autonomous learning? vs. protecting
eriksmama2001
I have an only son who will be three years old next week. We are non-
coercive, attachment parenting, unschooling. Relative to his
relationship with my father, I am trying to be aware of how to
proceed in trusting ds to decide what he needs to learn and to
whether he chooses to associate with this man. As children, my sister
and I were punished with belts, switches, restrictions and shame.
(standard parenting in the 70's). We also had our body integrity
invaded by rare genital fondling, "hugging" with breasts touched,
and "kisses" on the mouth against our stated wishes. Our mother was
basically not aware of this and truly was unable to prevent these
invasions of our body space or hers. I recall this occurring from age
7ish to 15ish. My father was a young man who came from a very
dysfunctional family.
This occurred 25-35 years ago. My father and I maintained a
superficial and distant relationship from several states apart. I
never addressed these issues and resolved that this would never
happen in our relationship again because of my own self value and
right to my body integrity. Over the years he seems to have matured
and we developed a long distance relationship based upon a few things
in common as adults: gargening, travel, etc. Always, I have been
vigilant about my body around him. My husband and I have visited with
him and his new wife a couple times a year over the past ten years.
In 2001, my husband and I decided to have a child after 18 years of
marriage. BIG adjustments all around! :)!!!!
Subsequently, my father retired and moved within 30 miles of us. Now
he wants a family relationship with us visiting frequently. I have
felt obligated to have him in our son's life on a monthly basis.
Obviously, we have serious differences about parenting, but he has
only complained about access to his grandson. Recently, I have
addressed the fact that we use no punishments, giving info, etc.
instead. He stated that ds "would not learn right from wrong" and
that "he believed in using fear and intimidation". I AM QUOTING HIM.
I offered to share my parenting books with alternative tools.
Basically now my son loves "paw-paw".
Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to develop
this relationship?
coercive, attachment parenting, unschooling. Relative to his
relationship with my father, I am trying to be aware of how to
proceed in trusting ds to decide what he needs to learn and to
whether he chooses to associate with this man. As children, my sister
and I were punished with belts, switches, restrictions and shame.
(standard parenting in the 70's). We also had our body integrity
invaded by rare genital fondling, "hugging" with breasts touched,
and "kisses" on the mouth against our stated wishes. Our mother was
basically not aware of this and truly was unable to prevent these
invasions of our body space or hers. I recall this occurring from age
7ish to 15ish. My father was a young man who came from a very
dysfunctional family.
This occurred 25-35 years ago. My father and I maintained a
superficial and distant relationship from several states apart. I
never addressed these issues and resolved that this would never
happen in our relationship again because of my own self value and
right to my body integrity. Over the years he seems to have matured
and we developed a long distance relationship based upon a few things
in common as adults: gargening, travel, etc. Always, I have been
vigilant about my body around him. My husband and I have visited with
him and his new wife a couple times a year over the past ten years.
In 2001, my husband and I decided to have a child after 18 years of
marriage. BIG adjustments all around! :)!!!!
Subsequently, my father retired and moved within 30 miles of us. Now
he wants a family relationship with us visiting frequently. I have
felt obligated to have him in our son's life on a monthly basis.
Obviously, we have serious differences about parenting, but he has
only complained about access to his grandson. Recently, I have
addressed the fact that we use no punishments, giving info, etc.
instead. He stated that ds "would not learn right from wrong" and
that "he believed in using fear and intimidation". I AM QUOTING HIM.
I offered to share my parenting books with alternative tools.
Basically now my son loves "paw-paw".
Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to develop
this relationship?
Angela
I personally wouldn't feel *obligated* to have him in my life, esp. on a
regular basis. I would never in a million years leave my child alone with
him. EVER! I would only visit with the understanding that he is not to
ever even try to discipline my child. I would visit only if I felt we all
benefited from it.
Angela
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...
I have
felt obligated to have him in our son's life on a monthly basis.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
regular basis. I would never in a million years leave my child alone with
him. EVER! I would only visit with the understanding that he is not to
ever even try to discipline my child. I would visit only if I felt we all
benefited from it.
Angela
<mailto:game-enthusiast@...> game-enthusiast@...
I have
felt obligated to have him in our son's life on a monthly basis.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/25/2004 1:07:04 AM Central Standard Time,
scubamama@... writes:
Subsequently, my father retired and moved within 30 miles of us. Now
he wants a family relationship with us visiting frequently. I have
felt obligated to have him in our son's life on a monthly basis.
Obviously, we have serious differences about parenting, but he has
only complained about access to his grandson. Recently, I have
addressed the fact that we use no punishments, giving info, etc.
instead. He stated that ds "would not learn right from wrong" and
that "he believed in using fear and intimidation". I AM QUOTING HIM.
I offered to share my parenting books with alternative tools.
Basically now my son loves "paw-paw".
~~~
Your father hasn't earned the right to give you parenting advice. I assume
you haven't discussed with him the inappropriate touching that he inflicted on
you as a child? He's probably hoping you never do, or thinking that you don't
remember. Otherwise, I would hope he would be entirely too remorseful to
presume he can tell you how to parent. He doesn't sound remorseful to me, but
rather that he's feeling entitled.
I would probably not leave my child alone with him, and I would set very
strict limits on the activities they can do together, and I would probably make
sure my father knew why I was doing thus and that he could never earn the right
to be alone with my child. OTOH, a three year old doesn't understand these
issues, and explaining to him why he can't go and do such-and-such with his
grandpa would be pointless, as he would never understand. So, you have to
carefully control the environment when they are together, and you have to do that
without your son feeling the control, so he can enjoy his time with someone he
loves, and still not be in danger.
Unfortunately, you'd have to get cooperation from your father that he would
not entice your son with offers of trips to the ice cream parlor, or to push
him on the swing alone in the backyard. Your father would have to be willing to
direct all requests to you first, before he mentioned it to your son, and
direct your son to you first, when he comes up with his own ideas for grandpa.
If he's not willing to do that, then I'm afraid I would have to eliminate him
from my son's life.
I'm sorry you were treated that way as a child.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
scubamama@... writes:
Subsequently, my father retired and moved within 30 miles of us. Now
he wants a family relationship with us visiting frequently. I have
felt obligated to have him in our son's life on a monthly basis.
Obviously, we have serious differences about parenting, but he has
only complained about access to his grandson. Recently, I have
addressed the fact that we use no punishments, giving info, etc.
instead. He stated that ds "would not learn right from wrong" and
that "he believed in using fear and intimidation". I AM QUOTING HIM.
I offered to share my parenting books with alternative tools.
Basically now my son loves "paw-paw".
~~~
Your father hasn't earned the right to give you parenting advice. I assume
you haven't discussed with him the inappropriate touching that he inflicted on
you as a child? He's probably hoping you never do, or thinking that you don't
remember. Otherwise, I would hope he would be entirely too remorseful to
presume he can tell you how to parent. He doesn't sound remorseful to me, but
rather that he's feeling entitled.
I would probably not leave my child alone with him, and I would set very
strict limits on the activities they can do together, and I would probably make
sure my father knew why I was doing thus and that he could never earn the right
to be alone with my child. OTOH, a three year old doesn't understand these
issues, and explaining to him why he can't go and do such-and-such with his
grandpa would be pointless, as he would never understand. So, you have to
carefully control the environment when they are together, and you have to do that
without your son feeling the control, so he can enjoy his time with someone he
loves, and still not be in danger.
Unfortunately, you'd have to get cooperation from your father that he would
not entice your son with offers of trips to the ice cream parlor, or to push
him on the swing alone in the backyard. Your father would have to be willing to
direct all requests to you first, before he mentioned it to your son, and
direct your son to you first, when he comes up with his own ideas for grandpa.
If he's not willing to do that, then I'm afraid I would have to eliminate him
from my son's life.
I'm sorry you were treated that way as a child.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Diana Tashjian
What was his attitude when you shared your books and ideas? Is he
respectful of your parenting views? Is he willing to learn new ways?
Diana Tashjian
respectful of your parenting views? Is he willing to learn new ways?
Diana Tashjian
----- Original Message -----
From: "eriksmama2001" <scubamama@...>
<snip>
He stated that ds "would not learn right from wrong" and
> that "he believed in using fear and intimidation". I AM QUOTING HIM.
> I offered to share my parenting books with alternative tools.
> Basically now my son loves "paw-paw".
>
> Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to
develop
> this relationship?
J. Stauffer
<<<<Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to develop
pedophile? Someone who you yourself were unable to protect yourself from?
You have got to be kidding.
Julie S.
> this relationship?>>>>>You're asking our advice on your son developing a relationship with a known
pedophile? Someone who you yourself were unable to protect yourself from?
You have got to be kidding.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "eriksmama2001" <scubamama@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 1:28 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] autonomous learning? vs. protecting
> I have an only son who will be three years old next week. We are non-
> coercive, attachment parenting, unschooling. Relative to his
> relationship with my father, I am trying to be aware of how to
> proceed in trusting ds to decide what he needs to learn and to
> whether he chooses to associate with this man. As children, my sister
> and I were punished with belts, switches, restrictions and shame.
> (standard parenting in the 70's). We also had our body integrity
> invaded by rare genital fondling, "hugging" with breasts touched,
> and "kisses" on the mouth against our stated wishes. Our mother was
> basically not aware of this and truly was unable to prevent these
> invasions of our body space or hers. I recall this occurring from age
> 7ish to 15ish. My father was a young man who came from a very
> dysfunctional family.
>
> This occurred 25-35 years ago. My father and I maintained a
> superficial and distant relationship from several states apart. I
> never addressed these issues and resolved that this would never
> happen in our relationship again because of my own self value and
> right to my body integrity. Over the years he seems to have matured
> and we developed a long distance relationship based upon a few things
> in common as adults: gargening, travel, etc. Always, I have been
> vigilant about my body around him. My husband and I have visited with
> him and his new wife a couple times a year over the past ten years.
>
> In 2001, my husband and I decided to have a child after 18 years of
> marriage. BIG adjustments all around! :)!!!!
>
> Subsequently, my father retired and moved within 30 miles of us. Now
> he wants a family relationship with us visiting frequently. I have
> felt obligated to have him in our son's life on a monthly basis.
> Obviously, we have serious differences about parenting, but he has
> only complained about access to his grandson. Recently, I have
> addressed the fact that we use no punishments, giving info, etc.
> instead. He stated that ds "would not learn right from wrong" and
> that "he believed in using fear and intimidation". I AM QUOTING HIM.
> I offered to share my parenting books with alternative tools.
> Basically now my son loves "paw-paw".
>
> Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to develop
> this relationship?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Sylvia Toyama
Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to develop this relationship?
*****
Given what you've told us, I certainly wouldn't provide any unsupervised access to your son. Tho your son loves his pawpaw, and you say that you and your Dad have moved to a relationship of some sort.
Growing up, I had that 70's childhool -- belts, switches, etc -- but no personal history of molestation you describe. I left home hating my Dad, and slowly established my own adult relationship with him. He lives in the same town as we do, so the boys see him maybe once or twice a month. My husband and I do want them to have some relationship with him, if only because we grew up without grandfathers. Also, with some years to grow he's softened from my childhood days, so it's been easier.
He offers a perspective and experiences to them, shares an interest in trains, and has done some cool things with them. He even travelled by car with 4 of the grandchildren (my oldest, my brother's kids and my sister's son) and they all had a pretty good time. Of course, by then the kids were aged 7 to 14, so it was a much more manageable group for my Dad. As the kids grow up, each recognizes the peculiarities of their grandpa -- he's narcissistic, somewhat manic, very intense, tells corny jokes and sometimes teases unkindly -- and there's some value in learning to see thru a facade to the person underneath.
Keep in mind, too, whether or not he's the kind of role model you want for your son. Sometimes people are better as a 'cautionary tale' role model, and opportunities arise to show this to our kids. Andy asked us just last week, 'why does Grandpa always say the same things to us?' referring to some silly teasing my Dad does every time the boys see him. It was a chance to explain that some people just don't 'get' how to talk to kids, and what might work better. I was pleased Andy finally noticed Dad's oddities and asked about it, so we could share our feelings about it.
Syl
---------------------------------
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Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*****
Given what you've told us, I certainly wouldn't provide any unsupervised access to your son. Tho your son loves his pawpaw, and you say that you and your Dad have moved to a relationship of some sort.
Growing up, I had that 70's childhool -- belts, switches, etc -- but no personal history of molestation you describe. I left home hating my Dad, and slowly established my own adult relationship with him. He lives in the same town as we do, so the boys see him maybe once or twice a month. My husband and I do want them to have some relationship with him, if only because we grew up without grandfathers. Also, with some years to grow he's softened from my childhood days, so it's been easier.
He offers a perspective and experiences to them, shares an interest in trains, and has done some cool things with them. He even travelled by car with 4 of the grandchildren (my oldest, my brother's kids and my sister's son) and they all had a pretty good time. Of course, by then the kids were aged 7 to 14, so it was a much more manageable group for my Dad. As the kids grow up, each recognizes the peculiarities of their grandpa -- he's narcissistic, somewhat manic, very intense, tells corny jokes and sometimes teases unkindly -- and there's some value in learning to see thru a facade to the person underneath.
Keep in mind, too, whether or not he's the kind of role model you want for your son. Sometimes people are better as a 'cautionary tale' role model, and opportunities arise to show this to our kids. Andy asked us just last week, 'why does Grandpa always say the same things to us?' referring to some silly teasing my Dad does every time the boys see him. It was a chance to explain that some people just don't 'get' how to talk to kids, and what might work better. I was pleased Andy finally noticed Dad's oddities and asked about it, so we could share our feelings about it.
Syl
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/25/04 12:07:05 AM, scubamama@... writes:
<< Recently, I have
addressed the fact that we use no punishments, giving info, etc.
instead. He stated that ds "would not learn right from wrong" and
that "he believed in using fear and intimidation". I AM QUOTING HIM.
I offered to share my parenting books with alternative tools.
Basically now my son loves "paw-paw".
<<Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to develop
this relationship?>>
I would.
If you make it clear that the visit lasts only as long as your son wants to
be there, and if he wants to bail he can call you, that would probably ease
your mind.
And tell your dad he used more than enough fear and intimidation on you, and
he's not to use it on your son. You can say it lightly but enforce it heavily.
And it's possible, too, that your son could just ride it like the rapids and
accept that pawpaw's grumpier than mom and has more rules than mom and still
think it's worth going.
Sandra
<< Recently, I have
addressed the fact that we use no punishments, giving info, etc.
instead. He stated that ds "would not learn right from wrong" and
that "he believed in using fear and intimidation". I AM QUOTING HIM.
I offered to share my parenting books with alternative tools.
Basically now my son loves "paw-paw".
<<Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to develop
this relationship?>>
I would.
If you make it clear that the visit lasts only as long as your son wants to
be there, and if he wants to bail he can call you, that would probably ease
your mind.
And tell your dad he used more than enough fear and intimidation on you, and
he's not to use it on your son. You can say it lightly but enforce it heavily.
And it's possible, too, that your son could just ride it like the rapids and
accept that pawpaw's grumpier than mom and has more rules than mom and still
think it's worth going.
Sandra
Jon and Rue Kream
>>I havefelt obligated to have him in our son's life on a monthly basis.
**Why do you feel obligated?
>>Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to developthis relationship?
**I wouldn't. My brother is a child molester. Under no circumstances would
I provide him an opportunity to develop a relationship with any child. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/25/04 8:52:31 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< You're asking our advice on your son developing a relationship with a known
pedophile? Someone who you yourself were unable to protect yourself from?
<<You have got to be kidding. >>
This seems way too harsh to me.
We can't keep our kids from every known or suspected danger, and if we ID a
few we think are dangerous, we might totally miss the ones who ARE.
Better to help the children be alert for discomfort and give them tools to
get out of the situation, I think.
A grandson's situation isn't like a daughter's situation. MUCH more unlike
than like. And the daughter didn't have anywhere to go, 30 years ago. The
grandson does. The daughter was intimidated. The grandson will have a "do not
intimidate me" force field put there by mom for now and himself as he grows
into it.
Sandra
<< You're asking our advice on your son developing a relationship with a known
pedophile? Someone who you yourself were unable to protect yourself from?
<<You have got to be kidding. >>
This seems way too harsh to me.
We can't keep our kids from every known or suspected danger, and if we ID a
few we think are dangerous, we might totally miss the ones who ARE.
Better to help the children be alert for discomfort and give them tools to
get out of the situation, I think.
A grandson's situation isn't like a daughter's situation. MUCH more unlike
than like. And the daughter didn't have anywhere to go, 30 years ago. The
grandson does. The daughter was intimidated. The grandson will have a "do not
intimidate me" force field put there by mom for now and himself as he grows
into it.
Sandra
AM Brown
> few we think are dangerous,With him it isn't 'think' it's know.
>to
> Better to help the children be alert for discomfort and give them tools
> get out of the situation, I think.I would agree but sexual abuse can be a bit more tricky. We are talking
about a 3 year old. If someone who is brought into the family as
supposedly trusting and loving begins to fondle him, he might believe it is
normal and sanctioned. He might change his mind when he is older but
unfortunately the damage is done. Granted, this could happen with anyone
you might bring into the child's life but when you know the person has the
history it seems awfully risky. I think an older child could make a more
informed decision and might choose to be in this man's life but at 3, I
don't know, I just can't agree.
>The grandson will have a "do notgrows
> intimidate me" force field put there by mom for now and himself as he
> into it.I think the force field is great for everyday but it seems a bit like
>
tossing a child into a gun fight and saying 'but he's wearing his bullet
proof vest'. I think having the 'force field' will certainly serve the
child but why put him in a situation where you know he will have to use it
- because at 3 years old I feel the mom is putting him in that situation.
Anna
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/25/04 11:03:12 AM, ambdkf@... writes:
<< If someone who is brought into the family as
supposedly trusting and loving begins to fondle him, he might believe it is
normal and sanctioned. >>
Why would he believe that if his parents don't do it, he's told it's not
okay, and he can call to come home at any time?
-=-I think the force field is great for everyday but it seems a bit like
tossing a child into a gun fight and saying 'but he's wearing his bullet
proof vest'. -=-
A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of full
blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with a little boy
thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,
altogether-nasty."
Sandra
<< If someone who is brought into the family as
supposedly trusting and loving begins to fondle him, he might believe it is
normal and sanctioned. >>
Why would he believe that if his parents don't do it, he's told it's not
okay, and he can call to come home at any time?
-=-I think the force field is great for everyday but it seems a bit like
tossing a child into a gun fight and saying 'but he's wearing his bullet
proof vest'. -=-
A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of full
blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with a little boy
thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,
altogether-nasty."
Sandra
eriksmama2001
>point of full
> A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the
> blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with alittle boy
> thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,
> altogether-nasty."I have realized that this is NOT an issue of sexuality, it is a
>
> Sandra
pattern of violation of my consent. If I knowingly condone or am
complicit in presenting this man as trustworthy, than I am
fraudulently representing him to my son. I realized that I can not
honestly invite him into my son's life without full disclosure to my
son as to why I am choosing not to have him in my life.
I have wrestled with the fears of confronting him and his possible
reactions. However, I have determined that the priority is that ---I--
- am choosing to no longer consent to knowingly have someone in my
life who does not relate to me on a consensual basis. (I also thought
these were "events", but they are actually a continued pattern of a
non-consensual relationship). Therefore, I can not continue to
present my father as someone I want in our lives.
My son will not be told the "nasty" details, but I will provide him
with healthier (i.e. consenual) alternatives to meet his desires for
adult companionship and "family" relations. This is now, later my son
may inquire for more explanation.
J. Stauffer
<<<<< This seems way too harsh to me.
called failure to protect and they can take your kids away from you for it.
Ask any therapist what they think the recidivism rate of pedophilia is and
they will state a number close to 100%.
Pedophiles aren't a possible danger. They are a very real danger. Allowing
your child to spend time with a pedophile is no different than allowing them
to play on a freeway. It isn't a matter of if the man will attempt
something, it is when.
<<<< Better to help the children be alert for discomfort and give them tools
to
encourage them to play on a freeway.
Julie S.---who used to work with pedophiles
>a
> We can't keep our kids from every known or suspected danger, and if we ID
> few we think are dangerous, we might totally miss the ones who ARE.>>>>>In the state of Texas, allowing a known pedophile access to your children is
called failure to protect and they can take your kids away from you for it.
Ask any therapist what they think the recidivism rate of pedophilia is and
they will state a number close to 100%.
Pedophiles aren't a possible danger. They are a very real danger. Allowing
your child to spend time with a pedophile is no different than allowing them
to play on a freeway. It isn't a matter of if the man will attempt
something, it is when.
<<<< Better to help the children be alert for discomfort and give them tools
to
> get out of the situation, I think. >>>>Of course. But even if my kids were adept at dodge ball, I still wouldn't
encourage them to play on a freeway.
Julie S.---who used to work with pedophiles
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] autonomous learning? vs. protecting
>
> In a message dated 5/25/04 8:52:31 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
>
> << You're asking our advice on your son developing a relationship with a
known
>
> pedophile? Someone who you yourself were unable to protect yourself from?
>
>
> <<You have got to be kidding. >>
>
> This seems way too harsh to me.
>
> We can't keep our kids from every known or suspected danger, and if we ID
a
> few we think are dangerous, we might totally miss the ones who ARE.
>
> Better to help the children be alert for discomfort and give them tools to
> get out of the situation, I think.
>
> A grandson's situation isn't like a daughter's situation. MUCH more
unlike
> than like. And the daughter didn't have anywhere to go, 30 years ago.
The
> grandson does. The daughter was intimidated. The grandson will have a
"do not
> intimidate me" force field put there by mom for now and himself as he
grows
> into it.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<<<<< Why would he believe that if his parents don't do it, he's told it's
not
<<<< A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of
full
Julie S.
not
> okay, and he can call to come home at any time?>>>>We are talking about a 3 year old.
<<<< A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of
full
> blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with a littleboy
> thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,I would say he is a DEFINITE candidate.
> altogether-nasty.">>>
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] autonomous learning? vs. protecting
>
> In a message dated 5/25/04 11:03:12 AM, ambdkf@... writes:
>
> << If someone who is brought into the family as
> supposedly trusting and loving begins to fondle him, he might believe it
is
> normal and sanctioned. >>
>
> Why would he believe that if his parents don't do it, he's told it's not
> okay, and he can call to come home at any time?
>
> -=-I think the force field is great for everyday but it seems a bit like
> tossing a child into a gun fight and saying 'but he's wearing his bullet
> proof vest'. -=-
>
> A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of
full
> blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with a little
boy
> thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,
> altogether-nasty."
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
J. Stauffer
<< A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of
is full blown molestation. Touching any child in any type of sexual manner
is full blown molestation and is a felony.
Julie S.
> fullgenital fondling, touching breasts while hugging, etc....that was described
> > blown molestation>>>
is full blown molestation. Touching any child in any type of sexual manner
is full blown molestation and is a felony.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "J. Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 3:06 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] autonomous learning? vs. protecting
> <<<<< Why would he believe that if his parents don't do it, he's told it's
> not
> > okay, and he can call to come home at any time?>>>>
>
> We are talking about a 3 year old.
>
> <<<< A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point
of
> full
> > blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with a
little
> boy
> > thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,
> > altogether-nasty.">>>
>
> I would say he is a DEFINITE candidate.
>
> Julie S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <SandraDodd@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 12:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] autonomous learning? vs. protecting
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 5/25/04 11:03:12 AM, ambdkf@... writes:
> >
> > << If someone who is brought into the family as
> > supposedly trusting and loving begins to fondle him, he might believe it
> is
> > normal and sanctioned. >>
> >
> > Why would he believe that if his parents don't do it, he's told it's not
> > okay, and he can call to come home at any time?
> >
> > -=-I think the force field is great for everyday but it seems a bit like
> > tossing a child into a gun fight and saying 'but he's wearing his bullet
> > proof vest'. -=-
> >
> > A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of
> full
> > blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with a
little
> boy
> > thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,
> > altogether-nasty."
> >
> > Sandra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/25/2004 12:42:16 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of full
blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with a little
boy
thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,
altogether-nasty."
~~~
Sandra, maybe you missed the part where she said he rubbed her genitals?
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of full
blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with a little
boy
thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,
altogether-nasty."
~~~
Sandra, maybe you missed the part where she said he rubbed her genitals?
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
badolbilz
>Why would he believe that if his parents don't do it, he's told it's notWhen my children are with my in-laws, who love them very much and have
>okay, and he can call to come home at any time?
>
>
>
>
no history of abuse, they are not allowed to call me if they want
to...even if I directly tell my mil to let them. She believes they'll
be bothering me and tells them they'll have to wait to talk to me when I
come to get them. Because of her attitude about this and other things,
the girls only go if they want to. A three year old, all alone with an
adult can only do what that adult will allow.
I wouldn't let my child alone with this man no matter how resolved my
relationship with him might be. It is your job to protect this little
child as best as you can. I guess you'll have to weigh the consequences
deep in your heart and decide what to do.
Good luck. And I'm sorry you're in such a frustrating situation. Heidi
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/25/04 2:13:47 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< genital fondling, touching breasts while hugging, etc....that was described
is full blown molestation. >>
You're right. I lightened it unfairly and accidentally.
Sandra
<< genital fondling, touching breasts while hugging, etc....that was described
is full blown molestation. >>
You're right. I lightened it unfairly and accidentally.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/25/04 3:28:26 PM, ynxn96@... writes:
<< Because of her attitude about this and other things,
the girls only go if they want to. >>
Only going if they want to seems safer in any case.
<<When my children are with my in-laws, who love them very much and have
no history of abuse, they are not allowed to call me if they want
to...even if I directly tell my mil to let them. She believes they'll
be bothering me and tells them they'll have to wait to talk to me when I
come to get them. >>
I can see that having happened once, but more than once? Why do they have to
ask to use the phone?
If my kids weren't brave enough to say "I'm calling my mom right now, or I'm
calling the police," I wouldn't let them stay anywhere. Conditions since
they were really young was they knew the phone number, whoever they were with
knew they could call anytime day or night (if we were going out, we would call
and check between dinner and movie or whatever to make sure they were okay for
another leg of it).
Without that, I wouldn't want to leave them anywhere.
Any adult who won't even let a child make a phone call to her own mother
shouldn't have children over, I think. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I think I'm just
pushy and I stand my ground and help my kids stand theirs.
Sandra
<< Because of her attitude about this and other things,
the girls only go if they want to. >>
Only going if they want to seems safer in any case.
<<When my children are with my in-laws, who love them very much and have
no history of abuse, they are not allowed to call me if they want
to...even if I directly tell my mil to let them. She believes they'll
be bothering me and tells them they'll have to wait to talk to me when I
come to get them. >>
I can see that having happened once, but more than once? Why do they have to
ask to use the phone?
If my kids weren't brave enough to say "I'm calling my mom right now, or I'm
calling the police," I wouldn't let them stay anywhere. Conditions since
they were really young was they knew the phone number, whoever they were with
knew they could call anytime day or night (if we were going out, we would call
and check between dinner and movie or whatever to make sure they were okay for
another leg of it).
Without that, I wouldn't want to leave them anywhere.
Any adult who won't even let a child make a phone call to her own mother
shouldn't have children over, I think. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I think I'm just
pushy and I stand my ground and help my kids stand theirs.
Sandra
kay alina
No. Personally, I would not.
Kay
Kay
----- Original Message -----
From: eriksmama2001
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 11:28 AM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] autonomous learning? vs. protecting
I have an only son who will be three years old next week. We are non-
coercive, attachment parenting, unschooling. Relative to his
relationship with my father, I am trying to be aware of how to
proceed in trusting ds to decide what he needs to learn and to
whether he chooses to associate with this man. As children, my sister
and I were punished with belts, switches, restrictions and shame.
(standard parenting in the 70's). We also had our body integrity
invaded by rare genital fondling, "hugging" with breasts touched,
and "kisses" on the mouth against our stated wishes. Our mother was
basically not aware of this and truly was unable to prevent these
invasions of our body space or hers. I recall this occurring from age
7ish to 15ish. My father was a young man who came from a very
dysfunctional family.
This occurred 25-35 years ago. My father and I maintained a
superficial and distant relationship from several states apart. I
never addressed these issues and resolved that this would never
happen in our relationship again because of my own self value and
right to my body integrity. Over the years he seems to have matured
and we developed a long distance relationship based upon a few things
in common as adults: gargening, travel, etc. Always, I have been
vigilant about my body around him. My husband and I have visited with
him and his new wife a couple times a year over the past ten years.
In 2001, my husband and I decided to have a child after 18 years of
marriage. BIG adjustments all around! :)!!!!
Subsequently, my father retired and moved within 30 miles of us. Now
he wants a family relationship with us visiting frequently. I have
felt obligated to have him in our son's life on a monthly basis.
Obviously, we have serious differences about parenting, but he has
only complained about access to his grandson. Recently, I have
addressed the fact that we use no punishments, giving info, etc.
instead. He stated that ds "would not learn right from wrong" and
that "he believed in using fear and intimidation". I AM QUOTING HIM.
I offered to share my parenting books with alternative tools.
Basically now my son loves "paw-paw".
Would you continue to provide opportunities for your child to develop
this relationship?
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kay alina
Child sexual abuse is far more prevalent than most people realize. At this point in time, statistics indicate that one in three girls is sexually abused and one out of six boys is sexually abused. Child sexual abuse is defined as any unwanted or coerced sexual contact or interaction between a child and an adult or another child. Incest, which often falls under the category of child sexual abuse, is sexual contact or interaction between family members who are not married or other people in positions of athority. Child sexual abuse can take many forms including indecent exposure, voyuerism, obscene phone calls, exposure to pornography, fondling and oral, vaginal or anal rape.
If You Are Being Abused | Myths and Facts | Adult Survivors of Sexual Abuse | Resources | Protecting our Children
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are a presently being sexually abused, I hope that you will consider telling someone you trust. Parents, teachers or guidance counselors are people who should be able to help you. If you tell someone and they do not believe you, I encourage you to keep on telling until you find someone who does. If you want to talk to someone about it, call RAINN at 1-800-656-HOPE or 1-800-4-ACHILD. The person who answers will not know where you are calling from and will not tell what you talk about and the phone call will not show up on your parent's phone bill. I know how scary it can feel to tell, but there are people who want to help you get out of this situation.
It is important to tell
a.. To stop the sexual abuse.
b.. You will begin to feel better and heal from it.
c.. To be safe again.
d.. Hopefully, it won't happen to others.
e.. The abuser will realize that his or her behavior is unacceptable and get help.
f.. It will give other children the courage to speak up.
g.. Most importantly, because you respect yourself and know your rights!
The Facts
One in three girls is sexually abused. One in six boys is sexually abused.
Offenders are not usually strangers to children. Approximately 70-80% of abusers are known to the child.
In cases presently reported, 90-97% of abusers are men.
In more than one forth of all cases, the molesters also abuse other children.
Female victims are more likely to report the abuse.
One half of victims are molested in their own home or in the home of the offender.
Heterosexual males present a greater risk to boys and girls than homosexual males.
An incestuous relationship is rarely a one time occurance but can range from a single event to years of continuous violation.
About 75% of children who are victims of child sexual abuse do not disclose at all during their childhood.
Source:CONNSACCS
Myths About Childhood Sexual Abuse
It doesn't happen that much.
It does. One out of three girls will be sexually abused by the time she is eighteen and the same is true for one out of six boys.
Abuse is most often commited by a stranger.
Most abuse is committed by someone the victim knows and trust. Studies of pedophiles show that they most often target children and work to build a relationship before beginning the abuse.
It doesn't happen in my neighborhood.
Yes it does.
Children make up stories about sexual abuse.
Statistics show that most reports of sexual abuse are true. Children rarely lie about abuse, nor do they usually have knowledge of sexuality which impairs their ability to lie about it.
Boys are rarely the victims of sexual abuse.
This is very false. One out of six boys is the victim of sexual abuse at some point in time during his childhood.
Boys who are sexually abused are gay.
No they aren't. Boys who are sexually abused are boys being victimised.
Sexual abuse always includes fondling.
Covert sexual abuse includes exposing a child to sexual material or sex acts.
If the child enjoyed it, it is not abuse.
I can't think of a worse excuse for abusing a child. Physical reactions are a sign that a body is functioning in a healthy way. Children usually feel dirty and degraded afterwards, which no one enjoys. Any sexual contact between an adult and a child is sexual abuse.
Some children seek out sexual relationships with adults.
All children seek affection from adults. If sexual attention is the only affection available to a child, she may settle for it. This in no way excuses the adult, who is responsible for maintaining a healthily affectionate relationship with a child.
Adult Survivors of Childhood Sexual Abuse
As an adult, a boyfriend asked me if I had ever been sexually abused, which opened a vault of memories of abuse at the hand of my babysitter's son. Survivors of childhood sexual abuse often begin the healing process in adulthood. Often, the abuse is too fresh and recalling it is more painful than the survivor can handle. We have many other reasons for not remembering the abuse. Forgetting it and wiping it from our consciousness is one of the most effective coping mechanisms available to a wounded child. Sometimes, the perpetrator may have told us that if we told our parents they would blame us or even become ill or die if they knew what a bad child they had. At other times, the abuser was the parent, which causes immense damage to a child's beliefs about trust and the security of the world that can last through adulthood. Forgetting is sometimes the only way to handle the implications of the resulting emotions. It is entirely normal to repress memories of sexual abuse. Often, it takes until adulthood to remember and name abuse.
No matter what happened or how long ago the abuse occurred, we all deserve the validation of our feelings. Grieving for what was taken as a child is painful, but necessary. If you are the adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I hope you can feel proud of beginning the healing process now. Although healing might leave you in a hard to face place, you are confronting it, which shows terrific strength. If you are the supporter of a survivor, please realize that your loved one needs support now no matter how long ago the abuse happened.
Resources
About Incest and Abuse An informative site, with chat and forums
Teena's Page A terrific resource
Sexual Abuse Recovery A personal page, with excellent links
Books
Beginning to Heal Ellen Bass and Laura Davis' book for survivors beginning the healing process, also an excellent resource for secondary survivors who want to understand what their loved ones are going through
The Courage to Heal Laura Davis' book guiding survivors of child sexual abuse to healing
The Courage to Heal: An excellent workbook written specifcially for female survivors of sexual abuse, but it contains ideas that are relevant for all of us
The Wounded Heart: A book offering hope for survivors. A companion workbook can also be bought, but I've not read it.
When Your Child Has Been Molested: A parent's guide to healing and recovery
Protecting our Children
Child sexual abuse is a huge problem, but it is preventable. If you are a parent looking to prevent the victimization of your child, I encourage you to read Protecting the Gift by Gavin deBecker, which presents revolutionary ideas about protecting children from danger, including sexual abuse. Please don't be afraid to talk to your children about sexual abuse. Having a conversation with him or her is your best line of defense!
Ideas include:
a.. Read a book with your child, like The Right Touch, a read-aloud written to help prevent sexual abuse
b.. Explain to your child that some people have "touching problems," to make it feel more safe.
c.. Talk to your children about "OK" and "not OK" touching. Don't use the words "good and bad" to define types of touch. Getting a shot can feel bad, while some touching related to sexual abuse can feel good. Ask your child to label the touching in several situations as "OK" or "not OK and discuss what to do about the latter.
d.. Together make a list of adults your child could tell about "not okay" touching.
e.. Don't make your child kiss or hug people she doesn't want to. If she feels that she cannot say to one person, she may not feel she can say no to the predator.
Source: Let's Talk About Taking Care of You, by Laurie Stauffer, Ph.D.
Email Me
Return to survivingtothriving.org
Copyright © 2002
If You Are Being Abused | Myths and Facts | Adult Survivors of Sexual Abuse | Resources | Protecting our Children
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are a presently being sexually abused, I hope that you will consider telling someone you trust. Parents, teachers or guidance counselors are people who should be able to help you. If you tell someone and they do not believe you, I encourage you to keep on telling until you find someone who does. If you want to talk to someone about it, call RAINN at 1-800-656-HOPE or 1-800-4-ACHILD. The person who answers will not know where you are calling from and will not tell what you talk about and the phone call will not show up on your parent's phone bill. I know how scary it can feel to tell, but there are people who want to help you get out of this situation.
It is important to tell
a.. To stop the sexual abuse.
b.. You will begin to feel better and heal from it.
c.. To be safe again.
d.. Hopefully, it won't happen to others.
e.. The abuser will realize that his or her behavior is unacceptable and get help.
f.. It will give other children the courage to speak up.
g.. Most importantly, because you respect yourself and know your rights!
The Facts
One in three girls is sexually abused. One in six boys is sexually abused.
Offenders are not usually strangers to children. Approximately 70-80% of abusers are known to the child.
In cases presently reported, 90-97% of abusers are men.
In more than one forth of all cases, the molesters also abuse other children.
Female victims are more likely to report the abuse.
One half of victims are molested in their own home or in the home of the offender.
Heterosexual males present a greater risk to boys and girls than homosexual males.
An incestuous relationship is rarely a one time occurance but can range from a single event to years of continuous violation.
About 75% of children who are victims of child sexual abuse do not disclose at all during their childhood.
Source:CONNSACCS
Myths About Childhood Sexual Abuse
It doesn't happen that much.
It does. One out of three girls will be sexually abused by the time she is eighteen and the same is true for one out of six boys.
Abuse is most often commited by a stranger.
Most abuse is committed by someone the victim knows and trust. Studies of pedophiles show that they most often target children and work to build a relationship before beginning the abuse.
It doesn't happen in my neighborhood.
Yes it does.
Children make up stories about sexual abuse.
Statistics show that most reports of sexual abuse are true. Children rarely lie about abuse, nor do they usually have knowledge of sexuality which impairs their ability to lie about it.
Boys are rarely the victims of sexual abuse.
This is very false. One out of six boys is the victim of sexual abuse at some point in time during his childhood.
Boys who are sexually abused are gay.
No they aren't. Boys who are sexually abused are boys being victimised.
Sexual abuse always includes fondling.
Covert sexual abuse includes exposing a child to sexual material or sex acts.
If the child enjoyed it, it is not abuse.
I can't think of a worse excuse for abusing a child. Physical reactions are a sign that a body is functioning in a healthy way. Children usually feel dirty and degraded afterwards, which no one enjoys. Any sexual contact between an adult and a child is sexual abuse.
Some children seek out sexual relationships with adults.
All children seek affection from adults. If sexual attention is the only affection available to a child, she may settle for it. This in no way excuses the adult, who is responsible for maintaining a healthily affectionate relationship with a child.
Adult Survivors of Childhood Sexual Abuse
As an adult, a boyfriend asked me if I had ever been sexually abused, which opened a vault of memories of abuse at the hand of my babysitter's son. Survivors of childhood sexual abuse often begin the healing process in adulthood. Often, the abuse is too fresh and recalling it is more painful than the survivor can handle. We have many other reasons for not remembering the abuse. Forgetting it and wiping it from our consciousness is one of the most effective coping mechanisms available to a wounded child. Sometimes, the perpetrator may have told us that if we told our parents they would blame us or even become ill or die if they knew what a bad child they had. At other times, the abuser was the parent, which causes immense damage to a child's beliefs about trust and the security of the world that can last through adulthood. Forgetting is sometimes the only way to handle the implications of the resulting emotions. It is entirely normal to repress memories of sexual abuse. Often, it takes until adulthood to remember and name abuse.
No matter what happened or how long ago the abuse occurred, we all deserve the validation of our feelings. Grieving for what was taken as a child is painful, but necessary. If you are the adult survivor of childhood sexual abuse, I hope you can feel proud of beginning the healing process now. Although healing might leave you in a hard to face place, you are confronting it, which shows terrific strength. If you are the supporter of a survivor, please realize that your loved one needs support now no matter how long ago the abuse happened.
Resources
About Incest and Abuse An informative site, with chat and forums
Teena's Page A terrific resource
Sexual Abuse Recovery A personal page, with excellent links
Books
Beginning to Heal Ellen Bass and Laura Davis' book for survivors beginning the healing process, also an excellent resource for secondary survivors who want to understand what their loved ones are going through
The Courage to Heal Laura Davis' book guiding survivors of child sexual abuse to healing
The Courage to Heal: An excellent workbook written specifcially for female survivors of sexual abuse, but it contains ideas that are relevant for all of us
The Wounded Heart: A book offering hope for survivors. A companion workbook can also be bought, but I've not read it.
When Your Child Has Been Molested: A parent's guide to healing and recovery
Protecting our Children
Child sexual abuse is a huge problem, but it is preventable. If you are a parent looking to prevent the victimization of your child, I encourage you to read Protecting the Gift by Gavin deBecker, which presents revolutionary ideas about protecting children from danger, including sexual abuse. Please don't be afraid to talk to your children about sexual abuse. Having a conversation with him or her is your best line of defense!
Ideas include:
a.. Read a book with your child, like The Right Touch, a read-aloud written to help prevent sexual abuse
b.. Explain to your child that some people have "touching problems," to make it feel more safe.
c.. Talk to your children about "OK" and "not OK" touching. Don't use the words "good and bad" to define types of touch. Getting a shot can feel bad, while some touching related to sexual abuse can feel good. Ask your child to label the touching in several situations as "OK" or "not OK and discuss what to do about the latter.
d.. Together make a list of adults your child could tell about "not okay" touching.
e.. Don't make your child kiss or hug people she doesn't want to. If she feels that she cannot say to one person, she may not feel she can say no to the predator.
Source: Let's Talk About Taking Care of You, by Laurie Stauffer, Ph.D.
Email Me
Return to survivingtothriving.org
Copyright © 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] autonomous learning? vs. protecting
In a message dated 5/25/04 11:03:12 AM, ambdkf@... writes:
<< If someone who is brought into the family as
supposedly trusting and loving begins to fondle him, he might believe it is
normal and sanctioned. >>
Why would he believe that if his parents don't do it, he's told it's not
okay, and he can call to come home at any time?
-=-I think the force field is great for everyday but it seems a bit like
tossing a child into a gun fight and saying 'but he's wearing his bullet
proof vest'. -=-
A man who hugged his daughter nastily but never pressed to the point of full
blown molestation is NOT necessarily a candidate for messing with a little boy
thirty years later. Sexuality isn't a homogenous thing, "once-nasty,
altogether-nasty."
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kay alina
I have wrestled with the fears of confronting him and his possible
reactions. However, I have determined that the priority is that ---I--
- am choosing to no longer consent to knowingly have someone in my
life who does not relate to me on a consensual basis. (I also thought
these were "events", but they are actually a continued pattern of a
non-consensual relationship). Therefore, I can not continue to
present my father as someone I want in our lives.
I applaud you for your decision.
Kay
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reactions. However, I have determined that the priority is that ---I--
- am choosing to no longer consent to knowingly have someone in my
life who does not relate to me on a consensual basis. (I also thought
these were "events", but they are actually a continued pattern of a
non-consensual relationship). Therefore, I can not continue to
present my father as someone I want in our lives.
I applaud you for your decision.
Kay
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]