the real question/newness (if any) is in the middle
[email protected]
The real question/newness (if any) is in the middle.
I retyped the second and third paragraphs because when I mailed the file to
myself it had a "bad text" note in the middle there. IF this all goes
through, the end should have a row of *****
There was a little discussion on another list that turned to the idea that
there was a group of unschoolers saying who could and couldn't unschool. It's
been making me think. A thought made me get out of bed and come and write when
I should be sleeping. But it wasn't we were saying "We won't let you," we
were saying, "If you believe thus and such more than you believe your child is a
natural natural-learner, unschooling won't work."
This difficult sort of question has been on the edge of every online
discussion I've been in since I was first on Prodigy and reading newsgroups in the
days when computers were in black and white. Does someone else saying you can
make you able to? No. Does someone else saying you can't prevent you? No.
What will enable a person to do ANYthing? Talent, interest, ability, desire,
action—things like that.
I'm not a soccer player; some of you are or have been or could be. Some of
you play no musical instruments while I do; some of you could, some have too
little talent, interest and desire in that area. Cooking, engine tune-up, lens
grinding, geological prospecting, oil painting… some we do, some we don't,
some could, some couldn't.
Anyway, when and if people come to an unschooling source or resource, does
touching the book or joining the group guarantee understanding or success?
Here's what I wrote when I woke up:
============
If someone can't handle real questions about their own thoughts, unschooling
will not come easily. If others asking "WHY do you think what you say you
believe?" makes them so angry that they slam away muttering, how will they handle
the simpler questions of friends, neighbors, and grocery store clerks?
Without examining our own past learning, our fears and the times and ways we
have shut out input and feedback,, the conscious direction of our thoughts
won't be easy. Unschoolers need to come to the point that they can face their
past so that they can make peace with it, and pass the peace on to their
children.
My husband's favorite parts of movies tends to be the "training scenes" of
heroes and avengers. From old Hong Kong kick flicks through Star Wars, Zorro,
Buffy and the Matrix,, there are people carrying water, walking on rice paper,
catching flies with chopsticks, lifting, sensing, enduring and growing strong
and calm. He helped me gain an appreciation for that traditional glimpse
into what makes the change in a person's outlook and skills.
People new to unschooling are easily unbalanced with a question like "Why?"
or 'How do you propose to do that?" We can help them find that balance, but
it has to be their own real balance and knowledge, not them parroting our
words.
School calls test scores "knowing." If we "knew" everything we had ever spat
back out on a ten-question Friday quiz, school would be the most successful
thing in the history of the world. I have a piece of paper that says I
"know" Middle English, and for a phrase or two I might, but what I did was to keep
in the 80% range of cooperation and performance for four months one time as a
teacher presented information about Middle English. What I do know, I
learned by caring about it, and following it up in the years to follow. Some
people think they know geometry or the history of Rome, but if they look at what
they know it will probably be divided into what someone else said they knew and
what they've learned from their own curiosity and fascination. If all they
have is what they repeated back on tests in school, they will know less than
they could.
In learning to unschool, what people learn to speak back on Friday is too
small to count. What they do "in the field," with their own real children, in
real time, on difficult mornings, on feverish evenings, on boring afternoons or
days filled with bickering is the hard part. The unbalancing, frightening
times when they feel alone are when they do or do not. We can play Yoda on lists
like this, but we can't lift your child out of the mire of school. You have
to believe that you can do it, and then you have to maintain your resolve and
your balance and your focus for years.
-------------------------
Maybe it could be an article, or maybe it's just me muttering to myself to
improve my own thinking.
Probably it would be better as a discussion here. Someone lately said this
was an advanced unschooling list. <g> I know there are beginning unschoolers
here too, and that's fine.
I read something last night that Kelly Lovejoy is writing about stages of
unschooling, and maybe I dreamed about it, and woke up with a thought like a
sticker. Some people don't want to hear that there are higher levels of
unschooling thought. People have been "shushing" such ideas for years, and I had some
urge to shush Kelly last night. Some people's first move is to be angry that
anyone else thinks they know more about unschooling than others. I get harsh
insults every few weeks by people who show up cocky and overconfident and
clueless and unbalanced (one way or another).
I don't think the answer is for those who have been helping others to stop
doing that. I don't think the answer is for us to deny for all time even to
each other that there ARE beginning levels and more advanced levels. Joyce
Fetteroll said something on UnschoolingDiscussion last month about something being
too difficult for beginners (which might be what inspired Kelly's upcoming
article, or not) and my first response was fear and then laughter (I kept it
private). She was right, it was just the idea that she WROTE it and put it out
in public.
Do we need to bury that idea again or can we safely discuss it?
******************************
I retyped the second and third paragraphs because when I mailed the file to
myself it had a "bad text" note in the middle there. IF this all goes
through, the end should have a row of *****
There was a little discussion on another list that turned to the idea that
there was a group of unschoolers saying who could and couldn't unschool. It's
been making me think. A thought made me get out of bed and come and write when
I should be sleeping. But it wasn't we were saying "We won't let you," we
were saying, "If you believe thus and such more than you believe your child is a
natural natural-learner, unschooling won't work."
This difficult sort of question has been on the edge of every online
discussion I've been in since I was first on Prodigy and reading newsgroups in the
days when computers were in black and white. Does someone else saying you can
make you able to? No. Does someone else saying you can't prevent you? No.
What will enable a person to do ANYthing? Talent, interest, ability, desire,
action—things like that.
I'm not a soccer player; some of you are or have been or could be. Some of
you play no musical instruments while I do; some of you could, some have too
little talent, interest and desire in that area. Cooking, engine tune-up, lens
grinding, geological prospecting, oil painting… some we do, some we don't,
some could, some couldn't.
Anyway, when and if people come to an unschooling source or resource, does
touching the book or joining the group guarantee understanding or success?
Here's what I wrote when I woke up:
============
If someone can't handle real questions about their own thoughts, unschooling
will not come easily. If others asking "WHY do you think what you say you
believe?" makes them so angry that they slam away muttering, how will they handle
the simpler questions of friends, neighbors, and grocery store clerks?
Without examining our own past learning, our fears and the times and ways we
have shut out input and feedback,, the conscious direction of our thoughts
won't be easy. Unschoolers need to come to the point that they can face their
past so that they can make peace with it, and pass the peace on to their
children.
My husband's favorite parts of movies tends to be the "training scenes" of
heroes and avengers. From old Hong Kong kick flicks through Star Wars, Zorro,
Buffy and the Matrix,, there are people carrying water, walking on rice paper,
catching flies with chopsticks, lifting, sensing, enduring and growing strong
and calm. He helped me gain an appreciation for that traditional glimpse
into what makes the change in a person's outlook and skills.
People new to unschooling are easily unbalanced with a question like "Why?"
or 'How do you propose to do that?" We can help them find that balance, but
it has to be their own real balance and knowledge, not them parroting our
words.
School calls test scores "knowing." If we "knew" everything we had ever spat
back out on a ten-question Friday quiz, school would be the most successful
thing in the history of the world. I have a piece of paper that says I
"know" Middle English, and for a phrase or two I might, but what I did was to keep
in the 80% range of cooperation and performance for four months one time as a
teacher presented information about Middle English. What I do know, I
learned by caring about it, and following it up in the years to follow. Some
people think they know geometry or the history of Rome, but if they look at what
they know it will probably be divided into what someone else said they knew and
what they've learned from their own curiosity and fascination. If all they
have is what they repeated back on tests in school, they will know less than
they could.
In learning to unschool, what people learn to speak back on Friday is too
small to count. What they do "in the field," with their own real children, in
real time, on difficult mornings, on feverish evenings, on boring afternoons or
days filled with bickering is the hard part. The unbalancing, frightening
times when they feel alone are when they do or do not. We can play Yoda on lists
like this, but we can't lift your child out of the mire of school. You have
to believe that you can do it, and then you have to maintain your resolve and
your balance and your focus for years.
-------------------------
Maybe it could be an article, or maybe it's just me muttering to myself to
improve my own thinking.
Probably it would be better as a discussion here. Someone lately said this
was an advanced unschooling list. <g> I know there are beginning unschoolers
here too, and that's fine.
I read something last night that Kelly Lovejoy is writing about stages of
unschooling, and maybe I dreamed about it, and woke up with a thought like a
sticker. Some people don't want to hear that there are higher levels of
unschooling thought. People have been "shushing" such ideas for years, and I had some
urge to shush Kelly last night. Some people's first move is to be angry that
anyone else thinks they know more about unschooling than others. I get harsh
insults every few weeks by people who show up cocky and overconfident and
clueless and unbalanced (one way or another).
I don't think the answer is for those who have been helping others to stop
doing that. I don't think the answer is for us to deny for all time even to
each other that there ARE beginning levels and more advanced levels. Joyce
Fetteroll said something on UnschoolingDiscussion last month about something being
too difficult for beginners (which might be what inspired Kelly's upcoming
article, or not) and my first response was fear and then laughter (I kept it
private). She was right, it was just the idea that she WROTE it and put it out
in public.
Do we need to bury that idea again or can we safely discuss it?
******************************
Betsy
**I'm not a soccer player; some of you are or have been or could be. **
Dancing in and out of your analogy:
I'm way to heavy to be a good soccer player, but sometimes I do play
soccer with the moms and kids at our park day on Tuesday. (I play
goalie and don't run much at all.) However, last Monday I stubbed my
toe so badly that I thought it might be broken, and when I was at the
park Tuesday there was no way that I was going to kick a hard ball with
such a sore toe.
So if Professor Snape could whip up Toe-Desensitizing-Potion, more
people could overcome their pains and issues and unschool successfully.
But without some kind of persuasive magic trying to unschool with
certain issues is probably a lot like playing soccer with a sore toe.
Betsy, stretching the analogy a bit too far
Dancing in and out of your analogy:
I'm way to heavy to be a good soccer player, but sometimes I do play
soccer with the moms and kids at our park day on Tuesday. (I play
goalie and don't run much at all.) However, last Monday I stubbed my
toe so badly that I thought it might be broken, and when I was at the
park Tuesday there was no way that I was going to kick a hard ball with
such a sore toe.
So if Professor Snape could whip up Toe-Desensitizing-Potion, more
people could overcome their pains and issues and unschool successfully.
But without some kind of persuasive magic trying to unschool with
certain issues is probably a lot like playing soccer with a sore toe.
Betsy, stretching the analogy a bit too far
Kelli Traaseth
Sandra wrote:
*** Some people's first move is to be angry
that
I hope we can discuss it.
I was going to post something last week on some what of the same subject,
but never did. I'm glad it was you that started it. <g>
I do think there are some sort of levels in unschooling.
I don't think we can call it beginner, intermediate or advanced. Of course
you can't
put labels on it that way. (I know Kelly was joking around earlier when she
referred to the list that way, but we know what she means.) There are
different levels of
awareness in it. Maybe its how far a person wants it to permiate into their
life. But yet that's when we start getting into trouble. <g> Because
isn't unschooling living your life, so isn't it going to encompass it?
What hit me and what got me thinking last week was a simple statement from
someone on one of the lists, something like, "they are finally off the
Playstation" or equally "they are finally doing something other than video
games". These types of statements now jump out at me. When I first
started unschooling, I'm sure I would have said the same thing and not
blinked twice at the statements.
Now as I read something like that, it really bothers me. I don't always
respond to comments like these because people aren't always ready to hear
the criticism. Which could be good or bad of me, in helping them
understand unschooling. I want to say something to the effect of "so what
if they are still playing video games?" Isn't a big part of
unschooling, accepting where our children are? My child might end up
designing games, programming, testing games, what-ever.
Isn't that a good place to be in? I think so.
I think that is the beauty of unschooling. But I'm at that point. I see
the sense in it. Its crystal clear to me, now. It wasn't at first.
This type of questioning could be applied to all sorts of topics, we've all
seen them, from chores to going to church. Doesn't it just permeate into
all parts of our lives if we practice respectful parenting? With my family
we first started homeschooling in an ecletic type style, then went to
unschooling, then the unschooling went into practically every crevice of
our lives. It was the whole snowball effect. :)
So then it goes back to where the parent is in that awareness. Also maybe
what the objective of the parent is. If a person is caught up in a child
learning certain things, its pretty hard to be ok with what the child wants
now. If a person's objective is the child's happiness, well, then I think
its alot easier to foster the unschooling environment.
Maybe it depends alot on where the parent's mindset is.
Maybe it depends on the level of acceptance they are at. Acceptance of their
children's choices and also acceptance of what other people have to say if
one is discussing unschooling. I guess my mind goes to people who come to
discussions looking for resurrance or that they are doing things OK. Like
with the whole restrictions thing. In a different place they might get
the pat on the back, here or other places you're going to be questioned on
it. At that point I think is where a person can either open up their mind
and think through what they are doing. Or they can shut down and say, "
no, that doesn't/won't work". Possibly getting defensive and all that.
That might be where a person either stops at one level or goes on to the
next.
I guess it comes down to how far an individual lets unschooling go. Does it
encompass your whole life or does it stop with the learning; but wouldn't
a true unschooler say the learning never stops so why would the unschooling?
:)
Kelli~
~who is not saying she is at the top level <g> just making some
observations that have been jumping around in my brain the last few weeks~
*** Some people's first move is to be angry
that
> anyone else thinks they know more about unschooling than others. I getharsh
> insults every few weeks by people who show up cocky and overconfident andto
> clueless and unbalanced (one way or another).
>
> I don't think the answer is for those who have been helping others to stop
> doing that. I don't think the answer is for us to deny for all time even
> each other that there ARE beginning levels and more advanced levels.Joyce
> Fetteroll said something on UnschoolingDiscussion last month aboutsomething being
> too difficult for beginners (which might be what inspired Kelly's upcomingit
> article, or not) and my first response was fear and then laughter (I kept
> private). She was right, it was just the idea that she WROTE it and putit out
> in public.I'm glad you brought this up. And glad I finally got your whole post. <g>
>
> Do we need to bury that idea again or can we safely discuss it?***
I hope we can discuss it.
I was going to post something last week on some what of the same subject,
but never did. I'm glad it was you that started it. <g>
I do think there are some sort of levels in unschooling.
I don't think we can call it beginner, intermediate or advanced. Of course
you can't
put labels on it that way. (I know Kelly was joking around earlier when she
referred to the list that way, but we know what she means.) There are
different levels of
awareness in it. Maybe its how far a person wants it to permiate into their
life. But yet that's when we start getting into trouble. <g> Because
isn't unschooling living your life, so isn't it going to encompass it?
What hit me and what got me thinking last week was a simple statement from
someone on one of the lists, something like, "they are finally off the
Playstation" or equally "they are finally doing something other than video
games". These types of statements now jump out at me. When I first
started unschooling, I'm sure I would have said the same thing and not
blinked twice at the statements.
Now as I read something like that, it really bothers me. I don't always
respond to comments like these because people aren't always ready to hear
the criticism. Which could be good or bad of me, in helping them
understand unschooling. I want to say something to the effect of "so what
if they are still playing video games?" Isn't a big part of
unschooling, accepting where our children are? My child might end up
designing games, programming, testing games, what-ever.
Isn't that a good place to be in? I think so.
I think that is the beauty of unschooling. But I'm at that point. I see
the sense in it. Its crystal clear to me, now. It wasn't at first.
This type of questioning could be applied to all sorts of topics, we've all
seen them, from chores to going to church. Doesn't it just permeate into
all parts of our lives if we practice respectful parenting? With my family
we first started homeschooling in an ecletic type style, then went to
unschooling, then the unschooling went into practically every crevice of
our lives. It was the whole snowball effect. :)
So then it goes back to where the parent is in that awareness. Also maybe
what the objective of the parent is. If a person is caught up in a child
learning certain things, its pretty hard to be ok with what the child wants
now. If a person's objective is the child's happiness, well, then I think
its alot easier to foster the unschooling environment.
Maybe it depends alot on where the parent's mindset is.
Maybe it depends on the level of acceptance they are at. Acceptance of their
children's choices and also acceptance of what other people have to say if
one is discussing unschooling. I guess my mind goes to people who come to
discussions looking for resurrance or that they are doing things OK. Like
with the whole restrictions thing. In a different place they might get
the pat on the back, here or other places you're going to be questioned on
it. At that point I think is where a person can either open up their mind
and think through what they are doing. Or they can shut down and say, "
no, that doesn't/won't work". Possibly getting defensive and all that.
That might be where a person either stops at one level or goes on to the
next.
I guess it comes down to how far an individual lets unschooling go. Does it
encompass your whole life or does it stop with the learning; but wouldn't
a true unschooler say the learning never stops so why would the unschooling?
:)
Kelli~
~who is not saying she is at the top level <g> just making some
observations that have been jumping around in my brain the last few weeks~
Louise Robbins
Hi!
I am new to unschooling and I think I could heartily agree that
there must be higher levels of unschooling understanding, it surely
is called experience?!!
My thoughts so far to move forward is to really get a feel for the
way Guy learns and then make as much as I can available to him (and
Elinor my 2 year old) so that he follows interests and is introduced
to new things.
So you go for it you experienced people, but just make sure you help
us newies out.
As for this being a place for experienced unschoolers... If I wanted
to learn something specific I would go to the person/s that are most
knowledgeable on the subject I needed to know, I would go to the
library (archives, past posts), I would listen to others and not
necessarily interrupt, but try it out and then share the results.
This is what we want our children to learn isn't it?
You know one thing we always said at school (when I was full time
teaching) was that childrens research skills are poor. Research
skills are the key to learning and knowledge is the lock!
You're the lock people!!!
Louise <<winsome smile!>>
I am new to unschooling and I think I could heartily agree that
there must be higher levels of unschooling understanding, it surely
is called experience?!!
My thoughts so far to move forward is to really get a feel for the
way Guy learns and then make as much as I can available to him (and
Elinor my 2 year old) so that he follows interests and is introduced
to new things.
So you go for it you experienced people, but just make sure you help
us newies out.
As for this being a place for experienced unschoolers... If I wanted
to learn something specific I would go to the person/s that are most
knowledgeable on the subject I needed to know, I would go to the
library (archives, past posts), I would listen to others and not
necessarily interrupt, but try it out and then share the results.
This is what we want our children to learn isn't it?
You know one thing we always said at school (when I was full time
teaching) was that childrens research skills are poor. Research
skills are the key to learning and knowledge is the lock!
You're the lock people!!!
Louise <<winsome smile!>>
Louise Robbins
Another thing on the lines of "letting children do what they want to
do as they will be learning" is something I read on a web page about
autistic children. It rather hammers the point home, but is
interesting nonetheless.
The article was about a little boy who's interest surrounded toilets
(OK I hear you giggling!!) Weeell, he recorded all the different
toilets, size, make etc. etc. Who'd be worried huh!!??
Anyway he later went on to be the head of a company that designs and
makes toilets!
Learning at it's best!
Louise ;)
do as they will be learning" is something I read on a web page about
autistic children. It rather hammers the point home, but is
interesting nonetheless.
The article was about a little boy who's interest surrounded toilets
(OK I hear you giggling!!) Weeell, he recorded all the different
toilets, size, make etc. etc. Who'd be worried huh!!??
Anyway he later went on to be the head of a company that designs and
makes toilets!
Learning at it's best!
Louise ;)
Barbara Chase
>We can play Yoda on lists like this, but we can't lift your child out ofI loved this image!! Yes, at times I feel like I am totally in the dark
>the mire of school. You have to believe that you can do it, and then you
>have to maintain your resolve and your balance and your focus for years.
like Luke. Believing in what??? If you could only just show it to me,
then maybe I'd get it. But that's not really how it works, and I know
that. Sometimes, I just close my eyes to find the path.
>I don't think the answer is for us to deny for all time even toHere's another way of thinking about this... there are various levels even
>each other that there ARE beginning levels and more advanced levels.
within ourselves. I haven't been thinking about or living the ideas of
unschooling for very long... so I think of myself as a beginner. But, if I
am open w/o expectation I might actually come up with something that might
even be helpful to Sandra - who has been at it for a long time. (Well, a
girl can dream!!) Anyway, I think the reverse is also true... I believe
that Sandra would be open to receiving some new insight from a newbie like
me or anyone else as well. So, it's like life... we are all beginners and
we're all advanced at the same time. (I love paradoxes btw.)
Isn't this part of the unschooling path? It's not bound, it's limitless!!
It's not something with any certainty, but in each moment it is glorious.
BTW, Sandra... please put your post on your website. It's worth saving!
Namaste
--bc--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
I think it's safe and interesting to discuss, and look forward to reading
other responses on the meat of what you wrote.
But, doing my Border Collie look-at-the-whole-field-at-once thing <g>, I
wonder what we can do with it we've got it, other than to caveat, "Look,
unschooling doesn't work for all parents, even though it works for all kids
given the right family situation" (and yes, I do believe that, but would
welcome debate on it as well).
I might think and might mostly be right (or not, haven't really tried to
"follow up" on my guesses on this one) that I can i.d. the
unschooling-wannabes who will "get it" at some point or another versus those
who won't, but what do I do with that? Tell them? That would probably not go
over well.
When I got your two partial posts this morning, they got my just-awake brain
wandering to what maybe new unschoolers most need to hear about the
unschooled environment, which I think is 99% of unschooling anyway.
Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people who love each
other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to be happy
and peaceful. It does not work in a house full of people who resent each
other for real or imagined flaws and failings."
Pam
----------
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] the real question/newness (if any) is in the
middle
Date: Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 8:45 AM
I don't think the answer is for those who have been helping others to stop
doing that. I don't think the answer is for us to deny for all time even
to
each other that there ARE beginning levels and more advanced levels. Joyce
Fetteroll said something on UnschoolingDiscussion last month about something
being
too difficult for beginners (which might be what inspired Kelly's upcoming
article, or not) and my first response was fear and then laughter (I kept it
private). She was right, it was just the idea that she WROTE it and put it
out
in public.
Do we need to bury that idea again or can we safely discuss it?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
other responses on the meat of what you wrote.
But, doing my Border Collie look-at-the-whole-field-at-once thing <g>, I
wonder what we can do with it we've got it, other than to caveat, "Look,
unschooling doesn't work for all parents, even though it works for all kids
given the right family situation" (and yes, I do believe that, but would
welcome debate on it as well).
I might think and might mostly be right (or not, haven't really tried to
"follow up" on my guesses on this one) that I can i.d. the
unschooling-wannabes who will "get it" at some point or another versus those
who won't, but what do I do with that? Tell them? That would probably not go
over well.
When I got your two partial posts this morning, they got my just-awake brain
wandering to what maybe new unschoolers most need to hear about the
unschooled environment, which I think is 99% of unschooling anyway.
Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people who love each
other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to be happy
and peaceful. It does not work in a house full of people who resent each
other for real or imagined flaws and failings."
Pam
----------
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] the real question/newness (if any) is in the
middle
Date: Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 8:45 AM
I don't think the answer is for those who have been helping others to stop
doing that. I don't think the answer is for us to deny for all time even
to
each other that there ARE beginning levels and more advanced levels. Joyce
Fetteroll said something on UnschoolingDiscussion last month about something
being
too difficult for beginners (which might be what inspired Kelly's upcoming
article, or not) and my first response was fear and then laughter (I kept it
private). She was right, it was just the idea that she WROTE it and put it
out
in public.
Do we need to bury that idea again or can we safely discuss it?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
I think it's safe and interesting to discuss, and look forward to reading
other responses on the meat of what you wrote.
But, doing my Border Collie look-at-the-whole-field-at-once thing <g>, I
wonder what we can do with it we've got it, other than to caveat, "Look,
unschooling doesn't work for all parents, even though it works for all kids
given the right family situation" (and yes, I do believe that, but would
welcome debate on it as well).
I might think and might mostly be right (or not, haven't really tried to
"follow up" on my guesses on this one) that I can i.d. the
unschooling-wannabes who will "get it" at some point or another versus those
who won't, but what do I do with that? Tell them? That would probably not go
over well.
When I got your two partial posts this morning, they got my just-awake brain
wandering to what maybe new unschoolers most need to hear about the
unschooled environment, which I think is 99% of unschooling anyway.
Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people who love each
other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to be happy
and peaceful. It does not work in a house full of people who resent each
other for real or imagined flaws and failings."
Pam
----------
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] the real question/newness (if any) is in the
middle
Date: Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 8:45 AM
I don't think the answer is for those who have been helping others to stop
doing that. I don't think the answer is for us to deny for all time even
to
each other that there ARE beginning levels and more advanced levels. Joyce
Fetteroll said something on UnschoolingDiscussion last month about something
being
too difficult for beginners (which might be what inspired Kelly's upcoming
article, or not) and my first response was fear and then laughter (I kept it
private). She was right, it was just the idea that she WROTE it and put it
out
in public.
Do we need to bury that idea again or can we safely discuss it?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
other responses on the meat of what you wrote.
But, doing my Border Collie look-at-the-whole-field-at-once thing <g>, I
wonder what we can do with it we've got it, other than to caveat, "Look,
unschooling doesn't work for all parents, even though it works for all kids
given the right family situation" (and yes, I do believe that, but would
welcome debate on it as well).
I might think and might mostly be right (or not, haven't really tried to
"follow up" on my guesses on this one) that I can i.d. the
unschooling-wannabes who will "get it" at some point or another versus those
who won't, but what do I do with that? Tell them? That would probably not go
over well.
When I got your two partial posts this morning, they got my just-awake brain
wandering to what maybe new unschoolers most need to hear about the
unschooled environment, which I think is 99% of unschooling anyway.
Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people who love each
other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to be happy
and peaceful. It does not work in a house full of people who resent each
other for real or imagined flaws and failings."
Pam
----------
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] the real question/newness (if any) is in the
middle
Date: Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 8:45 AM
I don't think the answer is for those who have been helping others to stop
doing that. I don't think the answer is for us to deny for all time even
to
each other that there ARE beginning levels and more advanced levels. Joyce
Fetteroll said something on UnschoolingDiscussion last month about something
being
too difficult for beginners (which might be what inspired Kelly's upcoming
article, or not) and my first response was fear and then laughter (I kept it
private). She was right, it was just the idea that she WROTE it and put it
out
in public.
Do we need to bury that idea again or can we safely discuss it?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:06:03 -0800 "Pam Hartley"
<pamhartley@...> writes:
Hey, I never thought of it that way, but my border collie sure does do
that. Today I let the dogs out to play and then went to call them in and
they didn't come... finally Nana (the border collie) came running up,
licked my hand, then ran 20 feet or so back the way she had come and
looked back like she wanted me to follow. So I did, and she led me to our
old lab, who had gotten himself stuck in the branches of a small
fallen-down tree. When I got there and called him he came out... he had a
bad arthritis attack a few days ago and has been on something
prescription for it, and I wonder if it's affectng his mental state
because he seems more confused... but anyway, Nana did the Lassie thing
superbly - "Come quick, Keithie's fallen into a well!"
list up in arms...
I tend to talk about unschooling working best (or at all) when parents
have certain values. If you value knowing that your child's academic
skills are as good as or better than other kid his age, you'll have a
hard time with unschooling. Ditto if you value having a child who will
follow rules without questioning, or will chose a "balanced" variety of
activities, of a child who has an all-consuming passion. These things may
happen, but I don't think it's fair to count on any of them.
OTOH, If you value allowing your child to grow and learn at his own pace,
you're on the unschooling road. Ditto if you value happiness
(here-and-now happiness, not "He'll be glad later that I made him
practice piano/learn cursive/read Tom Sawyer now"), and freedom... I
really think it all comes down to freedom. And freer people are happier
people, and they're easier to live with and more fun to be with, imo...
Dar
<pamhartley@...> writes:
> But, doing my Border Collie look-at-the-whole-field-at-once thing <g>,I
Hey, I never thought of it that way, but my border collie sure does do
that. Today I let the dogs out to play and then went to call them in and
they didn't come... finally Nana (the border collie) came running up,
licked my hand, then ran 20 feet or so back the way she had come and
looked back like she wanted me to follow. So I did, and she led me to our
old lab, who had gotten himself stuck in the branches of a small
fallen-down tree. When I got there and called him he came out... he had a
bad arthritis attack a few days ago and has been on something
prescription for it, and I wonder if it's affectng his mental state
because he seems more confused... but anyway, Nana did the Lassie thing
superbly - "Come quick, Keithie's fallen into a well!"
> wonder what we can do with it we've got it, other than to caveat,"Look,
> unschooling doesn't work for all parents, even though it works for allkids
> given the right family situation" (and yes, I do believe that, butwould
> welcome debate on it as well).I think that's true, and I've said it, and gotten half of a large mailing
list up in arms...
I tend to talk about unschooling working best (or at all) when parents
have certain values. If you value knowing that your child's academic
skills are as good as or better than other kid his age, you'll have a
hard time with unschooling. Ditto if you value having a child who will
follow rules without questioning, or will chose a "balanced" variety of
activities, of a child who has an all-consuming passion. These things may
happen, but I don't think it's fair to count on any of them.
OTOH, If you value allowing your child to grow and learn at his own pace,
you're on the unschooling road. Ditto if you value happiness
(here-and-now happiness, not "He'll be glad later that I made him
practice piano/learn cursive/read Tom Sawyer now"), and freedom... I
really think it all comes down to freedom. And freer people are happier
people, and they're easier to live with and more fun to be with, imo...
Dar
veejie72
--- In [email protected], "Pam Hartley" <pamhartley@m...> wrote:
hand you could easily say, "Oh, unschooling isn't for everyone," and on some level
you'd be right. But I think that -- in theory -- unschooling could work for anyone/
everyone, but only if they really throw themselves into the mindset wholeheartedly
and give it a real chance to take root.
It's tempting to say that unschooling is only for certain types of people because then
we can be the rebels, the mavericks who are blazing a bitchin' new trail. It's scary to
most people to imagine a world with no schools. Would society fall apart? Or would it
be better?
It's easy for some family to say, "We tried it and it didn't work." What does "tried"
mean? That you took your kids out of school for three months and when they weren't
winning spelling bees or solving quadratic equations but rather were watching TV,
playing video games or surfing the web you decided the experiment was a failure?
What does "work" mean? (Not to get too Clinton-ish with defining simple words, lol.)
For one family it might mean the difference between discord and harmony, the
difference between having an antagonistic mistrustful relationship with kids you
hardly ever see and having a close relationship with kids you are really proud of. That
could be considered "working" in some families.
In other families it's not working unless the child is performing light years ahead of
grade level, or demonstrating a clear trajectory that will land them in a certain field,
be it medicine, law, aeronautics, etc.
For me, there are no people in the world I would rather spend time with than my
husband and daughter. The thought of saying goodbye to her for 13 years except for
a few hurried stressful moments in the morning and a few moments (probably spent
nagging about homework) in the evening is repugnant to me.
I think back on what I learned in school and even though I'm only 31, I don't
remember much that was good or useful. I can't add or subtract easily in my head,
and forget about higher math. I couldn't tell you squat about history besides what I've
read as an adult. I don't remember diddly about the periodic table or any of the laws
of physics that were drilled into my head. I only remember what interested me: books
and authors, grammar, poetry, art, music, biology. And I went to a private school!
Imagine the amazing unschooling experiences I could have had for $15K per year for
13 years!
What I DO I remember is countless moments of frustration and humiliation, at the
hands of my teachers and especially my peers. Why on earth would I subject my
daughter to that? It would probably be worse for her, since I can't afford to send her
to private school. Plus she is spirited and sensitive and stubborn, three things that
won't help her in the school environment. I was already so thoroughly "broken" by my
distastrous home environment that I hadn't any spark left to rock the boat at all, so I
just went with the program meekly. I can't see dd being that resigned and self-
negating. I certainly don't plan to break my daughter's spirit, and I'm not about to
stand by and let it happen in a school.
I don't care what she decides to do with her life. It's her life. All I want for her is to
enjoy her childhood, something many children don't get to do. When she is older, I
want her to be able to pursue what she is interested in, whatever that may turn out to
be. I won't judge. And when she is an adult, I don't want her to be suddenly thrust out
into the world with no idea of how it really works, or to be trapped in a McJob,
deferring her happiness until retirement.
I think that most people who unschool are giving their children an amazing gift: the
gift of being able to be a child. There is no rush. All that needs to be learned will be
learned, each thing in it's own time, in a natural way. There is also plenty of time for
learning what the real world is like, how to navigate the world safely, how to handle
money, how to deal with different types of people and situations.
I think that parents who unschool are also showing their children, "You are worth it,"
by choosing (for example) to be a single income family and doing without certain
things to make unschooling possible, by choosing to be with them day in and day out,
by strewing their paths with interesting experiences and listening to them whenever
they want to talk, whatever they want to say, without judging or belittling. If children
are raised to feel they deserve a good, fulfilling life, they are not going to be content
in a McJob. They most likely will not get trapped in a toxic relationship, romatic or
platonic.
In my opinion it is 99% guaranteed to work if you really pratice true unschooling. But
to bring up Yoda again, you can't just "try" you have to "do." Please all of you keep in
mind that everything I wrote above is just my opinion. My dd is only 8 months old so I
can't say conclusively, "unschooling worked for me." However I promise to keep you
all posted on whether I was right or not!
-Vijay
> I think it's safe and interesting to discuss, and look forward to readingI think this is fascinating! It's a discussion that operates on several levels. On the one
> other responses on the meat of what you wrote.
>
> But, doing my Border Collie look-at-the-whole-field-at-once thing <g>, I
> wonder what we can do with it we've got it, other than to caveat, "Look,
> unschooling doesn't work for all parents, even though it works for all kids
> given the right family situation" (and yes, I do believe that, but would
> welcome debate on it as well).
>
> I might think and might mostly be right (or not, haven't really tried to
> "follow up" on my guesses on this one) that I can i.d. the
> unschooling-wannabes who will "get it" at some point or another versus those
> who won't, but what do I do with that? Tell them? That would probably not go
> over well.
>
hand you could easily say, "Oh, unschooling isn't for everyone," and on some level
you'd be right. But I think that -- in theory -- unschooling could work for anyone/
everyone, but only if they really throw themselves into the mindset wholeheartedly
and give it a real chance to take root.
It's tempting to say that unschooling is only for certain types of people because then
we can be the rebels, the mavericks who are blazing a bitchin' new trail. It's scary to
most people to imagine a world with no schools. Would society fall apart? Or would it
be better?
It's easy for some family to say, "We tried it and it didn't work." What does "tried"
mean? That you took your kids out of school for three months and when they weren't
winning spelling bees or solving quadratic equations but rather were watching TV,
playing video games or surfing the web you decided the experiment was a failure?
What does "work" mean? (Not to get too Clinton-ish with defining simple words, lol.)
For one family it might mean the difference between discord and harmony, the
difference between having an antagonistic mistrustful relationship with kids you
hardly ever see and having a close relationship with kids you are really proud of. That
could be considered "working" in some families.
In other families it's not working unless the child is performing light years ahead of
grade level, or demonstrating a clear trajectory that will land them in a certain field,
be it medicine, law, aeronautics, etc.
For me, there are no people in the world I would rather spend time with than my
husband and daughter. The thought of saying goodbye to her for 13 years except for
a few hurried stressful moments in the morning and a few moments (probably spent
nagging about homework) in the evening is repugnant to me.
I think back on what I learned in school and even though I'm only 31, I don't
remember much that was good or useful. I can't add or subtract easily in my head,
and forget about higher math. I couldn't tell you squat about history besides what I've
read as an adult. I don't remember diddly about the periodic table or any of the laws
of physics that were drilled into my head. I only remember what interested me: books
and authors, grammar, poetry, art, music, biology. And I went to a private school!
Imagine the amazing unschooling experiences I could have had for $15K per year for
13 years!
What I DO I remember is countless moments of frustration and humiliation, at the
hands of my teachers and especially my peers. Why on earth would I subject my
daughter to that? It would probably be worse for her, since I can't afford to send her
to private school. Plus she is spirited and sensitive and stubborn, three things that
won't help her in the school environment. I was already so thoroughly "broken" by my
distastrous home environment that I hadn't any spark left to rock the boat at all, so I
just went with the program meekly. I can't see dd being that resigned and self-
negating. I certainly don't plan to break my daughter's spirit, and I'm not about to
stand by and let it happen in a school.
I don't care what she decides to do with her life. It's her life. All I want for her is to
enjoy her childhood, something many children don't get to do. When she is older, I
want her to be able to pursue what she is interested in, whatever that may turn out to
be. I won't judge. And when she is an adult, I don't want her to be suddenly thrust out
into the world with no idea of how it really works, or to be trapped in a McJob,
deferring her happiness until retirement.
I think that most people who unschool are giving their children an amazing gift: the
gift of being able to be a child. There is no rush. All that needs to be learned will be
learned, each thing in it's own time, in a natural way. There is also plenty of time for
learning what the real world is like, how to navigate the world safely, how to handle
money, how to deal with different types of people and situations.
I think that parents who unschool are also showing their children, "You are worth it,"
by choosing (for example) to be a single income family and doing without certain
things to make unschooling possible, by choosing to be with them day in and day out,
by strewing their paths with interesting experiences and listening to them whenever
they want to talk, whatever they want to say, without judging or belittling. If children
are raised to feel they deserve a good, fulfilling life, they are not going to be content
in a McJob. They most likely will not get trapped in a toxic relationship, romatic or
platonic.
In my opinion it is 99% guaranteed to work if you really pratice true unschooling. But
to bring up Yoda again, you can't just "try" you have to "do." Please all of you keep in
mind that everything I wrote above is just my opinion. My dd is only 8 months old so I
can't say conclusively, "unschooling worked for me." However I promise to keep you
all posted on whether I was right or not!
-Vijay
Barbara Chase
>Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people who love eachahhh, but I know I've been in situations where I "think" I'm being loving
>other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to be happy
>and peaceful. It does not work in a house full of people who resent each
>other for real or imagined flaws and failings."
and going out of my way to help my dd when I end up catching myself
teaching her. I know because she just sort of gets this blank look... like
what planet did you all of a sudden come from? So whereas I agree with
you, if you are saying this to someone who doesn't know about unschooling
or to a newbie it is likely to go right over their head.
--bc--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barbara Chase
>deferring her happiness until retirement.This phrase really caught my eye... About 3 years before our dd was born my
dh and I both chose to leave big city paying jobs to live rurally, and to
live more in the moment. The money afforded us time to travel, to get away
from our lives, to save for the "some day when we retire" cycle, but we
wanted to be living our lives now! It hasn't been easy, but perhaps this
was the first step to our attraction to unschooling. Interesting.....
--bc--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/04 5:11:04 PM, pamhartley@... writes:
<< Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people who love each
other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to be happy
and peaceful. It does not work in a house full of people who resent each
other for real or imagined flaws and failings." >>
I've been stating it in Tarzan/Frankenstein terms: "Cynicism bad."
Kinda related. I'll save yours for future distribution, pre-test and final
exam.
Sandra
Joking, really.
Honest.
<< Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people who love each
other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to be happy
and peaceful. It does not work in a house full of people who resent each
other for real or imagined flaws and failings." >>
I've been stating it in Tarzan/Frankenstein terms: "Cynicism bad."
Kinda related. I'll save yours for future distribution, pre-test and final
exam.
Sandra
Joking, really.
Honest.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/04 6:48:26 PM, barb@... writes:
<< ahhh, but I know I've been in situations where I "think" I'm being loving
and going out of my way to help my dd when I end up catching myself
teaching her. >>
But was that for her immediate peace and happiness? Or her potential
theoretical future peace and happiness? Maybe the proposed ideal unschooling
situation needs to be -=-Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people
who love each other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to
be happy and peaceful **now, not when they're grown.** (Or something suaver.)
Sandra
<< ahhh, but I know I've been in situations where I "think" I'm being loving
and going out of my way to help my dd when I end up catching myself
teaching her. >>
But was that for her immediate peace and happiness? Or her potential
theoretical future peace and happiness? Maybe the proposed ideal unschooling
situation needs to be -=-Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people
who love each other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to
be happy and peaceful **now, not when they're grown.** (Or something suaver.)
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/04 4:25:58 PM, barb@... writes:
<< But, if I
am open w/o expectation I might actually come up with something that might
even be helpful to Sandra - who has been at it for a long time. (Well, a
girl can dream!!) >>
Even though I had been seriously planning to be a teacher from the time I was
six and I paid a lot of attention to it, it was *SO* school-focussed, that to
me until I was nearly 30, school was (for me) the real world. It took me
quite a while to really appreciate that there were people who had never gone to
college who didn't feel like they lost out on "real life," who didn't WANT to
go, who had really honestly chosen not to go to college.
Then it took me a while to really appreciate that someone could be an expert
BIGtime in something without "studying" it with a teacher, but just doing, and
reading, and experimenting, and going to museums, and talking to others who
were doing, reading and experimenting. That knowledge came from my time in
the SCA, getting to know armorers and costumers and calligraphers who started
knowing ZIP before they started doing that, and some have gotten so good they
do contract work from time to time for living history museums, projects like
The Mary Rose (ship restoration), movies, restoration of real antiques (museum
stuff), and not beause they have degrees in anything, but because they are
competent and honest and real.
I learned on AOL from advice given by another unschooling mom that it's bad
to condemn a whole day by saying "having a bad day," so she only ever said
"having a bad moment," so the next moment could be better! That changed my life.
There's more life changing stuff to tell, but I'm going to watch TV with
Keith for an hour. Everwood, his soap opera.
Sandra
<< But, if I
am open w/o expectation I might actually come up with something that might
even be helpful to Sandra - who has been at it for a long time. (Well, a
girl can dream!!) >>
Even though I had been seriously planning to be a teacher from the time I was
six and I paid a lot of attention to it, it was *SO* school-focussed, that to
me until I was nearly 30, school was (for me) the real world. It took me
quite a while to really appreciate that there were people who had never gone to
college who didn't feel like they lost out on "real life," who didn't WANT to
go, who had really honestly chosen not to go to college.
Then it took me a while to really appreciate that someone could be an expert
BIGtime in something without "studying" it with a teacher, but just doing, and
reading, and experimenting, and going to museums, and talking to others who
were doing, reading and experimenting. That knowledge came from my time in
the SCA, getting to know armorers and costumers and calligraphers who started
knowing ZIP before they started doing that, and some have gotten so good they
do contract work from time to time for living history museums, projects like
The Mary Rose (ship restoration), movies, restoration of real antiques (museum
stuff), and not beause they have degrees in anything, but because they are
competent and honest and real.
I learned on AOL from advice given by another unschooling mom that it's bad
to condemn a whole day by saying "having a bad day," so she only ever said
"having a bad moment," so the next moment could be better! That changed my life.
There's more life changing stuff to tell, but I'm going to watch TV with
Keith for an hour. Everwood, his soap opera.
Sandra
mozafamily
Hello - I would consider myself new to unschooling although I am
learning as fast as I am able about it. Because I dream big I would
like to think that unschooling can be a reality for everyone
especially if more unschooling communities develop instead of
schools to cover where home unschooling is impractical. But you all
have probably figured that out about me already :) so what I would
like to add to this discussion is that unschooling will be much
easier to talk with people about when there is even more written and
discussed on the subject, the more people are "subjected"
or "exposed" to new ideas the more the ideas become real or probable
to them. Just as homeschooling is a bit easier today that it was 20
years ago because more people are doing it and more has been written
and "media" -ed about it so we could hopefully conclude that the
more people know about unschooling then the more people will be
willing to accept it.
I am so definately new to unschooling because as I read one of the
earlier posts on this topic it poped out at me why the "newbies" to
unschooling say something like "their child stopped watching TV
today and actually spent some time reading" meaning that perhaps
they thought the only activity of value to their child for the day
was the reading, that they didn't place the same value on TV viewing
as they did reading. I think unschoolers believe that ANY activity
the child wishes to do of their own occord should have value - that
more value shouldn't be placed on one activity than another.
So that is where I am - my ds is doing activities that matter to him
and he is definately developing even more of his sturdiness as I
like to call it. OK not that "Mom - I'm busy" or when I'm explaining
something he ask about that he usually abruptly stops me the second
he "gets it" and usually stops me mid-sentence with a "Stop - I
understand" or "Yeah, I know" or the RARE "OK - Thanks" then walks
immediately off, LOL! So what I have learned so far from this
beginning "level" is that being an unschooling student's mom is not
all happy and hugs (although we have those times also) but that you
best have some tough skin and somekind of activity or hobby to keep
yourself busy when your children don't need your attentions, because
it's not as if you have to entertain or be "teacher" to your child
as much as perhaps just be there for them when they need you. Am I
still following what most of you consider to be unschooling?
learning as fast as I am able about it. Because I dream big I would
like to think that unschooling can be a reality for everyone
especially if more unschooling communities develop instead of
schools to cover where home unschooling is impractical. But you all
have probably figured that out about me already :) so what I would
like to add to this discussion is that unschooling will be much
easier to talk with people about when there is even more written and
discussed on the subject, the more people are "subjected"
or "exposed" to new ideas the more the ideas become real or probable
to them. Just as homeschooling is a bit easier today that it was 20
years ago because more people are doing it and more has been written
and "media" -ed about it so we could hopefully conclude that the
more people know about unschooling then the more people will be
willing to accept it.
I am so definately new to unschooling because as I read one of the
earlier posts on this topic it poped out at me why the "newbies" to
unschooling say something like "their child stopped watching TV
today and actually spent some time reading" meaning that perhaps
they thought the only activity of value to their child for the day
was the reading, that they didn't place the same value on TV viewing
as they did reading. I think unschoolers believe that ANY activity
the child wishes to do of their own occord should have value - that
more value shouldn't be placed on one activity than another.
So that is where I am - my ds is doing activities that matter to him
and he is definately developing even more of his sturdiness as I
like to call it. OK not that "Mom - I'm busy" or when I'm explaining
something he ask about that he usually abruptly stops me the second
he "gets it" and usually stops me mid-sentence with a "Stop - I
understand" or "Yeah, I know" or the RARE "OK - Thanks" then walks
immediately off, LOL! So what I have learned so far from this
beginning "level" is that being an unschooling student's mom is not
all happy and hugs (although we have those times also) but that you
best have some tough skin and somekind of activity or hobby to keep
yourself busy when your children don't need your attentions, because
it's not as if you have to entertain or be "teacher" to your child
as much as perhaps just be there for them when they need you. Am I
still following what most of you consider to be unschooling?
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/04 7:37:00 PM, berryhead@... writes:
<<
It's tempting to say that unschooling is only for certain types of people
because then
we can be the rebels, the mavericks who are blazing a bitchin' new trail. >>
I think travelling from Missouri to Oregon was only for certain types of
people in 1830 or whenever they were doing that movie-photogenic thang. Me, I
stay where I am. I'm really familiar knowing how to read local clouds, knowing
the local food, being able to visit places I played as a kid, and know where
lots of my friends are because if they're gone I know where their moms or
brothers are. I personally can't imagine moving a thousand miles away in the days
before telephones or even decent postal service. Not me.
Yet all my grandparents did. People didn't move to Texas or New Mexico by
train, when my great and great-greats or however far back came to Texas and New
Mexico. They were leaving the country, in most cases.
Not even everyone would have been physically able, or morally able, or find a
marriage partner who was into it, strong enough, creative enough, flexible
enough, crazy enough, able to build a cabin and plant when they got there, able
to hunt, and so for and so on.
It wasn't one skill or personality trait they needed.
Yet once a bunch of them got there it was easier for others to come.
That might happen with unschooling too, to some extent.
Now when people go to Oregon they're going TO civilization.
I don't know if that applies, but some of it will apply in some people's
world-models and analogy-jumbles, maybe.
<<It's scary to most people to imagine a world with no schools. Would society
fall apart? Or would it be better? >>
Europe was still full of people when big batches of them started going to the
Americas.
The east cost was still full when the Appalachians and the Midwest started
being populated, and so forth.
Schools will never disappear.
<<I think that most people who unschool are giving their children an amazing
gift: the
gift of being able to be a child. There is no rush. All that needs to be
learned will be
learned, each thing in it's own time, in a natural way. There is also plenty
of time for
learning what the real world is like,>>
I agree, and I remind myself sometimes that the reason this is doable is that
people do NOT have to build their own cabins by hand, hunt, dig wells, plant
with a horse-drawn plow, make clothes from feedsacks and wash them in water
drawn up by hand, heated over a fire or on a woodstove, and so forth and so on.
What makes this work is modern life, the internet, the constant flow of
printed word, television, newspapers everywhere, really decent magazines like
Smithsonian and National Geographic, radios and calculators cheap to free at every
hand.
<<Please all of you keep in
mind that everything I wrote above is just my opinion. My dd is only 8 months
old so I
can't say conclusively, "unschooling worked for me." However I promise to
keep you
all posted on whether I was right or not!
only and a baby, and we rolled our eyes but by god we took notes sometimes,
because she was pretty clear thinking and sharp writing! And look at her now.
All courage and confidence and experience, because (it seems) she never
faltered and never doubted.
Sandra
<<
It's tempting to say that unschooling is only for certain types of people
because then
we can be the rebels, the mavericks who are blazing a bitchin' new trail. >>
I think travelling from Missouri to Oregon was only for certain types of
people in 1830 or whenever they were doing that movie-photogenic thang. Me, I
stay where I am. I'm really familiar knowing how to read local clouds, knowing
the local food, being able to visit places I played as a kid, and know where
lots of my friends are because if they're gone I know where their moms or
brothers are. I personally can't imagine moving a thousand miles away in the days
before telephones or even decent postal service. Not me.
Yet all my grandparents did. People didn't move to Texas or New Mexico by
train, when my great and great-greats or however far back came to Texas and New
Mexico. They were leaving the country, in most cases.
Not even everyone would have been physically able, or morally able, or find a
marriage partner who was into it, strong enough, creative enough, flexible
enough, crazy enough, able to build a cabin and plant when they got there, able
to hunt, and so for and so on.
It wasn't one skill or personality trait they needed.
Yet once a bunch of them got there it was easier for others to come.
That might happen with unschooling too, to some extent.
Now when people go to Oregon they're going TO civilization.
I don't know if that applies, but some of it will apply in some people's
world-models and analogy-jumbles, maybe.
<<It's scary to most people to imagine a world with no schools. Would society
fall apart? Or would it be better? >>
Europe was still full of people when big batches of them started going to the
Americas.
The east cost was still full when the Appalachians and the Midwest started
being populated, and so forth.
Schools will never disappear.
<<I think that most people who unschool are giving their children an amazing
gift: the
gift of being able to be a child. There is no rush. All that needs to be
learned will be
learned, each thing in it's own time, in a natural way. There is also plenty
of time for
learning what the real world is like,>>
I agree, and I remind myself sometimes that the reason this is doable is that
people do NOT have to build their own cabins by hand, hunt, dig wells, plant
with a horse-drawn plow, make clothes from feedsacks and wash them in water
drawn up by hand, heated over a fire or on a woodstove, and so forth and so on.
What makes this work is modern life, the internet, the constant flow of
printed word, television, newspapers everywhere, really decent magazines like
Smithsonian and National Geographic, radios and calculators cheap to free at every
hand.
<<Please all of you keep in
mind that everything I wrote above is just my opinion. My dd is only 8 months
old so I
can't say conclusively, "unschooling worked for me." However I promise to
keep you
all posted on whether I was right or not!
>>Oh, Pam Hartley used to wax dramatically poetic when her now-oldest was an
only and a baby, and we rolled our eyes but by god we took notes sometimes,
because she was pretty clear thinking and sharp writing! And look at her now.
All courage and confidence and experience, because (it seems) she never
faltered and never doubted.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/04 9:09:38 PM, mozafamily@... writes:
<< but that you
best have some tough skin and some kind of activity or hobby >>
I still remember the first several times I really wanted to do something
cool, show Kirby how to do something, get him interested in some new kit or
science toy or whatever, and he had no interest whatsoever. He was wanly polite.
I was left standing there with a sparkly 20 minute "lesson" (song 'n' dance)
in my head, and no audience!
I got used to it. It took Keith longer. He used to mutter and grump about
it, about how they obviously didn't care about anything he thought was
important, or that he wasn't going to be very involved in their learning since they
didn't seem very interested in hearing him, etc.
We both got over it. And "it" was our school conditioning saying that if the
kid ASKS something, then he's invited instruction. Sometimes they just want
a one-word answer to a three-word question and that's all they need!
Sandra
<< but that you
best have some tough skin and some kind of activity or hobby >>
I still remember the first several times I really wanted to do something
cool, show Kirby how to do something, get him interested in some new kit or
science toy or whatever, and he had no interest whatsoever. He was wanly polite.
I was left standing there with a sparkly 20 minute "lesson" (song 'n' dance)
in my head, and no audience!
I got used to it. It took Keith longer. He used to mutter and grump about
it, about how they obviously didn't care about anything he thought was
important, or that he wasn't going to be very involved in their learning since they
didn't seem very interested in hearing him, etc.
We both got over it. And "it" was our school conditioning saying that if the
kid ASKS something, then he's invited instruction. Sometimes they just want
a one-word answer to a three-word question and that's all they need!
Sandra
Pam Hartley
"Happiness good." ;)
Pam
----------
Pam
----------
>From: SandraDodd@...middle
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] the real question/newness (if any) is in the
>Date: Mon, Jan 26, 2004, 6:30 PM
>
> << Things like, "unschooling works in a house full of people who love each
> other and are willing to go out of their way to help each other to be happy
> and peaceful. It does not work in a house full of people who resent each
> other for real or imagined flaws and failings." >>
>
> I've been stating it in Tarzan/Frankenstein terms: "Cynicism bad."
Pam Hartley
> Oh, Pam Hartley used to wax dramatically poetic when her now-oldest was an"I'd like to thank the Academy..." <g>
> only and a baby,
That baby turned 9 in November, and is taller than one of her aunts, and
though she didn't walk until she was almost-2 and Sandra put up with a long
freaked-out IM from me on AOL about how her baby pediatrician ((not only was
she a baby, the doc was a baby, just out of med school)) wanted to consider
leg braces) she now runs and climbs and collects arms and armor (the better
to pretend to be Link from Legend of Zelda) just fine. I don't think a day
has gone by when I haven't been happily amazed by something she (and now her
sister) has done or said or known or opined.
> and we rolled our eyes but by god we took notes sometimes,It's easy to be the courageous rookie when you're surrounded by the
> because she was pretty clear thinking and sharp writing! And look at her now.
> All courage and confidence and experience, because (it seems) she never
> faltered and never doubted.
Superbowl Winning Unschooling Team, as AOL's homeschooling forum was in
those days.
And sometimes Brit and Mikey roll their eyes at me <g>, so things have a way
of circling back around again...
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/04 10:14:22 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< I still remember the first several times I really wanted to do something
cool, show Kirby how to do something, get him interested in some new kit or
science toy or whatever, and he had no interest whatsoever. >>
clarification: often he was interested, but when we were really unschooling
and sometimes he wasn't interested in my (overly)exciteable enthusiasm to show
him something, it used to hurt my feelings at first. Now it doesn't.
Sandra
<< I still remember the first several times I really wanted to do something
cool, show Kirby how to do something, get him interested in some new kit or
science toy or whatever, and he had no interest whatsoever. >>
clarification: often he was interested, but when we were really unschooling
and sometimes he wasn't interested in my (overly)exciteable enthusiasm to show
him something, it used to hurt my feelings at first. Now it doesn't.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/04 8:19:20 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:
<< There's more life changing stuff to tell, but I'm going to watch TV with
Keith for an hour. Everwood, his soap opera.
The thing about chores. I sure didn't think that up, but I'm glad someone
did and I'm glad we incorporated it into our other wild living, because it has
made things way more happy here. Maybe not cleaner, but more peaceful, more
cozy, more loving, more cooperative, more all kinds of good things. Except
cleaner. <g> But it's not much messier either. And when I'm cleaning I feel
happy instead of pissy.
Happy instead of pissy cannot be bought, and there are no pills for it, but
you can get it by just changing a few thoughts and terms.
Sandra
<< There's more life changing stuff to tell, but I'm going to watch TV with
Keith for an hour. Everwood, his soap opera.
>>AND...
The thing about chores. I sure didn't think that up, but I'm glad someone
did and I'm glad we incorporated it into our other wild living, because it has
made things way more happy here. Maybe not cleaner, but more peaceful, more
cozy, more loving, more cooperative, more all kinds of good things. Except
cleaner. <g> But it's not much messier either. And when I'm cleaning I feel
happy instead of pissy.
Happy instead of pissy cannot be bought, and there are no pills for it, but
you can get it by just changing a few thoughts and terms.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/26/04 11:35:36 PM, loueliandguy@... writes:
<< I am new to unschooling and I think I could heartily agree that
there must be higher levels of unschooling understanding, it surely
is called experience?!! >>
It's more, though. Someone could stay at the same level of awareness and
practice for years. Experience without examination and analysis and the desire
to tweak it toward improvement isn't necessarily growth.
<<You know one thing we always said at school (when I was full time
teaching) was that childrens research skills are poor. Research
skills are the key to learning and knowledge is the lock!
You're the lock people!!!>>
None of it needs to be locked up. Nobody needs a key. They just need to
learn to be accepting and happy and to live away from people and places that will
squelch their openness and curiosity and joy.
Sandra
<< I am new to unschooling and I think I could heartily agree that
there must be higher levels of unschooling understanding, it surely
is called experience?!! >>
It's more, though. Someone could stay at the same level of awareness and
practice for years. Experience without examination and analysis and the desire
to tweak it toward improvement isn't necessarily growth.
<<You know one thing we always said at school (when I was full time
teaching) was that childrens research skills are poor. Research
skills are the key to learning and knowledge is the lock!
You're the lock people!!!>>
None of it needs to be locked up. Nobody needs a key. They just need to
learn to be accepting and happy and to live away from people and places that will
squelch their openness and curiosity and joy.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/27/04 6:42:53 AM, cen46624@... writes:
<< I don't agree with this (below). I think unschooling was doable (and
widely done) when the skills kids were learning were building cabins,
hunting, digging wells, planting, sewing, drawing water and washing,
building a cook fire, etc.
<<What makes it work for the *modern world* is access to the modern world,
a world of great information and information resources, but what made it
work for pioneers was access to the pioneer world!>>
To an extent I agree. But we are in the modern world, so that model matters.
In 1960, skills and information needed in the modern world were NOT at most
people's houses. They were at few to no houses of average people. Nobody had
a home computer. There weren't even cheap dictionaries yet. Home
dictionaries were big two-volume expensive things. (I have a very small collection of
them.) Some families bought encyclopedias, already outdate by the time they
arrived.
In the 19th century, people wanted and needed schools because books (in the
western U.S. particularly, where people had travelled by covered wagon and
didn't have a trailer full of books) were rare and somewhat suspect. Where books
could arrive by ship and later by train, there were more books. There were
newspapers, but they weren't built to last and they didn't have illustrations
and maps and charts. They had text only (and a few lame little repeated
illustrations that could be set in at the printship). Without books, reading
doesn't get you very far. Bibles and hymnals.
If somone wanted to learn geography or anatomy or chemistry, they just had to
leave home even to get to charts and models. That's not true anymore.
Sandra
<< I don't agree with this (below). I think unschooling was doable (and
widely done) when the skills kids were learning were building cabins,
hunting, digging wells, planting, sewing, drawing water and washing,
building a cook fire, etc.
<<What makes it work for the *modern world* is access to the modern world,
a world of great information and information resources, but what made it
work for pioneers was access to the pioneer world!>>
To an extent I agree. But we are in the modern world, so that model matters.
In 1960, skills and information needed in the modern world were NOT at most
people's houses. They were at few to no houses of average people. Nobody had
a home computer. There weren't even cheap dictionaries yet. Home
dictionaries were big two-volume expensive things. (I have a very small collection of
them.) Some families bought encyclopedias, already outdate by the time they
arrived.
In the 19th century, people wanted and needed schools because books (in the
western U.S. particularly, where people had travelled by covered wagon and
didn't have a trailer full of books) were rare and somewhat suspect. Where books
could arrive by ship and later by train, there were more books. There were
newspapers, but they weren't built to last and they didn't have illustrations
and maps and charts. They had text only (and a few lame little repeated
illustrations that could be set in at the printship). Without books, reading
doesn't get you very far. Bibles and hymnals.
If somone wanted to learn geography or anatomy or chemistry, they just had to
leave home even to get to charts and models. That's not true anymore.
Sandra
24hrmom
<<This type of questioning could be applied to all sorts of topics, we've all
seen them, from chores to going to church. Doesn't it just permeate into
all parts of our lives if we practice respectful parenting? With my family
we first started homeschooling in an eclectic type style, then went to
unschooling, then the unschooling went into practically every crevice of
our lives. It was the whole snowball effect. :)>>
I equate this snowball effect with the shift from rules to principles. I think sometimes (maybe pretty often?) schoolers/homeschoolers get to the concept that kids/people learn best when they are interested in something and that initially brings them to unschooling. As beginning unschoolers they are looking for "rules" or at least definitive guidelines <g>, to make unschooling successful for them. Akin to the "rules" of school or school-at-home. They want to trade out the rules that aren't working for them for a set they believe will work better. They probably have an idea in their head what unschooling rules "should" look like but they often still have a schoolish model in their heads about what learning looks like.
I think that's why newcomers are often surprised/shocked to hear: "Your child uses workbooks?!"; "You don't have bedtimes?!"; "You let them eat what they want?!"; "You don't insist they come to church with you?!"; "Your children don't have chores?!"; "What does all that have to do with unschooling?!"; "Where are the rules, people?!"
If someone can't get past the point of looking for the best set of unschooling "rules" that will finally get their kid learn "schoolishly" (and happily of course), and start understanding and applying the underlying principles, I think they will have a hard time unschooling successfully. And even better, pushing on through to the realization that these principles apply to life in general, not just "academics" - the snowball effect.
Pam L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
seen them, from chores to going to church. Doesn't it just permeate into
all parts of our lives if we practice respectful parenting? With my family
we first started homeschooling in an eclectic type style, then went to
unschooling, then the unschooling went into practically every crevice of
our lives. It was the whole snowball effect. :)>>
I equate this snowball effect with the shift from rules to principles. I think sometimes (maybe pretty often?) schoolers/homeschoolers get to the concept that kids/people learn best when they are interested in something and that initially brings them to unschooling. As beginning unschoolers they are looking for "rules" or at least definitive guidelines <g>, to make unschooling successful for them. Akin to the "rules" of school or school-at-home. They want to trade out the rules that aren't working for them for a set they believe will work better. They probably have an idea in their head what unschooling rules "should" look like but they often still have a schoolish model in their heads about what learning looks like.
I think that's why newcomers are often surprised/shocked to hear: "Your child uses workbooks?!"; "You don't have bedtimes?!"; "You let them eat what they want?!"; "You don't insist they come to church with you?!"; "Your children don't have chores?!"; "What does all that have to do with unschooling?!"; "Where are the rules, people?!"
If someone can't get past the point of looking for the best set of unschooling "rules" that will finally get their kid learn "schoolishly" (and happily of course), and start understanding and applying the underlying principles, I think they will have a hard time unschooling successfully. And even better, pushing on through to the realization that these principles apply to life in general, not just "academics" - the snowball effect.
Pam L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deborah Lewis
***There's more life changing stuff to tell,***
Dylan was my first life changing, unschooly thing. Everyone told me I'd
know my baby in the first moment, that I'd hold him and know him and how
bonding and beautiful it would be. But when he was born and we looked at
him here was a brand new person with his own mind, not a copy of me or
his dad. That astounded me. It seems so stupid now, but he was a
stranger we needed to get to know and so we found ourselves asking
questions like "what if he doesn't like that?"
Another moment was when my mother said she wished she'd never hit any of
her kids. She said upon reflection she came to see that children respond
to their environment and that when they're behaving in ways we don't like
there's always a reason, and a gentle, helpful solution, but mom's are
sometimes too stressed or busy to notice.
We had decided before Dylan was born that we'd never spank him and that
we'd listen to him and let him be himself. In moments since then when
his dad had a hard time with the letting-him-be-himself philosophy he's
said he was expecting Dylan's "self" to be more like his own. <g>
The first time I watched Dylan push a chair to the counter and climb for
a glass I knew he was some kind of super genius!<g> That was the
beginning of wondering what all he'd learn by living. I still had a
hard time not believing there was some magic in teaching that could
deliver the world to my kid at some future date, but that took care of
itself in the moments I was really paying attention to what Dylan was
doing. What our kids show us will push out our years of schooling but
we have to let it.
So we started with the beginning foundation of unschooling, and when
Dylan said he didn't want to go to school it was easy for us to listen to
him.
Pam Hartley wrote that having the opportunity to take care of our
family's needs (cooking, housework) was our gift to them. That was
another moment of enlightenment for me, that I had made these choices,
husband, home, stuff, child and that all those things made my life
better. I got rid of the things I was resenting. I tore out the carpet
I was having to wash too frequently because of critter accidents and was
amazed that a mess or spill wiped up quickly, no stains, no worries.
Sandra changed things for my husband. She wrote about treating our kids
the way we wish we'd been treated. It wasn't easy for David to admit his
parents might have done better, he felt ungrateful and disloyal. But
giving his son what he never got emotionally has been a healing thing for
him. It eased a lot of personal anguish and it's given Dylan a loving,
involved dad.
I think there are people who can't unschool. They are the folks who are
unwilling to rethink everything they thought they knew. They are afraid
or unwilling to give up control. And they are convinced kids aren't good
or smart or capable until an adult makes them so.
Unschooling parents need to be willing to honor their child's
individuality. That's hard to do if all you want is for your kid to fit
in and make you look good. It's hard to do because then you have some
ethical obligation to meet that individuals needs. That individual might
want or need something you wouldn't have chosen for him.
I can't count how many times I've heard "I unschool, I don't un parent!"
when the conversation has turned from kids having control of their
learning to kids having control of their lives. A parent's comfort with
and ability to see life and learning as the same thing is essential to
unschooling.
And hiding in there, in that unwillingness to give kids control, is the
fear that children allowed their individuality will walk all over their
parents. There's big, weird psychology in the idea that our own little
children will grind us into dirt given half a chance. People who won't
think about that won't be able to unschool.
Deb
Dylan was my first life changing, unschooly thing. Everyone told me I'd
know my baby in the first moment, that I'd hold him and know him and how
bonding and beautiful it would be. But when he was born and we looked at
him here was a brand new person with his own mind, not a copy of me or
his dad. That astounded me. It seems so stupid now, but he was a
stranger we needed to get to know and so we found ourselves asking
questions like "what if he doesn't like that?"
Another moment was when my mother said she wished she'd never hit any of
her kids. She said upon reflection she came to see that children respond
to their environment and that when they're behaving in ways we don't like
there's always a reason, and a gentle, helpful solution, but mom's are
sometimes too stressed or busy to notice.
We had decided before Dylan was born that we'd never spank him and that
we'd listen to him and let him be himself. In moments since then when
his dad had a hard time with the letting-him-be-himself philosophy he's
said he was expecting Dylan's "self" to be more like his own. <g>
The first time I watched Dylan push a chair to the counter and climb for
a glass I knew he was some kind of super genius!<g> That was the
beginning of wondering what all he'd learn by living. I still had a
hard time not believing there was some magic in teaching that could
deliver the world to my kid at some future date, but that took care of
itself in the moments I was really paying attention to what Dylan was
doing. What our kids show us will push out our years of schooling but
we have to let it.
So we started with the beginning foundation of unschooling, and when
Dylan said he didn't want to go to school it was easy for us to listen to
him.
Pam Hartley wrote that having the opportunity to take care of our
family's needs (cooking, housework) was our gift to them. That was
another moment of enlightenment for me, that I had made these choices,
husband, home, stuff, child and that all those things made my life
better. I got rid of the things I was resenting. I tore out the carpet
I was having to wash too frequently because of critter accidents and was
amazed that a mess or spill wiped up quickly, no stains, no worries.
Sandra changed things for my husband. She wrote about treating our kids
the way we wish we'd been treated. It wasn't easy for David to admit his
parents might have done better, he felt ungrateful and disloyal. But
giving his son what he never got emotionally has been a healing thing for
him. It eased a lot of personal anguish and it's given Dylan a loving,
involved dad.
I think there are people who can't unschool. They are the folks who are
unwilling to rethink everything they thought they knew. They are afraid
or unwilling to give up control. And they are convinced kids aren't good
or smart or capable until an adult makes them so.
Unschooling parents need to be willing to honor their child's
individuality. That's hard to do if all you want is for your kid to fit
in and make you look good. It's hard to do because then you have some
ethical obligation to meet that individuals needs. That individual might
want or need something you wouldn't have chosen for him.
I can't count how many times I've heard "I unschool, I don't un parent!"
when the conversation has turned from kids having control of their
learning to kids having control of their lives. A parent's comfort with
and ability to see life and learning as the same thing is essential to
unschooling.
And hiding in there, in that unwillingness to give kids control, is the
fear that children allowed their individuality will walk all over their
parents. There's big, weird psychology in the idea that our own little
children will grind us into dirt given half a chance. People who won't
think about that won't be able to unschool.
Deb
24hrmom
<<I think that's why newcomers are often surprised/shocked to hear: "Your child uses workbooks?!"; "You don't have bedtimes?!"; "You let them eat what they want?!"; "You don't insist they come to church with you?!"; "Your children don't have chores?!"; "What does all that have to do with unschooling?!"; "Where are the rules, people?!">>
Okay ... that didn't come across very well. I'll try again:
I think that's why newcomers are often surprised/shocked at what they read and reply with: "Your child uses workbooks?!"; "You don't have bedtimes?!"; "You let them eat what they want?!"; "You don't insist they come to church with you?!"; "Your children don't have chores?!"; "What does all that have to do with unschooling?!"; "Where are the rules, people?!"
Sorry!
Pam L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Okay ... that didn't come across very well. I'll try again:
I think that's why newcomers are often surprised/shocked at what they read and reply with: "Your child uses workbooks?!"; "You don't have bedtimes?!"; "You let them eat what they want?!"; "You don't insist they come to church with you?!"; "Your children don't have chores?!"; "What does all that have to do with unschooling?!"; "Where are the rules, people?!"
Sorry!
Pam L
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill & Diane
I don't agree with this (below). I think unschooling was doable (and
widely done) when the skills kids were learning were building cabins,
hunting, digging wells, planting, sewing, drawing water and washing,
building a cook fire, etc.
What makes it work for the *modern world* is access to the modern world,
a world of great information and information resources, but what made it
work for pioneers was access to the pioneer world!
:-) Diane
widely done) when the skills kids were learning were building cabins,
hunting, digging wells, planting, sewing, drawing water and washing,
building a cook fire, etc.
What makes it work for the *modern world* is access to the modern world,
a world of great information and information resources, but what made it
work for pioneers was access to the pioneer world!
:-) Diane
>I agree, and I remind myself sometimes that the reason this is doable is that
>people do NOT have to build their own cabins by hand, hunt, dig wells, plant
>with a horse-drawn plow, make clothes from feedsacks and wash them in water
>drawn up by hand, heated over a fire or on a woodstove, and so forth and so on.
>
>What makes this work is modern life, the internet, the constant flow of
>printed word, television, newspapers everywhere, really decent magazines like
>Smithsonian and National Geographic, radios and calculators cheap to free at every
>hand.
>
Wife2Vegman
Guns and Swords and Knives.
Not play guns or play swords and play knives.
The real things.
My 12.5yo boy is tired of the play things, and is
askingfor the real versions to "hang on his bedroom
wall", to "use at the target range with Dad", to have
"cuz a real knife would be neat".
My timid, mild-mannered,
still-scared-of-scarey-movies, gentle-giant wants
weapons! The boy who quit karate because he didn't
want to hurt the boys and girls he had to spar with.
ACK!
His friend Benjamin has a collection of real swords on
the wall of his room, mostly japanese swords and I
think one civil war sword.
He went to the target range with his daddy and his
cousin and his uncle for the first time a couple weeks
ago and got to fire a real gun.
He knows his daddy has a real diver's knife and covets
it quite a bit.
I've always tried my best to supply them with whatever
materials and supplies they need to explore their
interests. At Christmas it was an electric guitar and
a set of electric drums.
They have never asked for something that I was
unwilling to supply before (well, except for when they
asked for the snake...but that was years ago before I
started really believing in unschooling).
Now I am in a quandry. Do I supply the 13yo boy with
real weapons? I am not afraid of his going off on a
columbine-type rampage, but he does have a 5yo brother
with a temper and who does not always respect other
people's property like he should.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
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Not play guns or play swords and play knives.
The real things.
My 12.5yo boy is tired of the play things, and is
askingfor the real versions to "hang on his bedroom
wall", to "use at the target range with Dad", to have
"cuz a real knife would be neat".
My timid, mild-mannered,
still-scared-of-scarey-movies, gentle-giant wants
weapons! The boy who quit karate because he didn't
want to hurt the boys and girls he had to spar with.
ACK!
His friend Benjamin has a collection of real swords on
the wall of his room, mostly japanese swords and I
think one civil war sword.
He went to the target range with his daddy and his
cousin and his uncle for the first time a couple weeks
ago and got to fire a real gun.
He knows his daddy has a real diver's knife and covets
it quite a bit.
I've always tried my best to supply them with whatever
materials and supplies they need to explore their
interests. At Christmas it was an electric guitar and
a set of electric drums.
They have never asked for something that I was
unwilling to supply before (well, except for when they
asked for the snake...but that was years ago before I
started really believing in unschooling).
Now I am in a quandry. Do I supply the 13yo boy with
real weapons? I am not afraid of his going off on a
columbine-type rampage, but he does have a 5yo brother
with a temper and who does not always respect other
people's property like he should.
=====
--Susan in VA
WifetoVegman
What is most important and valuable about the home as a base for children's growth into the world is not that it is a better school than the schools, but that it isn't a school at all. John Holt
__________________________________
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
Sylvia Toyama
I am getting better at the whole doing housework without feeling pissy thing.
Just yesterday, I was feeling restless, the house was cluttered, that kind of thing. Turns out I was PMSy, but that's part of what makes the moment even sweeter for me, since when I'm that way I'm more likely to be cranky than gracious. Earlier in the morning, I had casually mentioned to Andy that maybe he could neaten up his room. He told me he likes it messy.
I had cleaned the living room, unloaded (and reloaded) the dishwasher, and started gathering socks and underwear to wash with the sheets. Remembering that Andy had complained about having the wear the same socks 'every time' I went into his room to look for socks. His room was an explosion of stuff everywhere -- duct tape stuck to the carpet, apparently just for fun, clothes, toys and scraps of paper everywhere, and clearly -- from the smell -- it was time to put new litter in the mouse cage. I sorted thru it all, filled a shopping bag with paper scraps and tape, emptied and replaced the mouse litter, put all the toys in a box, thru all the blankets on the beds. As I was finishing up the mouse cage, Dan insisted on filling the water bottle, and did a great job with it (and he's only 3). Andy came, saw it all, and said, "You cleaned my room?" I answered that I had been looking for socks, needed to clear trash out of my way, and changed the mouse cage because the smell bothered
me -- that it had never been a mission to clean his room, really just to find socks. And, it really wasn't clean, just less cluttered and lighter by some trash. Along the way, I found the missing nail clippers -- a bonus!
Several minutes later, he came to me in the kitchen and invited me to see his room. I was busy making lunch, but guessing where this was going, I asked what I'd see if I went to his room. With a grin, I asked if he'd already messed it up again. He said, "Yes. When my room is clean it's like I'm in another dimension. When I can see the floor, it's like a 4th dimension." I laughed with him and said, "Really? It's your room, you have it any way you like it. I didn't clean it for you, or because I expect you to keep it clean. I cleaned so I could find your socks for the laundry." And it really was okay with me.
What was different this time? Because in the past, I've gone on about how other people could help me clean. Yanno, the whole martying Mom thing. As I started cleaning yesterday morning, I reminded myself of something I read about living peacefully with your kids. I clean and do other needful things for me, because I want them done or I think they need to be done. I'm not doing all this for other people, and it's not fair to ask them to do it just to please me. I've invited these children into my life, to live in our home, not so that I could turn them into slave labor to keep my house clean. It's also not part of my job to teach them how to keep house. They'll figure out how they like things kept, watch me do it and choose to do it themselves, or not -- as they wish, not as I insist. And it really is so much more pleasant to do things myself than to force others to do my bidding.
Okay, so now it sounds like rambling, but it was a really big moment for me. I've always been something of a control freak, so the living part of unschooling is often harder than giving up the schooly part. It's just part of that natural progression from unschooling newbies still clinging to some pretense of control to the freedom of just living together.
This is nice!
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just yesterday, I was feeling restless, the house was cluttered, that kind of thing. Turns out I was PMSy, but that's part of what makes the moment even sweeter for me, since when I'm that way I'm more likely to be cranky than gracious. Earlier in the morning, I had casually mentioned to Andy that maybe he could neaten up his room. He told me he likes it messy.
I had cleaned the living room, unloaded (and reloaded) the dishwasher, and started gathering socks and underwear to wash with the sheets. Remembering that Andy had complained about having the wear the same socks 'every time' I went into his room to look for socks. His room was an explosion of stuff everywhere -- duct tape stuck to the carpet, apparently just for fun, clothes, toys and scraps of paper everywhere, and clearly -- from the smell -- it was time to put new litter in the mouse cage. I sorted thru it all, filled a shopping bag with paper scraps and tape, emptied and replaced the mouse litter, put all the toys in a box, thru all the blankets on the beds. As I was finishing up the mouse cage, Dan insisted on filling the water bottle, and did a great job with it (and he's only 3). Andy came, saw it all, and said, "You cleaned my room?" I answered that I had been looking for socks, needed to clear trash out of my way, and changed the mouse cage because the smell bothered
me -- that it had never been a mission to clean his room, really just to find socks. And, it really wasn't clean, just less cluttered and lighter by some trash. Along the way, I found the missing nail clippers -- a bonus!
Several minutes later, he came to me in the kitchen and invited me to see his room. I was busy making lunch, but guessing where this was going, I asked what I'd see if I went to his room. With a grin, I asked if he'd already messed it up again. He said, "Yes. When my room is clean it's like I'm in another dimension. When I can see the floor, it's like a 4th dimension." I laughed with him and said, "Really? It's your room, you have it any way you like it. I didn't clean it for you, or because I expect you to keep it clean. I cleaned so I could find your socks for the laundry." And it really was okay with me.
What was different this time? Because in the past, I've gone on about how other people could help me clean. Yanno, the whole martying Mom thing. As I started cleaning yesterday morning, I reminded myself of something I read about living peacefully with your kids. I clean and do other needful things for me, because I want them done or I think they need to be done. I'm not doing all this for other people, and it's not fair to ask them to do it just to please me. I've invited these children into my life, to live in our home, not so that I could turn them into slave labor to keep my house clean. It's also not part of my job to teach them how to keep house. They'll figure out how they like things kept, watch me do it and choose to do it themselves, or not -- as they wish, not as I insist. And it really is so much more pleasant to do things myself than to force others to do my bidding.
Okay, so now it sounds like rambling, but it was a really big moment for me. I've always been something of a control freak, so the living part of unschooling is often harder than giving up the schooly part. It's just part of that natural progression from unschooling newbies still clinging to some pretense of control to the freedom of just living together.
This is nice!
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]