sex, alcohol, guns and swords (a little long)
Jennifer and Scott Lynch
Ahhh. . .I love the unschooling life! I have read with great interest the
emails regarding porn, alcohol and (in the slightly distant past) guns and
swords. I believe that those of us who choose to unschool do so because the
goals, priorities and methods of the Institution of School (capitalization
on purpose) do not match the goals, priorities and methods we wish for our
families. Every person is unique and every family is unique. School does
not recognize that. School works to erase that. No one has a definitive
answer that will work for all people in all situations. (I love when Sandra
asks for more info before giving advice!)
Sandra's family has a biological legacy of the disease of alcohol. Her
attitudes, concerns and advice about it will be colored through her life.
People should read what she has to say and rejoice that they have heard
another perspective, check if it works in their life, if it does, HURRAH!
Apply it to your question or problem. If it doesn't listen to someone else.
Same for porn/sex/computer wackiness. I think most of us would agree that
part of living an unschooling life is that freedom to choose is very
important. I would be shocked if I found out that, for the people on this
list, the only acceptable images of sex would be procreative sex between a
man and a woman. Come on! I don't want to start a debate about porn. I am
against the exploitation of anything against its will. But I am 100% for
creative, interesting, unique and arousing ideas about sex. For my family,
we have a healthy, stable, safe house and set of overall relationships. Why
would/should looking at porn be any different than looking at seahorses,
gaming tricks or electrical circuit instructions? Do it privately, ask
questions if you want, enjoy it if you want.
As for guns and swords. . . I was fascinated by the discussion a few months
ago regarding the purchase of guns and swords for children who requested
them. Until reading those posts I was very against the idea of even having
toy guns in the house. The posts from people who bought their kids guns and
knives and swords and taught them to use them really brought completely into
the ethos of unschooling. "Damn!" I said to myself "What is my problem?"
Somehow I had picked up the general idea that "guns are bad," "Having guns
will make a bad person." My daughter has no interest in guns or swords at
this point in her life. I am thrilled that my eyes were opened to a
different way of thinking about it all because if she ever wants to take up
archery or target shooting or sword fighting I will be ale to say, with a
truly open heart, "alright honey, let's get you what you need."
Every interaction (whether in person or online) is a chance to gather more
"data" for one's life. File the stuff that makes you uncomfortable for
later (you never know when you'll use it) and embrace the stuff that feels
right that you had never thought of.
I think this list totally rocks, I am so excited to read everything
everyday. I love the "day in the life" posts most of all because it makes
me so happy to know that we are not the only family out there enjoying our
life so very much. Keep all the great stuff coming everyone!
Jen
emails regarding porn, alcohol and (in the slightly distant past) guns and
swords. I believe that those of us who choose to unschool do so because the
goals, priorities and methods of the Institution of School (capitalization
on purpose) do not match the goals, priorities and methods we wish for our
families. Every person is unique and every family is unique. School does
not recognize that. School works to erase that. No one has a definitive
answer that will work for all people in all situations. (I love when Sandra
asks for more info before giving advice!)
Sandra's family has a biological legacy of the disease of alcohol. Her
attitudes, concerns and advice about it will be colored through her life.
People should read what she has to say and rejoice that they have heard
another perspective, check if it works in their life, if it does, HURRAH!
Apply it to your question or problem. If it doesn't listen to someone else.
Same for porn/sex/computer wackiness. I think most of us would agree that
part of living an unschooling life is that freedom to choose is very
important. I would be shocked if I found out that, for the people on this
list, the only acceptable images of sex would be procreative sex between a
man and a woman. Come on! I don't want to start a debate about porn. I am
against the exploitation of anything against its will. But I am 100% for
creative, interesting, unique and arousing ideas about sex. For my family,
we have a healthy, stable, safe house and set of overall relationships. Why
would/should looking at porn be any different than looking at seahorses,
gaming tricks or electrical circuit instructions? Do it privately, ask
questions if you want, enjoy it if you want.
As for guns and swords. . . I was fascinated by the discussion a few months
ago regarding the purchase of guns and swords for children who requested
them. Until reading those posts I was very against the idea of even having
toy guns in the house. The posts from people who bought their kids guns and
knives and swords and taught them to use them really brought completely into
the ethos of unschooling. "Damn!" I said to myself "What is my problem?"
Somehow I had picked up the general idea that "guns are bad," "Having guns
will make a bad person." My daughter has no interest in guns or swords at
this point in her life. I am thrilled that my eyes were opened to a
different way of thinking about it all because if she ever wants to take up
archery or target shooting or sword fighting I will be ale to say, with a
truly open heart, "alright honey, let's get you what you need."
Every interaction (whether in person or online) is a chance to gather more
"data" for one's life. File the stuff that makes you uncomfortable for
later (you never know when you'll use it) and embrace the stuff that feels
right that you had never thought of.
I think this list totally rocks, I am so excited to read everything
everyday. I love the "day in the life" posts most of all because it makes
me so happy to know that we are not the only family out there enjoying our
life so very much. Keep all the great stuff coming everyone!
Jen
Leslie
>Whyseahorses,
> would/should looking at porn be any different than looking at
> gaming tricks or electrical circuit instructions?what ages are your children? is this really the way it is at your
house? looking at porn is no different than looking at seahorses?
really? at what age did your children begin looking at porn?
i know i was sheltered during my upbringing but my goodness.
thanks, leslie
Dana Matt
--- Leslie <leslie@...> wrote:
anyway...
I *think* what she was saying, and what I say, is that
we don't separate learning into "bad" and "good"
learning....if my child had an interest in internet
porn, it wouldn't be any "worse" than if she had an
interest in anything else...it would just be an
interest. My kids are 11 and 6, and I don't think
they've seen any internet porn, although I do read
them the titles from emails I get and we all
laugh....My 11 yo has looked at sex toy sites, though,
and we have had long discussions about the pros and
cons of various vibrators....<g>
We were reading a book this morning together, called
"Six-Legged Sex--the erotic life of bugs" and we were
all laughing hysterically at the waterbugs who play
"music" on their penises to attract mates! Sex is
interesting and funny and there's no reason NOT to be
interested in it! :)
Dana
in Montana
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
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> >WhyI'm not the one who wrote this first, but I'll answser
> > would/should looking at porn be any different than
> looking at
> seahorses,
> > gaming tricks or electrical circuit instructions?
>
> what ages are your children? is this really the way
> it is at your
> house? looking at porn is no different than looking
> at seahorses?
> really? at what age did your children begin looking
> at porn?
> i know i was sheltered during my upbringing but my
> goodness.
> thanks, leslie
>
anyway...
I *think* what she was saying, and what I say, is that
we don't separate learning into "bad" and "good"
learning....if my child had an interest in internet
porn, it wouldn't be any "worse" than if she had an
interest in anything else...it would just be an
interest. My kids are 11 and 6, and I don't think
they've seen any internet porn, although I do read
them the titles from emails I get and we all
laugh....My 11 yo has looked at sex toy sites, though,
and we have had long discussions about the pros and
cons of various vibrators....<g>
We were reading a book this morning together, called
"Six-Legged Sex--the erotic life of bugs" and we were
all laughing hysterically at the waterbugs who play
"music" on their penises to attract mates! Sex is
interesting and funny and there's no reason NOT to be
interested in it! :)
Dana
in Montana
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2004 8:05:15 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
hoffmanwilson@... writes:
looking at porn is no different than looking
Seahorses are harder to find than porn.
There used to be several kinds of seahorses at the Albuquerque aquarium, but
the prettiest are gone. Died, I guess. Too far from home? But we did talk
about them fertilizing eggsand the males carrying them.
We've talking to our teenaged boys about NOT fertilizing eggs, and related
issues.
If one thing is just a thing and the other is a big horrible sinful shocking
thing, power is given to one and the other is devalued.
Maybe seahorses can be as exciting as porn, if porn isn't exciting.
(I'm not finding a better way to say it, but I know that the big deal about
porn is the shock value and taboo elements of it, and if parents can manage not
to treat it as a huge thing it won't be a huge thing.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hoffmanwilson@... writes:
looking at porn is no different than looking
> at seahorses?=========
Seahorses are harder to find than porn.
There used to be several kinds of seahorses at the Albuquerque aquarium, but
the prettiest are gone. Died, I guess. Too far from home? But we did talk
about them fertilizing eggsand the males carrying them.
We've talking to our teenaged boys about NOT fertilizing eggs, and related
issues.
If one thing is just a thing and the other is a big horrible sinful shocking
thing, power is given to one and the other is devalued.
Maybe seahorses can be as exciting as porn, if porn isn't exciting.
(I'm not finding a better way to say it, but I know that the big deal about
porn is the shock value and taboo elements of it, and if parents can manage not
to treat it as a huge thing it won't be a huge thing.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dana Matt
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
please don't quote me (hoffmanwilson) as the one
asking the question ;) I believe Leslie (?) asked the
question, and I just answered)
Dana
in Montana
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
> In a message dated 4/23/2004 8:05:15 PM Mountain((I agree with everything you said, Sandra....So
> Daylight Time,
> hoffmanwilson@... writes:
> looking at porn is no different than looking
> > at seahorses?
> =========
>
please don't quote me (hoffmanwilson) as the one
asking the question ;) I believe Leslie (?) asked the
question, and I just answered)
Dana
in Montana
> Seahorses are harder to find than porn.__________________________________
> There used to be several kinds of seahorses at the
> Albuquerque aquarium, but
> the prettiest are gone. Died, I guess. Too far from
> home? But we did talk
> about them fertilizing eggsand the males carrying
> them.
>
> We've talking to our teenaged boys about NOT
> fertilizing eggs, and related
> issues.
>
> If one thing is just a thing and the other is a big
> horrible sinful shocking
> thing, power is given to one and the other is
> devalued.
>
> Maybe seahorses can be as exciting as porn, if porn
> isn't exciting.
>
> (I'm not finding a better way to say it, but I know
> that the big deal about
> porn is the shock value and taboo elements of it,
> and if parents can manage not
> to treat it as a huge thing it won't be a huge
> thing.)
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> [email protected]
>
>
>
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2004 8:30:02 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
hoffmanwilson@... writes:
((I agree with everything you said, Sandra....So
please don't quote me (hoffmanwilson) as the one
asking the question ;) I believe Leslie (?) asked the
question, and I just answered)
--------------
Sorry about that.
When I cut and paste the e-mail just plugs in the info from the post it came
from.
Sometimes I notice it and delete that line, and sometimes I don't even think
about it. Sorry.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hoffmanwilson@... writes:
((I agree with everything you said, Sandra....So
please don't quote me (hoffmanwilson) as the one
asking the question ;) I believe Leslie (?) asked the
question, and I just answered)
--------------
Sorry about that.
When I cut and paste the e-mail just plugs in the info from the post it came
from.
Sometimes I notice it and delete that line, and sometimes I don't even think
about it. Sorry.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer and Scott Lynch
what ages are your children? is this really the way it is at your
house? looking at porn is no different than looking at seahorses?
really? at what age did your children begin looking at porn?
i know i was sheltered during my upbringing but my goodness.
thanks, leslie
My daughter is 4. She does not look at porn.
I knew something in that post would end up as a "hot potato" and it looks
like that is the one. I think Sandra and Dana's follow-up posts are helpful
in clarifying my point. Why is porn any "better" or "worse" than anything
else? What will happen if my child sees porn? What will happen if I forbid
porn? What is the overall principle I am trying to live by with regards to
access to information? What happens at the magical age of 18 that makes
seeing porn okay? Why is sexual activity, in all its myriad forms, so taboo?
Sex and the sexuality of children is a really tough issue for a lot of
people. There is a book called "My Mommy Laid an Egg" by Babette Cole. It
is a hilariously illustrated account of two parents who are trying to tell
their children how babies are made and are giving them all sorts of
ridiculous explanations (they're found under rocks, squeezed out of tubes
etc.) The children roll their eyes and proceed to draw in vivid detail the
real story of sexual intercourse and fertilization for their obviously
misinformed parents. There is a particularly hilarious page where the words
say "These are some ways Mommies and Daddies fit together." The
illustrations are of Mommies and Daddies engaged in intercourse hanging from
balloons, on a roller coaster etc. I took it to my daughter's gymnastics
class to share with two of the mothers who asked for suggestions of
children's books about "where babies come from" for their children who were
asking. All the moms laughed at the book and said it was great and all of
them said they wouldn't be able to read it to their kids, it would be too
embarrassing and it was too much information. I was stunned.
I appreciate your reactions and questions Leslie. To be honest this is all
theoretical at this time. If this list still exists years from now and if
my daughter ever starts looking at porn I will have to get back to you with
my reactions of the moment. All our societal taboos around sex and pleasure
(whether from sex or food or whatever) are really puzzling and infuriating
to me. That is a discussion for another place, I am happy to talk about it
off-list if you are really interested.
All of these are just my opinions. I like being able to express them!
Thanks Leslie, and Sandra and Dana!
Jen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
house? looking at porn is no different than looking at seahorses?
really? at what age did your children begin looking at porn?
i know i was sheltered during my upbringing but my goodness.
thanks, leslie
My daughter is 4. She does not look at porn.
I knew something in that post would end up as a "hot potato" and it looks
like that is the one. I think Sandra and Dana's follow-up posts are helpful
in clarifying my point. Why is porn any "better" or "worse" than anything
else? What will happen if my child sees porn? What will happen if I forbid
porn? What is the overall principle I am trying to live by with regards to
access to information? What happens at the magical age of 18 that makes
seeing porn okay? Why is sexual activity, in all its myriad forms, so taboo?
Sex and the sexuality of children is a really tough issue for a lot of
people. There is a book called "My Mommy Laid an Egg" by Babette Cole. It
is a hilariously illustrated account of two parents who are trying to tell
their children how babies are made and are giving them all sorts of
ridiculous explanations (they're found under rocks, squeezed out of tubes
etc.) The children roll their eyes and proceed to draw in vivid detail the
real story of sexual intercourse and fertilization for their obviously
misinformed parents. There is a particularly hilarious page where the words
say "These are some ways Mommies and Daddies fit together." The
illustrations are of Mommies and Daddies engaged in intercourse hanging from
balloons, on a roller coaster etc. I took it to my daughter's gymnastics
class to share with two of the mothers who asked for suggestions of
children's books about "where babies come from" for their children who were
asking. All the moms laughed at the book and said it was great and all of
them said they wouldn't be able to read it to their kids, it would be too
embarrassing and it was too much information. I was stunned.
I appreciate your reactions and questions Leslie. To be honest this is all
theoretical at this time. If this list still exists years from now and if
my daughter ever starts looking at porn I will have to get back to you with
my reactions of the moment. All our societal taboos around sex and pleasure
(whether from sex or food or whatever) are really puzzling and infuriating
to me. That is a discussion for another place, I am happy to talk about it
off-list if you are really interested.
All of these are just my opinions. I like being able to express them!
Thanks Leslie, and Sandra and Dana!
Jen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2004 9:15:37 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
j.slynch@... writes:
what ages are your children? is this really the way it is at your
house? looking at porn is no different than looking at seahorses?
really? at what age did your children begin looking at porn?
i know i was sheltered during my upbringing but my goodness.
thanks, leslie
My daughter is 4. She does not look at porn.
====================
When someone says they will let their child eat all the candy he wants, I
think some people picture a kid in cartoon mode, surrounded by empty candy
wrappers, all bloated after a four hour binge.
It's possible that when someone says "my kids don't have a bedtime" some
might think kids just stay up for days.
Those things don't happen.
I just asked Holly, who's watching the Simpsons next to me, whether she's
ever seen any porn. I read her the rest of this post. She said she never has.
I asked if she's ever even walked in and seen something on the computer that
the boys were looking at. No.
I asked her if she'd ever seen a Playboy or anything like that. No.
At somone else's house, maybe? No.
Would you like to? She kinda laughed, and said no.
(Keith has a small stack of stuff from the 70's up in a box in his closet. A
former roommate moved out and left them, and they've been in that box for
years.)
I know Marty and Kirby have seen some, but they seem pretty open and calm and
Kirby's room is very rarely locked.
Saying it would be okay with a parent if a child wanted to watch something is
not even remotely the same as the parent providing a child with something the
child had shown no interest in.
Holly knows she wouldn't be in trouble if she had seen porn. She has no
reason to lie, and no reason to seek it out.
Another question we get sometimes is whether people let their young children
see R movies with sex scenes. Few young kids will even look at romance
scenes, and if kissing starts they'll say EEYEW! Why would those kids want to see
sex? They don't even want to see candlelit dinners with hand holding. They
want to see dogs, and singing pickpockets and flying cars. But if the parents
were willing, the children made a choice, and they chose not to. If a child
HAD no choice, he might wonder or wish or want or feel deprived. And worse,
he might wait for that promised day when he can do the forbidden thing. And
after waiting five or ten years, y'think he'll just forego his glorified reward?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
j.slynch@... writes:
what ages are your children? is this really the way it is at your
house? looking at porn is no different than looking at seahorses?
really? at what age did your children begin looking at porn?
i know i was sheltered during my upbringing but my goodness.
thanks, leslie
My daughter is 4. She does not look at porn.
====================
When someone says they will let their child eat all the candy he wants, I
think some people picture a kid in cartoon mode, surrounded by empty candy
wrappers, all bloated after a four hour binge.
It's possible that when someone says "my kids don't have a bedtime" some
might think kids just stay up for days.
Those things don't happen.
I just asked Holly, who's watching the Simpsons next to me, whether she's
ever seen any porn. I read her the rest of this post. She said she never has.
I asked if she's ever even walked in and seen something on the computer that
the boys were looking at. No.
I asked her if she'd ever seen a Playboy or anything like that. No.
At somone else's house, maybe? No.
Would you like to? She kinda laughed, and said no.
(Keith has a small stack of stuff from the 70's up in a box in his closet. A
former roommate moved out and left them, and they've been in that box for
years.)
I know Marty and Kirby have seen some, but they seem pretty open and calm and
Kirby's room is very rarely locked.
Saying it would be okay with a parent if a child wanted to watch something is
not even remotely the same as the parent providing a child with something the
child had shown no interest in.
Holly knows she wouldn't be in trouble if she had seen porn. She has no
reason to lie, and no reason to seek it out.
Another question we get sometimes is whether people let their young children
see R movies with sex scenes. Few young kids will even look at romance
scenes, and if kissing starts they'll say EEYEW! Why would those kids want to see
sex? They don't even want to see candlelit dinners with hand holding. They
want to see dogs, and singing pickpockets and flying cars. But if the parents
were willing, the children made a choice, and they chose not to. If a child
HAD no choice, he might wonder or wish or want or feel deprived. And worse,
he might wait for that promised day when he can do the forbidden thing. And
after waiting five or ten years, y'think he'll just forego his glorified reward?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie
yes i was the one asking the question and i am not a bit ashamed of
that. i am extremely glad i did ask because sandra's answer did
make me think and made very good sense. i think sex and porn were
not handled properly with me as a child and so i honestly don't know
how to handle it with my child. i appreciate the responses. i
really look to sandra and the rest of this group for guidance when i
feel i need it because i have never ever found people that i feel i
relate to like i do everyone here as far as lifestyle, beliefs, etc.
and i only found you all a couple years ago. thank goodness too.
i'm sure i will have more questions in the future. leslie
--- In [email protected], Dana Matt
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
that. i am extremely glad i did ask because sandra's answer did
make me think and made very good sense. i think sex and porn were
not handled properly with me as a child and so i honestly don't know
how to handle it with my child. i appreciate the responses. i
really look to sandra and the rest of this group for guidance when i
feel i need it because i have never ever found people that i feel i
relate to like i do everyone here as far as lifestyle, beliefs, etc.
and i only found you all a couple years ago. thank goodness too.
i'm sure i will have more questions in the future. leslie
--- In [email protected], Dana Matt
<hoffmanwilson@y...> wrote:
>
> --- SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 4/23/2004 8:05:15 PM Mountain
> > Daylight Time,
> > hoffmanwilson@y... writes:
> > looking at porn is no different than looking
> > > at seahorses?
> > =========
> >
>
> ((I agree with everything you said, Sandra....So
> please don't quote me (hoffmanwilson) as the one
> asking the question ;) I believe Leslie (?) asked the
> question, and I just answered)
> Dana
> in Montana