enjoy a
good debate once in a while but I don't thrive on them.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
--------------------------------------
That's a good start, but hypothetically, isn't there a level of being
authentic that enables one to be authentic even in the presence of people
who don't validate oneself?
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela S
This thread reminded me of a Christmas party the girls and I went to last
year. The adults were all downstairs talking and the kids were all upstairs
playing. This was an open house and I knew the hostess pretty well but
hadn't seen her for a long time. (About a year and that's a long time for a
7 and 9 yo) I knew a couple other people there, but my kids didn't know
anyone else but the hostess' kids, whom they aren't comfortable with
anyways.
My kids stayed with me downstairs. Several people commented to *me* in
front of my girls as to why they weren't upstairs with all the other kids.
With each comment the kids drew closer to me. It feels very uncomfortable
to them to be talked about like they weren't even there. They aren't used
to being treated so disrespectfully. It was odd to everyone that my kids
wanted to be with me and not with all the other kids, even though they
didn't know them well. I tried to ignore it. I tried to explain. After
several more comments, I started to feel uncomfortable about it too. It was
obvious to me that they thought my kids were different because they chose to
be with me and not the other kids. That didn't make me want to send my kids
away from me or treat them with any less respect, but I certainly felt like
I was being criticized in a subtle way. We stayed about a total of 30
minutes. Long enough to be polite but not too long. I wasn't any less
authentic. I just didn't chose to spend more of my precious time in an
unsupportive atmosphere.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
year. The adults were all downstairs talking and the kids were all upstairs
playing. This was an open house and I knew the hostess pretty well but
hadn't seen her for a long time. (About a year and that's a long time for a
7 and 9 yo) I knew a couple other people there, but my kids didn't know
anyone else but the hostess' kids, whom they aren't comfortable with
anyways.
My kids stayed with me downstairs. Several people commented to *me* in
front of my girls as to why they weren't upstairs with all the other kids.
With each comment the kids drew closer to me. It feels very uncomfortable
to them to be talked about like they weren't even there. They aren't used
to being treated so disrespectfully. It was odd to everyone that my kids
wanted to be with me and not with all the other kids, even though they
didn't know them well. I tried to ignore it. I tried to explain. After
several more comments, I started to feel uncomfortable about it too. It was
obvious to me that they thought my kids were different because they chose to
be with me and not the other kids. That didn't make me want to send my kids
away from me or treat them with any less respect, but I certainly felt like
I was being criticized in a subtle way. We stayed about a total of 30
minutes. Long enough to be polite but not too long. I wasn't any less
authentic. I just didn't chose to spend more of my precious time in an
unsupportive atmosphere.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
In a message dated 11/8/04 11:21:20 PM, jacki@... writes:
<< One of Dan's comments, "It seems that a
child at some point has to realize that they have to leave mommy and daddy's
home and make it on their own". >>
Sandra said:
week and see HIM watching TV. He is self-employed and does what he wants
everyday. Not sure why it's supposed to be different for kids...the dipwad
:)
-=-So anyway, I ask myself, "Why did this bother me so much? Why didn't I
handle this with as much patience and grace as I might handle a child who
was learning something for the first time? Where was my 'calm'"-=-
Thanks,
Jacki
<< One of Dan's comments, "It seems that a
child at some point has to realize that they have to leave mommy and daddy's
home and make it on their own". >>
Sandra said:
>>What a dipwad.Tell me about it.
>>And what are the odds if he'd walked into a home where the kid were inplaying a
>>school, if one was home he would have been watching TV, or a video, or
>>game? But he wouldn't have insulted that kid and his parents.In fact, what are the odds that we would walk into HIS house any day of the
week and see HIM watching TV. He is self-employed and does what he wants
everyday. Not sure why it's supposed to be different for kids...the dipwad
:)
-=-So anyway, I ask myself, "Why did this bother me so much? Why didn't I
handle this with as much patience and grace as I might handle a child who
was learning something for the first time? Where was my 'calm'"-=-
>>I'm guessing maybe because he treated your son "like a kid"(unintentionally), that he was
>>(disrespectfully), in the process insulting you and your husband
>>being sneaky (thinking he was unheard by you), and that it was just notthe
>>best thing he could have said.Yeah.
Thanks,
Jacki
pam sorooshian
Angela - I'm really enjoying reading your comments on other people and
being selective and careful about how you choose to spend your energy
and time. This is something I hadn't really learned how to do for
myself and it has cost me. I'm 52 and just seeing the light in this
area! Thanks.
-pam
being selective and careful about how you choose to spend your energy
and time. This is something I hadn't really learned how to do for
myself and it has cost me. I'm 52 and just seeing the light in this
area! Thanks.
-pam
On Nov 9, 2004, at 11:33 AM, Angela S wrote:
> Long enough to be polite but not too long. I wasn't any less
> authentic. I just didn't chose to spend more of my precious time in an
> unsupportive atmosphere.
>