travel during flu season
badolbilz
Hi everyone. I hope your holidays are going well. I have a question
for all of you. Dh and I are planning to go to Florida for the first
two weeks of January (we're in NY). My mom called me tonight almost
hysterical because she saw on the news that another little girl, age 4,
died from the flu. She said we really shouldn't go on vacation because
none of us, especially the girls (ages 7, 5, 3, and 1) have had flu
shots. Instinctively, I feel we should stay home, for that and
finances, but dh desperately needs a vacation due to mental health
reasons. What would all of you suggest? Those of you in Florida, what
are your flu stats? I expect we'll go, but I am really worried about it.
Thanks for your advice, Heidi
for all of you. Dh and I are planning to go to Florida for the first
two weeks of January (we're in NY). My mom called me tonight almost
hysterical because she saw on the news that another little girl, age 4,
died from the flu. She said we really shouldn't go on vacation because
none of us, especially the girls (ages 7, 5, 3, and 1) have had flu
shots. Instinctively, I feel we should stay home, for that and
finances, but dh desperately needs a vacation due to mental health
reasons. What would all of you suggest? Those of you in Florida, what
are your flu stats? I expect we'll go, but I am really worried about it.
Thanks for your advice, Heidi
sonjawolf1
hello Heidi florida here. this flu is nationwide. you have just as
much a chance catching it where you are! its widespread everywhere.
so please dont feel that just because you may come to florida your
chances are higher because there not. if your immune systems are
built up strong your chances of not getting it are definitely much
higher wherever your at. there are MANY who get the flu right after
taking it. (do you take health products) our family is 100%
holistic/alternative health. I know there are others on this group
alike also. if you need any advice ways to build your immune system
please ask us. take care!! BTW its always a good idea to follow your
intincts anyway. : ) peace, Sonja
PS. BEWARE of the flumist..it carries 3 live strains of the flu!!
if your considering it PLEASE reconsider. (hospital employees are
being told if they are going to take the flumist it is mandatory
that they stay home for 3 weeks before returning to work!)
much a chance catching it where you are! its widespread everywhere.
so please dont feel that just because you may come to florida your
chances are higher because there not. if your immune systems are
built up strong your chances of not getting it are definitely much
higher wherever your at. there are MANY who get the flu right after
taking it. (do you take health products) our family is 100%
holistic/alternative health. I know there are others on this group
alike also. if you need any advice ways to build your immune system
please ask us. take care!! BTW its always a good idea to follow your
intincts anyway. : ) peace, Sonja
PS. BEWARE of the flumist..it carries 3 live strains of the flu!!
if your considering it PLEASE reconsider. (hospital employees are
being told if they are going to take the flumist it is mandatory
that they stay home for 3 weeks before returning to work!)
--- In [email protected], badolbilz <ynxn96@f...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi everyone. I hope your holidays are going well. I have a
question
> for all of you. Dh and I are planning to go to Florida for the
first
> two weeks of January (we're in NY). My mom called me tonight
almost
> hysterical because she saw on the news that another little girl,
age 4,
> died from the flu. She said we really shouldn't go on vacation
because
> none of us, especially the girls (ages 7, 5, 3, and 1) have had
flu
> shots. Instinctively, I feel we should stay home, for that and
> finances, but dh desperately needs a vacation due to mental health
> reasons. What would all of you suggest? Those of you in Florida,
what
> are your flu stats? I expect we'll go, but I am really worried
about it.
>
> Thanks for your advice, Heidi
Nancy Wooton
on 12/21/03 4:03 PM, badolbilz at ynxn96@... wrote:
the air circulates throughout the cabin. (It was far worse when smoking was
allowed.) I know I wouldn't fly if I could avoid it.
Nancy
> Dh and I are planning to go to Florida for the firstI'm with your mom. I used to get really sick after any plane trip, because
> two weeks of January (we're in NY). My mom called me tonight almost
> hysterical because she saw on the news that another little girl, age 4,
> died from the flu. She said we really shouldn't go on vacation because
> none of us, especially the girls (ages 7, 5, 3, and 1) have had flu
> shots.
the air circulates throughout the cabin. (It was far worse when smoking was
allowed.) I know I wouldn't fly if I could avoid it.
Nancy
sonjawolf1
Heidi..I definitely agree w/Nancy! I didnt consider the fact you may
be flying. being in a confined area such as a plane (right now), I
would think twice. Sonja
--- In [email protected], Nancy Wooton
<ikonstitcher@c...> wrote:
be flying. being in a confined area such as a plane (right now), I
would think twice. Sonja
--- In [email protected], Nancy Wooton
<ikonstitcher@c...> wrote:
> on 12/21/03 4:03 PM, badolbilz at ynxn96@f... wrote:almost
>
> > Dh and I are planning to go to Florida for the first
> > two weeks of January (we're in NY). My mom called me tonight
> > hysterical because she saw on the news that another little girl,age 4,
> > died from the flu. She said we really shouldn't go on vacationbecause
> > none of us, especially the girls (ages 7, 5, 3, and 1) have hadflu
> > shots.trip, because
>
> I'm with your mom. I used to get really sick after any plane
> the air circulates throughout the cabin. (It was far worse whensmoking was
> allowed.) I know I wouldn't fly if I could avoid it.
>
> Nancy
Janet Hamlin
We went to Florida last January and are going again this year as well (for
the Disney Marathon on 1/11).
We bring lots of wipes and disinfect our seating area of the plane, drink
lots of water, and pray ;).
A few weeks ago, we actually took our kids twice in one weekend to Chuck E.
Cheese germ pit, and were fortunate to emerge unscathed (not even a
sniffle).
I'd go, be more diligent about hand washing, and HAVE FUN!!
Janet
the Disney Marathon on 1/11).
We bring lots of wipes and disinfect our seating area of the plane, drink
lots of water, and pray ;).
A few weeks ago, we actually took our kids twice in one weekend to Chuck E.
Cheese germ pit, and were fortunate to emerge unscathed (not even a
sniffle).
I'd go, be more diligent about hand washing, and HAVE FUN!!
Janet
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/21/2003 10:10:17 PM Central Standard Time,
blossom_1964@... writes:
hello Heidi florida here. this flu is nationwide. you have just as
much a chance catching it where you are! its widespread everywhere
~~~
I would think you would have more of a chance if you are travelling by public
transport or by airplane. Being in close quarters with others that have the
flu is risky, that's for sure.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
blossom_1964@... writes:
hello Heidi florida here. this flu is nationwide. you have just as
much a chance catching it where you are! its widespread everywhere
~~~
I would think you would have more of a chance if you are travelling by public
transport or by airplane. Being in close quarters with others that have the
flu is risky, that's for sure.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>>PS. BEWARE of the flumist..it carries 3 live strains of the flu!!if your considering it PLEASE reconsider. (hospital employees are
being told if they are going to take the flumist it is mandatory
that they stay home for 3 weeks before returning to work!) <<
I find this little fact rather alarmist. There's a good reason hospital
workers should be careful with Flumist, and it's not because the vaccine is so
dangerous to them. It's dangerous to the very sick people that they care for in
their jobs.
From www.snopes.com:
"But even for the healthy 5- to 49-year-olds, the spray vaccine poses a risk,
if not to them, then to those they come into contact with. In a few
instances, those who receive this live vaccine will as a consequence spread it to
others, so FluMist isn't recommended for people who take care of or live with
either the elderly or those at risk of severe flu complications. The live virus can
be transmitted to others by way of coughing, sneezing, or talking, or via a
fomite, an item touched by someone who has the virus. (Common cold, flu, and
stomach viruses can live on the fingertips for hours, and they can survive on
the surfaces of objects for days.) "
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
badolbilz
Sorry everyone...I forgot to mention we'd definitely be driving to
Florida. I do feel that if we use things like Purell hand sanitizer a
lot and wash our hands we'll be okay. It's just upsetting to hear about
children dying, especially healthy ones who are dead within days. But
we are all healthy and we'll just have to do our best to stay that way.
Getting out of the crowded New York winter rooms would have to help a
little. We really need a little heat and sunshine in our lives. We'll
be staying with dh's parents, which can be stressful, but also means mil
will babysit so we can go to dinner and the beach til midnight. Dh and
I desperately NEED that!
Thank you all for your advice. Happy Holidays. Heidi
tuckervill2@... wrote:
Florida. I do feel that if we use things like Purell hand sanitizer a
lot and wash our hands we'll be okay. It's just upsetting to hear about
children dying, especially healthy ones who are dead within days. But
we are all healthy and we'll just have to do our best to stay that way.
Getting out of the crowded New York winter rooms would have to help a
little. We really need a little heat and sunshine in our lives. We'll
be staying with dh's parents, which can be stressful, but also means mil
will babysit so we can go to dinner and the beach til midnight. Dh and
I desperately NEED that!
Thank you all for your advice. Happy Holidays. Heidi
tuckervill2@... wrote:
>In a message dated 12/21/2003 10:10:17 PM Central Standard Time,
>blossom_1964@... writes:
>hello Heidi florida here. this flu is nationwide. you have just as
>much a chance catching it where you are! its widespread everywhere
>
>~~~
>
>I would think you would have more of a chance if you are travelling by public
>transport or by airplane. Being in close quarters with others that have the
>flu is risky, that's for sure.
>
>Tuck
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
[email protected]
I heard on the news this morning that there had now been cases of the flu in
all states. I don't think limiting travel will necessarily lower your risk of
getting it. My advice would be to go if your finances allow. Practice good
hygiene with lots of handwashing, good nutrition, and staying away from people
who are sick.
Also, it's not too late to get a flu vaccine.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
all states. I don't think limiting travel will necessarily lower your risk of
getting it. My advice would be to go if your finances allow. Practice good
hygiene with lots of handwashing, good nutrition, and staying away from people
who are sick.
Also, it's not too late to get a flu vaccine.
--Jacqueline
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<I'm just really worried about it>>
Why? People die from flu EVERY year. The media has a very sad way of
taking a little blip and turning it into a huge mountain. I take everything
from the media with a grain of salt. It is their job to get you to follow
more media stories. The best way to do that is to keep a crisis going.
Someone in your family is much more likely to die in a car crash going to
the grocery store than to die from the flu. But I bet you still go buy
groceries.
Sorry......didn't mean to rant but the media makes me nuts.
If you are really concerned, take along some of that handwash gel that you
don't need to wash off and just do everybodies hands several times a day.
Julie S.---whose kids rarely get sick and never get any kind of preventive
medications
Why? People die from flu EVERY year. The media has a very sad way of
taking a little blip and turning it into a huge mountain. I take everything
from the media with a grain of salt. It is their job to get you to follow
more media stories. The best way to do that is to keep a crisis going.
Someone in your family is much more likely to die in a car crash going to
the grocery store than to die from the flu. But I bet you still go buy
groceries.
Sorry......didn't mean to rant but the media makes me nuts.
If you are really concerned, take along some of that handwash gel that you
don't need to wash off and just do everybodies hands several times a day.
Julie S.---whose kids rarely get sick and never get any kind of preventive
medications
----- Original Message -----
From: "badolbilz" <ynxn96@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2003 6:03 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] travel during flu season
>
>
> Hi everyone. I hope your holidays are going well. I have a question
> for all of you. Dh and I are planning to go to Florida for the first
> two weeks of January (we're in NY). My mom called me tonight almost
> hysterical because she saw on the news that another little girl, age 4,
> died from the flu. She said we really shouldn't go on vacation because
> none of us, especially the girls (ages 7, 5, 3, and 1) have had flu
> shots. Instinctively, I feel we should stay home, for that and
> finances, but dh desperately needs a vacation due to mental health
> reasons. What would all of you suggest? Those of you in Florida, what
> are your flu stats? I expect we'll go, but I am really worried about it.
>
> Thanks for your advice, Heidi
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/22/03 10:07:25 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ynxn96@... writes:
could not come out without catching something but we were fine, no colds, no
flu. But we went to Maine for a few days a week ago for a wedding and all came
back sick. LOL
Although we are all feeling better now.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ynxn96@... writes:
> Sorry everyone...I forgot to mention we'd definitely be driving toWe went to Florida over Thanksgiving, Universal Studios, you would think we
> Florida. I do feel that if we use things like Purell hand sanitizer a
> lot and wash our hands we'll be okay.
could not come out without catching something but we were fine, no colds, no
flu. But we went to Maine for a few days a week ago for a wedding and all came
back sick. LOL
Although we are all feeling better now.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/22/2003 8:28:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
I find this little fact rather alarmist. There's a good reason hospital
workers should be careful with Flumist, and it's not because the vaccine is
so
dangerous to them. It's dangerous to the very sick people that they care for
in
their jobs.
Last week when I took my child to the Dr., even HE admitted he is leary of
the "Flumist" and would not get it.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
I find this little fact rather alarmist. There's a good reason hospital
workers should be careful with Flumist, and it's not because the vaccine is
so
dangerous to them. It's dangerous to the very sick people that they care for
in
their jobs.
Last week when I took my child to the Dr., even HE admitted he is leary of
the "Flumist" and would not get it.
Amy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sonjawolf1
hello tuck. I agree its out of concern not to infect others. but
what is ALARMING to me is this also means ANYONE taking the flumist,
hospital emplyoee or not, could have a chance of infecting others no
matter where they go out in public or what their occupation is.
children & elderly are everywhere, and you dont have to be in that
age bracket to contract it, anyone is susceptible. anyone out there
could have a lower immune system, age doesnt matter. people already
sick w/whatever go out in public ALL the time and they would be a
real easy target for contracting it. the vague warning their giving
the general public is NOT enough. the same warning the hospital
staffs are being given should be the publics warning also! but as
usual they purposely dont want to alarm the public. hmm..even though
it could save lives. my reason for passing that bit of info on is
because MANY people dont know about it and its EXTREMELY important.
IMO (and others) those considering taking anything w/live strains,
especially like the amount in the flumist, definitely need to know
the REAL facts so their decision can be basd on truth. peace to all
and hoping everyone and their families stay healthy!!!
what is ALARMING to me is this also means ANYONE taking the flumist,
hospital emplyoee or not, could have a chance of infecting others no
matter where they go out in public or what their occupation is.
children & elderly are everywhere, and you dont have to be in that
age bracket to contract it, anyone is susceptible. anyone out there
could have a lower immune system, age doesnt matter. people already
sick w/whatever go out in public ALL the time and they would be a
real easy target for contracting it. the vague warning their giving
the general public is NOT enough. the same warning the hospital
staffs are being given should be the publics warning also! but as
usual they purposely dont want to alarm the public. hmm..even though
it could save lives. my reason for passing that bit of info on is
because MANY people dont know about it and its EXTREMELY important.
IMO (and others) those considering taking anything w/live strains,
especially like the amount in the flumist, definitely need to know
the REAL facts so their decision can be basd on truth. peace to all
and hoping everyone and their families stay healthy!!!
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
> >>PS. BEWARE of the flumist..it carries 3 live strains of the
flu!!
> if your considering it PLEASE reconsider. (hospital employees are
> being told if they are going to take the flumist it is mandatory
> that they stay home for 3 weeks before returning to work!) <<
>
> I find this little fact rather alarmist. There's a good reason
hospital
> workers should be careful with Flumist, and it's not because the
vaccine is so
> dangerous to them. It's dangerous to the very sick people that
they care for in
> their jobs.
>
> From www.snopes.com:
>
> "But even for the healthy 5- to 49-year-olds, the spray vaccine
poses a risk,
> if not to them, then to those they come into contact with. In a
few
> instances, those who receive this live vaccine will as a
consequence spread it to
> others, so FluMist isn't recommended for people who take care of
or live with
> either the elderly or those at risk of severe flu complications.
The live virus can
> be transmitted to others by way of coughing, sneezing, or talking,
or via a
> fomite, an item touched by someone who has the virus. (Common
cold, flu, and
> stomach viruses can live on the fingertips for hours, and they can
survive on
> the surfaces of objects for days.) "
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mozafamily
In my opinion you are just as well off without the vaccine because
most are saying it doesn't contain (vaccinate against) many of the
strains that are causeing the flu now. The best thing you can do for
your family is to keep a close eye on flu like symptoms and if they
do come down with it then call your doc for the medicine that makes
the flu shorter and less severe. So if I were you I would go about
my plans as usual.
Now about the not enforcing a bedtime - WHY??? Your kids do not
need you to help them sleep and you being there probably actually
keeps them from sleeping well. It is not against the unschooling
train of thought to insist that your children be in their rooms by a
certain time each night. We have done this since the beginning with
our son and have never had a problem. We remind him about 7
everynight that it is about time for bed, he knows the routine that
he needs to get his pjs on and clean up whatever he's working on (he
doesn't have to put away stuff he wants to work on the next day but
he can't have toys everywhere) then he picks out a story for me
himself and dad, goes potty, brushes teeth etc. If he is not ready
by 7:30 then no stories and he has to put himself to bed and we do
only hugs and kisses, but ususually he is so we get to read the
stories and then do hugs and kisses. After we leave for the night he
is free to do whatever he wishes as long as he stays in his room, we
explain that this is Mom's and Dad's time to have some quiet time
and get ready for bed ourselves and he should only interupt us if it
is an emergency. We allow the light in his room to stay on because
he likes it that way. Sometimes he reads to himself, sometimes he
does a puzzle, etc. whatever he can understand that this is his
getting to bed time and not to disturb Mom and Dad, sometimes he
goes right to sleep - but it is his choice and usually within an
hour he is fast asleep. Since we have done this as he has grown up
(he's almost 6 now) it was very easy for us. I can see how your dh
could easily be stressed by the situation - I think I would be
also!!! Why not have a family meeting and come to a good agreement
on a bedtime, a time for the children to remain in their rooms and
get ready for sleep in their own way. Perhaps letting them
understand how to put themselves to sleep is a gift you could give
them now, and the gift to your family would be a stronger
relationship between you and your dh. Remember that freedom is no
longer freedom when it infringes on the rights of others. Good luck!
Moza
most are saying it doesn't contain (vaccinate against) many of the
strains that are causeing the flu now. The best thing you can do for
your family is to keep a close eye on flu like symptoms and if they
do come down with it then call your doc for the medicine that makes
the flu shorter and less severe. So if I were you I would go about
my plans as usual.
Now about the not enforcing a bedtime - WHY??? Your kids do not
need you to help them sleep and you being there probably actually
keeps them from sleeping well. It is not against the unschooling
train of thought to insist that your children be in their rooms by a
certain time each night. We have done this since the beginning with
our son and have never had a problem. We remind him about 7
everynight that it is about time for bed, he knows the routine that
he needs to get his pjs on and clean up whatever he's working on (he
doesn't have to put away stuff he wants to work on the next day but
he can't have toys everywhere) then he picks out a story for me
himself and dad, goes potty, brushes teeth etc. If he is not ready
by 7:30 then no stories and he has to put himself to bed and we do
only hugs and kisses, but ususually he is so we get to read the
stories and then do hugs and kisses. After we leave for the night he
is free to do whatever he wishes as long as he stays in his room, we
explain that this is Mom's and Dad's time to have some quiet time
and get ready for bed ourselves and he should only interupt us if it
is an emergency. We allow the light in his room to stay on because
he likes it that way. Sometimes he reads to himself, sometimes he
does a puzzle, etc. whatever he can understand that this is his
getting to bed time and not to disturb Mom and Dad, sometimes he
goes right to sleep - but it is his choice and usually within an
hour he is fast asleep. Since we have done this as he has grown up
(he's almost 6 now) it was very easy for us. I can see how your dh
could easily be stressed by the situation - I think I would be
also!!! Why not have a family meeting and come to a good agreement
on a bedtime, a time for the children to remain in their rooms and
get ready for sleep in their own way. Perhaps letting them
understand how to put themselves to sleep is a gift you could give
them now, and the gift to your family would be a stronger
relationship between you and your dh. Remember that freedom is no
longer freedom when it infringes on the rights of others. Good luck!
Moza
--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
> >>PS. BEWARE of the flumist..it carries 3 live strains of the
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/22/03 11:05:23 PM, mozafamily@... writes:
<< Now about the not enforcing a bedtime - WHY??? Your kids do not
need you to help them sleep and you being there probably actually
keeps them from sleeping well. >>
My kids have always, since they were babies, before we had any inkling we
would be homeschooling, gone to sleep when they were sleepy. They needed my help
when they were nursing, because they nursed to sleep. The needed my help
when I read or sang to them, when they wanted me to. They needed my help to make
them a bed. But they didn't need my help to say "It's time," because every
single night, they went to sleep at some point, when they were sleepy.
<<you being there probably actually
keeps them from sleeping well>>
I'm guessing you're not a family bed advocate. <g>
When babies sleep with their parents, it can be longer before they want to
sleep alone. Mine all want to sleep alone now, but there were times for all of
them when they preferred to sleep with someone else. Because they had
choices, we know they are sleeping alone now from choice, not because they gave up or
because they resent us and want us away from them.
<<It is not against the unschooling
train of thought to insist that your children be in their rooms by a
certain time each night.>>
It might be against the attachment parenting train of thought, and for some
families there's not a difference.
<<If he is not ready
by 7:30 then no stories and he has to put himself to bed and we do
only hugs and kisses>>
That's more punitive than our family would ever have been comfortable with.
That seems plainly "training," and not offering choices in the most open,
positive way.
<<Perhaps letting them
understand how to put themselves to sleep is a gift you could give
them now, and the gift to your family would be a stronger
relationship between you and your dh. >>
My kids don't "put themselves to sleep." Neither do I. I fall asleep happy.
When I was little, going to bed was often an unhappy thing, a
feeling-mom-is-mean thing, a scary thing, and a punitive-feeling thing. I never wanted that
for my children, and they've never had it. Yet they sleep!
All my children put together have had fewer nightmares than I had in any
single year of my childhood from the time I was seven or so.
<<Remember that freedom is no
longer freedom when it infringes on the rights of others.>>
It has never seemed fair to me when parents claim many more freedoms than
their children have. Adult understanding and compassion should be larger by far
than child-understanding and compassion.
Sandra
<< Now about the not enforcing a bedtime - WHY??? Your kids do not
need you to help them sleep and you being there probably actually
keeps them from sleeping well. >>
My kids have always, since they were babies, before we had any inkling we
would be homeschooling, gone to sleep when they were sleepy. They needed my help
when they were nursing, because they nursed to sleep. The needed my help
when I read or sang to them, when they wanted me to. They needed my help to make
them a bed. But they didn't need my help to say "It's time," because every
single night, they went to sleep at some point, when they were sleepy.
<<you being there probably actually
keeps them from sleeping well>>
I'm guessing you're not a family bed advocate. <g>
When babies sleep with their parents, it can be longer before they want to
sleep alone. Mine all want to sleep alone now, but there were times for all of
them when they preferred to sleep with someone else. Because they had
choices, we know they are sleeping alone now from choice, not because they gave up or
because they resent us and want us away from them.
<<It is not against the unschooling
train of thought to insist that your children be in their rooms by a
certain time each night.>>
It might be against the attachment parenting train of thought, and for some
families there's not a difference.
<<If he is not ready
by 7:30 then no stories and he has to put himself to bed and we do
only hugs and kisses>>
That's more punitive than our family would ever have been comfortable with.
That seems plainly "training," and not offering choices in the most open,
positive way.
<<Perhaps letting them
understand how to put themselves to sleep is a gift you could give
them now, and the gift to your family would be a stronger
relationship between you and your dh. >>
My kids don't "put themselves to sleep." Neither do I. I fall asleep happy.
When I was little, going to bed was often an unhappy thing, a
feeling-mom-is-mean thing, a scary thing, and a punitive-feeling thing. I never wanted that
for my children, and they've never had it. Yet they sleep!
All my children put together have had fewer nightmares than I had in any
single year of my childhood from the time I was seven or so.
<<Remember that freedom is no
longer freedom when it infringes on the rights of others.>>
It has never seemed fair to me when parents claim many more freedoms than
their children have. Adult understanding and compassion should be larger by far
than child-understanding and compassion.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/23/03 11:14:10 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
My mom, as I said earlier, was a "because I said so person". Bedtime was one
of those. 8:30 on a school night. The LR was just below my brother's and my
bedrooms. Our rooms were the only rooms upstairs and they were each on one
side of the stair landing. If my brother and I were not sleepy we would try to
quietly talk across. We were allowed to leave the doors open. But sometimes
my mom would hear us and you could hear her feet pounding on the stairs and
she would come up to spank us for talking.
I also remember being home when she died. My dh, I and our 2 boys slept in
my old bedroom, although it now had a bigger bed. My brother and his family
slept in his old room. Every time I heard my brother climbing those stairs my
heart would race and a feeling of panic would come over me. Just that sound
brought back all those old memories of my mother.
I never want anything like that attached to me, as a mother.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> When I was little, going to bed was often an unhappy thing, aOh man did that bring back a memory....wow.
> feeling-mom-is-mean thing, a scary thing, and a punitive-feeling thing. I
> never wanted that
> for my children, and they've never had it. Yet they sleep!
>
>
My mom, as I said earlier, was a "because I said so person". Bedtime was one
of those. 8:30 on a school night. The LR was just below my brother's and my
bedrooms. Our rooms were the only rooms upstairs and they were each on one
side of the stair landing. If my brother and I were not sleepy we would try to
quietly talk across. We were allowed to leave the doors open. But sometimes
my mom would hear us and you could hear her feet pounding on the stairs and
she would come up to spank us for talking.
I also remember being home when she died. My dh, I and our 2 boys slept in
my old bedroom, although it now had a bigger bed. My brother and his family
slept in his old room. Every time I heard my brother climbing those stairs my
heart would race and a feeling of panic would come over me. Just that sound
brought back all those old memories of my mother.
I never want anything like that attached to me, as a mother.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
badolbilz
Sandra, YES, YES, YES. To all of it. We used to have an enforced
bedtime, which took about 1, 1/2 hours of fussing, crying, etc. and I
always ended up in everyones bed at some point during the night anyway.
In the last six months of us all sleeping together, we are all SO rested
and get along so much better. I know the girls trust me more and we're
all healthier for getting the rest we need. Plus it's just darn fun to
cuddle up with them now and talk about whatever. Sometimes, I feel like
I did at a sleepover with my friends when I was a kid. We keep saying
we'd better go to sleep and then one of us will come up with something
else to talk about. We laugh. We hold hands. I know they won't be
sleeping with me, but I hope we always share secrets, feelings, and
laughter long into the night as we get older together. Getting to be
with my girls and being their friend is breathtaking. Dh and I will
work things out somehow because we love each other, but even he
understands that at this point in the children's lives, their needs come
first. I'm a firm believer that everything is possible if you think
long enough and are willing to try hard enough. And last week, Elysia
(5 yrs) told me that she can't remember the last time she's had a
nightmare.
Heidi
SandraDodd@... wrote:
bedtime, which took about 1, 1/2 hours of fussing, crying, etc. and I
always ended up in everyones bed at some point during the night anyway.
In the last six months of us all sleeping together, we are all SO rested
and get along so much better. I know the girls trust me more and we're
all healthier for getting the rest we need. Plus it's just darn fun to
cuddle up with them now and talk about whatever. Sometimes, I feel like
I did at a sleepover with my friends when I was a kid. We keep saying
we'd better go to sleep and then one of us will come up with something
else to talk about. We laugh. We hold hands. I know they won't be
sleeping with me, but I hope we always share secrets, feelings, and
laughter long into the night as we get older together. Getting to be
with my girls and being their friend is breathtaking. Dh and I will
work things out somehow because we love each other, but even he
understands that at this point in the children's lives, their needs come
first. I'm a firm believer that everything is possible if you think
long enough and are willing to try hard enough. And last week, Elysia
(5 yrs) told me that she can't remember the last time she's had a
nightmare.
Heidi
SandraDodd@... wrote:
>In a message dated 12/22/03 11:05:23 PM, mozafamily@... writes:
>
><< Now about the not enforcing a bedtime - WHY??? Your kids do not
>
>need you to help them sleep and you being there probably actually
>
>keeps them from sleeping well. >>
>
>My kids have always, since they were babies, before we had any inkling we
>would be homeschooling, gone to sleep when they were sleepy. They needed my help
>when they were nursing, because they nursed to sleep. The needed my help
>when I read or sang to them, when they wanted me to. They needed my help to make
>them a bed. But they didn't need my help to say "It's time," because every
>single night, they went to sleep at some point, when they were sleepy.
>
><<you being there probably actually
>
>keeps them from sleeping well>>
>
>I'm guessing you're not a family bed advocate. <g>
>
>When babies sleep with their parents, it can be longer before they want to
>sleep alone. Mine all want to sleep alone now, but there were times for all of
>them when they preferred to sleep with someone else. Because they had
>choices, we know they are sleeping alone now from choice, not because they gave up or
>because they resent us and want us away from them.
>
><<It is not against the unschooling
>
>train of thought to insist that your children be in their rooms by a
>
>certain time each night.>>
>
>It might be against the attachment parenting train of thought, and for some
>families there's not a difference.
>
><<If he is not ready
>
>by 7:30 then no stories and he has to put himself to bed and we do
>
>only hugs and kisses>>
>
>That's more punitive than our family would ever have been comfortable with.
>That seems plainly "training," and not offering choices in the most open,
>positive way.
>
><<Perhaps letting them
>
>understand how to put themselves to sleep is a gift you could give
>
>them now, and the gift to your family would be a stronger
>
>relationship between you and your dh. >>
>
>My kids don't "put themselves to sleep." Neither do I. I fall asleep happy.
>
>
>When I was little, going to bed was often an unhappy thing, a
>feeling-mom-is-mean thing, a scary thing, and a punitive-feeling thing. I never wanted that
>for my children, and they've never had it. Yet they sleep!
>
>All my children put together have had fewer nightmares than I had in any
>single year of my childhood from the time I was seven or so.
>
><<Remember that freedom is no
>
>longer freedom when it infringes on the rights of others.>>
>
>It has never seemed fair to me when parents claim many more freedoms than
>their children have. Adult understanding and compassion should be larger by far
>than child-understanding and compassion.
>
>Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
mozafamily
--- In [email protected], badolbilz <ynxn96@f...> wrote:
---------------------------------------------------
Okey - let me just set the record straight here - we don't have
bedtimes but we have an approximate time that after which ds is
expected to stay in his room (or thereabouts he knows he can get a
drink or go to the bathroom, etc) so we can all have some getting
ready for bed time. I can understand the family bed (although we
didn't practice it) up until about 2 years of age and then it's just
not needed for most children, if any of you ever slept with my son
past the age of 2 then you would likely get kicked out of bed by all
his kicking about, elbow to the nose, etc. definately a lively
sleeper and always has been. I would get no sleep at all!
Understandably if my ds is scared of something or something is
really bothering him he will come to me and tell me about it, (and
if it is the case that he needs to fall asleep in our arms then so
be it, although that is rare and usually only when sick or something
abnormal happening) As far as punishment the only kind of punishing
we allow with our son is that of the natural consequences kind. If
you have a child under the age of 1 then no one can expect much
sleeping time, but after that you get a routine going so that
everyones life can fit together, when the child gets up at a routine
time then they are usually sleepy at a routine time. If the father
is in need of more time with the mother then that is something to be
addressed and not shoved aside as well, I understand unreasonable
requests on time but having the children develop their own sleeping
routine that fits into the family schedule is not an unreasonable
request. Most of the time my dh's day starts between 5-5:30and my ds
likes to be up to tell and hug him goodbye so you can seen that
starting our bedtime at 7ish is what is needed here and works for
everyone. If my ds were to be up in the middle of the night which is
very rarely the case (usually with a sickness as I noted earlier)
then usually a simple reminder that the other people in the house
are sleeping and need some quiet time is enough, or perhaps if there
was something that you needed to do the next day you could remind
the child of the need to be rested and that mom/dad need rest also
or they could oversleep and miss the important event, we use the
truth as reasoning here - we don't use "because I said so" to
explain things. As far at tears and fits we have not seen any,
sometimes my ds asks to leave the door open although nowdays he
likes to have the door closed, but it's his decision, he's not being
forced to go to bed, only that this is the time for him to be in his
room getting prepared to sleep, sometimes he plays with toys for
awhile, puts together a puzzle, sometimes he goes right to sleep. He
definately doesn't see bedtime as a punishment! We do hugs and
kisses everynight and stories on the nights that he wants to - again
I see nothing punitive there??? Now obviously what works for one
family doesn't work for every family I was only making a suggestion
to try and help out the person who origionally made the post.
> Sandra, YES, YES, YES. To all of it. We used to have anenforced
---------------------------------------------------
Okey - let me just set the record straight here - we don't have
bedtimes but we have an approximate time that after which ds is
expected to stay in his room (or thereabouts he knows he can get a
drink or go to the bathroom, etc) so we can all have some getting
ready for bed time. I can understand the family bed (although we
didn't practice it) up until about 2 years of age and then it's just
not needed for most children, if any of you ever slept with my son
past the age of 2 then you would likely get kicked out of bed by all
his kicking about, elbow to the nose, etc. definately a lively
sleeper and always has been. I would get no sleep at all!
Understandably if my ds is scared of something or something is
really bothering him he will come to me and tell me about it, (and
if it is the case that he needs to fall asleep in our arms then so
be it, although that is rare and usually only when sick or something
abnormal happening) As far as punishment the only kind of punishing
we allow with our son is that of the natural consequences kind. If
you have a child under the age of 1 then no one can expect much
sleeping time, but after that you get a routine going so that
everyones life can fit together, when the child gets up at a routine
time then they are usually sleepy at a routine time. If the father
is in need of more time with the mother then that is something to be
addressed and not shoved aside as well, I understand unreasonable
requests on time but having the children develop their own sleeping
routine that fits into the family schedule is not an unreasonable
request. Most of the time my dh's day starts between 5-5:30and my ds
likes to be up to tell and hug him goodbye so you can seen that
starting our bedtime at 7ish is what is needed here and works for
everyone. If my ds were to be up in the middle of the night which is
very rarely the case (usually with a sickness as I noted earlier)
then usually a simple reminder that the other people in the house
are sleeping and need some quiet time is enough, or perhaps if there
was something that you needed to do the next day you could remind
the child of the need to be rested and that mom/dad need rest also
or they could oversleep and miss the important event, we use the
truth as reasoning here - we don't use "because I said so" to
explain things. As far at tears and fits we have not seen any,
sometimes my ds asks to leave the door open although nowdays he
likes to have the door closed, but it's his decision, he's not being
forced to go to bed, only that this is the time for him to be in his
room getting prepared to sleep, sometimes he plays with toys for
awhile, puts together a puzzle, sometimes he goes right to sleep. He
definately doesn't see bedtime as a punishment! We do hugs and
kisses everynight and stories on the nights that he wants to - again
I see nothing punitive there??? Now obviously what works for one
family doesn't work for every family I was only making a suggestion
to try and help out the person who origionally made the post.
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/24/2003 1:08:00 AM Central Standard Time,
mozafamily@... writes:
I can understand the family bed (although we
didn't practice it) up until about 2 years of age and then it's just
not needed for most children,
~~~
You don't know most children.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mozafamily@... writes:
I can understand the family bed (although we
didn't practice it) up until about 2 years of age and then it's just
not needed for most children,
~~~
You don't know most children.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
Needed? So what if it's not needed, what if it's wanted.
Personally I totally disagree with that statement, I think most children
would do much better if they shared sleep with their parents for much
longer than two years, until they self weaned, so to speak, from the
family bed.
Joylyn
tuckervill2@... wrote:
Personally I totally disagree with that statement, I think most children
would do much better if they shared sleep with their parents for much
longer than two years, until they self weaned, so to speak, from the
family bed.
Joylyn
tuckervill2@... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/24/2003 1:08:00 AM Central Standard Time,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> mozafamily@... writes:
> I can understand the family bed (although we
> didn't practice it) up until about 2 years of age and then it's just
> not needed for most children,
>
> ~~~
>
> You don't know most children.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 12/24/03 2:07:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mozafamily@... writes:
he didn't get ready for bed then there was no reading.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mozafamily@... writes:
> We do hugs andI commented about punishment because in the first post you had said that if
> kisses everynight and stories on the nights that he wants to - again
> I see nothing punitive there???
he didn't get ready for bed then there was no reading.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/24/03 2:07:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mozafamily@... writes:
the age of 2.
For my children they will decide when they are ready to sleep on their own or
with each other etc.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mozafamily@... writes:
> I can understand the family bed (although weI disagree. I you have a family bed then it is needed for most children at
> didn't practice it) up until about 2 years of age and then it's just
> not needed for most children,
the age of 2.
For my children they will decide when they are ready to sleep on their own or
with each other etc.
Pam G
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-- "mozafamily" <mozafamily@...> wrote:
What if he wants to stay up until 9:30 and then have a story?
You're punishing him by not reading him a story if he doesn't go to his room early enough to suit you. The "choice" you say you're giving him is a false one - he can choose to do what you want or be punished.
If Rain asks me to read to her and it's really late and I'm tired, sometimes I'll tell her not now, in the morning, and usually that's okay. Otherwise we negotiate - once it worked out that her reading to me instead of me reading to her was okay, too, and so she read me the first chapter of Artemis Fowl and got me hooked :)
But see, it's not her doing what I tell her to do, it's both of us working together to find a way of doing things that works for both of us.
And she'll be 11 next month, and sometimes we still have a family bed. There are ways to mitigate the kick-factor - sticking two large dogs on top of her actually has done wonders for her blanket-pulling tendencies, but each of us having our own blankets worked too.
Dar
>>> We do hugs andkisses every night and stories on the nights that he wants to - again I see nothing punitive there??? <<<
What if he wants to stay up until 9:30 and then have a story?
You're punishing him by not reading him a story if he doesn't go to his room early enough to suit you. The "choice" you say you're giving him is a false one - he can choose to do what you want or be punished.
If Rain asks me to read to her and it's really late and I'm tired, sometimes I'll tell her not now, in the morning, and usually that's okay. Otherwise we negotiate - once it worked out that her reading to me instead of me reading to her was okay, too, and so she read me the first chapter of Artemis Fowl and got me hooked :)
But see, it's not her doing what I tell her to do, it's both of us working together to find a way of doing things that works for both of us.
And she'll be 11 next month, and sometimes we still have a family bed. There are ways to mitigate the kick-factor - sticking two large dogs on top of her actually has done wonders for her blanket-pulling tendencies, but each of us having our own blankets worked too.
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/24/03 12:08:06 AM, mozafamily@... writes:
<< I can understand the family bed (although we
didn't practice it) up until about 2 years of age and then it's just
not needed for most children >>
Which child will be helped by such a statement about "most children"?
It doesn't matter how many other children are hungry when my child is hungry.
It doesn't matter how many other children can read when my child isn't ready
to read.
It doesn't matter how many other children someone would like to think don't
need to be with their mom at the moment when my child DOES need to be with me.
This isn't criticism of the quiet-time recommended, but just of that one
statement, and the possible thoughts behind it.
I think it can be very difficult for a parent to relax about timeframes for
learning to read or to do things independently or when children can figure out
how to wake up on their own for work if the parents are pretty sure they know
when a child is too old to need to be with his parents. And two years old
isn't the age kids can run, or are potty trained, or can speak clearly, or know
their phone numbers. But a few might. And some might not even be walking or
talking. And for any one of them, "most" can't help but could be used to hurt.
Sandra
<< I can understand the family bed (although we
didn't practice it) up until about 2 years of age and then it's just
not needed for most children >>
Which child will be helped by such a statement about "most children"?
It doesn't matter how many other children are hungry when my child is hungry.
It doesn't matter how many other children can read when my child isn't ready
to read.
It doesn't matter how many other children someone would like to think don't
need to be with their mom at the moment when my child DOES need to be with me.
This isn't criticism of the quiet-time recommended, but just of that one
statement, and the possible thoughts behind it.
I think it can be very difficult for a parent to relax about timeframes for
learning to read or to do things independently or when children can figure out
how to wake up on their own for work if the parents are pretty sure they know
when a child is too old to need to be with his parents. And two years old
isn't the age kids can run, or are potty trained, or can speak clearly, or know
their phone numbers. But a few might. And some might not even be walking or
talking. And for any one of them, "most" can't help but could be used to hurt.
Sandra
Barbara Chase
>I think it can be very difficult for a parent to relax about timeframes forOh, this is so profound! It's like we really need to dig deeply into
>learning to read or to do things independently or when children can figure out
>how to wake up on their own for work if the parents are pretty sure they know
>when a child is too old to need to be with his parents.
what's going on underneath our actions/thoughts/beliefs so we can clearly
see and relax into the beauty of it all. On the surface, we may think we
are helping... but really we are just getting in the way.
I think it can also be very difficult for the child to figure out their own
timing and readiness when they are being told, even if unconsciously, that
they are or are not ready for something.
I remember once when my dd was just learning to walk and we were visiting
my brother. My dd decided to stand up, walk a little bit, and then take
her first step downward (about 2 inches) onto the outside porch. She
walked over to the house to hold on to the edge, and started the downward
motion. My SIL saw her and called out "be careful" in a loving way. My dd
immediately sat down, and didn't walk for the rest of our 2 day visit.
Here my SIL thought she was being helpful... expressing her concern for my
dd. Her tone wasn't negative, or worried, but very matter of fact and
loving. But, my in that moment my dd lost her own internal confidence that
she was ready to do this new move.
It was much easier for me to see things like this with my dd when she was
really little. Now I find it much trickier. For example, I just caught
myself this morning making an assumption. She wanted to play a computer
doll creating program that she hasn't played in several months. This time
she wasn't willing to do many of the things she did totally on her own the
last time she played, all of them related to reading and typing in doll
names. My first internal response was "of course you can do this... you
did it several months ago", but then I caught myself and realized that for
whatever reason she wasn't ready to handle it today. But what was really
helpful was for me to realize that the underlying reason I was resistant in
the first place is because she was asking for my help at a time that wasn't
good for me... it was much "easier" to just say - oh, you can do it. But
in the long run, this isn't easy at all.
Oh, I'm really rambling now. Thanks for listening. I've been reading on
this list for several months now, and I think little things are starting to
sink in. Thanks to all the old-time unschoolers for your willingness to
share and help us newcomers dig deeper.
Happy Holidays
--bc--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nellebelle
>>>>I can understand the family bed (although wedidn't practice it)>>>>>
How can one understand something one hasn't practiced? Perhaps it is more accurate to say that one has heard about the family bed than to say one understands it.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Toyama
How can one understand something one hasn't practiced? Perhaps it is more accurate to say that one has heard about the family bed than to say one understands it.
Mary Ellen
*****
good point, Mary Ellen. I mean, I have heard about people who withhold stories and let children cry themselves out, but I cannot understand whatever would possess someone to subject their child to such treatment. I've never had the whatever it takes to do that to my children. They're young for such a short time -- at least to our perspective -- to theirs a night of crying alone is a huge chunk of time, and not quickly forgotten.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mary Ellen
*****
good point, Mary Ellen. I mean, I have heard about people who withhold stories and let children cry themselves out, but I cannot understand whatever would possess someone to subject their child to such treatment. I've never had the whatever it takes to do that to my children. They're young for such a short time -- at least to our perspective -- to theirs a night of crying alone is a huge chunk of time, and not quickly forgotten.
Sylvia
---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Photos - Get your photo on the big screen in Times Square
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]