[AlwaysLearning] For Your Critique
Nanci Kuykendall
Has anybody else seen this piece below? It was
recently circulated on a local homeschooling list I am
on (not in CA) and I didn't really didn't want to
start a firestorm by commenting on it there. I am
curious what the take is by this thoroughly
unschooling crowd.
For my part, I have definate opinions about it, and
they are not very favorable. Maybe I am taking this
the wrong way, or maybe I just need to lighten up.
What are some thoughts from all of you?
Nanci K.
* /The Cat Years/ from the San Francisco Chronicle by
Adair Lara: *
*I** just realized that while children are dogs --
loyal and
affectionate-- teenagers are cats. It's so easy to be
a dog owner. You
feed it, train it, boss it around. It puts its head on
your knee and
gazes at you as if you were a Rembrandt painting. It
bounds indoors
with enthusiasm when you call it.*
*Then, around age 13, your adoring little puppy turns
into a big old
cat. When you tell it to come inside, it looks amazed,
as if wondering
who died and made you emperor. Instead of dogging
your footsteps, it
disappears. You won't see it again until it gets
hungry-then it pauses
on its sprint through the kitchen long enough to turn
its nose up at
whatever you're serving. When you reach out to ruffle
its head, in that
old affectionate gesture, it twists away from you,
then gives you a
blank stare, as if trying to remember where It has
seen you before.*
*You, not realizing that the dog is now a cat, think
something must be
desperately wrong with it. It seems so antisocial, so
distant, sort of
depressed. It won't go on family outings.*
*Since you're the one who raised it, taught it to
fetch and stay and sit
on command, you assume that you did something wrong.
Flooded with guilt
and fear, you redouble your efforts to make your pet
behave. Only now
you're dealing with a cat, so everything that worked
before now produces
the opposite of the desired result. Call it, and it
runs away. Tell it
to sit, and it jumps on the counter. The more you go
toward it,
wringing your hands, the more it moves away. *
*Instead of continuing to act like a dog owner, you
can learn to behave
like a cat owner. Put a dish of food near the door,
and let it come to
you. But remember that a cat needs your help and
affection too. Sit
still, and it will come, seeking that warm, comforting
lap it has not
entirely forgotten.*
*One day, your grown-up child will walk into the
kitchen, give you a big
kiss and say, "You've been on your feet all day. Let
me get those dishes
for you." Then you'll realize your cat is a dog again.
recently circulated on a local homeschooling list I am
on (not in CA) and I didn't really didn't want to
start a firestorm by commenting on it there. I am
curious what the take is by this thoroughly
unschooling crowd.
For my part, I have definate opinions about it, and
they are not very favorable. Maybe I am taking this
the wrong way, or maybe I just need to lighten up.
What are some thoughts from all of you?
Nanci K.
* /The Cat Years/ from the San Francisco Chronicle by
Adair Lara: *
*I** just realized that while children are dogs --
loyal and
affectionate-- teenagers are cats. It's so easy to be
a dog owner. You
feed it, train it, boss it around. It puts its head on
your knee and
gazes at you as if you were a Rembrandt painting. It
bounds indoors
with enthusiasm when you call it.*
*Then, around age 13, your adoring little puppy turns
into a big old
cat. When you tell it to come inside, it looks amazed,
as if wondering
who died and made you emperor. Instead of dogging
your footsteps, it
disappears. You won't see it again until it gets
hungry-then it pauses
on its sprint through the kitchen long enough to turn
its nose up at
whatever you're serving. When you reach out to ruffle
its head, in that
old affectionate gesture, it twists away from you,
then gives you a
blank stare, as if trying to remember where It has
seen you before.*
*You, not realizing that the dog is now a cat, think
something must be
desperately wrong with it. It seems so antisocial, so
distant, sort of
depressed. It won't go on family outings.*
*Since you're the one who raised it, taught it to
fetch and stay and sit
on command, you assume that you did something wrong.
Flooded with guilt
and fear, you redouble your efforts to make your pet
behave. Only now
you're dealing with a cat, so everything that worked
before now produces
the opposite of the desired result. Call it, and it
runs away. Tell it
to sit, and it jumps on the counter. The more you go
toward it,
wringing your hands, the more it moves away. *
*Instead of continuing to act like a dog owner, you
can learn to behave
like a cat owner. Put a dish of food near the door,
and let it come to
you. But remember that a cat needs your help and
affection too. Sit
still, and it will come, seeking that warm, comforting
lap it has not
entirely forgotten.*
*One day, your grown-up child will walk into the
kitchen, give you a big
kiss and say, "You've been on your feet all day. Let
me get those dishes
for you." Then you'll realize your cat is a dog again.
Jason & Stephanie
Has anybody else seen this piece below? It was
recently circulated on a local homeschooling list I am
on (not in CA) and I didn't really didn't want to
start a firestorm by commenting on it there. I am
curious what the take is by this thoroughly
unschooling crowd.
For my part, I have definate opinions about it, and
they are not very favorable. Maybe I am taking this
the wrong way, or maybe I just need to lighten up.
What are some thoughts from all of you?
Nanci K.
* /The Cat Years/ from the San Francisco Chronicle by
Adair Lara: *
*********Nanci, I don't think this is funny at all and I have a good sense of humor. Ihave not heard of who wrote this but my kids are not like "dogs" at all. I suppose it would be easy if they were.
Stephanie
mom to 4 ages 8,5,4,17 months
P.S. this is worth a firestorm, it is tasteless IMO
<snip>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
recently circulated on a local homeschooling list I am
on (not in CA) and I didn't really didn't want to
start a firestorm by commenting on it there. I am
curious what the take is by this thoroughly
unschooling crowd.
For my part, I have definate opinions about it, and
they are not very favorable. Maybe I am taking this
the wrong way, or maybe I just need to lighten up.
What are some thoughts from all of you?
Nanci K.
* /The Cat Years/ from the San Francisco Chronicle by
Adair Lara: *
*********Nanci, I don't think this is funny at all and I have a good sense of humor. Ihave not heard of who wrote this but my kids are not like "dogs" at all. I suppose it would be easy if they were.
Stephanie
mom to 4 ages 8,5,4,17 months
P.S. this is worth a firestorm, it is tasteless IMO
<snip>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 11/26/03 10:56 PM, Nanci Kuykendall at aisliin@... wrote:
won't turn into cats when they're teens.
If we treat them like humans all through their days, they'll act like
humans.
Joyce
> Then, around age 13, your adoring little puppy turns into a big old cat.I think if children aren't treated like dogs when they're young, then they
won't turn into cats when they're teens.
If we treat them like humans all through their days, they'll act like
humans.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/26/2003 10:21:58 PM Central Standard Time,
aisliin@... writes:
For my part, I have definate opinions about it, and
they are not very favorable. Maybe I am taking this
the wrong way, or maybe I just need to lighten up.
What are some thoughts from all of you?
~~~
As a mother of 2 grown children, I can see a LOT of truth in it. The oldest
one wasn't unschooled at all. He helps with the dishes. :) The next one was
unschooled from the age of 11. It's the worst with that one, but that could
be just because we're going through it RIGHT NOW.
However, I do know of completely unschooled kids who had/have some of the
same traits my current teenager has. I suspect it will be less intense with my
youngest, always unschooled. But they have the same kind of hormonal changes
to go through, separation from mom and independence pains, and I hold no
illusions that it will be all peace and light with him, either.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aisliin@... writes:
For my part, I have definate opinions about it, and
they are not very favorable. Maybe I am taking this
the wrong way, or maybe I just need to lighten up.
What are some thoughts from all of you?
~~~
As a mother of 2 grown children, I can see a LOT of truth in it. The oldest
one wasn't unschooled at all. He helps with the dishes. :) The next one was
unschooled from the age of 11. It's the worst with that one, but that could
be just because we're going through it RIGHT NOW.
However, I do know of completely unschooled kids who had/have some of the
same traits my current teenager has. I suspect it will be less intense with my
youngest, always unschooled. But they have the same kind of hormonal changes
to go through, separation from mom and independence pains, and I hold no
illusions that it will be all peace and light with him, either.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/27/2003 6:09:26 AM Central Standard Time,
fetteroll@... writes:
I think if children aren't treated like dogs when they're young, then they
won't turn into cats when they're teens.
If we treat them like humans all through their days, they'll act like
humans.
~~~
Lighten up, y'all.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fetteroll@... writes:
I think if children aren't treated like dogs when they're young, then they
won't turn into cats when they're teens.
If we treat them like humans all through their days, they'll act like
humans.
~~~
Lighten up, y'all.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/26/03 9:22:05 PM, aisliin@... writes:
<< "You've been on your feet all day. Let
me get those dishes
for you." Then you'll realize your cat is a dog again. >>
The end bugged me the most.
In one way, it doesn't bother me at all.
Analogies are meant to be disposable, not to make connections that last
forever.
So as an analogy, it's kind of cute, but only works when people are familiar
with all the cat/dog comparisons and jokes.
And more than that, I think it's a joke that's best when all these conditions
are met:
the reader's familiar with cat/dog joke tradition
the reader has owned cats and dogs
the reader has children who have gone to school and become sullen
the reader accepts that the relationship between children and parents
"naturally" deteriorates
and the reader doesn't mind humor that treats children as less than whole.
But as just an analogy, it doesn't bother me personally so much. Maybe it
all came from that twisting away thing ("When you reach out to ruffle its head,
in that old affectionate gesture, it twists away from you"), which I have
experienced with both Kirby and Marty and which I think is as natural a part of
growing up as the desire to be with/on/attached to the mom.
And for families which are not swift at accepting changes or understanding
that teens truly do have some developmental realities, it might be a
once-removed and useful way for them to get AN idea ("the" idea seems wrong, but it's a
parallel idea that might make sense to them) and stop expecting teens to be
like little kids. They're not.
Though I didn't train my kids to "sit and stay," my dog does it and it's
really useful. And it's true my cat's don't. We tried sit and stay outside
Kinko's once, though, and the dog went home (block and a half), through alleys,
only crossing one residential street, but it scared us badly. We thought she
would stay because there are glass windows and my friend Annaliese was with her
who is her favorite human on earth. So I add THAT to my personal analogy.
Even dogs won't always do what you think they'll do, so the best thing is to
live WITH that other being (dog or chid) directly, close enough to see and touch
and feel their feelings when you can.
So it the cat/dog thing doesn't offend me deeply, but I'm glad I live in such
a way that it isn't a positive addition to my idea-base.
Sandra
<< "You've been on your feet all day. Let
me get those dishes
for you." Then you'll realize your cat is a dog again. >>
The end bugged me the most.
In one way, it doesn't bother me at all.
Analogies are meant to be disposable, not to make connections that last
forever.
So as an analogy, it's kind of cute, but only works when people are familiar
with all the cat/dog comparisons and jokes.
And more than that, I think it's a joke that's best when all these conditions
are met:
the reader's familiar with cat/dog joke tradition
the reader has owned cats and dogs
the reader has children who have gone to school and become sullen
the reader accepts that the relationship between children and parents
"naturally" deteriorates
and the reader doesn't mind humor that treats children as less than whole.
But as just an analogy, it doesn't bother me personally so much. Maybe it
all came from that twisting away thing ("When you reach out to ruffle its head,
in that old affectionate gesture, it twists away from you"), which I have
experienced with both Kirby and Marty and which I think is as natural a part of
growing up as the desire to be with/on/attached to the mom.
And for families which are not swift at accepting changes or understanding
that teens truly do have some developmental realities, it might be a
once-removed and useful way for them to get AN idea ("the" idea seems wrong, but it's a
parallel idea that might make sense to them) and stop expecting teens to be
like little kids. They're not.
Though I didn't train my kids to "sit and stay," my dog does it and it's
really useful. And it's true my cat's don't. We tried sit and stay outside
Kinko's once, though, and the dog went home (block and a half), through alleys,
only crossing one residential street, but it scared us badly. We thought she
would stay because there are glass windows and my friend Annaliese was with her
who is her favorite human on earth. So I add THAT to my personal analogy.
Even dogs won't always do what you think they'll do, so the best thing is to
live WITH that other being (dog or chid) directly, close enough to see and touch
and feel their feelings when you can.
So it the cat/dog thing doesn't offend me deeply, but I'm glad I live in such
a way that it isn't a positive addition to my idea-base.
Sandra
Shyrley
Fetteroll wrote:
kids see, read or do. She couldn't get it.
Means she'll sped the next few years reading lots of books she'd rather
now and watching films twice.
I hear her kids saying all the *bad* things they will do as soon as they
are out from under control :-(
S
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>on 11/26/03 10:56 PM, Nanci Kuykendall at aisliin@... wrote:I tried explaining this concept to a friend who censors everything her
>
>
>
>>Then, around age 13, your adoring little puppy turns into a big old cat.
>>
>>
>
>I think if children aren't treated like dogs when they're young, then they
>won't turn into cats when they're teens.
>
>If we treat them like humans all through their days, they'll act like
>humans.
>
>Joyce
>
>
>
kids see, read or do. She couldn't get it.
Means she'll sped the next few years reading lots of books she'd rather
now and watching films twice.
I hear her kids saying all the *bad* things they will do as soon as they
are out from under control :-(
S
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Norma
--- In [email protected]:
<>If we treat them like humans all through their days, they'll act
like humans.<>
My kittlin' has been very cat-like most of her life. Certainly never
like a puppy-dog. But at 16 we have been dealing with hormonal
changes, to be sure. And we see this in so many teens around us.
Her friends who for the most part go to school are changing, too, and
their rebellion, in some anyway, tends to be more acute: lying to
their parents, smoking, drinking, doing drugs, having sex.
Her body keeps changing, shifting and changing. These changes might
not be so noticeable in every teen, maybe just a change in jean's
size. But in one who sails around the ice rink on a 1/4" blade of
steel, at high speed, with one leg up above her head, or who hurls
herself through space torquing multiple times before landing on that
1/4" of steel, or who spins in a blur then stops on a dime, these
subtle changes can be devastating.
Her hips are spreading, a perfectly normal happening in girls as they
mature. But this changes the fine balance necessary for a figure
skater to do the things she has been training to do for 9 years. Now
simple things have become more difficult. The jump she was doing so
easily 6 months ago is now lost, has to be relearned. When throwing
her body through space every subtle little change in body fat, bone
shifting, muscle mass, etc., is noticeable, throws off her balance.
And her moods can be very unpredictable. Not terrible. Not
something we can't live with or adjust to, but not the same as they
used to be. The girl who had utmost confidence, who sailed around
the ice like the honored princess, is now insecure, unsure of
herself, afraid she will fail. Her hair is awful. Her face is a
mess. She has no clothes to wear. What happened?
I see part of this as preparation for having the impetus to leave
home. Otherwise it is awfully tempting for her to just see herself
as staying home with Mom and Dad forever. So the struggle plays out
in our lives as she wrestles with it inside herself. She spent last
summer mostly away from home, attending college, living on campus,
going to several one week and two-week symposia and conferences far
away. So she is split. One part wants to stay and one part wants to
break away. And we try to cope and try to smooth the way as much as
possible for whatever decision she makes.
But we are affected by the struggle. Sometimes it hurts so much.
Hurts her. Hurts us. But just as quickly she turns around and,
indeed, cuddles in our laps, wants to be held and petted. Is it
easier this way, easier to have parents who can go with the flow?
Who can ride the hormone-driven emotional roller coaster with her? I
don't know. But it's much too late to turn back now. Will let you
know in a few years. Meanwhile I guess it's time to learn to like
roller coaster rides.
Mind you, every teen may not face the same challenges, the same
physical changes. But some will, and for some, no matter how much
they love us, or we them, this is still a difficult time.
Norma
<>If we treat them like humans all through their days, they'll act
like humans.<>
My kittlin' has been very cat-like most of her life. Certainly never
like a puppy-dog. But at 16 we have been dealing with hormonal
changes, to be sure. And we see this in so many teens around us.
Her friends who for the most part go to school are changing, too, and
their rebellion, in some anyway, tends to be more acute: lying to
their parents, smoking, drinking, doing drugs, having sex.
Her body keeps changing, shifting and changing. These changes might
not be so noticeable in every teen, maybe just a change in jean's
size. But in one who sails around the ice rink on a 1/4" blade of
steel, at high speed, with one leg up above her head, or who hurls
herself through space torquing multiple times before landing on that
1/4" of steel, or who spins in a blur then stops on a dime, these
subtle changes can be devastating.
Her hips are spreading, a perfectly normal happening in girls as they
mature. But this changes the fine balance necessary for a figure
skater to do the things she has been training to do for 9 years. Now
simple things have become more difficult. The jump she was doing so
easily 6 months ago is now lost, has to be relearned. When throwing
her body through space every subtle little change in body fat, bone
shifting, muscle mass, etc., is noticeable, throws off her balance.
And her moods can be very unpredictable. Not terrible. Not
something we can't live with or adjust to, but not the same as they
used to be. The girl who had utmost confidence, who sailed around
the ice like the honored princess, is now insecure, unsure of
herself, afraid she will fail. Her hair is awful. Her face is a
mess. She has no clothes to wear. What happened?
I see part of this as preparation for having the impetus to leave
home. Otherwise it is awfully tempting for her to just see herself
as staying home with Mom and Dad forever. So the struggle plays out
in our lives as she wrestles with it inside herself. She spent last
summer mostly away from home, attending college, living on campus,
going to several one week and two-week symposia and conferences far
away. So she is split. One part wants to stay and one part wants to
break away. And we try to cope and try to smooth the way as much as
possible for whatever decision she makes.
But we are affected by the struggle. Sometimes it hurts so much.
Hurts her. Hurts us. But just as quickly she turns around and,
indeed, cuddles in our laps, wants to be held and petted. Is it
easier this way, easier to have parents who can go with the flow?
Who can ride the hormone-driven emotional roller coaster with her? I
don't know. But it's much too late to turn back now. Will let you
know in a few years. Meanwhile I guess it's time to learn to like
roller coaster rides.
Mind you, every teen may not face the same challenges, the same
physical changes. But some will, and for some, no matter how much
they love us, or we them, this is still a difficult time.
Norma
[email protected]
The author had a really hard time parenting her teen - she lives in San
Franciso and wrote a book about it. I think she's speaking about her own
experience, and clearly she parented differently than people here did,
and do. I could see some basis for the anaology, but it also made me
sad...
Dar
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:07:33 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
Franciso and wrote a book about it. I think she's speaking about her own
experience, and clearly she parented differently than people here did,
and do. I could see some basis for the anaology, but it also made me
sad...
Dar
On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 10:07:33 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
>
> In a message dated 11/26/03 9:22:05 PM, aisliin@... writes:
>
> << "You've been on your feet all day. Let
> me get those dishes
> for you." Then you'll realize your cat is a dog again. >>
>
> The end bugged me the most.
>
> In one way, it doesn't bother me at all.
> Analogies are meant to be disposable, not to make connections that
> last
> forever.
> So as an analogy, it's kind of cute, but only works when people are
> familiar
> with all the cat/dog comparisons and jokes.
>
> And more than that, I think it's a joke that's best when all these
> conditions
> are met:
> the reader's familiar with cat/dog joke tradition
> the reader has owned cats and dogs
> the reader has children who have gone to school and become sullen
> the reader accepts that the relationship between children and
> parents
> "naturally" deteriorates
> and the reader doesn't mind humor that treats children as less than
> whole.
>
>
> But as just an analogy, it doesn't bother me personally so much.
> Maybe it
> all came from that twisting away thing ("When you reach out to
> ruffle its head,
> in that old affectionate gesture, it twists away from you"), which I
> have
> experienced with both Kirby and Marty and which I think is as
> natural a part of
> growing up as the desire to be with/on/attached to the mom.
>
> And for families which are not swift at accepting changes or
> understanding
> that teens truly do have some developmental realities, it might be a
>
> once-removed and useful way for them to get AN idea ("the" idea
> seems wrong, but it's a
> parallel idea that might make sense to them) and stop expecting
> teens to be
> like little kids. They're not.
>
> Though I didn't train my kids to "sit and stay," my dog does it and
> it's
> really useful. And it's true my cat's don't. We tried sit and stay
> outside
> Kinko's once, though, and the dog went home (block and a half),
> through alleys,
> only crossing one residential street, but it scared us badly. We
> thought she
> would stay because there are glass windows and my friend Annaliese
> was with her
> who is her favorite human on earth. So I add THAT to my personal
> analogy.
> Even dogs won't always do what you think they'll do, so the best
> thing is to
> live WITH that other being (dog or chid) directly, close enough to
> see and touch
> and feel their feelings when you can.
>
> So it the cat/dog thing doesn't offend me deeply, but I'm glad I
> live in such
> a way that it isn't a positive addition to my idea-base.
>
> Sandra
>
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