Dilemma
Tia Leschke
Some background:
We've always unschooled, at least as I understood it at the time. Except
for the one foray into insisting Lars do phonics to learn to read when he
was 12, and one period when he wanted to go to school and I insisted on
"playing school" for a couple of months so he'd know what he was getting
into, his learning has all been his choice. He's never chosen much that
would be considered academic, but I've been fine with that, seeing that
learning was happening even if it didn't look like school learning.
Since he was 7, he's been signed up with one of the public school distance
learning programs here in BC. The first 2 years, they just left us
completely alone, helping only if asked. Then the government wanted "proof"
that learning was taking place, and we had to send them info on what our
kids were doing. That was still fine. I wrote anecdotal reports of some of
the stuff we did, and they were happy with it. I kept Lars right out of
that process, never showing him the "report cards" the government insisted
they send us, and not asking him to do anything specific to please "them".
Two years ago the government wanted more, and after one year of "more"
(with me still shielding him from the process)we got out and into a much
more flexible program run by a private unschooling type school. For this
program we just had to log 25 hours a week of learning, and *anything* counted.
I thought it was great and was planning to go with the same program for the
coming year. (The plus is $1,000 to spend on almost anything remotely
educational. We got him a new computer last year.) Now he's just asked me
if he was going to be doing the same program this year. I told him there
was some question this last week about whether the school was going to
allowed to offer the program to high school aged students again this year
because the government figures they should be offering a diploma, with all
the huge changes to the program that would require. He asked me what would
be wrong with that, because he "hardly did anything last year".
It seems that the only reason he did anything academic last year was
because he "had to". I never told him to do academic things. I just asked
him every day what he *had* done and wrote it down. We counted all his bike
riding, all his sports, any movies he watched, anything he read,
conversations we had. I really wanted him to see that he was learning all
the time and didn't need to worry about "doing stuff" as he calls academic
learning. At one point I asked him to see if he could think of some
different things that he was doing anyway that he could write down. It was
more an exercise in seeing the learning happening, at least that's what I
thought at the time. He did actually do a bunch of academic stuff through
the year, but I thought it was because he was thinking ahead and wanted to
be able to get into whatever program he might want to enter in terms of
career. (I was thinking trades training, since he had shown so little
interest in any kind of book learning over the years.)
Now it seems that he doesn't believe he'll do anything without being made
to. I tried to point out how hard he works on all his sports stuff, because
he wants to, and that I assume he'll do academic stuff when he wants to
learn something (or needs a certain amount of math or reading and writing
ability to get into some program). He still doesn't believe that the
motivation can come from within. He clearly doesn't see unschooling the way
I do, and I don't know how to help him understand it. I'm not sure where to
go from here. Any thoughts?
Tia
We've always unschooled, at least as I understood it at the time. Except
for the one foray into insisting Lars do phonics to learn to read when he
was 12, and one period when he wanted to go to school and I insisted on
"playing school" for a couple of months so he'd know what he was getting
into, his learning has all been his choice. He's never chosen much that
would be considered academic, but I've been fine with that, seeing that
learning was happening even if it didn't look like school learning.
Since he was 7, he's been signed up with one of the public school distance
learning programs here in BC. The first 2 years, they just left us
completely alone, helping only if asked. Then the government wanted "proof"
that learning was taking place, and we had to send them info on what our
kids were doing. That was still fine. I wrote anecdotal reports of some of
the stuff we did, and they were happy with it. I kept Lars right out of
that process, never showing him the "report cards" the government insisted
they send us, and not asking him to do anything specific to please "them".
Two years ago the government wanted more, and after one year of "more"
(with me still shielding him from the process)we got out and into a much
more flexible program run by a private unschooling type school. For this
program we just had to log 25 hours a week of learning, and *anything* counted.
I thought it was great and was planning to go with the same program for the
coming year. (The plus is $1,000 to spend on almost anything remotely
educational. We got him a new computer last year.) Now he's just asked me
if he was going to be doing the same program this year. I told him there
was some question this last week about whether the school was going to
allowed to offer the program to high school aged students again this year
because the government figures they should be offering a diploma, with all
the huge changes to the program that would require. He asked me what would
be wrong with that, because he "hardly did anything last year".
It seems that the only reason he did anything academic last year was
because he "had to". I never told him to do academic things. I just asked
him every day what he *had* done and wrote it down. We counted all his bike
riding, all his sports, any movies he watched, anything he read,
conversations we had. I really wanted him to see that he was learning all
the time and didn't need to worry about "doing stuff" as he calls academic
learning. At one point I asked him to see if he could think of some
different things that he was doing anyway that he could write down. It was
more an exercise in seeing the learning happening, at least that's what I
thought at the time. He did actually do a bunch of academic stuff through
the year, but I thought it was because he was thinking ahead and wanted to
be able to get into whatever program he might want to enter in terms of
career. (I was thinking trades training, since he had shown so little
interest in any kind of book learning over the years.)
Now it seems that he doesn't believe he'll do anything without being made
to. I tried to point out how hard he works on all his sports stuff, because
he wants to, and that I assume he'll do academic stuff when he wants to
learn something (or needs a certain amount of math or reading and writing
ability to get into some program). He still doesn't believe that the
motivation can come from within. He clearly doesn't see unschooling the way
I do, and I don't know how to help him understand it. I'm not sure where to
go from here. Any thoughts?
Tia
Elizabeth Hill
**
that I assume he'll do academic stuff when he wants to
learn something (or needs a certain amount of math or reading and writing
ability to get into some program). He still doesn't believe that the
motivation can come from within.**
Hi, Tia --
Do you suppose Lars doesn't share your faith that he *can* do academics, if he needs them? Does he assume that it will be horrendously difficult and take years?
That may explain why he's more worried than you are. I have to say that I read the John Holt claims that all school mathematics could be learned in three (?) months and the first several times I read that, I didn't believe it. (I spent years doing math homework and figured that it was building my brain somehow.) Over time I came to believe that what Holt claimed was possible was possible, but I denied it at first.
I think there's a developmental stage when kids get skeptical about everything that their moms have to say. For me, when my mom told me that I wasn't fat as a teen (weighing 140), I just shook my head and figured she had to say really blind, dorky things because she was my mother. I knew she was not objective, and I figured she was also hopelessly out of touch.
You and I understand, from experience and lengthy discussions that learning something "in context" is different from learning it out of context. (Especially for those of us who like illustrative examples.) I realize you can't really "manuever" him, but IF he ended up in situations with the potential for on the job learning, he would probably learn a lot.
(Manuevering him would be a bad idea. At his age, I think it'd piss him off. It would p-o me!)
Personally, I have been listening to books on tape recently, while quilting and while doing housework. I'm enjoying it. I don't know if Lars would like it at all, but if he did, I would recommend some books about different learning styles. The last one I read (which I only read parts of) was _The Myth of Laziness_, by Mel Levine. (It's written by a man, not a mom, and he's a doctor, so maybe <g> Lars would find him credible.) It's very accepting of the idea that there are learning differences.
I'm coming to accept that my kid doesn't love books the way I do (except read aloud) but he learns a lot from television. I do tend to believe that Nova is more educational than Ed, Edd and Eddy, but I see some value in even the shrillest cartoons. A locally produced PBS show, called Real Science (I think) has young teens interviewing different scientists about careers, so it's the TV show that comes to mind when I think about TV as a form of "career education".
Have you even seen any of the Standard Deviants videos? They don't substitute for a whole semesters course in anything, but they give a fast familiarity with the terminology in a "subject" and maybe take the fear and mystery out of something like Trigonometry or Geology.
I would recommend seeing Farenheit 911 for anyone who is a budding filmmaker, just to analyze it and see what makes it powerful.
Overtime, now that we have the technology, pictures and moving pictures will replace words on the page as how we communicate. Lars' is just ahead of his time. (But his time is rapidly arriving.)
Betsy
PS Was the discussion about "who uses calculus -- practically nobody on this list? or a related list? or did I find it elsewhere?
that I assume he'll do academic stuff when he wants to
learn something (or needs a certain amount of math or reading and writing
ability to get into some program). He still doesn't believe that the
motivation can come from within.**
Hi, Tia --
Do you suppose Lars doesn't share your faith that he *can* do academics, if he needs them? Does he assume that it will be horrendously difficult and take years?
That may explain why he's more worried than you are. I have to say that I read the John Holt claims that all school mathematics could be learned in three (?) months and the first several times I read that, I didn't believe it. (I spent years doing math homework and figured that it was building my brain somehow.) Over time I came to believe that what Holt claimed was possible was possible, but I denied it at first.
I think there's a developmental stage when kids get skeptical about everything that their moms have to say. For me, when my mom told me that I wasn't fat as a teen (weighing 140), I just shook my head and figured she had to say really blind, dorky things because she was my mother. I knew she was not objective, and I figured she was also hopelessly out of touch.
You and I understand, from experience and lengthy discussions that learning something "in context" is different from learning it out of context. (Especially for those of us who like illustrative examples.) I realize you can't really "manuever" him, but IF he ended up in situations with the potential for on the job learning, he would probably learn a lot.
(Manuevering him would be a bad idea. At his age, I think it'd piss him off. It would p-o me!)
Personally, I have been listening to books on tape recently, while quilting and while doing housework. I'm enjoying it. I don't know if Lars would like it at all, but if he did, I would recommend some books about different learning styles. The last one I read (which I only read parts of) was _The Myth of Laziness_, by Mel Levine. (It's written by a man, not a mom, and he's a doctor, so maybe <g> Lars would find him credible.) It's very accepting of the idea that there are learning differences.
I'm coming to accept that my kid doesn't love books the way I do (except read aloud) but he learns a lot from television. I do tend to believe that Nova is more educational than Ed, Edd and Eddy, but I see some value in even the shrillest cartoons. A locally produced PBS show, called Real Science (I think) has young teens interviewing different scientists about careers, so it's the TV show that comes to mind when I think about TV as a form of "career education".
Have you even seen any of the Standard Deviants videos? They don't substitute for a whole semesters course in anything, but they give a fast familiarity with the terminology in a "subject" and maybe take the fear and mystery out of something like Trigonometry or Geology.
I would recommend seeing Farenheit 911 for anyone who is a budding filmmaker, just to analyze it and see what makes it powerful.
Overtime, now that we have the technology, pictures and moving pictures will replace words on the page as how we communicate. Lars' is just ahead of his time. (But his time is rapidly arriving.)
Betsy
PS Was the discussion about "who uses calculus -- practically nobody on this list? or a related list? or did I find it elsewhere?
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/28/2004 3:39:57 PM Central Standard Time,
leschke@... writes:
He clearly doesn't see unschooling the way
I do, and I don't know how to help him understand it. I'm not sure where to
go from here. Any thoughts?
~~~
I know that my son Will doesn't see all the nuances of unschooling. He's
too young yet (10)to have any goals other than being a pro baseball player
(which he works towards every day). I recently signed him up for Which Way USA?
books from Highlights. We've had the Mathmania and Puzzlemania books come
before and the mystery ones about a country which I can't remember the name of
right now. He did the mystery ones for a while, with my help, when he could
barely read, but never even looked at the others. (I'm keeping them for
later.) We got our first two Which Ways last week and he dove right into the one
about New York. It was really exciting for him because he knows we're going
there before the L&L conference and he loves the Yankees.
But...this is where I know he's not getting what all unschooling can really
mean for him. He came to me and was hugging the New York book to his chest.
(He really loves doing those books.) He said, "You know how kids in school
study geography? I think that's what they call it. This could be MY
geography book."
I smiled my agreement and I said, "There is a lot about geography in those
books." Then he said something that made me sad. He said, "I just want to be
smart, and so I'd like this to be my geography."
I said, "Will, you ARE smart. You know many things that kids in school
don't know and never have a chance to learn." I explained about how school
divides things into subjects like geography and history and social studies. But
that life is not really like that, that everything's mixed up together and
they teach that way in schools to make it easier to test the kids, and that's
why we get the idea that what's in the book is what is the most important thing
to know, because that's what will be on the test.
And I said, "There's geography all around in lots of the things you do.
Think about how much you know about different cities and states just because you
know about their baseball teams." Well, that just lit him up in a way I
rarely see, so I went on, "You can learn so many things that kids learn in
school just by learning about MLB: math, geography, history...and you could write
about it, too."
On another day after that we were in the car and the New York book was with
us, and we got to talk some more about how much is to be gained from books
and how much is to be gained in the experiences that we've had, and he's lucky
to be able to do both. We're going to be gone for 3 weeks on our way to and
from the conference and there's no way we could get all that experience from
books. We talked about connections we make and how he can relate almost
everything in his life back to baseball, and probably always will be able to.
I need to tell him about hooks and his "model of the universe", too. One
thing I've thought of doing is hanging a fish net on the wall and putting stuff
up there that remind us of connections we've made. (I saw an artpiece like
that in a movie --"Man of the House", I think--and I've thought of doing that
ever since.) We made a giant map of the trip to the conference and we've
been making connections like crazy since we started it in May. These kinds of
visual aids help me and I think they help him by extension.
So, I'm having a similar thing going on that you're having with Lars. Will
is getting it bit by bit, and he readily defends the idea that everyone
should have a choice about what goes in their head. But he doesn't see how to
extrapolate that to the rest of his life, and I think he just doesn't have
enough experience, yet. He has zero school experience so he doesn't have anything
to hook that to, and he is getting the wrong ideas about it, anyway. I try
to correct those, or at least put them in perspective of the unschooling
life.
I think Will's too young at this point to be interested in what's going on
with older unschoolers. No context, I think. One of his favorite unschooled
teens is starting high school in 2 weeks just so he can play football. Max
is 15 and had to cut his middle-of-the-back hair to be on the team. Will is
impressed with that commitment, and he totally gets the desire to play sports.
But I don't think he gets what Max had to go through to make the test score
to be put in the grade he wanted to be in. And I don't think he'll get it
for some time. There's just no context.
When it comes up again like it has lately ("geography"), I'll just keep
telling him what I think, and expand and expound on that as he gets more
experience, and give him more hooks for his net. And then we'll do some reading
about what older unschoolers do, too.
Karen, sorry this is so long...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leschke@... writes:
He clearly doesn't see unschooling the way
I do, and I don't know how to help him understand it. I'm not sure where to
go from here. Any thoughts?
~~~
I know that my son Will doesn't see all the nuances of unschooling. He's
too young yet (10)to have any goals other than being a pro baseball player
(which he works towards every day). I recently signed him up for Which Way USA?
books from Highlights. We've had the Mathmania and Puzzlemania books come
before and the mystery ones about a country which I can't remember the name of
right now. He did the mystery ones for a while, with my help, when he could
barely read, but never even looked at the others. (I'm keeping them for
later.) We got our first two Which Ways last week and he dove right into the one
about New York. It was really exciting for him because he knows we're going
there before the L&L conference and he loves the Yankees.
But...this is where I know he's not getting what all unschooling can really
mean for him. He came to me and was hugging the New York book to his chest.
(He really loves doing those books.) He said, "You know how kids in school
study geography? I think that's what they call it. This could be MY
geography book."
I smiled my agreement and I said, "There is a lot about geography in those
books." Then he said something that made me sad. He said, "I just want to be
smart, and so I'd like this to be my geography."
I said, "Will, you ARE smart. You know many things that kids in school
don't know and never have a chance to learn." I explained about how school
divides things into subjects like geography and history and social studies. But
that life is not really like that, that everything's mixed up together and
they teach that way in schools to make it easier to test the kids, and that's
why we get the idea that what's in the book is what is the most important thing
to know, because that's what will be on the test.
And I said, "There's geography all around in lots of the things you do.
Think about how much you know about different cities and states just because you
know about their baseball teams." Well, that just lit him up in a way I
rarely see, so I went on, "You can learn so many things that kids learn in
school just by learning about MLB: math, geography, history...and you could write
about it, too."
On another day after that we were in the car and the New York book was with
us, and we got to talk some more about how much is to be gained from books
and how much is to be gained in the experiences that we've had, and he's lucky
to be able to do both. We're going to be gone for 3 weeks on our way to and
from the conference and there's no way we could get all that experience from
books. We talked about connections we make and how he can relate almost
everything in his life back to baseball, and probably always will be able to.
I need to tell him about hooks and his "model of the universe", too. One
thing I've thought of doing is hanging a fish net on the wall and putting stuff
up there that remind us of connections we've made. (I saw an artpiece like
that in a movie --"Man of the House", I think--and I've thought of doing that
ever since.) We made a giant map of the trip to the conference and we've
been making connections like crazy since we started it in May. These kinds of
visual aids help me and I think they help him by extension.
So, I'm having a similar thing going on that you're having with Lars. Will
is getting it bit by bit, and he readily defends the idea that everyone
should have a choice about what goes in their head. But he doesn't see how to
extrapolate that to the rest of his life, and I think he just doesn't have
enough experience, yet. He has zero school experience so he doesn't have anything
to hook that to, and he is getting the wrong ideas about it, anyway. I try
to correct those, or at least put them in perspective of the unschooling
life.
I think Will's too young at this point to be interested in what's going on
with older unschoolers. No context, I think. One of his favorite unschooled
teens is starting high school in 2 weeks just so he can play football. Max
is 15 and had to cut his middle-of-the-back hair to be on the team. Will is
impressed with that commitment, and he totally gets the desire to play sports.
But I don't think he gets what Max had to go through to make the test score
to be put in the grade he wanted to be in. And I don't think he'll get it
for some time. There's just no context.
When it comes up again like it has lately ("geography"), I'll just keep
telling him what I think, and expand and expound on that as he gets more
experience, and give him more hooks for his net. And then we'll do some reading
about what older unschoolers do, too.
Karen, sorry this is so long...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paula Sjogerman
on 7/28/04 10:18 PM, tuckervill2@... at tuckervill2@... wrote:
Quinn, who's around the same age as Will, is also doing some of this. He's
said quite a few times this summer "I have no life." I think it's coming out
of watching Zoe do so many academic looking things and then his closest
friends taking several classes over the summer. He has never been a
taking-classes guy and I hate to see him think that that's what counts. He's
so smart, and funny, and learns so much all the time, but he's still
struggling with reading and that's wearing away at him a little. When I
start to talk about unschooling per se, he just says, "oh mom, I know."
Paula, taking deep breaths every day
> Karen, sorry this is so long...Don't be sorry, that was a great post.
Quinn, who's around the same age as Will, is also doing some of this. He's
said quite a few times this summer "I have no life." I think it's coming out
of watching Zoe do so many academic looking things and then his closest
friends taking several classes over the summer. He has never been a
taking-classes guy and I hate to see him think that that's what counts. He's
so smart, and funny, and learns so much all the time, but he's still
struggling with reading and that's wearing away at him a little. When I
start to talk about unschooling per se, he just says, "oh mom, I know."
Paula, taking deep breaths every day
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/28/04 10:17:06 PM, sjogy@... writes:
<< Quinn, who's around the same age as Will, is also doing some of this. He's
said quite a few times this summer "I have no life." I think it's coming out
of watching Zoe do so many academic looking things and then his closest
friends taking several classes over the summer. >>
Poor guys!
A kid his age in school would have some ratty notebooks and old tests and
writing assignments (unless he threw every bit of it away), and a 4th grade
report card with some grades (maybe really bad ones). And a whole lot of
lack-of-freedom. That would be his "life."
But at least it would be a mainstream life.
Sandra
<< Quinn, who's around the same age as Will, is also doing some of this. He's
said quite a few times this summer "I have no life." I think it's coming out
of watching Zoe do so many academic looking things and then his closest
friends taking several classes over the summer. >>
Poor guys!
A kid his age in school would have some ratty notebooks and old tests and
writing assignments (unless he threw every bit of it away), and a 4th grade
report card with some grades (maybe really bad ones). And a whole lot of
lack-of-freedom. That would be his "life."
But at least it would be a mainstream life.
Sandra
Mark Shields
There's a thread on unschooling.com about calculus....
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Hill [SMTP:ecsamhill@...]
PS Was the discussion about "who uses calculus -- practically nobody on this list? or a related list? or did I find it elsewhere?
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Hill [SMTP:ecsamhill@...]
PS Was the discussion about "who uses calculus -- practically nobody on this list? or a related list? or did I find it elsewhere?
neilinda
~ "...Quinn, who's around the same age as Will, is also doing some of this. He's said quite a few times this summer "I have no life."
Just a comment from the other side of the tunnel... several months ago, my 17 year old, always unschooled, son said to me, "thanks for giving me my life mom"
---linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just a comment from the other side of the tunnel... several months ago, my 17 year old, always unschooled, son said to me, "thanks for giving me my life mom"
---linda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paula Sjogerman
on 7/29/04 12:56 AM, neilinda at neilinda@... wrote:
general. I don't have doubts about the way we do things - I'm pretty sure he
sees it that way at least some of the time.
Paula
> Just a comment from the other side of the tunnel... several months ago, my 17Thanks! It is true that Quinn tends to be a glass-half-empty guy in
> year old, always unschooled, son said to me, "thanks for giving me my life
> mom"
general. I don't have doubts about the way we do things - I'm pretty sure he
sees it that way at least some of the time.
Paula
Elizabeth Hill
**There's a thread on unschooling.com about calculus....**
Thanks, Kristin, that must be where I saw it. It might be comforting
for Tia's son, because it mostly says "well Calculus was a pre-requisite
for this class, but we never used it."
However printing the thread and leaving the printout on the back of the
toilet doesn't seem like a subtle enough approach for a teen (or young
adult).
(One should be able to find the "calculus" thread by using the search
feature on the board.)
Betsy
Thanks, Kristin, that must be where I saw it. It might be comforting
for Tia's son, because it mostly says "well Calculus was a pre-requisite
for this class, but we never used it."
However printing the thread and leaving the printout on the back of the
toilet doesn't seem like a subtle enough approach for a teen (or young
adult).
(One should be able to find the "calculus" thread by using the search
feature on the board.)
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/2004 2:18:45 AM Central Standard Time,
neilinda@... writes:
Just a comment from the other side of the tunnel... several months ago, my
17 year old, always unschooled, son said to me, "thanks for giving me my life
mom"
~~~
Aww...My 19 yo said something similar like that to me once.
I kept an old bird cage, smallish, sitting around and I always left the door
open. One day Jon (then about 16) and I had a nice long conversation about
how I went from just opening the door on the cage for him (getting him out of
school in 6th grade) to realizing that the very cage was just an illusion
(total freedom and autonomy). We talked about how whenever he felt like he was
backed up against a wall, that he should just imagine it melting away under
him and realize the cage was totally gone and had been for some time.
It was a profound moment for him and he did say his thanks.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
neilinda@... writes:
Just a comment from the other side of the tunnel... several months ago, my
17 year old, always unschooled, son said to me, "thanks for giving me my life
mom"
~~~
Aww...My 19 yo said something similar like that to me once.
I kept an old bird cage, smallish, sitting around and I always left the door
open. One day Jon (then about 16) and I had a nice long conversation about
how I went from just opening the door on the cage for him (getting him out of
school in 6th grade) to realizing that the very cage was just an illusion
(total freedom and autonomy). We talked about how whenever he felt like he was
backed up against a wall, that he should just imagine it melting away under
him and realize the cage was totally gone and had been for some time.
It was a profound moment for him and he did say his thanks.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/04 9:42:22 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< (One should be able to find the "calculus" thread by using the search
feature on the board.) >>
Or if that doesn't work (it seizes up on me and sits and sits), in that same
box at the bottom of each message board page is "newmessages," and that one
DOES work. Put in two or three days and you'll see them talking about calculus.
Sandra
<< (One should be able to find the "calculus" thread by using the search
feature on the board.) >>
Or if that doesn't work (it seizes up on me and sits and sits), in that same
box at the bottom of each message board page is "newmessages," and that one
DOES work. Put in two or three days and you'll see them talking about calculus.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>Absolutely.
>that I assume he'll do academic stuff when he wants to
>learn something (or needs a certain amount of math or reading and writing
>ability to get into some program). He still doesn't believe that the
>motivation can come from within.**
>
>Hi, Tia --
>
>Do you suppose Lars doesn't share your faith that he *can* do academics,
>if he needs them? Does he assume that it will be horrendously difficult
>and take years?
More background. Lars has no homeschooling friends anymore. All his friends
go to school. He's met them through his sports activities. He hears them
talk about what they have to do and learn in school, and he seems to feel
he could never do any of it, or at least not "in time".
>That may explain why he's more worried than you are. I have to say that II've always believed it in my head. My gut is another matter. Math was a
>read the John Holt claims that all school mathematics could be learned in
>three (?) months and the first several times I read that, I didn't believe
>it. (I spent years doing math homework and figured that it was building
>my brain somehow.) Over time I came to believe that what Holt claimed was
>possible was possible, but I denied it at first.
huge obstacle for me, and I still haven't gotten past that. I've tried to
mostly stay out of it with Lars because my explanations of things never
seem to make sense to him. Rod seems to be able to help him better than I
can, but his work keeps him too busy to do much of it. I found a website
that seemed to be working for him. It goes through the basics of arithmetic
with an emphasis on understanding and mental math. He did a bunch of it,
even taking some time off from it to learn the multiplication tables. But
he works in spurts and then has to go back quite a ways when he starts
again after some time off.
He doesn't seem at all interested in a profession that would require
"higher math", but the trades courses in the colleges here usually require
grade 10, 11, or 12 math, depending on the course. My feeling is that he
could learn the stuff he needs quite quickly *if* he really wanted to. So I
tend to think he just isn't interested and leave it at that. But if he
thinks he can't . . . I'm not sure what to do about that.
It doesn't help at all that his girlfriend of the past year is a straight A
student who does very well in math. And no, he would never consider getting
her to tutor him. <g>
>I think there's a developmental stage when kids get skeptical aboutOh absolutely. His dad and I are from the stone age.
>everything that their moms have to say. For me, when my mom told me that
>I wasn't fat as a teen (weighing 140), I just shook my head and figured
>she had to say really blind, dorky things because she was my mother. I
>knew she was not objective, and I figured she was also hopelessly out of touch.
>You and I understand, from experience and lengthy discussions thatThe job he's been doing has given him a lot of knowledge about forestry,
>learning something "in context" is different from learning it out of
>context. (Especially for those of us who like illustrative examples.) I
>realize you can't really "manuever" him, but IF he ended up in situations
>with the potential for on the job learning, he would probably learn a lot.
which he doesn't want to do for a living. <g> His volunteer work, helping
sometimes at the bike store, has shown him that he'd need to improve his
writing and probably arithmetic skills in order to do that kind of work.
He's fine with assembling and repairing bicycles. <g>
>(Manuevering him would be a bad idea. At his age, I think it'd piss himI don't go there. <g>
>off. It would p-o me!)
>Personally, I have been listening to books on tape recently, whileThis is a thought. He isn't interested in listening to fiction on tape. I
>quilting and while doing housework. I'm enjoying it. I don't know if
>Lars would like it at all, but if he did, I would recommend some books
>about different learning styles. The last one I read (which I only read
>parts of) was _The Myth of Laziness_, by Mel Levine. (It's written by a
>man, not a mom, and he's a doctor, so maybe <g> Lars would find him
>credible.) It's very accepting of the idea that there are learning
>differences.
tried that. He used to love being read to or listening to fiction on tape.
That all stopped when I coerced him into learning to read . . . sigh. I
think one trouble with listening to tapes is that he doesn't like just
sitting and listening. And if he's doing something, it's probably riding
his bike or something. I'll ask him though.
>I'm coming to accept that my kid doesn't love books the way I do (exceptI've definitely gotten over my distrust of TV. <g> *I* know that he learns
>read aloud) but he learns a lot from television. I do tend to believe
>that Nova is more educational than Ed, Edd and Eddy, but I see some value
>in even the shrillest cartoons. A locally produced PBS show, called Real
>Science (I think) has young teens interviewing different scientists about
>careers, so it's the TV show that comes to mind when I think about TV as a
>form of "career education".
lots from watching, but I don't think he knows. Also, he tends to watch
when he can't think of anything to do, so he thinks of it as a boredom
buster rather than something interesting.
>Have you even seen any of the Standard Deviants videos? They don'tThey sound good, but I just checked the library. They have a bunch of
>substitute for a whole semesters course in anything, but they give a fast
>familiarity with the terminology in a "subject" and maybe take the fear
>and mystery out of something like Trigonometry or Geology.
Spanish and French, and one biology. I'll order that one for him. Ah, the
other library system I use has one about mythology, including LOTR. I've
ordered that one too.
>I would recommend seeing Farenheit 911 for anyone who is a buddingHe's seen it. I don't really know if he's looking at feature type films
>filmmaker, just to analyze it and see what makes it powerful.
with editing in mind. I know he's not interested in making fictional films,
and so far the only non-fiction type film he's shown an interest in making
is biking videos.
Sometimes I even wonder how interested he really is in film. I understood
when it took him ages to decide what he wanted in a computer, in terms of
being able to do editing. But he's had the computer, the camera, the right
cables, and some film for several months now and hasn't done much. He keeps
saying he needs to get more footage in order to edit, but he doesn't go out
and get footage. I never know whether to just leave it or keep asking if he
needs anything else, any help, etc.
>Overtime, now that we have the technology, pictures and moving picturesI agree with this. How to get it across to him . . . ?
>will replace words on the page as how we communicate. Lars' is just ahead
>of his time. (But his time is rapidly arriving.)
Thanks Betsy. This whole post has given me things to think about.
Tia
Tia Leschke
>LOL! I can still remember the book I used to take to nursery school with
>
>But...this is where I know he's not getting what all unschooling can really
>mean for him. He came to me and was hugging the New York book to
>his chest.
>(He really loves doing those books.) He said, "You know how kids in school
>study geography? I think that's what they call it. This could be MY
>geography book."
me. (This goes back 52 years!) I called it my "homework".
>I find it really hard to give him answers when he asks, "*What* do I know
>I smiled my agreement and I said, "There is a lot about geography in those
>books." Then he said something that made me sad. He said, "I just want
>to be
>smart, and so I'd like this to be my geography."
>
>I said, "Will, you ARE smart. You know many things that kids in school
>don't know and never have a chance to learn." I explained about how school
>divides things into subjects like geography and history and
>social studies. But
>that life is not really like that, that everything's mixed up together and
>they teach that way in schools to make it easier to test the kids, and
>that's
>why we get the idea that what's in the book is what is the most important
>thing
>to know, because that's what will be on the test.
that the other kids don't?" It's so subjective. He's thinking school
subjects when he asks that. And he doesn't know all that much about school
subjects.
>Took me a minute to figure out what MLB stands for. <g> Do you know Sandy
>And I said, "There's geography all around in lots of the things you do.
>Think about how much you know about different cities and states just
>because you
>know about their baseball teams." Well, that just lit him up in a way I
>rarely see, so I went on, "You can learn so many things that kids learn in
>school just by learning about MLB: math, geography, history...and you
>could write
>about it, too."
Keane up in Vancouver? She's written about all the stuff her boys have
learned from their interest in baseball. They even used to make scale model
baseball stadiums. I've seen them. They're wonderful. Now the younger one
at 15 really is going for a career in baseball.
>This is something I've never talked with Lars about. Maybe it's time.
>I need to tell him about hooks and his "model of the universe", too.
>No apologies. It's been helpful.
>Karen, sorry this is so long...
Tia
eriksmama2001
Thanks for the visual. I am saving it for those doubting days ahead.
Perhaps they will be fewer due to the physical reminder. Maybe I'll
get a bird cage. "Cage-free learning". Kinda like free-range
chickens. lol
Pat
Perhaps they will be fewer due to the physical reminder. Maybe I'll
get a bird cage. "Cage-free learning". Kinda like free-range
chickens. lol
Pat
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/29/2004 2:18:45 AM Central Standard Time,
> neilinda@c... writes:
>
> Just a comment from the other side of the tunnel... several
months ago, my
> 17 year old, always unschooled, son said to me, "thanks for giving
me my life
> mom"
>
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> Aww...My 19 yo said something similar like that to me once.
>
> I kept an old bird cage, smallish, sitting around and I always left
the door
> open. One day Jon (then about 16) and I had a nice long
conversation about
> how I went from just opening the door on the cage for him (getting
him out of
> school in 6th grade) to realizing that the very cage was just an
illusion
> (total freedom and autonomy). We talked about how whenever he felt
like he was
> backed up against a wall, that he should just imagine it melting
away under
> him and realize the cage was totally gone and had been for some
time.
>
> It was a profound moment for him and he did say his thanks.
>
> Karen
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
eriksmama2001
What is models of the universe?
--- In [email protected], Tia Leschke <leschke@s...>
wrote:
--- In [email protected], Tia Leschke <leschke@s...>
wrote:
>can really
> >
> >
> >But...this is where I know he's not getting what all unschooling
> >mean for him. He came to me and was hugging the New York book toin school
> >his chest.
> >(He really loves doing those books.) He said, "You know how kids
> >study geography? I think that's what they call it. This couldbe MY
> >geography book."with
>
> LOL! I can still remember the book I used to take to nursery school
> me. (This goes back 52 years!) I called it my "homework".in those
>
> >
> >I smiled my agreement and I said, "There is a lot about geography
> >books." Then he said something that made me sad. He said, "Ijust want
> >to beschool
> >smart, and so I'd like this to be my geography."
> >
> >I said, "Will, you ARE smart. You know many things that kids in
> >don't know and never have a chance to learn." I explained abouthow school
> >divides things into subjects like geography and history andtogether and
> >social studies. But
> >that life is not really like that, that everything's mixed up
> >they teach that way in schools to make it easier to test thekids, and
> >that'simportant
> >why we get the idea that what's in the book is what is the most
> >thingI know
> >to know, because that's what will be on the test.
>
> I find it really hard to give him answers when he asks, "*What* do
> that the other kids don't?" It's so subjective. He's thinkingschool
> subjects when he asks that. And he doesn't know all that much aboutschool
> subjects.you do.
>
> >
> >And I said, "There's geography all around in lots of the things
> >Think about how much you know about different cities and statesjust
> >because youa way I
> >know about their baseball teams." Well, that just lit him up in
> >rarely see, so I went on, "You can learn so many things that kidslearn in
> >school just by learning about MLB: math, geography,history...and you
> >could writeSandy
> >about it, too."
>
> Took me a minute to figure out what MLB stands for. <g> Do you know
> Keane up in Vancouver? She's written about all the stuff her boyshave
> learned from their interest in baseball. They even used to makescale model
> baseball stadiums. I've seen them. They're wonderful. Now theyounger one
> at 15 really is going for a career in baseball.too.
>
> >
> >I need to tell him about hooks and his "model of the universe",
>time.
> This is something I've never talked with Lars about. Maybe it's
>
>
> >
> >Karen, sorry this is so long...
>
> No apologies. It's been helpful.
> Tia
eriksmama2001
Thanks for sharing your journey vicariously, the process of
facilitating an older child's learning is exciting to see unfold in
your posts. It is inspirational to watch.
Pat
--- In [email protected], Tia Leschke <leschke@s...>
wrote:
facilitating an older child's learning is exciting to see unfold in
your posts. It is inspirational to watch.
Pat
--- In [email protected], Tia Leschke <leschke@s...>
wrote:
>writing
> >
> >that I assume he'll do academic stuff when he wants to
> >learn something (or needs a certain amount of math or reading and
> >ability to get into some program). He still doesn't believe thatthe
> >motivation can come from within.**academics,
> >
> >Hi, Tia --
> >
> >Do you suppose Lars doesn't share your faith that he *can* do
> >if he needs them? Does he assume that it will be horrendouslydifficult
> >and take years?friends
>
> Absolutely.
> More background. Lars has no homeschooling friends anymore. All his
> go to school. He's met them through his sports activities. He hearsthem
> talk about what they have to do and learn in school, and he seemsto feel
> he could never do any of it, or at least not "in time".say that I
>
>
> >That may explain why he's more worried than you are. I have to
> >read the John Holt claims that all school mathematics could belearned in
> >three (?) months and the first several times I read that, I didn'tbelieve
> >it. (I spent years doing math homework and figured that it wasbuilding
> >my brain somehow.) Over time I came to believe that what Holtclaimed was
> >possible was possible, but I denied it at first.was a
>
> I've always believed it in my head. My gut is another matter. Math
> huge obstacle for me, and I still haven't gotten past that. I'vetried to
> mostly stay out of it with Lars because my explanations of thingsnever
> seem to make sense to him. Rod seems to be able to help him betterthan I
> can, but his work keeps him too busy to do much of it. I found awebsite
> that seemed to be working for him. It goes through the basics ofarithmetic
> with an emphasis on understanding and mental math. He did a bunchof it,
> even taking some time off from it to learn the multiplicationtables. But
> he works in spurts and then has to go back quite a ways when hestarts
> again after some time off.require
>
> He doesn't seem at all interested in a profession that would
> "higher math", but the trades courses in the colleges here usuallyrequire
> grade 10, 11, or 12 math, depending on the course. My feeling isthat he
> could learn the stuff he needs quite quickly *if* he really wantedto. So I
> tend to think he just isn't interested and leave it at that. But ifhe
> thinks he can't . . . I'm not sure what to do about that.straight A
> It doesn't help at all that his girlfriend of the past year is a
> student who does very well in math. And no, he would never considergetting
> her to tutor him. <g>about
>
>
> >I think there's a developmental stage when kids get skeptical
> >everything that their moms have to say. For me, when my mom toldme that
> >I wasn't fat as a teen (weighing 140), I just shook my head andfigured
> >she had to say really blind, dorky things because she was mymother. I
> >knew she was not objective, and I figured she was also hopelesslyout of touch.
>of
> Oh absolutely. His dad and I are from the stone age.
>
>
> >You and I understand, from experience and lengthy discussions that
> >learning something "in context" is different from learning it out
> >context. (Especially for those of us who like illustrativeexamples.) I
> >realize you can't really "manuever" him, but IF he ended up insituations
> >with the potential for on the job learning, he would probablylearn a lot.
>forestry,
> The job he's been doing has given him a lot of knowledge about
> which he doesn't want to do for a living. <g> His volunteer work,helping
> sometimes at the bike store, has shown him that he'd need toimprove his
> writing and probably arithmetic skills in order to do that kind ofwork.
> He's fine with assembling and repairing bicycles. <g>piss him
>
>
> >(Manuevering him would be a bad idea. At his age, I think it'd
> >off. It would p-o me!)know if
>
> I don't go there. <g>
>
>
> >Personally, I have been listening to books on tape recently, while
> >quilting and while doing housework. I'm enjoying it. I don't
> >Lars would like it at all, but if he did, I would recommend somebooks
> >about different learning styles. The last one I read (which Ionly read
> >parts of) was _The Myth of Laziness_, by Mel Levine. (It'swritten by a
> >man, not a mom, and he's a doctor, so maybe <g> Lars would findhim
> >credible.) It's very accepting of the idea that there arelearning
> >differences.tape. I
>
> This is a thought. He isn't interested in listening to fiction on
> tried that. He used to love being read to or listening to fictionon tape.
> That all stopped when I coerced him into learning to read . . .sigh. I
> think one trouble with listening to tapes is that he doesn't likejust
> sitting and listening. And if he's doing something, it's probablyriding
> his bike or something. I'll ask him though.(except
>
>
> >I'm coming to accept that my kid doesn't love books the way I do
> >read aloud) but he learns a lot from television. I do tend tobelieve
> >that Nova is more educational than Ed, Edd and Eddy, but I seesome value
> >in even the shrillest cartoons. A locally produced PBS show,called Real
> >Science (I think) has young teens interviewing differentscientists about
> >careers, so it's the TV show that comes to mind when I think aboutTV as a
> >form of "career education".learns
>
> I've definitely gotten over my distrust of TV. <g> *I* know that he
> lots from watching, but I don't think he knows. Also, he tends towatch
> when he can't think of anything to do, so he thinks of it as aboredom
> buster rather than something interesting.don't
>
>
> >Have you even seen any of the Standard Deviants videos? They
> >substitute for a whole semesters course in anything, but they givea fast
> >familiarity with the terminology in a "subject" and maybe take thefear
> >and mystery out of something like Trigonometry or Geology.of
>
> They sound good, but I just checked the library. They have a bunch
> Spanish and French, and one biology. I'll order that one for him.Ah, the
> other library system I use has one about mythology, including LOTR.I've
> ordered that one too.films
>
>
> >I would recommend seeing Farenheit 911 for anyone who is a budding
> >filmmaker, just to analyze it and see what makes it powerful.
>
> He's seen it. I don't really know if he's looking at feature type
> with editing in mind. I know he's not interested in makingfictional films,
> and so far the only non-fiction type film he's shown an interest inmaking
> is biking videos.understood
>
> Sometimes I even wonder how interested he really is in film. I
> when it took him ages to decide what he wanted in a computer, interms of
> being able to do editing. But he's had the computer, the camera,the right
> cables, and some film for several months now and hasn't done much.He keeps
> saying he needs to get more footage in order to edit, but hedoesn't go out
> and get footage. I never know whether to just leave it or keepasking if he
> needs anything else, any help, etc.pictures
>
>
> >Overtime, now that we have the technology, pictures and moving
> >will replace words on the page as how we communicate. Lars' isjust ahead
> >of his time. (But his time is rapidly arriving.)
>
> I agree with this. How to get it across to him . . . ?
> Thanks Betsy. This whole post has given me things to think about.
> Tia
Elizabeth Hill
**He doesn't seem at all interested in a profession that would require
"higher math", but the trades courses in the colleges here usually
require grade 10, 11, or 12 math, depending on the course.**
OK, I wish there was a way he could stealthily find out what the hardest math is that is used in those courses. (I've taken courses for which you are required to take a whole course in statistics or a whole course in calculus, and I recall needing only a tiny bit of that math to do the work in the class.) Flipping through a textbook or reading a course syllabus or talking to a former student might reveal some useful information.
What are the potential alternative ways he could learn the content of the trades courses without enrolling in the courses?
Are there self-paced kinds of learning that he could do, knowing that if he had to stop and bone up on math there would be no time penalty? I don't think the fast clip of many classes is conducive to thorough learning.
I studied Electrical Engineering in college and it was so abstract that it was terrible preparation for what I needed to know on the job. (I tend to be very abstract, so I'm better with formulas and homework problems than I am with reality. Most jobs, 'cept maybe the gov't ones, tend to be reality-based. <g>)
I learn well from textbooks while, one of my friends' husbands learns well by doing things. Which one of us do you suppose adapted better and was more successful as a technology worker? (Hint: it wasn't me.)
So I believe that book-learning isn't the be all and end all of life. You believe it too. But Lars isn't buying it?
Oh, I just heard about a PBS series called Roadtrip USA, and at least part of it was asking about how people got started in their careers. You and I know that lots of people do poorly in school and do well in life. Lot of people do well in school and end up pulling down the tiny paycheck that school teachers get. <g>
**
Sometimes I even wonder how interested he really is in film. I understood
when it took him ages to decide what he wanted in a computer, in terms of
being able to do editing. But he's had the computer, the camera, the right
cables, and some film for several months now and hasn't done much. He keeps
saying he needs to get more footage in order to edit, but he doesn't go out
and get footage. I never know whether to just leave it or keep asking if he
needs anything else, any help, etc.**
Oh, my gut is telling me that I would need to be in a cave with a door that locked and have complete privacy from my mother before I could start doing something like this. (And she's not at all a bad mom, just kind of intrusive.) I'm really good at imagining things that I want to do, but not so good at dealing with the disappointment if they don't turn out well.
Maybe he's not interested in film, per se, but just wanted to see what mountain biking looked like from different angles? Wanted to be able to make a bike do things on the screen that it can't do on land? (or in air?)
Betsy
PS I had my unemployed brother here for nearly 6 months. Even though he's fortyish and has worked before and pulled down big paychecks, he could still be adolescent about living in the present and not looking for work. It's a challenging transition to make.
"higher math", but the trades courses in the colleges here usually
require grade 10, 11, or 12 math, depending on the course.**
OK, I wish there was a way he could stealthily find out what the hardest math is that is used in those courses. (I've taken courses for which you are required to take a whole course in statistics or a whole course in calculus, and I recall needing only a tiny bit of that math to do the work in the class.) Flipping through a textbook or reading a course syllabus or talking to a former student might reveal some useful information.
What are the potential alternative ways he could learn the content of the trades courses without enrolling in the courses?
Are there self-paced kinds of learning that he could do, knowing that if he had to stop and bone up on math there would be no time penalty? I don't think the fast clip of many classes is conducive to thorough learning.
I studied Electrical Engineering in college and it was so abstract that it was terrible preparation for what I needed to know on the job. (I tend to be very abstract, so I'm better with formulas and homework problems than I am with reality. Most jobs, 'cept maybe the gov't ones, tend to be reality-based. <g>)
I learn well from textbooks while, one of my friends' husbands learns well by doing things. Which one of us do you suppose adapted better and was more successful as a technology worker? (Hint: it wasn't me.)
So I believe that book-learning isn't the be all and end all of life. You believe it too. But Lars isn't buying it?
Oh, I just heard about a PBS series called Roadtrip USA, and at least part of it was asking about how people got started in their careers. You and I know that lots of people do poorly in school and do well in life. Lot of people do well in school and end up pulling down the tiny paycheck that school teachers get. <g>
**
Sometimes I even wonder how interested he really is in film. I understood
when it took him ages to decide what he wanted in a computer, in terms of
being able to do editing. But he's had the computer, the camera, the right
cables, and some film for several months now and hasn't done much. He keeps
saying he needs to get more footage in order to edit, but he doesn't go out
and get footage. I never know whether to just leave it or keep asking if he
needs anything else, any help, etc.**
Oh, my gut is telling me that I would need to be in a cave with a door that locked and have complete privacy from my mother before I could start doing something like this. (And she's not at all a bad mom, just kind of intrusive.) I'm really good at imagining things that I want to do, but not so good at dealing with the disappointment if they don't turn out well.
Maybe he's not interested in film, per se, but just wanted to see what mountain biking looked like from different angles? Wanted to be able to make a bike do things on the screen that it can't do on land? (or in air?)
Betsy
PS I had my unemployed brother here for nearly 6 months. Even though he's fortyish and has worked before and pulled down big paychecks, he could still be adolescent about living in the present and not looking for work. It's a challenging transition to make.
Tia Leschke
>That would work if he was just going to try to find work in a trade, but
>
>OK, I wish there was a way he could stealthily find out what the hardest
>math is that is used in those courses. (I've taken courses for which you
>are required to take a whole course in statistics or a whole course in
>calculus, and I recall needing only a tiny bit of that math to do the work
>in the class.) Flipping through a textbook or reading a course syllabus
>or talking to a former student might reveal some useful information.
the pre-apprenticeship courses usually have set requirements. (They *can*
be met by exam, though, which is a good thing.)
>What are the potential alternative ways he could learn the content of theThere was a great opportunity this summer, two week courses for not much
>trades courses without enrolling in the courses?
money that went through all the trades they teach, classroom and field
trips. Unfortunately they both conflicted with important ball tournaments.
I've thought about asking tradespeople to let him shadow for a while, but I
don't really know any right now.
>Are there self-paced kinds of learning that he could do, knowing that ifDo you mean to get the requirements? He can test out of those, but he has
>he had to stop and bone up on math there would be no time penalty? I
>don't think the fast clip of many classes is conducive to thorough learning.
to learn the stuff. The local school district has a couple of alternative
schools that allow the kids to work towards a diploma at their own speed.
I've thought about suggesting it, but I'm a bit cautious about those for
two reasons. One, they're designed for the discipline problems. My older
son went to one and just ended up making a lot of friends that I wished he
hadn't. The other has to do with not wanting to cause problems for
homeschoolers. You can imagine the thinking of the bureaurcrats if very
many older teens started going to these places knowing not much about
either arithmetic or writing. Then again, a young man I know went through
one of those programs recently (in another city) and was quite happy with
it and has his diploma now. It didn't take him very long.
>So I believe that book-learning isn't the be all and end all of life. YouThat's right.
>believe it too. But Lars isn't buying it?
>Oh, I just heard about a PBS series called Roadtrip USA, and at least partHey, I'll have to watch out for that one. He might even like it.
>of it was asking about how people got started in their careers. You and I
>know that lots of people do poorly in school and do well in life. Lot of
>people do well in school and end up pulling down the tiny paycheck that
>school teachers get. <g>
>**So how does a mother who wants to respect his privacy know when to offer
>Sometimes I even wonder how interested he really is in film. I understood
>when it took him ages to decide what he wanted in a computer, in terms of
>being able to do editing. But he's had the computer, the camera, the right
>cables, and some film for several months now and hasn't done much. He keeps
>saying he needs to get more footage in order to edit, but he doesn't go out
>and get footage. I never know whether to just leave it or keep asking if he
>needs anything else, any help, etc.**
>
>Oh, my gut is telling me that I would need to be in a cave with a door
>that locked and have complete privacy from my mother before I could start
>doing something like this. (And she's not at all a bad mom, just kind of
>intrusive.) I'm really good at imagining things that I want to do, but
>not so good at dealing with the disappointment if they don't turn out well.
help and when to back off? He has a tendency not to ask for help on a lot
of things. I often think it's because he doesn't know how to put it into words.
>Maybe he's not interested in film, per se, but just wanted to see whatWell he's watched enough of those videos to see that! <g>
>mountain biking looked like from different angles?
>Wanted to be able to make a bike do things on the screen that it can't doLike trying to jump up onto something on just the front tire and breaking
>on land? (or in air?)
his arm instead? <g>
I'd love to see him start experimenting with all kinds of film, animation,
etc. but I don't know how to encourage him or if he even really wants to.
He has said he'd like to take the one week film course given near here.
They have some weeks that are just for filming extreme sports, but they're
all in the spring. If he ends up doing the same program as last year, we
could use the money for that.
Tia
mozafamily
What a wonderful thread! I hope my son has something "in mind" when
the time comes as well, even if that doesn't turn out to be his
life's work, just having "something" to work towards can be
empowering. As for the maths, could he perhaps go over a basic high
school math book? Or perhaps get one of the GED math study guides?
Perhaps a look at a bit of what is out there would help - it's not
like he is going to be needing calculus unless it is something like
engineering, plus they teach calculus in college anyhow, most kids
who come out of high school only know basic math - everything else
they have already forgotten anyhow and so the colleges are ready to
reteach it to them fo them to get a degree. Me and my nephew
(traditionally homeschooled with ABecka and will graduate this fall
and is almost 19, VERY smart!) were talking about that he would
mabye like to be a chemical engineer and he was worried about that
he had only had so much math, etc. I know that if he studies he can
do anything he wants and I told him so, not to let the fear of
the "unknown math" hold him back from what he wants to do. I think
he's going to start off with only 2 courses a semester from a small
college because he really wants to experience the "work" world
somewhat as well (he has never worked) and luckily his parents are
highly in agreement with him. I asked him if he has minded using a
curriculum and he said that except for a few times when the courses
seemed overly long or overly indepth about subjects he didn't have
much interest in that he really enjoyed schooling at home and was
glad that his parents gave him the opportunity to be closer to them
as well. Anyhow I think he should be able to do ANYTHING he sets his
mind to and I can only hope my son (6 yo) will have that "clue" of
what he wants to do at his age, even though we are following an
entirely different path with my son picking his own activities now,
and me being his advisor/ guide ,etc and not his TEACHER.
the time comes as well, even if that doesn't turn out to be his
life's work, just having "something" to work towards can be
empowering. As for the maths, could he perhaps go over a basic high
school math book? Or perhaps get one of the GED math study guides?
Perhaps a look at a bit of what is out there would help - it's not
like he is going to be needing calculus unless it is something like
engineering, plus they teach calculus in college anyhow, most kids
who come out of high school only know basic math - everything else
they have already forgotten anyhow and so the colleges are ready to
reteach it to them fo them to get a degree. Me and my nephew
(traditionally homeschooled with ABecka and will graduate this fall
and is almost 19, VERY smart!) were talking about that he would
mabye like to be a chemical engineer and he was worried about that
he had only had so much math, etc. I know that if he studies he can
do anything he wants and I told him so, not to let the fear of
the "unknown math" hold him back from what he wants to do. I think
he's going to start off with only 2 courses a semester from a small
college because he really wants to experience the "work" world
somewhat as well (he has never worked) and luckily his parents are
highly in agreement with him. I asked him if he has minded using a
curriculum and he said that except for a few times when the courses
seemed overly long or overly indepth about subjects he didn't have
much interest in that he really enjoyed schooling at home and was
glad that his parents gave him the opportunity to be closer to them
as well. Anyhow I think he should be able to do ANYTHING he sets his
mind to and I can only hope my son (6 yo) will have that "clue" of
what he wants to do at his age, even though we are following an
entirely different path with my son picking his own activities now,
and me being his advisor/ guide ,etc and not his TEACHER.
Elizabeth Hill
**
That would work if he was just going to try to find work in a trade, but
the pre-apprenticeship courses usually have set requirements. (They *can*
be met by exam, though, which is a good thing.)**
And the set requirement may put the math ability bar much higher than it
really needs to be for the class?
Lots of people down here in the US take remedial math in college and no
one thinks that it is their mom's fault. <g> (OK, maybe I shouldn't be
teasing on what's probably a tender topic.)
**a couple of alternative
schools that allow the kids to work towards a diploma at their own speed.
I've thought about suggesting it, but I'm a bit cautious about those for
two reasons. One, they're designed for the discipline problems. My older
son went to one and just ended up making a lot of friends that I wished he
hadn't.**
OK, well I see your point there.
**So how does a mother who wants to respect his privacy know when to offer
help and when to back off? **
Oooooh. Tough one. I'm not at all qualified to answer that question, but when you figure it out, I hope you'll be kind enough to share with me. (I've got 3 years before James is a teenager.)
Betsy
That would work if he was just going to try to find work in a trade, but
the pre-apprenticeship courses usually have set requirements. (They *can*
be met by exam, though, which is a good thing.)**
And the set requirement may put the math ability bar much higher than it
really needs to be for the class?
Lots of people down here in the US take remedial math in college and no
one thinks that it is their mom's fault. <g> (OK, maybe I shouldn't be
teasing on what's probably a tender topic.)
**a couple of alternative
schools that allow the kids to work towards a diploma at their own speed.
I've thought about suggesting it, but I'm a bit cautious about those for
two reasons. One, they're designed for the discipline problems. My older
son went to one and just ended up making a lot of friends that I wished he
hadn't.**
OK, well I see your point there.
**So how does a mother who wants to respect his privacy know when to offer
help and when to back off? **
Oooooh. Tough one. I'm not at all qualified to answer that question, but when you figure it out, I hope you'll be kind enough to share with me. (I've got 3 years before James is a teenager.)
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:38:22 PM Central Standard Time,
leschke@... writes:
I find it really hard to give him answers when he asks, "*What* do I know
that the other kids don't?" It's so subjective. He's thinking school
subjects when he asks that. And he doesn't know all that much about school
subjects.
~~~
Just now in the car we had the same conversation. All I could think of was
all the things he does know about baseball, and all the trips he's taken and
the places he's been. What he knows is what he knows, and it's not
quantifiable and it's in him and it can't be measured. The whole reason we measure
kids is ONLY because they are in school.
I explained it to him like this:
Most of the kids born in 1993 all learned the same things by the time they
were 5. They learned how to walk and talk and letters and colors and numbers,
etc. Then some of them went to school. So those kids were all in the same
grade and in the first year they learned this and this and this. (I gestured
with my hands to signify a brief section of time.) Then they moved into the
next grade and learned this and this and this (using my hands to form
another section of time). And the next year, this and this and this. But you,
Will, and other unschooled kids, they get to age 5 and they learn this (I put my
hand in the first section) and this (I moved my hand far ahead on the
imaginary line) and this (then moved it back a little), and THIS (and I moved my
hand to way past the end of the line into something most people learn only as
adults), and that's the same way you've been learning your entire life. When
all of you that were born in 1993 get to be 18 or 20, most of you will know
pretty much the same things as everyone else born then. Except YOU might not
know what Plymouth Rock is until you're 25, and that's okay, because you went
25 years without ever having a NEED to know what Plymouth Rock is. And THEY
might not know so much about New York, because they might never have a NEED
to know that. Just like you learned to read when your brain was ready, you
will learn the things you need to know when you need to know them.
Then I picked up a piece of junk mail off the dashboard. It had a bullet
list of four things on it. I said, "Teachers sometimes decide for instance,
that this is a list of all the things a kid should know in 4th grade about a
certain thing. The best students in the class might sit and listen to all
that, learn something, and be able to remember it all and put it on a test. Some
of the kids who aren't such good students might get one of the things and
vaguely remember the rest. And then some of them will pick out #2 on the list
and really want to know much much more about that one thing, but they won't
be able to learn anymore than the teacher is willing to give them, or what's
in the textbook. You are not forced to learn anything at all, but if you
wanted to pick out #2 on the list and learn all you can about it, you could do
that and keep on doing it until you are through. Or you could learn about #2
and then be slightly interested in 3 and 4, or just ignore the list
altogether. Kids in school don't have that choice.
Then he said this, "I know! It's like a "learn sandwich" and someone's
trying to stuff it in their mouth!" and he put his hand to my mouth as if to
stuff in a sandwich. I said, "Yes! And what happens if you eat something you
don't like?" He stuck out his tongue and made vomit noises as only a 10 yo
boy can do.
It was a nice conversation, fun and animated. I think he has something to
think about.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
leschke@... writes:
I find it really hard to give him answers when he asks, "*What* do I know
that the other kids don't?" It's so subjective. He's thinking school
subjects when he asks that. And he doesn't know all that much about school
subjects.
~~~
Just now in the car we had the same conversation. All I could think of was
all the things he does know about baseball, and all the trips he's taken and
the places he's been. What he knows is what he knows, and it's not
quantifiable and it's in him and it can't be measured. The whole reason we measure
kids is ONLY because they are in school.
I explained it to him like this:
Most of the kids born in 1993 all learned the same things by the time they
were 5. They learned how to walk and talk and letters and colors and numbers,
etc. Then some of them went to school. So those kids were all in the same
grade and in the first year they learned this and this and this. (I gestured
with my hands to signify a brief section of time.) Then they moved into the
next grade and learned this and this and this (using my hands to form
another section of time). And the next year, this and this and this. But you,
Will, and other unschooled kids, they get to age 5 and they learn this (I put my
hand in the first section) and this (I moved my hand far ahead on the
imaginary line) and this (then moved it back a little), and THIS (and I moved my
hand to way past the end of the line into something most people learn only as
adults), and that's the same way you've been learning your entire life. When
all of you that were born in 1993 get to be 18 or 20, most of you will know
pretty much the same things as everyone else born then. Except YOU might not
know what Plymouth Rock is until you're 25, and that's okay, because you went
25 years without ever having a NEED to know what Plymouth Rock is. And THEY
might not know so much about New York, because they might never have a NEED
to know that. Just like you learned to read when your brain was ready, you
will learn the things you need to know when you need to know them.
Then I picked up a piece of junk mail off the dashboard. It had a bullet
list of four things on it. I said, "Teachers sometimes decide for instance,
that this is a list of all the things a kid should know in 4th grade about a
certain thing. The best students in the class might sit and listen to all
that, learn something, and be able to remember it all and put it on a test. Some
of the kids who aren't such good students might get one of the things and
vaguely remember the rest. And then some of them will pick out #2 on the list
and really want to know much much more about that one thing, but they won't
be able to learn anymore than the teacher is willing to give them, or what's
in the textbook. You are not forced to learn anything at all, but if you
wanted to pick out #2 on the list and learn all you can about it, you could do
that and keep on doing it until you are through. Or you could learn about #2
and then be slightly interested in 3 and 4, or just ignore the list
altogether. Kids in school don't have that choice.
Then he said this, "I know! It's like a "learn sandwich" and someone's
trying to stuff it in their mouth!" and he put his hand to my mouth as if to
stuff in a sandwich. I said, "Yes! And what happens if you eat something you
don't like?" He stuck out his tongue and made vomit noises as only a 10 yo
boy can do.
It was a nice conversation, fun and animated. I think he has something to
think about.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>even if that doesn't turn out to be hislife's work, just having "something" to work towards can be
empowering.>>>>
Maybe that is part of the problem. Is there too much pressure put on young adults to get going with whatever their life's career will be, rather than simply continuing a life-long path of exploring and learning as they go?
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/2004 7:44:42 PM Central Standard Time,
scubamama@... writes:
What is models of the universe?
~~~
I'm sure I first heard about this in the heyday of AOL's homeschooling
forum. I can't remember who first used it, Sandra or Pam or maybe Mary Kate or
someone else. There maybe something written about it on the internet
somewhere, and I'm sure Sandra can explain it better than I can.
It's the idea that everyone is building a model of the universe in their
head, and every experience and idea they have either is added to what the
universe looks like to them, saved for later or discarded. Everyone's model is
different because everyone's experiences and chemistry are different, even
though there are things in common.
It's easier to see it when you think in terms of little babies with "so
little experience, you might not be cognizant..." A baby's first experiences,
feeling mother's touch for the first time, hearing her voice unmuffled, seeing
the lights, are the building blocks of their model of what the world is like.
Soon they are experiencing their body and gravity and sound and these things
start to make sense in context of what else they know.
A model of the universe is a very powerful visual for me. I can't believe I
haven't shared the idea with Will, yet.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
scubamama@... writes:
What is models of the universe?
~~~
I'm sure I first heard about this in the heyday of AOL's homeschooling
forum. I can't remember who first used it, Sandra or Pam or maybe Mary Kate or
someone else. There maybe something written about it on the internet
somewhere, and I'm sure Sandra can explain it better than I can.
It's the idea that everyone is building a model of the universe in their
head, and every experience and idea they have either is added to what the
universe looks like to them, saved for later or discarded. Everyone's model is
different because everyone's experiences and chemistry are different, even
though there are things in common.
It's easier to see it when you think in terms of little babies with "so
little experience, you might not be cognizant..." A baby's first experiences,
feeling mother's touch for the first time, hearing her voice unmuffled, seeing
the lights, are the building blocks of their model of what the world is like.
Soon they are experiencing their body and gravity and sound and these things
start to make sense in context of what else they know.
A model of the universe is a very powerful visual for me. I can't believe I
haven't shared the idea with Will, yet.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/04 7:27:29 PM, tuckervill2@... writes:
<< I can't remember who first used it, Sandra or Pam or maybe Mary Kate or
someone else. There maybe something written about it on the internet
somewhere, and I'm sure Sandra can explain it better than I can. >>
Here's where I recently explained it. <g>
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
and it's also here
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/194/jaunschooling.html
But the former has good stuff following, and better format.
Sandra
<< I can't remember who first used it, Sandra or Pam or maybe Mary Kate or
someone else. There maybe something written about it on the internet
somewhere, and I'm sure Sandra can explain it better than I can. >>
Here's where I recently explained it. <g>
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
and it's also here
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com/HEM/194/jaunschooling.html
But the former has good stuff following, and better format.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>Great conversation. Thanks for sharing it. I might even show it to Lars.
>It was a nice conversation, fun and animated. I think he has something to
>think about.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/29/2004 11:23:54 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
~~~
Thanks! It was at LEAST 6 or 7 years ago when we first discussed that on
AOL. It was very profound for me and one of the things that most helped me on
my way to unschooling.
So thanks again. :)
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
~~~
Thanks! It was at LEAST 6 or 7 years ago when we first discussed that on
AOL. It was very profound for me and one of the things that most helped me on
my way to unschooling.
So thanks again. :)
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschooling1
Mary Ellen, I think this certainly a problem. When I was in
college, I started working toward a degree in education, preparing
to be a teacher. I liked the idea less and less as I took the
classes, and when I was nearly finished, I was sure I did NOT want
to be a teacher! I think that many people would go ahead and finish
since they were nearly done anyway. Many people end up having jobs
they dislike because they "don't want to waste their education".
They feel guilty about changing their minds.
Anyway, I got my degree in English literature instead. I have NEVER
regretted not becoming a teacher.
-Christy
be, rather than simply continuing a life-long path of exploring and
learning as they go?
college, I started working toward a degree in education, preparing
to be a teacher. I liked the idea less and less as I took the
classes, and when I was nearly finished, I was sure I did NOT want
to be a teacher! I think that many people would go ahead and finish
since they were nearly done anyway. Many people end up having jobs
they dislike because they "don't want to waste their education".
They feel guilty about changing their minds.
Anyway, I got my degree in English literature instead. I have NEVER
regretted not becoming a teacher.
-Christy
> Maybe that is part of the problem. Is there too much pressure puton young adults to get going with whatever their life's career will
be, rather than simply continuing a life-long path of exploring and
learning as they go?
>
debramannmorton
My 13 year old son asked me if I would pay his friend to tutor him. When asked why he wants to be tutored, he replied, so I can get smarter. Seems innocent enough. But, I know he is comparing himself to his schooled friends when he makes that assessment. He was in school up until 1 & 1/2 yrs ago. We are definitely still deschooling in a big way, and I feel like I am not providing enough " stimulation" or opportunities for him to feel that schooling is not the answer. Anyway, feedback would be appreciated. I am posting this rather quickly and can give more info, if needed. Thx.
Sandra Dodd
I'd be curious to know whether it was the friend's idea (whether he's convinced your son needs the help; our kids have had a couple of kids think so) or whether the friend just needs money, or your son is worried.
But in any case, if you don't feel deschooling "took" in your house, or your son was in school a long time, and he's already a teen, maybe it couldn't hurt too much.
Ways in which perhaps it could hurt, some:
The friend goes to school and says a homeschooled boy doesn't know any of that stuff.
The friend isn't very good at explaining whatever it is (odds are fairly good that he won't be, but he might be wonderful! Teachers are rarely told how to to present material. Some people are naturals at explaining and coaching.
Your son feels it's hard and frustrating and somehow sees that as evidence against natural learning, rather than evidence against traditional presentations of traditionally separated-out subject matter.
But it might not hurt.
Sandra
But in any case, if you don't feel deschooling "took" in your house, or your son was in school a long time, and he's already a teen, maybe it couldn't hurt too much.
Ways in which perhaps it could hurt, some:
The friend goes to school and says a homeschooled boy doesn't know any of that stuff.
The friend isn't very good at explaining whatever it is (odds are fairly good that he won't be, but he might be wonderful! Teachers are rarely told how to to present material. Some people are naturals at explaining and coaching.
Your son feels it's hard and frustrating and somehow sees that as evidence against natural learning, rather than evidence against traditional presentations of traditionally separated-out subject matter.
But it might not hurt.
Sandra
Jenny Cyphers
***When asked why he wants to be tutored, he replied, so I can get smarter.***
What are his natural abilities? Sometimes what a kid might need is recognition of what they ARE good at, what they ARE smart about. If he really wants a tutor, maybe one that helps him do something that he already really enjoys. For instance, if he's into cars, maybe being around another person who is also really into cars can help your kid expand his knowledge of that. Every time a kid does better at something they love, they will know more and feel more confident in what they know.
What does he want tutoring help with? Perhaps it really is something he's interested in knowing more about, to be smarter about.
***We are definitely still deschooling in a big way, and I feel like I am not providing enough " stimulation" or opportunities for him to feel that schooling is not the answer.***
Perhaps you could come up with a list of fun things that he might like to do. Include tutoring in that list. Then he could pick and choose out of that list. I do this with my own kids when they want to do things, especially things that cost money or are very time consuming. It helps them make clear choices about what is or isn't a high priority for their/our resources.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What are his natural abilities? Sometimes what a kid might need is recognition of what they ARE good at, what they ARE smart about. If he really wants a tutor, maybe one that helps him do something that he already really enjoys. For instance, if he's into cars, maybe being around another person who is also really into cars can help your kid expand his knowledge of that. Every time a kid does better at something they love, they will know more and feel more confident in what they know.
What does he want tutoring help with? Perhaps it really is something he's interested in knowing more about, to be smarter about.
***We are definitely still deschooling in a big way, and I feel like I am not providing enough " stimulation" or opportunities for him to feel that schooling is not the answer.***
Perhaps you could come up with a list of fun things that he might like to do. Include tutoring in that list. Then he could pick and choose out of that list. I do this with my own kids when they want to do things, especially things that cost money or are very time consuming. It helps them make clear choices about what is or isn't a high priority for their/our resources.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]