kids and the internet
averyschmidt
I'm wondering what all of you think about pre-teens and teens having
private internet access (with no parental supervision)- like late at
night when parents are sleeping or in a private bedroom. I'm
terrified of what's out there online and what my 11yo may come
across. I'm trying to sort out irrational fears from rational ones,
and would appreciate hearing some of your opinions.
Patti
private internet access (with no parental supervision)- like late at
night when parents are sleeping or in a private bedroom. I'm
terrified of what's out there online and what my 11yo may come
across. I'm trying to sort out irrational fears from rational ones,
and would appreciate hearing some of your opinions.
Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/04 10:55:09 AM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:
<< I'm wondering what all of you think about pre-teens and teens having
private internet access (with no parental supervision)- like late at
night when parents are sleeping or in a private bedroom. I'm
terrified of what's out there online and what my 11yo may come
across. I'm trying to sort out irrational fears from rational ones,
and would appreciate hearing some of your opinions. >>
I have a question for you.
If one came across something scary (I don't know what... a photo of someone
having sex with a donkey?--example I read about in an article last week) and
if they came to wake you up, what would you do?
Would the child be in trouble?
Would you take away computer access after that?
Without that answer I can't procede with my sterling advice. <bwg>
Sandra
<< I'm wondering what all of you think about pre-teens and teens having
private internet access (with no parental supervision)- like late at
night when parents are sleeping or in a private bedroom. I'm
terrified of what's out there online and what my 11yo may come
across. I'm trying to sort out irrational fears from rational ones,
and would appreciate hearing some of your opinions. >>
I have a question for you.
If one came across something scary (I don't know what... a photo of someone
having sex with a donkey?--example I read about in an article last week) and
if they came to wake you up, what would you do?
Would the child be in trouble?
Would you take away computer access after that?
Without that answer I can't procede with my sterling advice. <bwg>
Sandra
C Johnson
My two children are 7 and 4 and have all the access they can do by themselves right now unsupervised. I would just make sure your child knows not to give their name or location out to anyone and let them go. When they get older and stay up later than me on the computer I'm pretty sure they will ask me questions about anything weird they might come across. I hope this helps you a little.
Chrissie
averyschmidt <patti.schmidt2@...> wrote:
I'm wondering what all of you think about pre-teens and teens having
private internet access (with no parental supervision)- like late at
night when parents are sleeping or in a private bedroom. I'm
terrified of what's out there online and what my 11yo may come
across. I'm trying to sort out irrational fears from rational ones,
and would appreciate hearing some of your opinions.
Patti
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Chrissie
averyschmidt <patti.schmidt2@...> wrote:
I'm wondering what all of you think about pre-teens and teens having
private internet access (with no parental supervision)- like late at
night when parents are sleeping or in a private bedroom. I'm
terrified of what's out there online and what my 11yo may come
across. I'm trying to sort out irrational fears from rational ones,
and would appreciate hearing some of your opinions.
Patti
---------------------------------
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averyschmidt
> I have a question for you.of someone
> If one came across something scary (I don't know what... a photo
> having sex with a donkey?--example I read about in an article lastweek) and
> if they came to wake you up, what would you do?Talk about it, I guess? Seeing an image like that would really
bother me, and I'm an adult, so I can't help but wonder how it would
affect a young child and their future sexuality to see such things
either inadvertently or not.
Here's a real life example I can give you.
My youngest brother (my children's uncle) has many tattoos. My 9yo
is fascinated with this, and after a recent visit with my brother he
wanted me to help him find some tattoo websites so he could look at
different unique tattoos out there. As I was helping him I saw that
it was easily a segue into some pornographic body piercing stuff
complete with sadistic images. That's how the internet goes with
one thing leading to another, oftentimes accidentally. In that
sense the internet manages to strew some of the most perverse things
out there for our children.
People magazine had an article recently about children and internet
pornography, and apparently there are people who actively lure
children to pornographic websites by consciously misspelling
commonly searched names- for example bobthebiulder.com.
So no, they wouldn't be in trouble. But as of right now, I do like
to be present when one of them is online (remember my kids are under
11). When I was present and involved with the tattoo searching I
could steer him away from questionable sites. So far my presence
hasn't been much of an issue since we live in a little house, but my
11yo is really wanting internet access in his own bedroom of our new
home.
Patti
Leslie
what about the images disturbing or affecting the child? wouldn't
this be a bad thing? my child would never be 'in trouble' but isn't
this something we would want to prevent if at all possible? i am
trying to make my own decisions about my 10 y.o. and things like
this (pg13 movies, MTV, pop-ups, etc) and this seemed like a good
place to jump in. i am not agreeing or disagreeing. I am asking
you to go farther than just 'will the child be in trouble'. i
always look forward to your sterling advice. this time will be no
exception. thanks, leslie
this be a bad thing? my child would never be 'in trouble' but isn't
this something we would want to prevent if at all possible? i am
trying to make my own decisions about my 10 y.o. and things like
this (pg13 movies, MTV, pop-ups, etc) and this seemed like a good
place to jump in. i am not agreeing or disagreeing. I am asking
you to go farther than just 'will the child be in trouble'. i
always look forward to your sterling advice. this time will be no
exception. thanks, leslie
> Would the child be in trouble?
> Would you take away computer access after that?
>
>
> Without that answer I can't procede with my sterling advice. <bwg>
>
> Sandra
Leslie
this is how i am too. i am VERY worried about my 10 y.o. daughter
accidentally coming across pornography. i have her email setup to
only allow email from people i decide is safe. when she wants to
get email from a new source, she has to tell me to add it to her
safe list. i set her google to the most child-friendly setting and
i also asked her not to steer too far away from her regular sites
without me. i don't want to go overboard though and i am having a
tough time, which is why i jumped into this discussion. i have
always wondered what sandra thought about things like this. i have
mixed emotions because i am not really conservative and i have
always been against censorship, but when it comes to my child i seem
to become a whole different person. leslie
accidentally coming across pornography. i have her email setup to
only allow email from people i decide is safe. when she wants to
get email from a new source, she has to tell me to add it to her
safe list. i set her google to the most child-friendly setting and
i also asked her not to steer too far away from her regular sites
without me. i don't want to go overboard though and i am having a
tough time, which is why i jumped into this discussion. i have
always wondered what sandra thought about things like this. i have
mixed emotions because i am not really conservative and i have
always been against censorship, but when it comes to my child i seem
to become a whole different person. leslie
> 11). When I was present and involved with the tattoo searching Imy
> could steer him away from questionable sites. So far my presence
> hasn't been much of an issue since we live in a little house, but
> 11yo is really wanting internet access in his own bedroom of ournew
> home.
>
> Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/04 12:18:50 PM, leslie@... writes:
<< I am asking
you to go farther than just 'will the child be in trouble'. >>
Without knowing whether a mother would be angry or rejecting, I can't go
farther.
Once I know, I know which branch of the advice tree to go on.
Sandra
<< I am asking
you to go farther than just 'will the child be in trouble'. >>
Without knowing whether a mother would be angry or rejecting, I can't go
farther.
Once I know, I know which branch of the advice tree to go on.
Sandra
C Johnson
My 4 yro son accidentally stumbled upon a pornographic site. He was using the pull down menu and someone at my house the night before had been looking at some. I just pulled it back down and got him where he was trying to go and never said a word. He didn't think anything of it. He was just trying to get to nickjr.com.
Chrissie
Leslie <leslie@...> wrote:
what about the images disturbing or affecting the child? wouldn't
this be a bad thing? my child would never be 'in trouble' but isn't
this something we would want to prevent if at all possible? i am
trying to make my own decisions about my 10 y.o. and things like
this (pg13 movies, MTV, pop-ups, etc) and this seemed like a good
place to jump in. i am not agreeing or disagreeing. I am asking
you to go farther than just 'will the child be in trouble'. i
always look forward to your sterling advice. this time will be no
exception. thanks, leslie
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Chrissie
Leslie <leslie@...> wrote:
what about the images disturbing or affecting the child? wouldn't
this be a bad thing? my child would never be 'in trouble' but isn't
this something we would want to prevent if at all possible? i am
trying to make my own decisions about my 10 y.o. and things like
this (pg13 movies, MTV, pop-ups, etc) and this seemed like a good
place to jump in. i am not agreeing or disagreeing. I am asking
you to go farther than just 'will the child be in trouble'. i
always look forward to your sterling advice. this time will be no
exception. thanks, leslie
> Would the child be in trouble?---------------------------------
> Would you take away computer access after that?
>
>
> Without that answer I can't procede with my sterling advice. <bwg>
>
> Sandra
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In a message dated 4/23/04 12:42:49 PM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:
<< People magazine had an article recently about children and internet
pornography, and apparently there are people who actively lure
children to pornographic websites by consciously misspelling
commonly searched names- for example bobthebiulder.com. >>
I read that. But the solution of the family being quoted near the end was to
put the computer in the kitchen (or whichever public room, I forget) so the
kid was next to his mom.
This is the electronic version of making boys sleep with their hands outside
the covers.
People used to tuck their kids in, literally---stick the covers under the
sides of the bed. And boys were made to have their hands outside the covers in
lots of families so they couldn't touch themselves at night.
-=-So no, they wouldn't be in trouble. -=-
They need to know that, I think.
If a child is afraid to tell a mom that he found something weird or creepy,
he will keep it to himself. He will be alone with his weird and creepy
discovery and will have to try to make sense of it in some kid-way. That's weirder
and creepier to me than any porn.
Lots of families will reject a child nineteen ways if he admits to having
seen porn. That teaches him to lie. And once he's doing it secretly, why stop
at what's not too creepy? If he can't talk to his mom about it, who WILL he
talk to?
So I think being casual about it is safer and better than electrifying it
with all kinds of danger and import.
I was opening e-mail one day and opened one that goes around, same text,
invitation to a website. They put different subject lines on it, though, and I
can't just delete e-mail I don't recognize, because very often it's requests
for help from homeschoolers and they put subject lines exactly like this:
Hi
or
My friend said to write to you.
So rather than throw homeschool info requests away, I open stuff that's
usually crap and sometimes homeschooling.
So I opened this one and it started off "Hi, my name's Tiffany. My friend
said you were really cool and..."
A couple of my kids were in the room. I said right out loud, "WHAT!? I need
to write back to her and say 'Your name isn't Tiffany, it's JENNIFER. You've
written to me lots of times before, and your name is NOT Tiffany.'"
They just laughed because they've gotten those e-mails too. I don't think
they've looked at the site.
Kirby and Marty have looked at some stuff that they've gotten to through
particular interests. Fan art stuff, some other stuff. I'd rather know and
advise them on not thinking that's normal sex, and they laugh and say "we know"
than to have them being sneaky and me being mean or judgmental or anything less
than matter-of-fact.
Matter of fact, there's been porn of one sort or another around forever.
The humorous bit about "do you want to come up and see my etchings?" is a
reference to that.
When we signed Holly online and were honest about her age, she couldn't even
access her own webpage. We took the age restriction off, and she goes to My
Little Pony sites, Neopets, movie schedules, but mostly she plays solitaire
and uses instant message.
Sandra
<< People magazine had an article recently about children and internet
pornography, and apparently there are people who actively lure
children to pornographic websites by consciously misspelling
commonly searched names- for example bobthebiulder.com. >>
I read that. But the solution of the family being quoted near the end was to
put the computer in the kitchen (or whichever public room, I forget) so the
kid was next to his mom.
This is the electronic version of making boys sleep with their hands outside
the covers.
People used to tuck their kids in, literally---stick the covers under the
sides of the bed. And boys were made to have their hands outside the covers in
lots of families so they couldn't touch themselves at night.
-=-So no, they wouldn't be in trouble. -=-
They need to know that, I think.
If a child is afraid to tell a mom that he found something weird or creepy,
he will keep it to himself. He will be alone with his weird and creepy
discovery and will have to try to make sense of it in some kid-way. That's weirder
and creepier to me than any porn.
Lots of families will reject a child nineteen ways if he admits to having
seen porn. That teaches him to lie. And once he's doing it secretly, why stop
at what's not too creepy? If he can't talk to his mom about it, who WILL he
talk to?
So I think being casual about it is safer and better than electrifying it
with all kinds of danger and import.
I was opening e-mail one day and opened one that goes around, same text,
invitation to a website. They put different subject lines on it, though, and I
can't just delete e-mail I don't recognize, because very often it's requests
for help from homeschoolers and they put subject lines exactly like this:
Hi
or
My friend said to write to you.
So rather than throw homeschool info requests away, I open stuff that's
usually crap and sometimes homeschooling.
So I opened this one and it started off "Hi, my name's Tiffany. My friend
said you were really cool and..."
A couple of my kids were in the room. I said right out loud, "WHAT!? I need
to write back to her and say 'Your name isn't Tiffany, it's JENNIFER. You've
written to me lots of times before, and your name is NOT Tiffany.'"
They just laughed because they've gotten those e-mails too. I don't think
they've looked at the site.
Kirby and Marty have looked at some stuff that they've gotten to through
particular interests. Fan art stuff, some other stuff. I'd rather know and
advise them on not thinking that's normal sex, and they laugh and say "we know"
than to have them being sneaky and me being mean or judgmental or anything less
than matter-of-fact.
Matter of fact, there's been porn of one sort or another around forever.
The humorous bit about "do you want to come up and see my etchings?" is a
reference to that.
When we signed Holly online and were honest about her age, she couldn't even
access her own webpage. We took the age restriction off, and she goes to My
Little Pony sites, Neopets, movie schedules, but mostly she plays solitaire
and uses instant message.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/04 2:39:01 PM, piscesmomx3@... writes:
<< My 4 yro son accidentally stumbled upon a pornographic site. He was using
the pull down menu and someone at my house the night before had been looking
at some. I just pulled it back down and got him where he was trying to go and
never said a word. He didn't think anything of it. >>
That is one deal I did make with Marty. One day I came in and the pulldown
of recent sites was not looking too wholesom, so I asked him to open a bunch of
Neopets addresses or something each night so the recent trail wouldn't be
gross stuff Holly didn't want to see. He figured out how to erase the trail,
and now it slightly grosses me out some mornings to come in and find that there
is no trail whatsoever.
But the thought that Marty looked at something he wants to hide isn't as
gross as seeing the names of nasty sites.
One morning last week I joked with him that I was having to put in all my
regular sites again because the trail was erased and I looked at him over my
glasses in a humorous way. He looked really embarrassed and said "I went to a
cheat code site for (some new x-box game I forget the name) and I'm always saying
I'll never use cheat codes and I was afraid the other guys would see it."
And he went on to tell me that he was just looking for one piece of information
and NOT a cheat, but that's the only place he could find it, and he just
didn't want them to come across it and razz him.
Sandra
<< My 4 yro son accidentally stumbled upon a pornographic site. He was using
the pull down menu and someone at my house the night before had been looking
at some. I just pulled it back down and got him where he was trying to go and
never said a word. He didn't think anything of it. >>
That is one deal I did make with Marty. One day I came in and the pulldown
of recent sites was not looking too wholesom, so I asked him to open a bunch of
Neopets addresses or something each night so the recent trail wouldn't be
gross stuff Holly didn't want to see. He figured out how to erase the trail,
and now it slightly grosses me out some mornings to come in and find that there
is no trail whatsoever.
But the thought that Marty looked at something he wants to hide isn't as
gross as seeing the names of nasty sites.
One morning last week I joked with him that I was having to put in all my
regular sites again because the trail was erased and I looked at him over my
glasses in a humorous way. He looked really embarrassed and said "I went to a
cheat code site for (some new x-box game I forget the name) and I'm always saying
I'll never use cheat codes and I was afraid the other guys would see it."
And he went on to tell me that he was just looking for one piece of information
and NOT a cheat, but that's the only place he could find it, and he just
didn't want them to come across it and razz him.
Sandra
Deirdre Aycock
>>>People magazine had an article recently about children and internetpornography, and apparently there are people who actively lure
children to pornographic websites by consciously misspelling
commonly searched names- for example bobthebiulder.com.
So no, they wouldn't be in trouble. But as of right now, I do like
to be present when one of them is online (remember my kids are under
11). When I was present and involved with the tattoo searching I
could steer him away from questionable sites. So far my presence
hasn't been much of an issue since we live in a little house, but my
11yo is really wanting internet access in his own bedroom of our new
home.
Patti>>>
It sounds like you are trying to protect your children. I think keeping my children safe is one of my most important functions as a mom. But I'm going about that task a little differently than you are. I don't try to steer my kids away from stuff--that feels like I'm trying to pretend it doesn't exist. I want my kids to learn what their comfort level is and listen to themselves--their own feelings about things. Not just pornography, but violence in movies, being around other people, all sorts of things. I'm not going to be around them every second of the day, and I expect them to slowly but surely assume responsibility for keeping themselves safe. I have a daughter that refuses to watch "tear-jerker" type movies because she doesn't like that feeling. My kids (11ds, 9dd) know what pornagraphy is and they know they don't want to look at it (this year, at least). They figured out what spam looked like (all spam) and learned how to either avoid it or delete it without looking at it. Partly because I know they don't want to see porn and warned them about it. I think a lot of what was posted about violence in movies applies to the porn issue. Deirdre
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Janet Hamlin
>>I don't try to steer my kids away from stuff--that feels like I'm tryingto pretend it doesn't exist. I want my kids to learn what their comfort
level is and listen to themselves--their own feelings about things. Not
just pornography, but violence in movies, being around other people, all
sorts of things. I'm not going to be around them every second of the day,
and I expect them to slowly but surely assume responsibility for keeping
themselves safe. <<
I agree. My mother is a worrier, squeamish, afraid of death. I am not. As
a kid, we were shielded from all sorts of things in the name of Christianity
(Jesus wouldn't approve sort of thing. It's not a worthy activity, etc).
Well, I love crime fiction. Patricia Cornwell with her vivid descriptions
of decaying corpses, serial killers on the loose, violence, etc. To meet me
in person, you'd never know - I'm quiet, relatively shy in crowds, etc. But
that sort of thing has always fascinated me. I always watched TV crime
dramas when I'd go babysitting, after the kids were asleep, because I'd
never be allowed to at home. Today, CSI, Law and Order SVU, Cold Case, etc.
are some of my favorite shows, in addition to things like medical dramas
(ER, Chicago Hope when it was on, etc).
As a kid I did get to read mysteries, but they were watered down kid
versions.
And just because I like crime fiction doesn't mean I like crime in real
life. The main reason I didn't go into forensic pathology was 1) the smell
and 2) I couldn't stand seeing in person the horror inflicted upon a human
being by another - in real life.
Reading is an escape.
Janet
Debra Kattler
I've been struggling for a few days to figure out what I want to say
about these various interconnected threads. There's been a lot of
discussion about why some issues are more charged for some people
(familial history of alcohol and drug abuse for example) and how to not
make something charged by not restricting it. It seems to me that not
restricting access to porn or alcohol is not about getting the desired
result of said item having no charge. It's about really being
respectful of a family members' interests and wants. It's difficult for
all of us to get past our own fears (rational or not), but I don't think
you decide how to handle any given issue based on your family history.
Either you respect your child's autonomy or you don't. Certainly your
experience would be part of the information that you share with your
kids. But after that what?
Debra
________________________________________________________________
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about these various interconnected threads. There's been a lot of
discussion about why some issues are more charged for some people
(familial history of alcohol and drug abuse for example) and how to not
make something charged by not restricting it. It seems to me that not
restricting access to porn or alcohol is not about getting the desired
result of said item having no charge. It's about really being
respectful of a family members' interests and wants. It's difficult for
all of us to get past our own fears (rational or not), but I don't think
you decide how to handle any given issue based on your family history.
Either you respect your child's autonomy or you don't. Certainly your
experience would be part of the information that you share with your
kids. But after that what?
Debra
________________________________________________________________
$0 Bannerless Web Hosting, 10 POP and Web Email Accounts, & more
Get It Now At www.doteasy.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/24/04 7:54:19 PM, debra@... writes:
<< I don't think
you decide how to handle any given issue based on your family history.
Either you respect your child's autonomy or you don't. Certainly your
experience would be part of the information that you share with your
kids. But after that what? >>
After that, I'd let them drink if they wanted to, within reason. That means
if Kirby started going through the liquor a bottle a week (we have dusty
various-things in a cabinet in the back), I'd maybe start worrying about it pretty
hard.
But honestly, those bottles aren't hidden and they're all dusty. Several
gallons of stuff altogether.
We've had pear cider and beer and such easier, softer things here and the
kids have never asked for any. I got hard cider in a restaurant one night.
Marty and Holly tasted it but declared it disgusting.
Someone who has been mugged or raped will probably give different advice and
vibes to their kids about going out at night or whatever triggers their
memories. That's just how it goes. And maybe learning from other people's mistakes
and having a checklist of things to have/do/take/consider even though the
problem hasn't happened to that person isn't a bad thing.
We went out of town the other day, overnight, three of us. I insisted on
taking extra keys for the car because I have been locked out of a car before.
Keith and I take a flyswatter camping, always, because we've had wasps in
tents before. So our kids just think extra keys and flyswatters are the way it
goes.
-=- It seems to me that not
restricting access to porn or alcohol is not about getting the desired
result of said item having no charge. It's about really being
respectful of a family members' interests and wants.-=-
At a philosophical level is it. At a practical behavioral conditioning level,
it's news to people who are just considering really THINKING about parenting
instead of just limiting things as the handout the teacher sent home said to,
or as that article in Parent/Parents/Parenting magazine said to, or as their
parents did. The justification that goes with those things is too often
simple-minded, untested or just plain fallacious.
If we go by principles without details and say "respect your child's decisons
and preferences," people will say "We all decided to together at our house
that video games will be turned off after one hour, television is only watched
after 7:00 p.m. and bedtime is at 9:30. Our children helped us decide this,
and preferred it to no TV or videos whatsoever."
Respect as a large spectrum and some people are thrilled they even thought to
include their children in a decision. Big step for them.
Sandra
<< I don't think
you decide how to handle any given issue based on your family history.
Either you respect your child's autonomy or you don't. Certainly your
experience would be part of the information that you share with your
kids. But after that what? >>
After that, I'd let them drink if they wanted to, within reason. That means
if Kirby started going through the liquor a bottle a week (we have dusty
various-things in a cabinet in the back), I'd maybe start worrying about it pretty
hard.
But honestly, those bottles aren't hidden and they're all dusty. Several
gallons of stuff altogether.
We've had pear cider and beer and such easier, softer things here and the
kids have never asked for any. I got hard cider in a restaurant one night.
Marty and Holly tasted it but declared it disgusting.
Someone who has been mugged or raped will probably give different advice and
vibes to their kids about going out at night or whatever triggers their
memories. That's just how it goes. And maybe learning from other people's mistakes
and having a checklist of things to have/do/take/consider even though the
problem hasn't happened to that person isn't a bad thing.
We went out of town the other day, overnight, three of us. I insisted on
taking extra keys for the car because I have been locked out of a car before.
Keith and I take a flyswatter camping, always, because we've had wasps in
tents before. So our kids just think extra keys and flyswatters are the way it
goes.
-=- It seems to me that not
restricting access to porn or alcohol is not about getting the desired
result of said item having no charge. It's about really being
respectful of a family members' interests and wants.-=-
At a philosophical level is it. At a practical behavioral conditioning level,
it's news to people who are just considering really THINKING about parenting
instead of just limiting things as the handout the teacher sent home said to,
or as that article in Parent/Parents/Parenting magazine said to, or as their
parents did. The justification that goes with those things is too often
simple-minded, untested or just plain fallacious.
If we go by principles without details and say "respect your child's decisons
and preferences," people will say "We all decided to together at our house
that video games will be turned off after one hour, television is only watched
after 7:00 p.m. and bedtime is at 9:30. Our children helped us decide this,
and preferred it to no TV or videos whatsoever."
Respect as a large spectrum and some people are thrilled they even thought to
include their children in a decision. Big step for them.
Sandra
DotCom
Last year my then 8 y.o. ds stumbled upon porn while looking for anime
websites (I had told him he would probably like other anime movies since
he was into Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh). A couple weeks later I noticed that
when I would walk into the kitchen (where the computer was) latish at
night he would turn the computer off suddenly. This happened a couple
times. I checked the history and he was doing searches for things like
woman sucking man's penis, boobs, woman having sex with man, etc. I
felt like I had exposed him to something inappropriate. I had a very
calm conversation about it with him where I said that it was normal and
natural to want to look at porn but that it was really meant for older
people. Inside I was a little freaked though. My husband talked to him
and told him that if he wanted to look at it anymore, that he would look
at it with him so that he could help him understand it. The next couple
weeks, I checked periodically and he was still doing the same searches.
So I put Cyber Sitter on all the computers.
I guess I'm afraid. My mom is a sex addict who left my dad to have sex
with lots of people, and attended Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. My
son's biological father is also a sex addict who is obsessed with porn.
Both these people were also drug addicts. I know that porn can be
addictive and can ruin relationships (had nothing to do with the ruin of
ours since we were together all of two weeks). I know that some girls
can't handle being with men who enjoy porn because they feel competitive
about it. I personally don't have issues with porn and have enjoyed it
at different times in my life. But it freaked me out to think of my 8
y.o. looking at it.
So what do you think? Was it stupid to put Cyber Sitter on? Is it
normal for an 8 y.o. to want to keep looking at it? If it was just a
stumbled across it and then went on to something else it wouldn't be an
issue, but he felt the need to keep looking and search for more and hide
it from us. It worries me. Addiction runs rampant in my family. Also
I teach junior high and the boys who obviously spend time looking at
porn are little perverts who think/talk about nothing else than female
body parts and the use of them and can't seem to think of the girls as
actual people. Talk some sense to me someone!!
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
*
In a message dated 4/23/04 12:42:49 PM, patti.schmidt2@...
writes:
I read that. But the solution of the family being quoted near the end
was to
put the computer in the kitchen (or whichever public room, I forget) so
the
kid was next to his mom.
This is the electronic version of making boys sleep with their hands
outside
the covers.
People used to tuck their kids in, literally---stick the covers under
the
sides of the bed. And boys were made to have their hands outside the
covers in
lots of families so they couldn't touch themselves at night.
-=-So no, they wouldn't be in trouble. -=-
They need to know that, I think.
If a child is afraid to tell a mom that he found something weird or
creepy,
he will keep it to himself. He will be alone with his weird and creepy
discovery and will have to try to make sense of it in some kid-way.
That's weirder
and creepier to me than any porn.
Lots of families will reject a child nineteen ways if he admits to
having
seen porn. That teaches him to lie. And once he's doing it secretly,
why stop
at what's not too creepy? If he can't talk to his mom about it, who
WILL he
talk to?
So I think being casual about it is safer and better than electrifying
it
with all kinds of danger and import.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
websites (I had told him he would probably like other anime movies since
he was into Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh). A couple weeks later I noticed that
when I would walk into the kitchen (where the computer was) latish at
night he would turn the computer off suddenly. This happened a couple
times. I checked the history and he was doing searches for things like
woman sucking man's penis, boobs, woman having sex with man, etc. I
felt like I had exposed him to something inappropriate. I had a very
calm conversation about it with him where I said that it was normal and
natural to want to look at porn but that it was really meant for older
people. Inside I was a little freaked though. My husband talked to him
and told him that if he wanted to look at it anymore, that he would look
at it with him so that he could help him understand it. The next couple
weeks, I checked periodically and he was still doing the same searches.
So I put Cyber Sitter on all the computers.
I guess I'm afraid. My mom is a sex addict who left my dad to have sex
with lots of people, and attended Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous. My
son's biological father is also a sex addict who is obsessed with porn.
Both these people were also drug addicts. I know that porn can be
addictive and can ruin relationships (had nothing to do with the ruin of
ours since we were together all of two weeks). I know that some girls
can't handle being with men who enjoy porn because they feel competitive
about it. I personally don't have issues with porn and have enjoyed it
at different times in my life. But it freaked me out to think of my 8
y.o. looking at it.
So what do you think? Was it stupid to put Cyber Sitter on? Is it
normal for an 8 y.o. to want to keep looking at it? If it was just a
stumbled across it and then went on to something else it wouldn't be an
issue, but he felt the need to keep looking and search for more and hide
it from us. It worries me. Addiction runs rampant in my family. Also
I teach junior high and the boys who obviously spend time looking at
porn are little perverts who think/talk about nothing else than female
body parts and the use of them and can't seem to think of the girls as
actual people. Talk some sense to me someone!!
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
*
In a message dated 4/23/04 12:42:49 PM, patti.schmidt2@...
writes:
I read that. But the solution of the family being quoted near the end
was to
put the computer in the kitchen (or whichever public room, I forget) so
the
kid was next to his mom.
This is the electronic version of making boys sleep with their hands
outside
the covers.
People used to tuck their kids in, literally---stick the covers under
the
sides of the bed. And boys were made to have their hands outside the
covers in
lots of families so they couldn't touch themselves at night.
-=-So no, they wouldn't be in trouble. -=-
They need to know that, I think.
If a child is afraid to tell a mom that he found something weird or
creepy,
he will keep it to himself. He will be alone with his weird and creepy
discovery and will have to try to make sense of it in some kid-way.
That's weirder
and creepier to me than any porn.
Lots of families will reject a child nineteen ways if he admits to
having
seen porn. That teaches him to lie. And once he's doing it secretly,
why stop
at what's not too creepy? If he can't talk to his mom about it, who
WILL he
talk to?
So I think being casual about it is safer and better than electrifying
it
with all kinds of danger and import.
.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
Also
I teach junior high and the boys who obviously spend time looking at
porn are little perverts who think/talk about nothing else than female
body parts and the use of them and can't seem to think of the girls as
actual people. **
The word "pervert" is a pretty unpleasant label. I
To me, it seems normal for junior high school age boys to be interested in sexual stuff, especially as it is promoted so much in our media culture. I also think it's within the realm of normal for boys this age to be inconsiderate dorks who have little compassion for others. (Or, if they do, it's understandable that they don't show it considering how hostile and competitive the school environment might be.)
It does feel surprising that an 8 year old is interested, but overall I would think calmness and seeing if you can understand why he's interested will be more effective than a strong reaction.
Betsy
Also
I teach junior high and the boys who obviously spend time looking at
porn are little perverts who think/talk about nothing else than female
body parts and the use of them and can't seem to think of the girls as
actual people. **
The word "pervert" is a pretty unpleasant label. I
To me, it seems normal for junior high school age boys to be interested in sexual stuff, especially as it is promoted so much in our media culture. I also think it's within the realm of normal for boys this age to be inconsiderate dorks who have little compassion for others. (Or, if they do, it's understandable that they don't show it considering how hostile and competitive the school environment might be.)
It does feel surprising that an 8 year old is interested, but overall I would think calmness and seeing if you can understand why he's interested will be more effective than a strong reaction.
Betsy
DotCom
You're right, pervert is a strong unpleasant label, which is why I used
it. I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
Having had health class and discussed these things with these students,
the differences between the "normal" thoughts and actions and the
porn-influenced ones are huge and glaringly obvious.
That is why I worry about my son. I intentionally and carefully did not
react strongly towards my son because I don't want to turn it into an
"issue". There are so many sexual issues in my family history that I
don't want passed on. I even told him about how I used to sneak and
look at nudie calendars at the bookstore as a kid, and that it was not a
big deal and did not shame him for it whatsoever. I don't think it's
appropriate for him to keep looking at it regularly though which is why
I put Cyber Sitter on. I don't know.
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Hill [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 9:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
*
**
Also
I teach junior high and the boys who obviously spend time looking at
porn are little perverts who think/talk about nothing else than female
body parts and the use of them and can't seem to think of the girls as
actual people. **
The word "pervert" is a pretty unpleasant label. I
To me, it seems normal for junior high school age boys to be interested
in sexual stuff, especially as it is promoted so much in our media
culture. I also think it's within the realm of normal for boys this age
to be inconsiderate dorks who have little compassion for others. (Or,
if they do, it's understandable that they don't show it considering how
hostile and competitive the school environment might be.)
It does feel surprising that an 8 year old is interested, but overall I
would think calmness and seeing if you can understand why he's
interested will be more effective than a strong reaction.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it. I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
Having had health class and discussed these things with these students,
the differences between the "normal" thoughts and actions and the
porn-influenced ones are huge and glaringly obvious.
That is why I worry about my son. I intentionally and carefully did not
react strongly towards my son because I don't want to turn it into an
"issue". There are so many sexual issues in my family history that I
don't want passed on. I even told him about how I used to sneak and
look at nudie calendars at the bookstore as a kid, and that it was not a
big deal and did not shame him for it whatsoever. I don't think it's
appropriate for him to keep looking at it regularly though which is why
I put Cyber Sitter on. I don't know.
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Hill [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 9:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
*
**
Also
I teach junior high and the boys who obviously spend time looking at
porn are little perverts who think/talk about nothing else than female
body parts and the use of them and can't seem to think of the girls as
actual people. **
The word "pervert" is a pretty unpleasant label. I
To me, it seems normal for junior high school age boys to be interested
in sexual stuff, especially as it is promoted so much in our media
culture. I also think it's within the realm of normal for boys this age
to be inconsiderate dorks who have little compassion for others. (Or,
if they do, it's understandable that they don't show it considering how
hostile and competitive the school environment might be.)
It does feel surprising that an 8 year old is interested, but overall I
would think calmness and seeing if you can understand why he's
interested will be more effective than a strong reaction.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Elizabeth Hill
**
I don't think it's
appropriate for him to keep looking at it regularly though which is why
I put Cyber Sitter on. I don't know.**
I don't know either.
Betsy
I don't think it's
appropriate for him to keep looking at it regularly though which is why
I put Cyber Sitter on. I don't know.**
I don't know either.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/2004 5:50:52 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
dotcom.com@... writes:
I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
===============
There are boys who think with their dicks even if they've never had porn.
I taught Jr. High too. There was no internet porn in those days, nor home
VCRs yet (just starting to be available, Betamax mostly!), but there were boys
who were constant streams of sexual innuendo and crass comments. When I was
in school myself, there were nasty boys, encouraged byother boys, to never
shut up about it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dotcom.com@... writes:
I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
===============
There are boys who think with their dicks even if they've never had porn.
I taught Jr. High too. There was no internet porn in those days, nor home
VCRs yet (just starting to be available, Betamax mostly!), but there were boys
who were constant streams of sexual innuendo and crass comments. When I was
in school myself, there were nasty boys, encouraged byother boys, to never
shut up about it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/25/2004 5:50:52 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
dotcom.com@... writes:
I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
===========
I have to come back to this. It bothers me to think that you're labelling
data to support your argument.
-=-the differences between the "normal" thoughts and actions and the
porn-influenced ones are huge and glaringly obvious. -=-
I think when you see an obvious interest you say "must be porn influenced."
Marty went to a Junior Police Academy. He did really well. After the
closing ceremonies, I went to thank one of the directors. He GUSHED about Marty's
behavior and maturity and how pleasant he was to be around. He said "You can
all ways tell when a child comes from a home with a lot of rules and
discipline."
He was wrong!! Marty comes from a home with VERY few rules and no discipline
(in the way he was picturing it, I'm sure). I kinda laughed and said we
really didn't have many rules at all, but it wasn't the time to spill it all (nor
could I just agree with him).
He's a professional. He deals with families good and bad. He works with
kids at the police academies (kind of summer camps for kids, the city sponsors
for those who apply and qualify). He says as a professional that he can always
tell.
So how could he be that wrong about Marty?
I'm wondering, if you met Marty in the context of 9th graders (he turned 15
in January) whether you would think he couldn't POSSIBLY have ever seen porn,
because he's so respectful of girls and so non pervert-like?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dotcom.com@... writes:
I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
===========
I have to come back to this. It bothers me to think that you're labelling
data to support your argument.
-=-the differences between the "normal" thoughts and actions and the
porn-influenced ones are huge and glaringly obvious. -=-
I think when you see an obvious interest you say "must be porn influenced."
Marty went to a Junior Police Academy. He did really well. After the
closing ceremonies, I went to thank one of the directors. He GUSHED about Marty's
behavior and maturity and how pleasant he was to be around. He said "You can
all ways tell when a child comes from a home with a lot of rules and
discipline."
He was wrong!! Marty comes from a home with VERY few rules and no discipline
(in the way he was picturing it, I'm sure). I kinda laughed and said we
really didn't have many rules at all, but it wasn't the time to spill it all (nor
could I just agree with him).
He's a professional. He deals with families good and bad. He works with
kids at the police academies (kind of summer camps for kids, the city sponsors
for those who apply and qualify). He says as a professional that he can always
tell.
So how could he be that wrong about Marty?
I'm wondering, if you met Marty in the context of 9th graders (he turned 15
in January) whether you would think he couldn't POSSIBLY have ever seen porn,
because he's so respectful of girls and so non pervert-like?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
DotCom
I'm sure you're right that I'm over generalizing. I don't think a
single one of the teens I know has never seen porn. I just know that
the ones who are obnoxious about their sexuality (as in, that's almost
all they ever talk about, other kids ask to be moved away from them so
they don't have to hear the constant barrage, etc.) are also into porn.
There are most likely those who use porn who do not behave that way.
What causes it then I wonder? Is it the extent maybe? Those who become
absorbed in it and even addicted or obsessed versus those who can use it
to enjoy themselves and then forget about it.
I am not at all anti-porn. But I know it can be destructive. I guess
the key word there is *can* be, it doesn't have to be. But sex has been
used in many destructive ways in my family. My 13 y.o., who is not mine
biologically, is not interested in porn yet. Buy my 8 y.o. little boy
was, maybe still is. It's very scary to me. I have similar fears about
drug use since that addiction is also rampant in my family.
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 5:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
* In a message dated 4/25/2004 5:50:52 PM Mountain Daylight
Time,
dotcom.com@... writes:
I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
===========
I have to come back to this. It bothers me to think that you're
labelling
data to support your argument.
-=-the differences between the "normal" thoughts and actions and the
porn-influenced ones are huge and glaringly obvious. -=-
I think when you see an obvious interest you say "must be porn
influenced."
Marty went to a Junior Police Academy. He did really well. After the
closing ceremonies, I went to thank one of the directors. He GUSHED
about Marty's
behavior and maturity and how pleasant he was to be around. He said
"You can
all ways tell when a child comes from a home with a lot of rules and
discipline."
He was wrong!! Marty comes from a home with VERY few rules and no
discipline
(in the way he was picturing it, I'm sure). I kinda laughed and said
we
really didn't have many rules at all, but it wasn't the time to spill it
all (nor
could I just agree with him).
He's a professional. He deals with families good and bad. He works
with
kids at the police academies (kind of summer camps for kids, the city
sponsors
for those who apply and qualify). He says as a professional that he
can always
tell.
So how could he be that wrong about Marty?
I'm wondering, if you met Marty in the context of 9th graders (he turned
15
in January) whether you would think he couldn't POSSIBLY have ever seen
porn,
because he's so respectful of girls and so non pervert-like?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
single one of the teens I know has never seen porn. I just know that
the ones who are obnoxious about their sexuality (as in, that's almost
all they ever talk about, other kids ask to be moved away from them so
they don't have to hear the constant barrage, etc.) are also into porn.
There are most likely those who use porn who do not behave that way.
What causes it then I wonder? Is it the extent maybe? Those who become
absorbed in it and even addicted or obsessed versus those who can use it
to enjoy themselves and then forget about it.
I am not at all anti-porn. But I know it can be destructive. I guess
the key word there is *can* be, it doesn't have to be. But sex has been
used in many destructive ways in my family. My 13 y.o., who is not mine
biologically, is not interested in porn yet. Buy my 8 y.o. little boy
was, maybe still is. It's very scary to me. I have similar fears about
drug use since that addiction is also rampant in my family.
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 5:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
* In a message dated 4/25/2004 5:50:52 PM Mountain Daylight
Time,
dotcom.com@... writes:
I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
===========
I have to come back to this. It bothers me to think that you're
labelling
data to support your argument.
-=-the differences between the "normal" thoughts and actions and the
porn-influenced ones are huge and glaringly obvious. -=-
I think when you see an obvious interest you say "must be porn
influenced."
Marty went to a Junior Police Academy. He did really well. After the
closing ceremonies, I went to thank one of the directors. He GUSHED
about Marty's
behavior and maturity and how pleasant he was to be around. He said
"You can
all ways tell when a child comes from a home with a lot of rules and
discipline."
He was wrong!! Marty comes from a home with VERY few rules and no
discipline
(in the way he was picturing it, I'm sure). I kinda laughed and said
we
really didn't have many rules at all, but it wasn't the time to spill it
all (nor
could I just agree with him).
He's a professional. He deals with families good and bad. He works
with
kids at the police academies (kind of summer camps for kids, the city
sponsors
for those who apply and qualify). He says as a professional that he
can always
tell.
So how could he be that wrong about Marty?
I'm wondering, if you met Marty in the context of 9th graders (he turned
15
in January) whether you would think he couldn't POSSIBLY have ever seen
porn,
because he's so respectful of girls and so non pervert-like?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 4/26/04 12:53 AM, DotCom at dotcom.com@... wrote:
biochemistries are causing them to be more interested in sex. And one outlet
for their particular body chemistry is looking at porn.
(There may be kids with homelife problems too who lack the connections they
need with others and since sex (and pron as an outlet) is a form of
connection it may be where their needs lead.)
It's a theory that explains more data (that is, what boys do) than the
theory that porn leads to seeing girls as objects of sex since some boys who
look at porn don't do that.
Unfortunately they're probably going it alone with no adult to talk to. And
no one to give them a bigger picture. All they have is each other starting
from ignorance.
Joyce
> I just know thatI suspect it's the other way around. Porn isn't causing the behavior. Their
> the ones who are obnoxious about their sexuality (as in, that's almost
> all they ever talk about, other kids ask to be moved away from them so
> they don't have to hear the constant barrage, etc.) are also into porn.
biochemistries are causing them to be more interested in sex. And one outlet
for their particular body chemistry is looking at porn.
(There may be kids with homelife problems too who lack the connections they
need with others and since sex (and pron as an outlet) is a form of
connection it may be where their needs lead.)
It's a theory that explains more data (that is, what boys do) than the
theory that porn leads to seeing girls as objects of sex since some boys who
look at porn don't do that.
Unfortunately they're probably going it alone with no adult to talk to. And
no one to give them a bigger picture. All they have is each other starting
from ignorance.
Joyce
Kay Alina
There is a book called "Out of the Shadows" by Patrick Carnes that deals with the issues of sexual addiction. He also has a website. It is www.sexhelp.com just in case your interested.
Kay
Kay
----- Original Message -----
From: DotCom
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
You're right, pervert is a strong unpleasant label, which is why I used
it. I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
Having had health class and discussed these things with these students,
the differences between the "normal" thoughts and actions and the
porn-influenced ones are huge and glaringly obvious.
That is why I worry about my son. I intentionally and carefully did not
react strongly towards my son because I don't want to turn it into an
"issue". There are so many sexual issues in my family history that I
don't want passed on. I even told him about how I used to sneak and
look at nudie calendars at the bookstore as a kid, and that it was not a
big deal and did not shame him for it whatsoever. I don't think it's
appropriate for him to keep looking at it regularly though which is why
I put Cyber Sitter on. I don't know.
Sarah
-----Original Message-----
From: Elizabeth Hill [mailto:ecsamhill@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 9:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
*
**
Also
I teach junior high and the boys who obviously spend time looking at
porn are little perverts who think/talk about nothing else than female
body parts and the use of them and can't seem to think of the girls as
actual people. **
The word "pervert" is a pretty unpleasant label. I
To me, it seems normal for junior high school age boys to be interested
in sexual stuff, especially as it is promoted so much in our media
culture. I also think it's within the realm of normal for boys this age
to be inconsiderate dorks who have little compassion for others. (Or,
if they do, it's understandable that they don't show it considering how
hostile and competitive the school environment might be.)
It does feel surprising that an 8 year old is interested, but overall I
would think calmness and seeing if you can understand why he's
interested will be more effective than a strong reaction.
Betsy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-=- I just know that the ones who are obnoxious about their sexuality. . .
are also into porn. There are most likely those who use porn who do not behave
that way.
What causes it then I wonder? -=-
I think it has to do with wholeness and self esteem.
Those who are obsessed with attention-getting about a topic that seems itself
the ultimate in attention-getting are needy.
Children who have no void inside them don't need to fill their void.
Children with a void cram any old crap in there.
Unschooled kids do not tend to be needy of attention or respect or positive
regard.
A kid whose parents and teachers think he's irritating and bad might be made
to feel more soothed and good by porn, or being obnoxious, or cutting his desk
or his arm. Why not do what he wants? People hate him already.
A kid whose parents show him REAL, honest regard and a kid who knows the
goodness in him because he gets chances to use it in real ways and be recognized
when he uses it won't feel that he'll be MORE real/honest/good if he sees porn
than if he doesn't.
That's what I think.
I'm thinking of real people as I'm writing this, and the worst nasty-mouth
boy we know has the greatest voids in his life. His dad has been in prison
nearly all or all his life; his mom had another baby by someone else, and he's had
to take care of that boy more often than ANY brother should have to take care
of a child not much younger than himself, and his mom has a string of loser
boyfriends. This is a friend of Marty's. He's been in school and out, but he
prefers in, because he needs an audience, and he needs the thrill of
acceptance and rejection. He needs bustle and input all the time. They put him on
ritalin so his grades would be better. He said it makes his brain numb.
He has his dad's genetics and his mom's too. He's been neglected. Loved in
some real ways, but inconsistent ways.
He needs porn. But the porn didn't come first.
The idea that someone would pay intimate total attention to him is really an
important fantasy.
I've written two essays which don't touch on porn in any way whatsoever, but
I'm going to list them here for anyone who's thinking maybe that I'm full of
nonsense-beans. I think they're magic beans, myself.
http://sandradodd.com/respect
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
Sandra
are also into porn. There are most likely those who use porn who do not behave
that way.
What causes it then I wonder? -=-
I think it has to do with wholeness and self esteem.
Those who are obsessed with attention-getting about a topic that seems itself
the ultimate in attention-getting are needy.
Children who have no void inside them don't need to fill their void.
Children with a void cram any old crap in there.
Unschooled kids do not tend to be needy of attention or respect or positive
regard.
A kid whose parents and teachers think he's irritating and bad might be made
to feel more soothed and good by porn, or being obnoxious, or cutting his desk
or his arm. Why not do what he wants? People hate him already.
A kid whose parents show him REAL, honest regard and a kid who knows the
goodness in him because he gets chances to use it in real ways and be recognized
when he uses it won't feel that he'll be MORE real/honest/good if he sees porn
than if he doesn't.
That's what I think.
I'm thinking of real people as I'm writing this, and the worst nasty-mouth
boy we know has the greatest voids in his life. His dad has been in prison
nearly all or all his life; his mom had another baby by someone else, and he's had
to take care of that boy more often than ANY brother should have to take care
of a child not much younger than himself, and his mom has a string of loser
boyfriends. This is a friend of Marty's. He's been in school and out, but he
prefers in, because he needs an audience, and he needs the thrill of
acceptance and rejection. He needs bustle and input all the time. They put him on
ritalin so his grades would be better. He said it makes his brain numb.
He has his dad's genetics and his mom's too. He's been neglected. Loved in
some real ways, but inconsistent ways.
He needs porn. But the porn didn't come first.
The idea that someone would pay intimate total attention to him is really an
important fantasy.
I've written two essays which don't touch on porn in any way whatsoever, but
I'm going to list them here for anyone who's thinking maybe that I'm full of
nonsense-beans. I think they're magic beans, myself.
http://sandradodd.com/respect
http://sandradodd.com/spoiled
Sandra
J. Stauffer
<<<<I am not at all anti-porn. But I know it can be destructive. I guess
Perhaps watching porn a lot causes an "over-interest" in sex....or perhaps
an overly active libido causes a person to be very interested in porn.
Or perhaps neither one causes anything and it is a simple correlation. I'm
sitting at the computer and my knees ache. My knees don't ache because I'm
at the computer and being at the computer didn't cause my knees to ache. 12
years of karate did.
Julie S.
Julie S.
> the key word there is *can* be, it doesn't have to be. >>>>Not all correlations are causative relationships.
Perhaps watching porn a lot causes an "over-interest" in sex....or perhaps
an overly active libido causes a person to be very interested in porn.
Or perhaps neither one causes anything and it is a simple correlation. I'm
sitting at the computer and my knees ache. My knees don't ache because I'm
at the computer and being at the computer didn't cause my knees to ache. 12
years of karate did.
Julie S.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "DotCom" <dotcom.com@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 11:53 PM
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
> I'm sure you're right that I'm over generalizing. I don't think a
> single one of the teens I know has never seen porn. I just know that
> the ones who are obnoxious about their sexuality (as in, that's almost
> all they ever talk about, other kids ask to be moved away from them so
> they don't have to hear the constant barrage, etc.) are also into porn.
> There are most likely those who use porn who do not behave that way.
> What causes it then I wonder? Is it the extent maybe? Those who become
> absorbed in it and even addicted or obsessed versus those who can use it
> to enjoy themselves and then forget about it.
> I am not at all anti-porn. But I know it can be destructive. I guess
> the key word there is *can* be, it doesn't have to be. But sex has been
> used in many destructive ways in my family. My 13 y.o., who is not mine
> biologically, is not interested in porn yet. Buy my 8 y.o. little boy
> was, maybe still is. It's very scary to me. I have similar fears about
> drug use since that addiction is also rampant in my family.
> Sarah
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
> Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 5:47 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kids and the internet
>
> * In a message dated 4/25/2004 5:50:52 PM Mountain Daylight
> Time,
> dotcom.com@... writes:
> I agree it is normal for junior age kids to be interested in sexual
> stuff. However, those who use porn regularly go far beyond this.
> ===========
>
> I have to come back to this. It bothers me to think that you're
> labelling
> data to support your argument.
>
> -=-the differences between the "normal" thoughts and actions and the
> porn-influenced ones are huge and glaringly obvious. -=-
>
> I think when you see an obvious interest you say "must be porn
> influenced."
>
> Marty went to a Junior Police Academy. He did really well. After the
> closing ceremonies, I went to thank one of the directors. He GUSHED
> about Marty's
> behavior and maturity and how pleasant he was to be around. He said
> "You can
> all ways tell when a child comes from a home with a lot of rules and
> discipline."
>
> He was wrong!! Marty comes from a home with VERY few rules and no
> discipline
> (in the way he was picturing it, I'm sure). I kinda laughed and said
> we
> really didn't have many rules at all, but it wasn't the time to spill it
> all (nor
> could I just agree with him).
>
> He's a professional. He deals with families good and bad. He works
> with
> kids at the police academies (kind of summer camps for kids, the city
> sponsors
> for those who apply and qualify). He says as a professional that he
> can always
> tell.
>
> So how could he be that wrong about Marty?
>
> I'm wondering, if you met Marty in the context of 9th graders (he turned
> 15
> in January) whether you would think he couldn't POSSIBLY have ever seen
> porn,
> because he's so respectful of girls and so non pervert-like?
>
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/26/04 11:32:13 AM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< Or perhaps neither one causes anything and it is a simple correlation. I'm
sitting at the computer and my knees ache. My knees don't ache because I'm
at the computer and being at the computer didn't cause my knees to ache. 12
years of karate did. >>
I'm reading this and my head is hurting.
But I've been reading for three hours, and that might be makng my head hurt.
<g>
Or maybe I need protein. Probably. And I'd better get some now, because
we're babysitting this afternoon and I will be holding a baby for hours, because
that's the way it works with this baby.
Good to try NOT to have a headache then.
I will let her sleep on me, though, and watch a movie!
Here's something else I think about adults and porn:
Some people read it or look at it who never have real sex.
It's better than nothing.
Some people read it who DO have real sex, but their husband doesn't like to
do the same kinds of things the wife likes to think about. Sometimes she
wouldn't want him to, really.
Some people don't look at porn and maybe they should, because instead they're
out at bars trying to pick up every female. Better they were home with a six
pack watching movies, I think.
Sandra
<< Or perhaps neither one causes anything and it is a simple correlation. I'm
sitting at the computer and my knees ache. My knees don't ache because I'm
at the computer and being at the computer didn't cause my knees to ache. 12
years of karate did. >>
I'm reading this and my head is hurting.
But I've been reading for three hours, and that might be makng my head hurt.
<g>
Or maybe I need protein. Probably. And I'd better get some now, because
we're babysitting this afternoon and I will be holding a baby for hours, because
that's the way it works with this baby.
Good to try NOT to have a headache then.
I will let her sleep on me, though, and watch a movie!
Here's something else I think about adults and porn:
Some people read it or look at it who never have real sex.
It's better than nothing.
Some people read it who DO have real sex, but their husband doesn't like to
do the same kinds of things the wife likes to think about. Sometimes she
wouldn't want him to, really.
Some people don't look at porn and maybe they should, because instead they're
out at bars trying to pick up every female. Better they were home with a six
pack watching movies, I think.
Sandra
mamamirandas
--- In [email protected], Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
I'm a lurker and was planning on staying that way for awhile until I
got a feel fo this group, but I have found I can't resist offering
my oppinion this time, which is: I think all of you who keep
saying "I don't know" really do know in your heart what you should
do, but you want someone to tell you whether you are right or
wrong. Because it is often easier to listen and follow others than
to listen to our own inner conscience. I think if your "gut"
reaction was to put cybersitter on then that was a good choice for
you and perhaps you needn't concern yourself with whether others
will think you did right. But, I'm not really trying to criticize.
I think it is good learn other people's views about things, which is
why I like lurking on this group. I just think people don't need to
question themselves so much.
Miranda
<ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
>is why
> **
>
> I don't think it's
> appropriate for him to keep looking at it regularly though which
> I put Cyber Sitter on. I don't know.**Hello,
>
> I don't know either.
>
> Betsy
I'm a lurker and was planning on staying that way for awhile until I
got a feel fo this group, but I have found I can't resist offering
my oppinion this time, which is: I think all of you who keep
saying "I don't know" really do know in your heart what you should
do, but you want someone to tell you whether you are right or
wrong. Because it is often easier to listen and follow others than
to listen to our own inner conscience. I think if your "gut"
reaction was to put cybersitter on then that was a good choice for
you and perhaps you needn't concern yourself with whether others
will think you did right. But, I'm not really trying to criticize.
I think it is good learn other people's views about things, which is
why I like lurking on this group. I just think people don't need to
question themselves so much.
Miranda
Fetteroll
on 5/22/04 1:10 AM, mamamirandas at Mirandas_vale@... wrote:
wouldn't occur to you to assume that.
"I don't know" might be code for "I'm not confident in my own feelings" in
general conversation, but on a list where people turn things over this way
and that it's not a good guess for what that phrase means.
"I don't know," can mean that more than one answer seems right. More
discussion could be useful. More reflection on the special circumstances in
a family's life could be useful.
is correct. Society says we "should" be protecting our kids from the evils
of the internet even if we have to spend more money and it means the kids
get mad at us.
When the goal is helping kids explore the world rather than protecting kids
from it, then discussion is better than going with what our
(brainwashed-by-conventional-thought) guts are telling us.
Joyce
> I think all of you who keepI think if you read here for a long time and got to know the people that it
> saying "I don't know" really do know in your heart what you should
> do, but you want someone to tell you whether you are right or
> wrong.
wouldn't occur to you to assume that.
"I don't know" might be code for "I'm not confident in my own feelings" in
general conversation, but on a list where people turn things over this way
and that it's not a good guess for what that phrase means.
"I don't know," can mean that more than one answer seems right. More
discussion could be useful. More reflection on the special circumstances in
a family's life could be useful.
> I think if your "gut"And I think our guts are often ruled by what society has led us to believe
> reaction was to put cybersitter on then that was a good choice for
> you and perhaps you needn't concern yourself with whether others
> will think you did right.
is correct. Society says we "should" be protecting our kids from the evils
of the internet even if we have to spend more money and it means the kids
get mad at us.
When the goal is helping kids explore the world rather than protecting kids
from it, then discussion is better than going with what our
(brainwashed-by-conventional-thought) guts are telling us.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/22/04 7:56:09 AM, Mirandas_vale@... writes:
<< Because it is often easier to listen and follow others than
to listen to our own inner conscience. I think if your "gut"
reaction was to put cybersitter on then that was a good choice for
you and perhaps you needn't concern yourself with whether others
will think you did right. >>
People's gut reaction is often to spank, but it's better for them to think
"Oooh, I don't know" than to do that.
It's not that they're concerned with whether others thought they did right.
It's their concern that maybe what they're doing won't be a step in the
direction of helping the child make his own decisions.
-=-I think all of you who keep
saying "I don't know" really do know -=-
To think "all" of anyone really knows anything is a lot to think all at once!
-=-I think it is good learn other people's views about things, which is
why I like lurking on this group. I just think people don't need to
question themselves so much.-=-
People who have lived calm, thoughtful, peaceful lives for years probably
don't need to question themselves much at all. People who are fresh from a
frustrating few years with school and loud pushy relatives, who were brought up
with a lot of rules and threats and arbitrary frameworks need to question all of
that before they can unschool at all.
I'm having a big "Howard Gardner sez..." month.
Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences talk about intrapersonal (self
awareness) and interpersonal intelligences. Some people have a lot of that, and
since childhood are reading other people's subtle clues, being calmly aware of
their own reactions, analyzing what they could have done better in a situation,
apeople aren't as good at that and some are just new to the idea of making
their own decisions.
Lots of the "don't question" matters of this culture's past (children should
been seen but not heard, "because I said so," etc. ) can be louder in a
person's head than her own voice. In those cases, people need to question
themselves very much.
It has to do with priorities and principles. People question themselves in
light of their principles and priorities. If it's high on someone's personal
list of priorities "Act without questioning yourself so much," then she will do
that.
For me, being mindful means questioning.
Yet within that mindfulness you come, with time and experience, to hours or
days where you act without questioning yourself because you've become
accustomed to doing things in light of your principles.
Sandra
<< Because it is often easier to listen and follow others than
to listen to our own inner conscience. I think if your "gut"
reaction was to put cybersitter on then that was a good choice for
you and perhaps you needn't concern yourself with whether others
will think you did right. >>
People's gut reaction is often to spank, but it's better for them to think
"Oooh, I don't know" than to do that.
It's not that they're concerned with whether others thought they did right.
It's their concern that maybe what they're doing won't be a step in the
direction of helping the child make his own decisions.
-=-I think all of you who keep
saying "I don't know" really do know -=-
To think "all" of anyone really knows anything is a lot to think all at once!
-=-I think it is good learn other people's views about things, which is
why I like lurking on this group. I just think people don't need to
question themselves so much.-=-
People who have lived calm, thoughtful, peaceful lives for years probably
don't need to question themselves much at all. People who are fresh from a
frustrating few years with school and loud pushy relatives, who were brought up
with a lot of rules and threats and arbitrary frameworks need to question all of
that before they can unschool at all.
I'm having a big "Howard Gardner sez..." month.
Howard Gardner's multiple intelligences talk about intrapersonal (self
awareness) and interpersonal intelligences. Some people have a lot of that, and
since childhood are reading other people's subtle clues, being calmly aware of
their own reactions, analyzing what they could have done better in a situation,
apeople aren't as good at that and some are just new to the idea of making
their own decisions.
Lots of the "don't question" matters of this culture's past (children should
been seen but not heard, "because I said so," etc. ) can be louder in a
person's head than her own voice. In those cases, people need to question
themselves very much.
It has to do with priorities and principles. People question themselves in
light of their principles and priorities. If it's high on someone's personal
list of priorities "Act without questioning yourself so much," then she will do
that.
For me, being mindful means questioning.
Yet within that mindfulness you come, with time and experience, to hours or
days where you act without questioning yourself because you've become
accustomed to doing things in light of your principles.
Sandra
mamamirandas
>protecting kids
> When the goal is helping kids explore the world rather than
> from it, then discussion is better than going with what ourI have thought about the idea of "brainwashing" a lot recently.
> (brainwashed-by-conventional-thought) guts are telling us.
>
> Joyce
Mainly because the other day I was talking to my sister about
unschooling and she said that *I* was brainwashed by all the
material I've been reading (thinking public school is bad and so
on.) I disagree with her statement, though. I think usually one
has to be psychologically vulnerable to be brainwashed. Sometimes
groups can brainwash others using fear or guilt trips, but other
times there is more of a subtle brainwashing that can happen from
what we are exposed to throughout our life (such as the idea that
going to school is the only way to learn). I think learning about
other peoples perspectives is actually opening my mind rather than
brainwashing it. I agree that discussion is good as it opens peoples
minds to new ideas and ways of thinking, but I also think part of
keeping your mind open is realizing that once you have discussed and
thought about your choices, it is ultimately *you* who has to decide
what your going to do and to me that is listening to one's inner
conscience. sometimes that inner voice will take you on new paths
and sometimes you might end up doing the "conventional" thing.
These are just my thoughts.
Miranda