for your critique
Ren
Lighten up, y'all.
I think it would be easier to lighten up if children weren't already the brunt of so much disrespect. I'm a bit full up on jokes that involve children...even analogies that are basically harmless. My hackles raise when I hear "training" in relationship to raising children. So far, my teen has not turned into a "cat" and I think how you treat children has a lot to do with how much they pull away from you and the way they display their independence.
I guess the analogy wouldn't bug me so much if the author wasn't so obviously playing into the biases that society holds against children. yuck.
I'm not some humorless blob. I get Blonde jokes sent to me occasionally, yeah, their funny (if untrue). I tend to like analogies that are goofy....but I didn't like this one. I don't like my children being compared to some loyal, slobbering dog I suppose.:)
They're intelligent, capable human beings that like me because I like them.
Ren
I think it would be easier to lighten up if children weren't already the brunt of so much disrespect. I'm a bit full up on jokes that involve children...even analogies that are basically harmless. My hackles raise when I hear "training" in relationship to raising children. So far, my teen has not turned into a "cat" and I think how you treat children has a lot to do with how much they pull away from you and the way they display their independence.
I guess the analogy wouldn't bug me so much if the author wasn't so obviously playing into the biases that society holds against children. yuck.
I'm not some humorless blob. I get Blonde jokes sent to me occasionally, yeah, their funny (if untrue). I tend to like analogies that are goofy....but I didn't like this one. I don't like my children being compared to some loyal, slobbering dog I suppose.:)
They're intelligent, capable human beings that like me because I like them.
Ren
Tia Leschke
>I think it also has to do with what you do when they do start to pull away.
>
>I think it would be easier to lighten up if children weren't already the
>brunt of so much disrespect. I'm a bit full up on jokes that involve
>children...even analogies that are basically harmless. My hackles raise
>when I hear "training" in relationship to raising children. So far, my
>teen has not turned into a "cat" and I think how you treat children has a
>lot to do with how much they pull away from you and the way they display
>their independence.
When Lars seemed to start pushing me away, I thought I should just go with
it, since he "needed to separate". I suspect it surprised and bothered him
that I let him go so easily, so to speak. I almost completely stopped
touching him, because he seemed to want me to. If I had it to do again, I
would have pulled him back a bit, gently, to let him know it wasn't me who
wanted the closeness to stop. I'm not sure I'm wording this right.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/28/2003 8:46:40 AM Central Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
My reaction is still "lighten up, y'all." :)
We already know most of society is this way towards children. Take it for
what's worth and don't get so "rabid" over it. ;)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> I think it would be easier to lighten up if children weren't already the~~~
> brunt of so much disrespect. I'm a bit full up on jokes that involve
> children...even analogies that are basically harmless. My hackles raise when I hear
> "training" in relationship to raising children. So far, my teen has not turned
> into a "cat" and I think how you treat children has a lot to do with how much
> they pull away from you and the way they display their independence.
> I guess the analogy wouldn't bug me so much if the author wasn't so
> obviously playing into the biases that society holds against children. yuck.
> I'm not some humorless blob. I get Blonde jokes sent to me occasionally,
> yeah, their funny (if untrue). I tend to like analogies that are goofy....but I
> didn't like this one. I don't like my children being compared to some loyal,
> slobbering dog I suppose.:)
> They're intelligent, capable human beings that like me because I like them
My reaction is still "lighten up, y'all." :)
We already know most of society is this way towards children. Take it for
what's worth and don't get so "rabid" over it. ;)
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/28/2003 12:00:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
tuckervill2@... writes:
-=-We already know most of society is this way towards children. Take it for
what's worth and don't get so "rabid" over it. ;) -=-
If nobody ever objectedto humor they deemed offensive, though, we'd still be
awash in Rastus and Liza jokes, and the kinds of nasty sexist stuff that
hasn't been around in polite company since the 1970's.
It's not worth having a heart attack about, but it might be worth seeing it
as something to avoid. I've had a link set up but haven't filled it in yet for
just such things (linked from http://sandradodd.com/life, something about
humor that demeans children.
I have one MUCH worse example (I'll put it up there at some point) which was
sent to me by a teacher in Salt Lake City. She never had children of her own,
never married (bad by Mormon standards) and adopted a set of three sisters
from Russia, proceeding to "raise" them (they were already 11-15) extremely
traditionally and strictly. The others on that list I knew were childless public
school teachers. I wrote an objected to the tone of the jokes, and a
couple of people on the list complained that I should lighten up or leave them
alone. They didn't want e-mail from me.
Huh. I didn't order child-insulting e-mail. They didn't see it as insulting
children, it seems; they saw it as sympathy for poor adults who have to DEAL
with children (that mysterious unreasonable other species).
The dog and cat thing was QUITE mild compared to other things I've seen.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tuckervill2@... writes:
-=-We already know most of society is this way towards children. Take it for
what's worth and don't get so "rabid" over it. ;) -=-
If nobody ever objectedto humor they deemed offensive, though, we'd still be
awash in Rastus and Liza jokes, and the kinds of nasty sexist stuff that
hasn't been around in polite company since the 1970's.
It's not worth having a heart attack about, but it might be worth seeing it
as something to avoid. I've had a link set up but haven't filled it in yet for
just such things (linked from http://sandradodd.com/life, something about
humor that demeans children.
I have one MUCH worse example (I'll put it up there at some point) which was
sent to me by a teacher in Salt Lake City. She never had children of her own,
never married (bad by Mormon standards) and adopted a set of three sisters
from Russia, proceeding to "raise" them (they were already 11-15) extremely
traditionally and strictly. The others on that list I knew were childless public
school teachers. I wrote an objected to the tone of the jokes, and a
couple of people on the list complained that I should lighten up or leave them
alone. They didn't want e-mail from me.
Huh. I didn't order child-insulting e-mail. They didn't see it as insulting
children, it seems; they saw it as sympathy for poor adults who have to DEAL
with children (that mysterious unreasonable other species).
The dog and cat thing was QUITE mild compared to other things I've seen.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>Actually I get sent a lot of sexist "humour" these days. But now it's
>If nobody ever objectedto humor they deemed offensive, though, we'd still be
>awash in Rastus and Liza jokes, and the kinds of nasty sexist stuff that
>hasn't been around in polite company since the 1970's.
usually anti-male. No better in my opinion.
Tia
Norma
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
<>Huh. I didn't order child-insulting e-mail. They didn't see it as
insulting children, it seems; they saw it as sympathy for poor adults
who have to DEAL with children (that mysterious unreasonable other
species). The dog and cat thing was QUITE mild compared to other
things I've seen.<>
Sandra:
One of the many things that pushed me out of teaching were the
tasteless jokes about children, men, women, ethnicities, animals, you
name it, heard in the teacher's lounge. And then there were the non-
jokes, the comments teachers made about students. Some were really
shocking to me. Since I was not known for keeping my mouth shut I
often did not make it past the first year of teaching. I remember
like it was yesterday the superintendent who informed me that he was
not renewing my contract because I "rocked the boat," and, he
said, "in our town we just don't need that!"
What had I done? When I discovered that the social studies and
history teachers were telling kids that the display they had just
seen, sent out by the state in a tractor-trailer rig displaying
blacks who were important to history and their accomplishments, was
just a pack of lies put out to appease the blacks, I decided to pull
the blue-eyed/brown-eyed thing in my classes. If you are not
familiar with this you can read about it at the PBS site on
Frontline: A Class Divided, about Jane Elliot's 1968 experiment:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/
It was very effective, created quite a ruckus among students, then
among teachers and parents. So effective that word got back to the
super that "that" English teacher, yes, the same one who was having
their sons write poetry, was "rocking the boat." In that little
haven of lily-whitedom the boat definitely needed rocking!
Of course that was 1969, the year after Jane Elliot first conducted
her experiement in Iowa. But I can't say that things look very
different now in the classrooms where I currently live. Racial
prejudice does seem to thrive heartily in the midwest. As do bigoted
jokes. I sub now and then, to keep my credentials active, but have
never regreted stepping away from teaching as a "profession."
Norma
Tia Leschke
>I worked as a teacher's aid for a while and saw much of the same. I didn't
>One of the many things that pushed me out of teaching were the
>tasteless jokes about children, men, women, ethnicities, animals, you
>name it, heard in the teacher's lounge. And then there were the non-
>jokes, the comments teachers made about students. Some were really
>shocking to me.
hear that many offensive jokes, but the comments about the kids . . .
yikes! I don't know how they thought that they were hiding their feelings
about the kids when they were in the classroom and just letting it out in
the teachers' lounge. The kids had to pick up on their feelings. Ugh!
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/29/03 10:13:41 AM, leschke@... writes:
<< I worked as a teacher's aid for a while and saw much of the same. I didn't
hear that many offensive jokes, but the comments about the kids . . .
yikes! >>
I taught where I had gone to school, and I really liked most of my teachers,
so maybe my experience isn't typical.
The ethnicity stuff wasn't a problem at our school. I heard the most
offensive jokes from relatives in Texas when I would go home for reunions. Horrible
people. Casually bigotted and SO unlike the people in Northern New Mexico I
was used to.
Sometimes kids were badmouthed in the teacher's lounge, but some of the
cuttingest comments were about parents and other teachers. We had a couple of
looney teachers. Kids knew it, and other teachers knew it. Loons. Esther
Pfiester. Probably if her parents had named her better she'd've done better. Poor
thing. She hated pubescent boys. Maybe one had attacked her one time.
That's my best guess, but she would never in a million years have discussed it
with me. I would trade her a smaller pre-pubescent boy for one of her
"trouble makers" (meaning gotten-tall, voice-changed, hairy boys).
She should have been teaching 7th grade instead of 9th, but there it was.
One kid was a bully and a liar. When he set fire to a poster in the gym
right in front of me, his dad came to school to discuss it. The dad was JUST LIKE
HIM. He lied too. He weasled and wiggled "Did you SEE him light the
lighter?" "No, I saw him look around too see whether anyone was watching, stand
facing the door a bit, and walk away from a flaming poster, and he had the lighter
in his pocket." "But you didn't see him set it on fire?"
Dumbass.
So we laughed later, and said "Well, that's where he gets it," and decided it
wasn't going to be worth appealing to the dad to help us out if there were
problems.
But another thing I remember happening LOTS and lots of times was one of us
telling the other teachers about something we knew about a kid that the others
didn't know. That his mom was in the hospital for a mental breakdown, or that
a girl had broken up with her boyfriend so we should give her a break for
another week or so, or that one kid who seemed mousy had done something
brilliant. We shared hopeful stories and compassionate stuff.
Sandra
<< I worked as a teacher's aid for a while and saw much of the same. I didn't
hear that many offensive jokes, but the comments about the kids . . .
yikes! >>
I taught where I had gone to school, and I really liked most of my teachers,
so maybe my experience isn't typical.
The ethnicity stuff wasn't a problem at our school. I heard the most
offensive jokes from relatives in Texas when I would go home for reunions. Horrible
people. Casually bigotted and SO unlike the people in Northern New Mexico I
was used to.
Sometimes kids were badmouthed in the teacher's lounge, but some of the
cuttingest comments were about parents and other teachers. We had a couple of
looney teachers. Kids knew it, and other teachers knew it. Loons. Esther
Pfiester. Probably if her parents had named her better she'd've done better. Poor
thing. She hated pubescent boys. Maybe one had attacked her one time.
That's my best guess, but she would never in a million years have discussed it
with me. I would trade her a smaller pre-pubescent boy for one of her
"trouble makers" (meaning gotten-tall, voice-changed, hairy boys).
She should have been teaching 7th grade instead of 9th, but there it was.
One kid was a bully and a liar. When he set fire to a poster in the gym
right in front of me, his dad came to school to discuss it. The dad was JUST LIKE
HIM. He lied too. He weasled and wiggled "Did you SEE him light the
lighter?" "No, I saw him look around too see whether anyone was watching, stand
facing the door a bit, and walk away from a flaming poster, and he had the lighter
in his pocket." "But you didn't see him set it on fire?"
Dumbass.
So we laughed later, and said "Well, that's where he gets it," and decided it
wasn't going to be worth appealing to the dad to help us out if there were
problems.
But another thing I remember happening LOTS and lots of times was one of us
telling the other teachers about something we knew about a kid that the others
didn't know. That his mom was in the hospital for a mental breakdown, or that
a girl had broken up with her boyfriend so we should give her a break for
another week or so, or that one kid who seemed mousy had done something
brilliant. We shared hopeful stories and compassionate stuff.
Sandra
Nancy Wooton
on 11/29/03 8:52 AM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:
This is a site designed to help teachers deal with discipline problems in
the classroom; see how children are labeled by the people hired to help.
Nancy
--
Rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education.
-Chuang-Tzu, philosopher (4th c. BCE)
>Take a look at http://www.disciplinehelp.com/behindex/default.htm
>>
>> One of the many things that pushed me out of teaching were the
>> tasteless jokes about children, men, women, ethnicities, animals, you
>> name it, heard in the teacher's lounge. And then there were the non-
>> jokes, the comments teachers made about students. Some were really
>> shocking to me.
>
> I worked as a teacher's aid for a while and saw much of the same. I didn't
> hear that many offensive jokes, but the comments about the kids . . .
> yikes! I don't know how they thought that they were hiding their feelings
> about the kids when they were in the classroom and just letting it out in
> the teachers' lounge. The kids had to pick up on their feelings. Ugh!
> Tia
>
This is a site designed to help teachers deal with discipline problems in
the classroom; see how children are labeled by the people hired to help.
Nancy
--
Rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education.
-Chuang-Tzu, philosopher (4th c. BCE)
Norma
--- In [email protected], Nancy Wooton
<ikonstitcher@c...> wrote:
<>Take a look at http://www.disciplinehelp.com/behindex/default.htm
This is a site designed to help teachers deal with discipline
problems in the classroom; see how children are labeled by the people
hired to help.<>
Nancy:
Thank you so much for this site. This is exactly what I was talking
about. The children were marked, they were marked by one teacher and
their marking was passed along to the other teachers. So the child
could not be who he or she was, but in the eyes of the teachers the
child was marked.
Today in the district where I sub they do it differently. In one
school where I subbed they hand you a clipboard first thing. On the
clipboard are the names of all the elementary children in your
class. Next to their names are columns for each day of the week,
each week of the marking period. At the bottom of the sheet are 10
numbered items, demerits, 10 things for which the teacher must write
a number if the child is caught doing these things. If any child
gets 4 or more demerits in a day he or she must go to "detention"
after school. And if he or she gets 5 or more "detentions" in one
marking period then they are labeled as chronic problems and further
steps are taken to reprimand and punish them. So now they are
labeled on little clipboards as "bad" kids for doing "bad" things.
Over 50% of the students in some classes go to "detention." Shows
you how well that system works!
And just what are these terrible offenses that these elementary
students are committing? Talking. Getting out of his or her seat.
Going to the pencil sharpener. Disobeying the teacher. Leaving the
room without permission. Not sitting quietly in his or her seat,
doing what they were told. And so on. Terrible offenses!!!!!
My husband, a ten year veteran corrections officer in a state pen,
said that the language was exactly that used in prison systems. So
these children, from age 3 on (Head Start), are being labeled
as "bad," as offenders, as needing "detention." To me this makes the
schools and the teachers recruiters and trainers for the FFA, the
Future Felons of America. For if you tell children repeatedly how
bad they are, they will surely someday prove you right. By the way,
did I say that this particular school was 99% black? I guess I
forgot to mention that. And then we wonder why so many end up in
jail or prison later? I wonder how so many escape and manage to stay
out of jail or prison. I think it's amazing that only about 25% are
incarcerated when far more have been programmed from a very early age
for that fate.
Surely all schools are not like this, but even if only one is like
this, it is one too many. And, sadly, I am sure that this is not the
only one.
Norma
Rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education.
-Chuang-Tzu, philosopher (4th c. BCE)(Perfect, Nancy!)
<ikonstitcher@c...> wrote:
<>Take a look at http://www.disciplinehelp.com/behindex/default.htm
This is a site designed to help teachers deal with discipline
problems in the classroom; see how children are labeled by the people
hired to help.<>
Nancy:
Thank you so much for this site. This is exactly what I was talking
about. The children were marked, they were marked by one teacher and
their marking was passed along to the other teachers. So the child
could not be who he or she was, but in the eyes of the teachers the
child was marked.
Today in the district where I sub they do it differently. In one
school where I subbed they hand you a clipboard first thing. On the
clipboard are the names of all the elementary children in your
class. Next to their names are columns for each day of the week,
each week of the marking period. At the bottom of the sheet are 10
numbered items, demerits, 10 things for which the teacher must write
a number if the child is caught doing these things. If any child
gets 4 or more demerits in a day he or she must go to "detention"
after school. And if he or she gets 5 or more "detentions" in one
marking period then they are labeled as chronic problems and further
steps are taken to reprimand and punish them. So now they are
labeled on little clipboards as "bad" kids for doing "bad" things.
Over 50% of the students in some classes go to "detention." Shows
you how well that system works!
And just what are these terrible offenses that these elementary
students are committing? Talking. Getting out of his or her seat.
Going to the pencil sharpener. Disobeying the teacher. Leaving the
room without permission. Not sitting quietly in his or her seat,
doing what they were told. And so on. Terrible offenses!!!!!
My husband, a ten year veteran corrections officer in a state pen,
said that the language was exactly that used in prison systems. So
these children, from age 3 on (Head Start), are being labeled
as "bad," as offenders, as needing "detention." To me this makes the
schools and the teachers recruiters and trainers for the FFA, the
Future Felons of America. For if you tell children repeatedly how
bad they are, they will surely someday prove you right. By the way,
did I say that this particular school was 99% black? I guess I
forgot to mention that. And then we wonder why so many end up in
jail or prison later? I wonder how so many escape and manage to stay
out of jail or prison. I think it's amazing that only about 25% are
incarcerated when far more have been programmed from a very early age
for that fate.
Surely all schools are not like this, but even if only one is like
this, it is one too many. And, sadly, I am sure that this is not the
only one.
Norma
Rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education.
-Chuang-Tzu, philosopher (4th c. BCE)(Perfect, Nancy!)
sonja wolf
OMG!! GEEZ this is absolutely outrageous..I have sooo many comments about
this site swirling around in my head I dont know where to begin!!! after I
'goosfabah' awhile I will..those of you who have seen the movie 'Anger
Management' can relate : )
Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are
always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free!
http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
this site swirling around in my head I dont know where to begin!!! after I
'goosfabah' awhile I will..those of you who have seen the movie 'Anger
Management' can relate : )
>From: Nancy Wooton <ikonstitcher@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: for your critique
>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 16:59:01 -0800
>
>on 11/29/03 8:52 AM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:
>
> >
> >>
> >> One of the many things that pushed me out of teaching were the
> >> tasteless jokes about children, men, women, ethnicities, animals, you
> >> name it, heard in the teacher's lounge. And then there were the non-
> >> jokes, the comments teachers made about students. Some were really
> >> shocking to me.
> >
> > I worked as a teacher's aid for a while and saw much of the same. I
>didn't
> > hear that many offensive jokes, but the comments about the kids . . .
> > yikes! I don't know how they thought that they were hiding their
>feelings
> > about the kids when they were in the classroom and just letting it out
>in
> > the teachers' lounge. The kids had to pick up on their feelings. Ugh!
> > Tia
> >
>
>Take a look at http://www.disciplinehelp.com/behindex/default.htm
>
>This is a site designed to help teachers deal with discipline problems in
>the classroom; see how children are labeled by the people hired to help.
>
>Nancy
>
>
>--
>Rewards and punishments are the lowest form of education.
>-Chuang-Tzu, philosopher (4th c. BCE)
>
Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are
always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free!
http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/3/03 2:42:12 AM, blossom_1964@... writes:
<< I have sooo many comments about
this site swirling around in my head I dont know where to begin!!! >>
It's okay not to discuss school-related sites. here.
It's really best to just read or not read them on the side, process within
yourself how that will help you unschool, and then tell us your final thoughts.
Let's stick to what will help our own kids when we can. I know we get off
topic naturally, but then we try to come back.
Sandra
<< I have sooo many comments about
this site swirling around in my head I dont know where to begin!!! >>
It's okay not to discuss school-related sites. here.
It's really best to just read or not read them on the side, process within
yourself how that will help you unschool, and then tell us your final thoughts.
Let's stick to what will help our own kids when we can. I know we get off
topic naturally, but then we try to come back.
Sandra