Teenaged Boys and Sexuality
Tia Leschke
I'm looking for other people's thoughts on this issue. I've got a lad with
raging hormones, and he's been frequenting porn sites on the internet. I'm
not sure how to deal with it. His older brother didn't have the internet
and contented himself with pictures of women in underwear in advertising
flyers. (At least that's what his girlfriend at one time was upset about.)
I don't have a problem with him getting his jollies from looking at
pictures. At least I don't think so. But I have to admit that some of
what he's been looking at really grosses me out. (He doesn't realize that
the pictures he's been looking at go into a temp file.) The knowledge that
the women in those pictures likely weren't entirely willing participants
bothers me as well. Sometimes I feel like asking him what it would take to
bare his privates on the internet for everyone who wants to to look at. I
may well do that. He's very modest.
He doesn't know that I'm aware of his recent excursions. We talked about
it when I discovered it a few months ago. At the time, he was using the
computer that's provided by the school program we use, and they're supposed
to be quite strict about no porn or hate sites. (They say they can find
out, but I didn't really believe it before, and they haven't said anything
yet.) Now he's using our own computer, so I don't have that reason to say
he isn't allowed.
I'm sort of inclined to offer him some kind of erotic materials, but I
don't really know what. The only books that come to mind are The Joy of
Sex and The Kama Sutra, but I don't know how interesting or appropriate
they'd be. It's been a long time since I looked at either one. There's
Playboy, which I'm not crazy about, but it's a lot better than the porn
sites. And they really do have some good articles. At least they did 30
years ago. <g>
There are certainly good novels that have some good sex scenes in them,
that might satisfy some curiosity and hormonal urges. I can remember
marking certain pages in novels I read as a teen. The problem is, he can't
read well enough, and I'm not comfortable reading sex scenes aloud to my
teenaged son.
How have some of you with older kids handled this?
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
raging hormones, and he's been frequenting porn sites on the internet. I'm
not sure how to deal with it. His older brother didn't have the internet
and contented himself with pictures of women in underwear in advertising
flyers. (At least that's what his girlfriend at one time was upset about.)
I don't have a problem with him getting his jollies from looking at
pictures. At least I don't think so. But I have to admit that some of
what he's been looking at really grosses me out. (He doesn't realize that
the pictures he's been looking at go into a temp file.) The knowledge that
the women in those pictures likely weren't entirely willing participants
bothers me as well. Sometimes I feel like asking him what it would take to
bare his privates on the internet for everyone who wants to to look at. I
may well do that. He's very modest.
He doesn't know that I'm aware of his recent excursions. We talked about
it when I discovered it a few months ago. At the time, he was using the
computer that's provided by the school program we use, and they're supposed
to be quite strict about no porn or hate sites. (They say they can find
out, but I didn't really believe it before, and they haven't said anything
yet.) Now he's using our own computer, so I don't have that reason to say
he isn't allowed.
I'm sort of inclined to offer him some kind of erotic materials, but I
don't really know what. The only books that come to mind are The Joy of
Sex and The Kama Sutra, but I don't know how interesting or appropriate
they'd be. It's been a long time since I looked at either one. There's
Playboy, which I'm not crazy about, but it's a lot better than the porn
sites. And they really do have some good articles. At least they did 30
years ago. <g>
There are certainly good novels that have some good sex scenes in them,
that might satisfy some curiosity and hormonal urges. I can remember
marking certain pages in novels I read as a teen. The problem is, he can't
read well enough, and I'm not comfortable reading sex scenes aloud to my
teenaged son.
How have some of you with older kids handled this?
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Nancy Wooton
on 12/30/01 2:35 PM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:
It worked with my son -- I told him he could get the book, but I wasn't
interested in it and would not read it aloud. Of course, my son was six,
and the book was a "Goosebumps."
If your son is under 18, isn't porn illegal? You might want to find out
what the penalties are for providing it to him. Then again, having your
*mom* sit and look at porn with you would probably put any kid off it
forever. Make it part of the curriculum, test him on it, have him give an
oral report... Give him stickers if he does well! That would cure him.
<g>
Nancy
> There are certainly good novels that have some good sex scenes in them,A dirty book might be the motivation he needs to improve his reading skills.
> that might satisfy some curiosity and hormonal urges. I can remember
> marking certain pages in novels I read as a teen. The problem is, he can't
> read well enough, and I'm not comfortable reading sex scenes aloud to my
> teenaged son.
It worked with my son -- I told him he could get the book, but I wasn't
interested in it and would not read it aloud. Of course, my son was six,
and the book was a "Goosebumps."
If your son is under 18, isn't porn illegal? You might want to find out
what the penalties are for providing it to him. Then again, having your
*mom* sit and look at porn with you would probably put any kid off it
forever. Make it part of the curriculum, test him on it, have him give an
oral report... Give him stickers if he does well! That would cure him.
<g>
Nancy
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/30/01 3:28:07 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< There are certainly good novels that have some good sex scenes in them,
that might satisfy some curiosity and hormonal urges. >>
Women do words, guys do pictures (generally speaking). There are exceptions.
I doubt novels would do it for him.
<<How have some of you with older kids handled this?>>
My boys have both looked at some sites.
Saying "don't" seems to make it worse, not better, judging from the stories
of a couple of other families (not homeschoolers in the area), BUT, in one
case the kid had run up a big phonebill somehow or credit card bill or
something--$400. The dad had huge fits, it resulted in the boy going and
living with his mom, and then with another family altogether. There were
other issues there, but that's my most recent (three weeks ago) story of
disasterous response by a parent.
Maybe he's just bored on the internet and can't think of other, better places.
Maybe you could send him more links of cooler stuff to look at. Things you
know he'd be interested in. Don't say "Look at his instead of the smut you
usually look at," just give him options.
Occasionally I come in and can't get to yahoogroups because "cookies have
been disabled." I assume (perhaps wrongly, but I don't want to ask) that one
of my boys went somewhere they didn't want me to know about. I could be
wrong. I've found evidence of peeks at free sites a couple of times,
probably from both of them, but not often, at all.
I sent Marty and Kirby a sex site once--a sex education and contraception
question and answer site. Neither one said a word, but I bet they looked.
Kirby has, in his bathroom, one cosmopolitan and one printed out text story
from the internet--a fan story with sex. I leave them where I found them and
don't make a deal about it.
I let them have privacy on the computer. They have passwords I don't know,
and I don't very often use the pull-down to see what sites the person before
me saw.
Sandra
<< There are certainly good novels that have some good sex scenes in them,
that might satisfy some curiosity and hormonal urges. >>
Women do words, guys do pictures (generally speaking). There are exceptions.
I doubt novels would do it for him.
<<How have some of you with older kids handled this?>>
My boys have both looked at some sites.
Saying "don't" seems to make it worse, not better, judging from the stories
of a couple of other families (not homeschoolers in the area), BUT, in one
case the kid had run up a big phonebill somehow or credit card bill or
something--$400. The dad had huge fits, it resulted in the boy going and
living with his mom, and then with another family altogether. There were
other issues there, but that's my most recent (three weeks ago) story of
disasterous response by a parent.
Maybe he's just bored on the internet and can't think of other, better places.
Maybe you could send him more links of cooler stuff to look at. Things you
know he'd be interested in. Don't say "Look at his instead of the smut you
usually look at," just give him options.
Occasionally I come in and can't get to yahoogroups because "cookies have
been disabled." I assume (perhaps wrongly, but I don't want to ask) that one
of my boys went somewhere they didn't want me to know about. I could be
wrong. I've found evidence of peeks at free sites a couple of times,
probably from both of them, but not often, at all.
I sent Marty and Kirby a sex site once--a sex education and contraception
question and answer site. Neither one said a word, but I bet they looked.
Kirby has, in his bathroom, one cosmopolitan and one printed out text story
from the internet--a fan story with sex. I leave them where I found them and
don't make a deal about it.
I let them have privacy on the computer. They have passwords I don't know,
and I don't very often use the pull-down to see what sites the person before
me saw.
Sandra
Tia Leschke
>Wasn't Catcher in the Rye a bit hit with teenaged boys at one time? My son
>
><< There are certainly good novels that have some good sex scenes in them,
>that might satisfy some curiosity and hormonal urges. >>
>
>Women do words, guys do pictures (generally speaking). There are exceptions.
> I doubt novels would do it for him.
outlaw says that it was Penthouse Forum that did it for him. Reading the
fantasies let him make his own pictures in his head.
>Maybe he's just bored on the internet and can't think of other, better places.He looks late at night, after we're in bed. I'm assuming that he uses them
to masturbate. Though there's something about those *long* showers he
takes......
>Maybe you could send him more links of cooler stuff to look at. Things youMostly he looks at mountain biking sites. I think he can find them better
>know he'd be interested in. Don't say "Look at his instead of the smut you
>usually look at," just give him options.
than I can. <g>
>I sent Marty and Kirby a sex site once--a sex education and contraceptionStill got the addy?
>question and answer site. Neither one said a word, but I bet they looked.
>Kirby has, in his bathroom, one cosmopolitan and one printed out text storyThat's how I would handle books and magazines. I found a sex education
>from the internet--a fan story with sex. I leave them where I found them and
>don't make a deal about it.
question and answer book at the library and handed it to him. It's moved
around his room a couple of times, so I assume he's reading it. I thought
it would be easier for him to just look for questions he wanted answers to
and read them, rather than reading a whole book.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Tia Leschke
>Well, I certainly had that thought in mind. <g>
>A dirty book might be the motivation he needs to improve his reading skills.
>If your son is under 18, isn't porn illegal? You might want to find outThe whole point is that I'd like to try to nudge away from porn and towards
>what the penalties are for providing it to him.
erotica. The only way I could be said to be providing it now is by not
using something like Net Nanny.
>Then again, having yourReminds me of when my daughter was in grade 7 and they had a parents open
>*mom* sit and look at porn with you would probably put any kid off it
>forever. Make it part of the curriculum, test him on it, have him give an
>oral report... Give him stickers if he does well! That would cure him.
house day. I arrived with Lars in the backpack and stood dutifully at the
back of the class with the other parents. What were they studying that
day? Sex education. Did any of the kids learn anything or have their
important questions answered while their parents were standing back
there? Not very likely.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
KT
I was forced into temporary employment for a while when my middle son
was 14. He ended up being in charge of our littlest one for about a
week while dh and I both worked before I quit. I was *really* ready to
quit and during that week I got this really strong urge to just get out
of that job and go home, and so I did.
When I got home, my son was in my office with the door shut. I put my
hand on the knob and found it locked. I said, knowing what he was
doing, "Why is the door locked?" And he said in the weakest, most
guilty voice imaginable, "The door's locked? I don't know why it's
locked."
Needless to say he opened the door and I swept him aside and found that
crap on the screen. He knew it was wrong, or he wouldn't have locked
the door.
I spoke about it with some dear friends of mine and one of them offered
me some reading for him about how pornography damages women, and I took
her up on it. I made him read it and tell me what he learned, in
detail. We talked about it and discussed it until I was blue in the
face. I was angry and hurt and appalled, but not as appalled as the
time not long after that I heard him use the term "doggy punch". (It
makes me sick to type it.) Then he saw the color drain from my face and
the nausea rise in my throat when I made him explain to me what it
means. I think it was *THEN* that he finally realized that I was
**SERIOUS** about this issue, that I wouldn't allow it in my house and
that he had just better get over it.
I think pornography is a disgrace and subjugates women, and being blase
about it with my son is shirking my responsibility to my future
daughter-in-law and granddaughters. I also think teenage boys can have
normal, healthy sexual impulses and desires without degrading other
people.
I'm no prude, but how can I look myself in the mirror if I raise a son
who thinks "that" term is humorous?
Tuck, strongly opinionated on this subject
was 14. He ended up being in charge of our littlest one for about a
week while dh and I both worked before I quit. I was *really* ready to
quit and during that week I got this really strong urge to just get out
of that job and go home, and so I did.
When I got home, my son was in my office with the door shut. I put my
hand on the knob and found it locked. I said, knowing what he was
doing, "Why is the door locked?" And he said in the weakest, most
guilty voice imaginable, "The door's locked? I don't know why it's
locked."
Needless to say he opened the door and I swept him aside and found that
crap on the screen. He knew it was wrong, or he wouldn't have locked
the door.
I spoke about it with some dear friends of mine and one of them offered
me some reading for him about how pornography damages women, and I took
her up on it. I made him read it and tell me what he learned, in
detail. We talked about it and discussed it until I was blue in the
face. I was angry and hurt and appalled, but not as appalled as the
time not long after that I heard him use the term "doggy punch". (It
makes me sick to type it.) Then he saw the color drain from my face and
the nausea rise in my throat when I made him explain to me what it
means. I think it was *THEN* that he finally realized that I was
**SERIOUS** about this issue, that I wouldn't allow it in my house and
that he had just better get over it.
I think pornography is a disgrace and subjugates women, and being blase
about it with my son is shirking my responsibility to my future
daughter-in-law and granddaughters. I also think teenage boys can have
normal, healthy sexual impulses and desires without degrading other
people.
I'm no prude, but how can I look myself in the mirror if I raise a son
who thinks "that" term is humorous?
Tuck, strongly opinionated on this subject
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/30/01 9:16:29 PM, Tuck@... writes:
<< I think pornography is a disgrace and subjugates women, and being blase
about it with my son is shirking my responsibility to my future
daughter-in-law and granddaughters. I also think teenage boys can have
normal, healthy sexual impulses and desires without degrading other
people. >>
*nods*
Pornography celebrates the absence of connection with self in sexuality --
it's lowest common denominator expression of sexuality. I'm tired of
invitations to view teens having sex with animals arriving in my email box.
A lot of really low life stuff is out there, and I'm not interested in
reviewing it.
I'm fine discussing sexuality and healthy expression with my children. I
don't discuss it in purely physical terms -- I weave in emotional benefits
and costs, timing and responsibility. Our family situation has required a
lot of outside the box discussion. And yet, I think it's possible to
unschool, to value freedom of choice, without accepting everything as
relevant and appropriate and healthy. Pornography has no place in this home.
Sharon
<< I think pornography is a disgrace and subjugates women, and being blase
about it with my son is shirking my responsibility to my future
daughter-in-law and granddaughters. I also think teenage boys can have
normal, healthy sexual impulses and desires without degrading other
people. >>
*nods*
Pornography celebrates the absence of connection with self in sexuality --
it's lowest common denominator expression of sexuality. I'm tired of
invitations to view teens having sex with animals arriving in my email box.
A lot of really low life stuff is out there, and I'm not interested in
reviewing it.
I'm fine discussing sexuality and healthy expression with my children. I
don't discuss it in purely physical terms -- I weave in emotional benefits
and costs, timing and responsibility. Our family situation has required a
lot of outside the box discussion. And yet, I think it's possible to
unschool, to value freedom of choice, without accepting everything as
relevant and appropriate and healthy. Pornography has no place in this home.
Sharon
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/30/01 10:02:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
sharonve@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sharonve@... writes:
> Pornography has no place in this home. <<<Candace
>
> I agree too. I know it is normal to be curious but I hate pornography. And
> I hate how the makers/promotors of porno shove it in our faces by having it
> pop up on the net, in our email, redirecting sites, etc. It easy to find if
> a person wants it so why try to trick us into viewing it. The whole
> business disgusts me. As of yet my boys have shown no interest. I imagine
> that it will happen. Too bad the dang stuff is so easy to access. I mean,
> they cannot buy porno in a book shop under 18, it should be the same on the
> net.
>
> Just thinking aloud
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/30/01 8:02:51 PM, sharonve@... writes:
<< I'm tired of
invitations to view teens having sex with animals arriving in my email box.
But that doesn't mean I'm going to throw away the erotica I own.
<<I'm fine discussing sexuality and healthy expression with my children. I
don't discuss it in purely physical terms -- I weave in emotional benefits
and costs, timing and responsibility. >>
Same here.
But one doesn't have to (and cannot) supplant the other. And it's not like
there are just two choices, either--totally fantasy-free clean and pure
sexual live within marriage, and farm-grunting smut.
There's as full a range in sexuality, the drawings and writings, poetry,
music, novels, movies, self-help, therapy, history, future, ethics, biology,
etc., as there is in any other area. To limit thought or exploration because
some of it is vile is to create it all vile.
Sandra
<< I'm tired of
invitations to view teens having sex with animals arriving in my email box.
>>Me too.
But that doesn't mean I'm going to throw away the erotica I own.
<<I'm fine discussing sexuality and healthy expression with my children. I
don't discuss it in purely physical terms -- I weave in emotional benefits
and costs, timing and responsibility. >>
Same here.
But one doesn't have to (and cannot) supplant the other. And it's not like
there are just two choices, either--totally fantasy-free clean and pure
sexual live within marriage, and farm-grunting smut.
There's as full a range in sexuality, the drawings and writings, poetry,
music, novels, movies, self-help, therapy, history, future, ethics, biology,
etc., as there is in any other area. To limit thought or exploration because
some of it is vile is to create it all vile.
Sandra
Jorgen & Ann
> I agree too. I know it is normal to be curious but I hate pornography. AndThis is just a thought and not exactly about pornography per se, but one way to share the reality of sex work might be to spend time at a shelter or dining facility. I worked at a shelter for years, and met sex workers/prostitutes young and old, male and female, as well as lots of other really interesting people (kids too). In many places I'd guess you could do some sort of work with your child/children or they could volunteer on their own, just depends. My children often came with me to work.
> I hate how the makers/promotors of porno shove it in our faces by having it
> pop up on the net, in our email, redirecting sites, etc. It easy to find if
> a person wants it so why try to trick us into viewing it. The whole
> business disgusts me.
Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/31/01 12:47:20 AM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< There's as full a range in sexuality, the drawings and writings, poetry,
music, novels, movies, self-help, therapy, history, future, ethics, biology,
etc., as there is in any other area. To limit thought or exploration because
some of it is vile is to create it all vile. >>
Sure. But the question referred to online pornography sites, which do not,
typically, involve thoughtful or lovely explorations of sexuality. We're not
talking poetry or cultural sensitivities -- we're talking sleaze.
Explicitly denying exploration of the vile stuff does not push all material
exploring sexuality into the vile category. Nor does a healthy knowledge of
sexuality need to include it, to be well rounded.
Sharon
<< There's as full a range in sexuality, the drawings and writings, poetry,
music, novels, movies, self-help, therapy, history, future, ethics, biology,
etc., as there is in any other area. To limit thought or exploration because
some of it is vile is to create it all vile. >>
Sure. But the question referred to online pornography sites, which do not,
typically, involve thoughtful or lovely explorations of sexuality. We're not
talking poetry or cultural sensitivities -- we're talking sleaze.
Explicitly denying exploration of the vile stuff does not push all material
exploring sexuality into the vile category. Nor does a healthy knowledge of
sexuality need to include it, to be well rounded.
Sharon
Tia Leschke
>My question actually involved helping my son find *alternatives* to porn.
><< There's as full a range in sexuality, the drawings and writings, poetry,
>music, novels, movies, self-help, therapy, history, future, ethics, biology,
>etc., as there is in any other area. To limit thought or exploration because
>some of it is vile is to create it all vile. >>
>
>Sure. But the question referred to online pornography sites, which do not,
>typically, involve thoughtful or lovely explorations of sexuality. We're not
>talking poetry or cultural sensitivities -- we're talking sleaze.
>Explicitly denying exploration of the vile stuff does not push all materialBut I think denying it without offering alternatives will just make it more
>exploring sexuality into the vile category. Nor does a healthy knowledge of
>sexuality need to include it, to be well rounded.
desireable. I'd prefer not to deny it, but just offer alternatives.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
Quality Paperback Books (www.qpb.com) regularly offers erotica. Not too
nasty at all, usually.
There is a site for women out of England, called Cliterati. Very short
stories. Donated by readers.
There is apparently a genre of Japanese animation that has sexual themes.
And then there are the manga (I remembered the word!) of those stories. The
anime club Kirby's been in for over a year never watches those, as it was
formed by a fundamentalist Christian and that's written into the bylaws.
[==wait, cancel that recommendation. I just asked Kirby. He said "The
hen-tai is much more vile than real porn. " He recommends against that--that
it's gross fantasy stuff with tentacle rape and stuff. And you have to be
21. And even then it's too gross, says Kirby.]
Kirby and I think maybe if you live where there's a used magazine, used
bookstore where you can get Playboys from different decades that might be
good. Or just used Playboys (garage sales, sometimes). Or new mom-bought.
There really is a fair amount of stuff to read, usually a really good
interview, and then pictures of women who wanted to be in there. Sometimes
famous women (sometimes later-famous women).
I agree that just saying no is like telling the ocean to be still. And
saying "Not in MY house" is the beginning of dishonesty or moving out, or
both.
I don't want my boys lying to me. So far we can talk about things like this,
and if I draw the line in a place they don't accept, we're no longer sharing
common lives.
Feminist arguments about pornography demeaning women aren't true across the
board. They have a point, but it's too narrowly focussed, in my opinion.
There are men who will never, ever have real-life sex. They will grow, never
marry, never have a date, and die alone. Lots of them. Let them look at
pictures. There are women in similar circumstances. I have a Mormon friend
who never married, ever. She wouldn't settle for imperfection. I have a
close friend who has had two boyfriends. Now she's nearly 40, very overweight
, doesn't much socialize, and doesn't intend to. Let her read dirty books if
she wants to. I own more erotic stories than I would have if Keith had not
lived in Minneapolis for three and a half years.
Sandra
nasty at all, usually.
There is a site for women out of England, called Cliterati. Very short
stories. Donated by readers.
There is apparently a genre of Japanese animation that has sexual themes.
And then there are the manga (I remembered the word!) of those stories. The
anime club Kirby's been in for over a year never watches those, as it was
formed by a fundamentalist Christian and that's written into the bylaws.
[==wait, cancel that recommendation. I just asked Kirby. He said "The
hen-tai is much more vile than real porn. " He recommends against that--that
it's gross fantasy stuff with tentacle rape and stuff. And you have to be
21. And even then it's too gross, says Kirby.]
Kirby and I think maybe if you live where there's a used magazine, used
bookstore where you can get Playboys from different decades that might be
good. Or just used Playboys (garage sales, sometimes). Or new mom-bought.
There really is a fair amount of stuff to read, usually a really good
interview, and then pictures of women who wanted to be in there. Sometimes
famous women (sometimes later-famous women).
I agree that just saying no is like telling the ocean to be still. And
saying "Not in MY house" is the beginning of dishonesty or moving out, or
both.
I don't want my boys lying to me. So far we can talk about things like this,
and if I draw the line in a place they don't accept, we're no longer sharing
common lives.
Feminist arguments about pornography demeaning women aren't true across the
board. They have a point, but it's too narrowly focussed, in my opinion.
There are men who will never, ever have real-life sex. They will grow, never
marry, never have a date, and die alone. Lots of them. Let them look at
pictures. There are women in similar circumstances. I have a Mormon friend
who never married, ever. She wouldn't settle for imperfection. I have a
close friend who has had two boyfriends. Now she's nearly 40, very overweight
, doesn't much socialize, and doesn't intend to. Let her read dirty books if
she wants to. I own more erotic stories than I would have if Keith had not
lived in Minneapolis for three and a half years.
Sandra
zenmomma *
I've been debating whether or not to give my opinion on this one. We've been
through something similar, but with a weird twist. You see, my "I never
throw away any magazine" hubby has every Playboy he ever received since he
was 18. And he's had a subscription. It's never bothered me, and yes the
articles are good. I have notice the pictures getting downright silly
lately, though.
Anyway, my 12 year old son found the old boxes of mags last year. We would
find magazines, parts of magazines, cut-outs from magazines,etc. in various
places around his room. We weren't snooping, just cleaning and such. And he
wasn't making a big effort to hide them. My dh and I each had many
conversations with him about sexuality, respecting women, why a women would
pose, how it might be harmful, when it's not, etc. We also asked him not to
go into the old stashes or share them with his friends. I wasn't about to be
known as the Porn Momma. And my dh politely explained that a pristine copy
of an old Playboy is worth money, a cut up one is worth nothing. My son
understood that concept right away. :-D
So we boxed up the old copies and they're stored away. My son hasn't been in
them since. Of course, that's not to say that he's not looking at the new
ones lying around. (Yes, the subscription is still current. Men *are*
visual.) But we treat it like the army. Don't ask, don't tell. I also
provided ds with books on puberty, sexuality and there are plenty of
gratuitous shots in most PG-13 movies to keep any 12/13 year old interested.
He did find some internet porn a couple of times and I was very honest with
him about my feelings. From what I've seen that stuff is pretty angry and
usually gross. Not just pictures of lovely ladies. I told him pretty much
what others here have been saying about the violence against women and such.
He agreed that the images disturbed him. I think he prefers what he can find
lying around the house. I probably wouldn't hesitate to install filtering
software if need be. But there seems to be no problem right now.
Issues like pornagraphy are not always black and white for me. There's lots
of gray area concerning what bothers me and what doesn't. One thing I do
know for sure, though, there is no better male role model for my son than my
husband. Playboys and all.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
through something similar, but with a weird twist. You see, my "I never
throw away any magazine" hubby has every Playboy he ever received since he
was 18. And he's had a subscription. It's never bothered me, and yes the
articles are good. I have notice the pictures getting downright silly
lately, though.
Anyway, my 12 year old son found the old boxes of mags last year. We would
find magazines, parts of magazines, cut-outs from magazines,etc. in various
places around his room. We weren't snooping, just cleaning and such. And he
wasn't making a big effort to hide them. My dh and I each had many
conversations with him about sexuality, respecting women, why a women would
pose, how it might be harmful, when it's not, etc. We also asked him not to
go into the old stashes or share them with his friends. I wasn't about to be
known as the Porn Momma. And my dh politely explained that a pristine copy
of an old Playboy is worth money, a cut up one is worth nothing. My son
understood that concept right away. :-D
So we boxed up the old copies and they're stored away. My son hasn't been in
them since. Of course, that's not to say that he's not looking at the new
ones lying around. (Yes, the subscription is still current. Men *are*
visual.) But we treat it like the army. Don't ask, don't tell. I also
provided ds with books on puberty, sexuality and there are plenty of
gratuitous shots in most PG-13 movies to keep any 12/13 year old interested.
He did find some internet porn a couple of times and I was very honest with
him about my feelings. From what I've seen that stuff is pretty angry and
usually gross. Not just pictures of lovely ladies. I told him pretty much
what others here have been saying about the violence against women and such.
He agreed that the images disturbed him. I think he prefers what he can find
lying around the house. I probably wouldn't hesitate to install filtering
software if need be. But there seems to be no problem right now.
Issues like pornagraphy are not always black and white for me. There's lots
of gray area concerning what bothers me and what doesn't. One thing I do
know for sure, though, there is no better male role model for my son than my
husband. Playboys and all.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
Sharon Rudd
There is apparently a genre of Japanese animation
appeared, to me, to be pornographic comics,
everywhere. Busses, subway, walking along the street.
In Japan. The television had lots of nudity. The only
taboo was pubic hair. The comics had a blank spot
where that should be. Bondage, SM, and object or
animal sex seemed to be popular. It was sold (as well
as beer and some other alcohol beverages) in vending
machines on residential street corners. The TV had
drapes (scarves and such) or a leg lifted to just
barely (pun) conceal. The biggest taboo that was
eroticized was guns. They were fondled, viewed from
all angles, examined and exclaimed over. Now there is
popular erotic animation, some of which is written to
the young GIRL audience. I've never seen it, but will
take Kirby's word for it. Sounds gross and tacky.
Jabba the Hut with the Princess Leah on a leash is bad
enough for me!! Dunno what the easy assess and
popularity of this stuff has done to Japanese private
lives. Its been there a while. Must fill some sort of
gap or need. The women I asked about it seemed to
think it was sort of silly of me to have any concerns
or wonder at all. They were wives and mothers. Their
thought was that if I was offended, to look the other
way.
They do have public baths in Japan, for those who
don't have bathing facilities at home...or for those
who prefer the social aspect of group bathing. XDH
used the baths, I, and sons, did not. He said there
was a low barrier between the men and women, but it
could be looked over, if anyone wanted to.
When I was little, I used to look in National
Geographic, sometimes, to check out the nude folks in
other parts of the world. They seem to mostly be
wearing clothes,now. Even in the hot places.
SOS
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> that has sexual themes.20 yrs ago lots of people (of all ages) read what
appeared, to me, to be pornographic comics,
everywhere. Busses, subway, walking along the street.
In Japan. The television had lots of nudity. The only
taboo was pubic hair. The comics had a blank spot
where that should be. Bondage, SM, and object or
animal sex seemed to be popular. It was sold (as well
as beer and some other alcohol beverages) in vending
machines on residential street corners. The TV had
drapes (scarves and such) or a leg lifted to just
barely (pun) conceal. The biggest taboo that was
eroticized was guns. They were fondled, viewed from
all angles, examined and exclaimed over. Now there is
popular erotic animation, some of which is written to
the young GIRL audience. I've never seen it, but will
take Kirby's word for it. Sounds gross and tacky.
Jabba the Hut with the Princess Leah on a leash is bad
enough for me!! Dunno what the easy assess and
popularity of this stuff has done to Japanese private
lives. Its been there a while. Must fill some sort of
gap or need. The women I asked about it seemed to
think it was sort of silly of me to have any concerns
or wonder at all. They were wives and mothers. Their
thought was that if I was offended, to look the other
way.
They do have public baths in Japan, for those who
don't have bathing facilities at home...or for those
who prefer the social aspect of group bathing. XDH
used the baths, I, and sons, did not. He said there
was a low barrier between the men and women, but it
could be looked over, if anyone wanted to.
When I was little, I used to look in National
Geographic, sometimes, to check out the nude folks in
other parts of the world. They seem to mostly be
wearing clothes,now. Even in the hot places.
SOS
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Sharon Rudd
not long after that I heard him use the term
heard (or seen) that term. But it's OK......you don't
have to define it!!
SOS
__________________________________________________
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Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
> "doggy punch". (ItI guess I'm more ignorant that I thought. I've never
> makes me sick to type it
heard (or seen) that term. But it's OK......you don't
have to define it!!
SOS
__________________________________________________
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Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Diane
That's what I came to. I did a search and didn't find anything that seemed to
apply, but didn't want to ask--figured nobody wanted to answer on the list.
:-) Diane
Sharon Rudd wrote:
apply, but didn't want to ask--figured nobody wanted to answer on the list.
:-) Diane
Sharon Rudd wrote:
> not long after that I heard him use the term
> > "doggy punch". (It
> > makes me sick to type it
>
> I guess I'm more ignorant that I thought. I've never
> heard (or seen) that term. But it's OK......you don't
> have to define it!!
>
> SOS
KT
> Feminist arguments about pornography demeaning women aren't trueYes, but a 14 yo is supposed to be able to tell?
> across the
> board. They have a point, but it's too narrowly focussed, in my opinion.
Tuck
>
KT
I tell you, if Roxana promises not to read it.
Tuck
Diane wrote:
Tuck
Diane wrote:
> That's what I came to. I did a search and didn't find anything that[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> seemed to
> apply, but didn't want to ask--figured nobody wanted to answer on the
> list.
>
> :-) Diane
>
> Sharon Rudd wrote:
>
> > not long after that I heard him use the term
> > > "doggy punch". (It
> > > makes me sick to type it
> >
> > I guess I'm more ignorant that I thought. I've never
> > heard (or seen) that term. But it's OK......you don't
> > have to define it!!
> >
> > SOS
>
>
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Peggy
Guess I'll delurk and introduce myself since I can't resist this thread.
I'm Peggy, I live in Tucson and have two daughters ages 7 and 10. We've
been lucky enough to spend some time this past fall with Dar and Cacie
before they return to the left coast. :)
Healthy sexuality starts from the very first moment of a child's life.
The perversion of that healthy sexuality isn't something that happens
overnight. Men that have grown up around women who were treated
respectfully don't want to degrade them and are not aroused by seeing
others do it. The problem is that we have so much dysfunction around us
that the "normal" range of sexual appetites in our culture reflects our
real inner landscapes, as scarred and desolate as they may be. For
example, children who are brought up in violence grow to find violence
arousing instead of deplorable.
So, what a 14 yo finds arousing isn't really up to him or to what he
reads, it is keyed into a inner landscape that developed along with his
body. Exposure to pornography doesn't develop that inner landscape but I
believe it can channel it, in the same ways that poor friend choices in
those ages can lead kids down paths they might not have otherwise taken.
Peggy
KT wrote:
I'm Peggy, I live in Tucson and have two daughters ages 7 and 10. We've
been lucky enough to spend some time this past fall with Dar and Cacie
before they return to the left coast. :)
Healthy sexuality starts from the very first moment of a child's life.
The perversion of that healthy sexuality isn't something that happens
overnight. Men that have grown up around women who were treated
respectfully don't want to degrade them and are not aroused by seeing
others do it. The problem is that we have so much dysfunction around us
that the "normal" range of sexual appetites in our culture reflects our
real inner landscapes, as scarred and desolate as they may be. For
example, children who are brought up in violence grow to find violence
arousing instead of deplorable.
So, what a 14 yo finds arousing isn't really up to him or to what he
reads, it is keyed into a inner landscape that developed along with his
body. Exposure to pornography doesn't develop that inner landscape but I
believe it can channel it, in the same ways that poor friend choices in
those ages can lead kids down paths they might not have otherwise taken.
Peggy
KT wrote:
>
> > Feminist arguments about pornography demeaning women aren't true
> > across the
> > board. They have a point, but it's too narrowly focussed, in my opinion.
>
> Yes, but a 14 yo is supposed to be able to tell?
>
> Tuck
>
> >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/02 1:07:47 PM, Tuck@... writes:
<< They have a point, but it's too narrowly focussed, in my opinion.
Yes, but a 14 yo is supposed to be able to tell?
"all demeans women" he might start to wonder what "demeans women" means.
I am personally more offended and see more danger in dishonesty and
overreaction than I do in pornography itself, so if kids are told no for
reasons that don't make sense to them that seems a problem all in its own.
And most reasons I've seen were about sin, the "dangers" of masturbation, or
the feminist arguments.
Sandra
<< They have a point, but it's too narrowly focussed, in my opinion.
Yes, but a 14 yo is supposed to be able to tell?
>>Well if he's told "some demeans women" he's told a truth, but if he's told
"all demeans women" he might start to wonder what "demeans women" means.
I am personally more offended and see more danger in dishonesty and
overreaction than I do in pornography itself, so if kids are told no for
reasons that don't make sense to them that seems a problem all in its own.
And most reasons I've seen were about sin, the "dangers" of masturbation, or
the feminist arguments.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/02 3:36:03 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< And most reasons I've seen were about sin, the "dangers" of masturbation,
or
the feminist arguments. >>
Okay -- I'm opposed to pornography, "vile erotica", as opposed to "artful
erotica" because I find it dehumanizing; i.e. deprived of human qualities,
personality, or spirit.
Sin is not a part of my lexicon. I'm not even sure what the dangers of
masturbation are. Feminist arguments would be those made in the interests of
women? Might have me there -- when sexuality is used to express dominance
(without consent) and anger, that bothers me -- and there's a lot of
pornography which uses rape and violence to arouse. There's a lot of
pornography which uses images of young teens and children, which encourages
men to fantasize about teenage girls. How many sites are there advertising
"barely legal teens"? Many. There are many countries where teenage girls
and children are sold into the sex trade -- a bit different than sex
"workers". I think it's a problem.
I don't have a problem with 40 year old women reading erotica, even dumb
erotica. Nor a grown man who for whatever reason is unable to participate in
"real" sex and so uses pictures of women or men to aid masturbation
fantasies. Not that one requires such a handicap to pleasure oneself.
What I commented on, without being too specific, apologies, was the thought
that children....those humans under the age of 18...should be allowed privacy
on their computers. The implication being, I'm supposing, that if they're
interested in those sites offering pornography, they should indulge without
the burden of parental comment.
Happens I disagree -- not because I'm opposed to sex, sexuality,
masturbation, erotica, or freedom of religion, speech, choice, gender of
sexual partner or color of vibrator.
I think it's possible to view pornography as a bad thing to which children
are better left unexposed, without relying on pseudoscience, religious
dictates, personal prudery, or strident feminazi as easily dismissed reasons.
Sharon
<< And most reasons I've seen were about sin, the "dangers" of masturbation,
or
the feminist arguments. >>
Okay -- I'm opposed to pornography, "vile erotica", as opposed to "artful
erotica" because I find it dehumanizing; i.e. deprived of human qualities,
personality, or spirit.
Sin is not a part of my lexicon. I'm not even sure what the dangers of
masturbation are. Feminist arguments would be those made in the interests of
women? Might have me there -- when sexuality is used to express dominance
(without consent) and anger, that bothers me -- and there's a lot of
pornography which uses rape and violence to arouse. There's a lot of
pornography which uses images of young teens and children, which encourages
men to fantasize about teenage girls. How many sites are there advertising
"barely legal teens"? Many. There are many countries where teenage girls
and children are sold into the sex trade -- a bit different than sex
"workers". I think it's a problem.
I don't have a problem with 40 year old women reading erotica, even dumb
erotica. Nor a grown man who for whatever reason is unable to participate in
"real" sex and so uses pictures of women or men to aid masturbation
fantasies. Not that one requires such a handicap to pleasure oneself.
What I commented on, without being too specific, apologies, was the thought
that children....those humans under the age of 18...should be allowed privacy
on their computers. The implication being, I'm supposing, that if they're
interested in those sites offering pornography, they should indulge without
the burden of parental comment.
Happens I disagree -- not because I'm opposed to sex, sexuality,
masturbation, erotica, or freedom of religion, speech, choice, gender of
sexual partner or color of vibrator.
I think it's possible to view pornography as a bad thing to which children
are better left unexposed, without relying on pseudoscience, religious
dictates, personal prudery, or strident feminazi as easily dismissed reasons.
Sharon
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/02 2:12:51 PM, sharonve@... writes:
<< I'm not even sure what the dangers of
masturbation are. >>
Hairy palms.
Blindness.
Hell.
You know.
<< I'm not even sure what the dangers of
masturbation are. >>
Hairy palms.
Blindness.
Hell.
You know.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/02 2:12:51 PM, sharonve@... writes:
<< when sexuality is used to express dominance
(without consent) and anger, that bothers me -- and there's a lot of
pornography which uses rape and violence to arouse. >>
The most common fantasy women have involves being taken by force, or
otherwise forced. It's not a wish to actually be forced, it's supposed to be
(by those who have written about it, if they're right) a way to excuse their
desires for wild sex. If they had no choice, they're still nice women. If
someone else MADE them do something (oral sex) then they can be absolved.
What people think about during sex is not what they really honestly wish will
happen to them, say psychologists and sex researchers whose stuff I've read.
But fantasies among women are past common, to maybe universal.
-=-There's a lot of
pornography which uses images of young teens and children, which encourages
men to fantasize about teenage girls. -=-
Do you think men need encouragement to fantasize about teenage girls?
-=-There are many countries where teenage girls
and children are sold into the sex trade -- a bit different than sex
"workers". I think it's a problem.-=-
And that has been true for a few thousand years that we know of.
Will shaming a few American adolescents change it?
-=-<< I think it's possible to view pornography as a bad thing to which
children
are better left unexposed, without relying on pseudoscience, religious
dictates, personal prudery, or strident feminazi as easily dismissed reasons.
But once they are exposed, you're going to have to rely on something to go
with the "NO, no more. Forget you ever saw it."
Sandra
<< when sexuality is used to express dominance
(without consent) and anger, that bothers me -- and there's a lot of
pornography which uses rape and violence to arouse. >>
The most common fantasy women have involves being taken by force, or
otherwise forced. It's not a wish to actually be forced, it's supposed to be
(by those who have written about it, if they're right) a way to excuse their
desires for wild sex. If they had no choice, they're still nice women. If
someone else MADE them do something (oral sex) then they can be absolved.
What people think about during sex is not what they really honestly wish will
happen to them, say psychologists and sex researchers whose stuff I've read.
But fantasies among women are past common, to maybe universal.
-=-There's a lot of
pornography which uses images of young teens and children, which encourages
men to fantasize about teenage girls. -=-
Do you think men need encouragement to fantasize about teenage girls?
-=-There are many countries where teenage girls
and children are sold into the sex trade -- a bit different than sex
"workers". I think it's a problem.-=-
And that has been true for a few thousand years that we know of.
Will shaming a few American adolescents change it?
-=-<< I think it's possible to view pornography as a bad thing to which
children
are better left unexposed, without relying on pseudoscience, religious
dictates, personal prudery, or strident feminazi as easily dismissed reasons.
>>True.
But once they are exposed, you're going to have to rely on something to go
with the "NO, no more. Forget you ever saw it."
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/1/02 9:27:48 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< Do you think men need encouragement to fantasize about teenage girls?>>
I do know men who claim, at any rate, to find the presentation of teen girls
as sexual objects disturbing -- and not in terms of arousal. I can't speak
for all of them. But I do think the internet promotion encourages it.
-=-There are many countries where teenage girls
and children are sold into the sex trade -- a bit different than sex
"workers". I think it's a problem.-=-
And that has been true for a few thousand years that we know of.
Will shaming a few American adolescents change it? >>
Why does assessment and decision against that sort of behavior equate to
shaming? It is possible to calmly discuss something without overreacting,
without shaming -- it is possible to nod to an arousal without acting on it.
It is possible to choose to turn to things which do not dehumanize, and still
enjoy sexual arousal.
And -- I don't know if bringing it into the light of day and saying something
isn't healthy will change it. But it's a start. We are not at the mercy of
instinct or whatever it is that we say acknowledge as traditional in the
sexual pursuit of younger than adult people. We can choose not to objectify
children and women -- but if we do not acknowledge that such a change would
be good -- how are we to get there?
Saying that something has been done for thousands of years is not
justification for its occurence. Nor is it enough of a reason to say, oh
well -- go ahead as many have before you. The child or young girl or boy who
is used in this manner has a life worth protecting.
Perhaps if American adolescents are gently, not shamedly, given an alternate
viewpoint -- it's a start. Not to say, forget you ever saw it, although it
would be nice if they didn't -- but why it's an unhealthy alternative.
Sharon
<< Do you think men need encouragement to fantasize about teenage girls?>>
I do know men who claim, at any rate, to find the presentation of teen girls
as sexual objects disturbing -- and not in terms of arousal. I can't speak
for all of them. But I do think the internet promotion encourages it.
-=-There are many countries where teenage girls
and children are sold into the sex trade -- a bit different than sex
"workers". I think it's a problem.-=-
And that has been true for a few thousand years that we know of.
Will shaming a few American adolescents change it? >>
Why does assessment and decision against that sort of behavior equate to
shaming? It is possible to calmly discuss something without overreacting,
without shaming -- it is possible to nod to an arousal without acting on it.
It is possible to choose to turn to things which do not dehumanize, and still
enjoy sexual arousal.
And -- I don't know if bringing it into the light of day and saying something
isn't healthy will change it. But it's a start. We are not at the mercy of
instinct or whatever it is that we say acknowledge as traditional in the
sexual pursuit of younger than adult people. We can choose not to objectify
children and women -- but if we do not acknowledge that such a change would
be good -- how are we to get there?
Saying that something has been done for thousands of years is not
justification for its occurence. Nor is it enough of a reason to say, oh
well -- go ahead as many have before you. The child or young girl or boy who
is used in this manner has a life worth protecting.
Perhaps if American adolescents are gently, not shamedly, given an alternate
viewpoint -- it's a start. Not to say, forget you ever saw it, although it
would be nice if they didn't -- but why it's an unhealthy alternative.
Sharon
Sharon Rudd
> Perhaps if American adolescents are gently, notLearning to view the representations of people as
> shamedly, given an alternate
> viewpoint -- it's a start. Not to say, forget you
> ever saw it, although it
> would be nice if they didn't -- but why it's an
> unhealthy alternative.
>
> Sharon
having REAL people behind them does help. To begin to
understand how the perpetrator/victim relationship
works helps, too.
When young men see youngster their own age, or
younger, they are of course curious, but when they
realize what the tragedies behind this image might
be...the hero in them is often aroused.
When my boys noticed (or didn't and I pointed them
out) street walkers I would speculate as to what made
them have to do this dangerous dangerous thing to
survive. We talked about why they had to trick (not a
pun :)) themselves into thinking it was OK....the
boys, of course were curious...."where, where?" "her?"
"him?". We talked about what if it was them? or me? or
Kyla (the niece we cared for as a toddler).....what
kinds of situations could trap someone it that kind of
slavery?
I tried not to share MY OWN experiences, as I am very
private, verging on prudish, due to....well that is
just me, now. I can be very open in a cerebral sort
of way, and I am very open when it seems to me to be
to the benefit (from my point of view) of someone who
wants or needs benefiting (I try to say, always, "have
you thought about?" or "This has been my experience"
something that makes it non-advice, just information.
It is a counseling technique to prevent dependence and
attachment....used it with my clients, too). Still, it
only seems fair to use use myself instead of
someonelse.
I am guilty of covertly monitoring the boys (and
Nancy, the sister of whom I had custody from age 11
and the care and support of off and own from her
birth) what they read, said, did, and who their
friends were. Most of their friends called me Mama,
too. I told them, that if they wanted their stuff
private, they had to do the cleaning. If I was to do
the cleaning, then whatever I came across was not
private. Huck had a Penthouse under his mattress, I
looked though it (well, I am curious, too....and i was
comparing the models to me....and to the girls I KNEW
he liked. Quite dissimilar) put it back. He also had
roach farm (REALLY) in his desk in and old aquarium.
This was a BIG desk with a safe sort of place
underneath. I helped him, some, with this project.
He wanted to enter the Big Roach contest (Texas) and
win a bunch of money. David had some Playboys at one
time. Moses had some roaches of a different sort and
some seeds. These and the residue had to go! Jail is
too big a risk!! We talked about that and the other
kids and parents and ...... he wondered how I found
this evidence ..... I just went right to it, actually.
Mother's intuition. I told him not to count on it
(Mother's intuition) all the time though... he had to
take responsibility for his own actions...
I once had to fetch Nancy from a juvinal detention
center. She, and a gaggle of girls had decided to
hitch to the beach...on the other side of the state!
Some of the girl's mother's were so angry they wanted
to let their children spend the night there!...I
talked everyone into letting me bring them all home.
There were kids in CHAINS there! Another time, she was
well, anyway,.......
I wanted them all to know that NO MATTER WHAT, I was
on their side. Entirely. But if there was a problem,
I did need to know eveyrhting about what was going on,
in order for us to figure out what to do. Nancy was
the hardest. Not the boys.
The most difficult thing about the boys was cars and
motorcycles. Boy insurance costs more. And they DO
like to drive fast!
ALL those years of listening....really listening....to
what they had to say about everything. I had to be
interested in all of their selves (including motors)
, not just one aspect of them, in order for them to be
able to share with me.... so I knew that David and Kim
where virgins and that David has never been kissed
another girl than his wife, Kim. I know that the
dental hygienist was stalking Huck.....it was WAY more
than flirting....and we put together a strategy to
gently divert her...and when he had a flea bite on the
edge of his foreskin, he was able to ask me about it
(at age 14) He and his girlfriend just are a lovely
couple. And I just helped Moses get a double bed
instead of the single he had so that he and his
girlfriend could sleep more comfortably. She just
moved in with him. I even loaned 'em my truck to
move. I take them frozen dinners to zap.
To me, making a warm beautiful quilt for the young
couple....and children.....is a way of encouraging
HEALTHY sexual attitudes. I write in the corner of
each quilt "May you always sleep warm and loved." Not
"Sexually satisfied".
Tia, if you were able to wade through all of this, you
are probably doing just fine with your 14yo. As long
as he knows you love him and care for him and his
health. And that you have trust in him to make the
kindest desicions about how to treat others and
themselves. I KNOW my kids do.....and always have.
Sharon of the Swamp
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In a message dated 1/2/02 11:09:33 AM, bearspawprint@... writes:
<< To me, making a warm beautiful quilt for the young
couple....and children.....is a way of encouraging
HEALTHY sexual attitudes. I write in the corner of
each quilt "May you always sleep warm and loved." Not
"Sexually satisfied". >>
If and when, *looks sheepishly at the pile of fabric in her bedroom drawer*,
I get that darn quilt finished, I'll copy that sentiment.
Sharon
<< To me, making a warm beautiful quilt for the young
couple....and children.....is a way of encouraging
HEALTHY sexual attitudes. I write in the corner of
each quilt "May you always sleep warm and loved." Not
"Sexually satisfied". >>
If and when, *looks sheepishly at the pile of fabric in her bedroom drawer*,
I get that darn quilt finished, I'll copy that sentiment.
Sharon
Joylyn
sharonve@... wrote:
Joylyn
>Thank you!
> In a message dated 12/30/01 9:16:29 PM,
> Tuck@... writes:
>
> << I think pornography is a disgrace and
> subjugates women, and being blase
> about it with my son is shirking my
> responsibility to my future
> daughter-in-law and granddaughters. I also
> think teenage boys can have
> normal, healthy sexual impulses and desires
> without degrading other
> people. >>
>
> *nods*
>
> Pornography celebrates the absence of
> connection with self in sexuality --
> it's lowest common denominator expression
> of sexuality. I'm tired of
> invitations to view teens having sex with
> animals arriving in my email box.
> A lot of really low life stuff is out
> there, and I'm not interested in
> reviewing it.
>
> I'm fine discussing sexuality and healthy
> expression with my children. I
> don't discuss it in purely physical terms
> -- I weave in emotional benefits
> and costs, timing and responsibility. Our
> family situation has required a
> lot of outside the box discussion. And
> yet, I think it's possible to
> unschool, to value freedom of choice,
> without accepting everything as
> relevant and appropriate and healthy.
> Pornography has no place in this home.
Joylyn
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Sharon
>
>
Joylyn
Thank you for writing this. I totally
believe in unschooling, and I'm learning
about not limiting tv, computer time, I've
always been a big fan of no food limits, no
bedtime, etc. but I'm sorry, letting our
children get into porn is to me similar to
letting our children get into physically
hurting another person. Porn does hurt
people every day. I have a good friend who
lost her home, and went into debt big time
because her husband thought it was OK to look
at porn on the computer. It escalated into
going to strip joints and he had begun to
visit hookers when the problem came to light.
He has been "sober" from sex addiction for 4
years but they are still putting their lives
back together and still sufferering from the
financial devistation he caused with his
addiction. Also, he still goes to meetings
(similar to AA) which takes hours away from
their lives together each week. She went to
meetings as well (similar to alanon) for a
year or two. To me, there are limits to what
is acceptable, and porn goes way past that
limit. The damage it does to people is
serious. It is simply not acceptable.
Joylyn
KT wrote:
believe in unschooling, and I'm learning
about not limiting tv, computer time, I've
always been a big fan of no food limits, no
bedtime, etc. but I'm sorry, letting our
children get into porn is to me similar to
letting our children get into physically
hurting another person. Porn does hurt
people every day. I have a good friend who
lost her home, and went into debt big time
because her husband thought it was OK to look
at porn on the computer. It escalated into
going to strip joints and he had begun to
visit hookers when the problem came to light.
He has been "sober" from sex addiction for 4
years but they are still putting their lives
back together and still sufferering from the
financial devistation he caused with his
addiction. Also, he still goes to meetings
(similar to AA) which takes hours away from
their lives together each week. She went to
meetings as well (similar to alanon) for a
year or two. To me, there are limits to what
is acceptable, and porn goes way past that
limit. The damage it does to people is
serious. It is simply not acceptable.
Joylyn
KT wrote:
> I was forced into temporary employment forADVERTISEMENT
> a while when my middle son
> was 14. He ended up being in charge of our
> littlest one for about a
> week while dh and I both worked before I
> quit. I was *really* ready to
> quit and during that week I got this really
> strong urge to just get out
> of that job and go home, and so I did.
>
> When I got home, my son was in my office
> with the door shut. I put my
> hand on the knob and found it locked. I
> said, knowing what he was
> doing, "Why is the door locked?" And he
> said in the weakest, most
> guilty voice imaginable, "The door's
> locked? I don't know why it's
> locked."
>
> Needless to say he opened the door and I
> swept him aside and found that
> crap on the screen. He knew it was wrong,
> or he wouldn't have locked
> the door.
>
> I spoke about it with some dear friends of
> mine and one of them offered
> me some reading for him about how
> pornography damages women, and I took
> her up on it. I made him read it and tell
> me what he learned, in
> detail. We talked about it and discussed
> it until I was blue in the
> face. I was angry and hurt and appalled,
> but not as appalled as the
> time not long after that I heard him use
> the term "doggy punch". (It
> makes me sick to type it.) Then he saw the
> color drain from my face and
> the nausea rise in my throat when I made
> him explain to me what it
> means. I think it was *THEN* that he
> finally realized that I was
> **SERIOUS** about this issue, that I
> wouldn't allow it in my house and
> that he had just better get over it.
>
> I think pornography is a disgrace and
> subjugates women, and being blase
> about it with my son is shirking my
> responsibility to my future
> daughter-in-law and granddaughters. I also
> think teenage boys can have
> normal, healthy sexual impulses and desires
> without degrading other
> people.
>
> I'm no prude, but how can I look myself in
> the mirror if I raise a son
> who thinks "that" term is humorous?
>
> Tuck, strongly opinionated on this subject
>
>
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Karin
First I'd like to say that I'm very sorry for your friends porn related trouble with her husband. It really sounds like nightmare to have to live through. But when I was finished reading it, I couldn't help having some thoughts about it.
Why did the husband have a need to look at porn on the computer in the first place? Why did he think it was okay? And was it really because of the computer porn that he had a *need* to go the the strip joints and hookers?
My dh likes to look at porn sometimes, and I'm sure it has come up on the computer from time to time, only because those sites come up out of nowhere sometimes and all of the sudden they're in your face. But he chooses not to go for internet porn because it seems to be more distasteful and just plain nastier than your average mag or movie. I don't get insulted or hurt or anything by his looking at porn sometimes. He treats me well, and is a good father and works hard for our family, etc... He is not any less of a good person because he looks at porn. I would definitely draw the line on what kind it is - if it involves children or really hurting other people - I think that's wrong.
My thought is that in the situation you described with your friend, maybe his parents or religion shamed him or he was made to feel bad for looking at or liking porn when he was younger. He may have been forced to push aside his natural desire to look at it, because he was told those images are wrong, nasty, dirty, etc... So that when he grew up and had the access to it, he really went crazy and became irrational about it. I think there is a very fine line to draw with how you should handle porn with your kids, and I think it's always healthy to talk about it as much as possible, if you can do it without squirming too much! The issue has not really come up with our boys yet as they are still kind of young (8 and 10) and whatever we have around the house is well hidden. But I am reading this topic with great interest and taking notes for future reference.
Respectfully,
Karin
Joylyn wrote:
Thank you for writing this. I totally
believe in unschooling, and I'm learning
about not limiting tv, computer time, I've
always been a big fan of no food limits, no
bedtime, etc. but I'm sorry, letting our
children get into porn is to me similar to
letting our children get into physically
hurting another person. Porn does hurt
people every day. I have a good friend who
lost her home, and went into debt big time
because her husband thought it was OK to look
at porn on the computer. It escalated into
going to strip joints and he had begun to
visit hookers when the problem came to light.
He has been "sober" from sex addiction for 4
years but they are still putting their lives
back together and still sufferering from the
financial devistation he caused with his
addiction. Also, he still goes to meetings
(similar to AA) which takes hours away from
their lives together each week. She went to
meetings as well (similar to alanon) for a
year or two. To me, there are limits to what
is acceptable, and porn goes way past that
limit. The damage it does to people is
serious. It is simply not acceptable.
Joylyn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why did the husband have a need to look at porn on the computer in the first place? Why did he think it was okay? And was it really because of the computer porn that he had a *need* to go the the strip joints and hookers?
My dh likes to look at porn sometimes, and I'm sure it has come up on the computer from time to time, only because those sites come up out of nowhere sometimes and all of the sudden they're in your face. But he chooses not to go for internet porn because it seems to be more distasteful and just plain nastier than your average mag or movie. I don't get insulted or hurt or anything by his looking at porn sometimes. He treats me well, and is a good father and works hard for our family, etc... He is not any less of a good person because he looks at porn. I would definitely draw the line on what kind it is - if it involves children or really hurting other people - I think that's wrong.
My thought is that in the situation you described with your friend, maybe his parents or religion shamed him or he was made to feel bad for looking at or liking porn when he was younger. He may have been forced to push aside his natural desire to look at it, because he was told those images are wrong, nasty, dirty, etc... So that when he grew up and had the access to it, he really went crazy and became irrational about it. I think there is a very fine line to draw with how you should handle porn with your kids, and I think it's always healthy to talk about it as much as possible, if you can do it without squirming too much! The issue has not really come up with our boys yet as they are still kind of young (8 and 10) and whatever we have around the house is well hidden. But I am reading this topic with great interest and taking notes for future reference.
Respectfully,
Karin
Joylyn wrote:
Thank you for writing this. I totally
believe in unschooling, and I'm learning
about not limiting tv, computer time, I've
always been a big fan of no food limits, no
bedtime, etc. but I'm sorry, letting our
children get into porn is to me similar to
letting our children get into physically
hurting another person. Porn does hurt
people every day. I have a good friend who
lost her home, and went into debt big time
because her husband thought it was OK to look
at porn on the computer. It escalated into
going to strip joints and he had begun to
visit hookers when the problem came to light.
He has been "sober" from sex addiction for 4
years but they are still putting their lives
back together and still sufferering from the
financial devistation he caused with his
addiction. Also, he still goes to meetings
(similar to AA) which takes hours away from
their lives together each week. She went to
meetings as well (similar to alanon) for a
year or two. To me, there are limits to what
is acceptable, and porn goes way past that
limit. The damage it does to people is
serious. It is simply not acceptable.
Joylyn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]