Re: [AlwaysLearning] negative comments
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/27/2004 2:45:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
"When I made the suggestion about saying something to the effect
of, “If you want to have your teeth fall out of your head, that’s
fine, but it’s unfriendly to make the rest of us smell a plaque-
filled mouth,†I did not realize that it would be taken as something
so rude"
When I read this, I thought you were being humorous. In fact, it was in
response to my request for help with my bad breathed :) son who stopped
brushing. I never thought you meant to be rude. I think that email is easily
misinterpreted, since it doesn't have those nuances of inflection in our
voices, facial expressions and body language. And some people may think that
literal words can be harmful, no matter what the nuances.
I was called on using the term "psycho-like tantrums" which was also said in
fun, with humor being my intention feeling like a had a camaraderie with a
group of parents who had struggled with their children's emotions as I had.
I thought it would inspire a response of something like, "yes, those
tantrums have made me want to just scream" (even though we don't). And maybe
some did think that. I don't know. What I got was something similar to what
you got. So now I try to be very accurate in my communication here, for fear
of misinterpretation, or worse.
Accuracy is very very important here. Words are all we have to go on since
this is a written medium.
There are many words our culture uses in relation to children, some of which
have become so ingrained that we no longer realize that they may be harmful to
others, but also to our own view of others.
Some members here (I would think many, since I have been on and read this
list continually since it's birth) try to point out that these words may not
necessarily be BAD but yet are not helping families to move forward to a place of
mutual respect. Choosing words that are uplifting and positive, words that
encourage trust and faith in a relationship, are very important when it comes to
unschooling/mindful parenting. Sometimes we don't realize when others are
hurt by things we say, especially when the receiver of those words is able to
hide their feelings.
Life's challenges are not supposed to paralyze you;
They're supposed to help you discover who you are.
~Bernice Johnson Reagon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
"When I made the suggestion about saying something to the effect
of, “If you want to have your teeth fall out of your head, that’s
fine, but it’s unfriendly to make the rest of us smell a plaque-
filled mouth,†I did not realize that it would be taken as something
so rude"
When I read this, I thought you were being humorous. In fact, it was in
response to my request for help with my bad breathed :) son who stopped
brushing. I never thought you meant to be rude. I think that email is easily
misinterpreted, since it doesn't have those nuances of inflection in our
voices, facial expressions and body language. And some people may think that
literal words can be harmful, no matter what the nuances.
I was called on using the term "psycho-like tantrums" which was also said in
fun, with humor being my intention feeling like a had a camaraderie with a
group of parents who had struggled with their children's emotions as I had.
I thought it would inspire a response of something like, "yes, those
tantrums have made me want to just scream" (even though we don't). And maybe
some did think that. I don't know. What I got was something similar to what
you got. So now I try to be very accurate in my communication here, for fear
of misinterpretation, or worse.
Accuracy is very very important here. Words are all we have to go on since
this is a written medium.
There are many words our culture uses in relation to children, some of which
have become so ingrained that we no longer realize that they may be harmful to
others, but also to our own view of others.
Some members here (I would think many, since I have been on and read this
list continually since it's birth) try to point out that these words may not
necessarily be BAD but yet are not helping families to move forward to a place of
mutual respect. Choosing words that are uplifting and positive, words that
encourage trust and faith in a relationship, are very important when it comes to
unschooling/mindful parenting. Sometimes we don't realize when others are
hurt by things we say, especially when the receiver of those words is able to
hide their feelings.
Life's challenges are not supposed to paralyze you;
They're supposed to help you discover who you are.
~Bernice Johnson Reagon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 8/27/04 5:30 PM, Earthmomma67@... at Earthmomma67@... wrote:
Someone recently posted this quote by Wayne Dyer on the Unschoolingbasics
list:
unschooling. And a catch sentence for the discussion lists (AlwaysLearning,
UnschoolingDiscussion, unschoolingbasics and the Unschooling.com boards)
that exist to help people get unschooling.
While there may be members who would agree their kids have "psycho tantrums"
the lists aren't a place to trade sympathy for those feelings, but a place
to ask how others get beyond those feelings to a better place.
I think negative phrases and thoughts about our kids are used for
self-protection. When our kids are being less than perfect, we can feel
we're doing something wrong, that their behavior is a reflection on us and
our skills as a parent. But negative phrases are a way of separating "them"
from "us". Kids become "other", that is, other than us, other than (adult)
human. So it becomes okay for "them" to act in bizarre ways and for us not
to be able to do anything about it. And it's even better when we can get
agreement from other parents that, yes, kids are "other", they're almost
alien creatures in their behavior.
The lists aren't about stuffing down guilt or about shrugging off guilt.
They're about getting to a better place: seeing kids as fellow humans. Kids
may react to situations in ways that would be bizarre reactions for adults
but the emotions behind the reactions are pure human emotions. We can feel
we'd never whine about not getting to watch a TV show, we'd never have a
melt down in the middle of a store. But if we turn our thougts around to
imagine a situation where we *would* whine or we *would* have a meltdown,
then it's easier to offer the comfort and attentiveness they're asking for
and to recognize when we're causing it by ignoring the subtle signs of build
up.
Joyce
> Some members here (I would think many, since I have been on and read this listYes, what Elissa said.
> continually since it's birth) try to point out that these words may not
> necessarily be BAD but yet are not helping families to move forward to a place
> of mutual respect. Choosing words that are uplifting and positive, words that
> encourage trust and faith in a relationship, are very important when it comes
> to unschooling/mindful parenting.
Someone recently posted this quote by Wayne Dyer on the Unschoolingbasics
list:
>> "If you change the way you look at things; the things you look atWhich could be a catch phrase -- or catch sentence ;-) -- for getting
>> will change."
unschooling. And a catch sentence for the discussion lists (AlwaysLearning,
UnschoolingDiscussion, unschoolingbasics and the Unschooling.com boards)
that exist to help people get unschooling.
While there may be members who would agree their kids have "psycho tantrums"
the lists aren't a place to trade sympathy for those feelings, but a place
to ask how others get beyond those feelings to a better place.
I think negative phrases and thoughts about our kids are used for
self-protection. When our kids are being less than perfect, we can feel
we're doing something wrong, that their behavior is a reflection on us and
our skills as a parent. But negative phrases are a way of separating "them"
from "us". Kids become "other", that is, other than us, other than (adult)
human. So it becomes okay for "them" to act in bizarre ways and for us not
to be able to do anything about it. And it's even better when we can get
agreement from other parents that, yes, kids are "other", they're almost
alien creatures in their behavior.
The lists aren't about stuffing down guilt or about shrugging off guilt.
They're about getting to a better place: seeing kids as fellow humans. Kids
may react to situations in ways that would be bizarre reactions for adults
but the emotions behind the reactions are pure human emotions. We can feel
we'd never whine about not getting to watch a TV show, we'd never have a
melt down in the middle of a store. But if we turn our thougts around to
imagine a situation where we *would* whine or we *would* have a meltdown,
then it's easier to offer the comfort and attentiveness they're asking for
and to recognize when we're causing it by ignoring the subtle signs of build
up.
Joyce
Kathryn Balley
I think it's important to recognize that some words may be viewed as negative by some but as benign or merely descriptive by others. I think it would be a good idea if we decided to take it for granted that the members of this list are all dedicated to providing a loving, coercion-free learning environment for their children. With that in mind, it is unlikely that anyone posting here is thinking negatively of their children, but may use light-hearted phrasing in order to express concerns that are very serious for them.
Being the mother of very dramatic and dynamic children who, when in the throes of puberty and all of the hormonal and chemical imbalances that go along with that, have had what could accurately be described as "seemingly psychotic" outbursts (as they are so intense one would indeed wonder if there is some sort of psychosis at work there -- (and with my having two bipolar siblings, it is not out of the realm of possibility)) I have indeed struggled with finding a loving and kind way of helping my children to cope when they become emotionally overwhelmed. I don't find it negative or insulting to my children to refer to their behavior in these terms (I may not have thought to use that particular description myself, but I understood it when I read it.) Granted, it may not be to someone else's taste to refer to their children that way, in which case, a helpful response could be given using the sensitive writer's preferred terminology which could then give the first parent a new way of
referring to that particular behavior. This way, the IDEA is being discussed rather than the terminology.
So, back to the point of trying to be helpful: when your older child is having these struggles, you might try revisiting the successful techniques you used when they were toddlers and modifying and reapplying them now, i.e.: making sure they know they are being heard and that their position is respected, being gentle and consistent and available, etc. The transition through the teens is often very similar to the transition our children go through as little ones.
Best Wishes,
Kathryn
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Being the mother of very dramatic and dynamic children who, when in the throes of puberty and all of the hormonal and chemical imbalances that go along with that, have had what could accurately be described as "seemingly psychotic" outbursts (as they are so intense one would indeed wonder if there is some sort of psychosis at work there -- (and with my having two bipolar siblings, it is not out of the realm of possibility)) I have indeed struggled with finding a loving and kind way of helping my children to cope when they become emotionally overwhelmed. I don't find it negative or insulting to my children to refer to their behavior in these terms (I may not have thought to use that particular description myself, but I understood it when I read it.) Granted, it may not be to someone else's taste to refer to their children that way, in which case, a helpful response could be given using the sensitive writer's preferred terminology which could then give the first parent a new way of
referring to that particular behavior. This way, the IDEA is being discussed rather than the terminology.
So, back to the point of trying to be helpful: when your older child is having these struggles, you might try revisiting the successful techniques you used when they were toddlers and modifying and reapplying them now, i.e.: making sure they know they are being heard and that their position is respected, being gentle and consistent and available, etc. The transition through the teens is often very similar to the transition our children go through as little ones.
Best Wishes,
Kathryn
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gold Standard
"I think it's important to recognize that some words may be viewed as
negative by some but as benign or merely descriptive by others. I think it
would be a good idea if we decided to take it for granted that the members
of this list are all dedicated to providing a loving, coercion-free learning
environment for their children. With that in mind, it is unlikely that
anyone posting here is thinking negatively of their children, but may use
light-hearted phrasing in order to express concerns that are very serious
for them.
"Being the mother of very dramatic and dynamic children who, when in the
throes of puberty and all of the hormonal and chemical imbalances that go
along with that, have had what could accurately be described as "seemingly
psychotic" outbursts (as they are so intense one would indeed wonder if
there is some sort of psychosis at work there -- (and with my having two
bipolar siblings, it is not out of the realm of possibility)) I have indeed
struggled with finding a loving and kind way of helping my children to cope
when they become emotionally overwhelmed. I don't find it negative or
insulting to my children to refer to their behavior in these terms (I may
not have thought to use that particular description myself, but I understood
it when I read it.) Granted, it may not be to someone else's taste to refer
to their children that way, in which case, a helpful response could be given
using the sensitive writer's preferred terminology which could then give the
first parent a new way of
referring to that particular behavior. This way, the IDEA is being
discussed rather than the terminology.
"So, back to the point of trying to be helpful: when your older child is
having these struggles, you might try revisiting the successful techniques
you used when they were toddlers and modifying and reapplying them now,
i.e.: making sure they know they are being heard and that their position is
respected, being gentle and consistent and available, etc. The transition
through the teens is often very similar to the transition our children go
through as little ones."
Best Wishes,
Kathryn
I was composing a response to this thread with a similar message, but I just
erased it because you said it so well Kathryn. Thank you! I am glad to see
that I'm not alone in encouraging us to respond to people's content, support
them as the intelligent parents that they are, and if the wording bothers
someone, give an alternative that they prefer, being self-responsible that
they have an issue with it, without the lecture. I would SOOO have preferred
someone to have said, "I understand what you are referring to. I am a little
sensitive to the using the word "psychotic" when referring to children's
behavior. Maybe strongly emotional says it better?" This would not have
changed my behavior in any way with my children, since I am very sensitive,
compassionate, and connected to them, and typically don't use any negative
terminology with them, but it would have made me be more careful with my
terminology on this list, out of respect for those who have issues with
whatever the term was. It's nice to know that someone understood what I
meant.
Jacki
negative by some but as benign or merely descriptive by others. I think it
would be a good idea if we decided to take it for granted that the members
of this list are all dedicated to providing a loving, coercion-free learning
environment for their children. With that in mind, it is unlikely that
anyone posting here is thinking negatively of their children, but may use
light-hearted phrasing in order to express concerns that are very serious
for them.
"Being the mother of very dramatic and dynamic children who, when in the
throes of puberty and all of the hormonal and chemical imbalances that go
along with that, have had what could accurately be described as "seemingly
psychotic" outbursts (as they are so intense one would indeed wonder if
there is some sort of psychosis at work there -- (and with my having two
bipolar siblings, it is not out of the realm of possibility)) I have indeed
struggled with finding a loving and kind way of helping my children to cope
when they become emotionally overwhelmed. I don't find it negative or
insulting to my children to refer to their behavior in these terms (I may
not have thought to use that particular description myself, but I understood
it when I read it.) Granted, it may not be to someone else's taste to refer
to their children that way, in which case, a helpful response could be given
using the sensitive writer's preferred terminology which could then give the
first parent a new way of
referring to that particular behavior. This way, the IDEA is being
discussed rather than the terminology.
"So, back to the point of trying to be helpful: when your older child is
having these struggles, you might try revisiting the successful techniques
you used when they were toddlers and modifying and reapplying them now,
i.e.: making sure they know they are being heard and that their position is
respected, being gentle and consistent and available, etc. The transition
through the teens is often very similar to the transition our children go
through as little ones."
Best Wishes,
Kathryn
I was composing a response to this thread with a similar message, but I just
erased it because you said it so well Kathryn. Thank you! I am glad to see
that I'm not alone in encouraging us to respond to people's content, support
them as the intelligent parents that they are, and if the wording bothers
someone, give an alternative that they prefer, being self-responsible that
they have an issue with it, without the lecture. I would SOOO have preferred
someone to have said, "I understand what you are referring to. I am a little
sensitive to the using the word "psychotic" when referring to children's
behavior. Maybe strongly emotional says it better?" This would not have
changed my behavior in any way with my children, since I am very sensitive,
compassionate, and connected to them, and typically don't use any negative
terminology with them, but it would have made me be more careful with my
terminology on this list, out of respect for those who have issues with
whatever the term was. It's nice to know that someone understood what I
meant.
Jacki
Fetteroll
on 8/28/04 7:47 PM, Kathryn Balley at kballey@... wrote:
not. It's a discussion group.
What we discuss are ideas. And words are used to express those ideas. For a
discussion group, it is *not* useful to assume that the words someone has
written don't mean what they appear to mean. If someone is asking for help,
and they realize from the responses they get that they've used words that
paint an inaccurate image of their problem, then they need to choose words
that will help people form a more accurate image. What is *not* helpful is
to defend the words they've used that painted the inaccurate picture.
And before there's more energy put into some false "group consensus" about
how the list should operate, it would make sense to wait for the list owner
(Sandra) to return from the conference.
Joyce
> I think it's important to recognize that some words may be viewed as negativeThis is true.
> by some but as benign or merely descriptive by others.
> I think it would be aIf this were a support group, that might be a useful suggestion. But it's
> good idea if we decided to take it for granted that the members of this list
> are all dedicated to providing a loving, coercion-free learning environment
> for their children.
not. It's a discussion group.
What we discuss are ideas. And words are used to express those ideas. For a
discussion group, it is *not* useful to assume that the words someone has
written don't mean what they appear to mean. If someone is asking for help,
and they realize from the responses they get that they've used words that
paint an inaccurate image of their problem, then they need to choose words
that will help people form a more accurate image. What is *not* helpful is
to defend the words they've used that painted the inaccurate picture.
And before there's more energy put into some false "group consensus" about
how the list should operate, it would make sense to wait for the list owner
(Sandra) to return from the conference.
Joyce