children hurting with their words
Kristina Kahney
I've been lurking here and on UD for a couple of months (I think?) now, just absorbing information and allowing myself to make a paradigm shift in regards to my children and my parenting. My kids are 7,5,3, 20 months and our fifth is due in a couple of weeks. We've always been a very laid back and unstructured family, but I've had things to let go of (and still do ;) in order to get to the place that I visualize for our family.
One thing that I struggle so much with is my children and the name calling issue. It centers around my 5 yo son, who is extremely intense...he can blow you over with the Love that beams out of him and his kindness, or he can also erupt in terrible frustration like a volcano. One thing he resorts to is saying things like "I hate you" or "I'll kill you", "stupid", "shutup", etc. Unfortunately, some time back I have made the mistake of giving these phrases WAY too much power, but they are a hot button for me and my intelligent children certainly know it. Also, when their father gets mad, he tends to let things build up and then "explode" in the same way, and he is known to say hurtful things to me and the children (probably one reason why speaking this way is a hot button of mine...). Not the same phrases my 5 yo uses, but just saying hurtful things in general.
I've already tried to do the "controlling" thing by sending them to cool off or taking something away when this happens. Ok, obviously a hell of alot of good that approach did, LOL! I felt horrible after trying to manipulate them this way and they had hurt feelings with me acting in such a manner as well.
For awhile, now, I have vowed to simply look at them in the eyes and tell them how I feel when they do this...." I don't like being spoken to with those words. You sound (mad, angry, sad, etc..) tell me what's going on". To which, in the heat of the moment my 5 yo usually sticks his tongue out at me or screams something else in response. My 7 yo daughter doesn't do this, but my 3 yo son is now learning from watching his brother. It just seems like things are spiraling out of control with this issue, and my husband is blaming it all on me because "I just let the kids do whatever they want without teaching them any respect". Ugh.
My friends IRL that I've mentioned this too have all looked at me strangely saying, "gosh, my kids would NEVER say THAT!!". Well, that really helps, thanks! So, please give me your thoughts...be brutal I can take it. I'm tired, very pregnant, and just want to get along and have a more peaceful house (if that can ever happen with 5 kids, hehe!).
Thanks,
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One thing that I struggle so much with is my children and the name calling issue. It centers around my 5 yo son, who is extremely intense...he can blow you over with the Love that beams out of him and his kindness, or he can also erupt in terrible frustration like a volcano. One thing he resorts to is saying things like "I hate you" or "I'll kill you", "stupid", "shutup", etc. Unfortunately, some time back I have made the mistake of giving these phrases WAY too much power, but they are a hot button for me and my intelligent children certainly know it. Also, when their father gets mad, he tends to let things build up and then "explode" in the same way, and he is known to say hurtful things to me and the children (probably one reason why speaking this way is a hot button of mine...). Not the same phrases my 5 yo uses, but just saying hurtful things in general.
I've already tried to do the "controlling" thing by sending them to cool off or taking something away when this happens. Ok, obviously a hell of alot of good that approach did, LOL! I felt horrible after trying to manipulate them this way and they had hurt feelings with me acting in such a manner as well.
For awhile, now, I have vowed to simply look at them in the eyes and tell them how I feel when they do this...." I don't like being spoken to with those words. You sound (mad, angry, sad, etc..) tell me what's going on". To which, in the heat of the moment my 5 yo usually sticks his tongue out at me or screams something else in response. My 7 yo daughter doesn't do this, but my 3 yo son is now learning from watching his brother. It just seems like things are spiraling out of control with this issue, and my husband is blaming it all on me because "I just let the kids do whatever they want without teaching them any respect". Ugh.
My friends IRL that I've mentioned this too have all looked at me strangely saying, "gosh, my kids would NEVER say THAT!!". Well, that really helps, thanks! So, please give me your thoughts...be brutal I can take it. I'm tired, very pregnant, and just want to get along and have a more peaceful house (if that can ever happen with 5 kids, hehe!).
Thanks,
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/1/04 11:35:18 PM, kkahney@... writes:
<< I've already tried to do the "controlling" thing by sending them to cool
off or taking something away when this happens. Ok, obviously a hell of alot of
good that approach did, LOL! I felt horrible after trying to manipulate them
this way and they had hurt feelings with me acting in such a manner as well.
*with you* instead of sending him away it might be more helpful sometimes. (But
something you need to stay with the more wounded party, too, I know.)
Kirby was our worst offender at saying something hurtful. And it's hard (I
remember myself) being an only (or in your child's case, a younger) and then
being displaced before you were ready to give up your special mom-closeness.
I would take Kirby aside and let him vent to me. I'd ask him why he was
frustrated, or why he was tired, or "are you hungry?" "are you feeling sick?" and
basically debrief him sympathetically, but at the same time help him form his
own checklist of "what's my problem?" (There are adults who could use an
inner "what's my problem?" checklist. <g> I'm glad to have started developing one
myself, about the time I was 30. Before that, if I was angry I thought I was
entirely justified in being angry, and all factors were outside of me; I got
better.)
I have said to all my kids, but mostly Kirby on that case by case basis, that
I'm sorry if I have ever hurt them with words and made a bad memory they will
have always, and I'm sorry for some things I said to my sister when we were
little, that I could never ever take back. I would say that thinking
something mean without saying it ise peace of each of my children in his or her own
home insofar as I can, and I'm not just here to protect them from outsiders,
axe-murderers and boogie-men of whatever real or imagined sort, but from each
other as well.
It makes me crazy when I hear a mom say "They need to learn to work these
things out for themselves." It's such cop-out, and such disregard for both the
underdog kid AND the bullying kid, who is learning clearly that he can get
away with what he can get away with, and his mother isn't going to interfere
because she doesn't know or care how to make peace.
But then what about families where the mom really doesn't know how to make
peace? Maybe then it's good to have rules and time-outs so the peace kind of
keeps itself a little more. But I think if she can gain more peacemaking tools,
it's better for everyone.
-=-One thing he resorts to is saying things like "I hate you" or "I'll kill
you", "stupid", "shutup", etc. Unfortunately, some time back I have made the
mistake of giving these phrases WAY too much power, but they are a hot button
for me and my intelligent children certainly know it. -=-
I think they phrases do have power.
My husband is a big strong guy and learned early in his life that he had to
literally and figuratively pull his punches. He COULD kill someone, and so he
had to learn to be patient and gentle, and to learn how to calm himself. And
all people who are trained to kill need (theoretically and ideally) to also
learn how not to WANT to kill, and not to pull it out except in the direst
emergency.
A desire to kill, with or without the knowledge and ability, isn't a healing,
soothing, thing.
I would recommend putting him in a martial arts class with a teacher who
stresses control and patience. When Kirby wanted to take karate, I called around
and visited until I found a school that seemed peaceful and philosophical and
historical, not all street-fighting-technique and tournament preparation.
And so now Kirby can take another person down without really thinking about it
hard, but he has never laid a hand on another person (past when he was quite
younger and would try to strongarm Marty out of his room or away from his
stuff).
-=-Also, when their father gets mad, he tends to let things build up and then
"explode" in the same way, and he is known to say hurtful things to me and
the children -=-
Genetics.
What we saw in Kirby, we countered earliest with breathing.
"Take a deep breath, Kirby and then when you calm down tell us what happened."
First the calming down, and then the report/complaint.
Here's a more detailed account of the best way I found to deal with disputes
with kids. After me writing it several times, someone pressed me to put it
out one more time so I didn't just get tired of reporting it.
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
-=-It just seems like things are spiraling out of control with this issue,
and my husband is blaming it all on me because "I just let the kids do whatever
they want without teaching them any respect". -=-
-=- felt horrible after trying to manipulate them this way-=-
Personally, I think it's a mother's job to manipulate the feelings of
children who are being hurtful to others. Your other children are counting on you
to make things better. And those thoughts and meanness are coming from
something real inside him that he needs to learn to control. Spanking him will
make it worse. Saying mean awful things to him too will make it worse.
Punishments and groundings and limits might make it worse. But if you can figure
out what to say to help him change his thinking, that could make it better.
Helping him think about times he was hurt by others' words, or helping him find
any sort of self-comfort, self-restraint tricks of his own are better for
him, for you, for your husband, and for the other kids. Better for the
neighbors. Better for your son's future wife and children.
Karate, if you can manage it. Maybe today. <G>
I really think it could help.
Sandra
<< I've already tried to do the "controlling" thing by sending them to cool
off or taking something away when this happens. Ok, obviously a hell of alot of
good that approach did, LOL! I felt horrible after trying to manipulate them
this way and they had hurt feelings with me acting in such a manner as well.
>>It's got to be hard to do with two yonger kids, but if you take him aside
*with you* instead of sending him away it might be more helpful sometimes. (But
something you need to stay with the more wounded party, too, I know.)
Kirby was our worst offender at saying something hurtful. And it's hard (I
remember myself) being an only (or in your child's case, a younger) and then
being displaced before you were ready to give up your special mom-closeness.
I would take Kirby aside and let him vent to me. I'd ask him why he was
frustrated, or why he was tired, or "are you hungry?" "are you feeling sick?" and
basically debrief him sympathetically, but at the same time help him form his
own checklist of "what's my problem?" (There are adults who could use an
inner "what's my problem?" checklist. <g> I'm glad to have started developing one
myself, about the time I was 30. Before that, if I was angry I thought I was
entirely justified in being angry, and all factors were outside of me; I got
better.)
I have said to all my kids, but mostly Kirby on that case by case basis, that
I'm sorry if I have ever hurt them with words and made a bad memory they will
have always, and I'm sorry for some things I said to my sister when we were
little, that I could never ever take back. I would say that thinking
something mean without saying it ise peace of each of my children in his or her own
home insofar as I can, and I'm not just here to protect them from outsiders,
axe-murderers and boogie-men of whatever real or imagined sort, but from each
other as well.
It makes me crazy when I hear a mom say "They need to learn to work these
things out for themselves." It's such cop-out, and such disregard for both the
underdog kid AND the bullying kid, who is learning clearly that he can get
away with what he can get away with, and his mother isn't going to interfere
because she doesn't know or care how to make peace.
But then what about families where the mom really doesn't know how to make
peace? Maybe then it's good to have rules and time-outs so the peace kind of
keeps itself a little more. But I think if she can gain more peacemaking tools,
it's better for everyone.
-=-One thing he resorts to is saying things like "I hate you" or "I'll kill
you", "stupid", "shutup", etc. Unfortunately, some time back I have made the
mistake of giving these phrases WAY too much power, but they are a hot button
for me and my intelligent children certainly know it. -=-
I think they phrases do have power.
My husband is a big strong guy and learned early in his life that he had to
literally and figuratively pull his punches. He COULD kill someone, and so he
had to learn to be patient and gentle, and to learn how to calm himself. And
all people who are trained to kill need (theoretically and ideally) to also
learn how not to WANT to kill, and not to pull it out except in the direst
emergency.
A desire to kill, with or without the knowledge and ability, isn't a healing,
soothing, thing.
I would recommend putting him in a martial arts class with a teacher who
stresses control and patience. When Kirby wanted to take karate, I called around
and visited until I found a school that seemed peaceful and philosophical and
historical, not all street-fighting-technique and tournament preparation.
And so now Kirby can take another person down without really thinking about it
hard, but he has never laid a hand on another person (past when he was quite
younger and would try to strongarm Marty out of his room or away from his
stuff).
-=-Also, when their father gets mad, he tends to let things build up and then
"explode" in the same way, and he is known to say hurtful things to me and
the children -=-
Genetics.
What we saw in Kirby, we countered earliest with breathing.
"Take a deep breath, Kirby and then when you calm down tell us what happened."
First the calming down, and then the report/complaint.
Here's a more detailed account of the best way I found to deal with disputes
with kids. After me writing it several times, someone pressed me to put it
out one more time so I didn't just get tired of reporting it.
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
-=-It just seems like things are spiraling out of control with this issue,
and my husband is blaming it all on me because "I just let the kids do whatever
they want without teaching them any respect". -=-
-=- felt horrible after trying to manipulate them this way-=-
Personally, I think it's a mother's job to manipulate the feelings of
children who are being hurtful to others. Your other children are counting on you
to make things better. And those thoughts and meanness are coming from
something real inside him that he needs to learn to control. Spanking him will
make it worse. Saying mean awful things to him too will make it worse.
Punishments and groundings and limits might make it worse. But if you can figure
out what to say to help him change his thinking, that could make it better.
Helping him think about times he was hurt by others' words, or helping him find
any sort of self-comfort, self-restraint tricks of his own are better for
him, for you, for your husband, and for the other kids. Better for the
neighbors. Better for your son's future wife and children.
Karate, if you can manage it. Maybe today. <G>
I really think it could help.
Sandra
catherine aceto
I really liked Sandra's advice -- but also some other more short term things I thought of:
In cases where he is saying these things to YOU - I have found that a mild "really?" can often diffuse the situation with my highly emotional nearly 7 yo - and picturing myself absorbing her anger, rather than reflecting it (or adding my own!).
Sometimes after the crisis has passed, I follow up with the informational, "it hurts my feelings when you say that I am mean and horrible and never do anything you want. do you really feel like that?" Not in a shaming voice, and not in a long drawn out discussion - but as information. My other child is only 2, so she has never yelled anything at him, but I think if she did I might do the same mild information that she probably hurt his feelings and did she really feel like that?
If it is just the words that bug you "stupid" "shut-up" "I hate you" that bother you -- can you get a book of Shakespearean insults or something and see if the two of you can come up with some more colorful but less hurtfully emotional words for him to use to blow off steam? Maybe if he yelled something like "you puling poltroon" it would feel less hurtful to all involved because the words had less emotional power?
The thing I liked about Sandra's advice, is that it was long-term advice on how not to grow up into a person who holds things in and then explodes - my advice is more about managing the moment. But I have noticed my own now nearly 7 y.o., seems to simply be growing out of many of those explosive name-calling behaviors that she had when she was 5 (though she is still prone to melt-downs when overly stressed by things like noise or activitiy) No one in her genetic line is prone to explosive, confrontive anger, though, so that may make a difference.
Hope some of this helped.
-Cat
In cases where he is saying these things to YOU - I have found that a mild "really?" can often diffuse the situation with my highly emotional nearly 7 yo - and picturing myself absorbing her anger, rather than reflecting it (or adding my own!).
Sometimes after the crisis has passed, I follow up with the informational, "it hurts my feelings when you say that I am mean and horrible and never do anything you want. do you really feel like that?" Not in a shaming voice, and not in a long drawn out discussion - but as information. My other child is only 2, so she has never yelled anything at him, but I think if she did I might do the same mild information that she probably hurt his feelings and did she really feel like that?
If it is just the words that bug you "stupid" "shut-up" "I hate you" that bother you -- can you get a book of Shakespearean insults or something and see if the two of you can come up with some more colorful but less hurtfully emotional words for him to use to blow off steam? Maybe if he yelled something like "you puling poltroon" it would feel less hurtful to all involved because the words had less emotional power?
The thing I liked about Sandra's advice, is that it was long-term advice on how not to grow up into a person who holds things in and then explodes - my advice is more about managing the moment. But I have noticed my own now nearly 7 y.o., seems to simply be growing out of many of those explosive name-calling behaviors that she had when she was 5 (though she is still prone to melt-downs when overly stressed by things like noise or activitiy) No one in her genetic line is prone to explosive, confrontive anger, though, so that may make a difference.
Hope some of this helped.
-Cat
----- Original Message -----
From: Kristina Kahney
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 10:02 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] children hurting with their words
One thing that I struggle so much with is my children and the name calling issue. It centers around my 5 yo son, who is extremely intense...he can blow you over with the Love that beams out of him and his kindness, or he can also erupt in terrible frustration like a volcano. One thing he resorts to is saying things like "I hate you" or "I'll kill you", "stupid", "shutup", etc.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
Kristina,
I read your post and so understood how you were describing your 5 yo. My
kids are 7, 5 and 4, and my 4 yo is extremely intense and explosive,
very much like you describe. When he was younger, much of his anger
would come out as aggression. Now that he's a bit older, he has shifted
into verbal aggression, which is a step better, but still aggression
nonetheless. Part of my job as a mother, I believe, is to provide a
safe, nurturing environment for *all* my children, and it breaks my
heart that there are times when it's a sibling I must protect them from.
It's so much easier when it's us against the world! *g*
I didn't reply to you right away because I've been dealing with this
very issue myself and had no words of wisdom. I was soul-sick and
looking for my own support... I still have no words or wisdom, but I do
now have the energy to commiserate and share some of what we're trying
to do here.
I have to say that my guy's rage seems to come in cycles. Things will be
really good for a while, then really bad for a while. I'm still not
quite sure what sends him into a tailspin. It may be that we get too
busy and stop honoring his need for down time; it may just be that he
has a threshold and once crossed needs to blow off steam for a while.
I agree that controlling and time-outs don't work--in fact it escalates
the behavior. I discovered a long time ago, that walking away from my
guy while he was in one of his rages was the worst thing I could do to
him. The fear behind his eyes cut to my heart, and I could see that I
was abandoning him when he needed me most. That need can be difficult to
see when he doesn't want a hug or any kind of nurturing that I might try
to give, but the need is for my presence to reassure him that he is not
alone and that he is loved and that I will be there for him when he is
ready to be loved.
When Sam says hateful things, my response is often, "Please don't hurt
me/Em/ Julia with your words. You must feel really mad to have to get it
out like that, and you just need to get that hurt out, huh? Is there
something I can do to help?" Yes, lots of times the response is a
guttural, back of the throat scream or a stick the tongue out raspberry.
Some of the time, it's a melting, "Yes, sorry mama" and curl up in my
lap. I wish I could make the latter response the norm, but that's up to
him not me.
I think the important thing with small kids is just being there to
calmly, gently, immediately intervene, letting them all know that this
is not how people can be treated within the family. Reasoning with Sam
when he's raging is impossible, but talking with him after the fact
about his need for respect and the need for respect to work both ways
is, I believe, helpful for the long run if not the immediate moment.
With younger children I really do believe that much of the work we do is
groundwork, the effects of which are long term rather than short term.
You're welcome to join us over at AlwaysUnschooled, where we talk a lot
about Unschooling issues with smaller children--under 8:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled
Hope this is a bit helpful.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
I read your post and so understood how you were describing your 5 yo. My
kids are 7, 5 and 4, and my 4 yo is extremely intense and explosive,
very much like you describe. When he was younger, much of his anger
would come out as aggression. Now that he's a bit older, he has shifted
into verbal aggression, which is a step better, but still aggression
nonetheless. Part of my job as a mother, I believe, is to provide a
safe, nurturing environment for *all* my children, and it breaks my
heart that there are times when it's a sibling I must protect them from.
It's so much easier when it's us against the world! *g*
I didn't reply to you right away because I've been dealing with this
very issue myself and had no words of wisdom. I was soul-sick and
looking for my own support... I still have no words or wisdom, but I do
now have the energy to commiserate and share some of what we're trying
to do here.
I have to say that my guy's rage seems to come in cycles. Things will be
really good for a while, then really bad for a while. I'm still not
quite sure what sends him into a tailspin. It may be that we get too
busy and stop honoring his need for down time; it may just be that he
has a threshold and once crossed needs to blow off steam for a while.
I agree that controlling and time-outs don't work--in fact it escalates
the behavior. I discovered a long time ago, that walking away from my
guy while he was in one of his rages was the worst thing I could do to
him. The fear behind his eyes cut to my heart, and I could see that I
was abandoning him when he needed me most. That need can be difficult to
see when he doesn't want a hug or any kind of nurturing that I might try
to give, but the need is for my presence to reassure him that he is not
alone and that he is loved and that I will be there for him when he is
ready to be loved.
When Sam says hateful things, my response is often, "Please don't hurt
me/Em/ Julia with your words. You must feel really mad to have to get it
out like that, and you just need to get that hurt out, huh? Is there
something I can do to help?" Yes, lots of times the response is a
guttural, back of the throat scream or a stick the tongue out raspberry.
Some of the time, it's a melting, "Yes, sorry mama" and curl up in my
lap. I wish I could make the latter response the norm, but that's up to
him not me.
I think the important thing with small kids is just being there to
calmly, gently, immediately intervene, letting them all know that this
is not how people can be treated within the family. Reasoning with Sam
when he's raging is impossible, but talking with him after the fact
about his need for respect and the need for respect to work both ways
is, I believe, helpful for the long run if not the immediate moment.
With younger children I really do believe that much of the work we do is
groundwork, the effects of which are long term rather than short term.
You're welcome to join us over at AlwaysUnschooled, where we talk a lot
about Unschooling issues with smaller children--under 8:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysUnschooled
Hope this is a bit helpful.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
Danielle Conger
I think the important thing with small kids is just being there to
calmly, gently, immediately intervene, letting them all know that this
is not how people can be treated within the family.
========
That sounds like I mean to imply that rage directed outside the family
is okay. Not what I meant at all. *g*
Sam's rage is almost always directed at someone within the
family--partly because he doesn't usually play with other kids and
partly because this is where he feel safe.
Just wanted to make that clear.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
calmly, gently, immediately intervene, letting them all know that this
is not how people can be treated within the family.
========
That sounds like I mean to imply that rage directed outside the family
is okay. Not what I meant at all. *g*
Sam's rage is almost always directed at someone within the
family--partly because he doesn't usually play with other kids and
partly because this is where he feel safe.
Just wanted to make that clear.
--Danielle
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
mozafamily
It sounds like you are getting some good advise so far I just
wanted to add that the way I think of it as usually that the child
just hasn't learned the correct way to ask for what he wants or
needs. My 6 yo occasionally tells me to "Shut up" and it is usually
during a situation where he feels like he would rather be doing
something else but is stuck with a mom who is visiting with a
friend, etc.
Sometimes I reply with a simple - "I will be able to stop
talking in just a minute and then we can get going, Thank you for
being so patient with me" and if it keeps up then later (after the
friend has left or take him aside alone) I will confirm his feelings
that he is ready to go, bored, wanting some attention for himself,
etc. whatever and I will ask that he would please try to let me know
what is going on with him in a more polite way, and I may also
remind him of how I am patient for him while he is looking at toys
etc. so perhaps that this could be a time he could be patient for me
etc. I think of it as the child not really understanding either the
polite way of saying something or perhaps he is at a loss for better
words but feels strongly about a situation.
He went though a short phase (I look back and now it seems short
but I'm sure at the time it seems an eternity) where he would yell
something like " I hate you " or "I don't want you for my parent
anymore", etc. and I was able to restate those for him like perhaps
he was saying he wanted to be able to have something for himself or
perhaps he was just trying to say that he didn't agree with us and
when I kept restating what he was saying with more appropriate
expressions then he was able to follow my model and now he rarely
says something totally inappropriate and in those cases he is
usually noticably hungry or tired as well.
There was one instance before he really seemed to "understand"
that his words were capable of hurting me that he actually drove me
to tears and then he asked me what I was crying for because he was
the one who was upset and so I told him that his words had hurt me,
etc. that was kind of a turning point for both of us, that he
started to understand his words could hurt and I started to
understand that he didn't realize what he was saying so I shouldn't
take it at face value, etc. The book the Explosive child (by Green
I think) gives some good examples about teaching a child better use
of their own words, but I don't agree with everything from the book
(especially his views on medicine or school)but that's like most
books I read I take what is useful to me and leave what isn't. Moza
--- In [email protected], Kristina Kahney
<kkahney@y...> wrote:
paradigm shift in regards to my children and my parenting. My kids
are 7,5,3, 20 months and our fifth is due in a couple of weeks.
We've always been a very laid back and unstructured family, but I've
had things to let go of (and still do ;) in order to get to the
place that I visualize for our family.
wanted to add that the way I think of it as usually that the child
just hasn't learned the correct way to ask for what he wants or
needs. My 6 yo occasionally tells me to "Shut up" and it is usually
during a situation where he feels like he would rather be doing
something else but is stuck with a mom who is visiting with a
friend, etc.
Sometimes I reply with a simple - "I will be able to stop
talking in just a minute and then we can get going, Thank you for
being so patient with me" and if it keeps up then later (after the
friend has left or take him aside alone) I will confirm his feelings
that he is ready to go, bored, wanting some attention for himself,
etc. whatever and I will ask that he would please try to let me know
what is going on with him in a more polite way, and I may also
remind him of how I am patient for him while he is looking at toys
etc. so perhaps that this could be a time he could be patient for me
etc. I think of it as the child not really understanding either the
polite way of saying something or perhaps he is at a loss for better
words but feels strongly about a situation.
He went though a short phase (I look back and now it seems short
but I'm sure at the time it seems an eternity) where he would yell
something like " I hate you " or "I don't want you for my parent
anymore", etc. and I was able to restate those for him like perhaps
he was saying he wanted to be able to have something for himself or
perhaps he was just trying to say that he didn't agree with us and
when I kept restating what he was saying with more appropriate
expressions then he was able to follow my model and now he rarely
says something totally inappropriate and in those cases he is
usually noticably hungry or tired as well.
There was one instance before he really seemed to "understand"
that his words were capable of hurting me that he actually drove me
to tears and then he asked me what I was crying for because he was
the one who was upset and so I told him that his words had hurt me,
etc. that was kind of a turning point for both of us, that he
started to understand his words could hurt and I started to
understand that he didn't realize what he was saying so I shouldn't
take it at face value, etc. The book the Explosive child (by Green
I think) gives some good examples about teaching a child better use
of their own words, but I don't agree with everything from the book
(especially his views on medicine or school)but that's like most
books I read I take what is useful to me and leave what isn't. Moza
--- In [email protected], Kristina Kahney
<kkahney@y...> wrote:
> I've been lurking here and on UD for a couple of months (I think?)now, just absorbing information and allowing myself to make a
paradigm shift in regards to my children and my parenting. My kids
are 7,5,3, 20 months and our fifth is due in a couple of weeks.
We've always been a very laid back and unstructured family, but I've
had things to let go of (and still do ;) in order to get to the
place that I visualize for our family.
Gold Standard
Hi Kristina,
My now 14 year old Max had the most intense tantrums when he was 4 and 5. In
fact, I might even call them psychotic-looking (kidding! kidding! That was a
joke in reference to an earlier thread that caused a big response!).
I learned that the most important thing in the moment of intense emotion is
to listen to the child. I like Sandra's suggestion to take him aside so as
not to upset others around you as much as possible, though the others
certainly can learn from watching how to handle rage with love. Becoming the
"victim" of your son's behavior definitely takes the heat off everyone else
too. But ideally, taking the problem away from others is probably a good
idea.
There is no talking "sense" to a child who is in the throws of emotions.
They need loving attention. It's usually not a good time to tell them how it
makes you feel. You have to take your triggers out of the equation. If what
he is saying bothers you in the moment, do your best to see that this is
simply a child in need of being listened to. You are his safe sounding
board. When he has a chance to let it out, he will be calmer, and that is a
great time to re-evaluate the situation together.
If he is saying these things without intense emotion, but instead with
seeming intent to be mean, then I would simply intervene to stop the
behavior and then engage in discussion. Sometimes stopping the behavior will
actually trigger strong emotion, and then that is a good opportunity for the
child to release feelings that need to get out of the way. They are probably
the crux of what is driving his negative behavior.
We have had family meeting discussions in general about mean talk. Everyone
has a chance to say how they feel when different things are said to them.
Give examples that are close to what you hear your guy(s) say as part of the
discussion. In a safe environment, the "victims" and "abusers" can each say
their thoughts and hear how others are effected. You may even get to
brainstorm ideas of what to do when:
-feeling like you want to say something mean to someone
-someone says something mean to you
-you hear someone being mean to someone else
Coming up with ideas together can help everyone feel like they have been
part of the problem-solving, and help enroll everyone in making the
situation better.
I realize that a couple of your children may be too young for participating
in discussions. If they see it happening at an early age though, they will
grow with a great example of how to work things out together.
My son Max turned into a mild-mannered, deep thinking individual. His
occasional babysitter back then told me that she was very worried he had the
personality of a future axe murderer (yes, she was canned). Fortunately, I
had supportive people reminding me not to not be scared, it was not a
permanent thing, he just had feelings to get rid of, and to just keep
listening lovingly, and keep asking for help when I was stuck. I think that
advise was right on. It sounds like you do a lot of this already! I so
remember trying to get through tantrums without losing it myself. When the
tantrum was over, I learned to call a trusted friend to vent all the things
that it brought up in me. That helped me be clearer for the next one.
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: Kristina Kahney [mailto:kkahney@...]
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] children hurting with their words
I've been lurking here and on UD for a couple of months (I think?) now, just
absorbing information and allowing myself to make a paradigm shift in
regards to my children and my parenting. My kids are 7,5,3, 20 months and
our fifth is due in a couple of weeks. We've always been a very laid back
and unstructured family, but I've had things to let go of (and still do ;)
in order to get to the place that I visualize for our family.
One thing that I struggle so much with is my children and the name calling
issue. It centers around my 5 yo son, who is extremely intense...he can blow
you over with the Love that beams out of him and his kindness, or he can
also erupt in terrible frustration like a volcano. One thing he resorts to
is saying things like "I hate you" or "I'll kill you", "stupid", "shutup",
etc. Unfortunately, some time back I have made the mistake of giving these
phrases WAY too much power, but they are a hot button for me and my
intelligent children certainly know it. Also, when their father gets mad, he
tends to let things build up and then "explode" in the same way, and he is
known to say hurtful things to me and the children (probably one reason why
speaking this way is a hot button of mine...). Not the same phrases my 5 yo
uses, but just saying hurtful things in general.
I've already tried to do the "controlling" thing by sending them to cool off
or taking something away when this happens. Ok, obviously a hell of alot of
good that approach did, LOL! I felt horrible after trying to manipulate them
this way and they had hurt feelings with me acting in such a manner as well.
For awhile, now, I have vowed to simply look at them in the eyes and tell
them how I feel when they do this...." I don't like being spoken to with
those words. You sound (mad, angry, sad, etc..) tell me what's going on". To
which, in the heat of the moment my 5 yo usually sticks his tongue out at me
or screams something else in response. My 7 yo daughter doesn't do this, but
my 3 yo son is now learning from watching his brother. It just seems like
things are spiraling out of control with this issue, and my husband is
blaming it all on me because "I just let the kids do whatever they want
without teaching them any respect". Ugh.
My friends IRL that I've mentioned this too have all looked at me strangely
saying, "gosh, my kids would NEVER say THAT!!". Well, that really helps,
thanks! So, please give me your thoughts...be brutal I can take it. I'm
tired, very pregnant, and just want to get along and have a more peaceful
house (if that can ever happen with 5 kids, hehe!).
Thanks,
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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My now 14 year old Max had the most intense tantrums when he was 4 and 5. In
fact, I might even call them psychotic-looking (kidding! kidding! That was a
joke in reference to an earlier thread that caused a big response!).
I learned that the most important thing in the moment of intense emotion is
to listen to the child. I like Sandra's suggestion to take him aside so as
not to upset others around you as much as possible, though the others
certainly can learn from watching how to handle rage with love. Becoming the
"victim" of your son's behavior definitely takes the heat off everyone else
too. But ideally, taking the problem away from others is probably a good
idea.
There is no talking "sense" to a child who is in the throws of emotions.
They need loving attention. It's usually not a good time to tell them how it
makes you feel. You have to take your triggers out of the equation. If what
he is saying bothers you in the moment, do your best to see that this is
simply a child in need of being listened to. You are his safe sounding
board. When he has a chance to let it out, he will be calmer, and that is a
great time to re-evaluate the situation together.
If he is saying these things without intense emotion, but instead with
seeming intent to be mean, then I would simply intervene to stop the
behavior and then engage in discussion. Sometimes stopping the behavior will
actually trigger strong emotion, and then that is a good opportunity for the
child to release feelings that need to get out of the way. They are probably
the crux of what is driving his negative behavior.
We have had family meeting discussions in general about mean talk. Everyone
has a chance to say how they feel when different things are said to them.
Give examples that are close to what you hear your guy(s) say as part of the
discussion. In a safe environment, the "victims" and "abusers" can each say
their thoughts and hear how others are effected. You may even get to
brainstorm ideas of what to do when:
-feeling like you want to say something mean to someone
-someone says something mean to you
-you hear someone being mean to someone else
Coming up with ideas together can help everyone feel like they have been
part of the problem-solving, and help enroll everyone in making the
situation better.
I realize that a couple of your children may be too young for participating
in discussions. If they see it happening at an early age though, they will
grow with a great example of how to work things out together.
My son Max turned into a mild-mannered, deep thinking individual. His
occasional babysitter back then told me that she was very worried he had the
personality of a future axe murderer (yes, she was canned). Fortunately, I
had supportive people reminding me not to not be scared, it was not a
permanent thing, he just had feelings to get rid of, and to just keep
listening lovingly, and keep asking for help when I was stuck. I think that
advise was right on. It sounds like you do a lot of this already! I so
remember trying to get through tantrums without losing it myself. When the
tantrum was over, I learned to call a trusted friend to vent all the things
that it brought up in me. That helped me be clearer for the next one.
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: Kristina Kahney [mailto:kkahney@...]
Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 7:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] children hurting with their words
I've been lurking here and on UD for a couple of months (I think?) now, just
absorbing information and allowing myself to make a paradigm shift in
regards to my children and my parenting. My kids are 7,5,3, 20 months and
our fifth is due in a couple of weeks. We've always been a very laid back
and unstructured family, but I've had things to let go of (and still do ;)
in order to get to the place that I visualize for our family.
One thing that I struggle so much with is my children and the name calling
issue. It centers around my 5 yo son, who is extremely intense...he can blow
you over with the Love that beams out of him and his kindness, or he can
also erupt in terrible frustration like a volcano. One thing he resorts to
is saying things like "I hate you" or "I'll kill you", "stupid", "shutup",
etc. Unfortunately, some time back I have made the mistake of giving these
phrases WAY too much power, but they are a hot button for me and my
intelligent children certainly know it. Also, when their father gets mad, he
tends to let things build up and then "explode" in the same way, and he is
known to say hurtful things to me and the children (probably one reason why
speaking this way is a hot button of mine...). Not the same phrases my 5 yo
uses, but just saying hurtful things in general.
I've already tried to do the "controlling" thing by sending them to cool off
or taking something away when this happens. Ok, obviously a hell of alot of
good that approach did, LOL! I felt horrible after trying to manipulate them
this way and they had hurt feelings with me acting in such a manner as well.
For awhile, now, I have vowed to simply look at them in the eyes and tell
them how I feel when they do this...." I don't like being spoken to with
those words. You sound (mad, angry, sad, etc..) tell me what's going on". To
which, in the heat of the moment my 5 yo usually sticks his tongue out at me
or screams something else in response. My 7 yo daughter doesn't do this, but
my 3 yo son is now learning from watching his brother. It just seems like
things are spiraling out of control with this issue, and my husband is
blaming it all on me because "I just let the kids do whatever they want
without teaching them any respect". Ugh.
My friends IRL that I've mentioned this too have all looked at me strangely
saying, "gosh, my kids would NEVER say THAT!!". Well, that really helps,
thanks! So, please give me your thoughts...be brutal I can take it. I'm
tired, very pregnant, and just want to get along and have a more peaceful
house (if that can ever happen with 5 kids, hehe!).
Thanks,
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Kristina Kahney
Gosh,
Thank you *so much* to everyone for taking the time to respond to my challenges. I am saving all of these posts to refer back to often in times when I need some ideas.
It's especially nice to hear about your son, Jaki, who is now older and has had these very intense emotional outbursts like I'm experiencing. My son, Liam, was born intense. At about 15 months he started throwing himself down on the ground, kicking and screaming, when things were not as he needed them to be. I wondered what the heck was happening, because my first child never, EVER, did anything even remotely related to an episode such as this. The hardest and scariest thing for me, as a mother, was that even at that very young age he would never let me touch or console him. I would just sit with him, feeling so helpless, until he was done and would come up and finally snuggle and nurse with me. But, it was always on his terms, and if I tried to sing, speak softly, or touch him he would loose it even more. This continued until he was into his 3's (peaking between 15 months-3 yrs and then tapering off until he was around 4).
Once he turned 4 he really seemed to hit an even streak. During these times I read a gillion books (all LLL-ish books, as I am a local leader and that was my resource), and tried and tried to give him words to match his feelings, etc. Then, as Danielle mentioned, his physical aggression (though never really taken out on anyone else, just with himself) turned to verbal aggression with family members when upset. And, also, he is just really strong and literally doesn't know his strength with his 3 yo brother who is much more slight and petite than my very muscular 5 yo.
We do tell lots of stories about people learning to use their strength wisely (like Hercules) and I watch for movies that might have these themes as well. I like Sandra's idea of martial arts, we will look into that in the future. He just started soccer, and this is his first "activity" away from home which is a big deal for him. He may not be quite ready yet for a structured class as martial arts, but we will see. Also, getting him away and focusing attention ON HIM when (or ideally right before he melts down) is ideal. My main struggle is my natural inclination is to focus on the victim, and I'm usually juggling the younger children at the same time. I am going to make a big effort to make sure I can do this much more often (especially here before the baby comes), and try to make that connection with him in the moment, even if it's just sitting with him quietly as it was when he was a baby.
Also, I can relate to Jaki as all of those "well meaning" family members are so concerned that "I allow" this out of control behavior and say often they are concerned about what kind of older child and adult he will be. I just think that's horrible. It's certainly not like I'm saying "well, whatever, he'll work it out on his own", I'm trying different things, and most importantly my heart is there with him trying to help in ways that I know how. I KNOW he knows this and that is most important.
I've always felt that Liam was born with such a great Spirit and has had a bit of a harder time adjusting to this earthly world than some others have. I do CHOOSE to always see Liam surrounded by Light and beauty and for the wonderful, creative, powerful person/soul that he is. Thank you all so much for your words, they have helped me greatly!
Blessings,
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you *so much* to everyone for taking the time to respond to my challenges. I am saving all of these posts to refer back to often in times when I need some ideas.
It's especially nice to hear about your son, Jaki, who is now older and has had these very intense emotional outbursts like I'm experiencing. My son, Liam, was born intense. At about 15 months he started throwing himself down on the ground, kicking and screaming, when things were not as he needed them to be. I wondered what the heck was happening, because my first child never, EVER, did anything even remotely related to an episode such as this. The hardest and scariest thing for me, as a mother, was that even at that very young age he would never let me touch or console him. I would just sit with him, feeling so helpless, until he was done and would come up and finally snuggle and nurse with me. But, it was always on his terms, and if I tried to sing, speak softly, or touch him he would loose it even more. This continued until he was into his 3's (peaking between 15 months-3 yrs and then tapering off until he was around 4).
Once he turned 4 he really seemed to hit an even streak. During these times I read a gillion books (all LLL-ish books, as I am a local leader and that was my resource), and tried and tried to give him words to match his feelings, etc. Then, as Danielle mentioned, his physical aggression (though never really taken out on anyone else, just with himself) turned to verbal aggression with family members when upset. And, also, he is just really strong and literally doesn't know his strength with his 3 yo brother who is much more slight and petite than my very muscular 5 yo.
We do tell lots of stories about people learning to use their strength wisely (like Hercules) and I watch for movies that might have these themes as well. I like Sandra's idea of martial arts, we will look into that in the future. He just started soccer, and this is his first "activity" away from home which is a big deal for him. He may not be quite ready yet for a structured class as martial arts, but we will see. Also, getting him away and focusing attention ON HIM when (or ideally right before he melts down) is ideal. My main struggle is my natural inclination is to focus on the victim, and I'm usually juggling the younger children at the same time. I am going to make a big effort to make sure I can do this much more often (especially here before the baby comes), and try to make that connection with him in the moment, even if it's just sitting with him quietly as it was when he was a baby.
Also, I can relate to Jaki as all of those "well meaning" family members are so concerned that "I allow" this out of control behavior and say often they are concerned about what kind of older child and adult he will be. I just think that's horrible. It's certainly not like I'm saying "well, whatever, he'll work it out on his own", I'm trying different things, and most importantly my heart is there with him trying to help in ways that I know how. I KNOW he knows this and that is most important.
I've always felt that Liam was born with such a great Spirit and has had a bit of a harder time adjusting to this earthly world than some others have. I do CHOOSE to always see Liam surrounded by Light and beauty and for the wonderful, creative, powerful person/soul that he is. Thank you all so much for your words, they have helped me greatly!
Blessings,
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/3/04 5:08:27 PM, mozafamily@... writes:
<< My 6 yo occasionally tells me to "Shut up" and it is usually
during a situation where he feels like he would rather be doing
something else but is stuck with a mom who is visiting with a
friend, etc. >>
At the risk of sounding like a crazed 50's mom, I wouldn't have a child say
"shut up" to me any more than ONCE. "Occasionally" sounds like "all the time
to me, for something like that. But I categorize "shut up" with "eat shit
and die" and other really extreme, awful thigs that should only be said jokingly
among VERY close friends.
-=- Sometimes I reply with a simple - "I will be able to stop
talking in just a minute and then we can get going, Thank you for
being so patient with me"-=-
That's not simple. That's like 25 words or so. That's a speech.
I'm not saying "thank you" to ANY human who tells me to shut up.
-=-I may also
remind him of how I am patient for him while he is looking at toys
etc. so perhaps that this could be a time he could be patient for me
etc-=-
It's not about patience, which is hard for ANYONE to learn. It's about the
level of insult in the language.
-=-I think of it as the child not really understanding either the
polite way of saying something or perhaps he is at a loss for better
words but feels strongly about a situation. -=-
I feel strongly that if parents model subtle, courteous ways to get someone's
attention and to communicate, the children will learn that. But modelling
takes a while. In the meantime, I don't think "shut up" is a useful addition to
any conversation (except those in which the people are ending their
relationship).
-=- He went though a short phase (I look back and now it seems short
but I'm sure at the time it seems an eternity) where he would yell
something like " I hate you " or "I don't want you for my parent
anymore", etc.-=-
Those are better information than "Shut up."
When my kids have said really negative things, when they were little, I would
ask "Why?"
A couple of times I told Kirby that if he knew another family he would rather
live with, I'd call and ask if he could stay there, and talking through just
a little of what he was really angry with (with the idea of moving elsewhere,
with his clothes and toys, and that I would give them money for food), he
would calm down and sometimes end up laughing. Sometimes I would recommend a
family he'd been hanging out with a lot. There weren't better places. The
other kids haven't had that frustration. I think it had to do with being oldest
and getting crowded as others came along.
-=- I told him that his words had hurt me,
etc. that was kind of a turning point for both of us, that he
started to understand his words could hurt and I started to
understand that he didn't realize what he was saying so I shouldn't
take it at face value, etc. -=-
Words have a reality, though, and pretending people didn't say what they said
is only a false courtesy. I've done it. I've ignored mean things an angry
friend (or husband) said because I knew he was venting in fury because of too
many circumstances at once.
Kirby is still the least content person in our family. The world is not as
comfortable for him as it is for some people. Still, he has lots of friends
and a busy life and he's healthy and active, but sometimes it seems there's a
sadness and a restlessness the other two don't have.
Sandra
<< My 6 yo occasionally tells me to "Shut up" and it is usually
during a situation where he feels like he would rather be doing
something else but is stuck with a mom who is visiting with a
friend, etc. >>
At the risk of sounding like a crazed 50's mom, I wouldn't have a child say
"shut up" to me any more than ONCE. "Occasionally" sounds like "all the time
to me, for something like that. But I categorize "shut up" with "eat shit
and die" and other really extreme, awful thigs that should only be said jokingly
among VERY close friends.
-=- Sometimes I reply with a simple - "I will be able to stop
talking in just a minute and then we can get going, Thank you for
being so patient with me"-=-
That's not simple. That's like 25 words or so. That's a speech.
I'm not saying "thank you" to ANY human who tells me to shut up.
-=-I may also
remind him of how I am patient for him while he is looking at toys
etc. so perhaps that this could be a time he could be patient for me
etc-=-
It's not about patience, which is hard for ANYONE to learn. It's about the
level of insult in the language.
-=-I think of it as the child not really understanding either the
polite way of saying something or perhaps he is at a loss for better
words but feels strongly about a situation. -=-
I feel strongly that if parents model subtle, courteous ways to get someone's
attention and to communicate, the children will learn that. But modelling
takes a while. In the meantime, I don't think "shut up" is a useful addition to
any conversation (except those in which the people are ending their
relationship).
-=- He went though a short phase (I look back and now it seems short
but I'm sure at the time it seems an eternity) where he would yell
something like " I hate you " or "I don't want you for my parent
anymore", etc.-=-
Those are better information than "Shut up."
When my kids have said really negative things, when they were little, I would
ask "Why?"
A couple of times I told Kirby that if he knew another family he would rather
live with, I'd call and ask if he could stay there, and talking through just
a little of what he was really angry with (with the idea of moving elsewhere,
with his clothes and toys, and that I would give them money for food), he
would calm down and sometimes end up laughing. Sometimes I would recommend a
family he'd been hanging out with a lot. There weren't better places. The
other kids haven't had that frustration. I think it had to do with being oldest
and getting crowded as others came along.
-=- I told him that his words had hurt me,
etc. that was kind of a turning point for both of us, that he
started to understand his words could hurt and I started to
understand that he didn't realize what he was saying so I shouldn't
take it at face value, etc. -=-
Words have a reality, though, and pretending people didn't say what they said
is only a false courtesy. I've done it. I've ignored mean things an angry
friend (or husband) said because I knew he was venting in fury because of too
many circumstances at once.
Kirby is still the least content person in our family. The world is not as
comfortable for him as it is for some people. Still, he has lots of friends
and a busy life and he's healthy and active, but sometimes it seems there's a
sadness and a restlessness the other two don't have.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/2004 10:30:15 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< My 6 yo occasionally tells me to "Shut up" and it is usually
during a situation where he feels like he would rather be doing
something else but is stuck with a mom who is visiting with a
friend, etc. >>
At the risk of sounding like a crazed 50's mom, I wouldn't have a child say
"shut up" to me any more than ONCE. "Occasionally" sounds like "all the
time
to me, for something like that. But I categorize "shut up" with "eat shit
and die" and other really extreme, awful thigs that should only be said
jokingly
among VERY close friends.
~~~
Depends on what you're used to, I guess.
When I was growing up, "shut up" was a common thing to say and hear. I
never knew anyone considered it extreme insult until I was in the Army at Ft.
Lee, VA, after boot camp. I said, "Shut up." to my bunk mate who just kept on
and on complaining about everything and she was being very, very irritating to
everyone around her. She was distraught over something, no one could tell
what it was, and she was being totally irrational. Complaining garners no
sympathy in the Army. We're all in it together, you know? No use complaining.
Just do what you have to do. So I just said, "Shut up." in a kind of "come
on, just get over it already' kind of way.
It was as if I had cursed her to hell. No one, not even my overly critical
mother, had ever indicated to me that "shut up" is an extreme insult. I'm
still surprised when someone says that it is.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< My 6 yo occasionally tells me to "Shut up" and it is usually
during a situation where he feels like he would rather be doing
something else but is stuck with a mom who is visiting with a
friend, etc. >>
At the risk of sounding like a crazed 50's mom, I wouldn't have a child say
"shut up" to me any more than ONCE. "Occasionally" sounds like "all the
time
to me, for something like that. But I categorize "shut up" with "eat shit
and die" and other really extreme, awful thigs that should only be said
jokingly
among VERY close friends.
~~~
Depends on what you're used to, I guess.
When I was growing up, "shut up" was a common thing to say and hear. I
never knew anyone considered it extreme insult until I was in the Army at Ft.
Lee, VA, after boot camp. I said, "Shut up." to my bunk mate who just kept on
and on complaining about everything and she was being very, very irritating to
everyone around her. She was distraught over something, no one could tell
what it was, and she was being totally irrational. Complaining garners no
sympathy in the Army. We're all in it together, you know? No use complaining.
Just do what you have to do. So I just said, "Shut up." in a kind of "come
on, just get over it already' kind of way.
It was as if I had cursed her to hell. No one, not even my overly critical
mother, had ever indicated to me that "shut up" is an extreme insult. I'm
still surprised when someone says that it is.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mozafamily
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
""At the risk of sounding like a crazed 50's mom, I wouldn't have a
child say
"shut up" to me any more than ONCE. "Occasionally" sounds like "all
the time
to me, for something like that. But I categorize "shut up" with "eat
shit
and die" and other really extreme, awful thigs that should only be
said jokingly
among VERY close friends.""
Occasionally in this case = 2X in last month. I think
perhaps "shut up" is a "button" with you? To me it is someone
saying - "I don't really want to hear you talk anymore" or "I'm
ready to go" but they just don't have better words at the time, it's
short and easy for them to remember, In reply I would like to model
politeness, like "In just a minute" or "This is important to me and
I'm going to have to ask you to be more patient awhile longer", etc
and then talk with them later about his choice of words. I could
tell him to fuck off but I think that would give the wrong
impression and he would probably tell me the same in return and then
we would just have other words that arn't the best choices anyways.
Probably the worst thing he has ever said was "I don't want you
for a mom anymore" and that he only said once because it made me cry
and he realized it hurt my feelings. I just don't give words that
kind of power especially when they come from a 6yo who isn't aware
of the impact. Now if my DS said it in a non-joking manner to me
then I would probably not take it as well, but luckily my dh is a
better model than that. I don't think this is a matter so much of
respect rather of learning more appropriate methods.
So what happens if the child says it more than once?? That sounds
like a mother with a newborn saying "my child is never going to cuss
or hit me, I won't let them!"
mozafamily
Now if my DS said it in a non-joking manner to me
then I would probably not take it as well, but luckily my dh is a
better model than that. I don't think this is a matter so much of
respect rather of learning more appropriate methods.
I put DS and I meant DH (my husband) - Sorry for any confusion.
--- In [email protected], "mozafamily"
<mozafamily@y...> wrote:
then I would probably not take it as well, but luckily my dh is a
better model than that. I don't think this is a matter so much of
respect rather of learning more appropriate methods.
I put DS and I meant DH (my husband) - Sorry for any confusion.
--- In [email protected], "mozafamily"
<mozafamily@y...> wrote:
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/04 10:44:49 AM, mozafamily@... writes:
<< So what happens if the child says it more than once?? That sounds
like a mother with a newborn saying "my child is never going to cuss
or hit me, I won't let them!" >>
I have a friend who told me Kirby was going to grow up to hit me, because I
didn't spank him when he was little. Interesting "logic."
We eventually quit having any contact with each other at all. I heard from
mutual friends that her teenager DID hit her when he was older, and he was
spanked plenty.
If children have never been told "shut up" and if when the parents heard
others say it (in person, on TV, whatever) the parents had said, "That's not very
nice to say," then why would the child want to use the phrase "shut up"?
And if a child say something really mean and the mom makes plain that it was
too mean to say, especially in front of someone else, it would take a pretty
bad relationship or some serious hostility toward the parent for the child to
do the same harsh thing again, in my experience.
"Can we go now?" is what my kids would say if they wanted to go. Not "shut
up."
I think there's a profound difference.
Now that they're older, they might point at a clock or gesture where the
other person can't see me, or come and hold my hand, or ask for the car keys to
start loading the car. I think they act that way because that's the way we've
treated them.
Sandra
<< So what happens if the child says it more than once?? That sounds
like a mother with a newborn saying "my child is never going to cuss
or hit me, I won't let them!" >>
I have a friend who told me Kirby was going to grow up to hit me, because I
didn't spank him when he was little. Interesting "logic."
We eventually quit having any contact with each other at all. I heard from
mutual friends that her teenager DID hit her when he was older, and he was
spanked plenty.
If children have never been told "shut up" and if when the parents heard
others say it (in person, on TV, whatever) the parents had said, "That's not very
nice to say," then why would the child want to use the phrase "shut up"?
And if a child say something really mean and the mom makes plain that it was
too mean to say, especially in front of someone else, it would take a pretty
bad relationship or some serious hostility toward the parent for the child to
do the same harsh thing again, in my experience.
"Can we go now?" is what my kids would say if they wanted to go. Not "shut
up."
I think there's a profound difference.
Now that they're older, they might point at a clock or gesture where the
other person can't see me, or come and hold my hand, or ask for the car keys to
start loading the car. I think they act that way because that's the way we've
treated them.
Sandra
mozafamily
I just think it has not sunk in with my son that "Shut up" isn't
the most appropriate thing to say, he hears it on TV cartoons often.
Yes we talk about it but we also talk about a lot of things - many
of which arn't learned in just one instance, most are learned over
time. So I'm just saying that I'm not going to jump all over my son
for picking the words "shut up", that may even make him think his
opinion doesn't matter or perhaps he shouldn't experiment with any
new words with mommy. Also if I tell him that a word "isn't very
nice to say" then what if he just isn't feeling "very nice" at the
time he said it? He could say it knowingly that he wasn't being nice
because of some other issue intirely! In my opinion it is better to
talk about things rather than just pick out certain words that my
son isn't "allowed" to say. I know my son isn't perfect (I'm
certainly not) and I know he is going to make occasional poor
choices in his words or actions and I feel it is more my job to
model, show him a better way, or talk about it rather than it is to
degrade or limit him.
You said "Can we go now?" is what my kids would say if they wanted
to go. Not "shut
knowing one saying is more appropriate.
You said: > If children have never been told "shut up" and if when
the parents heard
it's frequent use on TV is more overwhelming than the parent's
stating the word isn't nice? I'm sure there could be many other
reasons - why do most people cuss in general even theough it's "not
nice"?
Also you didn't actually answer the question - So what happens if
the child says it more than once?? Isn't that limiting your child
and isn't part of unschooling not limiting your child? (Not that I
ever wish for your child to tell you to "shut up" - I'm just trying
to understand what you're saying)
the most appropriate thing to say, he hears it on TV cartoons often.
Yes we talk about it but we also talk about a lot of things - many
of which arn't learned in just one instance, most are learned over
time. So I'm just saying that I'm not going to jump all over my son
for picking the words "shut up", that may even make him think his
opinion doesn't matter or perhaps he shouldn't experiment with any
new words with mommy. Also if I tell him that a word "isn't very
nice to say" then what if he just isn't feeling "very nice" at the
time he said it? He could say it knowingly that he wasn't being nice
because of some other issue intirely! In my opinion it is better to
talk about things rather than just pick out certain words that my
son isn't "allowed" to say. I know my son isn't perfect (I'm
certainly not) and I know he is going to make occasional poor
choices in his words or actions and I feel it is more my job to
model, show him a better way, or talk about it rather than it is to
degrade or limit him.
You said "Can we go now?" is what my kids would say if they wanted
to go. Not "shut
> up."Not in my opinion - there is only a slight difference of the child
> I think there's a profound difference.
>
knowing one saying is more appropriate.
You said: > If children have never been told "shut up" and if when
the parents heard
> others say it (in person, on TV, whatever) the parents hadsaid, "That's not very
> nice to say," then why would the child want to use thephrase "shut up"?
>Perhaps the child couldn't think of what else to say? Perhaps
it's frequent use on TV is more overwhelming than the parent's
stating the word isn't nice? I'm sure there could be many other
reasons - why do most people cuss in general even theough it's "not
nice"?
Also you didn't actually answer the question - So what happens if
the child says it more than once?? Isn't that limiting your child
and isn't part of unschooling not limiting your child? (Not that I
ever wish for your child to tell you to "shut up" - I'm just trying
to understand what you're saying)
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/4/04 10:44:49 AM, mozafamily@y... writes:
>
> << So what happens if the child says it more than once?? That
sounds
>
> like a mother with a newborn saying "my child is never going to
cuss
>
> or hit me, I won't let them!" >>
>
>
> I have a friend who told me Kirby was going to grow up to hit me,
because I
> didn't spank him when he was little. Interesting "logic."
>
> We eventually quit having any contact with each other at all. I
heard from
> mutual friends that her teenager DID hit her when he was older,
and he was
> spanked plenty.
>
> If children have never been told "shut up" and if when the parents
heard
> others say it (in person, on TV, whatever) the parents had
said, "That's not very
> nice to say," then why would the child want to use the
phrase "shut up"?
>
> And if a child say something really mean and the mom makes plain
that it was
> too mean to say, especially in front of someone else, it would
take a pretty
> bad relationship or some serious hostility toward the parent for
the child to
> do the same harsh thing again, in my experience.
>
> "Can we go now?" is what my kids would say if they wanted to go.
Not "shut
> up."
> I think there's a profound difference.
>
> Now that they're older, they might point at a clock or gesture
where the
> other person can't see me, or come and hold my hand, or ask for
the car keys to
> start loading the car. I think they act that way because that's
the way we've
> treated them.
>
> Sandra
Gold Standard
>>My son, Liam, was born intense. At about 15 months he started throwinghimself down on the ground, kicking and screaming, >>when things were not as
he needed them to be.
Sounds like he really needed to let it out!
>>he would never let me touch or console him. I would just sit with him,feeling so helpless, until he was done and would
>>come up and finally snuggle and nurse with me. But, it was always on histerms, and if I tried to sing, speak softly, or
>>touch him he would loose it even more. This continued until he was intohis 3's (peaking between 15 months-3 yrs and then
>>tapering off until he was around 4).This sounds like my oldest son Andrew (15). He was "tactile defensive" and
his cues for what he needed were MUCH different from my other children. He
was often inconsolable as a baby, and my instinct to cuddle and nurse him
was the opposite of what he wanted. He nursed for hunger, but did not
usually seek it out for comfort. It was very confusing and disheartening to
me. My earth momma ego was definitely bruised :) He was my first, so I
didn't have comparisons at the time except for the babies I had worked with
before, which is much different from having your own. He was eventually
diagnosed with high-functioning autism later on, when we wanted to get some
services from the state. It was very helpful to look it up on the internet
and get lots of information of things people had experienced and what helped
their children. Ultimately though, I think that there are a myriad of
different personality types, and the diagnoses are often a way to see how
some of those personalities do or don't fit into the box called "public
school system". But I digress :)
>>his physical aggression (though never really taken out on anyone else,just with himself) turned to verbal aggression with >>family members when
upset.
I would suggest that you not allow him to hurt himself as well as not
hurting others. Intervening so that he hits a pillow instead of himself, or
whatever else gets that abuse off of him, shows that you care enough for him
to not get hurt, while still recognizing that he has these feelings and they
need to come out somewhere safe.
As far as verbally abusing family members, I think you have to stop that.
And when you do, be ready to take the heat until he gets it out of his
system. It is actually a great opportunity for him to get to the core, and
may be exactly what he is asking for by behaving this way.
>>Also, getting him away and focusing attention ON HIM when (or ideallyright before he melts down) is ideal.
I think this is a great idea. I have four children, and for a long time my
husband and I scheduled a "special time" each week with each child, a one-on
one time when they could do whatever they wanted, say whatever they wanted
and have our full loving attention. This was a transformative experience for
all of us. They sometimes stored up their hurts or excitements for that time
alone with one of us. It would be great if we could give that kind of
attention all the time, but with the logistics of life, it doesn't always
happen. Having a time that they could count on gave them an ability to hold
their frustrations for a time that was safe, and saved some "victims" of
their bad feelings. Their behavior outside of that special time became more
caring and confident.
>>My main struggle is my natural inclination is to focus on the victim, andI'm usually juggling the younger children at the >>same time.
Yes, this is a struggle! I think your inclination to help the victim is a
good one, and if you only have ability in the moment to take care of one,
then taking care of the victim is probably the way to go. If that is what
happens however, make sure to get back as soon as you can to your son. As
you said, he is in need too, and helping him helps the victims.
>>I'm trying different things, and most importantly my heart is there withhim trying to help in ways that I know how. I KNOW >>he knows this and that
is most important.
>>I've always felt that Liam was born with such a great Spirit and has had abit of a harder time adjusting to this earthly >>world than some others
have. I do CHOOSE to always see Liam surrounded by Light and beauty and for
the wonderful, creative, >>powerful person/soul that he is.
That Liam is one lucky dude to have you as a mom!
Jacki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
J. Stauffer
<<<< Isn't that limiting your child
different in every relationship. If a child or an adult is causing harm and
we don't limit it, the child or adult may not understand that they are
causing harm, may believe that the harm they are causing is ok, etc...
I think the unschooling issue comes in with HOW you limit. If any child or
any adult told me to "shut up", I wouldn't threaten to hit them, I wouldn't
threaten to take away priviledges.....I would say "That was a very rude
thing to say to me. I don't want you to talk to me that way. I take it you
are ready to go."
If it continued, I would take a look not at what was being said....but WHY
it was being said after I expressed to the other person that I didn't like
it at all. I would wait for a quiet time, a cuddle time, and ask them why,
listen without judging and see if we could figure out the problem.
Julie S.
> and isn't part of unschooling not limiting your child? >>>>I don't agree. There are limits in any relationship. And those limits are
different in every relationship. If a child or an adult is causing harm and
we don't limit it, the child or adult may not understand that they are
causing harm, may believe that the harm they are causing is ok, etc...
I think the unschooling issue comes in with HOW you limit. If any child or
any adult told me to "shut up", I wouldn't threaten to hit them, I wouldn't
threaten to take away priviledges.....I would say "That was a very rude
thing to say to me. I don't want you to talk to me that way. I take it you
are ready to go."
If it continued, I would take a look not at what was being said....but WHY
it was being said after I expressed to the other person that I didn't like
it at all. I would wait for a quiet time, a cuddle time, and ask them why,
listen without judging and see if we could figure out the problem.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "mozafamily" <mozafamily@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 1:05 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: children hurting with their words
>
>
> I just think it has not sunk in with my son that "Shut up" isn't
> the most appropriate thing to say, he hears it on TV cartoons often.
> Yes we talk about it but we also talk about a lot of things - many
> of which arn't learned in just one instance, most are learned over
> time. So I'm just saying that I'm not going to jump all over my son
> for picking the words "shut up", that may even make him think his
> opinion doesn't matter or perhaps he shouldn't experiment with any
> new words with mommy. Also if I tell him that a word "isn't very
> nice to say" then what if he just isn't feeling "very nice" at the
> time he said it? He could say it knowingly that he wasn't being nice
> because of some other issue intirely! In my opinion it is better to
> talk about things rather than just pick out certain words that my
> son isn't "allowed" to say. I know my son isn't perfect (I'm
> certainly not) and I know he is going to make occasional poor
> choices in his words or actions and I feel it is more my job to
> model, show him a better way, or talk about it rather than it is to
> degrade or limit him.
>
> You said "Can we go now?" is what my kids would say if they wanted
> to go. Not "shut
> > up."
> > I think there's a profound difference.
> >
>
> Not in my opinion - there is only a slight difference of the child
> knowing one saying is more appropriate.
>
> You said: > If children have never been told "shut up" and if when
> the parents heard
> > others say it (in person, on TV, whatever) the parents had
> said, "That's not very
> > nice to say," then why would the child want to use the
> phrase "shut up"?
> >
>
> Perhaps the child couldn't think of what else to say? Perhaps
> it's frequent use on TV is more overwhelming than the parent's
> stating the word isn't nice? I'm sure there could be many other
> reasons - why do most people cuss in general even theough it's "not
> nice"?
> Also you didn't actually answer the question - So what happens if
> the child says it more than once?? Isn't that limiting your child
> and isn't part of unschooling not limiting your child? (Not that I
> ever wish for your child to tell you to "shut up" - I'm just trying
> to understand what you're saying)
>
>
> --- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 10/4/04 10:44:49 AM, mozafamily@y... writes:
> >
> > << So what happens if the child says it more than once?? That
> sounds
> >
> > like a mother with a newborn saying "my child is never going to
> cuss
> >
> > or hit me, I won't let them!" >>
> >
> >
> > I have a friend who told me Kirby was going to grow up to hit me,
> because I
> > didn't spank him when he was little. Interesting "logic."
> >
> > We eventually quit having any contact with each other at all. I
> heard from
> > mutual friends that her teenager DID hit her when he was older,
> and he was
> > spanked plenty.
> >
> > If children have never been told "shut up" and if when the parents
> heard
> > others say it (in person, on TV, whatever) the parents had
> said, "That's not very
> > nice to say," then why would the child want to use the
> phrase "shut up"?
> >
> > And if a child say something really mean and the mom makes plain
> that it was
> > too mean to say, especially in front of someone else, it would
> take a pretty
> > bad relationship or some serious hostility toward the parent for
> the child to
> > do the same harsh thing again, in my experience.
> >
> > "Can we go now?" is what my kids would say if they wanted to go.
> Not "shut
> > up."
> > I think there's a profound difference.
> >
> > Now that they're older, they might point at a clock or gesture
> where the
> > other person can't see me, or come and hold my hand, or ask for
> the car keys to
> > start loading the car. I think they act that way because that's
> the way we've
> > treated them.
> >
> > Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/04 12:06:34 PM, mozafamily@... writes:
<< In my opinion it is better to
talk about things rather than just pick out certain words that my
son isn't "allowed" to say. >>
I agree absolutely.
If the principle is to use nicer words when we have a choice, then it's not a
rule about what is okay to say.
But if a kid says "shut up" and the mom says "thank you for being patient,"
it's going to be confusing to the child, I think.
-=-I feel it is more my job to
model, show him a better way, or talk about it rather than it is to
degrade or limit him. -=-
I think talking about it is wonderful, and if it's clear to him that some
ways of talking are painful to his target and don't make him as good a guy as he
would probably like to be either, he will probably want to limit himself, for
the good of all involved.
-=-You said "Can we go now?" is what my kids would say if they wanted
to go. Not "shut
If I ask my husband to do something and he says "I can't right now" that's
real information, and he's treating me like another human. If he says "Shut up"
or "screw you" there's a profound difference not only in the words, but in
the attitude it shows toward the situation and toward me and toward our
relationship.
Kids are old enough to understand situations and relationships pretty
earlier. Some kids are, anyway. Is it possible this is another interpersonal
intelligence issue?
-=- Also you didn't actually answer the question - So what happens if
the child says it more than once??-=-
I don't know, because it doesn't happen here. My kids really want to be
nice.
I talk to them. We talk about others' behavior (others in real life and
others on movies, in songs, in books). They LIKE for other people to be nice to
them. They're analytical about what is nice and what isn't.
-=- Isn't that limiting your child
and isn't part of unschooling not limiting your child?-=-
The principle of making good choices isn't a limit. It's a direction and a
principle.
Unschooling can't possibly operate without values, direction and principles,
can it?
Sandra
<< In my opinion it is better to
talk about things rather than just pick out certain words that my
son isn't "allowed" to say. >>
I agree absolutely.
If the principle is to use nicer words when we have a choice, then it's not a
rule about what is okay to say.
But if a kid says "shut up" and the mom says "thank you for being patient,"
it's going to be confusing to the child, I think.
-=-I feel it is more my job to
model, show him a better way, or talk about it rather than it is to
degrade or limit him. -=-
I think talking about it is wonderful, and if it's clear to him that some
ways of talking are painful to his target and don't make him as good a guy as he
would probably like to be either, he will probably want to limit himself, for
the good of all involved.
-=-You said "Can we go now?" is what my kids would say if they wanted
to go. Not "shut
> up."-=-Not in my opinion - -=-
> I think there's a profound difference.
>
If I ask my husband to do something and he says "I can't right now" that's
real information, and he's treating me like another human. If he says "Shut up"
or "screw you" there's a profound difference not only in the words, but in
the attitude it shows toward the situation and toward me and toward our
relationship.
Kids are old enough to understand situations and relationships pretty
earlier. Some kids are, anyway. Is it possible this is another interpersonal
intelligence issue?
-=- Also you didn't actually answer the question - So what happens if
the child says it more than once??-=-
I don't know, because it doesn't happen here. My kids really want to be
nice.
I talk to them. We talk about others' behavior (others in real life and
others on movies, in songs, in books). They LIKE for other people to be nice to
them. They're analytical about what is nice and what isn't.
-=- Isn't that limiting your child
and isn't part of unschooling not limiting your child?-=-
The principle of making good choices isn't a limit. It's a direction and a
principle.
Unschooling can't possibly operate without values, direction and principles,
can it?
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/4/04 1:51:34 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< I would wait for a quiet time, a cuddle time, and ask them why,
listen without judging and see if we could figure out the problem. >>
"Why did you say that?"
"Why did you do that?"
"Why were you so angry?"
Those have been some of the best conversation starters EVER here. And the
kids have all asked me those questions too, when I've seemed short tempered or
cranky. And I take it as an honest, concerned question and we talk.
Sandra
<< I would wait for a quiet time, a cuddle time, and ask them why,
listen without judging and see if we could figure out the problem. >>
"Why did you say that?"
"Why did you do that?"
"Why were you so angry?"
Those have been some of the best conversation starters EVER here. And the
kids have all asked me those questions too, when I've seemed short tempered or
cranky. And I take it as an honest, concerned question and we talk.
Sandra
Gold Standard
>>"Why did you say that?"tempered or
>>"Why did you do that?"
>>"Why were you so angry?"
>>Those have been some of the best conversation starters EVER here. And the
>>kids have all asked me those questions too, when I've seemed short
>>cranky. And I take it as an honest, concerned question and we talk.This raises a question for me. In past reading, I think from the book "How
>>Sandra
to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk", using the word
"why" is discouraged. It's something about causing defensiveness in the
listener. They recommend rephrasing to something like "What caused you to
behave that way?" or "What was it that made you say that?". I'm sure the
speaker's intent has a lot to do with it. A tone of really wanting to know
as opposed to a condescending tone I imagine is a key. Anybody have more
info about this?
Jacki
Kristina Kahney
>>>>This raises a question for me. In past reading, I think from the book "Howto Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk", using the word
"why" is discouraged.<<<<<
I don't have any other "information" so to speak about this, but my experience with my children is the minute the word "WHY" comes out they are very defensive. I am as well. I don't like it when my husband comes to me and says "why did you do that?" "what were you thinking?"...it's just a personal thing. I would much rather say to my children "how were you feeling when such-and-such happened" or "what was going on when you did ..." Just rewording the statements slightly make a difference for me.
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<I don't have any other "information" so to speak about this, but my
experience with my children is the minute the word "WHY" comes out they are
very defensive. I am as well. I don't like it when my husband comes to me
and says "why did you do that?" "what were you thinking?"...it's just a
personal thing. I would much rather say to my children "how were you feeling
when such-and-such happened" or "what was going on when you did ..." Just
rewording the statements slightly make a difference for me. >>>>
When I ask Jayn why she did something, or seemed to be feeling something, it
has to be a genuine question. That is I really want to understand why, and
help her to articulate why. Avoiding irritated statements masquerading as
questions like the "What were you thinking?" example above really is key.
They still pop out from me sometimes in the heat of the moment. But the mood
and manner and inflexion is very different in a quiet moment of reflective
conversation.
Robyn L. Coburn
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experience with my children is the minute the word "WHY" comes out they are
very defensive. I am as well. I don't like it when my husband comes to me
and says "why did you do that?" "what were you thinking?"...it's just a
personal thing. I would much rather say to my children "how were you feeling
when such-and-such happened" or "what was going on when you did ..." Just
rewording the statements slightly make a difference for me. >>>>
When I ask Jayn why she did something, or seemed to be feeling something, it
has to be a genuine question. That is I really want to understand why, and
help her to articulate why. Avoiding irritated statements masquerading as
questions like the "What were you thinking?" example above really is key.
They still pop out from me sometimes in the heat of the moment. But the mood
and manner and inflexion is very different in a quiet moment of reflective
conversation.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004
Gold Standard
Kristina your comment sparked my memory (glad to know that still can happen
<g>)of another "key" communication idea. I think I got this one from the
"How to Talk..." book as well. Rather than asking questions, which most
children are bombarded with, make a statement that recognizes something in
the moment, and then don't say anything. Stay quiet until the child says
something. Oftentimes they are thinking and need more time to answer than we
are used to giving (well, maybe not so much the people on this list).
Something like, "I noticed you said 'shut up' to me". Or "I'm thinking you
aren't feeling well right now". An honest statement free from blame or other
yucky stuff often invokes an honest response from a child.
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: Kristina Kahney [mailto:kkahney@...]
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 8:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: children hurting with their words
to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk", using the word
"why" is discouraged.<<<<<
I don't have any other "information" so to speak about this, but my
experience with my children is the minute the word "WHY" comes out they are
very defensive. I am as well. I don't like it when my husband comes to me
and says "why did you do that?" "what were you thinking?"...it's just a
personal thing. I would much rather say to my children "how were you feeling
when such-and-such happened" or "what was going on when you did ..." Just
rewording the statements slightly make a difference for me.
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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<g>)of another "key" communication idea. I think I got this one from the
"How to Talk..." book as well. Rather than asking questions, which most
children are bombarded with, make a statement that recognizes something in
the moment, and then don't say anything. Stay quiet until the child says
something. Oftentimes they are thinking and need more time to answer than we
are used to giving (well, maybe not so much the people on this list).
Something like, "I noticed you said 'shut up' to me". Or "I'm thinking you
aren't feeling well right now". An honest statement free from blame or other
yucky stuff often invokes an honest response from a child.
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: Kristina Kahney [mailto:kkahney@...]
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 8:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: children hurting with their words
>>>>This raises a question for me. In past reading, I think from the book"How
to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk", using the word
"why" is discouraged.<<<<<
I don't have any other "information" so to speak about this, but my
experience with my children is the minute the word "WHY" comes out they are
very defensive. I am as well. I don't like it when my husband comes to me
and says "why did you do that?" "what were you thinking?"...it's just a
personal thing. I would much rather say to my children "how were you feeling
when such-and-such happened" or "what was going on when you did ..." Just
rewording the statements slightly make a difference for me.
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/5/04 4:39:44 AM, dezigna@... writes:
<< my
experience with my children is the minute the word "WHY" comes out they are
very defensive. I am as well. I don't like it when my husband comes to me
and says "why did you do that?" "what were you thinking?" >>
<<But the mood
and manner and inflexion is very different in a quiet moment of reflective
conversation.>>
Right. Not the accusational "What the **@#!! were you thinking!?"
but at worst a later, quiet "Jeez, Holly. Didn't you see her face? Maybe
you could've cut her some slack. Why were you so angry with her?" And
ideally, "What was going on that you were so angry today?"
When I have those conversations it's not to review and amend what just
happened. It's to help them be aware for future instances, and to see what tools
they had but forgot to use.
Sandra
<< my
experience with my children is the minute the word "WHY" comes out they are
very defensive. I am as well. I don't like it when my husband comes to me
and says "why did you do that?" "what were you thinking?" >>
<<But the mood
and manner and inflexion is very different in a quiet moment of reflective
conversation.>>
Right. Not the accusational "What the **@#!! were you thinking!?"
but at worst a later, quiet "Jeez, Holly. Didn't you see her face? Maybe
you could've cut her some slack. Why were you so angry with her?" And
ideally, "What was going on that you were so angry today?"
When I have those conversations it's not to review and amend what just
happened. It's to help them be aware for future instances, and to see what tools
they had but forgot to use.
Sandra
Kristina Kahney
>> Rather than asking questions, which mostchildren are bombarded with, make a statement that recognizes something in
the moment, and then don't say anything. Stay quiet until the child says
something. <<
Thanks Jaki,
I do like this idea, and I will remember to try it more. With my son, any blame at all can send him off. Need to pull out the books and re-read! LOL!
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristina Kahney
Sorry, Jacki, just realized after I sent the post that I misspelled your name!
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
No problem!
Thanks for thinking of it!
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: Kristina Kahney [mailto:kkahney@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 8:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: children hurting with their words
Sorry, Jacki, just realized after I sent the post that I misspelled your
name!
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for thinking of it!
Jacki
-----Original Message-----
From: Kristina Kahney [mailto:kkahney@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2004 8:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: children hurting with their words
Sorry, Jacki, just realized after I sent the post that I misspelled your
name!
Kristina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]