[AlwaysLearning] alcohol
Nanci Kuykendall
Boy I'm with Sandra on this one. I grew up in an
alcoholic home as well, my dad not my mom. Of the
four kids raised in the home, 1 became an illegal drug
addict, one an alcoholic and the other 2 (myself
included) so adverse to drink that we don't touch a
drop ourselves.
I'd be even more worried about my older son, since his
genetic father is also an alcoholic and drug addict,
and he already has impulse control problems and a
tendancy to overdo things like sugar, to the detriment
of everyone around him.
I'm sure. As you said, a real fear, based on real
experiences.
Nanci K.
alcoholic home as well, my dad not my mom. Of the
four kids raised in the home, 1 became an illegal drug
addict, one an alcoholic and the other 2 (myself
included) so adverse to drink that we don't touch a
drop ourselves.
I'd be even more worried about my older son, since his
genetic father is also an alcoholic and drug addict,
and he already has impulse control problems and a
tendancy to overdo things like sugar, to the detriment
of everyone around him.
>That's a personal perspective based on years of pain.Yeah, and that's putting it very lightly and simply
I'm sure. As you said, a real fear, based on real
experiences.
Nanci K.
averyschmidt
> Boy I'm with Sandra on this one. I grew up in anBut, to relate this back to kids and alcohol freedom- were you and
> alcoholic home as well, my dad not my mom. Of the
> four kids raised in the home, 1 became an illegal drug
> addict, one an alcoholic and the other 2 (myself
> included) so adverse to drink that we don't touch a
> drop ourselves.
your siblings "allowed" to sip wine or beer with dinner? The
alcoholics I know were definitely *not* free to sip wine with dinner
in their childhood homes.
Could it have made any difference? I'm thinking that mabye, if they
had experience with it at a young age, and lots of input on how it
affected them, (not to mention growing up in an unschooling
atmosphere) what effect would it have on their future alcoholism (or
lack thereof)?
Not sure if this makes any sense as I'm thinking as I type.
Patti
Dana Matt
I'm thinking
related the seahorses to the porn--porn was only more
interesting if it was villified. I think being open
and free and honest about the problems can only be a
good thing ;)....and from my understanding of
adictions they tend to be ways to control one's life
when one is feeling powerless, and I hope that
unschooling kids are free and powerful!!!, and will be
less likely to fall into paths like that...
Dana
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> that mabye, if theyPatti, I agree with you....I think of it as Sandra
> had experience with it at a young age, and lots of
> input on how it
> affected them, (not to mention growing up in an
> unschooling
> atmosphere) what effect would it have on their
> future alcoholism (or
> lack thereof)?
> Not sure if this makes any sense as I'm thinking as
> I type.
>
> Patti
>
related the seahorses to the porn--porn was only more
interesting if it was villified. I think being open
and free and honest about the problems can only be a
good thing ;)....and from my understanding of
adictions they tend to be ways to control one's life
when one is feeling powerless, and I hope that
unschooling kids are free and powerful!!!, and will be
less likely to fall into paths like that...
Dana
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joylyn
averyschmidt wrote:
excess as teens and in college that they risked every thing for that
beer or joint. But I knew I could have a drink at home.
Joylyn
> > Boy I'm with Sandra on this one. I grew up in anI think this is definately an issue. I have friends who drank to such
> > alcoholic home as well, my dad not my mom. Of the
> > four kids raised in the home, 1 became an illegal drug
> > addict, one an alcoholic and the other 2 (myself
> > included) so adverse to drink that we don't touch a
> > drop ourselves.
>
> But, to relate this back to kids and alcohol freedom- were you and
> your siblings "allowed" to sip wine or beer with dinner? The
> alcoholics I know were definitely *not* free to sip wine with dinner
> in their childhood homes.
excess as teens and in college that they risked every thing for that
beer or joint. But I knew I could have a drink at home.
Joylyn
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Could it have made any difference? I'm thinking that mabye, if they
> had experience with it at a young age, and lots of input on how it
> affected them, (not to mention growing up in an unschooling
> atmosphere) what effect would it have on their future alcoholism (or
> lack thereof)?
> Not sure if this makes any sense as I'm thinking as I type.
>
> Patti
>
>
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In a message dated 4/23/2004 9:02:41 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
joylyn@... writes:
I think this is definately an issue. I have friends who drank to such
excess as teens and in college that they risked every thing for that
beer or joint. But I knew I could have a drink at home.
===========
Good point. Too many kids who are drinking sneaky will do it a lot because
they're being sneaky. In for a penny, in for a pound, kind of.
If a kid has a beer, as Kelly described Cameron, he can drink a little and
leave it there.
If he buys his own, or friends buy it (at kid-rates, sometimes extra much
because they have to bribe an adult to get it for them), the other kids would
press him to finish it and not "waste" it. Kids will press each other to drink
more. (Adults do it too. It's way irritating.)
I do think, though, that if someone has a strong case of alcoholism (if there
are greater and lesser cases) it doesn't matter how old he is when he starts,
that will be the situation from then on, he'll either be drinking or wishing
he were or wishing he werne't, but not living in the absence of alcohol.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn@... writes:
I think this is definately an issue. I have friends who drank to such
excess as teens and in college that they risked every thing for that
beer or joint. But I knew I could have a drink at home.
===========
Good point. Too many kids who are drinking sneaky will do it a lot because
they're being sneaky. In for a penny, in for a pound, kind of.
If a kid has a beer, as Kelly described Cameron, he can drink a little and
leave it there.
If he buys his own, or friends buy it (at kid-rates, sometimes extra much
because they have to bribe an adult to get it for them), the other kids would
press him to finish it and not "waste" it. Kids will press each other to drink
more. (Adults do it too. It's way irritating.)
I do think, though, that if someone has a strong case of alcoholism (if there
are greater and lesser cases) it doesn't matter how old he is when he starts,
that will be the situation from then on, he'll either be drinking or wishing
he were or wishing he werne't, but not living in the absence of alcohol.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
There are lots of factors, but I think the happiness one is the most important.
I also come from a family of addictive folks -- lots of smokers, many 'problem drinkers' some binge drinking. I spent about 5 years of my life either high or drunk (often both) as did my brother and sister. My first husband (Will's bio-dad) comes from some really ugly alcoholism and all sorts of other abuse issues, so I worried about Will. He grew up during the 15 or so years I spent not drinking at all (now I have an occasional glass of wine or a beer) and Gary doesn't drink at all.
We grew up being allowed to taste my Mom's drinks, and sip from Dad's beers. With us the big taboo was smoking, because my Mom had quit after my paternal grandad died of lung cancer (caused by 40yrs of roll your owns) so we got many a lecture from Dad about the dangers of smoking. The result? I smoked for 5 years, my brother for about the same time, my sister still smokes, tho she quits every few years only to start again. Mom started up again literally the day she moved out of the house to divorce Dad. She recognizes that addictions are about self-medicating pain and depression.
I had really hoped Will could skip the wasted time with drugs and alcohol. He'd been told the risks, both average and specific to his genetics. He knows he's the latest in a long history of addictive folks on all sides. About the great-grandfather (my ex's g'pa) who suicided after a life of alcoholism that included molesting his granddaughter; that my bro and sis both still use recreationally (at times, I've been pretty sure my bro is really just a high-functioning drunk).
From what I'm hearing, he's more like us than I wanted -- he has to learn this for himself. He's using but still getting to work, losing friends and running up debt. I'm sure a lot of it stems from the fact that he was public schooled, that I exerted more control and gave him less autonomy than I should have. Probably being the only child of a single Mom who was raised in a very dysfuctional home doesn't help. Mostly, I was just way too young and stupid to have a child at all. I wish I'd known about unschooling when he was young -- he's certainly much more at risk than the other boys genetically, and the environment I gave him early on was no help.
With the remaining boys? I'm not sure how we'll handle it just yet, but given my genetics and history, I'd be no more comfortable with illegal drugs than alcohol, even tho I agree pot should be legal. The real problem as I see it with minor illegal drugs is the drug policy dictates sometimes very major consequences. That can work both ways -- it can be very draconian and injurious to the casual user, or a good wake-up call for the budding addict. Addiction is addiction, be it cigarettes, booze or drugs, and it doesn't happen in the absence of pain because it always starts as escape and escalates to self-medication. My hope is that by raising free, happy unschooled and autonomous kids, I can help the others avoid it.
It's been a tough several days around here with news of Will from my sister who just visited. I had really hoped he would be able to hold it together for himself, but it seems his good run lasted about 8 mos and now he's losing his way. I know we all survived it, but this doesn't make it any easier to be his Mom right now.
Syl
***
But, to relate this back to kids and alcohol freedom- were you and
your siblings "allowed" to sip wine or beer with dinner? The
alcoholics I know were definitely *not* free to sip wine with dinner
in their childhood homes.
Could it have made any difference? I'm thinking that mabye, if they
had experience with it at a young age, and lots of input on how it
affected them, (not to mention growing up in an unschooling
atmosphere) what effect would it have on their future alcoholism (or
lack thereof)?
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I also come from a family of addictive folks -- lots of smokers, many 'problem drinkers' some binge drinking. I spent about 5 years of my life either high or drunk (often both) as did my brother and sister. My first husband (Will's bio-dad) comes from some really ugly alcoholism and all sorts of other abuse issues, so I worried about Will. He grew up during the 15 or so years I spent not drinking at all (now I have an occasional glass of wine or a beer) and Gary doesn't drink at all.
We grew up being allowed to taste my Mom's drinks, and sip from Dad's beers. With us the big taboo was smoking, because my Mom had quit after my paternal grandad died of lung cancer (caused by 40yrs of roll your owns) so we got many a lecture from Dad about the dangers of smoking. The result? I smoked for 5 years, my brother for about the same time, my sister still smokes, tho she quits every few years only to start again. Mom started up again literally the day she moved out of the house to divorce Dad. She recognizes that addictions are about self-medicating pain and depression.
I had really hoped Will could skip the wasted time with drugs and alcohol. He'd been told the risks, both average and specific to his genetics. He knows he's the latest in a long history of addictive folks on all sides. About the great-grandfather (my ex's g'pa) who suicided after a life of alcoholism that included molesting his granddaughter; that my bro and sis both still use recreationally (at times, I've been pretty sure my bro is really just a high-functioning drunk).
From what I'm hearing, he's more like us than I wanted -- he has to learn this for himself. He's using but still getting to work, losing friends and running up debt. I'm sure a lot of it stems from the fact that he was public schooled, that I exerted more control and gave him less autonomy than I should have. Probably being the only child of a single Mom who was raised in a very dysfuctional home doesn't help. Mostly, I was just way too young and stupid to have a child at all. I wish I'd known about unschooling when he was young -- he's certainly much more at risk than the other boys genetically, and the environment I gave him early on was no help.
With the remaining boys? I'm not sure how we'll handle it just yet, but given my genetics and history, I'd be no more comfortable with illegal drugs than alcohol, even tho I agree pot should be legal. The real problem as I see it with minor illegal drugs is the drug policy dictates sometimes very major consequences. That can work both ways -- it can be very draconian and injurious to the casual user, or a good wake-up call for the budding addict. Addiction is addiction, be it cigarettes, booze or drugs, and it doesn't happen in the absence of pain because it always starts as escape and escalates to self-medication. My hope is that by raising free, happy unschooled and autonomous kids, I can help the others avoid it.
It's been a tough several days around here with news of Will from my sister who just visited. I had really hoped he would be able to hold it together for himself, but it seems his good run lasted about 8 mos and now he's losing his way. I know we all survived it, but this doesn't make it any easier to be his Mom right now.
Syl
***
But, to relate this back to kids and alcohol freedom- were you and
your siblings "allowed" to sip wine or beer with dinner? The
alcoholics I know were definitely *not* free to sip wine with dinner
in their childhood homes.
Could it have made any difference? I'm thinking that mabye, if they
had experience with it at a young age, and lots of input on how it
affected them, (not to mention growing up in an unschooling
atmosphere) what effect would it have on their future alcoholism (or
lack thereof)?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
I think this is definately an issue. I have friends who drank to such
excess as teens and in college that they risked every thing for that
beer or joint. But I knew I could have a drink at home.
****
I could have gone home and had a drink anytime I wanted - that didn't make me any less damaged or pained. Home was such a mess that there wasn't enough alcohol or drugs to make it better, and the pain only followed me into adulthood. It only got better for me when I realized I was going to be someone's Mom and I needed to get my act together. Even that took several more years, and that was while clean and sober. It's not just about letting kids try liquor at home, it's about helping them to be happy and strong so that they won't feel the need to escape or self-medicate. IME, addiction isn't about control, it's about pain and lack and sadness.
Syl
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
excess as teens and in college that they risked every thing for that
beer or joint. But I knew I could have a drink at home.
****
I could have gone home and had a drink anytime I wanted - that didn't make me any less damaged or pained. Home was such a mess that there wasn't enough alcohol or drugs to make it better, and the pain only followed me into adulthood. It only got better for me when I realized I was going to be someone's Mom and I needed to get my act together. Even that took several more years, and that was while clean and sober. It's not just about letting kids try liquor at home, it's about helping them to be happy and strong so that they won't feel the need to escape or self-medicate. IME, addiction isn't about control, it's about pain and lack and sadness.
Syl
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In a message dated 4/24/04 1:59:14 PM, sylgt04@... writes:
<< She recognizes that addictions are about self-medicating pain and
depression. >>
<<Addiction is addiction, be it cigarettes, booze or drugs, and it doesn't
happen in the absence of pain because it always starts as escape and escalates
to self-medication.>>
Do you really think happy people won't ever succumb to addictions if they're
prone to have them?
Maybe there have never been enough happy people to be control-group enough to
see.
The past couple of hundred years haven't been shining examples of happiness,
and I'm not sure we could find a really happy population of the
genetically-susceptible that lives with alcohol but without addiction.
Sandra
<< She recognizes that addictions are about self-medicating pain and
depression. >>
<<Addiction is addiction, be it cigarettes, booze or drugs, and it doesn't
happen in the absence of pain because it always starts as escape and escalates
to self-medication.>>
Do you really think happy people won't ever succumb to addictions if they're
prone to have them?
Maybe there have never been enough happy people to be control-group enough to
see.
The past couple of hundred years haven't been shining examples of happiness,
and I'm not sure we could find a really happy population of the
genetically-susceptible that lives with alcohol but without addiction.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/24/04 2:00:46 PM, sylgt04@... writes:
<< IME, addiction isn't about control, it's about pain and lack and sadness.
The control doesn't (except for the "I can do what I want because I'm grown,
and this represents adult freedom" level of control).
Maybe the idea that there are physical differences and some people having
started smoking or drinking just won't easily be able to stop, but it seems to me
it could be as simple as that. What seems to be just a craving or
fascination and develops into a dependence.
Sandra
<< IME, addiction isn't about control, it's about pain and lack and sadness.
>>The lack seems likely.
The control doesn't (except for the "I can do what I want because I'm grown,
and this represents adult freedom" level of control).
Maybe the idea that there are physical differences and some people having
started smoking or drinking just won't easily be able to stop, but it seems to me
it could be as simple as that. What seems to be just a craving or
fascination and develops into a dependence.
Sandra
Sylvia Toyama
I'm not sure we could find a really happy population of the
genetically-susceptible that lives with alcohol but without addiction.
***
Well, after years of totally abstaining I find I can have the occasional glass of wine without needing another tomorrow -- something I couldn't have said about myself 19 yrs ago. I'm definitely happier today than I ever remember being. It's a combination of things -- unschooling myself, left the really bad church, and something about turning 40 really put me in a better place with myself.
I do find it hard to believe that truly content people -- not just surface happy, but genuinely fulfilled -- would fall into addiction. Seems to me they'd have too many reasons to be sober and aware.
Sylvia
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genetically-susceptible that lives with alcohol but without addiction.
***
Well, after years of totally abstaining I find I can have the occasional glass of wine without needing another tomorrow -- something I couldn't have said about myself 19 yrs ago. I'm definitely happier today than I ever remember being. It's a combination of things -- unschooling myself, left the really bad church, and something about turning 40 really put me in a better place with myself.
I do find it hard to believe that truly content people -- not just surface happy, but genuinely fulfilled -- would fall into addiction. Seems to me they'd have too many reasons to be sober and aware.
Sylvia
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Tia Leschke
>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Syl}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
>It's been a tough several days around here with news of Will from my
>sister who just visited. I had really hoped he would be able to hold it
>together for himself, but it seems his good run lasted about 8 mos and now
>he's losing his way. I know we all survived it, but this doesn't make it
>any easier to be his Mom right now.
It's so hard to watch them, isn't it? My older son spends his days smoking
tobacco and pot, and dumpster-diving and scavenging at the dump for cans
and bottles to sell. He's living in the same town, but he hasn't spoken to
me since last fall, when I didn't buy into the paranoia his father was
encouraging him in.
Tia
Sylvia Toyama
Thanks, Tia, for the hugs. Yes, it's tough to watch, even from afar. My sister told me that Will had said (in an argument) maybe he'd just return to Albuquerque. Of course, that's with no job. He's not asked me, but he can't stay here while he's using. I won't expose the younger ones to that.
Of course, my Mom is enabling him just like she's always enabled my brother on and off over the years. Mom told me she's been paying his car insurance even tho he hasn't paid her for 3 months. Yes, this is the same Mom who read me the riot act for not being harder on my kids! It is just so maddening.
Oh well, I can only hope he'll stay in North Carolina where he's not hanging around my house, and that all this will pass before he gets into real trouble. While it's nice to have sympathy, it's too bad you're in such a spot with your older son. May they both figure it out soon!
Sylvia
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Of course, my Mom is enabling him just like she's always enabled my brother on and off over the years. Mom told me she's been paying his car insurance even tho he hasn't paid her for 3 months. Yes, this is the same Mom who read me the riot act for not being harder on my kids! It is just so maddening.
Oh well, I can only hope he'll stay in North Carolina where he's not hanging around my house, and that all this will pass before he gets into real trouble. While it's nice to have sympathy, it's too bad you're in such a spot with your older son. May they both figure it out soon!
Sylvia
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Fetteroll
on 4/24/04 10:27 PM, Sylvia Toyama at sylgt04@... wrote:
in science :-)
It makes sense that kids won't learn unless you make them -- it's what most
will naturally extrapolate from seeing kids who are free from school on
summer vaction -- but that's not true!
Joyce
> I do find it hard to believe that truly content people -- not just surfaceIt makes sense, but is it true? A confident assertion is just the first step
> happy, but genuinely fulfilled -- would fall into addiction. Seems to me
> they'd have too many reasons to be sober and aware.
in science :-)
It makes sense that kids won't learn unless you make them -- it's what most
will naturally extrapolate from seeing kids who are free from school on
summer vaction -- but that's not true!
Joyce
Sylvia Toyama
> I do find it hard to believe that truly content people -- not just surface happy, but genuinely fulfilled -- would fall into addiction. Seems to me they'd have too many reasons to be sober and aware.Syl
It makes sense, but is it true? A confident assertion is just the first step in science :-)
It makes sense that kids won't learn unless you make them -- it's what most will naturally extrapolate from seeing kids who are free from school on summer vaction -- but that's not true!
Joyce
****
So what are you saying here? Yes, unschooling looks unlikely but works. Yes, it looks like happy people would avoid addiction, but really but addiction is inevitable even in happy people? That's really discouraging for those of us who are genetically predisposed to addiction. Altho I suppose it does absolve me of any fault in Will's current predicament -- after all, even if he'd been the happiest kid in America, he'd still be burning up all his income getting high.
Syl
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In a message dated 4/25/2004 5:38:54 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
sylgt04@... writes:
Yes, it looks like happy people would avoid addiction, but really but
addiction is inevitable even in happy people?
============
I think depressed people without the genetic whatever-it-is can live without
being addicts, and that those who are prone to addiction might be addicts even
if their lives are ideal. And in the grey area, depression probably doesn't
help. But there are other things that don't help. Peer pressure. Actions
taken just to prove independence or to spite relatives. Easy availability and
social/job "requirements" to drink.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sylgt04@... writes:
Yes, it looks like happy people would avoid addiction, but really but
addiction is inevitable even in happy people?
============
I think depressed people without the genetic whatever-it-is can live without
being addicts, and that those who are prone to addiction might be addicts even
if their lives are ideal. And in the grey area, depression probably doesn't
help. But there are other things that don't help. Peer pressure. Actions
taken just to prove independence or to spite relatives. Easy availability and
social/job "requirements" to drink.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 4/25/04 7:37 PM, Sylvia Toyama at sylgt04@... wrote:
never read anything about natural learning, state that unschooling works?
They could theorize but it would only be speculation.
We now can *state* unschooling works because there are hundreds of children
who have grown up and become happy well adjusted adults.
Before there was data to support the theory that unschooling works, families
operated on just firm conviction that unschooling had to be better than what
was available.
is we can't know.
What we can do is think about it from all sorts of angles. And talk about
it. And observe. And make extrapolations.
But we can't say without enough real life examples "No that can't be true
because it doesn't make sense," or "Yes, that must be true because it makes
sense."
-- to find the things that it sounds like it will give our children the best
life.
It doesn't make sense to give up and accept that a child is destined to be
an alcoholic. But it also doesn't make sense to assume that if a child
becomes an alcoholic that we did something wrong. We don't know enough about
genetics to say one way or the other.
So we just assume we can make a difference, do what we can and then hope for
the best.
Joyce
> So what are you saying here? Yes, unschooling looks unlikely but works.Could someone who has only experienced school and schooled children, who has
never read anything about natural learning, state that unschooling works?
They could theorize but it would only be speculation.
We now can *state* unschooling works because there are hundreds of children
who have grown up and become happy well adjusted adults.
Before there was data to support the theory that unschooling works, families
operated on just firm conviction that unschooling had to be better than what
was available.
> Yes,If we can't know one thing, it doesn't make the opposite true. All it means
> it looks like happy people would avoid addiction, but really but addiction is
> inevitable even in happy people?
is we can't know.
What we can do is think about it from all sorts of angles. And talk about
it. And observe. And make extrapolations.
But we can't say without enough real life examples "No that can't be true
because it doesn't make sense," or "Yes, that must be true because it makes
sense."
> That's really discouraging for those of us who are genetically predisposed toIf we can't know, then we seek -- read and think and talk and ask questions
> addiction.
-- to find the things that it sounds like it will give our children the best
life.
It doesn't make sense to give up and accept that a child is destined to be
an alcoholic. But it also doesn't make sense to assume that if a child
becomes an alcoholic that we did something wrong. We don't know enough about
genetics to say one way or the other.
So we just assume we can make a difference, do what we can and then hope for
the best.
Joyce
Nanci Kuykendall
I've been reading through this thread, as I don't get
to the computer every day, and gathering up the posts
that I wanted to comment on.
villifying it and making it taboo will help contribute
to personal understanding, an informed position from
which to make choices, and the lessening of the need
to experiment. This may in turn help someone with a
tendancy towards alcoholism to avoid it, particularly
given the opportunity to see what it feels like to
drink before they are old enough to have the freedom,
ability or desire to get it more often. I don't
really think it will make a difference in whether a
person is prone to be an alcoholic or addict or not.
If you are, you are. If you're gay, growing up in a
home full of loving acceptance for any sexual
preferances doesn't make you straight, just by way of
an example of what I mean. That doesn't mean I think
being gay is some detrimental disease like alcoholism,
just that I think there are genetic predispositions
that apply to both that are beyond environment or
experience.
There was plenty of alcohol available in our home and
we got champagne on new years well before ten, and
were offered wine with dinner later, and had beer and
all manner of hard liquor available in the house. But
really, on reflection over this thread, two of my
siblings have drug/alcohol problems and the other two
of us don't. What's the difference?
Well, the older two who have the problems with
substances are from my mom's first two marriages, and
although they have different fathers than myself and
my other brother, both of those fathers had similar
substance issues (pattern behavior on mom's part.) So
we all have roughly the same genetic markers for it,
following the idea of genetics playing a large part.
So I asked myself what else was different.
Given my mom's family's attitude towards substances,
(anathema) and the fact that they still can't admit
that her sister is an alcoholic, even given that she
is now a quadraplegic from one too many accidents
driving drunk, it's pretty likely that they were not
allowed any experimentation or easy access to alcohol.
Their dads split the scene almost before the kids
were old enough to remember, and they had a single mom
until she married my father when they were about 10
and 12.
The other two of us, on the other hand, grew up in the
home with an active alcoholic who is very casual about
alcohol; took great pride in how many guests he could
blindside with his very hard alcoholic punch drink at
holiday parties; ALWAYS offered drinks first to
company before food; had a fully stocked bar in the
house and wanted us to know how to mix drinks; took
alcohol backpacking; drank martinis in the car, even
while driving cross country, or to the grocery store,
whatever; and so on. Both of us don't drink a drop,
and don't keep any alcohol in our homes just because
we don't care for it, and we married people who don't
care for it, and have associations with it that are
not fun and pleasant, not because we think it is
itself evil. The smell of alcohol on someone's breath
still brings out a deep, gut level, fight or flight
pavlovian thing in me that I have to really work to
control.
On the other hand, we also got strenuous lectures and
dire threats regarding the many evils of smoking and
drugs (hypocritical I know) and neither of us ever had
a problem with either of those, even though I
occassionally tried clove cigarettes when I was a
teen, and did experiment with drgs too. But then, no
one in our families that we saw regularly smoked, and
I can only think of one relative whom we rarely saw
that did smoke, out of all the many relatives on both
sides. So maybe that is a different genetic
predisposition altogether, or maybe there was no "do
as I say not as I do" to rebel against in that case
for us.
to avoid going through the addiction stage at all, and
he's even still in denial about the alcoholism in the
family, at least out loud, I don't know what he thinks
to himself. Maybe for me it was just rampant fear
that kept me in line until I got into Alanon and
counseling and dealt with baggage. I was in
relationships with abusive addicts right up until I
married my husband, had my first son and started
Alanon, all in the same year. I know that for me, my
survival tactic from toddlerhood was being in
"control" of every aspect that I could control.
Being drunk or high is being out of control, and I
could not stomach that.
It's a good thing I started learning about unschooling
before my kids were born and knowing that was the way
we wanted to go, and that I was receptive to the idea,
having fought tooth and nail to escape the box as a
teen myself. I know letting go of illusions of
control is a big part of an unschooling lifestyle, and
I had a lot to let go of.
did not grow happy and lacking pain and sadness, yet
are not addicts? I can't think of a time in my
childhood when I didn't suffer from depression and
axiety and so forth. Did we miss the genetics
somehow, or is it something else? I know I have
craved drugs or alcohol at different times in my life
and it scared the hell out of me and I didn't fulfill
the craving. I know that despite the free access I
expreimented with drugs and alcohol as a teen and
hated feeling out of control. I know I have a
tendancy to eat too much sugar or be obsessive about
other things if I don't pay attention to my behavior.
Obviously there is no one size fits all answer to this
problem, but I do think that strong family
realtionships, strong foundations, non-villifying of
substances, access to information, open and honest
conversation, and some self control are all positively
contributing factors towards avoiding addiction. None
of it is a guarantee. We all have to walk our own
road and face our own demons, even our kids.
that those >who are prone to addiction might be
addicts even
Nanci K.
to the computer every day, and gathering up the posts
that I wanted to comment on.
> Boy I'm with Sandra on this one. I grew up in an(That was me)
> alcoholic home as well, my dad not my mom. Of the
> four kids raised in the home, 1 became an illegal
>drug addict, one an alcoholic and the other 2 (myself
> included) so adverse to drink that we don't touch a
> drop ourselves.
>But, to relate this back to kids and alcohol freedom-I'm sure that being "allowed" an experience without
>were you and your siblings "allowed" to sip wine or
>beer with dinner? The alcoholics I know were
>definitely *not* free to sip wine with dinner
>in their childhood homes.
>Could it have made any difference?
>Patti
villifying it and making it taboo will help contribute
to personal understanding, an informed position from
which to make choices, and the lessening of the need
to experiment. This may in turn help someone with a
tendancy towards alcoholism to avoid it, particularly
given the opportunity to see what it feels like to
drink before they are old enough to have the freedom,
ability or desire to get it more often. I don't
really think it will make a difference in whether a
person is prone to be an alcoholic or addict or not.
If you are, you are. If you're gay, growing up in a
home full of loving acceptance for any sexual
preferances doesn't make you straight, just by way of
an example of what I mean. That doesn't mean I think
being gay is some detrimental disease like alcoholism,
just that I think there are genetic predispositions
that apply to both that are beyond environment or
experience.
There was plenty of alcohol available in our home and
we got champagne on new years well before ten, and
were offered wine with dinner later, and had beer and
all manner of hard liquor available in the house. But
really, on reflection over this thread, two of my
siblings have drug/alcohol problems and the other two
of us don't. What's the difference?
Well, the older two who have the problems with
substances are from my mom's first two marriages, and
although they have different fathers than myself and
my other brother, both of those fathers had similar
substance issues (pattern behavior on mom's part.) So
we all have roughly the same genetic markers for it,
following the idea of genetics playing a large part.
So I asked myself what else was different.
Given my mom's family's attitude towards substances,
(anathema) and the fact that they still can't admit
that her sister is an alcoholic, even given that she
is now a quadraplegic from one too many accidents
driving drunk, it's pretty likely that they were not
allowed any experimentation or easy access to alcohol.
Their dads split the scene almost before the kids
were old enough to remember, and they had a single mom
until she married my father when they were about 10
and 12.
The other two of us, on the other hand, grew up in the
home with an active alcoholic who is very casual about
alcohol; took great pride in how many guests he could
blindside with his very hard alcoholic punch drink at
holiday parties; ALWAYS offered drinks first to
company before food; had a fully stocked bar in the
house and wanted us to know how to mix drinks; took
alcohol backpacking; drank martinis in the car, even
while driving cross country, or to the grocery store,
whatever; and so on. Both of us don't drink a drop,
and don't keep any alcohol in our homes just because
we don't care for it, and we married people who don't
care for it, and have associations with it that are
not fun and pleasant, not because we think it is
itself evil. The smell of alcohol on someone's breath
still brings out a deep, gut level, fight or flight
pavlovian thing in me that I have to really work to
control.
On the other hand, we also got strenuous lectures and
dire threats regarding the many evils of smoking and
drugs (hypocritical I know) and neither of us ever had
a problem with either of those, even though I
occassionally tried clove cigarettes when I was a
teen, and did experiment with drgs too. But then, no
one in our families that we saw regularly smoked, and
I can only think of one relative whom we rarely saw
that did smoke, out of all the many relatives on both
sides. So maybe that is a different genetic
predisposition altogether, or maybe there was no "do
as I say not as I do" to rebel against in that case
for us.
>I could have gone home and had a drink anytime IYes exactly. But somehow my brother and I were able
>wanted - that didn't make me any less damaged or
>pained. Home was such a mess that there wasn't
>enough alcohol or drugs to make it better, and the
>pain only followed me into adulthood.
>Syl
to avoid going through the addiction stage at all, and
he's even still in denial about the alcoholism in the
family, at least out loud, I don't know what he thinks
to himself. Maybe for me it was just rampant fear
that kept me in line until I got into Alanon and
counseling and dealt with baggage. I was in
relationships with abusive addicts right up until I
married my husband, had my first son and started
Alanon, all in the same year. I know that for me, my
survival tactic from toddlerhood was being in
"control" of every aspect that I could control.
Being drunk or high is being out of control, and I
could not stomach that.
It's a good thing I started learning about unschooling
before my kids were born and knowing that was the way
we wanted to go, and that I was receptive to the idea,
having fought tooth and nail to escape the box as a
teen myself. I know letting go of illusions of
control is a big part of an unschooling lifestyle, and
I had a lot to let go of.
>....... It's not just about letting kids try liquorSo what happened with my brother and I, who certianly
>at home, it's about helping them to be happy and
>strong so that they won't feel the need to escape or
>self-medicate. IME, addiction isn't about control,
>it's about pain and lack and sadness.
>Syl
did not grow happy and lacking pain and sadness, yet
are not addicts? I can't think of a time in my
childhood when I didn't suffer from depression and
axiety and so forth. Did we miss the genetics
somehow, or is it something else? I know I have
craved drugs or alcohol at different times in my life
and it scared the hell out of me and I didn't fulfill
the craving. I know that despite the free access I
expreimented with drugs and alcohol as a teen and
hated feeling out of control. I know I have a
tendancy to eat too much sugar or be obsessive about
other things if I don't pay attention to my behavior.
Obviously there is no one size fits all answer to this
problem, but I do think that strong family
realtionships, strong foundations, non-villifying of
substances, access to information, open and honest
conversation, and some self control are all positively
contributing factors towards avoiding addiction. None
of it is a guarantee. We all have to walk our own
road and face our own demons, even our kids.
>I think depressed people without the geneticwhatever->it-is can live without being addicts, and
that those >who are prone to addiction might be
addicts even
>if their lives are ideal. And in the grey area,"requirements" to drink.
>depression probably doesn't help. But there are
>other things that don't help. Peer pressure.
>Actions taken just to prove independence or to spite
>relatives. Easy availability and >social/job
>SandraYes I agree.
Nanci K.
Sylvia Toyama
But there are other things that don't help. Peer pressure. Actions taken just to prove independence or to spite relatives. Easy availability and social/job "requirements" to drink.
Sandra
***
Yeah, I can see where those could factor in. In thinking about this more last night, it occured to me this morning that, if not for Gary's allergy to cigarette smoke and my concern for the boys' health, I'd probably still be a smoker. I've always told myself it's about stress, but really there are days (especially on a cool crisp spring morning) when I crave a cigarette so strongly I can literally taste that first drag. I can also see if a person has a job where social drinking is expected and they are predisposed, addiction could happen.
When I drank and got high on a daily basis, it wasn't that I couldn't resist the taste of alcohol or pot, but that I consciously wanted to be high -- to escape into a place where everything was funny and I had no responsbilities. I guess, tho, that addiction is addiction physically and reasons are a whole other matter.
I don't know, just trying to find some way to protect the boys from it, I guess.
Syl
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Sandra
***
Yeah, I can see where those could factor in. In thinking about this more last night, it occured to me this morning that, if not for Gary's allergy to cigarette smoke and my concern for the boys' health, I'd probably still be a smoker. I've always told myself it's about stress, but really there are days (especially on a cool crisp spring morning) when I crave a cigarette so strongly I can literally taste that first drag. I can also see if a person has a job where social drinking is expected and they are predisposed, addiction could happen.
When I drank and got high on a daily basis, it wasn't that I couldn't resist the taste of alcohol or pot, but that I consciously wanted to be high -- to escape into a place where everything was funny and I had no responsbilities. I guess, tho, that addiction is addiction physically and reasons are a whole other matter.
I don't know, just trying to find some way to protect the boys from it, I guess.
Syl
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Sylvia Toyama
It doesn't make sense to give up and accept that a child is destined to be
an alcoholic. But it also doesn't make sense to assume that if a child
becomes an alcoholic that we did something wrong. We don't know enough about
genetics to say one way or the other.
So we just assume we can make a difference, do what we can and then hope for
the best.
Joyce
**
I see you point, and there's no way to know how much difference any of my parenting choices made. Well, except for the one where I left the ex (ds' bio-dad) who smacked him at 5 mos old -- I'm pretty sure that one saved our lives.
It's just that the drug and alcohol use is the one thing I most want our kids to avoid. I know how much it screwed up my life. I've seen how it still affects my brother, who seems to be doing better, but who took much longer to get it all together. We all went thru years lost to alcohol and drugs, but my sister and I straightened up much younger, because we became Moms. My brother didn't really have to (and the jury's still out on how clean he is) until after he'd lost his kids and wanted them back -- and as he saw how much damage his ex-wife was doing to them being almost constantly drunk.
Besides that, the laws and enforcement today are positively draconian compared to when I was Will's age. Today, even a small amount of drugs can land you in jail, and detection is so much more likely.
On some level, if my kids were girls I'd worry less, figuring that even if they strayed, they'd clean up for a pregnancy someday. Or maybe not. I just feel so helpless in this for him. I can't have him here if he asks to come home, and I can't fix his life for him. Obviously, I have more to figure out in this Mom thing!
Syl
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
an alcoholic. But it also doesn't make sense to assume that if a child
becomes an alcoholic that we did something wrong. We don't know enough about
genetics to say one way or the other.
So we just assume we can make a difference, do what we can and then hope for
the best.
Joyce
**
I see you point, and there's no way to know how much difference any of my parenting choices made. Well, except for the one where I left the ex (ds' bio-dad) who smacked him at 5 mos old -- I'm pretty sure that one saved our lives.
It's just that the drug and alcohol use is the one thing I most want our kids to avoid. I know how much it screwed up my life. I've seen how it still affects my brother, who seems to be doing better, but who took much longer to get it all together. We all went thru years lost to alcohol and drugs, but my sister and I straightened up much younger, because we became Moms. My brother didn't really have to (and the jury's still out on how clean he is) until after he'd lost his kids and wanted them back -- and as he saw how much damage his ex-wife was doing to them being almost constantly drunk.
Besides that, the laws and enforcement today are positively draconian compared to when I was Will's age. Today, even a small amount of drugs can land you in jail, and detection is so much more likely.
On some level, if my kids were girls I'd worry less, figuring that even if they strayed, they'd clean up for a pregnancy someday. Or maybe not. I just feel so helpless in this for him. I can't have him here if he asks to come home, and I can't fix his life for him. Obviously, I have more to figure out in this Mom thing!
Syl
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[email protected]
In a message dated 4/26/04 3:54:39 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< Before there was data to support the theory that unschooling works,
families
operated on just firm conviction that unschooling had to be better than what
was available. >>
Do you think it could really be firm conviction that it had to be better?
I think it was theory at first. Then belief.
Conviction (for me, anyway) comes after. That's another rearview mirror
item. <g>
But now that my kids are older, I DO have a convction that unschooling in its
ideal state is glorious.
One way people screw up unschooling is to provide for it physically, but to
keep a running dialog up that casts doubt over the whole thing. If parents
are going to talk about "it" (what they're doing, what they're thinking) they
should try not to. Spend the talking time talking with kids about what they're
interested in. Talk about "it" HERE, and at unschooling.com and places
'backstage' from the action of learning and living.
The kids don't need a theory or a belief. They just need to be living
peaceful lives, and a life lived under a haze of discussion of whether it's going to
work or not, whether they're watching too much TV, whether they're behind or
ahead or whatever is not a peaceful life.
I just veered away from the topic entirely, but that's okay. <g>
Sandra
<< Before there was data to support the theory that unschooling works,
families
operated on just firm conviction that unschooling had to be better than what
was available. >>
Do you think it could really be firm conviction that it had to be better?
I think it was theory at first. Then belief.
Conviction (for me, anyway) comes after. That's another rearview mirror
item. <g>
But now that my kids are older, I DO have a convction that unschooling in its
ideal state is glorious.
One way people screw up unschooling is to provide for it physically, but to
keep a running dialog up that casts doubt over the whole thing. If parents
are going to talk about "it" (what they're doing, what they're thinking) they
should try not to. Spend the talking time talking with kids about what they're
interested in. Talk about "it" HERE, and at unschooling.com and places
'backstage' from the action of learning and living.
The kids don't need a theory or a belief. They just need to be living
peaceful lives, and a life lived under a haze of discussion of whether it's going to
work or not, whether they're watching too much TV, whether they're behind or
ahead or whatever is not a peaceful life.
I just veered away from the topic entirely, but that's okay. <g>
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/26/04 3:54:39 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< It doesn't make sense to give up and accept that a child is destined to be
an alcoholic. But it also doesn't make sense to assume that if a child
becomes an alcoholic that we did something wrong. We don't know enough about
genetics to say one way or the other.
<<So we just assume we can make a difference, do what we can and then hope for
the best. >>
My kids have one alcoholic grandparent of four.
That's not bad!!
But my sister and I only had one alcoholic parent of four too, and she's an
alcoholic. I'm not. I'm physically more like my dad's mom, ane that side
doens't have alcoholism at all. My sister's a little more (not tons) like my
mom's side. But what traits go with what physical appearance? Maybe none.
Of my kids, Marty is most like his dad's side; no alcohol. Kirby is more
like me. Holly reminds me of two of my cousins, both bigtime drug addicts now.
Should I be afraid because Holly looks like Nadine and Nadine had four
children by four fathers by the time she was 25?
But Nadine (my younger cousin) was probably conceived, carried and born to a
drunken mom. She was neglected, ended up in a county orphanage (Lena Polk
Home, for Texans, in case it's still there; Tarrant county, I think), then with
my parents for a few years, where my mom started drinking heavily, and my
parents broke up and she lost her spot when she was fourteen and started being
shuttled among other relatives.
Holly is with both parents, neither of whom drinks, and she's not neglected.
My theory and belief is that this should be advantageous to her, but I don't
know for absolute certain, and so I've warned her (and the other kids too)
that the genetic and biological factors are unclear these days, might be clearer
someday, but they just need to be careful with alcohol.
I don't know what else to do, but I wouldn't fail to do at least that.
I don't think keeping them from alcohol is possible.
I don't think making rules against it is adviseable.
So far the boys have no interest. I'm relieved.
We've offered them tastes and they usually decline. I'm relieved.
I don't know enough to be complacent, though.
And I don't know enough to panic.
So I'm wary.
Sandra
<< It doesn't make sense to give up and accept that a child is destined to be
an alcoholic. But it also doesn't make sense to assume that if a child
becomes an alcoholic that we did something wrong. We don't know enough about
genetics to say one way or the other.
<<So we just assume we can make a difference, do what we can and then hope for
the best. >>
My kids have one alcoholic grandparent of four.
That's not bad!!
But my sister and I only had one alcoholic parent of four too, and she's an
alcoholic. I'm not. I'm physically more like my dad's mom, ane that side
doens't have alcoholism at all. My sister's a little more (not tons) like my
mom's side. But what traits go with what physical appearance? Maybe none.
Of my kids, Marty is most like his dad's side; no alcohol. Kirby is more
like me. Holly reminds me of two of my cousins, both bigtime drug addicts now.
Should I be afraid because Holly looks like Nadine and Nadine had four
children by four fathers by the time she was 25?
But Nadine (my younger cousin) was probably conceived, carried and born to a
drunken mom. She was neglected, ended up in a county orphanage (Lena Polk
Home, for Texans, in case it's still there; Tarrant county, I think), then with
my parents for a few years, where my mom started drinking heavily, and my
parents broke up and she lost her spot when she was fourteen and started being
shuttled among other relatives.
Holly is with both parents, neither of whom drinks, and she's not neglected.
My theory and belief is that this should be advantageous to her, but I don't
know for absolute certain, and so I've warned her (and the other kids too)
that the genetic and biological factors are unclear these days, might be clearer
someday, but they just need to be careful with alcohol.
I don't know what else to do, but I wouldn't fail to do at least that.
I don't think keeping them from alcohol is possible.
I don't think making rules against it is adviseable.
So far the boys have no interest. I'm relieved.
We've offered them tastes and they usually decline. I'm relieved.
I don't know enough to be complacent, though.
And I don't know enough to panic.
So I'm wary.
Sandra
[email protected]
-=-If you're gay, growing up in a
home full of loving acceptance for any sexual
preferances doesn't make you straight, just by way of
an example of what I mean. That doesn't mean I think
being gay is some detrimental disease like alcoholism,
just that I think there are genetic predispositions
that apply to both that are beyond environment or
experience.-=-
This is a good comparison.
And I don't think alcoholism is a disease, technically. IF it's genetic,
it's no more a disease than homosexuality.
So if alcoholism without alcohol (abstinence) "controls the disease," maybe
by disease they mean once the alcohol is introduced, the body responds as it
would in a diseased state. The disease model is WAY better than the
plain-old-sin model. But if it's an underlying condition... well I guess diabetes is
that kind of disease. You can inherit it.
I think of "disease" more as something that's communicable or can be cured.
Otherwise it's a condition or state of being.
Sandra
home full of loving acceptance for any sexual
preferances doesn't make you straight, just by way of
an example of what I mean. That doesn't mean I think
being gay is some detrimental disease like alcoholism,
just that I think there are genetic predispositions
that apply to both that are beyond environment or
experience.-=-
This is a good comparison.
And I don't think alcoholism is a disease, technically. IF it's genetic,
it's no more a disease than homosexuality.
So if alcoholism without alcohol (abstinence) "controls the disease," maybe
by disease they mean once the alcohol is introduced, the body responds as it
would in a diseased state. The disease model is WAY better than the
plain-old-sin model. But if it's an underlying condition... well I guess diabetes is
that kind of disease. You can inherit it.
I think of "disease" more as something that's communicable or can be cured.
Otherwise it's a condition or state of being.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/26/04 9:34:13 AM, sylgt04@... writes:
<< Besides that, the laws and enforcement today are positively draconian
compared to when I was Will's age. Today, even a small amount of drugs can land
you in jail, and detection is so much more likely. >>
Depends what state you're in.
There are still people in Texas who've been in prison since the 60's for
marijuana, I think.
Arizona was always rough. New Mexico through those same years was relatively
wimpy.
Cross-country drives were crazy gambles.
-=- I can't have him here if he asks to come home, and I can't fix his life
for him. -=-
The al-Anon advice on detachment might be something you should find online
and read, read, read before he gets to town and contacts you. If you want to
go to meetings for a bit, we could keep your boys if you need us to.
Adult Children of Alcholics meetings really changed me, which kept me from
passing some of the nonsense on. Children of acoholics can have behaviors and
habits that they can hurt their kids with even if they don't drink themselves.
Sandra
<< Besides that, the laws and enforcement today are positively draconian
compared to when I was Will's age. Today, even a small amount of drugs can land
you in jail, and detection is so much more likely. >>
Depends what state you're in.
There are still people in Texas who've been in prison since the 60's for
marijuana, I think.
Arizona was always rough. New Mexico through those same years was relatively
wimpy.
Cross-country drives were crazy gambles.
-=- I can't have him here if he asks to come home, and I can't fix his life
for him. -=-
The al-Anon advice on detachment might be something you should find online
and read, read, read before he gets to town and contacts you. If you want to
go to meetings for a bit, we could keep your boys if you need us to.
Adult Children of Alcholics meetings really changed me, which kept me from
passing some of the nonsense on. Children of acoholics can have behaviors and
habits that they can hurt their kids with even if they don't drink themselves.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/26/04 9:55:14 AM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< But Nadine (my younger cousin) was probably conceived, carried and born to
a
drunken mom. >>
Forgot to mention too:
While I had one alcoholic grandparent, Nadine had three.
As odds go, not so odd that she'd be an addict.
My half brother had two alcholic parents, and he's long and far gone into
drugs and alcohol. Speed and heroin and beer. He had the sad neglect and abuse
too.
Maybe it's just hard to find a child whose parents are addicts who doesn't
have an unhappy life full of the neediness that will such drugs and alcohol in
to fill it???
That's part of what I mean when I ask about how we can find a happy group to
look at.
If a child is adopted by clean-living, non-prejudiced, happy parents who
don't villify the alcohol, still the child knows his mother didn't or couldn't
keep him. That's got to be a sorrow even if the rest of life is like a party.
Sandra
<< But Nadine (my younger cousin) was probably conceived, carried and born to
a
drunken mom. >>
Forgot to mention too:
While I had one alcoholic grandparent, Nadine had three.
As odds go, not so odd that she'd be an addict.
My half brother had two alcholic parents, and he's long and far gone into
drugs and alcohol. Speed and heroin and beer. He had the sad neglect and abuse
too.
Maybe it's just hard to find a child whose parents are addicts who doesn't
have an unhappy life full of the neediness that will such drugs and alcohol in
to fill it???
That's part of what I mean when I ask about how we can find a happy group to
look at.
If a child is adopted by clean-living, non-prejudiced, happy parents who
don't villify the alcohol, still the child knows his mother didn't or couldn't
keep him. That's got to be a sorrow even if the rest of life is like a party.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/26/04 12:20:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
previous marriage. His father was an alcoholic. She left him when my older brother
was young, like 4-5, but he was still exposed to the alcoholic man. Anyway
she married another man, my father, and they had two children, myself and my
younger brother. My older brother was very loved and adopted by my father yet he
still slipped in alcoholism in his 30s. He is recovering and has been sober
for about 20 years now. My younger brother and I have never had a problem
with alcohol.
Not that other factors in our lives have made an impression on us. Just
thought it was interesting. Genetics? Environment? Can a rich environment make
up for an early short period of exposure to alcoholism? Not sure of the
answers, just interesting questions.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> If a child is adopted by clean-living, non-prejudiced, happy parents whoJust for some added thought. My mother had my older brother through a
> don't villify the alcohol, still the child knows his mother didn't or
> couldn't
> keep him. That's got to be a sorrow even if the rest of life is like a
> party.
>
>
previous marriage. His father was an alcoholic. She left him when my older brother
was young, like 4-5, but he was still exposed to the alcoholic man. Anyway
she married another man, my father, and they had two children, myself and my
younger brother. My older brother was very loved and adopted by my father yet he
still slipped in alcoholism in his 30s. He is recovering and has been sober
for about 20 years now. My younger brother and I have never had a problem
with alcohol.
Not that other factors in our lives have made an impression on us. Just
thought it was interesting. Genetics? Environment? Can a rich environment make
up for an early short period of exposure to alcoholism? Not sure of the
answers, just interesting questions.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
The al-Anon advice on detachment might be something you should find online and read, read, read before he gets to town and contacts you. If you want to go to meetings for a bit, we could keep your boys if you need us to.
*****
Thank you Sandra -- I'll check out al-Anon online. I tried them some 15 yrs ago, the first time our family talked about helping my brother stop using, but then somehow the crisis subsided, and I got busy with my own stuff.
I had known for a while before Will left home that he was using. I know he was using casually when he quit school, and still managed to get his GED, but was having real trouble motivating to work. He seemed stuck, and I was pretty sure that only added to his use. I think the real difference for him is that being at home didn't suck as badly for him as it did for me. I was very motivated to find a job and leave home for anywhere else -- even Los Alamos in the winter!
I was even pretty sure he was doing some minor sales in exchange for supply (since he had no funds) but I really hoped that maybe a change of scenery and friends would make a difference. After hearing that he's threatening to come back here, I have to wonder if I'm still willing to fly him out here for the inlaws' visit in October. I'm worried he may fly back and just never return, and I certainly don't want him as a houseguest while the grandparents are here if he can't quit using. I'm starting to re-think that invite we extended for him to visit.
I definitely need someone who has been where I am, and who is not my Mom to give me some ideas. Again, thanks for the offer. I'll remember to ask if I need it.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*****
Thank you Sandra -- I'll check out al-Anon online. I tried them some 15 yrs ago, the first time our family talked about helping my brother stop using, but then somehow the crisis subsided, and I got busy with my own stuff.
I had known for a while before Will left home that he was using. I know he was using casually when he quit school, and still managed to get his GED, but was having real trouble motivating to work. He seemed stuck, and I was pretty sure that only added to his use. I think the real difference for him is that being at home didn't suck as badly for him as it did for me. I was very motivated to find a job and leave home for anywhere else -- even Los Alamos in the winter!
I was even pretty sure he was doing some minor sales in exchange for supply (since he had no funds) but I really hoped that maybe a change of scenery and friends would make a difference. After hearing that he's threatening to come back here, I have to wonder if I'm still willing to fly him out here for the inlaws' visit in October. I'm worried he may fly back and just never return, and I certainly don't want him as a houseguest while the grandparents are here if he can't quit using. I'm starting to re-think that invite we extended for him to visit.
I definitely need someone who has been where I am, and who is not my Mom to give me some ideas. Again, thanks for the offer. I'll remember to ask if I need it.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
If a child is adopted by clean-living, non-prejudiced, happy parents who
don't villify the alcohol...**
I wanted to chop that sentence off and link it back to the porn discussion, because I think "villify" is an excellent word and an important concept.
Kids are going to be less messed up about drinking if they don't think drinking is shameful and feel shame if they have a drink. Kids are going to be less messed up about sex if they don't think sex is shameful. Kids are going to be less messed up about porn if they don't think porn is shameful.
It's very hard for a parent who has been traumatized about one of these topics to be calm and relaxedwhen discussing one of these "hot topics" with their kids. I know it must be a struggle.
Betsy
If a child is adopted by clean-living, non-prejudiced, happy parents who
don't villify the alcohol...**
I wanted to chop that sentence off and link it back to the porn discussion, because I think "villify" is an excellent word and an important concept.
Kids are going to be less messed up about drinking if they don't think drinking is shameful and feel shame if they have a drink. Kids are going to be less messed up about sex if they don't think sex is shameful. Kids are going to be less messed up about porn if they don't think porn is shameful.
It's very hard for a parent who has been traumatized about one of these topics to be calm and relaxedwhen discussing one of these "hot topics" with their kids. I know it must be a struggle.
Betsy
Fetteroll
on 4/26/04 11:38 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
writing about how children learn. Or people who just decided to not do
school because school was damaging so anything had to be better.
It's the same with anything people think there is more damage in doing than
not doing even if they don't know what to replace it with. School. Rat race.
Church. Desperate enough to just give up on that thing and do something,
anything else. They don't necessarily know what they'll get instead but are
convinced that turning their back on something is better than putting up
with it.
It's the spirit that drove the first wave of pioneers! They didn't know what
they were going towards, but they knew they didn't like what they were
leaving behind.
And their positive experiences provided something for the next wave to see
as proof that the choices aren't only the hell-like thing or hell itself.
No one needs to be a pioneer in unschooling anymore, though people still can
if they want to. We have people who already braved it out who went before us
whose kids are grown and doing well on their own. We might end up going
further than they did, because we already know that going as far as they did
is a proven thing. (Not something they necessarily knew.)
And come to think of it, I'm thinking of people like Anne Ohman and Mary
Gold (and others) who are traveling basically uncharted territory by using
respectful parenting/unschooling with kids with special needs. I don't think
either knows loads of -- if any -- grown children with similar special needs
who were raised in the ways they're raising their kids. They can see now
that they were right in their beliefs, but they had to go more on conviction
than data that applied to their situations at the beginning.
Joyce
> Do you think it could really be firm conviction that it had to be better?I was thinking further back to people who read John Holt when he was first
>
> I think it was theory at first. Then belief.
>
> Conviction (for me, anyway) comes after. That's another rearview mirror
> item. <g>
writing about how children learn. Or people who just decided to not do
school because school was damaging so anything had to be better.
It's the same with anything people think there is more damage in doing than
not doing even if they don't know what to replace it with. School. Rat race.
Church. Desperate enough to just give up on that thing and do something,
anything else. They don't necessarily know what they'll get instead but are
convinced that turning their back on something is better than putting up
with it.
It's the spirit that drove the first wave of pioneers! They didn't know what
they were going towards, but they knew they didn't like what they were
leaving behind.
And their positive experiences provided something for the next wave to see
as proof that the choices aren't only the hell-like thing or hell itself.
No one needs to be a pioneer in unschooling anymore, though people still can
if they want to. We have people who already braved it out who went before us
whose kids are grown and doing well on their own. We might end up going
further than they did, because we already know that going as far as they did
is a proven thing. (Not something they necessarily knew.)
And come to think of it, I'm thinking of people like Anne Ohman and Mary
Gold (and others) who are traveling basically uncharted territory by using
respectful parenting/unschooling with kids with special needs. I don't think
either knows loads of -- if any -- grown children with similar special needs
who were raised in the ways they're raising their kids. They can see now
that they were right in their beliefs, but they had to go more on conviction
than data that applied to their situations at the beginning.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/27/04 5:30:51 AM, fetteroll@... writes:
<< I was thinking further back to people who read John Holt when he was first
writing about how children learn. >>
Yes, he had a conviction based on experience and trial and error. I like
that his writings tell what he used to think, and what happened to change his
mind. I especially remember the bit about cursive writing. He told kids
cursive was faster, and then when he set out to prove that, some printers won the
race, so he changed his beliefs and teachings.
-=-It's the spirit that drove the first wave of pioneers! They didn't know
what
they were going towards, but they knew they didn't like what they were
leaving behind.
-=-And their positive experiences provided something for the next wave to see
as proof that the choices aren't only the hell-like thing or hell itself.-=-
Yeah, I can see that. They proved some people wrong, those who survived and
prospered. But those who died on the trail or got out there and were miserab
ly worse off than they had been back home seemed proof to the back-homers
(doh!) that they shouldn't have left the relatively-safe known evil.
-=-No one needs to be a pioneer in unschooling anymore, though people still
can
if they want to. We have people who already braved it out who went before us
whose kids are grown and doing well on their own. We might end up going
further than they did, because we already know that going as far as they did
is a proven thing. (Not something they necessarily knew.)-=-
Yes, it IS easier when you can see lit cabins along the trail sometimes.
-=-They can see now that they were right in their beliefs, but they had to go
more on conviction than data that applied to their situations at the
beginning.-=-
I still wonder whether it's conviction at that point, though, and not
unproven belief.
I suppose there's no morning when you wake up and theory has become belief
and then cocooned up a while and woken up full-winged conviction.
Sandra
<< I was thinking further back to people who read John Holt when he was first
writing about how children learn. >>
Yes, he had a conviction based on experience and trial and error. I like
that his writings tell what he used to think, and what happened to change his
mind. I especially remember the bit about cursive writing. He told kids
cursive was faster, and then when he set out to prove that, some printers won the
race, so he changed his beliefs and teachings.
-=-It's the spirit that drove the first wave of pioneers! They didn't know
what
they were going towards, but they knew they didn't like what they were
leaving behind.
-=-And their positive experiences provided something for the next wave to see
as proof that the choices aren't only the hell-like thing or hell itself.-=-
Yeah, I can see that. They proved some people wrong, those who survived and
prospered. But those who died on the trail or got out there and were miserab
ly worse off than they had been back home seemed proof to the back-homers
(doh!) that they shouldn't have left the relatively-safe known evil.
-=-No one needs to be a pioneer in unschooling anymore, though people still
can
if they want to. We have people who already braved it out who went before us
whose kids are grown and doing well on their own. We might end up going
further than they did, because we already know that going as far as they did
is a proven thing. (Not something they necessarily knew.)-=-
Yes, it IS easier when you can see lit cabins along the trail sometimes.
-=-They can see now that they were right in their beliefs, but they had to go
more on conviction than data that applied to their situations at the
beginning.-=-
I still wonder whether it's conviction at that point, though, and not
unproven belief.
I suppose there's no morning when you wake up and theory has become belief
and then cocooned up a while and woken up full-winged conviction.
Sandra
Lucy's web
It's nearly Beaujolais Nouveau time here in France (and in the rest of the world too, I assume!).
http://www.intowine.com/beaujolais2.html
Last year we had a friend staying with us who gave our children a sip of her wine, probably assuming that they would hate it. This particular type of wine is very sweet and fruity, and they loved it. My children are 11 and 9, and have had sips of other wines, and beers, and pronounced them "disgusting". However, I would like to buy some Beaujolais Nouveau again this year and my kids might well notice that it's the wine they like again!
I've looked on Sandra's site for thoughts about alcohol, and read about Holly and the pudding ;)
I've explained to my daughters that the law states they are not 'allowed' to drink alcohol until they are 16. However, in your experiences, do arbitrary 'laws of the land' type rules have the same effect as some of those imposed in the home: making something more valuable because it's 'forbidden'?
My husband and I both have some wine on the weekends. We don't get drunk. Apart from with the Beaujolais Nouveau we'd always assumed that letting the girls sip from our glass when they asked was the best thing to do, and that they would be highly unlikely to want to drink more than a sip.
I loved seeing the pictures of Holly and her beer sampling birthday celebrations on Facebook. Just wondering how you smooth transition from where we are at now with it, to where Holly is with it. Obviously the legal age for drinking is several years earlier here, than it is there.
Thanks for any thoughts on this.
Lucy
http://www.intowine.com/beaujolais2.html
Last year we had a friend staying with us who gave our children a sip of her wine, probably assuming that they would hate it. This particular type of wine is very sweet and fruity, and they loved it. My children are 11 and 9, and have had sips of other wines, and beers, and pronounced them "disgusting". However, I would like to buy some Beaujolais Nouveau again this year and my kids might well notice that it's the wine they like again!
I've looked on Sandra's site for thoughts about alcohol, and read about Holly and the pudding ;)
I've explained to my daughters that the law states they are not 'allowed' to drink alcohol until they are 16. However, in your experiences, do arbitrary 'laws of the land' type rules have the same effect as some of those imposed in the home: making something more valuable because it's 'forbidden'?
My husband and I both have some wine on the weekends. We don't get drunk. Apart from with the Beaujolais Nouveau we'd always assumed that letting the girls sip from our glass when they asked was the best thing to do, and that they would be highly unlikely to want to drink more than a sip.
I loved seeing the pictures of Holly and her beer sampling birthday celebrations on Facebook. Just wondering how you smooth transition from where we are at now with it, to where Holly is with it. Obviously the legal age for drinking is several years earlier here, than it is there.
Thanks for any thoughts on this.
Lucy