NBTSC
HarmNone
Joylyn:
My daughter went to NBTSC at 15 and did not like it at all. And there are
no special facilities whatsoever, no special anything. Just lots of rain
and cold and terrible food, and some very unpleasant experiences.
**My take on it exactly. My ds attended when he was 13yo and 14yo...the
second year was much worse than the first.....there were indeed dangerous
and life threatening situations, e.g., a bee sting to one who proved
allergic but no medical attention was sought. I, too, would never advocate
much adult intervention in teens choices but when serious health issues
develop, assistance is needed. In any case, the experience was sure not
worth the cost of air fare from Ohio to Oregon and the cost of the camp. We
were disappointed.
Regards,
Lori Collner
My daughter went to NBTSC at 15 and did not like it at all. And there are
no special facilities whatsoever, no special anything. Just lots of rain
and cold and terrible food, and some very unpleasant experiences.
**My take on it exactly. My ds attended when he was 13yo and 14yo...the
second year was much worse than the first.....there were indeed dangerous
and life threatening situations, e.g., a bee sting to one who proved
allergic but no medical attention was sought. I, too, would never advocate
much adult intervention in teens choices but when serious health issues
develop, assistance is needed. In any case, the experience was sure not
worth the cost of air fare from Ohio to Oregon and the cost of the camp. We
were disappointed.
Regards,
Lori Collner
pam sorooshian
On Jan 19, 2004, at 12:43 PM, HarmNone wrote:
life-changing thrilling energizing experience. She was 17 when she
first went, regrets very much not having gone earlier, and later worked
with other young adults (18 and up) to start another similar camp for
those too old for NBTSC, called "Quo Vadis" and went twice to that.
She's applying to be a staff member this year at NBTSC. She calls it
radical unschooler heaven.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
> My daughter went to NBTSC at 15 and did not like it at all.Mine went to NBTSC and found it to be an amazing wonderful
life-changing thrilling energizing experience. She was 17 when she
first went, regrets very much not having gone earlier, and later worked
with other young adults (18 and up) to start another similar camp for
those too old for NBTSC, called "Quo Vadis" and went twice to that.
She's applying to be a staff member this year at NBTSC. She calls it
radical unschooler heaven.
-pam
When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
~~~Paul Simon (Kodachrome)
Norma
--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
NBTSC parents' list. They only allow positives there. Anyone who
says anything negative is drummed off the list, and if they don't
leave willingly they are blocked.
If you want to hear any criticism at all you will have to ask on
lists like this, and a few, very few, of us will speak out. Many,
because of their own experience with the NBTSC parents' list, won't
speak out anywhere.
There are many great camps around the country and we have concluded
that a bunch of unschoolers is not necessarily a good representation
of the real world, more like some kind of insular cadre, with its own
little sub-strata of counterculture cliques. And just because these
kids are unschoolers does not mean that they do not bring their own
racist, sexist and other emotional baggage with them. Believe me,
they do.
I admit that bad things can happen anywhere, but if you happen to get
caught in one of those less than utopian NBTSC sessions, like the one
my daughter attended, and you find that the camp and the other
parents would rather drum you and any other critics out of their
ranks than even consider doing anything to improve the situation for
future campers, you might just end up with the same negative
impression we received. The way problems get solved or not is very
telling about the camp and its administration, I think. This one
just chases off the critics and figures the problem is gone.
Besides, in retrospect and after much other experience now, I would
put much more support into a group of unschooling parents and/or
unschooling kids putting together their own camp than in someone who
has been and who remains an unschooling observer, and an
opportunistic one, at that. It would be much cheaper and probably
much more fun, like the UU camp, and other home educator organized
camps put together locally in our area.
I still can't figure out why a camp that claims to empower teens, to
grant them freedom, then makes all their food decisions for them,
totally usurping their power to do something they must do every
single day. Just does not make sense to me. By contrast I observed
how the UU teen camp trip we experienced had great food that no one
complained about at all. And my daughter found the same thing at her
Earlham College two week Explore-A-College summer course experience:
great food and wonderfully accommodating and readily available
staff. Different strokes suit different folks, I guess.
Norma
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
> Mine went to NBTSC and found it to be an amazing wonderfulworked
> life-changing thrilling energizing experience. She was 17 when she
> first went, regrets very much not having gone earlier, and later
> with other young adults (18 and up) to start another similar campfor
> those too old for NBTSC, called "Quo Vadis" and went twice to that.it
> She's applying to be a staff member this year at NBTSC. She calls
> radical unschooler heaven.If anyone wants to read lots of positives about NBTSC just go to the
NBTSC parents' list. They only allow positives there. Anyone who
says anything negative is drummed off the list, and if they don't
leave willingly they are blocked.
If you want to hear any criticism at all you will have to ask on
lists like this, and a few, very few, of us will speak out. Many,
because of their own experience with the NBTSC parents' list, won't
speak out anywhere.
There are many great camps around the country and we have concluded
that a bunch of unschoolers is not necessarily a good representation
of the real world, more like some kind of insular cadre, with its own
little sub-strata of counterculture cliques. And just because these
kids are unschoolers does not mean that they do not bring their own
racist, sexist and other emotional baggage with them. Believe me,
they do.
I admit that bad things can happen anywhere, but if you happen to get
caught in one of those less than utopian NBTSC sessions, like the one
my daughter attended, and you find that the camp and the other
parents would rather drum you and any other critics out of their
ranks than even consider doing anything to improve the situation for
future campers, you might just end up with the same negative
impression we received. The way problems get solved or not is very
telling about the camp and its administration, I think. This one
just chases off the critics and figures the problem is gone.
Besides, in retrospect and after much other experience now, I would
put much more support into a group of unschooling parents and/or
unschooling kids putting together their own camp than in someone who
has been and who remains an unschooling observer, and an
opportunistic one, at that. It would be much cheaper and probably
much more fun, like the UU camp, and other home educator organized
camps put together locally in our area.
I still can't figure out why a camp that claims to empower teens, to
grant them freedom, then makes all their food decisions for them,
totally usurping their power to do something they must do every
single day. Just does not make sense to me. By contrast I observed
how the UU teen camp trip we experienced had great food that no one
complained about at all. And my daughter found the same thing at her
Earlham College two week Explore-A-College summer course experience:
great food and wonderfully accommodating and readily available
staff. Different strokes suit different folks, I guess.
Norma
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
>(big snip) and you find that the camp and the otherActually, I think it was a situation of most of the people in the group
>parents would rather drum you and any other critics out of their
>ranks than even consider doing anything to improve the situation for
finally getting worn down and plain old tired of having their extensive
ideas and thoughts completely ignored and de-valued while still having to
almost daily read some fairly strident griping (bashing?) from a single
individual repeated ad-nauseum *regardless* of what anyone else put out
there. It was this utter fatigue and an inability to feel like the group
was being heard by the individual or possibly that the group couldn't help
the individual feel heard, that prompted the group to finally seek respite.
After concerns were aired, some changes were made to camp. Some were
small, some were bigger. That a specific individual was not ultimately
pacified does not mean concerns were not listened to and thought about nor
that 'improvements' were not made. 'Heard' does not always mean 'Happy'.
Again, every camp/book/show/game/religion/spouse/favorite color is not for
every person.
For some of the same (but perhaps inverted?) reasons some folks like UU (or
whichever) camps, I probably would not enjoy them. More power to the folks
who LIKE the UU camps (or any other camp for that matter!)
To each their own.
HeidiWD
"wow, 130,000 troops on the ground, nearly 500 deaths and over a billion
dollars a day, but they caught a guy living in a hole. am i supposed to be
dazzled?"
Email sent by an SPC in the US Army who wishes to remain anonymous.
Norma
I wrote:
<>and you find that the camp and the other parents would rather drum
you and any other critics out of their ranks than even consider doing
anything to improve the situation<>
Heidi wrote:
<>Actually, I think it was a situation of most of the people in the
group finally getting worn down and plain old tired of having their
extensive ideas and thoughts completely ignored and de-valued while
still having to almost daily read some fairly strident griping
(bashing?) from a single individual repeated ad-nauseum *regardless*
of what anyone else put out there.<>
Begging your pardon, but no solutions were ever offered. As I stated
earlier, a reasonable solution would have been to form a committee of
parents to approach Grace about these problems. Boys physically
forcing a girl to do something against her will is not a small
gripe. Neither is an African American girl facing racial slurs and
driving home in tears because of it. And last, being served inedible
food, while being told ahead of time that good healthy organic food
would be prepared. Then facing hoarding of food by certain campers
that went on with no peer or adult intervention was also not
something that one would expect to have to be prepared for. In other
words, there was plenty of bad behavior and no process whatsoever for
dealing with it. Just a tough it out attitude.
Only one parent admitted that her teen did hoard certain food. No
apologies were ever given. The problem, as I now see it, lies in the
parents who neither discourage this type of behavior, nor will they
be supportive of helping to bring about any kind of process for
dealing with it at the camp. Grace herself only said, sorry, but
also just defended the way things were.
The last situation was much more serious and that may have resulted
in a lawsuit, though I don't know for sure. But when kids have
serious mental issues and they have no one on staff who they feel
they can talk to, or who is readily available to them, especially at
night when these things tend to happen, then things get way out of
hand. Putting that kind of responsibility on a teen who has never
dealt with this type of thing before is not what camp is supposed to
be about, not in our books anyway. This is where adults, with legal
liability issues covered, need to be there. They weren't. And none
of the parents even wanted to touch that subject.
NBTSC was not a plane crash where everyone had to fend for themselves
until help arrived. It was not some natural disaster where help
could not get there. It was a private business that failed to
provide an adequate system to deal with all these problems, something
we have not seen at any other camp situation before or since.
And, Heidi, how would you know if you would or would not like the UU
camp? And the issue really isn't whether you would like it or not,
is it? It's whether your teen would like it. The group that I
observed (and any parents were welcome to participate, were
encouraged to come along, bring their tents and just be there, which
is certainly not the case at NBTSC) were kids who had known each
other for years mixing and mingling very well with new kids, kids who
were not members of the UU church, and kids who were just friends of
other kids who were going to this camp. The parents participation
was marvelous, expecially when it came to food, with different
parents driving hours to transport meals each day so that we didn't
have to store a whole bunch of food and leave it while doing the
day's activities.
The teens set up the camp, served the food, cleaned up, did
everything on their own. When it poured rain they either piled into
their own tents or some stayed out in the rain. Their choice. No
adult intervened, but we were there if needed. The adults also were
there to drive the teens to other locales where, for example, the
high ropes course was. If a teen did not want to participate in the
course they did not have to, and everyone was very supportive of each
individual's decision. Some teens just tried a few things, and
cheered others on for other things. Some just sat on the sidelines.
Everyone enjoyed the experience, whether participating in everything
or just watching. The teens romped on the beach at night, played
around with a telescope one of the adults brought, and did all the
usual things that teens do at camps.
My daughter said it was much better, and at $85 per kid for a week,
it was many dollars better than NBTSC. Any parents were welcome to
drop by any time, or stay, or camp nearby. If the kids needed
something from the store, one adult was always available to go along,
even if the teens did the driving (the nearest convenience store was
about 30 minutes away). It was a great demonstration of full
cooperation by everyone. So please don't critique something you have
not experienced, Heidi. My daughter did experience NBTSC, and, by
comparison, she loved the UU experience, as a totally new and unknown
person who was not a church member in this group, but who was
welcomed and treated very well by everyone, and she was most
disappointed in NBTSC. Same goes for Earlham College, where she knew
no one, and was one of a handful of home educators amongst teens from
all over the world, but she had a wonderful experience on every
level. I had nothing to complain about in any of these other cases.
My biggest disappointment on the NBTSC parents' list, just as it is
with your comments here, is that rather than suggest any concrete
action to be taken by the parents who might be concerned about this
kind of behavior (physical coercion, racial slurs, suicide
prevention, and lousy food during very cold and rainy weather), the
parents just kept attacking me and defending Grace. And my daughter
is even more disappointed about the way the parents have continued to
spread false rumors with their kids about my daughter's experiences
and complaints, telling their teens that we have sued Grace. I admit
I do not know if someone has sued Grace, but I know it isn't us. We
just wanted to see some change, the kind of change that might save a
life, and the kind of change that definitely would make this
experience better for teen girls (especially 98# girls), teen girls
of other than Caucasian races, and those who are not accustomed to
going without food each day, or finding the few things they could eat
taken and hoarded by a few teens without any adult intervention.
These are all solvable problems, but the parents didn't seem to want
to work together to help solve them. It was clearly "you're on your
own" and because we were criticizing the Holy Camp we were, and
continue to be, criticized by the camp's devotees. The same thing
happened to other parents who complained, though they just went away,
fairly quickly, including one adult who was at the camp the whole
session and who was much more upset than I was. I had hoped that
some would choose to work for change. Didn't happen. But I will
continue to present our experience whenever it gets brought up. I
wish I had touched base with someone with a negative experience
before my daughter went. She may still have gone, but would have
been much better prepared.
So, yeah, I just want to be sure that folks hear the other side.
This camp is not for everyone, to be sure. Read Lord of the Flies.
Mostly it is for white kids, kids who go with friends, or are already
part of one of the little NBTSC cliques who go year after year. And
definitely be sure to have your kid take a good private stash of food
along, no matter what the camp web site and information says. There
is no camp store and no way to get any other food at NBTSC. Unless
your teen is a total omnivore and really does not care what is served
at all, this would really help the situation. And prepare for very
cold wet muddy weather. If it doesn't happen, great, but we clearly
were not prepared. Also, there is no laundry, no way to wash and dry
anything. Hand washing is useless when it rains incessantly.
What we learned is that some unschoolers are not necessarily well
behaved, fair, or even nice people. And we subsequently learned that
my daughter could have very good camp experiences for a fraction of
the cost of NBTSC camp, with even more wonderful new opportunities to
interact and learn about herself, to meet new people and not be
subjected to the kinds of disrespectful things she experienced at
NBTSC. So, do look around and consider all options. Just don't
assume that because someone who has observed home educated kids and
written about them (though she has never dealt with the day to day
reality of being responsible for and home educating her own kids),
while they pay her money to attend her camp and be observed so she
can write more about them, will provide the best experience for your
teen.
Norma
<>and you find that the camp and the other parents would rather drum
you and any other critics out of their ranks than even consider doing
anything to improve the situation<>
Heidi wrote:
<>Actually, I think it was a situation of most of the people in the
group finally getting worn down and plain old tired of having their
extensive ideas and thoughts completely ignored and de-valued while
still having to almost daily read some fairly strident griping
(bashing?) from a single individual repeated ad-nauseum *regardless*
of what anyone else put out there.<>
Begging your pardon, but no solutions were ever offered. As I stated
earlier, a reasonable solution would have been to form a committee of
parents to approach Grace about these problems. Boys physically
forcing a girl to do something against her will is not a small
gripe. Neither is an African American girl facing racial slurs and
driving home in tears because of it. And last, being served inedible
food, while being told ahead of time that good healthy organic food
would be prepared. Then facing hoarding of food by certain campers
that went on with no peer or adult intervention was also not
something that one would expect to have to be prepared for. In other
words, there was plenty of bad behavior and no process whatsoever for
dealing with it. Just a tough it out attitude.
Only one parent admitted that her teen did hoard certain food. No
apologies were ever given. The problem, as I now see it, lies in the
parents who neither discourage this type of behavior, nor will they
be supportive of helping to bring about any kind of process for
dealing with it at the camp. Grace herself only said, sorry, but
also just defended the way things were.
The last situation was much more serious and that may have resulted
in a lawsuit, though I don't know for sure. But when kids have
serious mental issues and they have no one on staff who they feel
they can talk to, or who is readily available to them, especially at
night when these things tend to happen, then things get way out of
hand. Putting that kind of responsibility on a teen who has never
dealt with this type of thing before is not what camp is supposed to
be about, not in our books anyway. This is where adults, with legal
liability issues covered, need to be there. They weren't. And none
of the parents even wanted to touch that subject.
NBTSC was not a plane crash where everyone had to fend for themselves
until help arrived. It was not some natural disaster where help
could not get there. It was a private business that failed to
provide an adequate system to deal with all these problems, something
we have not seen at any other camp situation before or since.
And, Heidi, how would you know if you would or would not like the UU
camp? And the issue really isn't whether you would like it or not,
is it? It's whether your teen would like it. The group that I
observed (and any parents were welcome to participate, were
encouraged to come along, bring their tents and just be there, which
is certainly not the case at NBTSC) were kids who had known each
other for years mixing and mingling very well with new kids, kids who
were not members of the UU church, and kids who were just friends of
other kids who were going to this camp. The parents participation
was marvelous, expecially when it came to food, with different
parents driving hours to transport meals each day so that we didn't
have to store a whole bunch of food and leave it while doing the
day's activities.
The teens set up the camp, served the food, cleaned up, did
everything on their own. When it poured rain they either piled into
their own tents or some stayed out in the rain. Their choice. No
adult intervened, but we were there if needed. The adults also were
there to drive the teens to other locales where, for example, the
high ropes course was. If a teen did not want to participate in the
course they did not have to, and everyone was very supportive of each
individual's decision. Some teens just tried a few things, and
cheered others on for other things. Some just sat on the sidelines.
Everyone enjoyed the experience, whether participating in everything
or just watching. The teens romped on the beach at night, played
around with a telescope one of the adults brought, and did all the
usual things that teens do at camps.
My daughter said it was much better, and at $85 per kid for a week,
it was many dollars better than NBTSC. Any parents were welcome to
drop by any time, or stay, or camp nearby. If the kids needed
something from the store, one adult was always available to go along,
even if the teens did the driving (the nearest convenience store was
about 30 minutes away). It was a great demonstration of full
cooperation by everyone. So please don't critique something you have
not experienced, Heidi. My daughter did experience NBTSC, and, by
comparison, she loved the UU experience, as a totally new and unknown
person who was not a church member in this group, but who was
welcomed and treated very well by everyone, and she was most
disappointed in NBTSC. Same goes for Earlham College, where she knew
no one, and was one of a handful of home educators amongst teens from
all over the world, but she had a wonderful experience on every
level. I had nothing to complain about in any of these other cases.
My biggest disappointment on the NBTSC parents' list, just as it is
with your comments here, is that rather than suggest any concrete
action to be taken by the parents who might be concerned about this
kind of behavior (physical coercion, racial slurs, suicide
prevention, and lousy food during very cold and rainy weather), the
parents just kept attacking me and defending Grace. And my daughter
is even more disappointed about the way the parents have continued to
spread false rumors with their kids about my daughter's experiences
and complaints, telling their teens that we have sued Grace. I admit
I do not know if someone has sued Grace, but I know it isn't us. We
just wanted to see some change, the kind of change that might save a
life, and the kind of change that definitely would make this
experience better for teen girls (especially 98# girls), teen girls
of other than Caucasian races, and those who are not accustomed to
going without food each day, or finding the few things they could eat
taken and hoarded by a few teens without any adult intervention.
These are all solvable problems, but the parents didn't seem to want
to work together to help solve them. It was clearly "you're on your
own" and because we were criticizing the Holy Camp we were, and
continue to be, criticized by the camp's devotees. The same thing
happened to other parents who complained, though they just went away,
fairly quickly, including one adult who was at the camp the whole
session and who was much more upset than I was. I had hoped that
some would choose to work for change. Didn't happen. But I will
continue to present our experience whenever it gets brought up. I
wish I had touched base with someone with a negative experience
before my daughter went. She may still have gone, but would have
been much better prepared.
So, yeah, I just want to be sure that folks hear the other side.
This camp is not for everyone, to be sure. Read Lord of the Flies.
Mostly it is for white kids, kids who go with friends, or are already
part of one of the little NBTSC cliques who go year after year. And
definitely be sure to have your kid take a good private stash of food
along, no matter what the camp web site and information says. There
is no camp store and no way to get any other food at NBTSC. Unless
your teen is a total omnivore and really does not care what is served
at all, this would really help the situation. And prepare for very
cold wet muddy weather. If it doesn't happen, great, but we clearly
were not prepared. Also, there is no laundry, no way to wash and dry
anything. Hand washing is useless when it rains incessantly.
What we learned is that some unschoolers are not necessarily well
behaved, fair, or even nice people. And we subsequently learned that
my daughter could have very good camp experiences for a fraction of
the cost of NBTSC camp, with even more wonderful new opportunities to
interact and learn about herself, to meet new people and not be
subjected to the kinds of disrespectful things she experienced at
NBTSC. So, do look around and consider all options. Just don't
assume that because someone who has observed home educated kids and
written about them (though she has never dealt with the day to day
reality of being responsible for and home educating her own kids),
while they pay her money to attend her camp and be observed so she
can write more about them, will provide the best experience for your
teen.
Norma
Tia Leschke
>I believe we've heard it now.
>So, yeah, I just want to be sure that folks hear the other side.
Tia
nyneca
Norma-
I really appreciated reading your account of a less than positive experience at the
NBTS camp. I had considered the camp for my kids, and when visiting the webpage,
got the feeling that the camping experiences represented were only positive, but had
doubts about whether it could be *that* good for everyone attending. I also wished
that I could get some feedback from parents whose children would not be returning,
but I can't think of a way for that to happen outside of posting to message lists like
this. Yours is not the first detailed negative account that I've read.
The NBTS website describes the hands-off approach that they take quite well, but I
had my doubts about how successful that policy is for everyone. GL has several
caveats about what types of kids would be suited to that type of camping experience,
which I read as red flags. I can't imagine putting my kids in a situation where they
can't rely on the responsible adults in attendance when situations arise that need
correction.
When I organized a 3 day camping trip for my homeschooling group, the facility
required that we have a liability insurance policy that covered injuries. It was pretty
expensive. In reading your description of your daughter's experience, I wondered how
Grace managed to get insurance, and how long she expected that the hands off
approach would work before someone did sue her. Obviously she can't control who
attends the camp, she has no control over the values taught in the households that
the kids come from, and she apparently elects not to interefere in behavior issues,
but she can make an effort to ensure that the food is edible and available to all, and
that basic safety of the attendees is ensured, and it sounds like for many people,
that's not happening.
I'm glad that there are many kids who find the experience enjoyable and
rewarding, as they seem to be in the majority, but I wonder where the compassion is
for those kids whose experience is miserable (and possibly actionable) through no
fault of their own.
Ellen
I really appreciated reading your account of a less than positive experience at the
NBTS camp. I had considered the camp for my kids, and when visiting the webpage,
got the feeling that the camping experiences represented were only positive, but had
doubts about whether it could be *that* good for everyone attending. I also wished
that I could get some feedback from parents whose children would not be returning,
but I can't think of a way for that to happen outside of posting to message lists like
this. Yours is not the first detailed negative account that I've read.
The NBTS website describes the hands-off approach that they take quite well, but I
had my doubts about how successful that policy is for everyone. GL has several
caveats about what types of kids would be suited to that type of camping experience,
which I read as red flags. I can't imagine putting my kids in a situation where they
can't rely on the responsible adults in attendance when situations arise that need
correction.
When I organized a 3 day camping trip for my homeschooling group, the facility
required that we have a liability insurance policy that covered injuries. It was pretty
expensive. In reading your description of your daughter's experience, I wondered how
Grace managed to get insurance, and how long she expected that the hands off
approach would work before someone did sue her. Obviously she can't control who
attends the camp, she has no control over the values taught in the households that
the kids come from, and she apparently elects not to interefere in behavior issues,
but she can make an effort to ensure that the food is edible and available to all, and
that basic safety of the attendees is ensured, and it sounds like for many people,
that's not happening.
I'm glad that there are many kids who find the experience enjoyable and
rewarding, as they seem to be in the majority, but I wonder where the compassion is
for those kids whose experience is miserable (and possibly actionable) through no
fault of their own.
Ellen
Norma
--- In [email protected], "nyneca" <evkod@p...> wrote:
<>I really appreciated reading your account of a less than positive
experience at the NBTS camp. I had considered the camp for my kids,
and when visiting the webpage, got the feeling that the camping
experiences represented were only positive, but had doubts about
whether it could be *that* good for everyone attending. I also wished
that I could get some feedback from parents whose children would not
be returning, but I can't think of a way for that to happen outside
of posting to message lists like this. Yours is not the first
detailed negative account that I've read.<>
Ellen:
Glad you appreciated my report and those of others elsewhere. I do
not condemn Grace's camp, since obviously a large group of those
attending do enjoy it and choose to return. But you will nowhere
find statistics on the percentage who neither enjoy it, nor those who
just stay quiet and choose not to return.
My daughter did find that many things the handbook said were not only
not enforced but left to benign neglect. Think teens and their usual
inclinations, and you will get my drift. Suffice it to say that I
hope that these teens had good sex education and practiced safe sex.
And my daughter also found that many of these kids had poor relations
with their parents, were typical teen rebels, and were also social
rebels, in one form or another. Now I certainly don't hold that
against anyone. These rebels need somewhere to go and a group to
which they can relate, I suppose. As a matter of fact, my daughter
observed that many of these teens did not have any other friends with
whom they could relate. NBTSC became their main venue for
friendships. Then some campers were brand new to home education, and
especially to unschooling. Some were still in their deschooling
phase, still smarting from the hurts of institutionalized learning.
The NBTS "hands-off" approach is fine, as long as nothing goes
wrong. But if something does go wrong, or is threatening to go
wrong, there is no safety net there. And that policy is high risk
for some of the kids who ended up at this camp. Again, I don't think
that is terribly unusual with this type of teen. Just needs better
camp management.
The things that disappointed me more were the reactions of other
parents who wanted nothing to do with anyone who had any legitimate
complaints; and that included me and several others from the one
session we attended. Those who may have chosen to sue certainly had
their own reasons to do so, and the courts or the lawyers will settle
their claims. But I would have hoped that a situation like this
would have some kind of established conflict resolution process for
things like those that my daughter experienced. Even a teen peer
process would have helped. But none existed.
Some teen boys can behave like wild dogs in packs in this kind of
situation, and try things they would never do at home. And grabbing
a 98# girl and forcing her to do something she did not want or intend
to do is illegal, and would not be tolerated by most families I
know. Racial slurs happen everywhere, and some families are very
tolerant of those, but one would hope that those who are attending
this type of camp would, again, have some recourse for this type of
behavior. An apology from those involved would have sufficed, but
none was offered.
The cold weather was not Grace's fault, but stating clearly how cold
it gets and how wet it can be, information readily available to Grace
from the local agricultural and weather resources, plus the condition
of the cabins, with bare boards with open cracks to the outdoors,
might prepare folks better for appropriate clothing and bedding to
bring with them. We drove our daughter to the camp in West Virginia
and we were put off by some of the properties rather close to the
camp that looked more like dumps than homes. And having lived in
poor rural areas for the greater portion of my life, I am not talking
about just poor mountain folks. I am talking about dumps, the kind
that propogate rats.
The food situation, which even on the NBTSC parents' list, was
admittedly sometimes awful, just does not go with the supposed
philosophy of freedom tolerated in all other areas. Why force kids
to eat a very unusual diet imposed by the camp director alone? This
just doesn't make sense. And the kids were not involved in the
choices, the preparation, any part of the food process. I have
cooked for large groups at various conferences and camps and had no
difficulty coming up with good lacto-ovo vegetarian food that
everyone enjoyed. At many of our Quaker yearly meetings we
accommodate everyone, vegetarians and carnivores, with ease. And
then to not have enough food, or to have teens hoarding food with no
accountability, well, it was just not a good situation. Cold, wet,
and poor food choices do not make for a good camp experience. But
this is easily corrected and I hope that future camp sessions will
strive to take care of this situation. Otherwise pack up a large box
with a week's worth of back-pack style meals for any campers
attending NBTSC. Might be a good idea no matter what the web site or
the brochure tells you.
<>I'm glad that there are many kids who find the experience enjoyable
and rewarding, as they seem to be in the majority, but I wonder where
the compassion is for those kids whose experience is miserable (and
possibly actionable) through no fault of their own.<>
I suspect they are the majority, too, since so many of the campers
are returnees. And, yes, it was that compassion, especially for
those who were subjected to some very nasty and illegal behaviors,
and who ended up bearing more responsibility for those attending than
she was ever prepared to handle, that I felt was clearly lacking.
Neither the teens themselves, nor their parents, nor the camp
director offered any kind of true compassion for what happened. That
is not a situation to which I would ever choose to subject any
child.
Fortunately I was far more careful with the camps and campuses she
attended this past year, grilling the program directors on everything
beforehand, and am pleased to say that what she experienced at NBTSC
is not common. All the other experiences were good. One had poor
quality food, but she had learned her lesson on that and taken her
own stash to supplement the camp's offerings. She did not experience
any of the other problems she experienced at NBTSC. And no facility
was as questionable as the one in West Virginia, either. The camp
she attended in North Carolina was gorgeous, in an extraordinary
setting, surrounded by natural beauty and lovely homes. The cabins
were warm and had private baths for the 7 campers and one counselor
in each cabin. Still, several campers suffered severe reactions to
bee stings there, and the emergencies were handled quickly, with
proper medical care. My daughter reactivated a knee injury from her
figure skating and the nurse phoned me to tell me what they were
doing to accommodate her knee pain.
The campus situation she attended was even better, with lots of
freedom, minimal normal coed campus rules, a great group of teens,
and excellent staff. Even in extremely hot weather with no air-
conditioning (except for a floor fan my daughter brought with her),
and through a terrible storm that knocked down many big trees on the
campus, my daughter felt safe and secure and had no complaints. And
she was most impressed with the food and the kitchen staff that was
happy to accommodate anyone who wanted something different.
So do look around and do ask lots of questions. Ask about the food,
and if it's okay to bring your own along, just in case. If they say,
no, I would be suspicious. No one else can know what your child is
willing to eat. And do drive your kid to the camp so that you have a
better picture of the locale and what is or what is not within
reasonable driving distance. If you can't do that I would hesitate.
Ask about peer conflict resolution. Ask about who enforces whatever
rules they say they have, and how decisions are made. Ask about
phones and communication, another issue at NBTSC. In mountainous
country cell phones often won't work, and my daughter learned that
with one public phone available for the whole camp certain campers
tended to hog the phones every night, making it impossible for
parents to either call in on that phone or for other campers to call
out. Plus, more often than not, the public phone went unanswered if
it was raining or if the campers were doing something else at night.
Also, messages left on the office answering machine were not always
passed to the camper in a timely manner at NBTSC.
Fortunately my daughter's NBTSC experience was only one week, a week
that she chose not to repeat. Her other experiences since then were
two two-week sessions and another one-week session, and they were all
great. So camp and summer programs can be wonderful. I would not
want anything I have said to discourage folks from looking for the
right programs for their children, whatever age they may be. We
learned that there are many, many camps and programs out there, and
that most were less expensive than NBTSC with much better facilities,
program options, and better food. We felt betrayed by NBTSC, and
even more so by the other parents who had nothing constructive to
offer to try to make amends for what my daughter experienced. The
only others who were sympathetic were those parents whose teens also
were unhappy and who also have chosen not to return to NBTSC.
Again, just because someone has observed unschoolers and written
about what she has observed, does not necessarily make that person a
good camp administrator. I have been much happier with the camps
where the parents were very much involved and contributing, or at
least listened to and allowed open access. After all, wouldn't it be
logical to think that some of these parents, who have taken full
responsibility for their child/ren's education, might have something
worthwhile to contribute? Why should Grace be performing her belly-
dancing on stage on talent night, or in workshops, and no other
parents allowed? Plenty of other parents have talents they might be
able and willing to contribute to this type of camp, including good
food planning and preparation. Why all of the sudden should parents
be excluded from unschooled children's lives? Interesting philosophy
and not necessarily compatible with unschooling in general.
But to each his or her own. I certainly respect freedom of choice
and hope that folks will strive for more informed choice about this
camp or any camp or summer program they investigate. As I said
before, I wish I had received this kind of open response when I
inquired before my daughter went to NBTSC. She says she would not
have bothered. She had an offer to be a nanny for a two year old in
New Orleans at a vintage dance conference, for which all her expenses
would have been paid, plus she would receive a set fee for her
services. And she also had an offer to attend a teen leadership
conference in Boston (UU) with all expenses paid, at the same time as
NBTSC, and she regrets that she didn't do one of those instead. But
NBTSC asks for very early committment, eliminating some of the other
things that might come up later. There are always other options.
Norma
[email protected]
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:28:44 -0000 "nyneca" <evkod@...> writes:
went to camp for a week, a year and a half ago. A few accomodations were
made for him (set up ahead of time) and he did know at least a handful of
the other campers, but it was a big deal for him.
Last summer another boy we know went for the first time. We've known him
for years, and he's always had difficulty picking up social cues and
fitting into his peer group. He also had a fairly successful experience -
he said he enjoyed it, and he made some friends to hang out with. Grace
talked with him some and helped him with some issues he was having, as
did some of the other campers ("Dude, you can't just go up and hug
people, sometimes they don't want a hug. Just go up and hold your arms
out, and they'll hug you if they want to.").
There have been 2 or 3 "camper parties" here on the farm where we live.
It was interesting to me that all the kids were doing different things,
they each had their own paths. Some had found something they loved and
were working in that field, others were exploring lots of paths. Some
looked very "straight", others had dyed or shaved heads and looked more
alternative. Some cooked meals for everyone, others never washed a dish
(although the group did create a dish chart). Some were friendly and
outgoing, others didn't say 2 words to me. They all seemed to be nice
kids - they included Rain when she was over there, walked her home at
night after Rocky Horror (100 yeards or so) - and she developed a nice
little case of hero-worship towards one lovely Canadian girl.
I know Norma has a story to tell -she's told it here and lots of other
places. Obviously there's another side to the story, both in general and
specifically, and people can make up their own minds.
Dar
> The NBTS website describes the hands-off approach that they take quitewell, but I
> had my doubts about how successful that policy is for everyone. GL hasseveral
> caveats about what types of kids would be suited to that type ofmy kids in a
> camping experience, which I read as red flags. I can't imagine putting
> situation where they can't rely on the responsible adults inattendance when situations
> arise that need correction.I do want to mention that I know a boy with Asberger's who sucessfully
>
went to camp for a week, a year and a half ago. A few accomodations were
made for him (set up ahead of time) and he did know at least a handful of
the other campers, but it was a big deal for him.
Last summer another boy we know went for the first time. We've known him
for years, and he's always had difficulty picking up social cues and
fitting into his peer group. He also had a fairly successful experience -
he said he enjoyed it, and he made some friends to hang out with. Grace
talked with him some and helped him with some issues he was having, as
did some of the other campers ("Dude, you can't just go up and hug
people, sometimes they don't want a hug. Just go up and hold your arms
out, and they'll hug you if they want to.").
There have been 2 or 3 "camper parties" here on the farm where we live.
It was interesting to me that all the kids were doing different things,
they each had their own paths. Some had found something they loved and
were working in that field, others were exploring lots of paths. Some
looked very "straight", others had dyed or shaved heads and looked more
alternative. Some cooked meals for everyone, others never washed a dish
(although the group did create a dish chart). Some were friendly and
outgoing, others didn't say 2 words to me. They all seemed to be nice
kids - they included Rain when she was over there, walked her home at
night after Rocky Horror (100 yeards or so) - and she developed a nice
little case of hero-worship towards one lovely Canadian girl.
I know Norma has a story to tell -she's told it here and lots of other
places. Obviously there's another side to the story, both in general and
specifically, and people can make up their own minds.
Dar