Sharing
Dawn Falbe
When our boys were younger and they didn't want to share with those who
came over for playdates we told them before the date to put away those
toys they didn't want to share and to leave out ones that were ok to
share. This gave them a lot of power and they had fun figuring out what
they wanted to put away and what was ok for others to play with. I left
it up to them, with the caveat that if it were out when others came then
it was fair game for anyone to play with. Every once in a while they
will still do this, if they don't want to share something special (such
as Zak's Exodia pieces of Yu-Gi-Oh, which I don't really want anyone
touching anyway as it costs $160 and I can just see all 5 pieces getting
ripped and his heart being ripped out)....
Namaste
Dawn
came over for playdates we told them before the date to put away those
toys they didn't want to share and to leave out ones that were ok to
share. This gave them a lot of power and they had fun figuring out what
they wanted to put away and what was ok for others to play with. I left
it up to them, with the caveat that if it were out when others came then
it was fair game for anyone to play with. Every once in a while they
will still do this, if they don't want to share something special (such
as Zak's Exodia pieces of Yu-Gi-Oh, which I don't really want anyone
touching anyway as it costs $160 and I can just see all 5 pieces getting
ripped and his heart being ripped out)....
Namaste
Dawn
Jonell Alvi
Hi,
When ds Ben (age 4) has a friend over and is having trouble sharing,
or is fighting with his friend over a toy, I try to help them work it
out. Since the visiting child is the guest, I usually ask Ben if he
can let the guest have 10 minutes to play with the toy (I set a
timer), and when the timer rings it will be his turn. If Ben won't
agree to this, or if there is an all out war going on (in other
words, tears and physical shoving/hitting) then the toy goes into
time-out. I take the toy and put it away where the kids can't see it
and ask the kids to find something new to play. The rule is, if you
can't agree on how to play with the toy together, or to take turns
with it, the toy goes away.
After doing this a few times, I often will just say to Ben "Does the
toy need a time out?" and he is able to calm down and work out a
solution with his friend.
-Jonell
__________________________________
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When ds Ben (age 4) has a friend over and is having trouble sharing,
or is fighting with his friend over a toy, I try to help them work it
out. Since the visiting child is the guest, I usually ask Ben if he
can let the guest have 10 minutes to play with the toy (I set a
timer), and when the timer rings it will be his turn. If Ben won't
agree to this, or if there is an all out war going on (in other
words, tears and physical shoving/hitting) then the toy goes into
time-out. I take the toy and put it away where the kids can't see it
and ask the kids to find something new to play. The rule is, if you
can't agree on how to play with the toy together, or to take turns
with it, the toy goes away.
After doing this a few times, I often will just say to Ben "Does the
toy need a time out?" and he is able to calm down and work out a
solution with his friend.
-Jonell
__________________________________
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Barbara Chase
I don't try to teach sharing. I don't share everything of mine with
everyone, so I don't expect my daughter to do so. But, I am generous and I
live my life with my daughter this way - so she sees what it's like. In
the past we would put the really special things away when others came over,
but sometimes there was something left out and my dd felt very strongly
about not sharing it. When this came up we didn't force her to share it,
instead I would find a solution that would work for everyone and I would
make a mental note not to leave out that particular toy next time.
She's now 5.5 and is generous - so it's not as much of an issue. And we
don't usually need to put special things away anymore because her friends
also have special things they don't want to share, so it's OK not to share
some things -- with all but one friend, who seems bent on only playing with
the one special thing that might be out and visible. I have a feeling that
she is forced to share in her house and isn't allowed to have anything
special. What my daughter and I have come up with for this issue is to
have something special for this friend when she comes over, something that
will be just hers. I hope this will work for her, because she can really
dig in her heals and refuse to compromise or play with anything else but
the special toy. Another thing I have done with arguments over toys that
are out and available to anyone is to be the one who holds the space of
neutrality or calm while everyone finds a workable solution - sort of like
Sandra's farmer in her pocket while making lunch, or having a time-out for
the toy.
ciao
--bc--
everyone, so I don't expect my daughter to do so. But, I am generous and I
live my life with my daughter this way - so she sees what it's like. In
the past we would put the really special things away when others came over,
but sometimes there was something left out and my dd felt very strongly
about not sharing it. When this came up we didn't force her to share it,
instead I would find a solution that would work for everyone and I would
make a mental note not to leave out that particular toy next time.
She's now 5.5 and is generous - so it's not as much of an issue. And we
don't usually need to put special things away anymore because her friends
also have special things they don't want to share, so it's OK not to share
some things -- with all but one friend, who seems bent on only playing with
the one special thing that might be out and visible. I have a feeling that
she is forced to share in her house and isn't allowed to have anything
special. What my daughter and I have come up with for this issue is to
have something special for this friend when she comes over, something that
will be just hers. I hope this will work for her, because she can really
dig in her heals and refuse to compromise or play with anything else but
the special toy. Another thing I have done with arguments over toys that
are out and available to anyone is to be the one who holds the space of
neutrality or calm while everyone finds a workable solution - sort of like
Sandra's farmer in her pocket while making lunch, or having a time-out for
the toy.
ciao
--bc--
kazglc
I have 2 boys age 5 and 2. Our house is overflowing with toys and because the eldest, L, has been around longer a higher proportion of the toys are his - also, due to available space, we have slowed down the toy buying over the last year anyway.
L is sparodic in his claims over 'his' toys - some toys he always objects to A playing with, others he sometimes objects and sometimes doesnt and others he on the whole doesnt mind A playing with them but will occassionally get possesive about them. Also to be honest we have that many toys that half the time i'm not really sure who they were bought for in the first place so its hard to seperate it out.
L wants all his toys to be his and to be able to snatch them out of A's hands if he so wishes, however, he wants all A's toys to be sharing toys. This seems really unfair to me but it often works out the way L wishes because A is not so possessive over his toys. Occassionally A does object to L playing with one of his toys and then world war 3 ensues as i try to get L to give back A his toy in the same way that he expects A to give back his toys when the roles are reversed.
I find this recurring situation extremely stressful and the only thing new i can come up with is to go out and buy A a load of new toys that are JUST for him to play with and not L to kind of re-dress the balance. Although this will cause upset for L that he cant play with new toys of A's.
We already try and keep L's more special toys out of A's way, although he often leaves them out right were A is playing and then goes mad when A picks them up. I dont enforce sharing but try to gently encourage it as best i can - usually with little success!! I'm also very present with them all the time - unless someone is here to play with them other than me, the only things i do other than play with them is get food for us and the basics of personal hygiene!!! So its really not the case that it is little boys left to squabble on their own.
I think the unfairness of the toy thing kinda reflects a wider unfairness i feel between the boys too in that i always feel like we are doing everything to pander to L's wants and wishes and A has to largely just fit in. L has huge jealousy issues with A and says things like 'he's not my brother - he;s a bad baby', he really does not like him. To help with this we do all the usual stuff - one on one time with L, letting him express his negative feelings about A to us, not making him be 'the big boy' etc and by generally doing whatever he wants even though it sometimes feels like A's wants and desires are being trampled on. This happens because i'm so scared of making his feelings toward A worse by insisting on what A wants too often - i do my best to do what they both want but if its completely incompatible L usual gets his way.
Any thoughts appreciated...
Karen
L is sparodic in his claims over 'his' toys - some toys he always objects to A playing with, others he sometimes objects and sometimes doesnt and others he on the whole doesnt mind A playing with them but will occassionally get possesive about them. Also to be honest we have that many toys that half the time i'm not really sure who they were bought for in the first place so its hard to seperate it out.
L wants all his toys to be his and to be able to snatch them out of A's hands if he so wishes, however, he wants all A's toys to be sharing toys. This seems really unfair to me but it often works out the way L wishes because A is not so possessive over his toys. Occassionally A does object to L playing with one of his toys and then world war 3 ensues as i try to get L to give back A his toy in the same way that he expects A to give back his toys when the roles are reversed.
I find this recurring situation extremely stressful and the only thing new i can come up with is to go out and buy A a load of new toys that are JUST for him to play with and not L to kind of re-dress the balance. Although this will cause upset for L that he cant play with new toys of A's.
We already try and keep L's more special toys out of A's way, although he often leaves them out right were A is playing and then goes mad when A picks them up. I dont enforce sharing but try to gently encourage it as best i can - usually with little success!! I'm also very present with them all the time - unless someone is here to play with them other than me, the only things i do other than play with them is get food for us and the basics of personal hygiene!!! So its really not the case that it is little boys left to squabble on their own.
I think the unfairness of the toy thing kinda reflects a wider unfairness i feel between the boys too in that i always feel like we are doing everything to pander to L's wants and wishes and A has to largely just fit in. L has huge jealousy issues with A and says things like 'he's not my brother - he;s a bad baby', he really does not like him. To help with this we do all the usual stuff - one on one time with L, letting him express his negative feelings about A to us, not making him be 'the big boy' etc and by generally doing whatever he wants even though it sometimes feels like A's wants and desires are being trampled on. This happens because i'm so scared of making his feelings toward A worse by insisting on what A wants too often - i do my best to do what they both want but if its completely incompatible L usual gets his way.
Any thoughts appreciated...
Karen
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think the unfairness of the toy thing kinda reflects a wider
unfairness i feel between the boys too in that i always feel like we
are doing everything to pander to L's wants and wishes and A has to
largely just fit in. L has huge jealousy issues with A and says things
like 'he's not my brother - he;s a bad baby', he really does not like
him. -=-
I'm guessing maybe you "prepared" the older one by saying "it will be
great, you'll have a playmate," or "it will be fun to have a brother."
Someday it might be, but those kinds of "preparations" often make
things worse.
Can you wear the younger baby on your back? We had an aluminum-frame
backpack our kids rode in a lot, either on me or my husband.
Can you find playmates and playdates for the older one?
Maybe get some toys that are yours, so you're the one who can take
them and put them away when it looks like they're causing more harm
than help.
"Fair" isn't measurable. If your older child needs more time and more
attention, and the younger one is content just being there during
whatever else happens, then that's what IS, and that's what's fair.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unfairness i feel between the boys too in that i always feel like we
are doing everything to pander to L's wants and wishes and A has to
largely just fit in. L has huge jealousy issues with A and says things
like 'he's not my brother - he;s a bad baby', he really does not like
him. -=-
I'm guessing maybe you "prepared" the older one by saying "it will be
great, you'll have a playmate," or "it will be fun to have a brother."
Someday it might be, but those kinds of "preparations" often make
things worse.
Can you wear the younger baby on your back? We had an aluminum-frame
backpack our kids rode in a lot, either on me or my husband.
Can you find playmates and playdates for the older one?
Maybe get some toys that are yours, so you're the one who can take
them and put them away when it looks like they're causing more harm
than help.
"Fair" isn't measurable. If your older child needs more time and more
attention, and the younger one is content just being there during
whatever else happens, then that's what IS, and that's what's fair.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
"kazglc" <kazzarat@...> wrote:
It might help to see things from the older child's perspective - your 5yo has had his whole world taken over by a toddler. Its easy to be a big brother to a baby, not so easy when the baby starts to run around playing with all the toys. To A, the toys are just there, but to L, they have a history. Beyond that, taking back a toy is something L can control, to some extent. Having a toddler in the house means there are a lot of things he can't control, though - he's having to share space and parents and time, too. That can be pretty stressful.
Can A be distracted at all? Cuddled and taken into another room for a little? Do you ever talk about "taking turns"? A lot of kids do better with the idea of "turns" than with "sharing".
Thinking about "unfairness" and "pandering" isn't good for your relationship with your 5yo. If his needs are bigger and louder than those of the 2yos, then they are - life doesn't give everyone the same personalities and temperaments and needs. It is kind to both your kids to make sure those bigger needs are being met - it helps make for a more peaceful life for the 2yo as much as the older child.
If you're thinking "this is so unfair" every time you're giving the older child attention, you'll end up communicating some of that to him - and that will add fuel to his neediness and jealosy. The more you can give to him wholeheartedly, the better he'll feel about himself and his relationship with you - and ultimately with his brother, too.
---Meredith
>> L wants all his toys to be his and to be able to snatch them out of A's hands if he so wishes, however, he wants all A's toys to be sharing toys. This seems really unfair to me but it often works out the way L wishes because A is not so possessive over his toys.*****************
It might help to see things from the older child's perspective - your 5yo has had his whole world taken over by a toddler. Its easy to be a big brother to a baby, not so easy when the baby starts to run around playing with all the toys. To A, the toys are just there, but to L, they have a history. Beyond that, taking back a toy is something L can control, to some extent. Having a toddler in the house means there are a lot of things he can't control, though - he's having to share space and parents and time, too. That can be pretty stressful.
>Occassionally A does object to L playing with one of his toys and then world war 3 ensues as i try to get L to give back A his toy in the same way that he expects A to give back his toys when the roles are reversed.*****************
Can A be distracted at all? Cuddled and taken into another room for a little? Do you ever talk about "taking turns"? A lot of kids do better with the idea of "turns" than with "sharing".
> I think the unfairness of the toy thing kinda reflects a wider unfairness i feel between the boys too in that i always feel like we are doing everything to pander to L's wants and wishes and A has to largely just fit in.*****************
Thinking about "unfairness" and "pandering" isn't good for your relationship with your 5yo. If his needs are bigger and louder than those of the 2yos, then they are - life doesn't give everyone the same personalities and temperaments and needs. It is kind to both your kids to make sure those bigger needs are being met - it helps make for a more peaceful life for the 2yo as much as the older child.
If you're thinking "this is so unfair" every time you're giving the older child attention, you'll end up communicating some of that to him - and that will add fuel to his neediness and jealosy. The more you can give to him wholeheartedly, the better he'll feel about himself and his relationship with you - and ultimately with his brother, too.
---Meredith
k
>>>"Fair" isn't measurable. If your older child needs more time and moreattention, and the younger one is content just being there during
whatever else happens, then that's what IS, and that's what's fair.<<<
At 5 I got fitted for a hearing aid and suddenly my parents were aware
that I needed more. In reality. Not because I asked or seemed
distressed. My mom described me as a very easy baby and my 8 year
older than me sister loved to take care of me. I got carried around a
lot. But as soon as this situation surfaced, suddenly it wasn't about
being fair (as in attention equally applied to each child.. they had 3
by then and in two years they would have another child). It was about
being suddenly aware of something I didn't know to make them aware of.
This is true of emotional needs too. Situations change, some children
acclimate better than others, and so on.
So. Not only is fair not measurable. It isn't something to be equally
dealt out to each child. Some children have greater need for some
things than others. One day your youngest will very likely have a need
in another area that would never be a concern for your first child.
Being fair isn't possible especially if it's being looked at as "fair
means equal."
~Katherine
Karen Norman
Thank you for the replies I still have some queries so here goes
<³I'm guessing maybe you "prepared" the older one by saying "it will be
great, you'll have a playmate," or "it will be fun to have a brother."²>
I never said this it always struck me as a silly thing to say so if anyone
else said it I usually clarified it for L by saying babies can be quite
boring at first he would get more fun as he got older we used to have
discussions about his cousin who is a year younger than him and who he used
to dislike a lot as a baby but who got more interesting as he got older and
now loves playing with him. We still have these kinda discussions now so he
knows I understand how irritating he finds A.
<³Can you wear the younger baby on your back? We had an aluminum-frame
backpack our kids rode in a lot, either on me or my husband.
Can you find playmates and playdates for the older one?² >
A isn¹t into being carried about anymore he¹s really active. Playdates etc
are thin on the ground around here In the part of England in which I live,
the home ed community is very small, theres not much going on and I don¹t
have a whole bunch of friends with kids the ones I do have all have much
younger girls which is no fun for L he likes playing with boys mainly who
are older than him. We do our best but I wish there was more social
opportunites for us though to be honest if you ask L what he wants to do on
any given day he will say stay home and play with me or go to his nanas
he¹s still not overly into mixing with other kids yet. I have to persuade
him to go on social stuff which I do because I know when he gets there that
he usually enjoys it and if not we come home early.
<³"Fair" isn't measurable. If your older child needs more time and more
attention, and the younger one is content just being there during
whatever else happens, then that's what IS, and that's what's fair
Can A be distracted at all? Cuddled and taken into another room for a
little?
Thinking about "unfairness" and "pandering" isn't good for your relationship
with your 5yo. If his needs are bigger and louder than those of the 2yos,
then they are - life doesn't give everyone the same personalities and
temperaments and needs. It is kind to both your kids to make sure those
bigger needs are being met - it helps make for a more peaceful life for the
2yo as much as the older child.²>
These are the kind of thoughts I have applied to the situation so far, but
whereas the writers here have said them with confidence and assurance I
lack that absolute assurance that I am handling it in the right way and on a
gut level it often just feels wrong, and I often look at A and just feel
guilty that he is so frequently having to compromise his own wants for that
of L. Other relatives, most notably my mum, always comment on how they feel
sorry for A due to the way L dominates and controls¹ (her words not mine)
us all.
Yes, A can be pacified and distracted from his wants and yes L screams
louder and is more determined to get his own way, but does this make it
right for A to constantly have his needs/wants compromised based on what L
wants? I can imagine really wanting something but being made to compromise
and being pacified with something else because a more powerful individual
wanted a different outcome, but my real need/ want would still be there and
if this were to happen day after day I cant help but think this would having
damaging consequences psychologically and emotionally.
I can see how having a very demanding dominant older brother would make a
person more socially popular because that person would be so used to
compromising themselves to accomadate another person, but surely that would
come at the price of a lack of confidence and self esteem? If ones needs
regularly take second place to a sibling, not for any physical reason but
because they are more dominate, surely that is not healthy for the less
dominant sibling? What if A¹s needs are just as big as L¹s but that he¹s so
used to taking second place to L that he just accepts he cant have what he
wants more easily and is in a sense just giving up?
So what I¹m saying is that I can see the sense in the advice I¹ve been given
here but I cant impliment it with a great amount of assurance or confidence.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<³I'm guessing maybe you "prepared" the older one by saying "it will be
great, you'll have a playmate," or "it will be fun to have a brother."²>
I never said this it always struck me as a silly thing to say so if anyone
else said it I usually clarified it for L by saying babies can be quite
boring at first he would get more fun as he got older we used to have
discussions about his cousin who is a year younger than him and who he used
to dislike a lot as a baby but who got more interesting as he got older and
now loves playing with him. We still have these kinda discussions now so he
knows I understand how irritating he finds A.
<³Can you wear the younger baby on your back? We had an aluminum-frame
backpack our kids rode in a lot, either on me or my husband.
Can you find playmates and playdates for the older one?² >
A isn¹t into being carried about anymore he¹s really active. Playdates etc
are thin on the ground around here In the part of England in which I live,
the home ed community is very small, theres not much going on and I don¹t
have a whole bunch of friends with kids the ones I do have all have much
younger girls which is no fun for L he likes playing with boys mainly who
are older than him. We do our best but I wish there was more social
opportunites for us though to be honest if you ask L what he wants to do on
any given day he will say stay home and play with me or go to his nanas
he¹s still not overly into mixing with other kids yet. I have to persuade
him to go on social stuff which I do because I know when he gets there that
he usually enjoys it and if not we come home early.
<³"Fair" isn't measurable. If your older child needs more time and more
attention, and the younger one is content just being there during
whatever else happens, then that's what IS, and that's what's fair
Can A be distracted at all? Cuddled and taken into another room for a
little?
Thinking about "unfairness" and "pandering" isn't good for your relationship
with your 5yo. If his needs are bigger and louder than those of the 2yos,
then they are - life doesn't give everyone the same personalities and
temperaments and needs. It is kind to both your kids to make sure those
bigger needs are being met - it helps make for a more peaceful life for the
2yo as much as the older child.²>
These are the kind of thoughts I have applied to the situation so far, but
whereas the writers here have said them with confidence and assurance I
lack that absolute assurance that I am handling it in the right way and on a
gut level it often just feels wrong, and I often look at A and just feel
guilty that he is so frequently having to compromise his own wants for that
of L. Other relatives, most notably my mum, always comment on how they feel
sorry for A due to the way L dominates and controls¹ (her words not mine)
us all.
Yes, A can be pacified and distracted from his wants and yes L screams
louder and is more determined to get his own way, but does this make it
right for A to constantly have his needs/wants compromised based on what L
wants? I can imagine really wanting something but being made to compromise
and being pacified with something else because a more powerful individual
wanted a different outcome, but my real need/ want would still be there and
if this were to happen day after day I cant help but think this would having
damaging consequences psychologically and emotionally.
I can see how having a very demanding dominant older brother would make a
person more socially popular because that person would be so used to
compromising themselves to accomadate another person, but surely that would
come at the price of a lack of confidence and self esteem? If ones needs
regularly take second place to a sibling, not for any physical reason but
because they are more dominate, surely that is not healthy for the less
dominant sibling? What if A¹s needs are just as big as L¹s but that he¹s so
used to taking second place to L that he just accepts he cant have what he
wants more easily and is in a sense just giving up?
So what I¹m saying is that I can see the sense in the advice I¹ve been given
here but I cant impliment it with a great amount of assurance or confidence.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes, A can be pacified and distracted from his wants and yes L
screams
louder and is more determined to get his own way, but does this make it
right for A to constantly have his needs/wants compromised based on
what L
wants? I can imagine really wanting something but being made to
compromise
and being pacified with something else because a more powerful
individual
wanted a different outcome, but my real need/ want would still be
there and
if this were to happen day after day I cant help but think this would
having
damaging consequences psychologically and emotionally.-=-
If they were going to stay the ages they are for 18 years, it would be
a serious concern, but every day, every moment, they're older and
different.
-=I can see how having a very demanding dominant older brother would
make a
person more socially popular because that person would be so used to
compromising themselves to accomadate another person, but surely that
would
come at the price of a lack of confidence and self esteem-=-
Not in my experience. My oldest, Kirby, makes friends easily and is a
"life of the party" kind of guy. Marty, 2.5 years younger, is quieter
and more awkward in social situation. There are areas in which Marty
is much better than Kirby is, so here's another "advertisement" for
Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
When Kirby grew up and moved away and Marty inherited all those gaming
friends and social situations, Marty did very well. I could tell lots
of stories (and I do, as they happen), but having a more confident
older brother didn't hurt Marty's self-esteem at all. It might be
that the thought of eventual lack of confidence and self esteem is
coming from a having-been-bullied model school-style, of 12 or 13
years of being an average or sub-par student surrounded by meaner,
quicker other boys. (Maybe not, but that image came to mind.)
It's not the same within a family, especially if the mom reasons
through the situation with each child in as neutral a way as possible.
I have sat with each of my children at various times and stages over
the years while he or she said "I HATE [Kirby or Marty or Holly]" or
"MOM, he's really bugging me," or "MOM, you need to talk to Holly;
she's going crazy," or "Mom, shouldn't Kirby be moving out? I want
his bathroom." And rather than say "You shouldn't feel that way about
a sibling," I let them spill as much as they want. It's cathartic to
them, it's informative for me (I learn more about both kids through
those conversations), and then I'm able to agree with some parts and
than them for letting me know, and I'm able to remind them of factors
and considerations they aren't seeing as clearly as I am, and to
remind them that I really love that kid they're so pissed off at, but
that they don't have to, and that's fine.
It still happens sometimes. Holly was in Canada for several months
and Marty was the only one here, and when Holly came back they didn't
connect well at first, and both were complaining to me about it. I
made suggestions for ways they could get along or avoid each other, or
let it settle out and not worry about it too much. And it did settle
out and they're fine again.
At 18, 21 and 24 their relationships with each other are good. If
they weren't good, that would be fine with me, but they are and that's
a nice things to see.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
screams
louder and is more determined to get his own way, but does this make it
right for A to constantly have his needs/wants compromised based on
what L
wants? I can imagine really wanting something but being made to
compromise
and being pacified with something else because a more powerful
individual
wanted a different outcome, but my real need/ want would still be
there and
if this were to happen day after day I cant help but think this would
having
damaging consequences psychologically and emotionally.-=-
If they were going to stay the ages they are for 18 years, it would be
a serious concern, but every day, every moment, they're older and
different.
-=I can see how having a very demanding dominant older brother would
make a
person more socially popular because that person would be so used to
compromising themselves to accomadate another person, but surely that
would
come at the price of a lack of confidence and self esteem-=-
Not in my experience. My oldest, Kirby, makes friends easily and is a
"life of the party" kind of guy. Marty, 2.5 years younger, is quieter
and more awkward in social situation. There are areas in which Marty
is much better than Kirby is, so here's another "advertisement" for
Gardner's theory of multiple intelligences
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
When Kirby grew up and moved away and Marty inherited all those gaming
friends and social situations, Marty did very well. I could tell lots
of stories (and I do, as they happen), but having a more confident
older brother didn't hurt Marty's self-esteem at all. It might be
that the thought of eventual lack of confidence and self esteem is
coming from a having-been-bullied model school-style, of 12 or 13
years of being an average or sub-par student surrounded by meaner,
quicker other boys. (Maybe not, but that image came to mind.)
It's not the same within a family, especially if the mom reasons
through the situation with each child in as neutral a way as possible.
I have sat with each of my children at various times and stages over
the years while he or she said "I HATE [Kirby or Marty or Holly]" or
"MOM, he's really bugging me," or "MOM, you need to talk to Holly;
she's going crazy," or "Mom, shouldn't Kirby be moving out? I want
his bathroom." And rather than say "You shouldn't feel that way about
a sibling," I let them spill as much as they want. It's cathartic to
them, it's informative for me (I learn more about both kids through
those conversations), and then I'm able to agree with some parts and
than them for letting me know, and I'm able to remind them of factors
and considerations they aren't seeing as clearly as I am, and to
remind them that I really love that kid they're so pissed off at, but
that they don't have to, and that's fine.
It still happens sometimes. Holly was in Canada for several months
and Marty was the only one here, and when Holly came back they didn't
connect well at first, and both were complaining to me about it. I
made suggestions for ways they could get along or avoid each other, or
let it settle out and not worry about it too much. And it did settle
out and they're fine again.
At 18, 21 and 24 their relationships with each other are good. If
they weren't good, that would be fine with me, but they are and that's
a nice things to see.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I can see the sense in the advice I�ve been given
here but I cant impliment it with a great amount of assurance or
confidence. -=-
I'm going to start a new topic with this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
here but I cant impliment it with a great amount of assurance or
confidence. -=-
I'm going to start a new topic with this.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
Karen Norman <kazzarat@...> wrote:
I've sooooo been there, with the kid who gets "it all" - the lion's share of the attention, the food, the conversation. Its not better to put his needs on the back burner, it only makes them bigger, setting him up to clamor more and lash out more. That isn't better for Anyone. Its hard to make the mental shift to "more for this child is more fair". At first I needed to see it as a weighing of lesser evils - hard on one or hard on everyone? But over time that shifted to something much more positive... and hard to express. If you start out from "life isn't fair" that sounds hard-but-true. But there's a positive side to "life isn't fair" and its that there is abundance in the world. One of you kids has an abundance of feeling and expression and needs a lot of help dealing with that right now. You could squash him down, make him "fair" by telling him his feelings are unimportant and his expression is unwelcome, or you can change the way you see Him - to see his emotionality and expressiveness as part of what makes him wonderful and whole and himself. Do you really want to take those things away from him?
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 16 for another couple weeks)
>on aTaking away from L won't make the situation more "fair" though - you'll just have one child melting down, which isn't going to leave your or A feeling warm and comfortable. At best, you'll feel self righteous. That's not better or kinder, its a setup for a lot of garbage and unhappiness.
> gut level it often just feels wrong, and I often look at A and just feel
> guilty that he is so frequently having to compromise his own wants for that
> of L.
I've sooooo been there, with the kid who gets "it all" - the lion's share of the attention, the food, the conversation. Its not better to put his needs on the back burner, it only makes them bigger, setting him up to clamor more and lash out more. That isn't better for Anyone. Its hard to make the mental shift to "more for this child is more fair". At first I needed to see it as a weighing of lesser evils - hard on one or hard on everyone? But over time that shifted to something much more positive... and hard to express. If you start out from "life isn't fair" that sounds hard-but-true. But there's a positive side to "life isn't fair" and its that there is abundance in the world. One of you kids has an abundance of feeling and expression and needs a lot of help dealing with that right now. You could squash him down, make him "fair" by telling him his feelings are unimportant and his expression is unwelcome, or you can change the way you see Him - to see his emotionality and expressiveness as part of what makes him wonderful and whole and himself. Do you really want to take those things away from him?
> Yes, A can be pacified and distracted from his wants and yes L screamsPart of the problem is you are overlaying adult expectations onto children. At 2 years old, A isn't calming down because he's spent decades learning to squash and ignore his emotions, which is why an adult would react the way he is - he's calming or being distracted because his feelings and reactions aren't as big as his brother's. If he can be distracted, then whatever it was didn't matter very much. If he can be pacified, then his feelings weren't so vast. Its not fair to him to hold him up to the standard of his brother - he Doesn't feel things that strongly, and that's okay, too.
> louder and is more determined to get his own way, but does this make it
> right for A to constantly have his needs/wants compromised based on what L
> wants?
>>does this make itIts so easy to get stuck on that question! What's kinder in the moment? For one child to be melting down, upsetting you and anyone else in the house, or the other child to be distracted into feeling okay? Its Okay to go for that kinder solution. It won't make the older child a bully and the younger a victim, it will allow them both the chance to learn about empathy and kindness - yes, even L. He can't learn about those things when he's melting down, its not possible. He can only learn them when he's been shown so much empathy and kindness that he has enough to offer to others. My giant-needs stepson is almost 17. Not only is he not a bully, he's very kind and thoughtful. He's human, not a paragon, when he's spent a big chunk of time around folks who talk down to teenagers, he tends to be louder and more domineering, but only verbally - as in he talks over the tops of other people and expresses himself in strong, loaded language. Most of the time, though, he's a warm, giving person, someone who likes to help others.
> right...?
---Meredith (Mo 9, Ray 16 for another couple weeks)
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/11/2010 11:36 AM, plaidpanties666 wrote:
through each member's needs being met.
This conversation has been bothering me because the assumption
underlying it seems to be that one child's gain is the other's loss.
Try to think beyond winner and loser and look for win-win solutions.
Don't make it always be about one kid "giving up" what they want for the
other one to get their way. I know this can sound unrealistic - but
pull back and take a wider and longer view.
Give us very specific situations and we can brainstorm alternative ways
to approach them. Not all ideas will work for any particular family, but
they can get the creative juices flowing and help someone get out of a
rut in their thinking/approach.
-pam
> Its hard to make the mental shift to "more for this child is more fair".Think of nurturing the family. Think that the whole family is nurtured
through each member's needs being met.
This conversation has been bothering me because the assumption
underlying it seems to be that one child's gain is the other's loss.
Try to think beyond winner and loser and look for win-win solutions.
Don't make it always be about one kid "giving up" what they want for the
other one to get their way. I know this can sound unrealistic - but
pull back and take a wider and longer view.
Give us very specific situations and we can brainstorm alternative ways
to approach them. Not all ideas will work for any particular family, but
they can get the creative juices flowing and help someone get out of a
rut in their thinking/approach.
-pam
kazglc
You asked for some concrete examples so here they are!!
1. We have a kids shed/den in the garden it was bought for both boys as a sharing toy. L (5) however, will not let A (2) into the den. I try and say it's a sharing toy and that A must be allowed in too but L insists he is not allowed in and screams and screams and barricades the door with all his might In the meantime A gets really upset and starts crying and screaming and bashing the den with toy guns and swords and has broken all 3 windows on it like this. Its come to the point were I dread going in the garden and I usually sit in front of the shed door so no-one can get in L is quite happy with this because it means A isn't in there but it still causes trouble cos A still wants to go in but is easier to handle if L isn't going in there either. I wonder whether to just board it up for now till they get to a point were they can share it it gets so stressful!!
2. A has a car, one that the kid can sit in and move with his feet. It is his toy. L likes playing in it too and sometimes A objects to L playing with it especially if he wants to play in it himself. Now, when A has a toy of L's and L wants it back then we get A to give it back to L, even if A is upset about it cos if we don't L will start screaming and hurting A.
However, when the shoe is on the other foot and A wants his car back it feels like this same logic should apply it's A's toy and he wants it back. We say the same thing to L about it being A's toy and him wanting it back (like we do when it's the other way round) and you can see the confusion and upset on A's face when L doesn't give his toy back and a battle ensues to get A his toy back.
I could wrestle A off to another room kicking and screaming and attacking me and calm him down eventually with some other distraction but I wouldn't be doing this because A's need was less or because he was neccessarily more pacifiable, but, because he is younger he can, at present, `be' wrestled away and because his screams and physical attacks are less painful than that of L's and easier for me to deal with because he is physically smaller and weaker than L.
3. This is a typical type of situation that happens a lot and it happened this morning. L wants me to cuddle up and watch a film with him which I do while A is playing about with stuff i got out for him. Then after a while A gets bored with having no attention and comes and takes my hand and tries to drag me up of the chair to come watch him play drums in the kitchen (which are in there so the noise doesn't disturb L tv watching). L then clings onto me and wont let me leave. A is getting distressed and I feel really stuck L wont let me get up at all even to find some new toys for A to play with. In the end I tell A no i am watching tv with lewis and he is still upset but sits on my knee and watches the film with us for a bit. I feel really guilty and crap.
1. We have a kids shed/den in the garden it was bought for both boys as a sharing toy. L (5) however, will not let A (2) into the den. I try and say it's a sharing toy and that A must be allowed in too but L insists he is not allowed in and screams and screams and barricades the door with all his might In the meantime A gets really upset and starts crying and screaming and bashing the den with toy guns and swords and has broken all 3 windows on it like this. Its come to the point were I dread going in the garden and I usually sit in front of the shed door so no-one can get in L is quite happy with this because it means A isn't in there but it still causes trouble cos A still wants to go in but is easier to handle if L isn't going in there either. I wonder whether to just board it up for now till they get to a point were they can share it it gets so stressful!!
2. A has a car, one that the kid can sit in and move with his feet. It is his toy. L likes playing in it too and sometimes A objects to L playing with it especially if he wants to play in it himself. Now, when A has a toy of L's and L wants it back then we get A to give it back to L, even if A is upset about it cos if we don't L will start screaming and hurting A.
However, when the shoe is on the other foot and A wants his car back it feels like this same logic should apply it's A's toy and he wants it back. We say the same thing to L about it being A's toy and him wanting it back (like we do when it's the other way round) and you can see the confusion and upset on A's face when L doesn't give his toy back and a battle ensues to get A his toy back.
I could wrestle A off to another room kicking and screaming and attacking me and calm him down eventually with some other distraction but I wouldn't be doing this because A's need was less or because he was neccessarily more pacifiable, but, because he is younger he can, at present, `be' wrestled away and because his screams and physical attacks are less painful than that of L's and easier for me to deal with because he is physically smaller and weaker than L.
3. This is a typical type of situation that happens a lot and it happened this morning. L wants me to cuddle up and watch a film with him which I do while A is playing about with stuff i got out for him. Then after a while A gets bored with having no attention and comes and takes my hand and tries to drag me up of the chair to come watch him play drums in the kitchen (which are in there so the noise doesn't disturb L tv watching). L then clings onto me and wont let me leave. A is getting distressed and I feel really stuck L wont let me get up at all even to find some new toys for A to play with. In the end I tell A no i am watching tv with lewis and he is still upset but sits on my knee and watches the film with us for a bit. I feel really guilty and crap.