about sexual abuse
[email protected]
-=-Sandra, a person does not change their unconscience
tendency to violate boundaries, and be sexually
innappropriate/abusive unless they have done the
personal examination/healing work to explore what lead
to that behaviour to begin with. This is something
that time does not heal. -=-
True except the time that makes them too old and feeble to function or care.
-=- A child molester is a
dangerous person for any age child. Giving them
unsupervised access to any child is a dangerous thing,
period. No matter what we tell our child about saying
'no' etc... no force field in a child is a match for
adult energy. -=-
Depends on the adult and the child.
Three is too young, and I was wrong in my original advice because of details, but I think too many people behave as though totally avoiding a known molester makes them magically safe from unidentified molesters. And if someone did something thirty years ago, maybe it's old and gone. Do people never get other chances?
-=-That is simply naive thinking, and
unsafe for the child. Also a violation is a
violation, no matter what happened, comparing one
violation to another and saying one is less of a
threat minimizes the suffering of person "just
touched" versus "raped". This is an uneducated belief
about abuse victims.-=-
I don't think I"m as naive or uneducated as you think, but maybe I am.
By "Depends on the adult and the child" I mean a child who has been told always to do what adults tell him and who doesn't even have vocabulary to discuss his own sexuality or body parts is at a HUGE disadvantage compared to a child who is naturally brave, has good interpersonal skills/intelligence/awareness, who isn't afraid of saying "What are you doing!?" or "STOP IT" to an adult instead of letting things proceed.
Please don't quote whole digests, and please change the subject line to match the post to which you're responding.
Thanks,
Sandra
tendency to violate boundaries, and be sexually
innappropriate/abusive unless they have done the
personal examination/healing work to explore what lead
to that behaviour to begin with. This is something
that time does not heal. -=-
True except the time that makes them too old and feeble to function or care.
-=- A child molester is a
dangerous person for any age child. Giving them
unsupervised access to any child is a dangerous thing,
period. No matter what we tell our child about saying
'no' etc... no force field in a child is a match for
adult energy. -=-
Depends on the adult and the child.
Three is too young, and I was wrong in my original advice because of details, but I think too many people behave as though totally avoiding a known molester makes them magically safe from unidentified molesters. And if someone did something thirty years ago, maybe it's old and gone. Do people never get other chances?
-=-That is simply naive thinking, and
unsafe for the child. Also a violation is a
violation, no matter what happened, comparing one
violation to another and saying one is less of a
threat minimizes the suffering of person "just
touched" versus "raped". This is an uneducated belief
about abuse victims.-=-
I don't think I"m as naive or uneducated as you think, but maybe I am.
By "Depends on the adult and the child" I mean a child who has been told always to do what adults tell him and who doesn't even have vocabulary to discuss his own sexuality or body parts is at a HUGE disadvantage compared to a child who is naturally brave, has good interpersonal skills/intelligence/awareness, who isn't afraid of saying "What are you doing!?" or "STOP IT" to an adult instead of letting things proceed.
Please don't quote whole digests, and please change the subject line to match the post to which you're responding.
Thanks,
Sandra
Mary Mapel
Sandra, sorry to have to respond again, however, you are
obviously not aware that sexual abuse is not about sex, it is a
power issue and one of lack of boundaries. Ninety year olds
have still been know to abuse children. It has nothing to do with
sexual desire, it has to do with a power over someone else, and
a lack of being able to distinguish the other person as seperate
from themselves on an emotional level.
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a...
responds to my writing:
Sandra also writes the following to which I respond below:
even have vocabulary to discuss his own sexuality or body parts
is at a HUGE disadvantage compared to a child who is naturally
brave, has good interpersonal skills/intelligence/awareness,
who isn't afraid of saying "What are you doing!?" or "STOP IT" to
an adult instead of letting things proceed.
Putting a child with a known sex offender is dangerous period.
Teaching a child empowerment is of course a very necessary
thing, however, this is no guarantee against abuse. An adult can
quickly slip a finger into the wrong place while he/she is cuddling
with a child, there is no asking first, it is over and done, and the
child is left too shocked or confused to know how to respond.
Even if a child is able to say "no" it has still happened. Do you
really want parents to take this chance with people who are
known to violate children in this way? Of course protecting kids
from known sex offenders is not a guarantee that they won't be
abused by others. But I disagree that it provides a false sense of
security. As a parent I trust my radar. I have a basic trust in
people, however I do look for clues as to whether someone has
good boudaries in general. Do they respect my limits around
other matters? Are they able to acknowledge my feelings and
needs as seperate from their own? Have they been abused in
the past, and if so have they done their own recovery work? If any
of these or other indicators are questionable then i will certainly
not leave my child alone with them. I don't care if i am right or
wrong, I want the best care for my child, and i will not take
unnecessary chances when it comes to their care.
And no, someone does not get a second chance unless they
have demonstrated a high level of personal growth, healing and
ability to freely take responsibility for their past transgressions.
THis is far too important an issue to do the "nice" thing, to put the
perpertrators needs before the child's needs of safety. To do so
would be repeating the abusive relationship, denying that the
child's needs in this situation need to take priority over an adult.
Sandra I really suggest that you read some material on this, as
owner of this group, and as an educator of parents about
children this is one topic that deserves to be fully understood
and not diminished in importance by wishful thinking.
obviously not aware that sexual abuse is not about sex, it is a
power issue and one of lack of boundaries. Ninety year olds
have still been know to abuse children. It has nothing to do with
sexual desire, it has to do with a power over someone else, and
a lack of being able to distinguish the other person as seperate
from themselves on an emotional level.
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a...
responds to my writing:
> -=-Sandra, a person does not change their unconsciencefunction or care.
> tendency to violate boundaries, and be sexually
> innappropriate/abusive unless they have done the
> personal examination/healing work to explore what lead
> to that behaviour to begin with. This is something
> that time does not heal. -=-
>
> True except the time that makes them too old and feeble to
Sandra also writes the following to which I respond below:
> By "Depends on the adult and the child" I mean a child whohas been told always to do what adults tell him and who doesn't
even have vocabulary to discuss his own sexuality or body parts
is at a HUGE disadvantage compared to a child who is naturally
brave, has good interpersonal skills/intelligence/awareness,
who isn't afraid of saying "What are you doing!?" or "STOP IT" to
an adult instead of letting things proceed.
Putting a child with a known sex offender is dangerous period.
Teaching a child empowerment is of course a very necessary
thing, however, this is no guarantee against abuse. An adult can
quickly slip a finger into the wrong place while he/she is cuddling
with a child, there is no asking first, it is over and done, and the
child is left too shocked or confused to know how to respond.
Even if a child is able to say "no" it has still happened. Do you
really want parents to take this chance with people who are
known to violate children in this way? Of course protecting kids
from known sex offenders is not a guarantee that they won't be
abused by others. But I disagree that it provides a false sense of
security. As a parent I trust my radar. I have a basic trust in
people, however I do look for clues as to whether someone has
good boudaries in general. Do they respect my limits around
other matters? Are they able to acknowledge my feelings and
needs as seperate from their own? Have they been abused in
the past, and if so have they done their own recovery work? If any
of these or other indicators are questionable then i will certainly
not leave my child alone with them. I don't care if i am right or
wrong, I want the best care for my child, and i will not take
unnecessary chances when it comes to their care.
And no, someone does not get a second chance unless they
have demonstrated a high level of personal growth, healing and
ability to freely take responsibility for their past transgressions.
THis is far too important an issue to do the "nice" thing, to put the
perpertrators needs before the child's needs of safety. To do so
would be repeating the abusive relationship, denying that the
child's needs in this situation need to take priority over an adult.
Sandra I really suggest that you read some material on this, as
owner of this group, and as an educator of parents about
children this is one topic that deserves to be fully understood
and not diminished in importance by wishful thinking.
Mary Mapel
One more thought about sexual abuse. Sandra when you
suggest that empowering the child to say no is adequate
protection, what happens when that isn't enough? Does that
mean that it is the child's fault that they weren't strong enough? It
is not such a big leap to conclude this if you truly believe that all a
child needs is education and a "force field" in order to be
protected. Surey our children can not be held accountable for an
adults transgressions.
suggest that empowering the child to say no is adequate
protection, what happens when that isn't enough? Does that
mean that it is the child's fault that they weren't strong enough? It
is not such a big leap to conclude this if you truly believe that all a
child needs is education and a "force field" in order to be
protected. Surey our children can not be held accountable for an
adults transgressions.
J. Stauffer
<<<< True except the time that makes them too old and feeble to function or
care. >>>>
Yes, but since pedophiles often do not utilize an erection this can be very,
very old.
<< Do people never get other chances?>>
In my book, pedophiles do not. The recidivism rate is way, way too high and
this is just on people who got caught a second time. Even people who are
chemically castrated still have difficulty with fantasy about children.
If pedophilia were just about sexuality, I might hold more hope. But it has
to do with emotional age, not feeling capable in adult relationships, etc..
It is an extremely complicated thing. I have known pedophiles through
various avenues that I have genuinely liked.....I don't let them near my
kids.
Julie S.
care. >>>>
Yes, but since pedophiles often do not utilize an erection this can be very,
very old.
<< Do people never get other chances?>>
In my book, pedophiles do not. The recidivism rate is way, way too high and
this is just on people who got caught a second time. Even people who are
chemically castrated still have difficulty with fantasy about children.
If pedophilia were just about sexuality, I might hold more hope. But it has
to do with emotional age, not feeling capable in adult relationships, etc..
It is an extremely complicated thing. I have known pedophiles through
various avenues that I have genuinely liked.....I don't let them near my
kids.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 1:01 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] about sexual abuse
> -=-Sandra, a person does not change their unconscience
> tendency to violate boundaries, and be sexually
> innappropriate/abusive unless they have done the
> personal examination/healing work to explore what lead
> to that behaviour to begin with. This is something
> that time does not heal. -=-
>
> True except the time that makes them too old and feeble to function or
care.
>
> -=- A child molester is a
> dangerous person for any age child. Giving them
> unsupervised access to any child is a dangerous thing,
> period. No matter what we tell our child about saying
> 'no' etc... no force field in a child is a match for
> adult energy. -=-
>
> Depends on the adult and the child.
> Three is too young, and I was wrong in my original advice because of
details, but I think too many people behave as though totally avoiding a
known molester makes them magically safe from unidentified molesters. And
if someone did something thirty years ago, maybe it's old and gone. Do
people never get other chances?
>
> -=-That is simply naive thinking, and
> unsafe for the child. Also a violation is a
> violation, no matter what happened, comparing one
> violation to another and saying one is less of a
> threat minimizes the suffering of person "just
> touched" versus "raped". This is an uneducated belief
> about abuse victims.-=-
>
> I don't think I"m as naive or uneducated as you think, but maybe I am.
>
> By "Depends on the adult and the child" I mean a child who has been told
always to do what adults tell him and who doesn't even have vocabulary to
discuss his own sexuality or body parts is at a HUGE disadvantage compared
to a child who is naturally brave, has good interpersonal
skills/intelligence/awareness, who isn't afraid of saying "What are you
doing!?" or "STOP IT" to an adult instead of letting things proceed.
>
> Please don't quote whole digests, and please change the subject line to
match the post to which you're responding.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/26/04 5:39:43 AM, marymapel@... writes:
<< Sandra, sorry to have to respond again, however, you are
obviously not aware that sexual abuse is not about sex, it is a
power issue and one of lack of boundaries. >>
OBVIOUSLY?
Prepare children to stand up to power issues and to have boundaries.
Unless you want to say some people are natural victims, let us assume that
every child can be helped to know what his rights are and to defend them in
everyday circumstances.
-=-Teaching a child empowerment is of course a very necessary
thing, however, this is no guarantee against abuse. An adult can
quickly slip a finger into the wrong place while he/she is cuddling
with a child, there is no asking first, it is over and done, and the
child is left too shocked or confused to know how to respond.
Even if a child is able to say "no" it has still happened. -=-
Well...
We can all live in constant fear and hiding.
We could all drink poison kool-aid and not worry about it anymore.
We could realize things can happen and still live our lives.
-=- As a parent I trust my radar. -=-
Fine. Some people's radar is set to go off if anyone looks at them. Some
have no radar at all. I would hope that discussions like this have to do with
rational and logical ways to consider what to do when radar isn't enough, or
when the parents aren't there.
-=-And no, someone does not get a second chance unless they
have demonstrated a high level of personal growth, healing and
ability to freely take responsibility for their past transgressions. -=-
I have no objection to that if it's clearly that. I have an objection to
people judging others forever and irrevocably, and it doesn't seem you're doing
that.
-=-THis is far too important an issue to do the "nice" thing, to put the
perpertrators needs before the child's needs of safety.-=-
My original recommendation was wrong. I took it back. This is the third
time I've said so.
I wasn't worried about "the perpetrator's needs." I was thinking of a child
who wanted to be there and who MIGHT could be prepared to be there safely.
I was thinking of the child.
-=-Sandra I really suggest that you read some material on this, as
owner of this group, and as an educator of parents about
children this is one topic that deserves to be fully understood
and not diminished in importance by wishful thinking.-=-
And I think you should back down a little because you're really pissing me
off with the stridency of your accusations that I basically don't know diddly
shit.
My mother was raped by her brother. He died within a year or two after, and
she never told her parents about the rape because he was missed and glorified
as the best of their children.
My sister was raped at knifepoint in an arroyo by two men who had raped
others, in front of a younger male friend (not boyfriend) when she was 14.
My sister in law was frightened (verbally not full touch) when she was
staying with an uncle in Hawaii and couldn't get away. She was 12. (She stood up f
or herself and avoided being alone with him thereafter, and warned others.)
My sister was insulted/propositioned by an uncle when she was 15 and in
Alaska and couldn't get away. (She stood up for herself and avoided being alone
with him thereafter, and warned others.)
I have other stories not so close, and most of the women I know were molested
one way or another, several by their own fathers. I have some male friends
who have admitted molestation to me, two by teenaged female babysitters.
Are there other lists which would be better for this discussion? Because
other than helping children know that they don't have to be where they don't want
to be, it's not an unschooling issue.
If a parent doesn't want to confront a parent who acted inappropriately in
ANY way, maybe that parent is right in just keeping the kids in arm's length,
but that is about the parent more than about the child. There are children of
retiring, quiet mothers who are not themselves as retiring and quiet and
fearful.
Holly was molested as a baby, by a five year old boy. Should I have
forbidden my children to play with other children? Should I have avoided La Leche
League because that's where I met the family? It seems his neighbor and perhaps
his mother was molesting him. His mother had been molested by her own father.
I was sad to cut off from that family, but I did. He had been Kirby's best
friend for a couple of years, and it was sad because the boy wasn't evil spawn
of Satan. He was himself an abused boy.
If we're not going to do some mass executions or suicides, we need to live in
the world as it is, and we do NOT always know who "the bad guys" are.
Sandra
Sandra
<< Sandra, sorry to have to respond again, however, you are
obviously not aware that sexual abuse is not about sex, it is a
power issue and one of lack of boundaries. >>
OBVIOUSLY?
Prepare children to stand up to power issues and to have boundaries.
Unless you want to say some people are natural victims, let us assume that
every child can be helped to know what his rights are and to defend them in
everyday circumstances.
-=-Teaching a child empowerment is of course a very necessary
thing, however, this is no guarantee against abuse. An adult can
quickly slip a finger into the wrong place while he/she is cuddling
with a child, there is no asking first, it is over and done, and the
child is left too shocked or confused to know how to respond.
Even if a child is able to say "no" it has still happened. -=-
Well...
We can all live in constant fear and hiding.
We could all drink poison kool-aid and not worry about it anymore.
We could realize things can happen and still live our lives.
-=- As a parent I trust my radar. -=-
Fine. Some people's radar is set to go off if anyone looks at them. Some
have no radar at all. I would hope that discussions like this have to do with
rational and logical ways to consider what to do when radar isn't enough, or
when the parents aren't there.
-=-And no, someone does not get a second chance unless they
have demonstrated a high level of personal growth, healing and
ability to freely take responsibility for their past transgressions. -=-
I have no objection to that if it's clearly that. I have an objection to
people judging others forever and irrevocably, and it doesn't seem you're doing
that.
-=-THis is far too important an issue to do the "nice" thing, to put the
perpertrators needs before the child's needs of safety.-=-
My original recommendation was wrong. I took it back. This is the third
time I've said so.
I wasn't worried about "the perpetrator's needs." I was thinking of a child
who wanted to be there and who MIGHT could be prepared to be there safely.
I was thinking of the child.
-=-Sandra I really suggest that you read some material on this, as
owner of this group, and as an educator of parents about
children this is one topic that deserves to be fully understood
and not diminished in importance by wishful thinking.-=-
And I think you should back down a little because you're really pissing me
off with the stridency of your accusations that I basically don't know diddly
shit.
My mother was raped by her brother. He died within a year or two after, and
she never told her parents about the rape because he was missed and glorified
as the best of their children.
My sister was raped at knifepoint in an arroyo by two men who had raped
others, in front of a younger male friend (not boyfriend) when she was 14.
My sister in law was frightened (verbally not full touch) when she was
staying with an uncle in Hawaii and couldn't get away. She was 12. (She stood up f
or herself and avoided being alone with him thereafter, and warned others.)
My sister was insulted/propositioned by an uncle when she was 15 and in
Alaska and couldn't get away. (She stood up for herself and avoided being alone
with him thereafter, and warned others.)
I have other stories not so close, and most of the women I know were molested
one way or another, several by their own fathers. I have some male friends
who have admitted molestation to me, two by teenaged female babysitters.
Are there other lists which would be better for this discussion? Because
other than helping children know that they don't have to be where they don't want
to be, it's not an unschooling issue.
If a parent doesn't want to confront a parent who acted inappropriately in
ANY way, maybe that parent is right in just keeping the kids in arm's length,
but that is about the parent more than about the child. There are children of
retiring, quiet mothers who are not themselves as retiring and quiet and
fearful.
Holly was molested as a baby, by a five year old boy. Should I have
forbidden my children to play with other children? Should I have avoided La Leche
League because that's where I met the family? It seems his neighbor and perhaps
his mother was molesting him. His mother had been molested by her own father.
I was sad to cut off from that family, but I did. He had been Kirby's best
friend for a couple of years, and it was sad because the boy wasn't evil spawn
of Satan. He was himself an abused boy.
If we're not going to do some mass executions or suicides, we need to live in
the world as it is, and we do NOT always know who "the bad guys" are.
Sandra
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/26/04 5:44:18 AM, marymapel@... writes:
<< One more thought about sexual abuse. Sandra when you
suggest that empowering the child to say no is adequate
protection, what happens when that isn't enough? Does that
mean that it is the child's fault that they weren't strong enough? It
is not such a big leap to conclude this if you truly believe that all a
child needs is education and a "force field" in order to be
protected. Surey our children can not be held accountable for an
adults transgressions. >>
Then keep your children away from adults.
There's a first time for everything. Someone who's not YET a molester might
start with your child.
Keep them away from teenagers, too. And other children.
Maybe if you were abused yourself, that puts you at risk to be an abuser.
Sandra
<< One more thought about sexual abuse. Sandra when you
suggest that empowering the child to say no is adequate
protection, what happens when that isn't enough? Does that
mean that it is the child's fault that they weren't strong enough? It
is not such a big leap to conclude this if you truly believe that all a
child needs is education and a "force field" in order to be
protected. Surey our children can not be held accountable for an
adults transgressions. >>
Then keep your children away from adults.
There's a first time for everything. Someone who's not YET a molester might
start with your child.
Keep them away from teenagers, too. And other children.
Maybe if you were abused yourself, that puts you at risk to be an abuser.
Sandra