wanted to share this great article
emtroper2001
Getting Out of the Way
By Naomi Aldort
My husband and I are often complimented on our children's
behavior and
demeanor. People think that we discipline them. We don't. It is
ourselves we
discipline.
We meet our children's needs, provide for their protection, and
expose them
to life's possibilities. We do not, however, meddle in their play,
their
learning, their creativity, or any other form of growth. We love,
hug, feed,
share, listen, respond, and participate when asked. Yet, we keep
our
children free of insult and manipulation resulting from "helpful"
comments
and ideas - influences to which children are so sensitive in their
state of
dependency.
Parental Self-Discipline
This type of discipline is not easy. Not only does our society not
support
it, but the temptation to break the "rules" lives within us. The drive
to
intervene in children's activities is rooted in our upbringing and
reinforced in our culture.
For me, the most difficult challenge to overcome has been a
narcissistic
impulse to show off my children. One day, when our oldest child
was two
years old, he played a smooth scale on the piano. I was amazed,
yet held
fast to my rule and stayed out of his way. Free to play out of his
own love
and interest, and not to gratify me, he went on improving his
scale with
tremendous joy and concentration for quite some time. Not until
my husband
came home did I fall into the trap. Unable to wait for a repeat
performance
in its own time, I covertly tried to direct our son to the piano to do
his
"trick."
Untrained in doing for the sake of pleasing, he was not fooled.
He sensed
the hoax and refused to play. Several weeks passed before he
again immersed
himself in the scale. This child loves to do things for others,
enjoys
helping and serving; yet, when he does something out of self-
interest, that
is how it must remain.
Although the self-discipline required of a parent is often
challenging, it
becomes second nature with time and experience. For me, this
type of
discipline developed gradually, beginning with "descriptive
acknowledgment"1
and culminating in unadulterated staying-out-of-the-way a few
years later.
My best allies have been my realizations as a mother and
educator, Daniel
Greenberg's book Free at Last, and discussions with Jean
Liedloff, author of
The Continuum Concept, about letting children be themselves.
At first, I thought that commenting, acknowledging, and praising
children
for their achievements express love and build self-esteem. In
time, I
realized that these well-intended interventions do just the
opposite: they
foster dependency on external validation and undermine the
children's trust
in themselves. Children who are subjected to endless
commentary,
acknowledgment, and praise eventually learn to do things not for
their own
sake, but to please others. Gratifying others soon becomes their
primary
motivation, replacing impulses stemming from the authentic self
and leading
to its loss.
Contrary to common belief, children feel more loved and self-
assured when we
do not intervene in their activities. Not only do they remain secure
in our
love and support when we refrain from intervening, but they need
us to
protect them from these intrusions, which can interfere with their
progress,
self-reliance, and emotional well-being.
When we intervene with praise, wants, advice, and rewards,
doubts sneak in
and shake loose our children's trust in themselves and in us.
Sensitive and
smart, they perceive that we have an agenda - that we are
manipulating them
toward some preferred or "improved" end result. This
awareness gets them
thinking: "Perhaps what I am trying to achieve is wrong - I can't
trust
myself to know or choose," or "Mom and Dad have an agenda
that I must
fulfill if I am to have their approval and their love."
Gradually, a shift occurs. Children who were once doing for the
sake of
personal pleasure or understanding begin doing for the sake of
pleasing. No
longer do they trust in their actions, and no longer do they trust
us, for
we are not really on their side. Along with the shift to pleasing us
comes
the fear of not pleasing us. Emotional and intellectual
dependency, low
self-esteem, and lack of self-confidence invariably follow.
Even when we intervene with casual commentary on our
children's imaginative
play, doubts sneak in. What children are experiencing inwardly at
these
times is so often remote from our "educated" guesses that
bewilderment soon
turns to self-denial and self-doubt. Moreover, children perceive
the phony
and patronizing remarks for what they are, and may conclude
that it is OK to
be insincere and pretentious.
From Praising to Observing
It is difficult to stop dishing out praise. For one thing, we are
hooked on
our conditioning as well as on the "hard sell" of the holy cow
called
Praise. For another, we are easily misled: the praised-for-every-
achievement
child seems like a happy, successful, highly self-esteemed
child. In
reality, such a child has shifted to the pleasing mode, driven to
success
not by personal curiosity or delight, but by the desire to oblige us
and
live up to our expectations. As educator John Holt has said of
children,
"They are afraid, above all else, of failing, of disappointing or
displeasing the many anxious adults around them, whose
limitless hopes and
expectations for them hang over their heads like a cloud."2 In
short, the
esteem we notice is not self-esteem, for the self has been lost in
the early
years of this type of conditioning. The happiness we see is not
pleasure,
but rather relief that another pleasing act has been
accomplished, securing
parental approval (emotional survival) and concealing a feeling
of deep
loss.
Children, too, can be fooled into believing that these pleasing
behaviors
originate within and have everything to do with who they are. The
ultimate
deception comes when children grow up to become seemingly
accomplished and
happy adults. Psychoanalyst Alice Miller, in her book The Drama
of the
Gifted Child, gives voice to the lamentable conviction that arises:
"Without
these achievements, these gifts, I could never be loved....
Without these
qualities, which I have, a person is completely worthless." Miller
goes on
to explain why achievement based on pleasing denies self-
understanding and,
in so doing, leads to depression, feelings of 'never enough', and
other
emotional disturbances in often the most successful people.3
To "follow one's own drummer", a person needs to exercise the
muscles of
free choice and self-learning from the start. The difficulty we have
in
trusting our children's ability to flex these muscles stems from
our own
experience of not having been trusted. Trusting is, simply, not
natural to
us. Only as we make a concerted effort to get out - and stay out -
of our
children's way do we discover the wonderful truth: the magic is
already in
our children, ready to unfold in its own way and in its own time.
Nearly every child comes to life equipped with a self that is
capable of
blooming to capacity. Unhindered in its growth, this self will lead
the
child to skills and knowledge and, in the process, self-
actualization. We
have no right to attempt to control the direction of this growth.
Instead of
training our children through various forms of intervention to fit
our
vision for them, we need to train ourselves to respect nature's
creation and
to safeguard its full, authentic bloom.
Indeed, the end result we are looking for - an able, highly self-
esteemed,
creative, curious, and responsible human being - is already
observable in a
two-year-old child.4 Allowed to put these gifts to use in a self-
directed,
self-trusting way, the youngster will develop capabilities while
enhancing
these desirable qualities. Maturation will then come as an
authentic
expression of the self, rather than as an appeasement to
parental authority
and other forms of domination.
Getting out of the way gives us an opportunity to become curious
observers.
At the same time, it frees us of power struggles and initiates an
approach
to parenthood that is infinitely more enjoyable and fulfilling. I
know of no
more interesting, engaging, fascinating, and glorious
"entertainment" in
life than watching children unfold freely.
By Naomi Aldort
My husband and I are often complimented on our children's
behavior and
demeanor. People think that we discipline them. We don't. It is
ourselves we
discipline.
We meet our children's needs, provide for their protection, and
expose them
to life's possibilities. We do not, however, meddle in their play,
their
learning, their creativity, or any other form of growth. We love,
hug, feed,
share, listen, respond, and participate when asked. Yet, we keep
our
children free of insult and manipulation resulting from "helpful"
comments
and ideas - influences to which children are so sensitive in their
state of
dependency.
Parental Self-Discipline
This type of discipline is not easy. Not only does our society not
support
it, but the temptation to break the "rules" lives within us. The drive
to
intervene in children's activities is rooted in our upbringing and
reinforced in our culture.
For me, the most difficult challenge to overcome has been a
narcissistic
impulse to show off my children. One day, when our oldest child
was two
years old, he played a smooth scale on the piano. I was amazed,
yet held
fast to my rule and stayed out of his way. Free to play out of his
own love
and interest, and not to gratify me, he went on improving his
scale with
tremendous joy and concentration for quite some time. Not until
my husband
came home did I fall into the trap. Unable to wait for a repeat
performance
in its own time, I covertly tried to direct our son to the piano to do
his
"trick."
Untrained in doing for the sake of pleasing, he was not fooled.
He sensed
the hoax and refused to play. Several weeks passed before he
again immersed
himself in the scale. This child loves to do things for others,
enjoys
helping and serving; yet, when he does something out of self-
interest, that
is how it must remain.
Although the self-discipline required of a parent is often
challenging, it
becomes second nature with time and experience. For me, this
type of
discipline developed gradually, beginning with "descriptive
acknowledgment"1
and culminating in unadulterated staying-out-of-the-way a few
years later.
My best allies have been my realizations as a mother and
educator, Daniel
Greenberg's book Free at Last, and discussions with Jean
Liedloff, author of
The Continuum Concept, about letting children be themselves.
At first, I thought that commenting, acknowledging, and praising
children
for their achievements express love and build self-esteem. In
time, I
realized that these well-intended interventions do just the
opposite: they
foster dependency on external validation and undermine the
children's trust
in themselves. Children who are subjected to endless
commentary,
acknowledgment, and praise eventually learn to do things not for
their own
sake, but to please others. Gratifying others soon becomes their
primary
motivation, replacing impulses stemming from the authentic self
and leading
to its loss.
Contrary to common belief, children feel more loved and self-
assured when we
do not intervene in their activities. Not only do they remain secure
in our
love and support when we refrain from intervening, but they need
us to
protect them from these intrusions, which can interfere with their
progress,
self-reliance, and emotional well-being.
When we intervene with praise, wants, advice, and rewards,
doubts sneak in
and shake loose our children's trust in themselves and in us.
Sensitive and
smart, they perceive that we have an agenda - that we are
manipulating them
toward some preferred or "improved" end result. This
awareness gets them
thinking: "Perhaps what I am trying to achieve is wrong - I can't
trust
myself to know or choose," or "Mom and Dad have an agenda
that I must
fulfill if I am to have their approval and their love."
Gradually, a shift occurs. Children who were once doing for the
sake of
personal pleasure or understanding begin doing for the sake of
pleasing. No
longer do they trust in their actions, and no longer do they trust
us, for
we are not really on their side. Along with the shift to pleasing us
comes
the fear of not pleasing us. Emotional and intellectual
dependency, low
self-esteem, and lack of self-confidence invariably follow.
Even when we intervene with casual commentary on our
children's imaginative
play, doubts sneak in. What children are experiencing inwardly at
these
times is so often remote from our "educated" guesses that
bewilderment soon
turns to self-denial and self-doubt. Moreover, children perceive
the phony
and patronizing remarks for what they are, and may conclude
that it is OK to
be insincere and pretentious.
From Praising to Observing
It is difficult to stop dishing out praise. For one thing, we are
hooked on
our conditioning as well as on the "hard sell" of the holy cow
called
Praise. For another, we are easily misled: the praised-for-every-
achievement
child seems like a happy, successful, highly self-esteemed
child. In
reality, such a child has shifted to the pleasing mode, driven to
success
not by personal curiosity or delight, but by the desire to oblige us
and
live up to our expectations. As educator John Holt has said of
children,
"They are afraid, above all else, of failing, of disappointing or
displeasing the many anxious adults around them, whose
limitless hopes and
expectations for them hang over their heads like a cloud."2 In
short, the
esteem we notice is not self-esteem, for the self has been lost in
the early
years of this type of conditioning. The happiness we see is not
pleasure,
but rather relief that another pleasing act has been
accomplished, securing
parental approval (emotional survival) and concealing a feeling
of deep
loss.
Children, too, can be fooled into believing that these pleasing
behaviors
originate within and have everything to do with who they are. The
ultimate
deception comes when children grow up to become seemingly
accomplished and
happy adults. Psychoanalyst Alice Miller, in her book The Drama
of the
Gifted Child, gives voice to the lamentable conviction that arises:
"Without
these achievements, these gifts, I could never be loved....
Without these
qualities, which I have, a person is completely worthless." Miller
goes on
to explain why achievement based on pleasing denies self-
understanding and,
in so doing, leads to depression, feelings of 'never enough', and
other
emotional disturbances in often the most successful people.3
To "follow one's own drummer", a person needs to exercise the
muscles of
free choice and self-learning from the start. The difficulty we have
in
trusting our children's ability to flex these muscles stems from
our own
experience of not having been trusted. Trusting is, simply, not
natural to
us. Only as we make a concerted effort to get out - and stay out -
of our
children's way do we discover the wonderful truth: the magic is
already in
our children, ready to unfold in its own way and in its own time.
Nearly every child comes to life equipped with a self that is
capable of
blooming to capacity. Unhindered in its growth, this self will lead
the
child to skills and knowledge and, in the process, self-
actualization. We
have no right to attempt to control the direction of this growth.
Instead of
training our children through various forms of intervention to fit
our
vision for them, we need to train ourselves to respect nature's
creation and
to safeguard its full, authentic bloom.
Indeed, the end result we are looking for - an able, highly self-
esteemed,
creative, curious, and responsible human being - is already
observable in a
two-year-old child.4 Allowed to put these gifts to use in a self-
directed,
self-trusting way, the youngster will develop capabilities while
enhancing
these desirable qualities. Maturation will then come as an
authentic
expression of the self, rather than as an appeasement to
parental authority
and other forms of domination.
Getting out of the way gives us an opportunity to become curious
observers.
At the same time, it frees us of power struggles and initiates an
approach
to parenthood that is infinitely more enjoyable and fulfilling. I
know of no
more interesting, engaging, fascinating, and glorious
"entertainment" in
life than watching children unfold freely.
Sharon Rudd
Once when David (my oldest)was 5 he wrote a little
story. It was so beautiful and cute. It was about
the antics of "little loves" (little creatures he
illustrated with hearts with legs and happy faces). I
was So enchanted when he showed me. So Delighted, so
happy...he did it on his own....entirely. Then. I
STUPIDED OUT. (It makes me cry even now) I said "Oh,
this is WONDERFUL, why don't you go show your Daddy,
too?" So he did. After a while I went hunting for
David, I wanted to save this little story forever. I
found him crying in the closet. He said "YOU LIED TO
ME. IT (my story) WAS NO GOOD. IT WAS BAD. DADDY SAID
THE WORDS WERE SPELLED WRONG!! You could have told me
first, Mama, before I showed him, so that it would
have been right and not ALL WRONG AND BAD." David had
torn it all up and wadded and mushed it in the mud. He
never showed me another story that he wrote again.
NEVER. I snuck in his room (and when older into his
computer) and read them there. He HAS written poems
for and to me....And when I finally came to my senses,
I divorced his Daddy (ostensibly for other reasons,
but maybe only for things like that). XDH never did
understand what he had done wrong. He did lots of
stuff like that. Thick headed. How can persons with
good hearts be so cruel?
Oh I wish I could go back and just keep that little
story for myself and not have said "go show". He
shared it with ME and I did ruin it. However I did
learn a lesson. Don't say "go show" don't say "do that
for...." Just let the child BE. And be grateful that
they trust you enough to share their creations with. I
didn't make that mistake again, but it was too late
for David.
SOS
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
story. It was so beautiful and cute. It was about
the antics of "little loves" (little creatures he
illustrated with hearts with legs and happy faces). I
was So enchanted when he showed me. So Delighted, so
happy...he did it on his own....entirely. Then. I
STUPIDED OUT. (It makes me cry even now) I said "Oh,
this is WONDERFUL, why don't you go show your Daddy,
too?" So he did. After a while I went hunting for
David, I wanted to save this little story forever. I
found him crying in the closet. He said "YOU LIED TO
ME. IT (my story) WAS NO GOOD. IT WAS BAD. DADDY SAID
THE WORDS WERE SPELLED WRONG!! You could have told me
first, Mama, before I showed him, so that it would
have been right and not ALL WRONG AND BAD." David had
torn it all up and wadded and mushed it in the mud. He
never showed me another story that he wrote again.
NEVER. I snuck in his room (and when older into his
computer) and read them there. He HAS written poems
for and to me....And when I finally came to my senses,
I divorced his Daddy (ostensibly for other reasons,
but maybe only for things like that). XDH never did
understand what he had done wrong. He did lots of
stuff like that. Thick headed. How can persons with
good hearts be so cruel?
Oh I wish I could go back and just keep that little
story for myself and not have said "go show". He
shared it with ME and I did ruin it. However I did
learn a lesson. Don't say "go show" don't say "do that
for...." Just let the child BE. And be grateful that
they trust you enough to share their creations with. I
didn't make that mistake again, but it was too late
for David.
SOS
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Nancy Wooton
on 12/29/01 7:35 AM, Sharon Rudd at bearspawprint@... wrote:
Nancy
> DADDY SAID<snip>
> THE WORDS WERE SPELLED WRONG!! You could have told me
> first, Mama, before I showed him, so that it would
> have been right and not ALL WRONG AND BAD."
> XDH never didMaybe he saw it as a "teachable moment."
> understand what he had done wrong. He did lots of
> stuff like that. Thick headed. How can persons with
> good hearts be so cruel?
Nancy
[email protected]
I sent the article to my mom and here was her response:
things!! Maybe there's more to it than what the article says --- perhaps some
children are born with the ability to just blossom anyway if they are given
enough love and experiences. What do you think? The other posibility is that
all of you could have been even MORE exceptional and happier had I known all
this 50 years ago. Who knows?<<
I'm thinking that she didn't DO the wrong things all that often. She was
very young (21 when I was born) and this was the 50's and kids and adults
lived more separate lives. They were like the adults in the Rugrats -sort of
seen as helpful and sometimes demanding, but not entirely "real". I think
there was a certain amount of "benign neglect" only because it wasn't
expected that adults would organize children's time for them or interfere in
their play. School in the 50's was pretty calm -- they didn't expect kids to
even begin to learn to read until 2nd grade, when the Dick and Jane big books
were used. Kindergarten was only a half day and we played house and blocks
and visited the dairy and the airport and the fire department. We still had
naptime on mats on the floor in 1st grade. We didn't have any homework until
7th grade. We had a few afterschool activities - a dance/etiquette class and
Brownies/Girl Scouts and music lessons starting when we were around 10 or so.
There were no organized sports for girls. I ran all the way home from school
every day and changed clothes (we had to wear dresses to school, of course)
and I had a quick snack and went out to play with whatever kids were
available -- there were LOTS of kids in our neighborhood and we could ride
our bikes anywhere for blocks around including the local schools, shopping
center, and vacant lots. Or we'd go inside someone's house and play games or
play dolls or whatever. I spent a LOT of time playing various forms of bat
and ball games out in the street. There was pretty much always a game going
on out there. Boys and girls played together. Sometimes I played by myself
because I wanted to -- skating around and around on our big driveway or
reading a book up in a tree. I always felt like we had LOTS of time to play.
My parents didn't do much with us on a daily basis, except feed us and make
us take baths before bed - they mostly just let us be kids. We went to the
beach during the summer, we took a short vacation every once in a while, and
we went to Disneyland on my birthday. Once we went to the mountains to see
snow (less than 2 hours from home). But really we didn't do much. Our house
was FILLED with books, though, and my parents read a lot. My grandparents
lived in exotic places - like Libya and then Iran and then Turkey. They
stored some stuff in our garage - dressers with drawers FILLED with seashells
- I spent hours handling them and looking them up in field guides. They'd
also stored a filing cabinet that was filled with articles torn from
magazines and newspapers - no photocopiers, remember? My grandparents had
simply torn out any article that they thought was interesting and filed it
under subject headings. I used to just pull random articles out and read
about all different kinds of things.
I think what we had was the gift of huge amounts of free time with no adults
looking over our shoulders.
--pam
>>Yes, I found it interesting and agree with most of it I think but also amwondering how I raised such wonderful children while doing all the wrong
things!! Maybe there's more to it than what the article says --- perhaps some
children are born with the ability to just blossom anyway if they are given
enough love and experiences. What do you think? The other posibility is that
all of you could have been even MORE exceptional and happier had I known all
this 50 years ago. Who knows?<<
I'm thinking that she didn't DO the wrong things all that often. She was
very young (21 when I was born) and this was the 50's and kids and adults
lived more separate lives. They were like the adults in the Rugrats -sort of
seen as helpful and sometimes demanding, but not entirely "real". I think
there was a certain amount of "benign neglect" only because it wasn't
expected that adults would organize children's time for them or interfere in
their play. School in the 50's was pretty calm -- they didn't expect kids to
even begin to learn to read until 2nd grade, when the Dick and Jane big books
were used. Kindergarten was only a half day and we played house and blocks
and visited the dairy and the airport and the fire department. We still had
naptime on mats on the floor in 1st grade. We didn't have any homework until
7th grade. We had a few afterschool activities - a dance/etiquette class and
Brownies/Girl Scouts and music lessons starting when we were around 10 or so.
There were no organized sports for girls. I ran all the way home from school
every day and changed clothes (we had to wear dresses to school, of course)
and I had a quick snack and went out to play with whatever kids were
available -- there were LOTS of kids in our neighborhood and we could ride
our bikes anywhere for blocks around including the local schools, shopping
center, and vacant lots. Or we'd go inside someone's house and play games or
play dolls or whatever. I spent a LOT of time playing various forms of bat
and ball games out in the street. There was pretty much always a game going
on out there. Boys and girls played together. Sometimes I played by myself
because I wanted to -- skating around and around on our big driveway or
reading a book up in a tree. I always felt like we had LOTS of time to play.
My parents didn't do much with us on a daily basis, except feed us and make
us take baths before bed - they mostly just let us be kids. We went to the
beach during the summer, we took a short vacation every once in a while, and
we went to Disneyland on my birthday. Once we went to the mountains to see
snow (less than 2 hours from home). But really we didn't do much. Our house
was FILLED with books, though, and my parents read a lot. My grandparents
lived in exotic places - like Libya and then Iran and then Turkey. They
stored some stuff in our garage - dressers with drawers FILLED with seashells
- I spent hours handling them and looking them up in field guides. They'd
also stored a filing cabinet that was filled with articles torn from
magazines and newspapers - no photocopiers, remember? My grandparents had
simply torn out any article that they thought was interesting and filed it
under subject headings. I used to just pull random articles out and read
about all different kinds of things.
I think what we had was the gift of huge amounts of free time with no adults
looking over our shoulders.
--pam
Sharon Rudd
She was
my house(s) weren't like this at all!!! My mother was
19.
However I do agree with your mother that some kids do
just blossom and turn out wonderful in spite of all
sorts of set-backs. As a mother, I have been blessed
this way. My boys and sister are all beautiful,
bright, creative, lovely human beings even though they
all had unfortunate experiences along the way.
Perhaps sadness adds depth? But I do wish I could
have sparred them so much of this.
SOS
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
> very young (21 when I was born) and this was theWhoa Pam......I was born in 1949....and the fifties at
> 50's and kids and adults
> lived more separate lives.
my house(s) weren't like this at all!!! My mother was
19.
However I do agree with your mother that some kids do
just blossom and turn out wonderful in spite of all
sorts of set-backs. As a mother, I have been blessed
this way. My boys and sister are all beautiful,
bright, creative, lovely human beings even though they
all had unfortunate experiences along the way.
Perhaps sadness adds depth? But I do wish I could
have sparred them so much of this.
SOS
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Leslie
.....I think there was a certain amount of "benign neglect" only because it wasn't
expected that adults would organize children's time for them or interfere in their play.--pam.........
Benign neglect is the same term I use to describe my parents style of parenting. We did go to school but we didn't get homework until high school. It wasn't at all like what the kids are forced to do these days.
We had to wear dresses too, once we hit junior high, and I hated it. My legs were so skinny they called them Bick refills when I wore navy tights, and my knees were so bony they called them door knobs! But all of that was relatively minor because we seemed to have lots of time to play and wander the neighborhood. Our friends were all ages, whoever was around.
These days the kids are all busy with after school programs and homework. It's as if there are no children in our neighborhood, even during holidays. Arrangements are made to fill all of their time even during holidays! The toddlers are double programmed to make sure they have every advantage for early learning. The ones that can't afford all of the enrichment programs are at daycare centers until supper time and then early to bed so that their parents can have "time" and so that they can cope with the early morning routines.
Daisy's piano teach told me that when her kids were young they had over 160 kids under 13 on their street at one time. She used to flood their yard for ice-skating in winter, and she would come home to find a dozen kids in the yard, none of them their own! My kids know some others on the street but rarely get invited to play and are never invited to birthday parties.
Our lifestyle is too much for most people to cope with. Unfortunately our people, those who don't send their kids to school, are scattered all around and it's not easy for the kids to get together casually for good old fashioned play. We have an open house every other week but it's not nearly enough to satisfy my kids needs for playmates. My oldest was into hockey and baseball, which gave him a good-sized pool of niebourhood kids to play with but my 12yo isn't into group sports and he's having a hard time in the friend area. I need to find a way to attract some kids for him and his little sister.
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
expected that adults would organize children's time for them or interfere in their play.--pam.........
Benign neglect is the same term I use to describe my parents style of parenting. We did go to school but we didn't get homework until high school. It wasn't at all like what the kids are forced to do these days.
We had to wear dresses too, once we hit junior high, and I hated it. My legs were so skinny they called them Bick refills when I wore navy tights, and my knees were so bony they called them door knobs! But all of that was relatively minor because we seemed to have lots of time to play and wander the neighborhood. Our friends were all ages, whoever was around.
These days the kids are all busy with after school programs and homework. It's as if there are no children in our neighborhood, even during holidays. Arrangements are made to fill all of their time even during holidays! The toddlers are double programmed to make sure they have every advantage for early learning. The ones that can't afford all of the enrichment programs are at daycare centers until supper time and then early to bed so that their parents can have "time" and so that they can cope with the early morning routines.
Daisy's piano teach told me that when her kids were young they had over 160 kids under 13 on their street at one time. She used to flood their yard for ice-skating in winter, and she would come home to find a dozen kids in the yard, none of them their own! My kids know some others on the street but rarely get invited to play and are never invited to birthday parties.
Our lifestyle is too much for most people to cope with. Unfortunately our people, those who don't send their kids to school, are scattered all around and it's not easy for the kids to get together casually for good old fashioned play. We have an open house every other week but it's not nearly enough to satisfy my kids needs for playmates. My oldest was into hockey and baseball, which gave him a good-sized pool of niebourhood kids to play with but my 12yo isn't into group sports and he's having a hard time in the friend area. I need to find a way to attract some kids for him and his little sister.
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jorgen & Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: Leslie
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Getting out of the way
.....I think there was a certain amount of "benign neglect" only because it wasn't
expected that adults would organize children's time for them or interfere in their play.--pam.........
Benign neglect is the same term I use to describe my parents style of parenting. We did go to school but we didn't get homework until high school. It wasn't at all like what the kids are forced to do these days.
We had to wear dresses too, once we hit junior high, and I hated it. My legs were so skinny they called them Bick refills when I wore navy tights, and my knees were so bony they called them door knobs! But all of that was relatively minor because we seemed to have lots of time to play and wander the neighborhood. Our friends were all ages, whoever was around.
These days the kids are all busy with after school programs and homework. It's as if there are no children in our neighborhood, even during holidays. Arrangements are made to fill all of their time even during holidays! The toddlers are double programmed to make sure they have every advantage for early learning. The ones that can't afford all of the enrichment programs are at daycare centers until supper time and then early to bed so that their parents can have "time" and so that they can cope with the early morning routines.
Daisy's piano teach told me that when her kids were young they had over 160 kids under 13 on their street at one time. She used to flood their yard for ice-skating in winter, and she would come home to find a dozen kids in the yard, none of them their own! My kids know some others on the street but rarely get invited to play and are never invited to birthday parties.
Our lifestyle is too much for most people to cope with. Unfortunately our people, those who don't send their kids to school, are scattered all around and it's not easy for the kids to get together casually for good old fashioned play. We have an open house every other week but it's not nearly enough to satisfy my kids needs for playmates. My oldest was into hockey and baseball, which gave him a good-sized pool of niebourhood kids to play with but my 12yo isn't into group sports and he's having a hard time in the friend area. I need to find a way to attract some kids for him and his little sister.
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jorgen & Ann
<<These days the kids are all busy with after school programs and homework. It's as if there are no children in our neighborhood, even during holidays. >>
No children in your neighborhood? We don't seem to have any **people** in our neighborhood. Most days it seems like a wasteland with rows of empty shells. Granted, we do have a lot of retired people living right near us, so that means fewer kids. But even they are hardly ever around. We do have a park in our town, but there are rarely any kids there, even toddlers. Older kids are usually found at the park only for softball league games.
We have times when we feel isolated and we will get off our butts and drive to hang out with people. And my kids really like being friends with adults too, so that helps.
Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No children in your neighborhood? We don't seem to have any **people** in our neighborhood. Most days it seems like a wasteland with rows of empty shells. Granted, we do have a lot of retired people living right near us, so that means fewer kids. But even they are hardly ever around. We do have a park in our town, but there are rarely any kids there, even toddlers. Older kids are usually found at the park only for softball league games.
We have times when we feel isolated and we will get off our butts and drive to hang out with people. And my kids really like being friends with adults too, so that helps.
Ann
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/29/01 10:20:53 PM, PSoroosh@... writes:
<< I'm thinking that she didn't DO the wrong things all that often. She was
very young (21 when I was born) and this was the 50's and kids and adults
lived more separate lives. They were like the adults in the Rugrats -sort of
seen as helpful and sometimes demanding, but not entirely "real". I think
there was a certain amount of "benign neglect" only because it wasn't
expected that adults would organize children's time for them or interfere in
their play. >>
Wow, Pam, sounds just like my childhood! Except for the exotic grandparents
part <g>.
I do think this is true. Add to it that my mom really listened to me when I
talked - although I was a lot less likely to talk to her than my kids are to
me. We live in a fantastic neighborhood where, though all the kids go to
school, the parents let the kids alone to play and do their own thing. Last
summer, we finally infected everyone with our do-nothingness, and none of the
children went to camp. My kids were so happy.
Paula
<< I'm thinking that she didn't DO the wrong things all that often. She was
very young (21 when I was born) and this was the 50's and kids and adults
lived more separate lives. They were like the adults in the Rugrats -sort of
seen as helpful and sometimes demanding, but not entirely "real". I think
there was a certain amount of "benign neglect" only because it wasn't
expected that adults would organize children's time for them or interfere in
their play. >>
Wow, Pam, sounds just like my childhood! Except for the exotic grandparents
part <g>.
I do think this is true. Add to it that my mom really listened to me when I
talked - although I was a lot less likely to talk to her than my kids are to
me. We live in a fantastic neighborhood where, though all the kids go to
school, the parents let the kids alone to play and do their own thing. Last
summer, we finally infected everyone with our do-nothingness, and none of the
children went to camp. My kids were so happy.
Paula
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/29/01 8:20:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
PSoroosh@... writes:
<<
I think what we had was the gift of huge amounts of free time with no adults
looking over our shoulders. >>
Yes this is it. I would describe my childhood and my parents parenting
much the same. There was definitely some distance in my early
years, babysitters, mom working, trips to the river leaving the baby
(that would have been me) at home for the weekend with my aunt.
My sis says that is probably why attachment parent like I do (some
of my friends say nobody holds there baby as much as I do and I
used to hang regularly with LLL/AP folk). Once my mom quit working
to be home with me we really connected. I have no real memories of
my mom before 5 but I do of my sibs and the babysitter whom they
used to pick me up from (babysitter was also my kindergarten
teacher who was very sweet). Anyhow now that I went off on that
tangent, I agree, one of the best things my parents did for me
was allow me that free time after school, on weekends and summer
vacations were a dream : ) Even my own children who I have
tried so hard to keep from growing up too quickly (classes here
classes there) are probably more rushed then I would like them
to be. I think there is so much pressure, even amongst hs'ers
to have kids in these "enriching" activities (not to mention my
everyday activities that keep us busy -we run a business from
our home that sometimes has me going when I don't always
want to be).
Kathy
PSoroosh@... writes:
<<
I think what we had was the gift of huge amounts of free time with no adults
looking over our shoulders. >>
Yes this is it. I would describe my childhood and my parents parenting
much the same. There was definitely some distance in my early
years, babysitters, mom working, trips to the river leaving the baby
(that would have been me) at home for the weekend with my aunt.
My sis says that is probably why attachment parent like I do (some
of my friends say nobody holds there baby as much as I do and I
used to hang regularly with LLL/AP folk). Once my mom quit working
to be home with me we really connected. I have no real memories of
my mom before 5 but I do of my sibs and the babysitter whom they
used to pick me up from (babysitter was also my kindergarten
teacher who was very sweet). Anyhow now that I went off on that
tangent, I agree, one of the best things my parents did for me
was allow me that free time after school, on weekends and summer
vacations were a dream : ) Even my own children who I have
tried so hard to keep from growing up too quickly (classes here
classes there) are probably more rushed then I would like them
to be. I think there is so much pressure, even amongst hs'ers
to have kids in these "enriching" activities (not to mention my
everyday activities that keep us busy -we run a business from
our home that sometimes has me going when I don't always
want to be).
Kathy
meghan anderson
<<<<Once when David (my oldest)was 5 he wrote a little
story. It was so beautiful and cute. It was about
the antics of "little loves" (little creatures he
illustrated with hearts with legs and happy faces). I
was So enchanted when he showed me. So Delighted, so
happy...he did it on his own....entirely. Then. I
STUPIDED OUT. (It makes me cry even now) I said "Oh,
this is WONDERFUL, why don't you go show your Daddy,
too?" So he did. After a while I went hunting for
David, I wanted to save this little story forever. I
found him crying in the closet. He said "YOU LIED TO
ME. IT (my story) WAS NO GOOD. IT WAS BAD. DADDY SAID
THE WORDS WERE SPELLED WRONG!! You could have told me
first, Mama, before I showed him, so that it would
have been right and not ALL WRONG AND BAD." David had
torn it all up and wadded and mushed it in the mud. He
never showed me another story that he wrote again.
NEVER. I snuck in his room (and when older into his
computer) and read them there. He HAS written poems
for and to me....And when I finally came to my senses,
I divorced his Daddy (ostensibly for other reasons,
but maybe only for things like that). XDH never did
understand what he had done wrong. He did lots of
stuff like that. Thick headed. How can persons with
good hearts be so cruel?
Oh I wish I could go back and just keep that little
story for myself and not have said "go show". He
shared it with ME and I did ruin it. However I did
learn a lesson. Don't say "go show" don't say "do that
for...." Just let the child BE. And be grateful that
they trust you enough to share their creations with. I
didn't make that mistake again, but it was too late
for David.
SOS>>>>
Oh Sharon,
How awful for both of you! I'm sorry.
Meghan :-)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
story. It was so beautiful and cute. It was about
the antics of "little loves" (little creatures he
illustrated with hearts with legs and happy faces). I
was So enchanted when he showed me. So Delighted, so
happy...he did it on his own....entirely. Then. I
STUPIDED OUT. (It makes me cry even now) I said "Oh,
this is WONDERFUL, why don't you go show your Daddy,
too?" So he did. After a while I went hunting for
David, I wanted to save this little story forever. I
found him crying in the closet. He said "YOU LIED TO
ME. IT (my story) WAS NO GOOD. IT WAS BAD. DADDY SAID
THE WORDS WERE SPELLED WRONG!! You could have told me
first, Mama, before I showed him, so that it would
have been right and not ALL WRONG AND BAD." David had
torn it all up and wadded and mushed it in the mud. He
never showed me another story that he wrote again.
NEVER. I snuck in his room (and when older into his
computer) and read them there. He HAS written poems
for and to me....And when I finally came to my senses,
I divorced his Daddy (ostensibly for other reasons,
but maybe only for things like that). XDH never did
understand what he had done wrong. He did lots of
stuff like that. Thick headed. How can persons with
good hearts be so cruel?
Oh I wish I could go back and just keep that little
story for myself and not have said "go show". He
shared it with ME and I did ruin it. However I did
learn a lesson. Don't say "go show" don't say "do that
for...." Just let the child BE. And be grateful that
they trust you enough to share their creations with. I
didn't make that mistake again, but it was too late
for David.
SOS>>>>
Oh Sharon,
How awful for both of you! I'm sorry.
Meghan :-)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
meghan anderson
<<<<I think what we had was the gift of huge amounts
of free time with no
adults
looking over our shoulders.
--pam>>>>
Absolutely! I remember when I was a kid we used to run
all over the neighbourhood, playing games, climbing
trees, exploring the creek, etc. The only 'extra'
activities I had were piano lessons (from my best
friend's mom, and 5 houses away!) and Bluebirds (then
Campfire Girls).
Kindergarten was until noon (and there was naptime in
there as well!), then we went home for lunch. First
grade was until 2pm (that's when we started on Dick
and Jane). We certainly didn't have homework in
elementary school! I started school in 1969 though.
Meghan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
of free time with no
adults
looking over our shoulders.
--pam>>>>
Absolutely! I remember when I was a kid we used to run
all over the neighbourhood, playing games, climbing
trees, exploring the creek, etc. The only 'extra'
activities I had were piano lessons (from my best
friend's mom, and 5 houses away!) and Bluebirds (then
Campfire Girls).
Kindergarten was until noon (and there was naptime in
there as well!), then we went home for lunch. First
grade was until 2pm (that's when we started on Dick
and Jane). We certainly didn't have homework in
elementary school! I started school in 1969 though.
Meghan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/31/2001 1:01:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
moonmeghan@... writes:
school moved it to 1st grade just a couple of years behind me - my sister had
Dick and Jane in 1st grade when I was in 3rd grade. But I remember waiting
and waiting and waiting for the chance to learn to read (I'd picked up a
bunch, but it wasn't "official") and I expected to start on the first day of
2nd grade. But it wasn't to be. I waited about 6 WEEKS into 2nd grade before
the Dick and Jane books were finally brought out.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
moonmeghan@... writes:
> FirstAnd by then they'd already moved reading down to first grade. Actually my own
> grade was until 2pm (that's when we started on Dick
> and Jane). We certainly didn't have homework in
> elementary school! I started school in 1969 though.
school moved it to 1st grade just a couple of years behind me - my sister had
Dick and Jane in 1st grade when I was in 3rd grade. But I remember waiting
and waiting and waiting for the chance to learn to read (I'd picked up a
bunch, but it wasn't "official") and I expected to start on the first day of
2nd grade. But it wasn't to be. I waited about 6 WEEKS into 2nd grade before
the Dick and Jane books were finally brought out.
--pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
meghan anderson
<<<<I need to find a way to attract some kids
for him and his little sister.
Leslie>>>>
I was pondering this myself recently. I've decided to
put up some flyers. I'm going to 'advertise' for other
unschoolers. I'm going to put some up at the library,
2nd hand kids shop, grocery store, etc. I figure I''ve
got nothing to lose and we have everything to gain
from it. The vast majority of home schoolers around
here are very religious and don't mix with others
much. I have found 2 other unschooling families and
I'm sure there must be more out there somewhere, it's
just a matter of finding them! Oh, how I wish we could
all be closer together!
Meghan :-)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
for him and his little sister.
Leslie>>>>
I was pondering this myself recently. I've decided to
put up some flyers. I'm going to 'advertise' for other
unschoolers. I'm going to put some up at the library,
2nd hand kids shop, grocery store, etc. I figure I''ve
got nothing to lose and we have everything to gain
from it. The vast majority of home schoolers around
here are very religious and don't mix with others
much. I have found 2 other unschooling families and
I'm sure there must be more out there somewhere, it's
just a matter of finding them! Oh, how I wish we could
all be closer together!
Meghan :-)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Sharon Rudd
>Thanks, Meghan
> Oh Sharon,
> How awful for both of you! I'm sorry.
>
> Meghan :-)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Tia Leschke
>That's how it was for me, and I started school in 1953. Were you in
>Kindergarten was until noon (and there was naptime in
>there as well!), then we went home for lunch. First
>grade was until 2pm (that's when we started on Dick
>and Jane). We certainly didn't have homework in
>elementary school! I started school in 1969 though.
California? I grew up in Berkeley.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
meghan anderson
<<<<That's how it was for me, and I started school in
1953. Were you in
California? I grew up in Berkeley.
Tia>>>>
Yes, I grew up in Mill Valley (across the bay from
you). It's funny, I went to Mill Valley a few weeks
ago (while I was visiting my mum in San Rafael) and
was struck again by how much it's changed. It used to
be a fun little 'hippie' town and now it's full of
'million' dollar homes, posh cars and chi chi
boutiques! What a shame.
Meghan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
1953. Were you in
California? I grew up in Berkeley.
Tia>>>>
Yes, I grew up in Mill Valley (across the bay from
you). It's funny, I went to Mill Valley a few weeks
ago (while I was visiting my mum in San Rafael) and
was struck again by how much it's changed. It used to
be a fun little 'hippie' town and now it's full of
'million' dollar homes, posh cars and chi chi
boutiques! What a shame.
Meghan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
http://greetings.yahoo.com
Leslie
Thanks for this story Sharon. I'm soooo guilty of this behavior!!!!! I'm always so excited to show the kids off, to Grandma or whoever, and I've broken many spells of enchanted learning and doing :~( I'm going to continue to resist my Mother Pride, or whatever it might be called, more diligently in the future. Thanks again for sharing your story!!! It's a reminder I'm going to save and reread regularly. I'm adding it to my mantra for sure!
Leslie
Leslie
----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon Rudd
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Getting out of the way
Once when David (my oldest)was 5 he wrote a little
story. It was so beautiful and cute. It was about
the antics of "little loves" (little creatures he
illustrated with hearts with legs and happy faces). I
was So enchanted when he showed me. So Delighted, so
happy...he did it on his own....entirely. Then. I
STUPIDED OUT. (It makes me cry even now) I said "Oh,
this is WONDERFUL, why don't you go show your Daddy,
too?" So he did. After a while I went hunting for
David, I wanted to save this little story forever. I
found him crying in the closet. He said "YOU LIED TO
ME. IT (my story) WAS NO GOOD. IT WAS BAD. DADDY SAID
THE WORDS WERE SPELLED WRONG!! You could have told me
first, Mama, before I showed him, so that it would
have been right and not ALL WRONG AND BAD." David had
torn it all up and wadded and mushed it in the mud. He
never showed me another story that he wrote again.
NEVER. I snuck in his room (and when older into his
computer) and read them there. He HAS written poems
for and to me....And when I finally came to my senses,
I divorced his Daddy (ostensibly for other reasons,
but maybe only for things like that). XDH never did
understand what he had done wrong. He did lots of
stuff like that. Thick headed. How can persons with
good hearts be so cruel?
Oh I wish I could go back and just keep that little
story for myself and not have said "go show". He
shared it with ME and I did ruin it. However I did
learn a lesson. Don't say "go show" don't say "do that
for...." Just let the child BE. And be grateful that
they trust you enough to share their creations with. I
didn't make that mistake again, but it was too late
for David.
SOS
__________________________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]