What do you think?
aicitticia
I think this was linked either off of the unschooling.com website???
I don't know how I got here, but I did and am interested in your
opinions and feedback on this article. I had posted it to our
attachment parenting group that is mainly a group of parents with
babies and young children and I was suprised how they all responded.
It went from a conversation about violence and media to Barbie??? It
really was frightening to me how controlling some of the parents
were over toys and *how* their children played. Some moms were
responding how Barbie and the Bratz dolls would NEVER be allowed in
their homes and how they would tell all their relatives NOT to buy
those things for their kids.
I have seen Chloe play in a way that *I* don't always *understand*,
but it makes perfect fun and sense to her and that is the point
right?? I think that so many parents are trying so hard to make kids
into mini-adults by making them play by adult rules. It has taken me
30 years to make some sense of the world, still working on this ;).
To impose adult feelings into play just feels so wrong to me. What
do you all think? Just looking for some bigger thoughts on this :)
Anyway, here is the article...I'm sure some of you have read it.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hollow/1093/vidgames_gerardjones.h
tml
I read this article and then am re-reading it now. I was interested
on some feedback on it from unschoolers.
I really want to respond to my post on my other list with a broader
perspective then the whole AP jumpin' on the bandwagon agreeable
stream of thought that is going on over there. I think an urk in
their perspective would be healthy for them...they just don't know
it ;) lol.
Ticia
I don't know how I got here, but I did and am interested in your
opinions and feedback on this article. I had posted it to our
attachment parenting group that is mainly a group of parents with
babies and young children and I was suprised how they all responded.
It went from a conversation about violence and media to Barbie??? It
really was frightening to me how controlling some of the parents
were over toys and *how* their children played. Some moms were
responding how Barbie and the Bratz dolls would NEVER be allowed in
their homes and how they would tell all their relatives NOT to buy
those things for their kids.
I have seen Chloe play in a way that *I* don't always *understand*,
but it makes perfect fun and sense to her and that is the point
right?? I think that so many parents are trying so hard to make kids
into mini-adults by making them play by adult rules. It has taken me
30 years to make some sense of the world, still working on this ;).
To impose adult feelings into play just feels so wrong to me. What
do you all think? Just looking for some bigger thoughts on this :)
Anyway, here is the article...I'm sure some of you have read it.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hollow/1093/vidgames_gerardjones.h
tml
I read this article and then am re-reading it now. I was interested
on some feedback on it from unschoolers.
I really want to respond to my post on my other list with a broader
perspective then the whole AP jumpin' on the bandwagon agreeable
stream of thought that is going on over there. I think an urk in
their perspective would be healthy for them...they just don't know
it ;) lol.
Ticia
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/14/04 2:10:18 PM, ticiamama@... writes:
<<
It went from a conversation about violence and media to Barbie??? It
really was frightening to me how controlling some of the parents
were over toys and *how* their children played. >>
But that article is not in favor of people controlling it. The author is
saying that kids Do need to fantasize about violence, and it doesn't hurt them to
play it out.
<<I really want to respond to my post on my other list with a broader
perspective then the whole AP jumpin' on the bandwagon agreeable
stream of thought that is going on over there.>>
OH!!! Your AP parenting group said they controlled Barbie play!!!!
How old are their kids!?
I'm guessing you came to this group because it's listed on my main
unschooling page, and maybe you found this
(http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hollow/1093/vidgames_gerardjones.html) because it's on Kathy Ward's site and was linked
form mine, probably.
Kathy Ward, Dan Vilter and I did a workshop on video games, and she had just
before that come across this article.
I think this group is pretty full of attachment parenting families too.
It surprised me when I was in La Leche League and as people's kids got older
(five, six) some of the parents were controlling in ways that seemed disjoint
to me. The mother of a boy Kirby's age was adamantly opposed to his having
any character-shirts or (HEAVEN FORBID) bedsheets or blankets. She was going
to pay very much extra to get artsy-printed sheets from some expensive
buy-at-home thing because he had wanted Toy Story or whatever its equivalent was in
those days sheets, and she would NOT have him influenced by Disney even when he
was asleep. Yet she was fine giving him a pocket knife.
Different people have different priorities, and if a family's priority is
being chic and radical, they might make decisions for their children designed to
maintain their household's appearance of chic and radical.
My priorities are learning opportunities and happiness. I want them to have
chances to see, hear, taste, smell and touch new and different things every
day. I don't want their lives to be boring.
I'm more afraid of a five year old with a knife than I am of Barbie
pillowcases.
I realize those aren't my only two choices, but on a continuum containing
those two things, I'd dive for Barbie, even though when I was a child I thought
Barbies were odiously pink and wasteful. My daughter has "Barbieland"--a
closet under the stairs that's all Barbie, all the time.
Marty is designing a video game with RPG Maker II which he got for his 15th
birthday. They're talking about what "levels" it will have, and one secret
level might be Barbieland. <g>
What was the question!? <bwg>
Attachment parenting isn't anti-video game. Chic-and-radical is
pro-appearances.
Sandra
<<
It went from a conversation about violence and media to Barbie??? It
really was frightening to me how controlling some of the parents
were over toys and *how* their children played. >>
But that article is not in favor of people controlling it. The author is
saying that kids Do need to fantasize about violence, and it doesn't hurt them to
play it out.
<<I really want to respond to my post on my other list with a broader
perspective then the whole AP jumpin' on the bandwagon agreeable
stream of thought that is going on over there.>>
OH!!! Your AP parenting group said they controlled Barbie play!!!!
How old are their kids!?
I'm guessing you came to this group because it's listed on my main
unschooling page, and maybe you found this
(http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hollow/1093/vidgames_gerardjones.html) because it's on Kathy Ward's site and was linked
form mine, probably.
Kathy Ward, Dan Vilter and I did a workshop on video games, and she had just
before that come across this article.
I think this group is pretty full of attachment parenting families too.
It surprised me when I was in La Leche League and as people's kids got older
(five, six) some of the parents were controlling in ways that seemed disjoint
to me. The mother of a boy Kirby's age was adamantly opposed to his having
any character-shirts or (HEAVEN FORBID) bedsheets or blankets. She was going
to pay very much extra to get artsy-printed sheets from some expensive
buy-at-home thing because he had wanted Toy Story or whatever its equivalent was in
those days sheets, and she would NOT have him influenced by Disney even when he
was asleep. Yet she was fine giving him a pocket knife.
Different people have different priorities, and if a family's priority is
being chic and radical, they might make decisions for their children designed to
maintain their household's appearance of chic and radical.
My priorities are learning opportunities and happiness. I want them to have
chances to see, hear, taste, smell and touch new and different things every
day. I don't want their lives to be boring.
I'm more afraid of a five year old with a knife than I am of Barbie
pillowcases.
I realize those aren't my only two choices, but on a continuum containing
those two things, I'd dive for Barbie, even though when I was a child I thought
Barbies were odiously pink and wasteful. My daughter has "Barbieland"--a
closet under the stairs that's all Barbie, all the time.
Marty is designing a video game with RPG Maker II which he got for his 15th
birthday. They're talking about what "levels" it will have, and one secret
level might be Barbieland. <g>
What was the question!? <bwg>
Attachment parenting isn't anti-video game. Chic-and-radical is
pro-appearances.
Sandra
Ticia
But that article is not in favor of people controlling it. The author is
saying that kids Do need to fantasize about violence, and it doesn't hurt them to
play it out.
--Yes this is what I *got* too.
How old are their kids!?
--Mostly toddlers/babies...so at this point it *is* their own "parental fantasy" of how they will play out their childs' childhood. Wow that sounds sad and it is, but that is the feeling I get a lot of time with their conversations.
I'm guessing you came to this group because it's listed on my main
unschooling page, and maybe you found this
(http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hollow/1093/vidgames_gerardjones.html) because it's on Kathy Ward's site and was linked
form mine, probably.
--Yep I think that is how I arrived :).
Kathy Ward, Dan Vilter and I did a workshop on video games, and she had just
before that come across this article.
I think this group is pretty full of attachment parenting families too.
It surprised me when I was in La Leche League and as people's kids got older
(five, six) some of the parents were controlling in ways that seemed disjoint
to me. The mother of a boy Kirby's age was adamantly opposed to his having
any character-shirts or (HEAVEN FORBID) bedsheets or blankets. She was going
to pay very much extra to get artsy-printed sheets from some expensive
buy-at-home thing because he had wanted Toy Story or whatever its equivalent was in
those days sheets, and she would NOT have him influenced by Disney even when he
was asleep. Yet she was fine giving him a pocket knife.
--This is so true amongst some of the parents in our own circles. Although it isn't a pocket knife in our circle it is a sword.
I'm more afraid of a five year old with a knife than I am of Barbie
pillowcases.
--Although you didn't factor in the smothering issue with the Barbie pillowcases {{{shiver}}}...lol [insert evil barbie lipped smile].
They're talking about what "levels" it will have, and one secret
level might be Barbieland. <g>
--Nice twist :)...I often played Barbie vs Star Wars. Barbie would always have to fight Leia for Luke only to find out later that they were related.
What was the question!? <bwg>
--Umm...I forget, but I got a good answer :)
Attachment parenting isn't anti-video game. Chic-and-radical is
pro-appearances.
Sandra
Yup.
Ticia
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
saying that kids Do need to fantasize about violence, and it doesn't hurt them to
play it out.
--Yes this is what I *got* too.
How old are their kids!?
--Mostly toddlers/babies...so at this point it *is* their own "parental fantasy" of how they will play out their childs' childhood. Wow that sounds sad and it is, but that is the feeling I get a lot of time with their conversations.
I'm guessing you came to this group because it's listed on my main
unschooling page, and maybe you found this
(http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hollow/1093/vidgames_gerardjones.html) because it's on Kathy Ward's site and was linked
form mine, probably.
--Yep I think that is how I arrived :).
Kathy Ward, Dan Vilter and I did a workshop on video games, and she had just
before that come across this article.
I think this group is pretty full of attachment parenting families too.
It surprised me when I was in La Leche League and as people's kids got older
(five, six) some of the parents were controlling in ways that seemed disjoint
to me. The mother of a boy Kirby's age was adamantly opposed to his having
any character-shirts or (HEAVEN FORBID) bedsheets or blankets. She was going
to pay very much extra to get artsy-printed sheets from some expensive
buy-at-home thing because he had wanted Toy Story or whatever its equivalent was in
those days sheets, and she would NOT have him influenced by Disney even when he
was asleep. Yet she was fine giving him a pocket knife.
--This is so true amongst some of the parents in our own circles. Although it isn't a pocket knife in our circle it is a sword.
I'm more afraid of a five year old with a knife than I am of Barbie
pillowcases.
--Although you didn't factor in the smothering issue with the Barbie pillowcases {{{shiver}}}...lol [insert evil barbie lipped smile].
They're talking about what "levels" it will have, and one secret
level might be Barbieland. <g>
--Nice twist :)...I often played Barbie vs Star Wars. Barbie would always have to fight Leia for Luke only to find out later that they were related.
What was the question!? <bwg>
--Umm...I forget, but I got a good answer :)
Attachment parenting isn't anti-video game. Chic-and-radical is
pro-appearances.
Sandra
Yup.
Ticia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
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[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Taunya Lemon
I couldn't get to the article. I'll keep trying. I believe that we have so many parents trying to control every aspect of their children. I've always found that the children either rebel and go the extreme opposite or worse grow up unable to think for themselves. I've always valued my children's opinion and because of this my 13 year old daughter keeps me as her biggest confidant. Her friends even have her or come themselves to me for advice. Something I know I would never have done. My children are very skeptical of anything that the majority is "down for". For example, my some was previously at a private school. His teacher accused him of something he did not do. Being raised to feel free to own his feelings and opinions, he asked the teacher to call me that he needed to speak to me. He did not lie and play sick or argue and be disrespectful because he knows that's not acceptable. He silently sat and refused to speak or work until I was called. Unfortunately, I never was. Can you imagine how strong he had to be in his convictions. That was the last day at that school. He was also paddled that day and still refused to discuss the situation or work until I was called. The incident happened at 9:30 and I picked my 9 yo @ 3:30.
At a time when young people are we/out convictions and afraid to take a stand against the mainstream and especially feeling that their parents are their biggest advocate I am deeply moved. I'm sad that he went through that day but it was one of my proudest moments. A moment only made possible because I raised them that their feelings are valued even if not agreed with and they are free to express them in appropriate and respectful ways.
At a time when young people are we/out convictions and afraid to take a stand against the mainstream and especially feeling that their parents are their biggest advocate I am deeply moved. I'm sad that he went through that day but it was one of my proudest moments. A moment only made possible because I raised them that their feelings are valued even if not agreed with and they are free to express them in appropriate and respectful ways.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ticia
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] What do you think?
But that article is not in favor of people controlling it. The author is
saying that kids Do need to fantasize about violence, and it doesn't hurt them to
play it out.
--Yes this is what I *got* too.
How old are their kids!?
--Mostly toddlers/babies...so at this point it *is* their own "parental fantasy" of how they will play out their childs' childhood. Wow that sounds sad and it is, but that is the feeling I get a lot of time with their conversations.
I'm guessing you came to this group because it's listed on my main
unschooling page, and maybe you found this
(http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hollow/1093/vidgames_gerardjones.html) because it's on Kathy Ward's site and was linked
form mine, probably.
--Yep I think that is how I arrived :).
Kathy Ward, Dan Vilter and I did a workshop on video games, and she had just
before that come across this article.
I think this group is pretty full of attachment parenting families too.
It surprised me when I was in La Leche League and as people's kids got older
(five, six) some of the parents were controlling in ways that seemed disjoint
to me. The mother of a boy Kirby's age was adamantly opposed to his having
any character-shirts or (HEAVEN FORBID) bedsheets or blankets. She was going
to pay very much extra to get artsy-printed sheets from some expensive
buy-at-home thing because he had wanted Toy Story or whatever its equivalent was in
those days sheets, and she would NOT have him influenced by Disney even when he
was asleep. Yet she was fine giving him a pocket knife.
--This is so true amongst some of the parents in our own circles. Although it isn't a pocket knife in our circle it is a sword.
I'm more afraid of a five year old with a knife than I am of Barbie
pillowcases.
--Although you didn't factor in the smothering issue with the Barbie pillowcases {{{shiver}}}...lol [insert evil barbie lipped smile].
They're talking about what "levels" it will have, and one secret
level might be Barbieland. <g>
--Nice twist :)...I often played Barbie vs Star Wars. Barbie would always have to fight Leia for Luke only to find out later that they were related.
What was the question!? <bwg>
--Umm...I forget, but I got a good answer :)
Attachment parenting isn't anti-video game. Chic-and-radical is
pro-appearances.
Sandra
Yup.
Ticia
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
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[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I couldn't get to the article. I'll keep trying.I think the address wrapped. You have to add the last bit in manually.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/04 7:35:49 AM, tlemon1@... writes:
<< I couldn't get to the article. I'll keep trying. >>
There's a link to it here:
http://sandradodd.com/games/page
<< I couldn't get to the article. I'll keep trying. >>
There's a link to it here:
http://sandradodd.com/games/page
rachel_foodie
> Attachment parenting isn't anti-video game. Chic-and-radical isSandra,
> pro-appearances.
>
> Sandra
I LOVE your quote above. I am in homeschool group here in Atlanta.
The sole purpose of our groups is that we are homeschoolers, nothing
else. However, everyone is pretty well represented unschoolers (not
as many) school at homers, eclectic, republicans, democrats,
catholics, protestants, new agers, atheists etc. It's cool. I love
it. Interestingly, thought, all of these people who are seemingly so
different except that they homeschool are also attachment parenting
types. We all had slinged babies, co-sleeping longterm nurslings.
Except then there comes this point where there were attachment
parents who were very into the whole granola-wholewheat-anti war toys-
tv-videogames-whatever.
I was a new waver in the 80s. Purple hair, leather mini skirts,
listening to The Smiths and New Order etc...I hung out mostly with
the non conformist types. But I also wore crew neck sweaters, kilts
and my beloved Bass weejuns (still my signature shoe). I couldn't
stick to just one thing, or one group. What's funny is that I still
march to the beat of a different drummer and it seems upsetting to
people. For example since I
nursed my 2 older kids til they were 5 (and the 4 year old is still
going)
that I shouldn't let them have toy guns or play video games, or eat
junk food; and other "mainstream types" who see how normal my kids
may seem are equally as flipped out when they find out how long they
were all nursed. Or that
they shouldn't eat marshmallow fluff (I had an attachnment friend
chew me out once for Fluff. I thought it was funny.) Later all the
moms went out to dinner (homeschooling moms) and everyone was talking
about this diet and that, what natural foods to eat (and Hey, Whole
Foods is my favorite store, because I am a Foodie, but I love Burger
King too) and they asked me, and I said I had been there done that,
and that life is too short to be constantly freaking out about the
food I eat. They were horrified. All desperate to keep up with each
others attempts at whole-food healthiness. An appearances
thing...totally!
The thing is if one is really a non conformist, then conforming to
the non-conforming groups still makes you a conformist. Someone who
really thinks for themselves is always going to be a pariah in any if
there groups because they will never exactly fit.
I remember walking with my Mom once, (at 16 or 17) and seeing this
girl who was wearing some cool outfit. Her outfit told you what group
she was in...a very definite style. I said, "Mom, I wish I had a
style. I feel like I don't have something that says this is me." She
told me that I was lucky. That I had this amazing ability to blend
into whatever was interesting to me. That it made me more open
minded and able to relate to all different types (even though I hold
personal beliefs very strongly). That my "not having a style" made it
easier for others to approach me and feel comfotable and not box me
in.
That conversation has stuck with me. Looking back, she was right on
the money. So, it may be confusing when either my public school/
LLL/attachment/homeschooling friends come over and find that I don't
use homeopathy (like they may think) but I try to buy dye-free
benadryl or that though I do have orgainic milk there are oreos and
spongebob mac and cheese in the pantry (god forbid) <g>
Anyway, I know you know what I mean. It's nice that someone else
has exposed the radicl chic set.
Rachel
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/15/04 1:05:23 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< I think the address wrapped. You have to add the last bit in manually. >>
And delete spaces.
Or just go to my page and click a link. Tadaa! <bwg>
Sandra
<< I think the address wrapped. You have to add the last bit in manually. >>
And delete spaces.
Or just go to my page and click a link. Tadaa! <bwg>
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/18/04 2:16:34 PM, rachel_foodie@... writes:
<< all of these people who are seemingly so
different except that they homeschool are also attachment parenting
types. We all had slinged babies, co-sleeping longterm nurslings.
Except then there comes this point where there were attachment
parents who were very into the whole granola-wholewheat-anti war toys-
tv-videogames-whatever. >>
I saw our LLL league babysitting co-op part ways when the kids were four and
so, too, and some continued on toward the coolest school option (cool that
shows, I mean, so it was the public schools' "Family School" program, or
Montessori), and the coolest sport-of-the-season, and so forth.
Then some of the families seemed more focussed on the kids themselves than
how photographable their whole family melieu was looking at any given moment.
I could be wrong, and I could just be justifying my own choices (another
time-honored natural human trait <g>), but it seemed to me that once the kids wer
en't young enough to pick up and pose with, the parents lost interest in them
as accessories, and public school was good enough for them, and then the
parents started bemoaning how the kids were more interested in their friends than
being home.
Hmmm... Just thought of this: I wonder whether part of my personal
experience could have involved having Kirby and Marty in the later 80's when having
babies was itself chic and popular.
Perhaps a batch of people who made their choices by what seemed most
cutting-edge in magazines passed through with me.
Anyway, sometimes it was embarrassing.
And they were VERY against character shirts and video games and plastic toys
for the most part, that batch of folks.
And if ANYONE is honest, they'll admit carob is a really nasty trick to play
on anyone who likes chocolate. But in the photographs it LOOKS chocolatish,
and you get *ever* so many points for sugar-free substitutions. To hell with
whether the kids will eat it. Everyone, quick, *SMILE!*
Sandra
<< all of these people who are seemingly so
different except that they homeschool are also attachment parenting
types. We all had slinged babies, co-sleeping longterm nurslings.
Except then there comes this point where there were attachment
parents who were very into the whole granola-wholewheat-anti war toys-
tv-videogames-whatever. >>
I saw our LLL league babysitting co-op part ways when the kids were four and
so, too, and some continued on toward the coolest school option (cool that
shows, I mean, so it was the public schools' "Family School" program, or
Montessori), and the coolest sport-of-the-season, and so forth.
Then some of the families seemed more focussed on the kids themselves than
how photographable their whole family melieu was looking at any given moment.
I could be wrong, and I could just be justifying my own choices (another
time-honored natural human trait <g>), but it seemed to me that once the kids wer
en't young enough to pick up and pose with, the parents lost interest in them
as accessories, and public school was good enough for them, and then the
parents started bemoaning how the kids were more interested in their friends than
being home.
Hmmm... Just thought of this: I wonder whether part of my personal
experience could have involved having Kirby and Marty in the later 80's when having
babies was itself chic and popular.
Perhaps a batch of people who made their choices by what seemed most
cutting-edge in magazines passed through with me.
Anyway, sometimes it was embarrassing.
And they were VERY against character shirts and video games and plastic toys
for the most part, that batch of folks.
And if ANYONE is honest, they'll admit carob is a really nasty trick to play
on anyone who likes chocolate. But in the photographs it LOOKS chocolatish,
and you get *ever* so many points for sugar-free substitutions. To hell with
whether the kids will eat it. Everyone, quick, *SMILE!*
Sandra
nellebelle
>>>>And if ANYONE is honest, they'll admit carob is a really nasty trick to playon anyone who likes chocolate.>>>>
I love both carob and chocolate, but there is NO WAY that the two are interchangeable!
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**So, it may be confusing when either my public school/
LLL/attachment/homeschooling friends come over and find that ...
<snip> though I do have orgainic milk there are oreos and
spongebob mac and cheese in the pantry (god forbid) <g>**
The cutting edge healthy food people that I hang with are telling me
that saturated fat is good for you (!) but that it's highly preferable
that the cheese come from *grass-fed* cows. Organic grass, naturally.
Unless one is totally anti-dairy and thinks that dairy foods are a
terrible source of calcium and not fit for human consumption. Man this
stuff gets confusing!
I think it would be interesting to track people's "food rules" over time
and over a wide geographic area -- I think we'd see some undulating
blobby waves. <g> And the rules seem to be wiggling and waving faster
and faster.
Betsy
LLL/attachment/homeschooling friends come over and find that ...
<snip> though I do have orgainic milk there are oreos and
spongebob mac and cheese in the pantry (god forbid) <g>**
The cutting edge healthy food people that I hang with are telling me
that saturated fat is good for you (!) but that it's highly preferable
that the cheese come from *grass-fed* cows. Organic grass, naturally.
Unless one is totally anti-dairy and thinks that dairy foods are a
terrible source of calcium and not fit for human consumption. Man this
stuff gets confusing!
I think it would be interesting to track people's "food rules" over time
and over a wide geographic area -- I think we'd see some undulating
blobby waves. <g> And the rules seem to be wiggling and waving faster
and faster.
Betsy