Ren

While I totally agree with most of what you said in response Kelly, I really hope you don't send that to your childs Grandfather. Or was that just a vent?
I think I'd reply by saying I think that those aren't the kind of wishes I'd want for any human being, much less my child, and leave it at that.
I did disagree with one thing you wrote:
"Funerals are barbaric"
Funerals keep us from acting barbaric actually.:) If we were barbaric, we'd just dump the bodies in the town dump or something. Funerals are ritual, stuffy though they can be. I personally prefer memorial services, and more unique rituals, but having the body present has been common in many cultures all over the world.
When I'm gone, my only wish is that they DON'T have a funeral. But I still don't think "barbaric" acurrately describes them.

ok,ok, I know you're pissed at him and probably inclined to use strong words....but you know me, I just can't shut up if I disagree.

Ren


"There is no way to
peace. Peace is the way."
~Quaker saying

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2004 4:16:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

While I totally agree with most of what you said in response Kelly, I really
hope you don't send that to your childs Grandfather. Or was that just a
vent?<<<<<


Sorry, Ren. I sent it. I've requested several times not to receive crap like
this. Just for him to take me off his "send to everyone" list. My
mother-in-law finally agreed to my request several months ago. Mike's not as accomodating,
I guess. I get 2-3 stupid e-mails from him each week. This one just sent me
over the edge.

The one I got today was two seagulls with one "yacking" away. Guess which
one's the female was the question. Lovely.


>>>>>>I did disagree with one thing you wrote:
I think I'd reply by saying I think that t
"Funerals are barbaric"<<<<<<<<


I think funerals ARE barbaric. I don't go. And I don't make my kids go.

In my mind, civilized folk would have parties BEFORE they die. At least
that's what I do on a very regular basis---just in case I kick the bucket suddenly,
I'll know I just had a party last week! <BWG>

I hate funerals. I can think of so many ways to spend that kind of money and
time and effort---and it'll be BEFORE someone dies!


>>>>Funerals keep us from acting barbaric actually.:) If we were barbaric,
we'd just dump the bodies in the town dump or something.<<<<


Isn't that what cemetaries ARE??? Sorry. Waste of great park space! <g>


>>>Funerals are ritual, stuffy though they can be. I personally prefer
memorial services, and more unique rituals, but having the body present has been
common in many cultures all over the world.
When I'm gone, my only wish is that they DON'T have a funeral. But I still
don't think "barbaric" acurrately describes them.<<<


I promise I won't have a funeral if you promise you won't come!


>>>ok,ok, I know you're pissed at him and probably inclined to use strong
words....but you know me, I just can't shut up if I disagree. <<<

Not REN! <g>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

averyschmidt

> I think funerals ARE barbaric. I don't go. And I don't make my
kids go.
> In my mind, civilized folk would have parties BEFORE they die. At
least
> that's what I do on a very regular basis---just in case I kick the
bucket suddenly,
> I'll know I just had a party last week! <BWG>
> I hate funerals. I can think of so many ways to spend that kind of
money and
> time and effort---and it'll be BEFORE someone dies!

Kelly,
I find this so interesting, and I'd like to hear more.
Can I ask what you would do if a very close family member died
suddenly? What kind of good-bye/memory/closing ritual would you
think *not* barbaric?
I sometimes think of this because I'm no longer active in the
religion I grew up with, which leaves me with a void where there
used to be very set rituals to mark life's passages- death included.

Patti

Angela

I think funerals are suppose to be for the living...as a way to have closure
and say goodbye. Not sure they always are. I don't have a lot of
experience with funerals. The first one I went to was for my boss when I
was a teenager and it freaked me out. Toby had always worn a certain color
make-up and they had it ALL wrong. She didn't look like herself and I
didn't really want to be there, only felt I *should.* Every time I think of
her, I see her in her casket with the wrong color make-up. Not a very nice
memory.

I skipped my favorite Uncle's funeral shortly after that funeral because I
wanted to remember him as he was, not in a casket. I still regret not going
because I realized after my grandmother's funeral many years later, that
funerals *can* be nice and I wish I had been there to support my cousins.
My grandmother truly looked at peace and sweet. It was nice to see her one
last time, although still a bit uncomfortable for me. I guess the part I
hate about funerals is that people always seem awkward and not sure how to
act.

My *other* grandmother wasn't a very nice person outwardly. (and maybe not
even inwardly) She didn't want a funeral and it didn't bother me that there
wasn't one because I wasn't close to her. (no one was) I didn't feel a need
to say goodbye. We had a burial and the priest said some words (which at
the time were a laugh because it was about her love touching our lives and
she was such a cold unreachable person) while close family gathered around
the grave. I don't think a funeral is a necessary thing all the time.

We just watched an old Little House on the Prairie show and it was about a
lady who hadn't seen her children in years. She had just been to a friend's
funeral and she thought it crazy that people would travel and make time to
see the dead, but not travel/make time to see the living while they could
still enjoy it. She had notices sent to her children that she had died and
the wake/funeral was the following Wednesday. They all showed up and near
the end of the wake, she presented herself after listening to all their
conversations in a black veil. It actually brought them all together after
the shock of it all. :0) All I kept thinking was how did she parent....why
did her children stay away for over 15 years. Although, the show made it
seem like she had been a nice caring mother. Not sure what my point
was....but it's true...people will make time for a funeral but not always
for the living. Unfortunately, there is often more involved in it than just
time.....all those underlying family issues play a part.

Angela
game-enthusiast@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Diane

When my MIL died recently we were at a loss. She hadn't been a member of
a church, only watched Crystal Cathedral on TV, and hadn't left
instructions for a funeral. When her dh had died she had a funeral for
him, and it nearly made me sick because it was so religious and he
hadn't been.

We ended up having a gathering--closer to a party than to a memorial
service--at her brother's house, with pictures of her up on an easel.
But I found without a funeral I had a difficult time getting a sense of
closure--a sense that the duties associated with her life were over and
it was OK to carry on with the duties associated with her passing, and
getting on with life.

:-) Diane


>Kelly,
>I find this so interesting, and I'd like to hear more.
>Can I ask what you would do if a very close family member died
>suddenly? What kind of good-bye/memory/closing ritual would you
>think *not* barbaric?
>I sometimes think of this because I'm no longer active in the
>religion I grew up with, which leaves me with a void where there
>used to be very set rituals to mark life's passages- death included.
>
>Patti
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/23/2004 9:43:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
patti.schmidt2@... writes:
Kelly,
I find this so interesting, and I'd like to hear more.
Can I ask what you would do if a very close family member died
suddenly? What kind of good-bye/memory/closing ritual would you
think *not* barbaric?
I sometimes think of this because I'm no longer active in the
religion I grew up with, which leaves me with a void where there
used to be very set rituals to mark life's passages- death included.<<<<<


My father's asked for a party----I told him again I'd rather give him a
whopping party NOW rather than then! <g> But I know my mother will go against his
wishes and have some sappy service for him. I've already committed to a huge
wing-ding at my house. We'll have his favorite wines and foods and music. I'll
be sure to have a bagpiper and all his weird friends---he has a million of them.

He wouldn't like crying and moaning 'cause he feels he's had a really fine
life---better than most. He doesn't want a sad affair----only a celebration of
his life.

He's old. But he's not dying (well, no more than the rest of us!).


Of course if one of my children died suddenly, I guess I would be catatonic
for a few weeks. Then I would celebrate his life----but I'd let the grieving
process take its course. I'd call Joanna and Lisa, first, I think. But I still
couldn't suffer through the funeral pathos---it makes it worse for me. There's
no celebration. Only grief. But at the same time, I know that I have done my
absolute best in making the time I've had with them as pleasant and sweet as I
can. I would still celebrate their lives with as much enthusiasm and revelry
as I could muster.

I think part of the problem with funerals is that they happen too soon. The
grief doesn't even have time to register---much less the joy of having known
them.

That's also one of the reasons that I have no qualms about *another* party!
<g> We like to be surrounded by family and friends. We like good food and drink
and music. We party a lot! <G> Duncan's planning one now! A luau! <G> Who
wants to come?

One of my favorite movie scenes is in _Philadelphia_ with Tom Hanks. I love
his costume party planned before he dies. What a great time----and everyone
knew what the deal was---it was a celebration of HIM. His "funeral party" was
joyful as well----though much more reserved.

As much as I love the color black, it'll probably be banned! Red will be the
color of the day---and yellow and blue and purple and pink and green and... <G>

And those damned flowers! Send them NOW! when he can enjoy them! I'm going to
do that right now! Flowers for Papa.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

When my dad died, I had recently read The American Way of Death by Jessica
Mitford. No way was I going to support the funeral industry. He died in
England, my parents were separated, and my sister was not to be found at
the time. So I agreed to have him cremated, with the ashes scattered over
there (the only option for the ashes in 1967). The lack of closure turned
out to drag the grieving process out for me. I decided to do something
different the next time.

When my first baby died, we had her cremated, then took the ashes to the
place where she had been conceived and scattered them, just her father and
I. That was better.


>I think part of the problem with funerals is that they happen too soon. The
>grief doesn't even have time to register---much less the joy of having known
>them.

When my mom died last June, we gathered the close family together a few
days later and had a celebration, looking at pictures of her and singing
favourite songs. When my sister and I were able to travel at the same time,
not till August, we went down to the States, picked up her ashes, and met
at her favourite mountain with other family and friends to scatter the
ashes. It was quite beautiful. We were happy because she was finally rid of
the body that was letting her down badly, but also sad because we were
going to miss her. It wasn't for her. It was for us, but she would have
approved. She really wasn't a party gal.
Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/23/04 9:19:09 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< I think part of the problem with funerals is that they happen too soon.
The
grief doesn't even have time to register---much less the joy of having known
them. >>

It has to do with burial.
No sense making more of it than it is. It's a blessing over the body before
it's buried.

In other cultures (Hindu, Zoroastrian) where they don't bury remains, they
have their own things to do before the body is put where it's going to be.

When my mom died I had an urge to do something. Not a funeral. I had urges,
though. I think it was an instinct to bury her, honestly.

Holly has friends with a cat whose litterbox is one of those igloo kind of
things with a little entry. The cat backs in, poops, and then scratches on the
floor in front of him, where his front half never even entered the litter.

I think maybe I felt like cats who are trying to bury their poop but don't
really have an effective routine down.

Had geography and reality been different, it would have been really good for
me to have had her two living brothers come over and help me out. She had
some friends in town who never got all together in one place, but learned by
phone.

That didn't feel right and whole.

And some of the funerals I've attended, my dad's especially, were valuable
for me because I needed to KNOW at a physical level that my dad was unable to
help me directly anymore. Not that he was hiding, or hadn't been to see me
lately, but to see him lifeless was, in a weird way, a comfort. And I was up a
notch in the world because I KNEW then that if people needed a decision or a
duty done and my dad couldn't do it now, that might fall to me as his oldest
child.

It changed me socially and emotionally.

Sandra

J. Stauffer

Has anybody watched "Family Plots" on A&E? Twisted reality type show about
a family mortuary. Pretty funny.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] funerals, was Paul Harvery's letter


>
> In a message dated 4/23/04 9:19:09 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:
>
> << I think part of the problem with funerals is that they happen too soon.
> The
> grief doesn't even have time to register---much less the joy of having
known
> them. >>
>
> It has to do with burial.
> No sense making more of it than it is. It's a blessing over the body
before
> it's buried.
>
> In other cultures (Hindu, Zoroastrian) where they don't bury remains, they
> have their own things to do before the body is put where it's going to be.
>
> When my mom died I had an urge to do something. Not a funeral. I had
urges,
> though. I think it was an instinct to bury her, honestly.
>
> Holly has friends with a cat whose litterbox is one of those igloo kind of
> things with a little entry. The cat backs in, poops, and then scratches
on the
> floor in front of him, where his front half never even entered the litter.
>
> I think maybe I felt like cats who are trying to bury their poop but don't
> really have an effective routine down.
>
> Had geography and reality been different, it would have been really good
for
> me to have had her two living brothers come over and help me out. She
had
> some friends in town who never got all together in one place, but learned
by
> phone.
>
> That didn't feel right and whole.
>
> And some of the funerals I've attended, my dad's especially, were valuable
> for me because I needed to KNOW at a physical level that my dad was unable
to
> help me directly anymore. Not that he was hiding, or hadn't been to see
me
> lately, but to see him lifeless was, in a weird way, a comfort. And I was
up a
> notch in the world because I KNEW then that if people needed a decision or
a
> duty done and my dad couldn't do it now, that might fall to me as his
oldest
> child.
>
> It changed me socially and emotionally.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

nellebelle

>>>Can I ask what you would do if a very close family member died
suddenly? What kind of good-bye/memory/closing ritual would you
think *not* barbaric?
I sometimes think of this because I'm no longer active in the
religion I grew up with, which leaves me with a void where there
used to be very set rituals to mark life's passages- death included>>>>

I'm not Kelly, but will share an experience I had.

My dad died of cancer when my oldest child was 18 mos. My mom kept him home with the aid of Hospice. During his last couple of days, all my siblings gathered at the house. Dad was on a lot of morphine, so we don't know how much he was aware. As we sat together, we talked about memories of our childhood and dad. My husband thought this was weird - he thought we shouldn't be talking in front of him as if he were dying. Guess he was still in denial about that!

After dad died, we waited several hours before calling the funeral home. We helped mom clean him up and dress him nicely and cried and comforted each other.

Dad's wishes were to be cremated. He had wanted his ashes spread on the golf course where he was a member, but that didn't work out. My brother's friend took us out on his sailboat. We sang Amazing Grace, because dad had always loved that song. We poured his ashes into Puget Sound, at the Tacoma Narrows.

Every time we drive over the Narrows bridge, we say "Hi Papa Steve". Even Jackie, who was born after he died, says this. She tells me she hung out with him in Heaven before she was born. Maybe it's her way of *remembering* the grandfather she never knew.

I think cemeteries are a waste of real estate. Although many do a nice job of landscaping, they still aren't the kind of place I like to hang out.

Probably the most, um, interesting memorial service I attended was that of a childhood friend's father. He had a terminal disease that allowed him time to plan his own ceremony. He made a videotape to be played there. At the beginning, we saw his smiling face saying something like, "Hi, I'm coming to you from the other side." I can't remember what else he said, but he was a fun, joyful person in life and the video reflected that.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>
>Dad's wishes were to be cremated. He had wanted his ashes spread on the
>golf course where he was a member, but that didn't work out. My brother's
>friend took us out on his sailboat. We sang Amazing Grace, because dad
>had always loved that song. We poured his ashes into Puget Sound, at the
>Tacoma Narrows.

Cool. Part of my mother's ashes went into Wollochet (sp?) Bay, just a
little way from the Narrows bridge. Her best friend from way back in grade
one has lived there all her life.
Tia

badolbilz

I've told everyone in my family how I'd like things to go when I die.
I'd rather no gloomy funeral, just a gathering of support for each
other. I don't believe in religions and their rules. I'd like all the
"funeral" money to go into a simple concrete bench to be placed in an
easily accessable place with this engraved on it: "Come sit and share
your good news." No name or dates, just a place for my loved ones or
anyone to come, count their blessings, and find peace.

Yesterday, out of the blue, my 6 yr old dd, Elysia, told me that if I
died she'd kill herself to be with me. I told her that of course I'd
want to be with her but I gave birth to her because I wanted her to
live. I told her I don't know what happens to our souls when we die,
but I do believe we can stay if we choose to be close to our families.
I told her that and I believe it.

My girls like to visit cemetaries. We talk about the people. They want
to know which stones were for children. I told them about the secluded
bench I wanted and we speculated about what if your soul stays near it's
body and then wouldn't it be better to be in a cemetary so you'd have
lots of company.

I think it's good to talk with them about death and how it has its
purpose and that it's a good thing. It will touch their lives and how
it makes them feel will be greatly affected by their perceptions and
beliefs of what death is. I'd like them to see it as a magical mystery,
an adventure. Of course there is sadness in parting, but sadness, in
the right light can be a powerful, beautiful emotion that can enrich all
further relationships.

My oldest dd who's going on 8, Aislinn, has realized that war and
disease do help control the population.

And now I read in the news about the advances in cloning and that
scientists have been able to reproduce mice from two females. So
perhaps eventually, Me and Myself and our daughter, I, can sit
peacefully on my memorial bench and speculate about life.

Heidi

Sylvia Toyama

That reminds me of the story my Mom tells about my paternal grandfather and his death. Grandad was dying from lung cancer. He'd been diagnosed 4 yrs earlier, had 2 surgeries and had been bedridden for most of 2 years. He knew he was dying, and so did everyone else around him, but no one would let him talk about it. He complained to my Mom (his daughter in law) that when he tried to say 'after I die' his wife would shush him, saying you're not going to die. His adult sons and daughter wouldn't discuss it; no one allowed him to talk of his death to his 13 and 16 yo sons.

When my parents came to visit shortly before he died, my Mom spent hours with him and was the only one with whom he could discuss his death. She'd lost her Dad very suddenly only 2 yrs before (he was 42) and knew how much she wished she'd seen his death coming. She's still sad and angry all these years later (that was in 1965) at how his family treated him when he was dying. He felt so lonely and afraid in those months and no one would let him make any plans for what came next, no one would even grieve with him. He was only 54 years old and did all that worrying by himself.

Years later, when my grandma (Mom's mom) was dying, it was much different. Her daughters were with her, talking and remembering stories. They called her doctor and he contacted the hospice folks to come out and stay with them during the details afterwards. I missed the funeral because we were vacationing in Hawaii when she died -- I'd had known it would happen then, but she insisted we go anyway. She said, 'just think of me while you're there, and it will be like I went too.' I knew then that she knew she wouldn't get to see me again.

My point being, that if you know someone is dying, acknowledge it. Let them talk about it; your fears and discomfort just add more burden for them, and it's not loving or fair.

Syl


***

My husband thought this was weird - he thought we shouldn't be talking in front of him as if he were dying. Guess he was still in denial about that!



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mel

Hi All,

I'm hoping for some input about taking young children to funerals. It is very likely that we will have a funeral to attend in the near future. The funeral will be for an elderly relative that the boys have a rapport with.

For myself, I have been attending funerals since I was probably a toddler. I come from a large family and funerals took place at least once a year. I don't recall having a hard time dealing with any of the ceremonies.

My husband comes from a different background where the kids have always been kept out of the funeral homes. Here is one area where we don't quite see eye-to-eye.

I feel that death is just a natural part of life and if we approach it in a calm manner, we are modelling a healthy way to deal with closure and even grief. I suppose it helps to know that I lost my dad tragically, so I have deeply grieved in my life. My husband has never experienced a close loss yet. Our boys are 5 & 7 years old. We have had dialogues about death and especially about my dad.

I have spoken to the boys about the upcoming death just so they are not surprised. I suppose I want to protect them from being blindsided by the inevitable news to come. They took the news very calmly, rather well actually. Am I exposing them to something harmful? Do you think there is more potential damage to be done by keeping them from saying their final goodbye?

Thanks for any ideas.

Mel

Sandra Dodd

-=-. Am I exposing them to something harmful? -=-

I don't think so at all.

-=-Do you think there is more potential damage to be done by keeping
them from saying their final goodbye? -=-

Absolutely.

But what if you ask the kids what they want to do? Maybe one wants to
go and one doesn't.

You might find some online grief counselling sites with some
discussion one way or the other.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Collier

--- In [email protected], "Mel" <beensclan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I'm hoping for some input about taking young children to funerals. It is very likely that we will have a funeral to attend in the near future. The funeral will be for an elderly relative that the boys have a rapport with.
>
> For myself, I have been attending funerals since I was probably a toddler. I come from a large family and funerals took place at least once a year. I don't recall having a hard time dealing with any of the ceremonies.
>
> My husband comes from a different background where the kids have always been kept out of the funeral homes. Here is one area where we don't quite see eye-to-eye.
>
> I feel that death is just a natural part of life and if we approach it in a calm manner, we are modelling a healthy way to deal with closure and even grief. I suppose it helps to know that I lost my dad tragically, so I have deeply grieved in my life. My husband has never experienced a close loss yet. Our boys are 5 & 7 years old. We have had dialogues about death and especially about my dad.
>
> I have spoken to the boys about the upcoming death just so they are not surprised. I suppose I want to protect them from being blindsided by the inevitable news to come. They took the news very calmly, rather well actually. Am I exposing them to something harmful? Do you think there is more potential damage to be done by keeping them from saying their final goodbye?
>
> Thanks for any ideas.
>
> Mel
>


My son was at my mother's funeral when he was three. Although one or two other people objected to his unwillingness to sit still and be quiet, my wife and I wanted him there, and the minister was happy to oblige. It felt like the right thing to do. He didn't know his grandma that well but he knew who she was. His sister was 13 at the time, so choosing to attend was a decision she could make for herself. My son can vaguely recall the experience and seems perfectly okay about it. When my wife's mother, who had been living with us for more than four years, died in May, my son was present at the moment of death. That was a first for both of us, and my wife. My daughter wasn't there because she lives elsewhere now but she had visited only three days previously and I'm glad she did. We had an open coffin vigil at our house the night before the church service and cremation, as is customary in Ireland where my wife is from. For her, that was very important.

Bob

[email protected]

"I'm hoping for some input about taking young children to funerals. It is very likely that we will have a funeral to attend in the near future. The funeral will be for an elderly relative that the boys have a rapport with."  Mel



I have very definite opinions on this.  I believe most children would benefit from attending funerals for elderly family members.  Death is part of the human experience.  However, I was made to attend the funeral of my 5-year old friend (I was age 5 as well), with the whole viewing experience.  It tainted my view of life for a very long time.  Seeing my little friend like that took the life out of me.  It made me think, "What's the point?  I'm just going to die anyway."  It's too close to home for a child to see their child friends like that.  But I also know that every child is different, and parents need to discern these things based on their child's uniqueness.  It wasn't right for me.  Perhaps other children would not have had these damaging effects.



So, this is not a decision to be taken lightly.  Great question!



Diana Knight


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-However, I was made to attend the funeral of ...-=-

I don't think anyone's recommending that children be taken to a
funeral against their will, or made to do anything.

Maybe a babysitter could be hired to take the kids outside if they are
too restless or uncomfortable, and to bring them back in if they want
to try some more. Maybe.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

swoopymom

I think that, at 5 and 7, your children are old enough to talk about whether or not they would like to go. We've always been very gentle but matter-of-fact about death being a part of life, and have had several fish and gerbils die in our own household, for whom we've held funerals, cried, said goodbye, and moved on (sometimes buying a new pet within hours of the last ones' funeral - I always leave it up to the kids).

When my husband's great-uncle died two years ago (with whom my kids had a relationship), they both went to the wake and funeral, and I took it as my responsibility to be 100% attentive to their needs. But other family members were happy to have them there, and they helped bring much levity to the luncheon afterwards. When a friend of mine died tragically last year, they both chose not to attend, and stayed with their grandmother while my husband and I attended services.

I've realized that my children have a good idea of how I'm feeling, whether or not I think I'm showing it, so I feel that it is much healthier for them and for their trust in me to be honest about big issues like death, and to allow them to be a part of the process as much as possible. The rhythm and regularity of a funeral can be quite soothing and healing, and it is good to give children as much of a chance to say goodbye as adults. They feel the loss as much as we do, keeping them out of process won't do them any favors, and may make it all much harder to understand and bear.

peace,
Davana


-



-- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-However, I was made to attend the funeral of ...-=-
>
> I don't think anyone's recommending that children be taken to a
> funeral against their will, or made to do anything.
>
> Maybe a babysitter could be hired to take the kids outside if they are
> too restless or uncomfortable, and to bring them back in if they want
> to try some more. Maybe.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

carnationsgalore

> I'm hoping for some input about taking young children to funerals.

My advice would be to have a couple of plans of action. If the boys understand what is taking place, they should have the right to choose. If they do not want to go, help them find someone to stay with if you need to go.

Will this funeral be a viewing? If so, I think you should explain to the boys in a different room from the deceased. Don't push them to see the deceased to say final goodbyes. When I was 11 yrs. old, I was forced to stand beside the coffin and view my grandfather. My family thought they were creating a lovely memory for me. I went through it again when my father died when I was 21. Both times I cried because they were two of most horrid things I had ever seen in my life. Instead, I would have been fine if I could have stood back at what I considered a safe distance. I didn't need to stand next a lifeless body to say goodbye. Listen to your boys and help them stay in their comfort zone. If they begin something, let them know it's okay to change their minds. They may decide not to attend once they get to the place. Or they might go near the coffin and change their minds when they see the body.

Beth

Jenny Cyphers

>>>I have spoken to the boys about the upcoming death just so they are not surprised. I suppose I want to protect them from being blindsided by the inevitable news to come. They took the news very calmly, rather well actually. Am I exposing them to something harmful? Do you think there is more potential damage to be done by keeping them from saying their final goodbye? >>>







I really think it should be up to the kids.  One of the worst things I've seen a parent do in this regard was to prevent a child from going to a funeral that really wanted to go.  It happened to Chamille's longest time friend when she was 7 or 8.  She was the only person there when her grandma died on a street bench outside of her apartment.  This little girl realized what had happened, didn't freak out, and found a way to get back into the locked apartment to call her dad.  Her dad wouldn't let her go to the funeral because he thought she couldn't handle it.  To this day, she talks about how she never got to say "good bye", she's 15.

Kids know more than we think they do sometimes, and sometimes we misinterpret what they are feeling about things like death. 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

andrea.trombley

I have taken my 2 boys (ages 9 and 7)to 3 funerals in the past 4 years, all great-grandparents, and it has gone well. One thing I have noticed is the joy they bring to the gathering for the people who really are sad and upset. To see these young great-grandchildren running around full of life, brings smiles, memories, continuation of life to the setting.

In all instances, the boys knew where we were going and why, as we had discussed the death ahead of time (like you said you have done with your children), and they did not object at all.

Besst wishes with your decision,
Andrea



> I have spoken to the boys about the upcoming death just so they are not surprised. I suppose I want to protect them from being blindsided by the inevitable news to come. They took the news very calmly, rather well actually. Am I exposing them to something harmful? Do you think there is more potential damage to be done by keeping them from saying their final goodbye?
>
> Thanks for any ideas.
>
> Mel
>

Mel

>
> I think funerals are suppose to be for the living...as a way to have closure
> and say goodbye. Not sure they always are. .
>
> Angela
> game-enthusiast@...

This particular funeral coming up for us is for a lady who is a real vibrant soul. She has always loved life and is always the first to joke around and bring happiness into a room. Her daughter, my cousin, plans to make the funeral more a celebration of my Auntie's life. Hopefully it will be a funeral for the living.

I like the ideas of giving the boys a choice to go and also having someone there just for them in case they feel they need to bail. I also agree that children know more about death and life than most give them credit for. I have seen with my sons that each has their own inner map. They already have beliefs about their spirituality. We have a lot of dialogue about that too and I find it fascinating. My youngest son has told me his views on the afterlife and basically has in his special way a reincarnationist lense on life. He talks so candidly about his views that I ended up researching to learn more. I discovered the writings of the ancient mystics. Thanks to Nick, many questions I've grappled with since I can remember have been answered...and with peace.

Thanks all for your thoughts and responces

Mel

Jay Ford

I think that death is a natural part of life, and approaching it the same way we approach everything else: with real information.

My MIL died when my kids were 7 & 4.  Both were close to their grandmother and both wanted to go to the funeral.  They didn't go to the wake the night before, but attended the private family viewing and the church service the next day as well as the cemetery.  For both it was a positive experience. 

A few years later they attended my stepfather's funeral, who they were NOT close to, to support their grandmother.  Having an earlier funeral experience helped.  They were the only kids there.


Jay




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah

Sadly, we lost my Grandma and a very good friend who was almost two in the last two years.  Eva, my six year old, wanted to be a part of everything both times.  Sophia, my ten year old, opted to skip some of the services in each instance.  Both girls had the choice both times, and both of them handled the deaths and funerals in ways that were best for them.  We tried our hardest to give them choices and support and love.
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

Holly went with me to the funeral of the father of one of my childhood
friends. That was a good intro funeral, because it wasn't her grief.
She was nine. There were many of my friends and relatives there,
some of whom she knew.

Later she went to a fancy high mass funeral with bishops and several
priests, for the mother of another friend of mine (this friend she
knew too). Holly's interested in ceremonies (weddings and such) so I
figured she might be interested in seeing a full-house, all-out formal
funeral.

She was at one funeral where she knew the parents and siblings and
nieces and nephews and son of the man who had died. That's the
closest she's come to it being someone close to her--she knew the
whole family.

Maybe, though it sounds a little morbid, it would help to take them to
a funeral of someone they don't even know, slip in the back a while,
and let them get a feel for the mood of a funeral. If the viewing
is a concern, maybe go to a funeral home and let them see someone they
don't even know, in a coffin. Do it when no one else is around, I'd
say, if you opt for viewing strangers. You might even ask a funeral
director to talk to them about the range of kinds of funerals, how
some are small and quiet and some are big and have music and lots of
eulogies.

Maybe find some movies with funerals. I'm not thinking of anything
somber at the moment, just silly stuff. Point out to them that a
graveside service is separate, usually. Funerals or memorials are
inside a building. Burials are optional later (or not even optional;
sometimes there's no interment, or it's not public).

If they're still interested at that point, maybe go to a cemetery and
look around, or look up info about customs in various time and places,
about what's done with bodies in different parts of the world. Even
in the same country, same culture, burials can't always be the same.
Compare Alaska in the winter with New Orleans anytime (or with Alaska
in the summer).

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

I can't get those links to play, but maybe it's my internet today.

Zoolander
( the mispronunciation of "eulogy" is the main point, I think)

Last Action Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0_FYrnnbz0

Paper Moon

Maybe kids in families where there's never been a funeral might not
mind thinking about funerals in advance, and funny and silly funeral
scenes might not hurt.

Four Weddings and a Funeral (Church of England, not a funny scene, but
not not horribly sad, either; gay couple people hadn't known to have
been a couple before)

Love Actually has a funeral and shows a current trend in the U.K.,
which is playing popular music at funerals. The sad part is that the
actor's real wife died recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJbXSiuRdE

I have vague memories of lots of funerals or burials in western
movies. (The scenes sometimes screw up a hymn, which triggers my
irritation at how much simpler it would've been not to screw it up, or
it's a burial in the desert. Wagon-train movies; burials at the side
of the trail?)

Tom Sawyer (sneaking in on his own funeral)

TV shows... was it Friends when someone dropped a cellphone in a casket?

Jenny Cyphers

>>>Maybe kids in families where there's never been a funeral might not
mind thinking about funerals in advance, and funny and silly funeral
scenes might not hurt.>>>

Or even sad ones like My Girl. That one always makes me cry, but it's a beautiful movie, a good coming of age movie, and deep friendship movie, that's all about funerals and death and love.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kim Dawkins

This one's a British comedy, very funny, but probably not appropriate
for young children (rated R).

Death at a Funeral

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0795368/

Kim

On Sep 21, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> I can't get those links to play, but maybe it's my internet today.
>
> Zoolander
> ( the mispronunciation of "eulogy" is the main point, I think)
>
> Last Action Hero
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0_FYrnnbz0
>
> Paper Moon
>
> Maybe kids in families where there's never been a funeral might not
> mind thinking about funerals in advance, and funny and silly funeral
> scenes might not hurt.
>
> Four Weddings and a Funeral (Church of England, not a funny scene, but
> not not horribly sad, either; gay couple people hadn't known to have
> been a couple before)
>
> Love Actually has a funeral and shows a current trend in the U.K.,
> which is playing popular music at funerals. The sad part is that the
> actor's real wife died recently.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJbXSiuRdE
>
> I have vague memories of lots of funerals or burials in western
> movies. (The scenes sometimes screw up a hymn, which triggers my
> irritation at how much simpler it would've been not to screw it up, or
> it's a burial in the desert. Wagon-train movies; burials at the side
> of the trail?)
>
> Tom Sawyer (sneaking in on his own funeral)
>
> TV shows... was it Friends when someone dropped a cellphone in a
> casket?
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

memismommy

>
> > Maybe kids in families where there's never been a funeral might not
> > mind thinking about funerals in advance, and funny and silly funeral
> > scenes might not hurt.

>
In the first season of Little House on the Prairie, a vibrant Irishwoman stages her own wake, because her best friend has died, lonely for her children, and her own won't visit. She walks out in the middle, and her children are enraged until she gives them a piece of her mind...not only is death handled with a lot of spirit, here, but there's something to be learned about valuing the living....

I was impressed by it when I was a girl. My children, 8 and 5, are now, and it doesn't seem to bother them (there isn't a body for viewing, though.)

Shan