Virginia

Hi everyone,

My name is Virginia and I pulled my daughter out of PS right at a
year ago. Shortly after doing so I was introduced to un-schooling and
immediately became intrigued with it. I started to get involved with
a group of unschoolers and have been exploring it every since and
have taken alot of it to heart. We've been having all the ups and
downs that are expected btw. Including my child appearing that she is
learning nothing, and doing nothing. Which sometimes I myself wonder
about.

However, my husband is really making a hard case why he is against
unschooling and this has been causing problems for us. We've actually
been having some heated arguments on the subject. I have doubts from
time to time just like everyone else, but I'm not ready to give up on
unschooling just yet and I'm getting upset with my husband because he
won't be more open minded about it. I've been all over the place
trying to find information for my husband because he wants facts
about unschooling, not anecdotes.

He won't join any groups for unschool dads because he doesn't want to
belong to message boards where there is a biased slant. I'm very
frustrated that he won't at least get on one and start asking
questions. He is getting advice from people who have never re-
searched unschooling so I think they are very biased too and are not
going to always give the best advice or information.

For instance he has spoken with one of his best teachers about it.
This educator has 25 years experience and Russell has high respect
for him as an educator. This man told Russell that unschooling was a
grave mistake. So you can imagine what I've been going through every
since with my husband.

So, that's why I'm here. I need advice, support, and anything you
people can give me to help me stay strong and to help me come up with
convincing arguments. For example: My husand says he was forced to
learn and he turned out great. Well he did turn out great. He got a
good education, and makes a lot of money, and is a happy man. So when
I say he just got lucky, that doesn't fly at all because obviously
there are many successful happy productive people in our world who
had a traditional education with all that entails.

I hope it's ok that I've posted here and apologize if I'm posting
totally inappropriate stuff on this message board. Thanks in advance
for all your help.

Sincerely,
Virginia

Barbara Chase

>For example: My husand says he was forced to
>learn and he turned out great. Well he did turn out great. He got a
>good education, and makes a lot of money, and is a happy man.

I don't know if this will help you or not, but my husband loved school and
at first didn't see why I would want something different for our daughter.
He was never adamantly opposed to my unschooling ideas, and at the time our
daughter was just a baby -- so the decision was really a long way off. But
then I read John Holt's "How Children Fail", and when I started to read
section after section after section to my husband, telling him how this was
exactly what school had been like for me he started to see a different
perspective. He never remembered feeling the way I did about school, but
he appreciated Holt's perspective and descriptions about why it doesn't
work, and appreciated that we would follow our daughter's lead.


--bc--

Robyn Coburn

<<<I've been all over the place
trying to find information for my husband because he wants facts
about unschooling, not anecdotes.

He won't join any groups for unschool dads because he doesn't want to
belong to message boards where there is a biased slant.>>>

So he won't go to the people who are doing it for information, just to
people who are hostile to it - which is just another bias.

I just posted on another board that using sources hostile to Unschooling for
your information is like sending someone interested in learning about Wicca
to a conservative fundamentalist Christian for a definition and description
of practices. Chances are the information will be negatively biased.

<<<For example: My husand says he was forced to
learn and he turned out great. Well he did turn out great. He got a
good education, and makes a lot of money, and is a happy man. So when
I say he just got lucky, that doesn't fly at all because obviously
there are many successful happy productive people in our world who
had a traditional education with all that entails.>>>

The vast majority of us had a traditional education. We mostly turned out ok
too. So what? The people who are *not* particularly successful, happy or
productive are also primarily products of the same system!

If it helps: what it seems to me that most Unschoolers are doing is trying
to live in the present, making lives for our children as joyful, successful
(by their individual definitions) and productive (of happiness) in the
present as we can. We are not waiting for them to be adults who have "turned
out" any particular way for their real lives to begin.

I'm going to recommend Valerie Fitzenreiter's book "The Unprocessed Child"
to you. I recommend it to *you* because Valerie lived a remarkable
Unschooling life with her dd, Laurie, and a hostile-to-it dh. I would
recommend it to your dh because Laurie's academic success is just what a
pragmatic man is likely to want to hear about. *sigh*.

You don't say how old your dd is. Sometimes the publications recommended
alter depending on the child's age.

Robyn L. Coburn

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J. Stauffer

<<<<I've been all over the place
> trying to find information for my husband because he wants facts
> about unschooling, not anecdotes.
>
> He won't join any groups for unschool dads>>>>>

Your dh is right where my dh was 6 years ago. Relax, it will be fine. He
is just very concerned about his daughter which is a good thing.

You said that it looks like your daughter isn't learning anything....and it
can look like that to people that aren't in the frame of unschooling yet.
So you can just imagine what it looks like to your dh.

I would suggest offering your child some outings, activities, projects. See
what strikes her fancy. Would she like to build a playhouse? Would she
like to go to the zoo? Would she like to grow herbs? Sew a dress? Just
ask her and see what interests her. Then get out and do it.

Sit down, without your daughter, and take a long hard look at what skills
and learning is happening in that project. Don't talk to your daughter
about it. Talk to your dh. Let him see there is learning outside of books.

If he continues to be adamant, buy a curriculum. Talk to your daughter
about how Dad is "old fashioned" and wants to do workbooks with her and
perhaps we could just placate him a bit. Then hand complete responsibility
for the curriculum over to Dad. It won't take long for him to see how
ridiculous they can be. He will get bored, she will get bored, he will skip
the occassional night and then let it fall to the wayside would be my bet.

From my experience, a lot of men want to tell women how to educate their
children but they have never done it in the form they are requesting....they
don't really know what they are talking about. It is one thing to be the
one in school doing a workbook, it is quite another to fuss with your child
who you love everyday and take responsibility for their doing it.

Julie S.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Virginia" <virginia@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 9:56 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] I'm new here and could use some help


>
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> My name is Virginia and I pulled my daughter out of PS right at a
> year ago. Shortly after doing so I was introduced to un-schooling and
> immediately became intrigued with it. I started to get involved with
> a group of unschoolers and have been exploring it every since and
> have taken alot of it to heart. We've been having all the ups and
> downs that are expected btw. Including my child appearing that she is
> learning nothing, and doing nothing. Which sometimes I myself wonder
> about.
>
> However, my husband is really making a hard case why he is against
> unschooling and this has been causing problems for us. We've actually
> been having some heated arguments on the subject. I have doubts from
> time to time just like everyone else, but I'm not ready to give up on
> unschooling just yet and I'm getting upset with my husband because he
> won't be more open minded about it. I've been all over the place
> trying to find information for my husband because he wants facts
> about unschooling, not anecdotes.
>
> He won't join any groups for unschool dads because he doesn't want to
> belong to message boards where there is a biased slant. I'm very
> frustrated that he won't at least get on one and start asking
> questions. He is getting advice from people who have never re-
> searched unschooling so I think they are very biased too and are not
> going to always give the best advice or information.
>
> For instance he has spoken with one of his best teachers about it.
> This educator has 25 years experience and Russell has high respect
> for him as an educator. This man told Russell that unschooling was a
> grave mistake. So you can imagine what I've been going through every
> since with my husband.
>
> So, that's why I'm here. I need advice, support, and anything you
> people can give me to help me stay strong and to help me come up with
> convincing arguments. For example: My husand says he was forced to
> learn and he turned out great. Well he did turn out great. He got a
> good education, and makes a lot of money, and is a happy man. So when
> I say he just got lucky, that doesn't fly at all because obviously
> there are many successful happy productive people in our world who
> had a traditional education with all that entails.
>
> I hope it's ok that I've posted here and apologize if I'm posting
> totally inappropriate stuff on this message board. Thanks in advance
> for all your help.
>
> Sincerely,
> Virginia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

julie w

> For example: My husand says he was forced to
>learn and he turned out great. Well he did turn out great. He got a
>good education, and makes a lot of money, and is a happy man. So when
>I say he just got lucky, that doesn't fly at all because obviously
>there are many successful happy productive people in our world who
>had a traditional education with all that entails.
>
But there are just as many folks with a traditional education who are
not sucessful, not happy, and some are even in our prison systems now.
Just because it works for one does not mean it will work for all. BTW,
what does your dh do for a living?

Julie W in AR

Elizabeth Hill

**For example: My husand says he was forced to learn and he turned out
great.**

I'd like to ask whether he retained what he learned. For example, if he
studied a foreign language in high school, can he speak it? Remember
more than 20 words of it? (Most people seem to lose more than 90% of
the language they learned in school, so the "learning" seems very
impermanent. Can he solve trigonometry problems? (That's dropped right
out of MY memory, and I got an "A".) Can he describe the events leading
up to the Constitutional convention? The major battles of the Civil War?

My contention is that even "A" students who study and do all of the
homework fail to remember the content of the courses before much time
has passed. If your husband has an exceptional memory, this may not be
true of him.

Betsy

April M

It astounds me how much I have forgotten...or didn't even learn! I earned a
3.5 gpa in highschool, just enough to get into National Honor Society and no
more (I can't even remember now why I wanted in...probably a friend was
joining). I could have done better, but I didn't see any reason to expend
the energy, I didn't have anything to gain by getting better grades. I
didn't like studying, but knew how to play the game. I was a good student.
I went to 3 years of college...loved parts of it...a few classes, but mostly
the social aspect, clubs and organizations. I quit after running out of
money, I didn't like it enough to find other ways of funding it. I have
learned more since quitting college...much of what I'm sure I received great
grades for....I knew little of history (I could recite a few dates but had
no context for most of it), only enough math to do what I needed, I was
exposed to very little good literature, I couldn't diagram a sentence if my
life depended on it (I probably still can't)...I knew lots of science though
because that was what I loved. And I took college prep classes! As my kids
have explored their interests (ranging from drama, Shakespeare, maps, Civil
War, reptiles....to name a few) I'm amazed at what I don't know!!!! So I
learn right along with my kids. And in spite of what I didn't know, I am a
successful adult, I am on the board of a number of local community
organizations, I can carry on an intelligent conversation....

~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-9.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to it." ~~ Dennis P.
Kimbro








-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Hill [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I'm new here and could use some help




**For example: My husand says he was forced to learn and he turned out
great.**

I'd like to ask whether he retained what he learned. For example, if he
studied a foreign language in high school, can he speak it? Remember
more than 20 words of it? (Most people seem to lose more than 90% of
the language they learned in school, so the "learning" seems very
impermanent. Can he solve trigonometry problems? (That's dropped right
out of MY memory, and I got an "A".) Can he describe the events leading
up to the Constitutional convention? The major battles of the Civil War?

My contention is that even "A" students who study and do all of the
homework fail to remember the content of the courses before much time
has passed. If your husband has an exceptional memory, this may not be
true of him.

Betsy




Yahoo! Groups Links

Nancy Wooton

on 10/14/04 6:58 AM, Elizabeth Hill at ecsamhill@... wrote:

>
>
> **For example: My husand says he was forced to learn and he turned out
> great.**
>
> I'd like to ask whether he retained what he learned. For example, if he
> studied a foreign language in high school, can he speak it? Remember
> more than 20 words of it? (Most people seem to lose more than 90% of
> the language they learned in school, so the "learning" seems very
> impermanent. Can he solve trigonometry problems? (That's dropped right
> out of MY memory, and I got an "A".) Can he describe the events leading
> up to the Constitutional convention? The major battles of the Civil War?
>
> My contention is that even "A" students who study and do all of the
> homework fail to remember the content of the courses before much time
> has passed. If your husband has an exceptional memory, this may not be
> true of him.

Suggest he read "The Book of Learning and Forgetting," by Frank Smith.

Nancy

--
Children enter school as question marks and leave as periods.
-Neil Postman, professor and author (1931- )

Elizabeth Hill

**

Suggest he read "The Book of Learning and Forgetting," by Frank Smith.**

I agree with Nancy that this is a great book. It's the scientific basis of a lot of my anti-school opinions. And it's pretty short, 102 pages, which is an advantage if you try to get a spouse or other relative to read it.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/14/04 9:13:09 AM, ikonstitcher@... writes:

<<
Suggest he read "The Book of Learning and Forgetting," by Frank Smith.
>>

OH! Great suggestion.

Frank Smith isn't a homeschooler at all, he's a professor of something
(cognition? psychology of education? not sure). He has a couple of books on
reading, too that would be probably excellent to put into the hands of your husband.

Frank Smith has two things men prize highly: a penis and a PhD.
And he couldn't possibly tell any unschooling anecdotes.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/14/04 7:03:58 AM, jnjstau@... writes:

<< From my experience, a lot of men want to tell women how to educate their

children but they have never done it in the form they are requesting....they

don't really know what they are talking about. It is one thing to be the

one in school doing a workbook, it is quite another to fuss with your child

who you love everyday and take responsibility for their doing it. >>

This should be carved on a big block of marble at the crossroads where all
the unschooling dads pass by at the end of every long day. <g>

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/14/04 7:58:35 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< My contention is that even "A" students who study and do all of the
homework fail to remember the content of the courses before much time
has passed. If your husband has an exceptional memory, this may not be
true of him. >>

I was a good student. I remember what was so fascinating to me that I was
asking more questions until the teacher made one of the fateful statements:
-you don't need to know that
-it won't be on the test
-they'll cover that next year

Nothing like the withholding of information to get me more interested. <g>

Sandra

Eric Donato

[snickering]
On Oct 14, 2004, at 10:55 AM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> Frank Smith has two things men prize highly:  a penis and a PhD.

Virginia Glasser

Hi Nancy,

Yep he is the exception to the rule alright. That's why it's so hard to
convince him that unschooling is a terrific option.

Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!




-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy Wooton [mailto:ikonstitcher@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 10:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I'm new here and could use some help


on 10/14/04 6:58 AM, Elizabeth Hill at ecsamhill@... wrote:

>
>
> **For example: My husand says he was forced to learn and he turned out
> great.**
>
> I'd like to ask whether he retained what he learned. For example, if he
> studied a foreign language in high school, can he speak it? Remember
> more than 20 words of it? (Most people seem to lose more than 90% of
> the language they learned in school, so the "learning" seems very
> impermanent. Can he solve trigonometry problems? (That's dropped right
> out of MY memory, and I got an "A".) Can he describe the events leading
> up to the Constitutional convention? The major battles of the Civil
War?
>
> My contention is that even "A" students who study and do all of the
> homework fail to remember the content of the courses before much time
> has passed. If your husband has an exceptional memory, this may not be
> true of him.

Suggest he read "The Book of Learning and Forgetting," by Frank Smith.

Nancy

--
Children enter school as question marks and leave as periods.
-Neil Postman, professor and author (1931- )



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Virginia Glasser

He will only read one book. So which one is the best one he should read. I
feel pretty lucky getting him to do that much. But it's because I agreed to
read a book of his choice...which is "Innumeracy".

Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!




-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 12:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I'm new here and could use some help



In a message dated 10/14/04 9:13:09 AM, ikonstitcher@... writes:

<<
Suggest he read "The Book of Learning and Forgetting," by Frank Smith.
>>

OH! Great suggestion.

Frank Smith isn't a homeschooler at all, he's a professor of something
(cognition? psychology of education? not sure). He has a couple of books
on
reading, too that would be probably excellent to put into the hands of
your husband.

Frank Smith has two things men prize highly: a penis and a PhD.
And he couldn't possibly tell any unschooling anecdotes.

Sandra

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

alexandriapalonia

I loved Innumeracy! What did you think of it?

Alex

PS--I would recommend anything by John Holt as the one book. He's
very agreeable, approachable, and--afterall--is the "father" of
Unschooling.
If there's a book you read that gave you the "aha" moment on
unschooling, I'd recommend that (even without knowing which book it
was) from the standpoint that it probably best expresses *your* view
of unschooling.

> He will only read one book. So which one is the best one he should
read. I> feel pretty lucky getting him to do that much. But it's
because I agreed to> read a book of his choice...which is "Innumeracy".
>
> Virginia Glasser

Barbara Chase

> > My contention is that even "A" students who study and do all of the
> > homework fail to remember the content of the courses before much time
> > has passed. If your husband has an exceptional memory, this may not be
> > true of him.
>
>Hi Nancy,
>
>Yep he is the exception to the rule alright. That's why it's so hard to
>convince him that unschooling is a terrific option.

My husband is the exception as well. Not only did he love school, do well
with the grades, loved taking tests (he would sign up for them just for
fun), but he also remembers most of what he learned.

But have faith... he was willing to hear what it was like for me in school
and to consider that not everyone learns like he does.

He also knows he could have learned just as well without school and
teachers, and often teaches himself whatever he's interesetd in, so I don't
think he really had the idea that school was the magic deal. But this
might be one important difference... if your dh feels that he wouldn't have
been able to learn all of the stuff he did without school then it will be a
much harder case.


>He will only read one book. So which one is the best one he should read.

Could you explain what his objections are again? I'd be willing to talk
with my husband about them and see if he has any recommendations.


ciao
--bc--

Virginia Glasser

Russell (my husband) feels that he wouldn't have gotten such a great
education and be where he is today without "schooling" in the more
traditional sense. He does believe in homeschooling btw, just thinks
unschooling is a really big mistake. I can't convince him otherwise because
there is no hard data on unschooling statistic wise. All there is are
anecdotes and my husband does not accept those as evidence of unschooling
being a valid choice.

I guess his biggest objection is the concept of not pushing a child to learn
certain things...and math is his major concern, with science probably being
second. He insists that we have a schedule for Caitlin at the very least 15
minutes three days a week for her to sit down and be taught math. If I
wasn't running interference he would want more than that...say 30 minutes to
an hour every day.

I'm pretty torn about what's best and feeling very confused. I feel like he
needs to be appeased at this point.

Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!




-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Chase [mailto:barb@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] I'm new here and could use some help


> > My contention is that even "A" students who study and do all of the
> > homework fail to remember the content of the courses before much time
> > has passed. If your husband has an exceptional memory, this may not
be
> > true of him.
>
>Hi Nancy,
>
>Yep he is the exception to the rule alright. That's why it's so hard to
>convince him that unschooling is a terrific option.

My husband is the exception as well. Not only did he love school, do well
with the grades, loved taking tests (he would sign up for them just for
fun), but he also remembers most of what he learned.

But have faith... he was willing to hear what it was like for me in school
and to consider that not everyone learns like he does.

He also knows he could have learned just as well without school and
teachers, and often teaches himself whatever he's interesetd in, so I
don't
think he really had the idea that school was the magic deal. But this
might be one important difference... if your dh feels that he wouldn't
have
been able to learn all of the stuff he did without school then it will be
a
much harder case.


>He will only read one book. So which one is the best one he should read.

Could you explain what his objections are again? I'd be willing to talk
with my husband about them and see if he has any recommendations.


ciao
--bc--

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nancy Wooton

on 10/14/04 5:22 PM, Virginia Glasser at virginia@... wrote:


>
>
> He will only read one book. So which one is the best one he should read. I
> feel pretty lucky getting him to do that much. But it's because I agreed to
> read a book of his choice...which is "Innumeracy".
>
>

Are you saying he got all the way through school and can't READ? Or that he
doesn't read well, or doesn't LIKE to read for information?

Until he's willing to do as much research as you do, why should he have a
say in how your kids are educated? He doesn't know enough to make that kind
of important decision. (Okay, don't tell him that. :-)

If he will only read one book, make it "The Book of Learning and
Forgetting." Seriously.

Nancy

Robyn Coburn

<<<He will only read one book.>>>>

Wow, he really doesn't want to be convinced does he?

Would a selection of printed shorter articles be the equivalent of a single
book? If you printed them out and "bound" them at Kinko's???

Robyn L. Coburn

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pam sorooshian

On Oct 14, 2004, at 5:22 PM, Virginia Glasser wrote:

> He will only read one book. So which one is the best one he should
> read. I
> feel pretty lucky getting him to do that much. But it's because I
> agreed to
> read a book of his choice...which is "Innumeracy".

GREAT book. I quote from it extensively in my talks on unschooling and
math.

SO - you might think about this: Almost all kids go through schools,
good and bad ones, and MOST people come out of school only
semi-numerate at best. The vast majority of people come out of school
wanting to avoid math if at all possible. Many of those have some
degree of math anxiety and a sizable minority have severe math phobia!
Is that what your husband wants? To re-create school at home? Why?

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Oct 14, 2004, at 8:26 PM, Virginia Glasser wrote:

> I can't convince him otherwise because
> there is no hard data on unschooling statistic wise. All there is are
> anecdotes and my husband does not accept those as evidence of
> unschooling
> being a valid choice.

I'm a professional statistician. I was on a panel at the American
Educational Research Association Annual Meetings in San Diego, last
April, in which I argued that the best kind of research on
homeschooling was going to be a case study approach. The reason, in a
nutshell, is that the entire point of homeschooling is to individualize
education and unschooling is the most idiosyncratic form of
homeschooling. Statistical methods are designed to generalize from
sample data - but that requires the assumption that the sample families
have commonalities that we can discover. Statistical analysis is the
discovery of those commonalities. When we have a population
(unschoolers) which is defined by its diversity, the most effective way
to "study" them, is to look at individuals, lots of them and get a
sense of the variety of methods and outcomes possible.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

pam sorooshian

On Oct 14, 2004, at 8:26 PM, Virginia Glasser wrote:

>
> I'm pretty torn about what's best and feeling very confused. I feel
> like he
> needs to be appeased at this point.

It won't kill her. If that is ALL it takes to keep him happy, gosh, I'd
find some great math resources and have a blast. Math Calendar? Math
for Smarty Pants? The I Hate Mathematics Book? Or, sheesh, just play
cards? Play games? Look at my blog for some simple math games:
<http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/iblog/math/index.html>

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

Eric Donato

Hi,

I have a husband who needs hard evidence to get his attention, and I
have become VERY CREATIVE and determined to let my kids [all boys 8
3/4, 6, 3 1/2 yrs] do what they can when they can, and most importantly
to me: because it is relevant in their lives!!!

we have many minutes of math and science [and everything else] most
days, maybe we have hours each day and no minutes other days... for
example, when we shop in the store, I ask the kids to read labels and
prices, compare sizes/ quantity with unit prices, multiply, divide,
add, subtract, you can use math for hours in a store... if we aren't
sure of the price or label, we scan the barcode to check...

at times we go further, I will ask my eldest to look up a recipe in the
cookbook, check the ingredients in our house, write a list of
ingredients to buy, ask him to find the list items at the store, then
he pays the cashier... he helps with the recipe, he loves the whole
process! remember this is not everyday, it is weekly at best, but the
tasks can be spread over days...

we are enjoying an explosively good year, after many false starts, a
lot of doubt and fear coming from both myself and my husband for 2-3
years, we just seemed to "get it"... we made enough mistakes that I
knew when things needed to be adjusted from the feeling I had, my
husband had no such instinct so I had to trust myself and learn to
self-validate... I learned how to state my ideas firmly and stay on
track, many habits I would have needed in school I learned 10 years
after my last classroom experience [sadly I felt I could get by with
minimal effort and had absolutely no regard to context and
relevance]...

I say don't give up because your husband doesn't agree with you...
maybe you too have something to learn in this endeavor... MUST your
husband agree in order to TRY unschooling? I had a *great* education,
I learned a lot, I was in the top margin of everything all my life, but
I LOVE unschooling MORE than anything I ever got from school... my
proudest moments in life came with very little recognition, and my
greatest education is learning with my own direction...

Jules.
On Oct 14, 2004, at 8:26 PM, Virginia Glasser wrote:

>
> Russell (my husband) feels that he wouldn't have gotten such a great
> education and be where he is today without "schooling" in the more
> traditional sense. He does believe in homeschooling btw, just thinks
> unschooling is a really big mistake. I can't convince him otherwise
> because
> there is no hard data on unschooling statistic wise. All there is are
> anecdotes and my husband does not accept those as evidence of
> unschooling
> being a valid choice.
>
> I guess his biggest objection is the concept of not pushing a child
> to learn
> certain things...and math is his major concern, with science probably
> being
> second. He insists that we have a schedule for Caitlin at the very
> least 15
> minutes three days a week for her to sit down and be taught math. If I
> wasn't running interference he would want more than that...say 30
> minutes to
> an hour every day.
>
> I'm pretty torn about what's best and feeling very confused. I feel
> like he
> needs to be appeased at this point.
>
> Virginia Glasser
> StampinUp! Demonstrator
> http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
> I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
> Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
>
>
>
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Barbara Chase [mailto:barb@...]
>   Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:52 PM
>   To: [email protected]
>   Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] I'm new here and could use some help
>
>
>   >  > My contention is that even "A" students who study and do all
> of the
>   >  > homework fail to remember the content of the courses before
> much time
>   >  > has passed.  If your husband has an exceptional memory, this
> may not
> be
>   >  > true of him.
>   >
>   >Hi Nancy,
>   >
>   >Yep he is the exception to the rule alright. That's why it's so
> hard to
>   >convince him that unschooling is a terrific option.
>
>   My husband is the exception as well.  Not only did he love school,
> do well
>   with the grades, loved taking tests (he would sign up for them just
> for
>   fun), but he also remembers most of what he learned.
>
>   But have faith... he was willing to hear what it was like for me in
> school
>   and to consider that not everyone learns like he does.
>
>   He also knows he could have learned just as well without school and
>   teachers, and often teaches himself whatever he's interesetd in, so
> I
> don't
>   think he really had the idea that school was the magic deal.  But
> this
>   might be one important difference... if your dh feels that he
> wouldn't
> have
>   been able to learn all of the stuff he did without school then it
> will be
> a
>   much harder case.
>
>
>   >He will only read one book. So which one is the best one he should
> read.
>
>   Could you explain what his objections are again?  I'd be willing to
> talk
>   with my husband about them and see if he has any recommendations.
>
>
>   ciao
>   --bc--
>
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Schuyler Waynforth

I loved Innumeracy! Its one of the books that made the move from the
U.S. to the U.K. John Allan Paulos is so much fun to read. Not a
bad trade. Maybe you could trade Numeracy and A Mathematician Reads
the Newspaper as well and then you could offer him three books.

Schuyler





--- In [email protected], "Virginia Glasser"
<virginia@a...> wrote:
>
> He will only read one book. So which one is the best one he should
read. I
> feel pretty lucky getting him to do that much. But it's because I
agreed to
> read a book of his choice...which is "Innumeracy".
>
> Virginia Glasser
> StampinUp! Demonstrator
> http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
> I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
> Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SandraDodd@a... [mailto:SandraDodd@a...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 12:56 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] I'm new here and could use some help
>
>
>
> In a message dated 10/14/04 9:13:09 AM, ikonstitcher@c... writes:
>
> <<
> Suggest he read "The Book of Learning and Forgetting," by Frank
Smith.
> >>
>
> OH! Great suggestion.
>
> Frank Smith isn't a homeschooler at all, he's a professor of
something
> (cognition? psychology of education? not sure). He has a couple
of books
> on
> reading, too that would be probably excellent to put into the
hands of
> your husband.
>
> Frank Smith has two things men prize highly: a penis and a PhD.
> And he couldn't possibly tell any unschooling anecdotes.
>
> Sandra
>
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Robyn Coburn

<<<He insists that we have a schedule for Caitlin at the very least 15
minutes three days a week for her to sit down and be taught math. If I
wasn't running interference he would want more than that...say 30 minutes to
an hour every day.>>>

How does Caitlin feel about it? In the interest of stalling while he is able
to slowly see it "working" in other areas, is there some aspect of math, or
math-like activity that really appeals to her that would, as you say,
appease him? I'm sorry I forget how old you have said she is.

In terms of statistics, there is that one woman who was/is undertaking that
pretty comprehensive survey - I wonder how that is going, and what the
results are so far. Anyone recall the link to her site?

Aren't there some anti-pushing math (or anti early academics) studies and
statistics we can find somewhere to help him feel better about relaxing the
math push?

Robyn L. Coburn



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Schuyler Waynforth

Paula Rothermel from the University of Durham has found that there is
statistically no difference in educational attainment in families
that used curriculum versus families that followed a more child-led
or child autonomous approach. Not specifically termed unschooling,
but suggestive nonetheless. Her most recent paper, which is 2 years
old is here:
http://www.dur.ac.uk/p.j.rothermel/Research/Researchpaper/BERAworkingp
aper.htm
There is also a study done by Lawrence M. Rudner which states:

There is no significant difference in the mean composite
scaled scores of home school students enrolled in a full-service
curriculum and home school students not so enrolled. As shown in
Table 3.7, the means are quite close at all grade levels (F
enrollment=.24; df=1,9750; n.s.).


This is probably less useful, but again suggests that it isn't the
presence of a curriculum that is producing results for homeschooled
children. That study is here: http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/.
Possibly the amount of money spent on home educational tools may be
of use to him.

There is very little out there on homeschooled outcomes and far less
on the efficacy of any given homeschooling method. The real problem
it would seem is that he is unwilling to trust your feelings and your
research. Maybe that needs to be what you talk about. If he is
resistant to unschooling there is very little that you will be able
to produce to change his mind in the short term. Take Robyn's
suggestion and print out a bunch of posts and Sandra's articles and
get them bound at Kinkos. Leave printouts in the bathroom with no
other reading material at hand. Strew ideas about, point out how much
they know or have explored about various different things. Get
subscriptions to different magazines like Live Free Learn Free and
leave them laying around.

I can't imagine having to fight over the basic idealogy of
education. David and I have had discussions about food freedoms and
television freedoms, but he was always willing to give my ideas a
go. Nothing is permanent and if they didn't work we could always
change what we were doing.

I hope something clicks.

Schuyler


--- In [email protected], "Virginia Glasser"
<virginia@a...> wrote:
>
> Russell (my husband) feels that he wouldn't have gotten such a great
> education and be where he is today without "schooling" in the more
> traditional sense. He does believe in homeschooling btw, just thinks
> unschooling is a really big mistake. I can't convince him otherwise
because
> there is no hard data on unschooling statistic wise. All there is
are
> anecdotes and my husband does not accept those as evidence of
unschooling
> being a valid choice.

Barbara Chase

>All there is are anecdotes and my husband does not accept those as
>evidence of unschooling being a valid choice.

Hmmm, then I don't think one book will help you. I like some of the other
advice that you've received (along w/ some of the studies.) Which gives me
another idea all together for you... don't call it unschooling. You can
call your homeschooling method whatever you want, as long as you know it's
the right method for you and Caitlin. Since he has attached a huge issue
to the term unschooling, then call it something else.... like eclectic
child-led learning.

>He insists that we have a schedule for Caitlin at the very least 15
>minutes three days a week for her to sit down and be taught math.

Well, this can be really easy to do; math can be found in many places
(stores, games, cooking.) Some homeschoolers need to keep logs for their
state requirements. I know Sandra has a link that talks about how to do
this as an unschooler. Whether or not you are required to do it, you might
want to consider doing something like this for your husband's benefit. It
really shouldn't be too hard to show him how many hours you are actually
"doing math", as well as other subjects that he might be concerned about.

I don't recall how old Caitlin is, or how long she was in and then out of
school. Could it be that she is still deschooling?


ciao
--bc--

[email protected]

>All there is are anecdotes and my husband does not accept those as
>evidence of unschooling being a valid choice.<<<<



What about pointing out those things that you and your husband have learned
outside of school. My husband is 100% for unschooling but in just thinking
now I can think of everything we learned when we wanted to build our own deck
(materials, size, footings, design, etc.) and that led to landscaping and
more learning, gardening (soil testing, watering or not, finding areas that get
the most sun, different styles of gardens, etc.). And most recently raising
chickens for eggs. Those are things that neither of us had done before, we
did lots of reading, talking to people that had done these things. Going
around the neighborhood and looking at neighbors decks and gardens, so many
different techniques, materials, etc., to choose from.

Just so much learning that has happened outside of school. And so little of
the school stuff that I actually remembered.

Just a thought, if he isn't a reader maybe making it more personal will give
him something to think about.

Pam G






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

J. Stauffer

<<<<I'm pretty torn about what's best and feeling very confused. I feel like
he
> needs to be appeased at this point.>>>>

What a tough spot to be in. Why not play "Let's make a deal"? What about
him giving you a year to show that your daughter will make "progress", after
all that is all the schools hope for?

During that year, you will keep a log (not involving your daughter in any
way) of everything your daughter is learning. Sit with her while she
watches tv. Try to pick out information from even "fluff" shows that is
probably new to your daughter. Do fun stuff. Play. Explore. Go new
places. And keep a record.

If at the end of the year, he is not satisfied that she has learned, then
you will be willing for HIM to provide her a curriculum of sorts and for HIM
to work with her on it.

But he has to give you a year of being off y'all's back about it. What do
you think?

For us, it helped when I reminded dh that I loved our kids and would never,
ever do something that I thought wasn't in their best interests. I asked
him to trust me....and he did.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Virginia Glasser" <virginia@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] I'm new here and could use some help


>
>
> Russell (my husband) feels that he wouldn't have gotten such a great
> education and be where he is today without "schooling" in the more
> traditional sense. He does believe in homeschooling btw, just thinks
> unschooling is a really big mistake. I can't convince him otherwise
because
> there is no hard data on unschooling statistic wise. All there is are
> anecdotes and my husband does not accept those as evidence of unschooling
> being a valid choice.
>
> I guess his biggest objection is the concept of not pushing a child to
learn
> certain things...and math is his major concern, with science probably
being
> second. He insists that we have a schedule for Caitlin at the very least
15
> minutes three days a week for her to sit down and be taught math. If I
> wasn't running interference he would want more than that...say 30 minutes
to
> an hour every day.
>
> I'm pretty torn about what's best and feeling very confused. I feel like
he
> needs to be appeased at this point.
>
> Virginia Glasser
> StampinUp! Demonstrator
> http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
> I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
> Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barbara Chase [mailto:barb@...]
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:52 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] I'm new here and could use some help
>
>
> > > My contention is that even "A" students who study and do all of the
> > > homework fail to remember the content of the courses before much
time
> > > has passed. If your husband has an exceptional memory, this may
not
> be
> > > true of him.
> >
> >Hi Nancy,
> >
> >Yep he is the exception to the rule alright. That's why it's so hard to
> >convince him that unschooling is a terrific option.
>
> My husband is the exception as well. Not only did he love school, do
well
> with the grades, loved taking tests (he would sign up for them just for
> fun), but he also remembers most of what he learned.
>
> But have faith... he was willing to hear what it was like for me in
school
> and to consider that not everyone learns like he does.
>
> He also knows he could have learned just as well without school and
> teachers, and often teaches himself whatever he's interesetd in, so I
> don't
> think he really had the idea that school was the magic deal. But this
> might be one important difference... if your dh feels that he wouldn't
> have
> been able to learn all of the stuff he did without school then it will
be
> a
> much harder case.
>
>
> >He will only read one book. So which one is the best one he should
read.
>
> Could you explain what his objections are again? I'd be willing to talk
> with my husband about them and see if he has any recommendations.
>
>
> ciao
> --bc--
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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