Mary Mapel

Sandra wrote:
A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never
pressed to the point of
full
blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for
messing with a
little boy
thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous
thing, "once-nasty,
altogether-nasty."

Sandra, a person does not change their unconscience
tendency to violate boundaries, and be sexually
innappropriate/abusive unless they have done the
personal examination/healing work to explore what lead
to that behaviour to begin with. This is something
that time does not heal. A child molester is a
dangerous person for any age child. Giving them
unsupervised access to any child is a dangerous thing,
period. No matter what we tell our child about saying
'no' etc... no force field in a child is a match for
adult energy. That is simply naive thinking, and
unsafe for the child. Also a violation is a
violation, no matter what happened, comparing one
violation to another and saying one is less of a
threat minimizes the suffering of person "just
touched" versus "raped". This is an uneducated belief
about abuse victims. I suggest reading "The Courage
to Heal" and "Allies in Healing" by Ellen Bass and
Laura Davis, for those truly interested in learning
more about sexual abuse and the effects on the victim.




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Mary Mapel

It's me again, after reading Dar's post and rereading
your and my post Heidi, I have to say that i agree
with Dar. I was imagining (having read incorrectly)
that you only hurt yourself once to make your point.
I agree with the general rule that it is not ok to
hurt yourself, someone else or the envirnoment. A
small demonstration might be acceptable but hurting
yourself to the point of physical bruising etc... is
not. I think that is totally confusing for a child,
and as Dar said sets the child up to feel responsible
for mamas hurt. The moment your daughter begins to
hurt herself, hold her close so that she can't, and
calmly repeat how much you love her and are going to
keep her safe.


________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 11:58:09 -0700
> From: freeform@...
> Subject: Re: thoughts about kids hurting themselves.
>
>
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 13:42:05 -0400 badolbilz
> <ynxn96@...>
> writes:
> > Then I told her that because she couldn't see how
> much it
> > hurt me when she hurt herself, I would show her.
> From then on,
> whenever
> > she hurt herself, I would do the same thing to
> myself. And I have.
>
> I have some really serious concerns about this
> technique. That's an
> awful lot of power and responsibility to put on one
> little person - the
> power to hurt Mommy, even when she didn't intend to.
> You're also modeling
> hurting yourself, which is exactly what you *don't*
> want her to do. It
> may "work" in the short term, but I would be really
> concerned with the
> longer-term implications.
>
> Rain at that age would very occasionally do or say
> something
> self-destructive, but she was more focused outward.
> I was physically
> self-destructive for years, though, and then later I
> worked in the mental
> health field with people who were physically
> self-destructive, and then
> even later I taught kids with emotional and
> behavioral disorders, some of
> whom would do self-destructive acts. What worked, in
> all cases, was to
> physically prevent self-destructive acts (when
> possible), while telling
> the person that you wouldn't permit anyone to hurt
> her while you were
> around because you cared about her and didn't want
> her to be hurt... and
> then refocus on resolving the issue at hand, the
> issue that triggered the
> self-destructiveness. It was important to stay very
> low-key and matter of
> fact, and to make it clear that you were emotionally
> strong enough to
> handle things. What made it worse was flipping out
> and yelling and
> getting emotional... which I know is harder than it
> sounds, especially
> with your own child, but it's important.
>
> This may not work as quickly as what you're doing,
> but I think it's a
> better soloution in the long run.
>
> Dar
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:17:05 -0400
> From: badolbilz <ynxn96@...>
> Subject: Re: thoughts about kids hurting themselves.
>
> I really do think that what I've been doing isn't
> right. But it's been
> an act of desperation. Your comments that I'm
> putting a great deal of
> responsability onto such a young person is true.
> Yikes. This is such a
> hard situation. The last thing I want to do is make
> things worse for
> her, but I need to stop her from doing these things.
> Heidi
>
> freeform@... wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 24 May 2004 13:42:05 -0400 badolbilz
> <ynxn96@...>
> >writes:
> >
> >
> >> Then I told her that because she couldn't see how
> much it
> >>hurt me when she hurt herself, I would show her.
> From then on,
> >>
> >>
> >whenever
> >
> >
> >>she hurt herself, I would do the same thing to
> myself. And I have.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I have some really serious concerns about this
> technique. That's an
> >awful lot of power and responsibility to put on one
> little person - the
> >power to hurt Mommy, even when she didn't intend
> to. You're also modeling
> >hurting yourself, which is exactly what you *don't*
> want her to do. It
> >may "work" in the short term, but I would be really
> concerned with the
> >longer-term implications.
> >
> >Rain at that age would very occasionally do or say
> something
> >self-destructive, but she was more focused outward.
> I was physically
> >self-destructive for years, though, and then later
> I worked in the mental
> >health field with people who were physically
> self-destructive, and then
> >even later I taught kids with emotional and
> behavioral disorders, some of
> >whom would do self-destructive acts. What worked,
> in all cases, was to
> >physically prevent self-destructive acts (when
> possible), while telling
> >the person that you wouldn't permit anyone to hurt
> her while you were
> >around because you cared about her and didn't want
> her to be hurt... and
> >then refocus on resolving the issue at hand, the
> issue that triggered the
> >self-destructiveness. It was important to stay very
> low-key and matter of
> >fact, and to make it clear that you were
> emotionally strong enough to
> >handle things. What made it worse was flipping out
> and yelling and
> >getting emotional... which I know is harder than it
> sounds, especially
> >with your own child, but it's important.
> >
> >This may not work as quickly as what you're doing,
> but I think it's a
> >better soloution in the long run.
> >
> >Dar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 00:29:03 -0000
> From: "foxymophandlemama32"
> <mjsolich@...>
> Subject: Re: thoughts about kids hurting themselves.
>
> > What worked, in all cases, was to physically
> prevent self-
> destructive acts (when possible), while telling the
> person that you
> wouldn't permit anyone to hurt her while you were
> around because you
> cared about her and didn't want her to be hurt...
> and then refocus on
> resolving the issue at hand, the issue that
> triggered the self-
> destructiveness. It was important to stay very
> low-key and matter of
> fact, and to make it clear that you were emotionally
> strong enough
> to handle things. What made it worse was flipping
> out and yelling and
> getting emotional... which I know is harder than it
> sounds,
> especially with your own child, but it's important.
> This may not work as quickly as what you're doing,
> but I think it's
> a better soloution in the long run.
>
> Dar
>
> In the first year of marriage, I went through some
> pretty tough stuff
> with my dh and I found myself at times scratching my
> arms up or
> something similar. For me it was about feeling out
> of control. I
> didn't know whether I had a right to feel the way I
> did and whether I
> was the problem in our marriage and when I reached a
> point of huge
> emotional confusion (usually after an argument)I
> would hurt myself
> because at least I knew that I was responsible for
> *this* pain. I
> think too that it was a way of punishing myself and
> if I did this
> then Mark wouldn't feel the need to continue to make
> me feel bad. I
> know that if someone had done to me what Dar is
> suggesting, I would
> have responded positively.
>
> Julie, went no mail several months ago so haven't
> posted in ages
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 17:47:49 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mary Mapel <marymapel@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1275
>
> Hi Sandra, I appreciate the discussion we are
> having
> and the thoughts that you have shared. I would like
> to add a few clarifying thoughts of my own.
>
> ...on choice, below you responded to my point about
> reaction versus choice...
>
> ...I don't think anyone ever chooses "the exact
> opposite" in all things........But with unschooling
> it's neither of those things.....
>
> I never meant to imply that someone would choose the
> opposite in all things, however in individual things
> like how we discipline, how we nurture, how we set
> boundaries, etc... the choice itself may either be a
> conscious choice or a reaction depending on how much
> we have resolved any issues, should there be any
> that
> would influence a reaction versus a true choice. To
> just outright say that with unschooling this is not
> the case, in my opinion is a generalization that
> does
> not take into account the personal experience of the
> individual in the given situation.
>
> Again to my point about inadequate boundaries where
> i
> write:
>
> -=- Inadequate boundaries leaves the child not
> knowing
> what is and is not safe, they don't know where the
> parent actually is, and that is a scary feeling.-=-
>
> You responded by saying,
>
> "That's not an issue with attachment parenting."
>
> Well, on one level I agree with you, true AP honors
> the full needs of the child including the needed
> boundaries etc..., however, given that we are all
> human, we bring into our parenting experiences both
> the healthy and unhealthy influences from our past.
> At times these influences negatively effect our
> ability to set healthy boundaries even when in
> theory
> we are APing. I have witnessed many AP parents
> struggle with their own childhood issues and
> therefore
> at times be unable to identify the true needs of
> their
> child. Parenting consciously is a ongoing growth
> experience. We are not Gods, we make mistakes, we
> learn. The decision to practice AP while a huge
> step
> in the right direction, does not excempt us from
> these
> lessons, or from the influences of our past. Only
> our
> personal committment to seperating out our own
> issues
> from those of our child will allow our children to
> unfold naturally.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 18:49:46 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mary Mapel <marymapel@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1275
>
> Hi Heidi,
>
> I am glad that you are finding a solution that seems
> to be working. My son went through a few infrequent
> expressions of wanting to hurt himself if he didn't
> get his way. My response, was to hold him closely,
> tell him i love him, and show how sad i was to see
> him
> do that. I told him it was my job to protect him,
> and
> i wasn't going to let him hurt himself. So i rocked
> him, cuddled him, nursed him. I directed his
> anger/frustration outwards to hitting pillows, or
> giving him the language that could help him
> articulate
> his feelings. I matched his intonations with equal
> passion when he verbalized "I want to...", I
> repeated
> his statements to let him know i heard him. I
> affirmed his right to be angry. And because i loved
> him it was my job to keep him safe. He seemed to
> get
> it, and let it go as an option.
>
> It sounds to me like your solution is very similar.
>
> You surround her with love, and let her know it is
> sad
> for you when she hurts herself. Repeating the
> injury
> on yourself, is dramatic. My only concern is that
> it
> might be hard to understand why mommy can do it and
> not her, but it sounds like she is getting the
> underlying message which is both mommy and she
> should
> not hurt themselves. I would say trust your
> intuition
> on this one, and observe her response. The comment
> by
> another list member about being careful about
> therapists is a good one. As a counselor myself, i
> hate to say that there are many professionals out
> there that are not child centered, and are quick to
> label and create more problem than previously
> existed.
> Having said all that, it is a gem to find a truly
> AP
> centered therapist who provides the needed help.
> Someone mentioned Jan Hunt. Jan is wonderful. I
> have
> spoken with her and she is great. I found her
> particular useful for information and resouces, as
> well as normalizing the sometimes unheard of
> behaviours that our children sometimes choose. If
> you
> were wanting to do your own deep work around an
> issue
> however, then someone else might be a better choice,
> as i found Jan to be more of an educator than a
> therapist. (This might be perfect)
>
> In my response to you I didn't mean for it to
> sound
> like I definately thought that you were
> "unparenting",
> however i did wonder if healthy boundaries were in
> place. I am glad to hear that they are. You are
> absolutely right when you say "you can't always do
> as
> she demands", and your statement let's me know that
> you do have boundaries with her. The video choice,
> even though it is Disney, still concerns me. It is
> not a choice that i would make. Even though the self
> hurting behaviour began before the videos started i
> would still be very selective about showing them. I
> am
> curious to know what harm you think could come from
> limiting her viewing or something that potentially
> may
> be disturbing to her? I agree with the other reader
> that said she might be a wonderfully sensitive child
> who has difficultly processing the images in these
> videos. However, above all, I think that after
> gathering all the information, you are the best one
> to
> make the decision for your child, and you will
> ultimately know what is best.
>
>
> Any way Heidi, I wish you the best. blessings,
> mary
>
>
> > Message: 14
> > Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 13:42:05 -0400
> > From: badolbilz <ynxn96@...>
> > Subject: Re: thoughts about kids hurting
> themselves.
> >
> > Thank you, Mary. We have changed our lifestyle
> > since becoming
> > unschoolers, but not to a point of outright
> > unparenting, which is what I
> > suspect you read into it. My comment on her
> perhaps
> > picking up violence
> > from movies was based on movies like Sinbad and
> > other cartoon-types
> > where someone gets killed. Perhaps she's not
> ready
> > for these things,
> > but she is interested in watching them and I feel
> it
> > would be more
> > harmful to forbid these things than to let her
> > watch.
> >
> > Mostly, she hurts herself or threatens to when she
> > doesn't get her way.
> > An example would be if I don't do what she asked
> at
> > just that moment,
> > she threatens to hurt herself. If I get after her
> > for doing something
> > inapproriate to one of her sisters, she may
> threaten
> > to kill herself.
> > In reading that, you may think she's just
> spoiled.
> > The worry then is
> > sometimes she actually will hurt herself. Then
> > older she gets, there
> > are more ways she can hurt herself. I can't
> always
> > do as she demands.
> > I can't punish her for hurting herself. I
> haven'e
> > been able to stop
> > her from hurting herself. I have thought long and
> > hard about what to do
> > to help her learn to deal with impatience, anger,
> > and frustration. It
> > could be just a stage she's going through at 3
> 1/2.
> > What really bothers
> > me is that she's been hurting herself since about
> 18
> > months. It
> > definitely wasn't from watching movies and tv
> then.
> >
> > So I've began a new strategy. It's rather extreme
> > and I really don't
> > know if it's the "right" thing to do...but she
> > hasn't hurt herself in
> > over two weeks. It began like this: After one
> > episode where she was
> > yanking her hair and threatening to run out in the
> > street to get hit by
> > a car, I say her on my lap and said that I loved
> > her. That every time
> > she got hurt, it hurt me because I love her so
> much.
> > I told her that I
> > gave birth to her out of my tummy because I wanted
> > her to be alive and
> > to be happy. Then I told her that because she
> > couldn't see how much it
> > hurt me when she hurt herself, I would show her.
> > From then on, whenever
> > she hurt herself, I would do the same thing to
> > myself. And I have. The
> > last time she's hurt herself was at this computer.
>
> > She was upset
> > because the game she was playing was too hard so
> she
> > began to slam her
> > knee on the edge of the desk. So I did the same.
> I
> > ended up cutting my
> > knee in two places and making a huge bruise. I
> know
> > this sounds awful
> > and very dramatic and I guess it is. But it made
> a
> > huge impression on
> > her. She was very upset to see her mommy hurt. I
> > told her that's how
> > upset I feel when she hurts herself.
> >
> > I have no idea if this is the right thing to do.
> > But it's all I could
> > think of.
> >
> > Thank you for your insights. Heidi
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:56:12 -0700
> From: joylyn <joylyn@...>
> Subject: Re: Speaking of Musicals
>
> Thanks everyone!
>
> Joylyn
>
> nellebelle wrote:
>
> > Just be prepared for the brutal murder scene!
> Definitely great songs
> > and cute kids though. I loved that movie when it
> came out.
> >
> > Mary Ellen
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > How about Oliver!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> >
> >
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>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:57:33 -0700
> From: joylyn <joylyn@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Speaking of Musicals
>
> Hair wouldn't be possible. Some songs are OK, but
> the drug scenes are a
> bit much....
>
> My girls were just in peter pan. In the play
> Tinkerbell calls Wendy an
> "Ass". The director changed it to "fool". :-(
>
> Joylyn
>
> Nichole in Round Rock wrote:
>
> > Did anyone mention HAIR ?
> >
> > I'm listening to a kids radio station our of New
> York right now and a
> > bunch of kids are singing Hair. It's great!!
> >
> > Rocky Horror Picture Show? Well, that one might
> not do. lol
> > TOMMY
> >
> > And don't almost every single Indian (Hindi) movie
> ever made.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tia Leschke
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Speaking of
> Musicals
> >
> >
> > At 08:51 AM 5/20/2004, you wrote:
> >
> > >In a message dated 5/20/04 12:17:11 AM,
> DACunefare@... writes:
> > >
> > ><< Little Shop of Horrors >>
> > >
> > >Language.
> > >Darn it.
> >
> > Not necessarily. The local middle school did
> that one here a few
> > years ago.
> > Tia
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:58:30 -0700
> From: joylyn <joylyn@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Speaking of Musicals
>
> My 9 year old has the musical memorized. IT's her
> favorite. It's led
> to a lot of great conversations about Vietnam,
> drugs, the draft, etc.
> etc. But that's my own kid. I can't let my 6th
> graders watch it.
>
> Joylyn
>
> Nichole in Round Rock wrote:
>
> > I first watched Hair when I was in Fifth grade,
> and watched about 20
> > times on HBO, when we used to call it Home Box.
> >
> > :o)
> >
> > Nichole
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paula Sjogerman
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 3:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Speaking of
> Musicals
> >
> >
> > on 5/22/04 11:32 AM, Nichole in Round Rock at
> skhosaeviani@...
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Did anyone mention HAIR ?
> >
> > The original poster's question was about
> musicals appropriate for a
> > public
> > school 6th (I think) grade. I LOVE Hair, but
> appropriate, it's not.
> >
> > Paula
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 19:59:32 -0700
> From: joylyn <joylyn@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Speaking of Musicals
>
>
>
> Elizabeth Hill wrote:
>
> >
> > "S----------, F--------, C------------, P--------
> > Father, why do these words sound so nasty?
> > M---------- can be fun!
> > Join the holy orgy kama sutras everyone."
> >
> > (Hope I remembered it right. Bonus points for
> everyone who knows
> > which 5 words were omitted and what they mean.
> <eg>)
>
> I know them.
>
> Lexie doesn't. Funny, she usually fast forwards
> through that song and
> hasn't asked any questions about it (although she
> has asked other
> questions about other scenes). Hmmmm
>
> Joylyn
>
> >
> >
> > Betsy
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 20:03:33 -0700
> From: joylyn <joylyn@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Speaking of Musicals
>
>
>
> freeform@... wrote:
>
> >
> > I think Peter Pan would be fun. A lot of old stuff
> that isn't PC makes a
> > great springboard for discussion,
>
>
> Lexie decided that the Indians in Peter Pan were
> Native Neverlanders.
>
> Joylyn
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:23:33 EDT
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: attachment parenting stuff (don't have
> original title)
>
>
> In a message dated 5/24/04 6:49:49 PM,
> marymapel@... writes:
>
> << I have witnessed many AP parents
> struggle with their own childhood issues and
> therefore
> at times be unable to identify the true needs of
> their
> child. Parenting consciously is a ongoing growth
> experience. >>
>
> I'm probably generalizing discussions from
> www.unschooling.com and
> [email protected]
>
> The ongoing discussion for years has involved people
> being aware of why and
> what so they can be makig decisions as clearly as
> they can, based on principles
> and priorities.
>
> In a way, we don't need to identify the true needs
> of our children if we give
> them enough leeway to indicate by choosing one thing
> over another how much
> closeness they want, how much activity or quiet they
> want, etc.
>
> I think my kids need safety and a lot of freedom
> within that safe
> environment. (Some people's "safety" would be
> repression or restriction from my point of
> view, I know.) I think they need opportunities and
> experiences and input,
> and the right and power to say "No thanks, not now,
> not that."
>
> Some "childhood issues" are not "issues" in the
> sense that they're emotional
> infections. Some are just calm awarenesses of
> things we think hindered more
> than helped. Spankings. Being put to bed in a
> dark room and made to stay
> there even with bad dreams. Those aren't "issues"
> for me, but those things
> happened and I decided they were not the way to go.
> So am I person who has
> decided thoughtlessly to "just" do the opposite of
> what my mother did?
>
> It seems more direct to me for people who are
> talking about unschooling to
> move toward what will help their children learn
> without school, and develop into
> confident, happy people. Whether or not someone's
> parents spanked, spanking
> doesn't help with any of that. Some people don't
> spank because their
> parents didn't. Some don't spank because their
> parents did.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 23:49:29 -0400
> From: badolbilz <ynxn96@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: thoughts about kids hurting
> themselves.
>
> Julie, I'm sorry to hear you went through such a bad
> time. You say that
> the times you hurt yourself were times when you were
> h




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Mary Mapel

Hi Dana, upon reading your response i realize that my
post is probably a little vague. I think there is a
big difference in overprotection such as you are
suspecting me of, and healthy boundaries which allows
a child to feel secure. Children need to know that
someone is looking out for their safety and well
being. When they test limits and the limits are not
enforced it leaves them with a feeling that they are
in charge. Even though they may be able to see their
parent, they don't experience the benefits of a parent
who is appropriately holding the space that is needed
for the child to unfold in a healthy manner.
therefore my previous phrase "they don't know where
their parent actually is". This is meant on the
emotional level.

A child is not old enough to be in charge of their
overall well being, safety, etc... Everything needs
to be developmentally based. What is appropriate for
an eight year old to decide for him or herself is not
appropriate for a five or two year old. A young child
can not be expected to have the discernment and
attunement, nor know the consequences of their
actions. They do not have the mental and emotionally
maturity of an adult. Letting them decide and then
process the results can have huge consequences when
the trial involves material that the child is not
emotionally prepared to handle. So yes, i will screen
my sons books while he is young. Yes i do monitor the
computer while he is young. This is called healthy
protection. If he came across something that
overwhelmed him, talking about it would not erase the
negative impact, it might lessen it but some damage
might still be done.

Would you really let a five year old access to
pornography, murder scenes, etc... I hope not!

Mary


Dana and I wrote previously:
> -=- Inadequate boundaries leaves the child not
> knowing
> what is and is not safe, they don't know where the
> parent actually is, and that is a scary feeling.-=-
>

Mary, when you say this it reminds me of my neighbor,
who told me she couldn't let her kids out of the house
anymore during the day, because when she was drunk she
always lost them, which made her husband mad...

But seriously, what kind of "adequate boundaries" are
you suggesting need to be in our children's lives? To
keep them away from age-inappropriate movies? Maybe
plug in our TV and internet watch dogs to keep them
from straying into that which they surely don't
need...even if they want it? Oh, better read all of
their library books before they do as well....there
might be something suspect in them....

In our house, the viewer decides for him and herself
what to watch, and no one else...But mom and dad are
there to discuss before, during and after what they
might see.....Does that make me a "bad" parent, Mary?
I don't see my children looking around saying "Where
is my mother! I'm scared!" as you suggest....

Perhaps I am misreading you, but I think there are
many unschoolers who would have "inadequate
boundaries" in your opinion.....

Dana
in Montana




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J. Stauffer

<<<<< So yes, i will screen
> my sons books while he is young. Yes i do monitor the
> computer while he is young. This is called healthy
> protection. If he came across something that
> overwhelmed him, talking about it would not erase the
> negative impact, it might lessen it but some damage
> might still be done.>>>>>


Actually, it is called controlling his access to information. There is
nothing in a book or a movie that is going to "damage" a child. He might
find something upsetting, or a bit frightening, but not "damaging".

<<<<When they test limits and the limits are not
> enforced it leaves them with a feeling that they are
> in charge.>>>>

This is liable to be a sticking point for you around here. But in
unschooling, children ARE in charge. Who better to know what might frighten
them or concern them than the child themselves?

Julie S.---former tv control person
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Mapel" <marymapel@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Digest Number 1276


> Hi Dana, upon reading your response i realize that my
> post is probably a little vague. I think there is a
> big difference in overprotection such as you are
> suspecting me of, and healthy boundaries which allows
> a child to feel secure. Children need to know that
> someone is looking out for their safety and well
> being. When they test limits and the limits are not
> enforced it leaves them with a feeling that they are
> in charge. Even though they may be able to see their
> parent, they don't experience the benefits of a parent
> who is appropriately holding the space that is needed
> for the child to unfold in a healthy manner.
> therefore my previous phrase "they don't know where
> their parent actually is". This is meant on the
> emotional level.
>
> A child is not old enough to be in charge of their
> overall well being, safety, etc... Everything needs
> to be developmentally based. What is appropriate for
> an eight year old to decide for him or herself is not
> appropriate for a five or two year old. A young child
> can not be expected to have the discernment and
> attunement, nor know the consequences of their
> actions. They do not have the mental and emotionally
> maturity of an adult. Letting them decide and then
> process the results can have huge consequences when
> the trial involves material that the child is not
> emotionally prepared to handle. So yes, i will screen
> my sons books while he is young. Yes i do monitor the
> computer while he is young. This is called healthy
> protection. If he came across something that
> overwhelmed him, talking about it would not erase the
> negative impact, it might lessen it but some damage
> might still be done.
>
> Would you really let a five year old access to
> pornography, murder scenes, etc... I hope not!
>
> Mary
>
>
> Dana and I wrote previously:
> > -=- Inadequate boundaries leaves the child not
> > knowing
> > what is and is not safe, they don't know where the
> > parent actually is, and that is a scary feeling.-=-
> >
>
> Mary, when you say this it reminds me of my neighbor,
> who told me she couldn't let her kids out of the house
> anymore during the day, because when she was drunk she
> always lost them, which made her husband mad...
>
> But seriously, what kind of "adequate boundaries" are
> you suggesting need to be in our children's lives? To
> keep them away from age-inappropriate movies? Maybe
> plug in our TV and internet watch dogs to keep them
> from straying into that which they surely don't
> need...even if they want it? Oh, better read all of
> their library books before they do as well....there
> might be something suspect in them....
>
> In our house, the viewer decides for him and herself
> what to watch, and no one else...But mom and dad are
> there to discuss before, during and after what they
> might see.....Does that make me a "bad" parent, Mary?
> I don't see my children looking around saying "Where
> is my mother! I'm scared!" as you suggest....
>
> Perhaps I am misreading you, but I think there are
> many unschoolers who would have "inadequate
> boundaries" in your opinion.....
>
> Dana
> in Montana
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://messenger.yahoo.com/
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dana Matt

> Would you really let a five year old access to
> pornography, murder scenes, etc... I hope not!
>
> Mary
>
I have not yet met a 5 year old who wanted access to
murder and porn, have you? So it's a moot point,
isn't it.

It's like saying "You have to control your kids or
they will X, Y and z"....And then make up some wild
statements about what they will do if not
controlled....

Dana




__________________________________
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http://messenger.yahoo.com/

Dana Matt

>
> > Would you really let a five year old access to
> > pornography, murder scenes, etc... I hope not!
> >
> > Mary
> >

> I have not yet met a 5 year old who wanted access to
> murder and porn, have you? So it's a moot point,
> isn't it.

I am rethinking myself....When I read "murder" I
thought "snuff films"....If you are talking about tv
shows and movies where people are killed, then yeah,
of course my 5 year old has seen them. As well as
sex. She watches Buffy the Vampire Slayer with me
daily. Among other things. And she is not damaged...

Dana




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[email protected]

In a message dated 5/26/04 8:30:19 AM, hoffmanwilson@... writes:

<< It's like saying "You have to control your kids or
they will X, Y and z"....And then make up some wild
statements about what they will do if not
controlled.... >>

Parents do that without even realizing it, I think. Order in their universe
is accredited directly to parental control. My favorite, I think, is that if
we let them, six year old kids would get in the van and go to grandmas.
That's been used twice just in the past year as a dire prediction of lack of
control. If we gave them the car keys, they would...

Not so.
Silly conclusion.

Lots of us have the car keys hanging in plain view or on a table by the back
door, and nobody has reported kids driving to grandma's.

My collection of dire predictions is here:

http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet

All mounded up that way, it makes it easier to see them for what they are.

Sandra

phred

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Mapel" <marymapel@y...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Digest Number 1276

<<<Children need to know that
someone is looking out for their safety and well
being. When they test limits and the limits are not
enforced it leaves them with a feeling that they are
in charge. Even though they may be able to see their
parent, they don't experience the benefits of a parent
who is appropriately holding the space that is needed
for the child to unfold in a healthy manner.>>>

Whats wrong with a child being in charge of their own life? Don't
they know what's best for them at any given moment? They know what it
is that they need and want, shouldn't they make the choices that
affect them and their life?

<<<A child is not old enough to be in charge of their
overall well being, safety, etc... Everything needs
to be developmentally based. What is appropriate for
an eight year old to decide for him or herself is not
appropriate for a five or two year old.>>>

Okay, who makes that discernment, the child or the parent? What would
be okay for and 8yr old to decide that a 5yr old shouldn't decide?

<<<A young child
can not be expected to have the discernment and
attunement, nor know the consequences of their
actions.>>>

Why not? Jaiden(5) is really good about knowing what's okay for him.
He really wanted to stay up and watch Evil Dead with us. We didn't
have a problem with him watching it, we said okay. He then asked us
if it was a really scary movie. We said, yah kinda. He thought about
it and asked us if we would watch it with him in the morning, that
way if it scared him too much he could go and play instead of going
to bed. He decides the next morning that it was a little to scary for
him right now, but he'd like to try again when he's 8.

<<<They do not have the mental and emotionally
maturity of an adult.>>>

Well....I know lots of adults that my kids are waaayyyy more mentally
and emotionally mature than. And they are 2.5 and 5.5 :)

Letting them decide and then
process the results can have huge consequences when
the trial involves material that the child is not
emotionally prepared to handle.>>>

But they aren't making the decisions and then processing them in a
vacume. They are with parents that love them, care about them and
respect the fact that they are individuals with needs, wants and
desires of their own.

<<<So yes, i will screen
my sons books while he is young. Yes i do monitor the
computer while he is young. This is called healthy
protection. If he came across something that
overwhelmed him, talking about it would not erase the
negative impact, it might lessen it but some damage
might still be done.>>>

We have never refused a book, computer game, video game....that our
kids have shown an interest in. If we had Jaiden may not have the
passion for ancient Egypt that he has, all because of the Mummy
movies he watched when he was 1!

Why does overwhelming have to have a negitive impact? I'm often
overwhelmed-UnschoolingDiscussion overwhelms me almost every day ;)-
I am curious what negitive impact you think books, games and movies
would have, that may cause damage that may not be able to be undone?

<<<Would you
really let a five year old access to
pornography, murder scenes, etc... I hope not!>>>

Both of my boys have access to the world, and everything in it. They
are both facinated with car chases, monsters, and 80's horror movies.
Avery(2.5) doesn't notice kissing and love scenes in movies. And
Jaiden will sometimes watch them and sometimes looks down and playes
with the tons of toys that frequently watch movies with us. So far
neither of them have shown interest in watching porn. We'll cross
that bridge when we come to it. No biggie...

~Rebecca

J. Stauffer

<<<< Order in their universe
> is accredited directly to parental control. My favorite, I think, is that
if
> we let them, six year old kids would get in the van and go to grandmas.
>>>>

My son just got his first paycheck and so of course we spent it on the way
home <grin>. He bought a rifle. When we got home, the first thing he did
was ask if I thought it was ok for him to take the gun out of the box at the
kitchen table, rather than back in a bedroom, since the little guys were
playing outside.

He immediately put the trigger lock on.

Zach is 10.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Murder and Porn...


>
> In a message dated 5/26/04 8:30:19 AM, hoffmanwilson@... writes:
>
> << It's like saying "You have to control your kids or
> they will X, Y and z"....And then make up some wild
> statements about what they will do if not
> controlled.... >>
>
> Parents do that without even realizing it, I think. Order in their
universe
> is accredited directly to parental control. My favorite, I think, is that
if
> we let them, six year old kids would get in the van and go to grandmas.
> That's been used twice just in the past year as a dire prediction of lack
of
> control. If we gave them the car keys, they would...
>
> Not so.
> Silly conclusion.
>
> Lots of us have the car keys hanging in plain view or on a table by the
back
> door, and nobody has reported kids driving to grandma's.
>
> My collection of dire predictions is here:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/strew/ifilet
>
> All mounded up that way, it makes it easier to see them for what they are.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>