[email protected]

In a message dated 6/23/04 5:44:03 AM, superdiva@... writes:

<< Lately, I've been craving a nice big meal of pure unschooling -- so

I'm back. >>

Well let's stir it up some then!

I'm just back from Las Vegas, Nevada, where I spoke at a conference (and
Holly helped the first day) and said one thing new, that I had saved to say. I
said intro, middle and end, "You don't have to do things my way, but the fact
that my way works means you don't *have* to do things your way."


I think I might have hit my life's limit of people saying "Well, some things
we HAVE to do," or "We had no choice about..."

EEEEk!

A couple of people lately (one in person at the conference) I've said "You DO
have a choice" and gone on in some detail. The mom I was talking to was
unhappy about things with her three youngish adopted kids, VERY close in age, and
she was feelng trapped and stuck. I asked her if she had her car in the
parking lot. Yes. Charge card? Yes.

So I told her she didn't have to go home. She could go to the airport and
fly to Japan. (Forgot to ask if she had a passport, but it could've been
Honolulu, then, or Fairbanks, or the other end of Canada.) I said she could be
having plastic surgery by Tuesday and never come home.

Extreme?

Sheesh. If people have THAT much choice, surely they can choose to have
dinner later, or to move the TV to another room. "We had no choice" is just
starting to get to me.

People choose not to kill themselves. That's usually a good choice. But
choosing to stay with children means having the responsibility for that choice.
We chose to babysit a batch of kids today, so four extras. It will make our
whole day more exciting. I could have chosen the less exciting, less helpful.
I could choose to put them all in the van and drive them to their mom and
say "Changed my mind." At any moment, there are choices, and responsibilities,
and options.

Sandra

AM Brown

> Well let's stir it up some then!
>
> I think I might have hit my life's limit of people saying "Well, some
things
> we HAVE to do," or "We had no choice about..."
>
> EEEEk!
>"We had no choice" is just starting to get to me.

Thank you! This is my pet peeve/hot button issue! I believe that
*everything* is a choice - there is always choice. Yes, even paying taxes,
and standing in line at the DMV. You *choose* to do those things - maybe
because you want to follow the law, or maybe you agree principally but you
certainly have the choice to not do them. In life, there are always
choices, once you see that, it is pretty darn empowering. No longer are
you "stuck" or "trapped" you can actual say either I want to be here doing
this or I don't. I could go on and on but I won't :) Just wanted to keep
stirring :)

Anna

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/23/04 12:07:24 PM, ambdkf@... writes:

<< there is always choice. . . even . . . standing in line at the DMV. >>

Ah. We did that last week, to get Holly an ID.

And over the weekend I lost my driver's license, debit card, credit card, and
medical card. Most of that is easy to replace. But I will go back to the
DMV.

My choices:
When?
Where?
Do I take a book and a drink?
What do I wear for my lasts-eight-years (if you don't lose it) photo?
Do I do it cheerfully or toadlike?
If I do it toadlike, how do I justify that, KNOWING how DMV is, and having
been to many such offices over 35 years?

Lots of choices, but I'm hoping to choose tie-dye, a drink with ice, a
merrily distracting magazine, and to be happy the loss wasn't worse. Nobody used my
debit or charge cards, so it's likely the whole set (they were in a little
envelope, not a wallet) is in some dumpster in Las Vegas. A relatively good
place for them to be. Not the best, but not the worst!

Sandra

AM Brown

> My choices:
> When?
> Where?
> Do I take a book and a drink?
> What do I wear for my lasts-eight-years (if you don't lose it) photo?
> Do I do it cheerfully or toadlike?
> If I do it toadlike, how do I justify that, KNOWING how DMV is, and
having
> been to many such offices over 35 years?
>

All that reminds me of my other ah ha moment related to this. We can
always choose our reaction, we can choose to be happy. Things will happen
not in our control but we can choose to be miserable and feel powerless or
choose to be happy, grateful, empowered. That philosophy has changed my
life.

Anna

eriksmama2001

I, too, am choosing to stir the pot:

Sandra, I agree, we DO have these choices. I could even choose more
hurtful and harmful ones for myself or others. I choose to accept the
consequences of my actions. My choosen moral belief is "to try to do
no harm". This is merely MY choice, and I am willing to live without
regrets or guilt for my choices. Many people do not want to live with
the consequences of their choosen path. Sometimes one's CHOOSEN path
IS hard, but one CAN opt-out at any time. (young children in our
culture do not have this same option)

I choose the joy of knowing: IT IS MY CHOICE TO BE IN THIS SITUATION,
whatever it is. There is no trap. I am not stuck. It is my life.
Neither do I choose to obstruct my child or anyone else in choosing
their own life path. It is not mine to choose. I want them to share
the same joy of freedom to choose.

I'm glad to see some people "get it".

Pat

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/23/04 5:44:03 AM, superdiva@a... writes:
>
> << Lately, I've been craving a nice big meal of pure unschooling --
so
>
> I'm back. >>
>
> Well let's stir it up some then!
>
> I'm just back from Las Vegas, Nevada, where I spoke at a conference
(and
> Holly helped the first day) and said one thing new, that I had
saved to say. I
> said intro, middle and end, "You don't have to do things my way,
but the fact
> that my way works means you don't *have* to do things your way."
>
>
> I think I might have hit my life's limit of people saying "Well,
some things
> we HAVE to do," or "We had no choice about..."
>
> EEEEk!
>
> A couple of people lately (one in person at the conference) I've
said "You DO
> have a choice" and gone on in some detail. The mom I was talking
to was
> unhappy about things with her three youngish adopted kids, VERY
close in age, and
> she was feelng trapped and stuck. I asked her if she had her car
in the
> parking lot. Yes. Charge card? Yes.
>
> So I told her she didn't have to go home. She could go to the
airport and
> fly to Japan. (Forgot to ask if she had a passport, but it
could've been
> Honolulu, then, or Fairbanks, or the other end of Canada.) I said
she could be
> having plastic surgery by Tuesday and never come home.
>
> Extreme?
>
> Sheesh. If people have THAT much choice, surely they can choose to
have
> dinner later, or to move the TV to another room. "We had no
choice" is just
> starting to get to me.
>
> People choose not to kill themselves. That's usually a good
choice. But
> choosing to stay with children means having the responsibility for
that choice.
> We chose to babysit a batch of kids today, so four extras. It will
make our
> whole day more exciting. I could have chosen the less exciting,
less helpful.
> I could choose to put them all in the van and drive them to their
mom and
> say "Changed my mind." At any moment, there are choices, and
responsibilities,
> and options.
>
> Sandra

allyvron33

Hi all,
I'm a lurker in this group, but this thread is my life at this
moment, so I'm hoping I can get some advice...

My mom recently got divorced, and is now living with me and my
family. I think she is very depressed - and I know the symptoms well.
I also went through a major depression from mid teens through mid
twenties, that no drug or therapy seemed to help. What finally did
help was - you guessed it - CHOOSING to be happy, and to take
responsibility for my life. Since then, I use this technique all the
time, and I feel like there is very little I can't handle or deal
with. It IS very empowering.
I have tried to explain this idea to my mom, to help her deal with
some of the anxiety and "negative-thinking" issues that she is going
through, but I don't think she is truly understanding what I mean.

So, does anyone have ideas on how to help her understand that she has
a choice? That she can choose to be depressed and feel out of
control, or that she can *take back* control of her life! I have
shared my story with her - which she didn't know, since my family was
very "hands-off" when it came to my depression - partially my fault,
I know. Anyway, I don't want her to feel like she is being a burden
to me, or that we don't want her here, because we do... so I feel
like its a fine line between trying to help and being critical. I
mean, I CHOSE to let her live here, and I am choosing to make it
work, but that means helping her become whole again, because her
depression is having an impact on our family, particularly my 4yo
dd. That's another thread though... and I think just a symptom of
this issue.
I feel like I give pep talks all the time, which is fine, but it
doesn't seem to be helping. She also doesn't want to see a
therapist; she says I'm more helpful than they are - but it is
putting a lot of pressure on me to help her, and I don't think I'm
succeeding.

Sorry this is so long.
Any suggestions?

Thanks, Allyson


--- In [email protected], "eriksmama2001"
<scubamama@e...> wrote:
>
> I, too, am choosing to stir the pot:
>
> Sandra, I agree, we DO have these choices. I could even choose more
> hurtful and harmful ones for myself or others. I choose to accept
the
> consequences of my actions. My choosen moral belief is "to try to
do
> no harm". This is merely MY choice, and I am willing to live
without
> regrets or guilt for my choices. Many people do not want to live
with
> the consequences of their choosen path. Sometimes one's CHOOSEN
path
> IS hard, but one CAN opt-out at any time. (young children in our
> culture do not have this same option)
>
> I choose the joy of knowing: IT IS MY CHOICE TO BE IN THIS
SITUATION,
> whatever it is. There is no trap. I am not stuck. It is my life.
> Neither do I choose to obstruct my child or anyone else in choosing
> their own life path. It is not mine to choose. I want them to share
> the same joy of freedom to choose.
>
> I'm glad to see some people "get it".
>
> Pat
>
> --- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 6/23/04 5:44:03 AM, superdiva@a... writes:
> >
> > << Lately, I've been craving a nice big meal of pure unschooling -
-
> so
> >
> > I'm back. >>
> >
> > Well let's stir it up some then!
> >
> > I'm just back from Las Vegas, Nevada, where I spoke at a
conference
> (and
> > Holly helped the first day) and said one thing new, that I had
> saved to say. I
> > said intro, middle and end, "You don't have to do things my way,
> but the fact
> > that my way works means you don't *have* to do things your way."
> >
> >
> > I think I might have hit my life's limit of people saying "Well,
> some things
> > we HAVE to do," or "We had no choice about..."
> >
> > EEEEk!
> >
> > A couple of people lately (one in person at the conference) I've
> said "You DO
> > have a choice" and gone on in some detail. The mom I was talking
> to was
> > unhappy about things with her three youngish adopted kids, VERY
> close in age, and
> > she was feelng trapped and stuck. I asked her if she had her car
> in the
> > parking lot. Yes. Charge card? Yes.
> >
> > So I told her she didn't have to go home. She could go to the
> airport and
> > fly to Japan. (Forgot to ask if she had a passport, but it
> could've been
> > Honolulu, then, or Fairbanks, or the other end of Canada.) I
said
> she could be
> > having plastic surgery by Tuesday and never come home.
> >
> > Extreme?
> >
> > Sheesh. If people have THAT much choice, surely they can choose
to
> have
> > dinner later, or to move the TV to another room. "We had no
> choice" is just
> > starting to get to me.
> >
> > People choose not to kill themselves. That's usually a good
> choice. But
> > choosing to stay with children means having the responsibility
for
> that choice.
> > We chose to babysit a batch of kids today, so four extras. It
will
> make our
> > whole day more exciting. I could have chosen the less exciting,
> less helpful.
> > I could choose to put them all in the van and drive them to
their
> mom and
> > say "Changed my mind." At any moment, there are choices, and
> responsibilities,
> > and options.
> >
> > Sandra

Barbara Chase

Hi Allyson,

Is your Mom getting something out of choosing to be depressed? Some
unconscious need that has to be met... I wish I had an example, but that is
the thought that crossed my mind as I read your story. If you knew what
need were creating the depression, then it would be easier for you and her
to find ways to help meet that need in a more healthy way for everyone.

One good way to tap into what the unconscious negative thoughts (or core
beliefs, I call them) might be is to take a piece of paper divided into two
columns. Then on the left write a positive statement to counter the
negative thoughts (for your Mom, something like "My life is happy and
fulfilling now") and on the right side write whatever immediately comes to
the mind w/o any thought about it. If nothing comes, then write the
positive statement again. Do this about 20-30 times, and you'll be amazed
what can come up.

I realize that I'm making it sound really easy, and I know it's not. I
think back on my own life, and know that when I have created a negative
pattern (like getting angry and using that to push others away from me)
it's really related to a fear (that I am not loveable) -- so I have a need
to create a situation where I can have an external obvious excuse as to why
the person may have rejected me (the anger and the pushing away) rather
than to leave open the possibility that they would reject the real me
because I'm not loveable. Once I saw the underlying need that I had, I was
able to choose to love myself - which then meant that I wanted to be loving
to myself and not push people away. Mine is a different story, but perhaps
there is something similar going on for your Mom.



ciao
--bc--

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/24/04 10:24:20 AM, acarter@... writes:

<< no drug or therapy seemed to help. What finally did

help was - you guessed it - CHOOSING to be happy, and to take

responsibility for my life. >>

Too bad you didn't have a therapist who could've helped you do that.

<<So, does anyone have ideas on how to help her understand that she has

a choice? That she can choose to be depressed and feel out of

control, or that she can *take back* control of her life! >>

If she's in the deep sludge of chemical imbalance, she can't "just choose,"
but if she gets back to the point where she has choices, THEN she can choose to
stay afloat up in the light or plunge back down where the choices don't exist.

Brain chemistry changes, when depression is advanced.

When people do know tricks for cheering up or keeping positive, they can
avoid future bouts as live goes on, but those tricks might not help at all, nor
even be perceivable, to those who are severely depressed.

-=-Anyway, I don't want her to feel like she is being a burden

to me, or that we don't want her here, because we do... -=-

If she chooses not to try to get help for her depression, she might be a
negative influence on your children.

-=-her

depression is having an impact on our family, particularly my 4yo

dd. That's another thread though... and I think just a symptom of

this issue.-=-

"Symptom"? It's a result, an affect. Don't sacrifice your child's 4th year,
or 5th, if your mom won't accept help. And don't think that positive
affirmations and cheery curtains can undo clinical depression. (But when she IS out
of the depression, don't put up vampire curtains and the Music of Death, if
you know what I mean.)

-=-She also doesn't want to see a

therapist; she says I'm more helpful than they are --=-

She probably enjoys your attention more than she would enjoy paying money and
spending time with strangers who might press her to really change.

-=-but it is putting a lot of pressure on me to help her, and I don't think
I'm

succeeding.-=-

Her pressure transferred to you could turn to a codependency that will do
your family unit much harm.

Sandra

[email protected]

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:21:23 -0000 "allyvron33" <acarter@...>
writes:
> My mom recently got divorced, and is now living with me and my
> family. I think she is very depressed - and I know the symptoms well.
> I also went through a major depression from mid teens through mid
> twenties, that no drug or therapy seemed to help. What finally did
> help was - you guessed it - CHOOSING to be happy, and to take
> responsibility for my life.

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about depression as an illness,
and also, of course, the etiology and course of a depressive episode will
be different for everyone. It's great that you were able to chose to get
your life back on track and it worked for you - I did something like that
when I found out I was pregnant 12 years ago, and decided to pretty much
change everything and get my life on track so I could be a good parent.
At that point my life was pretty messed up, and although I think the
therapy I got helped, the real change was something I did.

However... I also have had periodic episodes of depression going back 30
years. When I'm depressed, in a clinical sense, no amount of "pep talks"
help. I cry about traffic, I cry about spilled milk, and I cry about
nothing at all. Everything takes an enormous amount of effort - in some
ways it's like having a bad flu and trying to drag myself throughthe day.
And what helps is getting myself onto an antidepressant that works for me
and taking it for a week or so, until it starts to kick in and lift the
fog. I suppose it is me choosing to take the pills, but if they weren't
available (and the ones that work for me weren't until I was in my early
twenties) I wouldn't be able to just "choose" to be happy, any more than
my diabetic grandpa could "choose" to make more insulin or my dad can
"chose" to breathe when having an asthma attack.

You can, however, choose to stop taking on your mom's problems, while
still supporting her in finding help. I think a thorough medical check-up
would be a good first step, and then finding a support system besides
you, therapy or a group or whatever. You might also consider figuring out
where your boundaries are, and what you're willing to do for your mom and
what you're not... keeping in mind your own needs and the needs of your
family.

Dar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AM Brown

> So, does anyone have ideas on how to help her understand that she has
> a choice? That she can choose to be depressed and feel out of
> control, or that she can *take back* control of her life!

I just gave the book "Happiness is a Choice" to a friend's husband who was
really struggling. It really spoke to him and he is making huge changes.
It is a very powerful, small, simple book. Maybe she would be open to
reading it and having your experience there too, would make it even more
powerful.

Good luck!
Anna

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/24/2004 11:25:22 AM Central Standard Time,
acarter@... writes:

So, does anyone have ideas on how to help her understand that she has
a choice? That she can choose to be depressed and feel out of
control, or that she can *take back* control of her life! I have
shared my story with her - which she didn't know, since my family was
very "hands-off" when it came to my depression - partially my fault,
I know


~~~

Since depression, even short term, is most likely a brain chemical thing,
you won't be able to just talk her out of it. Time heals some things, but if
she's truly depressed, she'd be better off with an anti-depressant to help her
get through that time.

Depressed people mostly lack the ability to make the kind of choice you
describe. It's not just a problem of right thinking. It's chemical. And even
if it's not chemical in your mother's case (I bet it is), it would be better
to get medication for it sooner rather than later. Long term, undealth with
depression is one of the most destructive forces in the world.

I, too, believe in having a choice in how I choose to react or respond to th
ings in my life. I've believed it all my life. But when I was clinically
and suicidally depressed, it was simply impossible to make any choices. It's
just not that easy for the person whose brain chemistry is working against
them.

Her primary care doctor will be able to prescribe an anti-depressant.
Sometimes you have to try different ones to find one that's tolerated. I'd say
don't give up on it until she finds one that works.

I hope she feels better soon.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

allyvron33

Sandra,
Thanks for your insight. A few more details, and some thoughts...



> <<So, does anyone have ideas on how to help her understand that she
has
>
> a choice? That she can choose to be depressed and feel out of
>
> control, or that she can *take back* control of her life! >>
>
> If she's in the deep sludge of chemical imbalance, she can't "just
choose,"
> but if she gets back to the point where she has choices, THEN she
can choose to
> stay afloat up in the light or plunge back down where the choices
don't exist.
>
> Brain chemistry changes, when depression is advanced.
>
> When people do know tricks for cheering up or keeping positive,
they can
> avoid future bouts as live goes on, but those tricks might not help
at all, nor
> even be perceivable, to those who are severely depressed.
>


**She has been taking Prozac for about 12 years now, and her doctor's
solution to her increasing depression was to up her dose.


> -=-Anyway, I don't want her to feel like she is being a burden
>
> to me, or that we don't want her here, because we do... -=-
>
> If she chooses not to try to get help for her depression, she might
be a
> negative influence on your children.
>
> -=-her
>
> depression is having an impact on our family, particularly my 4yo
>
> dd. That's another thread though... and I think just a symptom of
>
> this issue.-=-
>
> "Symptom"? It's a result, an affect. Don't sacrifice your child's
4th year,
> or 5th, if your mom won't accept help. And don't think that
positive
> affirmations and cheery curtains can undo clinical depression.
(But when she IS out
> of the depression, don't put up vampire curtains and the Music of
Death, if
> you know what I mean.)

**I do understand the effect it is having on my daughter, although
they do not spend time alone together (my mom is disabled and unable
to keep up with her physically), so I am usually there to iron out
the situation. It mostly manifests itself (between mom and dd) as
impatience on my mother's part, and excessive worrying about
unimportant things. For instance, dd wants to make her own chocolate
milk, and my mom wants to either stop her, or jump right in and do it
for her, so dd doesn't spill. I feel its more important to let dd
express her growing independence, but mom is more worried about the
mess. She intellectually understands what I am doing with dd, but
can't seem to let go of her old notions about what kids should and
shouldn't do. Of course, the choice issue is central to unschooling,
since we have to trust our kids enough to let them choose too.

My hope is that if we can get her out of this funk, that she will be
able to enjoy those types of moments for what they are - wonderful
steps in my daughter's life - instead of potential disasters.
I want her to see that she can choose to react differently to those
types of situations; that letting go of some of her anxiety will be
beneficial to us all.

>
> -=-She also doesn't want to see a
>
> therapist; she says I'm more helpful than they are --=-
>
> She probably enjoys your attention more than she would enjoy paying
money and
> spending time with strangers who might press her to really change.

**My thoughts, too... but she just divorced my stepdad, who never had
time to deal with her issues or feelings, and would tell her so
whenever she brought them up. So I don't feel like I can tell her
not to bother me with them.
>
> -=-but it is putting a lot of pressure on me to help her, and I
don't think
> I'm
>
> succeeding.-=-
>
> Her pressure transferred to you could turn to a codependency that
will do
> your family unit much harm.
>
> Sandra

**I know that I will probably have to sit her down and really let her
know how I'm feeling, but I fear pushing her away.
We can choose what we do, but not how others will react to it!
I am trying hard to let her negative energy affect me, but some days
it does. That's my biggest fear.
Having choices, and retaining that ability, takes a lot of work - in
any situation, not just this one. For me anyways. I always fight
that urge to not make the choice, to let life wash over me - but I
know what that hole feels like - I was there. I'm not going back.

Allyson

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/24/2004 4:58:24 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
acarter@... writes:

**She has been taking Prozac for about 12 years now, and her doctor's
solution to her increasing depression was to up her dose.
------------

Prozac without counselling isn't sufficient.

But as she IS on Prozac, maybe your suggestions (and some ofthe good stuff
suggested by others here) wouldn't be so far from useful as I had thought.

The Prozac dose ranges from one to four caps apiece. Did they up her to two?
If so, maybe try that for a bit and work on cheering-up tricks for a bit.

And since she's newly divorced, that's another current issue that will pass
with time.

-=- For instance, dd wants to make her own chocolate
milk, and my mom wants to either stop her, or jump right in and do it
for her, so dd doesn't spill. I feel its more important to let dd
express her growing independence, but mom is more worried about the
mess. -=-

Your mom helping her sometimes won't prevent your daughter from doing it
ever. You could just remind your daughterthat grandma's different. I wouldn't
worry that your mom's reactions will gum up unschooling.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<Anyway, I don't want her to feel like she is being a burden
to me, or that we don't want her here, because we do... so I feel
like its a fine line between trying to help and being critical. I
mean, I CHOSE to let her live here, and I am choosing to make it
work, but that means helping her become whole again, because her
depression is having an impact on our family, particularly my 4yo
dd. That's another thread though... and I think just a symptom of
this issue.
I feel like I give pep talks all the time, which is fine, but it
doesn't seem to be helping. She also doesn't want to see a
therapist; she says I'm more helpful than they are - but it is
putting a lot of pressure on me to help her, and I don't think I'm
succeeding.>>>>


Hi, Allyson

When my mother moved to the USA and got married, for a while things were
very good. Then she and my stepfather had some issues, that caused her to
start feeling trapped and miserable. Her best friend then moved away, and
they also had a falling out, so then my Mum was also isolated. She felt that
I was the only person to whom she could talk about her private matters, and
was probably very depressed for a long time. It was also very repetitive.

I finally had to tell her that *I* could not be her therapist any more. I
was not really helping her, other than to be a small valve to let off a tiny
amount of steam - the mains pressure was never being turned down. I begged
her to see a real therapist, or some kind of support group. Eventually she
did, and they both did some marriage counseling therapy also. However that
stopped on my stepfather's timetable.

Then Mum wanted to tell me all about the horrible time she was having in
therapy! I remember her telling me with astonishment, "Do you know that I am
depressed?" Her history in our life has been that she has always sought to
make me and the other people around her responsible for her feelings. The
concept of owning your own feelings eluded her for most of my life, if not
her own. I felt burdened by the horror stories of her childhood that she
desired to tell me, in an effort to explain and excuse her own parenting. It
has taken a long time for me to forgive, but having Jayn and working for a
different way has helped.

After 22 years of determined misery, it built up inside her so much that her
brain exploded. She had a brain aneurism rupture, fatefully on a Saturday
when her dh was home. He is also a doctor. She turned septic in the ICU,
then made a miracle recovery (8% chance of living at one time) and continues
in rehab and OT. It has been 2 years. She also goes regularly and frequently
to a psychiatrist, both to monitor the interaction of her many medications,
and to talk. For the first time in her life she has become grateful and
joyous most of the time, and loving towards my stepfather. But it took a
serious life threatening event to do it. They are looking forward to his
eventual retirement, so that they can spend more time together.

Robyn L. Coburn




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/24/2004 5:58:27 PM Central Standard Time,
acarter@... writes:

**She has been taking Prozac for about 12 years now, and her doctor's
solution to her increasing depression was to up her dose.




~~~

That's a long time to be on one drug. I wonder what it would be like to
wean off and try something else, even nothing else. It's obviously no longer
working.

I think I'd find another doctor who was willing to look at the whole
problem, too.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

allyvron33

In my earlier post, I neglected to mention that my mom is taking
Prozac, and has been for a long time.
I also didn't mean to imply that she could just "wish" her depression
away, but that positive thinking does have its place. I feel like
what I'm doing is NOT enough, but she is choosing to not go to
therapy or talk to her friends, and relying on me. Part of what I
want her to see is that by choosing to alienate herself from other
people that care for her will only serve to deepen her depression.
She has friends who want to help, but after they get together, my mom
tells me that she felt she couldn't relate to their conversation.

She went to see her doctor, who upped her dosage of Prozac and told
her it was "normal" to be depressed after a divorce.

My main issue, as it realtes to my family, is how her negative
thinking and feelings of insecurity manifest themselves with my dd. I
am having a hard time making her see the negative impact she often
has on my daughter, who is almost 4 and very sensitive to criticism.
Often her reactions are needlessly harsh. Everyone has bad days,
myself included, but I guess I can actively *think* about my reaction
to "push button" issues, and CHOOSE to let it go and act like the
adult. When I try to broach the subject, she feels that I'm being
critical, or "overprotective", or that I'm coddling dd.

I guess there's no easy solution. Thanks for your thoughts.
Allyson

--- In [email protected], freeform@j... wrote:
>
> On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:21:23 -0000 "allyvron33" <acarter@n...>
> writes:
> > My mom recently got divorced, and is now living with me and my
> > family. I think she is very depressed - and I know the symptoms
well.
> > I also went through a major depression from mid teens through mid
> > twenties, that no drug or therapy seemed to help. What finally
did
> > help was - you guessed it - CHOOSING to be happy, and to take
> > responsibility for my life.
>
> I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about depression as an
illness,
> and also, of course, the etiology and course of a depressive
episode will
> be different for everyone. It's great that you were able to chose
to get
> your life back on track and it worked for you - I did something
like that
> when I found out I was pregnant 12 years ago, and decided to pretty
much
> change everything and get my life on track so I could be a good
parent.
> At that point my life was pretty messed up, and although I think the
> therapy I got helped, the real change was something I did.
>
> However... I also have had periodic episodes of depression going
back 30
> years. When I'm depressed, in a clinical sense, no amount of "pep
talks"
> help. I cry about traffic, I cry about spilled milk, and I cry about
> nothing at all. Everything takes an enormous amount of effort - in
some
> ways it's like having a bad flu and trying to drag myself
throughthe day.
> And what helps is getting myself onto an antidepressant that works
for me
> and taking it for a week or so, until it starts to kick in and lift
the
> fog. I suppose it is me choosing to take the pills, but if they
weren't
> available (and the ones that work for me weren't until I was in my
early
> twenties) I wouldn't be able to just "choose" to be happy, any more
than
> my diabetic grandpa could "choose" to make more insulin or my dad
can
> "chose" to breathe when having an asthma attack.
>
> You can, however, choose to stop taking on your mom's problems,
while
> still supporting her in finding help. I think a thorough medical
check-up
> would be a good first step, and then finding a support system
besides
> you, therapy or a group or whatever. You might also consider
figuring out
> where your boundaries are, and what you're willing to do for your
mom and
> what you're not... keeping in mind your own needs and the needs of
your
> family.
>
> Dar
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

allyvron33

Unfortunately, I don't think she'd be open to switching doctors -
she's been going to him for a long time and likes and trusts him.
I agree about switching meds, but maybe I'll see how the next couple
of weeks go, and then I'll talk to her about it. I know she wants to
feel better, she's just not really seeing the way out on her own, and
I feel like I have a lot on my plate right now... too much to go into
at this moment.
Thanks, Allyson

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/24/2004 5:58:27 PM Central Standard Time,
> acarter@n... writes:
>
> **She has been taking Prozac for about 12 years now, and her
doctor's
> solution to her increasing depression was to up her dose.
>
>
>
>
> ~~~
>
> That's a long time to be on one drug. I wonder what it would be
like to
> wean off and try something else, even nothing else. It's obviously
no longer
> working.
>
> I think I'd find another doctor who was willing to look at the
whole
> problem, too.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/24/2004 5:12:21 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
That's a long time to be on one drug. I wonder what it would be like to
wean off and try something else, even nothing else. It's obviously no
longer
working.
==========

I don't see why anyone would leave a patient on an antidepressant longterm
myself. With therapy/training, it seems six months or a year should be WAY
plenty. But then lots of people might not have the intrapersonal
knowledge/desire/interest in examining how they can live more happily.


Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

allyvron33

Thanks for you thoughts... I'll have to think about motivation.
I do think that you're right about some of it (a lot of it?)being
fear based. It's just so perplexing, because I always saw her as a
strong woman who could stand up to anything.
I guess we all have our limits.
Allyson

--- In [email protected], Barbara Chase <barb@n...>
wrote:
> Hi Allyson,
>
> Is your Mom getting something out of choosing to be depressed? Some
> unconscious need that has to be met... I wish I had an example, but
that is
> the thought that crossed my mind as I read your story. If you knew
what
> need were creating the depression, then it would be easier for you
and her
> to find ways to help meet that need in a more healthy way for
everyone.
>
> One good way to tap into what the unconscious negative thoughts (or
core
> beliefs, I call them) might be is to take a piece of paper divided
into two
> columns. Then on the left write a positive statement to counter the
> negative thoughts (for your Mom, something like "My life is happy
and
> fulfilling now") and on the right side write whatever immediately
comes to
> the mind w/o any thought about it. If nothing comes, then write the
> positive statement again. Do this about 20-30 times, and you'll be
amazed
> what can come up.
>
> I realize that I'm making it sound really easy, and I know it's
not. I
> think back on my own life, and know that when I have created a
negative
> pattern (like getting angry and using that to push others away from
me)
> it's really related to a fear (that I am not loveable) -- so I have
a need
> to create a situation where I can have an external obvious excuse
as to why
> the person may have rejected me (the anger and the pushing away)
rather
> than to leave open the possibility that they would reject the real
me
> because I'm not loveable. Once I saw the underlying need that I
had, I was
> able to choose to love myself - which then meant that I wanted to
be loving
> to myself and not push people away. Mine is a different story, but
perhaps
> there is something similar going on for your Mom.
>
>
>
> ciao
> --bc--

Tia Leschke

>
>
>Since depression, even short term, is most likely a brain chemical thing,
>you won't be able to just talk her out of it. Time heals some things,
>but if
>she's truly depressed, she'd be better off with an anti-depressant to
>help her
>get through that time.

I'm not sure that's true. I think when depression just seems to hit out of
the blue it's likely chemical. But I've had what I call situational
depression a couple of times, both related to the ugly aftermath of the
breakdown of my first marriage. It was just like all the descriptions of
clinical depression that I've read about. What helped then was counselling.
I didn't need any antidepressants. Now if I'd let it go far enough that I
couldn't motivate myself to go for counselling, then I probably would have
needed them, at least for a while.
Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/24/2004 6:30:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
leschke@... writes:
I'm not sure that's true. I think when depression just seems to hit out of
the blue it's likely chemical.
----------

I think there's always buildup.
"Seems" to hit out of the blue is the point at which the low-level stuff
finally started to show the individual instead of just to all the people around
her (in my experience).

-=- Now if I'd let it go far enough that I
couldn't motivate myself to go for counselling, then I probably would have
needed them, at least for a while.
-=-

Anytime it's gone too far, and it's past "situational" or low-level, I don't
think "cheer up" works anymore.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I have depressive episodes almost every year in September or October (and
sometimes again in April), and they often do just come out of the blue.
One year we were on a camping trip with a bunch of homeschoolers, and on
Sunday morning I was sweeping our my tent and suddenly started crying,
and feeling incredibly sad. I started crying again on the drive down the
mountain, and the got home and started crying again. It was just the
strangest thing, and it felt so out of my control.

I ended up calling a good friend and moving in with her for a few days,
and getting some paxil from someone and in a few days I did start to feel
better.

Usually they're a little more gradual, like I'll start to rapidly go down
hill over a period of a few days (and Rain say, "Um, Mom? Do you think
maybe you need some of those pills about now?"). But they're definitely
linked to the time of year, rather than anything that's going on in my
life at the time.

Dar
On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 23:30:41 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
> In a message dated 6/24/2004 6:30:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> leschke@... writes:
> I'm not sure that's true. I think when depression just seems to hit
> out of
> the blue it's likely chemical.
> ----------
>
> I think there's always buildup.
> "Seems" to hit out of the blue is the point at which the low-level
> stuff
> finally started to show the individual instead of just to all the
> people around
> her (in my experience).
>
> -=- Now if I'd let it go far enough that I
> couldn't motivate myself to go for counselling, then I probably
> would have
> needed them, at least for a while.
> -=-
>
> Anytime it's gone too far, and it's past "situational" or low-level,
> I don't
> think "cheer up" works anymore.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar.
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/fHIqlB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

allyvron33

Robyn,
My mom tries not to burden me by rehashing the same thing all the
time, so she holds it in, which makes it worse. By the time she lets
it out, she is frantic - after worring about what I'll say or think
(or whatever "it" is) she is sure that the problem is the end of the
world. She expects me to react by asking her to move out, or some
other drastic move.
I'm sure if she was telling me about her problems all the time, it
would be very tiresome... but she's a "stuffer" and tries to pretend
everythings ok. I think, for her, letting it out more would be good,
because it wouldn't have that chance to build and build. That
inability to tell me (or anyone else)about what she's feeling is what
I see as being fear-based and tied into self esteem.
I'm glad that your mom had her "epiphany" after her brush with
death. My mom had a similar experience, (not an aneurism) 12 years
ago, and had to relearn all the basics as well. Talk, walk, eat, etc
etc etc. In her case though, I think it made her dependent and
unsure of herself, unable to handle or do things. Part of that I
believe is the nature of the injury, and part of it has to do with
how she now sees herself. Self worth is very dependent on all of us
being able to do things for ourselves. Disability changes that. For
some people, it definitely is life affirming. They stop taking
things for granted, and realize what's important in life. I just
wish I knew how to show that to her. My own example is all I have.
Thanks, Allyson

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@c...>
wrote:
> <<<Anyway, I don't want her to feel like she is being a burden
> to me, or that we don't want her here, because we do... so I feel
> like its a fine line between trying to help and being critical. I
> mean, I CHOSE to let her live here, and I am choosing to make it
> work, but that means helping her become whole again, because her
> depression is having an impact on our family, particularly my 4yo
> dd. That's another thread though... and I think just a symptom of
> this issue.
> I feel like I give pep talks all the time, which is fine, but it
> doesn't seem to be helping. She also doesn't want to see a
> therapist; she says I'm more helpful than they are - but it is
> putting a lot of pressure on me to help her, and I don't think I'm
> succeeding.>>>>
>
>
> Hi, Allyson
>
> When my mother moved to the USA and got married, for a while things
were
> very good. Then she and my stepfather had some issues, that caused
her to
> start feeling trapped and miserable. Her best friend then moved
away, and
> they also had a falling out, so then my Mum was also isolated. She
felt that
> I was the only person to whom she could talk about her private
matters, and
> was probably very depressed for a long time. It was also very
repetitive.
>
> I finally had to tell her that *I* could not be her therapist any
more. I
> was not really helping her, other than to be a small valve to let
off a tiny
> amount of steam - the mains pressure was never being turned down. I
begged
> her to see a real therapist, or some kind of support group.
Eventually she
> did, and they both did some marriage counseling therapy also.
However that
> stopped on my stepfather's timetable.
>
> Then Mum wanted to tell me all about the horrible time she was
having in
> therapy! I remember her telling me with astonishment, "Do you know
that I am
> depressed?" Her history in our life has been that she has always
sought to
> make me and the other people around her responsible for her
feelings. The
> concept of owning your own feelings eluded her for most of my life,
if not
> her own. I felt burdened by the horror stories of her childhood
that she
> desired to tell me, in an effort to explain and excuse her own
parenting. It
> has taken a long time for me to forgive, but having Jayn and
working for a
> different way has helped.
>
> After 22 years of determined misery, it built up inside her so much
that her
> brain exploded. She had a brain aneurism rupture, fatefully on a
Saturday
> when her dh was home. He is also a doctor. She turned septic in the
ICU,
> then made a miracle recovery (8% chance of living at one time) and
continues
> in rehab and OT. It has been 2 years. She also goes regularly and
frequently
> to a psychiatrist, both to monitor the interaction of her many
medications,
> and to talk. For the first time in her life she has become grateful
and
> joyous most of the time, and loving towards my stepfather. But it
took a
> serious life threatening event to do it. They are looking forward
to his
> eventual retirement, so that they can spend more time together.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004

Robyn Coburn

<<<Self worth is very dependent on all of us
being able to do things for ourselves.>>>>

That is the idea that would be helpful if she were able to apply it to your
dd.

Thanks for being so open.

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004

J. Stauffer

test
----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Chase" <barb@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 12:23 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: choices and freedom


> Hi Allyson,
>
> Is your Mom getting something out of choosing to be depressed? Some
> unconscious need that has to be met... I wish I had an example, but that
is
> the thought that crossed my mind as I read your story. If you knew what
> need were creating the depression, then it would be easier for you and her
> to find ways to help meet that need in a more healthy way for everyone.
>
> One good way to tap into what the unconscious negative thoughts (or core
> beliefs, I call them) might be is to take a piece of paper divided into
two
> columns. Then on the left write a positive statement to counter the
> negative thoughts (for your Mom, something like "My life is happy and
> fulfilling now") and on the right side write whatever immediately comes to
> the mind w/o any thought about it. If nothing comes, then write the
> positive statement again. Do this about 20-30 times, and you'll be amazed
> what can come up.
>
> I realize that I'm making it sound really easy, and I know it's not. I
> think back on my own life, and know that when I have created a negative
> pattern (like getting angry and using that to push others away from me)
> it's really related to a fear (that I am not loveable) -- so I have a need
> to create a situation where I can have an external obvious excuse as to
why
> the person may have rejected me (the anger and the pushing away) rather
> than to leave open the possibility that they would reject the real me
> because I'm not loveable. Once I saw the underlying need that I had, I
was
> able to choose to love myself - which then meant that I wanted to be
loving
> to myself and not push people away. Mine is a different story, but
perhaps
> there is something similar going on for your Mom.
>
>
>
> ciao
> --bc--
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Deirdre Aycock

Allison (and group) - Thanks for sharing your situation with the group. I always enjoy hearing how other people think they would handle things--I am learning so much from this group!
I just want to add one nugget of info to the discussion on depression. In several studies on depression, regular exercise out-performed SSRI antidepressants (like Prozac) in effectiveness. Of course, I have no idea how to get your mother to take a walk every day and start lifting weights with Joyce Vedral, but it might actually help. Speaking of that Vedral woman, she has a book titled, I Can't Take it Any More: How to Get Up When You're Really Low. I had heard that she was "inspirational," but I didn't know she had written this book until I was looking for a copy of one of her books on weight-lifting. By the way, she's at least 50, so maybe you can get your mother turned on to her. Good luck!! Deirdre
----- Original Message -----
From: allyvron33
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 6:20 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: choices and freedom/ depression


Unfortunately, I don't think she'd be open to switching doctors -
she's been going to him for a long time and likes and trusts him.
I agree about switching meds, but maybe I'll see how the next couple
of weeks go, and then I'll talk to her about it. I know she wants to
feel better, she's just not really seeing the way out on her own, and
I feel like I have a lot on my plate right now... too much to go into
at this moment.
Thanks, Allyson

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/24/2004 5:58:27 PM Central Standard Time,
> acarter@n... writes:
>
> **She has been taking Prozac for about 12 years now, and her
doctor's
> solution to her increasing depression was to up her dose.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

eriksmama2001

Allyson wrote "self worth is very dependent on our being able to do
things for ourself".

This is the point of not having someone externally tell you what to do
(i.e. when/what to eat, go to bed, etc.). One can only learn self-
reliance if one has the opportunity to depend on oneself to make
decisions.

Pat

--- In [email protected], "allyvron33" <acarter@n...>
wrote:
> Robyn,
> My mom tries not to burden me by rehashing the same thing all the
> time, so she holds it in, which makes it worse. By the time she
lets
> it out, she is frantic - after worring about what I'll say or think
> (or whatever "it" is) she is sure that the problem is the end of
the
> world. She expects me to react by asking her to move out, or some
> other drastic move.
> I'm sure if she was telling me about her problems all the time, it
> would be very tiresome... but she's a "stuffer" and tries to
pretend
> everythings ok. I think, for her, letting it out more would be
good,
> because it wouldn't have that chance to build and build. That
> inability to tell me (or anyone else)about what she's feeling is
what
> I see as being fear-based and tied into self esteem.
> I'm glad that your mom had her "epiphany" after her brush with
> death. My mom had a similar experience, (not an aneurism) 12 years
> ago, and had to relearn all the basics as well. Talk, walk, eat,
etc
> etc etc. In her case though, I think it made her dependent and
> unsure of herself, unable to handle or do things. Part of that I
> believe is the nature of the injury, and part of it has to do with
> how she now sees herself. Self worth is very dependent on all of
us
> being able to do things for ourselves. Disability changes that.
For
> some people, it definitely is life affirming. They stop taking
> things for granted, and realize what's important in life. I just
> wish I knew how to show that to her. My own example is all I have.
> Thanks, Allyson
>
> --- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...>
> wrote:
> > <<<Anyway, I don't want her to feel like she is being a burden
> > to me, or that we don't want her here, because we do... so I feel
> > like its a fine line between trying to help and being critical.
I
> > mean, I CHOSE to let her live here, and I am choosing to make it
> > work, but that means helping her become whole again, because her
> > depression is having an impact on our family, particularly my 4yo
> > dd. That's another thread though... and I think just a symptom
of
> > this issue.
> > I feel like I give pep talks all the time, which is fine, but it
> > doesn't seem to be helping. She also doesn't want to see a
> > therapist; she says I'm more helpful than they are - but it is
> > putting a lot of pressure on me to help her, and I don't think
I'm
> > succeeding.>>>>
> >
> >
> > Hi, Allyson
> >
> > When my mother moved to the USA and got married, for a while
things
> were
> > very good. Then she and my stepfather had some issues, that
caused
> her to
> > start feeling trapped and miserable. Her best friend then moved
> away, and
> > they also had a falling out, so then my Mum was also isolated.
She
> felt that
> > I was the only person to whom she could talk about her private
> matters, and
> > was probably very depressed for a long time. It was also very
> repetitive.
> >
> > I finally had to tell her that *I* could not be her therapist any
> more. I
> > was not really helping her, other than to be a small valve to let
> off a tiny
> > amount of steam - the mains pressure was never being turned down.
I
> begged
> > her to see a real therapist, or some kind of support group.
> Eventually she
> > did, and they both did some marriage counseling therapy also.
> However that
> > stopped on my stepfather's timetable.
> >
> > Then Mum wanted to tell me all about the horrible time she was
> having in
> > therapy! I remember her telling me with astonishment, "Do you
know
> that I am
> > depressed?" Her history in our life has been that she has always
> sought to
> > make me and the other people around her responsible for her
> feelings. The
> > concept of owning your own feelings eluded her for most of my
life,
> if not
> > her own. I felt burdened by the horror stories of her childhood
> that she
> > desired to tell me, in an effort to explain and excuse her own
> parenting. It
> > has taken a long time for me to forgive, but having Jayn and
> working for a
> > different way has helped.
> >
> > After 22 years of determined misery, it built up inside her so
much
> that her
> > brain exploded. She had a brain aneurism rupture, fatefully on a
> Saturday
> > when her dh was home. He is also a doctor. She turned septic in
the
> ICU,
> > then made a miracle recovery (8% chance of living at one time)
and
> continues
> > in rehab and OT. It has been 2 years. She also goes regularly and
> frequently
> > to a psychiatrist, both to monitor the interaction of her many
> medications,
> > and to talk. For the first time in her life she has become
grateful
> and
> > joyous most of the time, and loving towards my stepfather. But it
> took a
> > serious life threatening event to do it. They are looking forward
> to his
> > eventual retirement, so that they can spend more time together.
> >
> > Robyn L. Coburn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004

allyvron33

I just wanted to thank everyone for all their ideas, advice and
input. You've given me lots to think about. I know we'll find a way
throught this... at least partially thanks to all of you.
My situation is complicated by lots of other circumstances, that I
just can't go into right now... but I'm going to choose to not let my
mom's issues consume me and my family. She is responsible for her
feelings and actions, and I can only control my own.

Thank you again!

Allyson


--- In [email protected], "Deirdre Aycock" <aycock@b...>
wrote:
> Allison (and group) - Thanks for sharing your situation with the
group. I always enjoy hearing how other people think they would
handle things--I am learning so much from this group!
> I just want to add one nugget of info to the discussion on
depression. In several studies on depression, regular exercise out-
performed SSRI antidepressants (like Prozac) in effectiveness. Of
course, I have no idea how to get your mother to take a walk every
day and start lifting weights with Joyce Vedral, but it might
actually help. Speaking of that Vedral woman, she has a book titled,
I Can't Take it Any More: How to Get Up When You're Really Low. I
had heard that she was "inspirational," but I didn't know she had
written this book until I was looking for a copy of one of her books
on weight-lifting. By the way, she's at least 50, so maybe you can
get your mother turned on to her. Good luck!! Deirdre
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: allyvron33
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 6:20 PM
> Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: choices and freedom/ depression
>
>
> Unfortunately, I don't think she'd be open to switching doctors -
> she's been going to him for a long time and likes and trusts him.
> I agree about switching meds, but maybe I'll see how the next
couple
> of weeks go, and then I'll talk to her about it. I know she
wants to
> feel better, she's just not really seeing the way out on her own,
and
> I feel like I have a lot on my plate right now... too much to go
into
> at this moment.
> Thanks, Allyson
>
> --- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 6/24/2004 5:58:27 PM Central Standard Time,
> > acarter@n... writes:
> >
> > **She has been taking Prozac for about 12 years now, and her
> doctor's
> > solution to her increasing depression was to up her dose.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

pam sorooshian

On Jun 23, 2004, at 11:35 AM, AM Brown wrote:

> All that reminds me of my other ah ha moment related to this. We can
> always choose our reaction, we can choose to be happy. Things will
> happen
> not in our control but we can choose to be miserable and feel
> powerless or
> choose to be happy, grateful, empowered. That philosophy has changed
> my
> life.

I want to know how to help a kid know this. Somehow I do know it. And
somehow two of my three kids know it. But my 16 yo seems to not get it
at all - her state of mind is really at the mercy of what other people
do - around her or to her.

She's such a great person - she's so lovely and smart and talented and
funny and passionate and on and on. I think people here who have met
her will agree, she's a very very wonderful kid. But she spends a LOT
of time feeling sorry for herself, bitter at what life has handed her,
jealous of others when things go their way and not hers, thinking
people don't like her and being critical of other people.

She doesn't have friends - doesn't know how to make friends. I want to
say she's serious, she takes things so seriously, but then she also has
an awesome creative sense of humor. She is on the comedy improv team I
coach and she's great at it. But she doesn't have the skill of making
small talk, being friendly, getting to know another person, and slowly
developing an acquaintanceship into a friendship. Nobody ever calls and
invites her over - she has never been invited to a birthday party or an
overnighter or just to go to a movie with other kids. She seems not to
make the little needed gestures that would help move a casual
acquaintance into becoming a friend.

I would not say she's really happy. She has times of BEING really happy
- she does things that seem to make her happy, but socially she's very
unhappy. She wants friends who care about her and understand her and
with whom she can share experiences and interests, but she just doesn't
seem to click with anybody.

Also, she has her heart so set on acting and musical theater. She loves
it. She's deeply passionately interested in it. She's a darn good
dramatic actress, a pretty good comedic actress, has a good voice, but
not an especially unusually good voice, is a so-so dancer. But, she
doesn't have "the look" or "the charisma" for star quality, at least
not right now. She's good enough, she gets ensemble parts, and got into
a summer conservatory that didn't take everybody who auditioned. But
she's not happy with that - won't BE happy unless she gets lead parts.

I just hate to see her happiness depend so much on other people and
things that are so arbitrary.

But, the above aside, I mostly wish I knew how to help her develop
friendships. I do think she'll be way better off in that arena once
she's a bit more grown up - part of her problem is that so many teenage
girls seem kind of ditzy to her, not serious about things like she is.
She is such an "intellectual" - she is extremely well read and loves to
talk about everything from ancient history to word origins to recurring
themes in movies to interesting news from astronomers, and so on. She
sees connections everywhere - talking to her is like talking to Sandra
- one interesting thing leads quickly to another. She's fast thinking
and seems to have access in her brain to far more material at once than
most people - if that makes sense. But she doesn't "get" the just
goof-around joking kind of small talk that kids her age do so much of.
She doesn't get giggling over nothing, making things into inside jokes,
and all that teenage girl kind of stuff. She feels like an outsider,
different, and left out.

-pam

J. Stauffer

<<<< She doesn't get giggling over nothing, making things into inside jokes,
> and all that teenage girl kind of stuff. She feels like an outsider,
> different, and left out.>>>>>

Gosh it is hard to watch our kids be unhappy. I do have to say that what
you described seems like a recurring theme for many people who are
interested in the dramatic arts. And as far as not having "the
look".....even Better Midler got some awesome leading lady parts.

Does she have much access to people of different ages who share her
interests? My 13yo tends to not have friends her age, but is very good
friends with a girl a few years younger and with lots of young adults. Just
a thought.

Julie S.----I just realized that Adriane also has a bit of pessimism to her,
in fact, we used to call her Eyeore.

----- Original Message -----
From: "pam sorooshian" <pamsoroosh@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] choices and freedom


>
> On Jun 23, 2004, at 11:35 AM, AM Brown wrote:
>
> > All that reminds me of my other ah ha moment related to this. We can
> > always choose our reaction, we can choose to be happy. Things will
> > happen
> > not in our control but we can choose to be miserable and feel
> > powerless or
> > choose to be happy, grateful, empowered. That philosophy has changed
> > my
> > life.
>
> I want to know how to help a kid know this. Somehow I do know it. And
> somehow two of my three kids know it. But my 16 yo seems to not get it
> at all - her state of mind is really at the mercy of what other people
> do - around her or to her.
>
> She's such a great person - she's so lovely and smart and talented and
> funny and passionate and on and on. I think people here who have met
> her will agree, she's a very very wonderful kid. But she spends a LOT
> of time feeling sorry for herself, bitter at what life has handed her,
> jealous of others when things go their way and not hers, thinking
> people don't like her and being critical of other people.
>
> She doesn't have friends - doesn't know how to make friends. I want to
> say she's serious, she takes things so seriously, but then she also has
> an awesome creative sense of humor. She is on the comedy improv team I
> coach and she's great at it. But she doesn't have the skill of making
> small talk, being friendly, getting to know another person, and slowly
> developing an acquaintanceship into a friendship. Nobody ever calls and
> invites her over - she has never been invited to a birthday party or an
> overnighter or just to go to a movie with other kids. She seems not to
> make the little needed gestures that would help move a casual
> acquaintance into becoming a friend.
>
> I would not say she's really happy. She has times of BEING really happy
> - she does things that seem to make her happy, but socially she's very
> unhappy. She wants friends who care about her and understand her and
> with whom she can share experiences and interests, but she just doesn't
> seem to click with anybody.
>
> Also, she has her heart so set on acting and musical theater. She loves
> it. She's deeply passionately interested in it. She's a darn good
> dramatic actress, a pretty good comedic actress, has a good voice, but
> not an especially unusually good voice, is a so-so dancer. But, she
> doesn't have "the look" or "the charisma" for star quality, at least
> not right now. She's good enough, she gets ensemble parts, and got into
> a summer conservatory that didn't take everybody who auditioned. But
> she's not happy with that - won't BE happy unless she gets lead parts.
>
> I just hate to see her happiness depend so much on other people and
> things that are so arbitrary.
>
> But, the above aside, I mostly wish I knew how to help her develop
> friendships. I do think she'll be way better off in that arena once
> she's a bit more grown up - part of her problem is that so many teenage
> girls seem kind of ditzy to her, not serious about things like she is.
> She is such an "intellectual" - she is extremely well read and loves to
> talk about everything from ancient history to word origins to recurring
> themes in movies to interesting news from astronomers, and so on. She
> sees connections everywhere - talking to her is like talking to Sandra
> - one interesting thing leads quickly to another. She's fast thinking
> and seems to have access in her brain to far more material at once than
> most people - if that makes sense. But she doesn't "get" the just
> goof-around joking kind of small talk that kids her age do so much of.
> She doesn't get giggling over nothing, making things into inside jokes,
> and all that teenage girl kind of stuff. She feels like an outsider,
> different, and left out.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
>
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>
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